1. Anybody who thought this was going to be an easy win is a... never mind. Not going to call names.
2. IU part II Motivated home team that was quicker at nearly every position.
3. Markus couldn't shoot. The rest of the team was not able to pick him up.
4. Sam being a non-factor offensively until late was a double whammy.
5. Of course SJU got the calls. They were the aggressor in their bandbox gym. Officiating usually favors the aggressive home team.
6. Rowsey is gone. But most teams are still going to post up against Markus. And it doesn't matter who he guards, they will look to make him defend down low. Smart coaching.
7. SJU spread out MU's defense, took away the help, and then either drove or shot the 3 well. All of the schemes in the world do not allow help on a 5-out set. Have to have the lateral quickness to defend the dribble one on one. MU is improved defensively, but are still not quick.
8. Also got out-quicked (or out-hustled) on the boards.
9. I have never been on the fire Wojo bandwagon, and am not now. I also did not give in to what I viewed as irrational exuberance forecasting MU's conference record. MU has now played two road games and gotten rolled twice. I think that IU and SJU are both very good teams, particularly at home. Both times, MU looked slow and lost. Every conference road game is tough. MU is going to have to figure out how to bring the same energy and shooting they have at Fiserv to these hostile venues. I predicted 12-6. I am still feeling that.
10. All that is left to do is learn from this.
11. The most important game is the next one.
What will we have learned? That we can't play on the road?
If conference championships are won on the road, I'm changing my pick for Big East champ to Pat Driscoll.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 01, 2019, 08:02:04 PM
What will we have learned? That we can't play on the road?
Can't play on the road YET. Another step in the process.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2019, 07:59:07 PM
1. Anybody who thought this was going to be an easy win is a... never mind. Not going to call names.
2. IU part II Motivated home team that was quicker at nearly every position.
3. Markus couldn't shoot. The rest of the team was not able to pick him up.
4. Sam being a non-factor offensively until late was a double whammy.
5. Of course SJU got the calls. They were the aggressor in their bandbox gym. Officiating usually favors the aggressive home team.
6. Rowsey is gone. But most teams are still going to post up against Markus. And it doesn't matter who he guards, they will look to make him defend down low. Smart coaching.
7. SJU spread out MU's defense, took away the help, and then either drove or shot the 3 well. All of the schemes in the world do not allow help on a 5-out set. Have to have the lateral quickness to defend the dribble one on one. MU is improved defensively, but are still not quick.
8. Also got out-quicked (or out-hustled) on the boards.
9. I have never been on the fire Wojo bandwagon, and am not now. I also did not give in to what I viewed as irrational exuberance forecasting MU's conference record. MU has now played two road games and gotten rolled twice. I think that IU and SJU are both very good teams, particularly at home. Both times, MU looked slow and lost. Every conference road game is tough. MU is going to have to figure out how to bring the same energy and shooting they have at Fiserv to these hostile venues. I predicted 12-6. I am still feeling that.
10. All that is left to do is learn from this.
11. The most important game is the next one.
Can't argue with a single word of this. This is the type of team MU still doesn't match up well against.
The way this team fluctuates from dominating to clueless is bizarre. I get that playing on the road is tough, but home court advantage is usually only worth about 3-5 points. Why is it worth 20 for us? Doesn't make sense.
Outcoached on D by an offensive guy Mullin
In that mess, I was glad to see Woj switch to a zone, if nothing else to switch up the tempo and take St Johns out of their rhythm. It worked for 5-6 straight possessions, MU made a brief run. I think against an overly aggressive team like the Johnnie's, you have to do that.
I think MU beats them up pretty good in Milwaukee, but MU better start learning to win away from Fiserv.
Two steps forward, one step back. Have protected home court, but spanked on road again. I didn't think SJU would do that.
Markus had two NBA body players and good defenders in Simon and Heron guarding him, mainly Simon. Height advantages at 6ft 5 each showed tonight.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2019, 08:02:56 PM
Can't play on the road YET. Another step in the process.
Process? Whatever we got blown out. Move on—one night, tough gym, road, etc. But don't pretend like this was part of some plan—this isn't buzz's goofy sweet 16 test.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 01, 2019, 08:04:40 PM
The way this team fluctuates from dominating to clueless is bizarre. I get that playing on the road is tough, but home court advantage is usually only worth about 3-5 points. Why is it worth 20 for us? Doesn't make sense.
It isn't just a home / road thing. SJU and IU are athletic teams filled with players who can switch every screen without losing much of a beat, and who can beat MU off the dribble with proper spacing.
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2019, 07:59:07 PM
7. SJU spread out MU's defense, took away the help, and then either drove or shot the 3 well. All of the schemes in the world do not allow help on a 5-out set. Have to have the lateral quickness to defend the dribble one on one. MU is improved defensively, but are still not quick.
I think we will see a lot of games where STJ does NOT shoot the ball well. I don't think their team is all that. I think it was a perfect storm of sorts for them. It's easy and en Vogue for some to say the refs didn't effect this game, but they certainly did.
Ran into a hungry team that shot lights out, and we were off. I suspect this will be one of the better games St. John's plays and one of the worst we play all year. It's snowballed on us, and we have to learn that teams will come after MU just like MU went after KState, WI and Buff. The fact we are 0-2 without being competitive in true road games is a bit disconcerting, but I'm gonna believe these games will be anomalies at the end of the year.
Good post Tower. Solid analysis.
Our 2 best players were no-shows in what will be one of our two toughest conference games. That'll result in a blowout 100% of the time. Thankfully I think this is probably the toughest matchup in the Big East for Marquette. I trust Markus and Sam won't play this poorly in every road game. If they do we'll still be a 9-12 win conference team. If they play better on the road every so often we'll get 12-14 conference wins. First road game since November. Nice wakeup call. Take it out on Xavier and go from there.
Atrocious offense and a lost defense. Embarrassing effort. What else.can ya say.
Their 3 point shooting was an anomaly just insane
Markus and happ have a lot in common. When they play next level talent they get sped up. They don't quite play as well. When and If they overcome those challenges so do they overcome the next level questions....
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2019, 08:02:56 PM
Can't play on the road YET. Another step in the process.
Agree. This team has improved significantly since the beginning of the year. STJ is fast, talented and a poor match-up for us. Mullen is likely useless but they way this STJ plays one on one do they need a coach?
We will eventually win on the road and the defense will continue to improve. Markus will have good and bad days as all pure shooters do. No need to worry. MU will come around.
Quote from: nyg on January 01, 2019, 08:08:47 PM
Two steps forward, one step back. Have protected home court, but spanked on road again. I didn't think SJU would do that.
Markus had two NBA body players and good defenders in Simon and Heron guarding him, mainly Simon. Height advantages at 6ft 5 each showed tonight.
This game illustrates why he really does not have a legitimate nba shot. Short of a curry type of tourney performance. The long quick nba sized 2s i fear will shut him down.
Kid got an extra helping of quick release fire but was not blessed with that ever so critical height.
Hes a way better basketball player than some of our recent nba level alums but man he really needed that body!
Quote from: Class71 on January 01, 2019, 08:31:53 PM
Agree. This team has improved significantly since the beginning of the year. STJ is fast, talented and a poor match-up for us. Mullen is likely useless but they way this STJ plays one on one do they need a coach?
We will eventually win on the road and the defense will continue to improve. Markus will have good and bad days as all pure shooters do. No need to worry. MU will come around.
Why do you think Mullen is "likely useless?" I think he has done well.
Oh btw, have you ever assumed a team would beat another team comfortably and been wrong? Its bound to happen sometimes. Get outta here buddy. Call all the names you want.
I never assume a conference road game is easy.
Interesting TO's not actually the problem tonight. If you said we would have only 12 and still get blown out? D really the problem.
Quote from: geps on January 01, 2019, 08:40:44 PM
Interesting TO's not actually the problem tonight. If you said we would have only 12 and still get blown out? D really the problem.
Same problem as last year.
Quote from: geps on January 01, 2019, 08:40:44 PM
Interesting TO's not actually the problem tonight. If you said we would have only 12 and still get blown out? D really the problem.
Four SJU players much quicker than each MU player. The fifth, Clarke stayed outside and hit the open three while Theo/Morrow stayed down low to protect Markus from getting posted up down low by Simon. Which happened on more than one occasion.
Sam got beat by Heron, Joey by Figueroa and Sacar by Ponds going to the basket and most of their fouls were on the drives. That's just the way SJU plays.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 01, 2019, 08:41:35 PM
Same problem as last year.
Tonight, SJU was effective running high pick and roll. Probably the most effective an opponent has been this season. They also focused on posting up whoever Markus was guarding and then clearing a side. A very good coaching job. MU has been better on defense this season. But they have been exposed by teams that put a lot of speed on the floor.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 01, 2019, 08:09:25 PM
It isn't just a home / road thing. SJU and IU are athletic teams filled with players who can switch every screen without losing much of a beat, and who can beat MU off the dribble with proper spacing.
I tend to agree that this was largely matchup driven, but the road woes are concerning. At some point you have to outperform your competition on the road to advance and move on, and we just can't seem to get that dome.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 01, 2019, 08:16:53 PM
Our 2 best players were no-shows in what will be one of our two toughest conference games. That'll result in a blowout 100% of the time. Thankfully I think this is probably the toughest matchup in the Big East for Marquette. I trust Markus and Sam won't play this poorly in every road game. If they do we'll still be a 9-12 win conference team. If they play better on the road every so often we'll get 12-14 conference wins. First road game since November. Nice wakeup call. Take it out on Xavier and go from there.
Agree with this, and with tower's excellent OP.
Sometimes, the game just gets away from a team, and that's what happened in both this game and the IU game.
We have a good team, but we do still have some proving to do. And that's OK. It's what a season is for.
There's no way to sugarcoat this, and I won't try. But only a non-fan would panic and scream about how much we suck.
Still confident that we're going to have a fun, satisfying season.
Quote from: Class71 on January 01, 2019, 08:31:53 PM
Agree. This team has improved significantly since the beginning of the year. STJ is fast, talented and a poor match-up for us. Mullen is likely useless but they way this STJ plays one on one do they need a coach?
We will eventually win on the road and the defense will continue to improve. Markus will have good and bad days as all pure shooters do. No need to worry. MU will come around.
Correct, they don't need a coach, and thanks to Tower, now I have a name for the offence, 5-out.
Quote from: Boston Warrior on January 01, 2019, 08:26:28 PM
Markus and happ have a lot in common. When they play next level talent they get sped up. They don't quite play as well. When and If they overcome those challenges so do they overcome the next level questions....
Both Kansas State and Buffalo have excellent defensive guards and both have played good defense all season. Neither team had lost a game when we played them. Markus put up 45 on each of them, in great part because he shot like a couple of the St. John's players did tonight.
Markus and Happ have zero in common. Happ needs somebody else to get him the basketball. He is a liability if fouled. He has a shooting range of 3 feet. Markus can beat a team from 25 feet, from in the lane, and from at the basket. He can get an inbound pass after the other team scores, take the ball down the court, and shoot without ever giving up the rock.
Neither their games nor their happenstances could be any more different.
Markus had a bad game tonight. He's had a few this season, and he'll probably have a few more. That happens with every good shooter. If you refuse to look at his history of doing well against good opposition, let the season play out and see if you still think he can't play against good opposition.
Quote from: vogue65 on January 01, 2019, 09:21:26 PM
Correct, they don't need a coach, and thanks to Tower, now I have a name for the offence, 5-out.
Our offense was offensive.
Quote from: We R Final Four on January 01, 2019, 09:31:29 PM
Our offense was offensive.
Shots didn't fall, but we did what we were supposed to do. We attacked inside, to the point where we took 9 more shots inside and took a higher percentage of shots inside. We tried to be the aggressor, but didn't get any calls until the game was no longer in doubt.
We had a 41-32 edge in 2PFGA, which would typically lead to more fouls drawn and more FTs. Markus drew one foul on 8 drives. Somehow, the team shooting jumpers was the one that spent the night on the line.
What I meant was our offence was offencive.😉
Quote from: tower912 on January 01, 2019, 07:59:07 PM
1. Anybody who thought this was going to be an easy win is a... never mind. Not going to call names.
2. IU part II Motivated home team that was quicker at nearly every position.
3. Markus couldn't shoot. The rest of the team was not able to pick him up.
4. Sam being a non-factor offensively until late was a double whammy.
5. Of course SJU got the calls. They were the aggressor in their bandbox gym. Officiating usually favors the aggressive home team.
6. Rowsey is gone. But most teams are still going to post up against Markus. And it doesn't matter who he guards, they will look to make him defend down low. Smart coaching.
7. SJU spread out MU's defense, took away the help, and then either drove or shot the 3 well. All of the schemes in the world do not allow help on a 5-out set. Have to have the lateral quickness to defend the dribble one on one. MU is improved defensively, but are still not quick.
8. Also got out-quicked (or out-hustled) on the boards.
9. I have never been on the fire Wojo bandwagon, and am not now. I also did not give in to what I viewed as irrational exuberance forecasting MU's conference record. MU has now played two road games and gotten rolled twice. I think that IU and SJU are both very good teams, particularly at home. Both times, MU looked slow and lost. Every conference road game is tough. MU is going to have to figure out how to bring the same energy and shooting they have at Fiserv to these hostile venues. I predicted 12-6. I am still feeling that.
10. All that is left to do is learn from this.
11. The most important game is the next one.
12-6 in a down BE with the best team Wojo has ever had...would be a monumental disaster because 12-6 is NOT winning them the BE, not even close.
Quote from: muguru on January 01, 2019, 10:12:26 PM
12-6 in a down BE with the best team Wojo has ever had...would be a monumental disaster because 12-6 is NOT winning them the BE, not even close.
Everything to you is a monumental disaster. There's still time to make a New Year's Resolution.
We are SO slow st johns was way quicker than us
Quote from: MU82 on January 01, 2019, 09:26:39 PM
Both Kansas State and Buffalo have excellent defensive guards and both have played good defense all season. Neither team had lost a game when we played them. Markus put up 45 on each of them, in great part because he shot like a couple of the St. John's players did tonight.
Markus and Happ have zero in common. Happ needs somebody else to get him the basketball. He is a liability if fouled. He has a shooting range of 3 feet. Markus can beat a team from 25 feet, from in the lane, and from at the basket. He can get an inbound pass after the other team scores, take the ball down the court, and shoot without ever giving up the rock.
Neither their games nor their happenstances could be any more different.
Markus had a bad game tonight. He's had a few this season, and he'll probably have a few more. That happens with every good shooter. If you refuse to look at his history of doing well against good opposition, let the season play out and see if you still think he can't play against good opposition.
Also i think Ed should be starting hes a man on the rebounds
Quote from: muguru on January 01, 2019, 10:12:26 PM
12-6 in a down BE with the best team Wojo has ever had...would be a monumental disaster because 12-6 is NOT winning them the BE, not even close.
I'd take 12-6 seven days of the week. That would be close to winning the league as well imo. Finishing the league 12-5 from here on out will be a tall order but think the team can get it done. A 23-8 finish would put us in a good position to succeed in March and give us a legit shot at the sweet 16 in the 5-6 seed range. Far from a monumental disaster.
Quote from: Boston Warrior on January 01, 2019, 10:30:05 PM
Markus and happ are similar in that both are elite college players who struggle against nba length and athleticism.
They both have proved that against wkus Bassey and St. John's guards.
Honest question, how many Big East wins do you guys think we need to be a lock for the Tournament? With how the league is this year, do we need to finish 11-7 or better?
I think 11 is the number.
10
Quote from: Research Report on January 01, 2019, 10:58:40 PM
Honest question, how many Big East wins do you guys think we need to be a lock for the Tournament? With how the league is this year, do we need to finish 11-7 or better?
hopefully we go 12-6 or 13-5. gotta protect the fiserv and not lose stupid games
Quote from: Research Report on January 01, 2019, 10:58:40 PM
Honest question, how many Big East wins do you guys think we need to be a lock for the Tournament? With how the league is this year, do we need to finish 11-7 or better?
Hard to say because of the NET. Still need to feel out how the selection committee is going to work from now on. I would say we did enough in the non-conference to get in with 10 Big East wins, 9 is a possibility. This is provided that our four big non-con wins don't tank.
As "down" as the Big East is, it is overall still a very solid conference. It is down at the top but strong in the middle and very strong at the bottom. This is problematic for teams like St. John's who didn't get in any big wins in the non-conference....but since we already have some big time wins, the lack of potential disastrous losses works to our advantage.
Fortunately, I think is all academic anyway. I think we go 12-6, maybe even 13-5. I think 10-8 is worse case scenario barring major injuries.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 01, 2019, 10:22:15 PM
Everything to you is a monumental disaster. There's still time to make a New Year's Resolution.
You know what?? Screw you...leave me alone. I have HIGH expectations for the program...the fact you are totally okay with mediocrity, is your prerogative. Just because I(and others) don't share that view or have such low expectations, is no reason for you to attack me.
I believe Marquette needs to win 10 in the big east to get to the ncaa.
I believe they will win 12 or 13.
Quote from: Research Report on January 01, 2019, 10:58:40 PM
Honest question, how many Big East wins do you guys think we need to be a lock for the Tournament? With how the league is this year, do we need to finish 11-7 or better?
The league is down from its own performance in prior years , however on a relative basis to other conferences it is roughly in the same position. PAC 12 is definitely down and the AAC is up. The key for MU is going to be how teams like Creighton , Providence and Butler perform. They need to be good enough to keep the quality of the league strong, but not so good that they pass MU. I think 12 wins for MU is a tourney lock, 11 is probable and it starts to get dicey at 10.
I know RPI is not being used any more but it still an interesting reference point and Big East is still hanging in there at 3rd this year.
http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_conf_Men.html
Quote from: muguru on January 01, 2019, 11:13:47 PM
You know what?? Screw you...leave me alone. I have HIGH expectations for the program...the fact you are totally okay with mediocrity, is your prerogative. Just because I(and others) don't share that view or have such low expectations, is no reason for you to attack me.
Happy New Year
I assure you I don't have low expectations or accept mediocrity...they will get back at it and do better. Adversity happens, how one deals with it determines how one lives.
I honestly wish you would be happier in life.
Quote from: muguru on January 01, 2019, 10:12:26 PM
12-6 in a down BE with the best team Wojo has ever had...would be a monumental disaster because 12-6 is NOT winning them the BE, not even close.
Oops ... you took a wrong turn and missed the Daily Dose of Doom Thread on the Superbar.
Because we surely are doomed.
Doomed, I say!!!
Didn't see the game so don't know how much was "Hero Ball" - but we're still clearly living and dying by Markus. I think we're good enough elsewhere that that wouldn't have to be the case.
"Ok" to lose this one, but the way we lost this and IU are tough. Winning on the road against a good team (anyone) is the last thing we need to see from this team. Without it grade is still an incomplete.
Are we 1-4 on BE opening nights now under Wojo? Some tough draws, but always sucks to start conference on the wrong foot.
My thoughts after tonight:
- I wanted to see Wojo more fired up for this game. The way Mullen has his team assembled, it's like they are ready to throw a punch from the moment they walk in the gym (case in point, Ponds shoves John and their bench almost clears). Point is, they were way more fired up than us today. They were tougher, and if there were ever a time when I would be ok with Wojo getting a T, this was the game. Probably 8 minutes or so into the second half, I was actually hoping for it. I'm not saying the officials cost us the game, but it was really one-sided for most of it, and we just folded.
- I don't mind the fact that we lost on the road, but I'm tired of being embarrassed. Being on the receiving end of the "this is the biggest win against a ranked team in x years" types of comments sucks. Can't we at least make it a game?
- At the beginning of this year, there was a lot of talk about Wojo having a good problem with so much depth. I'm not sure how deep we really are. I feel like we have an established 7-man rotation. Cain & Bailey have potential, but as of today they are completely hit or miss, and lately it's a lot of the latter. Heldt isn't going to play much at all for the rest of the year. Elliott's injury hurts. I like having 12 guys because the minutes always work themselves out like they are this year.
- I think we take it to them in Milwaukee just like a repeat of last year. Wish this wasn't our first BE road game but so be it.
- Joey is a stud and I want to see more of our offense go through him. When he cuts down on turnovers, he'll start scoring 20 a game (if he gets the ball...see below).
- There was one guy politely complaining about Markus trying to do too much after the Buffalo win when his first half was awful, and got roasted by other posters. I understood where he was coming from. Yes, he can go into NBA Jam mode at any point, but when he doesn't have it, he does NOT do a good job of finding other ways to contribute, get other people shots, etc. I think he needs to grow the most in this area. Ponds scores almost as much as him but also leads the conference in assists. Markus seems so one-dimensional. It's an amazing dimension when he's on, but if we are literally going to win or lose as Markus goes, then we will not go far in the BE tournament or the NCAA tournament, because against good competition, he's just not going to be able to single-handily carry us for the multiple wins in a row required to win a tournament on a neutral floor.
- I've really grown to despise St. John's under Mullen. I hate the way they play and I hate losing to them. They reach, they climb our back on every post entry pass, and if the refs are never going to set the tone that those things are going to get called, it turns into playground ball, and I feel like every road game against them ends up like that and we do not play well in playground ball type of games. Unfortunately I think the game tonight is going to end up as their most impressive win this season.
- Surprised at how little Sacar is contributing on offense this year. Thought he'd score 10 a game and that's just not happening. Especially lately, when he drives it seems like he rarely finishes. Plus his free throws (ugh).
- Joe & Ed are both coming along and seem to be getting more and more comfortable which is great for us long-term.
- Despite the loss, it's fun to be back in the rankings and be in the national discussions and actually (hopefully) competing for a BE title.
- Lastly, this team's ceiling will be determined by how much less reliant we become on Markus as the year goes on. If others step up and he learns to better incorporate others, the ceiling is high. If not, we may finish as high as 12-6 in the BE but I don't see much happening after that. Teams with one main star don't tend to do much outside of Kemba Walker that one year. Look at Trae Young's team last year (who everyone is comparing Markus to). Expect us this year to be just like Oklahoma last year unless we adjust. Everyone looks at Sam to be the #2 man, but I think by year end that's Joey and Sam will be our #3. Against athletic teams who keep him from shooting 3s, he is a non-factor on offense whereas Joey can post up, drive, etc. So I'm anxiously awaiting when Joey has firmly planted himself into that role and everyone takes notice.
Quote from: Research Report on January 01, 2019, 10:58:40 PM
Honest question, how many Big East wins do you guys think we need to be a lock for the Tournament? With how the league is this year, do we need to finish 11-7 or better?
10 would make us a lock. 9 might be enough. A combination of 10 league & BET games would be a lock.
11-2 in non con with wins over Wisconsin, K-State, Buffalo, and Louisville means that 10 are enough.
I'm curious why we've gone away from Sam posting up in the short corner. He did that a lot last year with a lot of success. It was a good way to get him going without relying on open looks from 3.
It may be due to Theo's increased usage on offense plus the additions of Joey and Ed. That was a nice part of our offense last year, but I haven't seen us go to it often this year.
Quote from: muguru on January 01, 2019, 11:13:47 PM
You know what?? Screw you...leave me alone. I have HIGH expectations for the program...the fact you are totally okay with mediocrity, is your prerogative. Just because I(and others) don't share that view or have such low expectations, is no reason for you to attack me.
12-6 is not mediocrity or low expectations.
I wonder if spending the night in NYC on NYE had anything to do with the energy level?
First off, Brother Tower's analysis was spot on, as always. Nice job Bro!
Second, my biggest concern has been that we're getting too much offense from Markus. I'm delighted for how good he is and what he's done for us, but there's going to be nights where things just aren't what they're supposed to be. Last night's 8 points was People's Exhibit 1. I can guarantee you what Len Elmore said last night will be the basis for how other BEast team play us: "Don't let Howard beat you!"
At some point, the rest of the team will have to step up, as they did in the first half vs. Buffalo. Joey kinda did, for awhile but we have to get consistently more offense from the Hausers, Theo/Ed and Sacar. Or else, we may make the tournament, but we'll be there for a cup of coffee.
Third, one can tell in the first few minutes of any game what kind of night it is going to be. The sense I had last night was we were working way too hard for baskets that should have fallen comparatively easy. Five minutes or so in and you knew this was going to be a tough night. I won't say we lost our poise, because I don't think we did, but there definitely was something missing. I was glad to see us work the ball inside but geez, their defense was tough and we did not seem to have answers.
Hopefully, this will not happen again.
Quote from: muguru on January 01, 2019, 10:12:26 PM
12-6 in a down BE with the best team Wojo has ever had...would be a monumental disaster because 12-6 is NOT winning them the BE, not even close.
Why do you basically only show up when they lose?
What a whiny turd.
Quote from: connie on January 01, 2019, 09:14:20 PM
I tend to agree that this was largely matchup driven, but the road woes are concerning. At some point you have to outperform your competition on the road to advance and move on, and we just can't seem to get that dome.
Road woes?? We've played two true road games, both very difficult places to play against quality teams that played their best games of the season. If we lose on the road against DePaul or Georgetown I'll say there is something to the road stuff but there just isn't enough info to be concerned at this point.
we did get enough offense from the rest of the team tonight, see morrow, and JC and Joey. It was Sam and Markus who let us down. The three main guys playing there first BE road game played great (EM,JC, JH) The rest of the team with all the BE experience pretty much sucked!
Quote from: MU82 on January 01, 2019, 09:26:39 PM
Markus had a bad game tonight. He's had a few this season, and he'll probably have a few more. That happens with every good shooter. If you refuse to look at his history of doing well against good opposition, let the season play out and see if you still think he can't play against good opposition.
I'd agree that this happens with shooters from time to time, but Markus has balanced his game out this year, scoring a lot more from inside than in prior years. Last night he was 0-7 on 2PFG and 2-8 on 3PFG. He wasn't just cold shooting; he couldn't convert from the paint either. Having added versatility in his scoring abilities should help him contribute on the cold shooting nights, but he seems to be either on or off so far this year.
For me, Sam's inability to show up when Markus is struggling is the biggest concern heading into conference play. Last year Sam seemed a lot more confident offensively and was able to put the team on his back at times. We haven't seen that kind of game from him yet this year, though. I think he's still capable of big games and will earn a few more SOTGs, and I think that all begins with him finding a way to get last year's confidence back.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 02, 2019, 09:21:00 AM
I'd agree that this happens with shooters from time to time, but Markus has balanced his game out this year, scoring a lot more from inside than in prior years. Last night he was 0-7 on 2PFG and 2-8 on 3PFG. He wasn't just cold shooting; he couldn't convert from the paint either. Having added versatility in his scoring abilities should help him contribute on the cold shooting nights, but he seems to be either on or off so far this year.
For me, Sam's inability to show up when Markus is struggling is the biggest concern heading into conference play. Last year Sam seemed a lot more confident offensively and was able to put the team on his back at times. We haven't seen that kind of game from him yet this year, though. I think he's still capable of big games and will earn a few more SOTGs, and I think that all begins with him finding a way to get last year's confidence back.
Agree that Sam has been off for stretches this year (8 shots in 37 minutes is not enough for him), but I don't think it's a confidence issue, I think it's a spacing/personnel issue. Last year, Sam was the second biggest guy we had on the court, and had 2 elite three point shooters around him, so it was easier to post up and get him an iso possession. Loss of Rowsey, addition of Ed/Joey makes it harder for him to post up, and harder for the team to spread the floor. Sam/Wojo need to adapt, and get him more touches.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2019, 08:15:14 AM
Road woes?? We've played two true road games, both very difficult places to play against quality teams that played their best games of the season. If we lose on the road against DePaul or Georgetown I'll say there is something to the road stuff but there just isn't enough info to be concerned at this point.
While I agree it is too early to get bent out of shape about how we played on the road, but in those two games we lost handily to two teams who on paper we should be better than (or at least as good as). While losses in those games is not a big deal at all, two non-competitive losses is some cause for worry.
Quote from: Its DJOver on January 02, 2019, 09:26:54 AM
Agree that Sam has been off for stretches this year (8 shots in 37 minutes is not enough for him), but I don't think it's a confidence issue, I think it's a spacing/personnel issue. Last year, Sam was the second biggest guy we had on the court, and had 2 elite three point shooters around him, so it was easier to post up and get him an iso possession. Loss of Rowsey, addition of Ed/Joey makes it harder for him to post up, and harder for the team to spread the floor. Sam/Wojo need to adapt, and get him more touches.
Sam also can't create his own shot with any consistency. His brother seems to have more ability in this area.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2019, 06:33:06 AM
12-6 is not mediocrity or low expectations.
It's not?? Well this is a down BE, and I doubt 6 wins wins the BE regular season championship..MU was picked for second in the conference by the Coaches..if 12-6 doesn't even garner them second...isn't that playing below expectations?? This is Wojo's best team in 5 years....the BE is down...if not this year...when??
Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2019, 08:15:14 AM
Road woes?? We've played two true road games, both very difficult places to play against quality teams that played their best games of the season. If we lose on the road against DePaul or Georgetown I'll say there is something to the road stuff but there just isn't enough info to be concerned at this point.
I agree with this. Let's assess our "road woes" after we actually play a few road games.
As for those who say we weren't "ready to play," we had the lead with 6 1/2 minutes left in the first half and were down by 4 with 2 minutes to go. Ponds came down and hit two Rowsey-length 3s, Sam missed a 3 and -- bing, bang, boom -- we were on our heels.
Not excusing it. We didn't play well. But it happens.
Thankfully, it's happened only a few times all season against a tough schedule. I'm still thinking 12-14 BEast wins. I know anything short of us winning 20 of our 18 BEast games crushes the likes of guru, but I'll be quite satisfied with the 12-14 BEast wins I think we'll get.
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 02, 2019, 07:30:56 AM
Why do you basically only show up when they lose?
What a whiny turd.
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one". Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2019, 09:36:09 AM
I agree with this. Let's assess our "road woes" after we actually play a few road games.
As for those who say we weren't "ready to play," we had the lead with 6 1/2 minutes left in the first half and were down by 4 with 2 minutes to go. Ponds came down and hit two Rowsey-length 3s, Sam missed a 3 and -- bing, bang, boom -- we were on our heels.
Not excusing it. We didn't play well. But it happens.
Thankfully, it's happened only a few times all season against a tough schedule. I'm still thinking 12-14 BEast wins. I know anything short of us winning 20 of our 18 BEast games crushes the likes of guru, but I'll be quite satisfied with the 12-14 BEast wins I think we'll get.
What annoyed me by those Ponds' three point shots at the end of the half was that Cain did not get up into him, but just stuck up his arms. I don't know if that is what he was told to do, but I just think you have to run the guy off the line at that point. Those shots turned what could have been a 2 to 3 point game at half, to an 8 point game.
Sam was never explosive. Sometimes, it appears to me he has not yet recovered fully from his hip. More importantly, with Joey next to him, Sam is being guarded by the smaller, quicker forward, as opposed to the taller, slower forward.
Or maybe he has completely recovered from his hip and this is just how he is.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 09:40:32 AM
What annoyed me by those Ponds' three point shots at the end of the half was that Cain did not get up into him, but just stuck up his arms. I don't know if that is what he was told to do, but I just think you have to run the guy off the line at that point. Those shots turned what could have been a 2 to 3 point game at half, to an 8 point game.
The first one I think surprised Cain. It was from way out there, and I just don't think he expected it. The second one, yep, should have expected it. Of course, if Cain commits a foul out there, he's a dope, but yes he should have challenged it.
I watched those two shots and contemplated why, in the metric used by TAMU, Cain is the worst defender on the team. And I experienced clarity.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one". Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
Probably the same reason that you're "no big deal" after a win.
Quote from: muguru on December 27, 2018, 09:30:37 AM
Why comment when they win?? I expect them to do that...ergo, I am not surprised or shocked when they do. You play to win the game.
This was a game that a lot expected to lose. I don't think anyone is happy with the way we played, but the L was expected. There were quite a few "so called fans" rightfully pissed after the DePaul loss last year. There were quite a few "so called fans" pissed after the second half of the Kansas game. Just because other people don't kick and scream the way you do after every loss does not mean that they care less than you.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
I watched those two shots and contemplated why, in the metric used by TAMU, Cain is the worst defender on the team. And I experienced clarity.
Right. And Markus had two fouls and Wojo was going with his length over Bailey's inexperience, but in the end it didn't work. I think we really could have used Greg last night, and in that situation in particular.
Someone said it earlier, but for all the depth we supposedly have, this is basically a seven-man team with the occasional eighth guy soaking up spot minutes. This is why you keep adding talent and letting it sort out.
I thought about Greg Elliott, too. I don't think his presence would have meant a win. I think his absence affected Wojo's defensive options and ability to match personnel. SJU was just better last night.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one". Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
I can't speak for VBMG, but here's where I'm coming from ...
When I'm watching a game, I'm plenty annoyed when we struggle. I talk to the TV, occasionally yell at the TV, sometimes my poor dog has to leave the room because she can't take me yelling at the TV. When we're doing well, I stand up and lift both arms for 3-pointers, clap and cheer.
But when the game ends and we leave sports-land for real-life-land, I am able to realize what a great life I have and that as much as I love Marquette basketball game, it's just a game.
I want to win. I want to go to the NCAA tourney and celebrate a run to the Final Four. I do not like to lose. I am plenty "competitive." But whether a group of 18-22 year olds win or lose basketball games simply doesn't consume me. I have a life outside of Marquette hoops.
Plus, complaining and whining and ripping and exaggerating how bad we are by saying we "suck" ... it doesn't change anything, and it just makes me feel worse.
And finally, I really do think we have a good team and are well on our way to having a good season.
Plenty of optimistic Scoopers picked us to go 10-3 in the NC; we went 11-2. Plenty of the same folks predicted we'd lose on the road to a good St. John's team; we did. I'm just not seeing reason to lose my $hit about this team.
Look at just about every outstanding season Marquette has had, be it 1976-77, 2002-03, Buzz's Elite Eight season, any of 'em, and we had plenty of "I can't believe we played that poorly" situations. Indeed, so far, this team has had fewer of those than many past very good Marquette teams have.
Look at the college basketball landscape. We have an entire thread dedicated to good teams losing to bad ones. We have not done that. We have lost two road games to good teams and a neutral-court game to one of the best teams in the country.
We have an entertaining team filled with kids who seem to be a credit to the university. We have one of the best scorers in the country. We have played quite well most games. We are ranked.
I just don't see the point in panicking and exaggerating and flipping out about a good 11-3 team that has had a couple of bad games.
And I can only shake my head that those who do panic and flip out thinking it's a sign that somehow they are "better" fans than those of us who are more pragmatic and calm.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 09:40:32 AM
What annoyed me by those Ponds' three point shots at the end of the half was that Cain did not get up into him, but just stuck up his arms. I don't know if that is what he was told to do, but I just think you have to run the guy off the line at that point. Those shots turned what could have been a 2 to 3 point game at half, to an 8 point game.
Cain's defense was completely fine on those possessions. He was up into him. Hand up on the shot. Ponds went Markus mode. Was in the zone. When that is the case the O always beats good D. Cain gets up any closer to him he fouls him, or Ponds blows by him off the dribble (as happened to Bailey later in the game.) Nobody was shutting Ponds down last night.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one". Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
Again, where are you when the team wins? Conspicuously absent.
What you are displaying is not passion.
I'm not going to freak out about a poorly played game on the road against a solid team because, well, that would be stupid.
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 10:23:00 AM
Cain's defense was completely fine on those possessions. He was up into him. Hand up on the shot. Ponds went Markus mode. Was in the zone. When that is the case the O always beats good D. Cain gets up any closer to him he fouls him, or Ponds blows by him off the dribble (as happened to Bailey later in the game.) Nobody was shutting Ponds down last night.
I wouldn't say it was completely fine on the 2nd one but I have no real issue with what Cain did there. A 35% 3P shooter was hitting NBA 3s. He's a good player, it happens. Only other option was to get up into him more and like you said he probably blows by him and gets an open look for another shooter when help comes. Is that the better option? I don't know. Sometimes great players make tough shots.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one".
Perhaps because the results of teenagers playing a game really is no big deal. Certainly nothing to let ruin your mental health or relationships.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
How can "you" be "competitive" when you have literally zero effect on the outcome? You aren't the one playing, and unless you are part of the coaching staff or administration nothing you do has any effect whatsoever. YOU aren't COMPETING for anything.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 09:40:32 AM
What annoyed me by those Ponds' three point shots at the end of the half was that Cain did not get up into him, but just stuck up his arms. I don't know if that is what he was told to do, but I just think you have to run the guy off the line at that point. Those shots turned what could have been a 2 to 3 point game at half, to an 8 point game.
Defense was fine on those two, you get up in his grill and he blows right by for easy buckets or worse and 1s when the help comes late. Much like other teams with Howard, if Ponds is gonna jack 3s 2 feet behind the NBA 3 point line with a hand near his face and make them there isn't much you can do.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one". Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
Years ago when we blew a huge lead and lost a game we should have won I blew up on our blog and here, called us choking dogs, said we peed down our leg which I borrowed from Buzz. After reflection, I apologized. Was I a passionate fan for erupting like I did? Sounds like you would say yes.
My passion hasn't changed, how I deal with it has. Doesn't make me any less of a fan.....Basketball especially with the kind of game it is depends on whether shots are falling. If they aren't, better teams lose all the time to lesser teams. That's the way it goes. I also don't think putting my emotional well being in a danger zone is productive, but I still want to win and cheer wildly for that outcome.
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 10:23:00 AM
Cain's defense was completely fine on those possessions. He was up into him. Hand up on the shot. Ponds went Markus mode. Was in the zone. When that is the case the O always beats good D. Cain gets up any closer to him he fouls him, or Ponds blows by him off the dribble (as happened to Bailey later in the game.) Nobody was shutting Ponds down last night.
Quote from: mu03eng on January 02, 2019, 10:59:12 AM
Defense was fine on those two, you get up in his grill and he blows right by for easy buckets or worse and 1s when the help comes late. Much like other teams with Howard, if Ponds is gonna jack 3s 2 feet behind the NBA 3 point line with a hand near his face and make them there isn't much you can do.
As I said, maybe that's what Wojo wants him to do. I would rather chase a hot shooter off the line and take my chances.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 11:01:18 AM
As I said, maybe that's what Wojo wants him to do. I would rather chase a hot shooter off the line and take my chances.
Yup. Try to funnel the driver into help and take your chances. That's what they did 2H against Buffalo with good success.
Getting into a 'who is a bigger fan' debate is unproductive. Try to find some balance in your life.
Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 02, 2019, 01:19:56 AM
My thoughts after tonight:
- There was one guy politely complaining about Markus trying to do too much after the Buffalo win when his first half was awful, and got roasted by other posters. I understood where he was coming from. Yes, he can go into NBA Jam mode at any point, but when he doesn't have it, he does NOT do a good job of finding other ways to contribute, get other people shots, etc. I think he needs to grow the most in this area. Ponds scores almost as much as him but also leads the conference in assists. Markus seems so one-dimensional. It's an amazing dimension when he's on, but if we are literally going to win or lose as Markus goes, then we will not go far in the BE tournament or the NCAA tournament, because against good competition, he's just not going to be able to single-handily carry us for the multiple wins in a row required to win a tournament on a neutral floor.
Yup, that would be me.
A few things,
1) thank you
2) you will now be accused of being me and creating an account to respond to yourself...get the tinfoil out
3) it's not what is said here, but who says the what. (People sometimes don't care here about the substance, they only care who wrote it so the knives come out)
4) Markus has to recognize when he doesn't have it he can be a great asset still as a decoy, a distributor, etc. He has to make his defenders still work their tail off because of his threat. My worry then, my worry now, and moving forward is he will try to shoot his way out of it....in some cases it has worked...but it tends to speed up his processing, leads to wild shots, breaks down flow, too.
5) Markus is a great player, I enjoy watching him. Wonderful attitude, grounded. Hopefully one of those games, but every Big East opponent will be going after him.
Hope you don't get too roasted.....Happy New Year
Markus did not force many shots last night. And he has earned the right to shoot his way hot.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2019, 11:17:05 AM
Markus did not force many shots last night. And he has earned the right to shoot his way hot.
Agree, but the ones he did force were really bad. Len Elmore was trying to bite his tongue and be nice about it.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 02, 2019, 11:04:58 AM
Yup. Try to funnel the driver into help and take your chances. That's what they did 2H against Buffalo with good success.
Yeah but Buffalo doesn't play 5 out. Take a look at those two specific plays, there was no one near the paint so the help has to come from far away and from someone that is also a good 3 point shooter. In terms of priority of shots I'm willing to give up it goes:
Lightly contested long distance 3 > late contest on a driving 2(possible and 1) > corner 3 on the kick
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 11:01:18 AM
As I said, maybe that's what Wojo wants him to do. I would rather chase a hot shooter off the line and take my chances.
Usually "chasing a guy off the line" is the result of ball reversal and forcing the D into rotation. Cain was iso'd one on one with Ponds 22' from the bucket. Cain barely gave him any space as it was.
For those who want to point to those two possessions as proof positive of Cain being a poor defender, well, that's some pretty shoddy analysis. Ponds was en fuego and hit two bombs with Cain virtually as close and contesting as much as you can without fouling.
His D on those two possessions was virtually perfect.
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 11:29:49 AM
Usually "chasing a guy off the line" is the result of ball reversal and forcing the D into rotation. Cain was iso'd one on one with Ponds 22' from the bucket. Cain barely gave him any space as it was.
For those who want to point to those two possessions as proof positive of Cain being a poor defender, well, that's some pretty shoddy analysis. Ponds was en fuego and hit two bombs with Cain virtually as close and contesting as much as you can without fouling.
His D on those two possessions was virtually perfect.
I'm not suggesting that it was an example of Cain being a poor defender. There have been a number of other examples of that.
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 11:29:49 AM
Usually "chasing a guy off the line" is the result of ball reversal and forcing the D into rotation. Cain was iso'd one on one with Ponds 22' from the bucket. Cain barely gave him any space as it was.
For those who want to point to those two possessions as proof positive of Cain being a poor defender, well, that's some pretty shoddy analysis. Ponds was en fuego and hit two bombs with Cain virtually as close and contesting as much as you can without fouling.
His D on those two possessions was virtually perfect.
Floorslapper, you are correct that those two possessions do not make Cain a poor defender. There are other examples of that. I did not say what I was thinking clearly, so shame on me. Not for the first time this year, Cain was matched on a good offensive player, was in 'position A' defensively, and gave up a contested 3. I forget which game, but he got bumped by the rolling screener, did a fly-by on a shooter while pulling his arms back to avoid contact, missed the shooter by about an inch, and gave up a made 3. He has played some poor defense but also had the fate of having opponents make contested 3's while he is playing good defense. Luck doesn't show up in stats, but he is also having some bad luck.
The Ponds' shots at the end of the half were examples of being the guy guarding a hot shooter. Ponds was 23 feet out and frozen. Cain was in the appropriate position to take away the drive to the left as well as contest the shot. Ponds, after a couple of second delay, rises and shoots with Cain getting his hand up. They went, the momentum went SJU's way, and it was the beginning of the end.. But Cain really did nothing wrong. But, on the stats, it looks like he is a poor defender, as the guy he is guarding has a high PPP.
Similar to the starting pitcher who pitches well but gets no run support and therefore has a terrible W/L record. I don't think Cain is as bad a defender as his stats make it appear. I think he has made some mistakes and needs to be stronger, but I think he has had the fate of guarding hot shooters.
Wojo I am not sure agrees. In his comments post game he said when Ponds starts playing with ball, he is going to shoot and our guys forgot that in the scouting report.
He had specificity on that and it seemed that he was irked that Ponds was going to shoot, not drive, because he was tipping his hand with what he does playing around with the ball.
Good find on the Wojo quote regarding Ponds. So, apparently, Cain did not play to the scout.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 02, 2019, 11:12:46 AM
Yup, that would be me.
A few things,
1) thank you
2) you will now be accused of being me and creating an account to respond to yourself...get the tinfoil out
3) it's not what is said here, but who says the what. (People sometimes don't care here about the substance, they only care who wrote it so the knives come out)
4) Markus has to recognize when he doesn't have it he can be a great asset still as a decoy, a distributor, etc. He has to make his defenders still work their tail off because of his threat. My worry then, my worry now, and moving forward is he will try to shoot his way out of it....in some cases it has worked...but it tends to speed up his processing, leads to wild shots, breaks down flow, too.
5) Markus is a great player, I enjoy watching him. Wonderful attitude, grounded. Hopefully one of those games, but every Big East opponent will be going after him.
Hope you don't get too roasted.....Happy New Year
In regards to point number 4, Markus "didn't have it" in the first half against Buffalo. We all know what happened next.
Against Kansas, Wisconsin, and St. John's he had off nights.
Yes, Markus is a shot hunter. Sometimes he gets hot, sometimes he's ice cold. You take the good with the bad.
This team is missing a couple guards that can slash, score, dish, and shoot. Hopefully McEwen and Elliott add that element next year.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 02, 2019, 11:45:48 AM
Wojo I am not sure agrees. In his comments post game he said when Ponds starts playing with ball, he is going to shoot and our guys forgot that in the scouting report.
He had specificity on that and it seemed that he was irked that Ponds was going to shoot, not drive, because he was tipping his hand with what he does playing around with the ball.
Can you link the presser/quotes? Ponds broke us down off the dribble and got to the rack about 4 times prior to launching the bombs against Cain too. He was effective going to the rack, so that strategy wasn't exactly effective.
3 of 4 of Ponds' first FG were made layups within the first 4 minutes of the game.
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/playbyplay?gameId=401083254
I'm not criticizing Wojo here. We got beat by a talented player who went off, just like Markus beat Buffalo, K-State, and Providence last season. Great coaching cannot beat great offensive talent/output.
The delta between Ponds and Markus was as stark as it possibly could have been last night, and as a result the blowout loss shouldn't come as a surprise. It happens.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on January 02, 2019, 12:04:29 PM
In regards to point number 4, Markus "didn't have it" in the first half against Buffalo. We all know what happened next.
Against Kansas, Wisconsin, and St. John's he had off nights.
Yes, Markus is a shot hunter. Sometimes he gets hot, sometimes he's ice cold. You take the good with the bad.
This team is missing a couple guards that can slash, score, dish, and shoot. Hopefully McEwen and Elliott add that element next year.
Not only that, but Howard is fifth in the conference in assist percentage. So let's not write him off as a black hole.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
Not only that, but Howard is fifth in the conference in assist percentage. So let's not write him off as a black hole.
Markus is not a "black hole," but he also is not a create-for-others PG. I love having him on the Warriors, but he simply does not see the court the way good PGs do, IMHO.
Once he starts taking the ball into the lane, he almost always is going to shoot. He rarely looks for open teammates.
Fortunately, he is usually a very good finisher who, at the very least, draws fouls. He didn't finish or draw fouls last night. It happens.
He'll get a few assists, but he's not really a PG, not in the way most basketball observers think of PGs.
I agree he's not an ideal PG. But he is far from as terrible as some people here claim him to be.
Gbiggest weakness on the team rught now is the 2 guard. Cain and bailey havent gotten it yet and sacar is running iut of time. Sacar really does nothing well, defense, rebounding, passing, ball handling and shooting are all well below average. He drives ok but finishes poorly and then good Lord if he gets fouled.
It could be easily argued we are the weakest team in the BE at that spot. Its a black hole for this team and our achilles heal. Greg Elliot, if u watch his play in the BE from last year, would have been a massive improvemnt.
Now I'm concerned about our visit to Omaha. If the Blue Jays get hot shooting 3s and double team Markus it could be another long night. We have to show we can win without Markus.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 12:16:21 PM
I agree he's not an ideal PG. But he is far from as terrible as some people here claim him to be.
I certainly agree with that. He is a "score-first and score-second point guard," and he's the best we've got. He's a huge net positive for us.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 02, 2019, 12:21:30 PM
Greg Elliot, if u watch his play in the BE from last year, would have been a massive improvemnt.
One could say the same about Cain's play in the BE last year.
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 12:05:02 PM
Can you link the presser/quotes? Ponds broke us down off the dribble and got to the rack about 4 times prior to launching the bombs against Cain too. He was effective going to the rack, so that strategy wasn't exactly effective.
It is in the Steele article in JS.
"I mean, he had 40 against us last year," Wojciechowski said. "When he starts to jab and when he starts to play with the ball - he's going to shoot.
"And we didn't remember that from the scouting report. And we need to remember better."
Quote from: Cheeks on January 02, 2019, 12:33:14 PM
It is in the Steele article in JS.
"I mean, he had 40 against us last year," Wojciechowski said. "When he starts to jab and when he starts to play with the ball - he's going to shoot.
"And we didn't remember that from the scouting report. And we need to remember better."
Thanks. Think Wojo's off here - he's not exactly throwing our guys under the bus with the quote, but think it would have been more legit/appropriate to just tip the cap to Ponds (much like Buffalo coach did about Markus.).
Did you feel Cain didn't defend well on those possessions? How much closer do you want him/expect him? And, when Ponds blew by everyone else prior to those and got to the rack for several AND 1 conversions, what else could Cain have done?
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2019, 12:25:49 PM
One could say the same about Cain's play in the BE last year.
Disagree, cain shot 3s well and nothing else.
Greg did manythings well
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Thanks. Think Wojo's off here - he's not exactly throwing our guys under the bus with the quote, but think it would have been more legit/appropriate to just tip the cap to Ponds (much like Buffalo coach did about Markus.).
Did you feel Cain didn't defend well on those possessions? How much closer do you want him/expect him? And, when Ponds blew by everyone else prior to those and got to the rack for several AND 1 conversions, what else could Cain have done?
When I watched the replays I felt he could have been up on him another foot or so, but what struck me was the "tell" that Wojo is talking about. If Ponds has that striking of a tell that when he starts making love to the ball he isn't putting it on the deck, but shooting...well we need to listen to the scouting report until Ponds does something different.
From what I recall, Ponds did his drives purposefully wither in transition or coming from a cut. What he did with those three pointers is a bit of lulling and setting up, but always shot. I can't recall one where when he was top of key with the ball doing his sway dance where he put it on the deck, maybe he did.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2019, 09:41:43 AM
Sam was never explosive. Sometimes, it appears to me he has not yet recovered fully from his hip. More importantly, with Joey next to him, Sam is being guarded by the smaller, quicker forward, as opposed to the taller, slower forward.
The experience our family has had ,competing in D1 sports , is that the recovery time for the major surgery like Sam had is split into two parts. The first is the actual healing and rehab which is about 6 months. The second is the getting your body and muscle memory back in elite form. Several different trainers told us younger people muscle memory is not as long as older people . Our experience is it is another 6 months before a kid is fully back to where they were prior to surgery.
(pulls pin in grenade, starts inching toward the door as he lobs the grenade) SJU last night reminded me of some of Buzz's teams. No size, not a ton of depth, strong guards who can defend multiple positions, sharing the ball, exploiting mismatches and driving and dishing for the open 3's. (with grenade tossed, runs outside before it explodes)
There is more than one way to build a winning basketball team and program. Now, 18 hours later, I am reminded of a Buzz MU team beating a Bo Wisconsin team.
Quote from: Cheeks on January 02, 2019, 12:49:05 PM
When I watched the replays I felt he could have been up on him another foot or so, but what struck me was the "tell" that Wojo is talking about. If Ponds has that striking of a tell that when he starts making love to the ball he isn't putting it on the deck, but shooting...well we need to listen to the scouting report until Ponds does something different.
From what I recall, Ponds did his drives purposefully wither in transition or coming from a cut. What he did with those three pointers is a bit of lulling and setting up, but always shot. I can't recall one where when he was top of key with the ball doing his sway dance where he put it on the deck, maybe he did.
I'm in the camp of you have to get up in him more, especially on the second one. Make him put it on the deck. If he beats you that way so be it, but to act like there is literally nothing else we could have done is inaccurate. You get up in him, pressure him, and try to make him uncomfortable any way you can (throw a double team at him if you have to). It may not work either, but you have to try other things (like when we tried zone second half) instead of just tipping the cap with a victim mentality saying, "Go ahead and hit 3s in our face all day because there is NOTHING we can do about it." Cain just stood there. Sure he was in ok position, but Ponds was in control, had all the time in the world, and did whatever he wanted to.
I will say at least half the blame is on Wojo. If his team is forgetting the scouting report, that's on him too. Clearly he didn't drill it into their heads enough. Furthermore, he could have been shouting from the bench to get up in him. OR, maybe call a timeout after the first 3 like Mullen did when Markus hit his first 3? It's on both Cain & Wojo.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2019, 02:12:55 PM
(pulls pin in grenade, starts inching toward the door as he lobs the grenade) SJU last night reminded me of some of Buzz's teams. No size, not a ton of depth, strong guards who can defend multiple positions, sharing the ball, exploiting mismatches and driving and dishing for the open 3's. (with grenade tossed, runs outside before it explodes)
Switchables.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on January 02, 2019, 12:23:30 PM
Now I'm concerned about our visit to Omaha. If the Blue Jays get hot shooting 3s and double team Markus it could be another long night. We have to show we can win without Markus.
If there is something to the road woes yes there is reason to be concerned.....but Creighton's defense is garbage compared to St John's, they are in the bottom third of all of D1 in Defensive eFG%. They are basically our defense from last year. Yes, their offense is very good but if our defense can chase them off the 3pt line and limit them to one and done we should be able to out score them.
But your point isn't a bad one, this game will be the tell of whether or not MU's defensive improvement is legitimate.
Quote from: Sultan of South Wayne on January 02, 2019, 02:16:20 PM
Switchables.
Absolutely. Hoped Cain and GE were a step toward returning to that idea. McEwen and Akanno could be even more.
Quote from: TheyWereCones on January 02, 2019, 02:14:01 PM
I'm in the camp of you have to get up in him more, especially on the second one. Make him put it on the deck. If he beats you that way so be it, but to act like there is literally nothing else we could have done is inaccurate. You get up in him, pressure him, and try to make him uncomfortable any way you can (throw a double team at him if you have to). It may not work either, but you have to try other things (like when we tried zone second half) instead of just tipping the cap with a victim mentality saying, "Go ahead and hit 3s in our face all day because there is NOTHING we can do about it." Cain just stood there. Sure he was in ok position, but Ponds was in control, had all the time in the world, and did whatever he wanted to.
I will say at least half the blame is on Wojo. If his team is forgetting the scouting report, that's on him too. Clearly he didn't drill it into their heads enough. Furthermore, he could have been shouting from the bench to get up in him. OR, maybe call a timeout after the first 3 like Mullen did when Markus hit his first 3? It's on both Cain & Wojo.
Didn't Wojo take Cain out as soon as that 2nd three went in? Putting half the blame on the coach for the player forgetting the scouting report seems extreme. Calling a TO after the first three is an interesting thought though.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2019, 11:11:43 AM
Getting into a 'who is a bigger fan' debate is unproductive. Try to find some balance in your life.
Balance? Speak for yourself. You live on this website. :P
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on January 02, 2019, 12:21:30 PM
Gbiggest weakness on the team rught now is the 2 guard. Cain and bailey havent gotten it yet and sacar is running iut of time. Sacar really does nothing well, defense, rebounding, passing, ball handling and shooting are all well below average. He drives ok but finishes poorly and then good Lord if he gets fouled.
It could be easily argued we are the weakest team in the BE at that spot. Its a black hole for this team and our achilles heal. Greg Elliot, if u watch his play in the BE from last year, would have been a massive improvemnt.
It seems like both Sacar and Jamal have taken steps back from last year, which I don't understand. And then Bailey, at this point, still looks like he's getting used to the faster pace of D1 hoops, so I don't think he's going to be the contributor many hoped he would be back in November. If we could get more PG minute out of Chartouny and let Markus play the 2 more often, that would be ideal, but I'm not betting on this option right now.
Sacar is a guy I've really been pulling for this year, but I have to agree that he's not playing up to what I see as his potential right now. I still think he's our best on-ball defender, but he's been too inconsistent so far this year to be a consistent game-changer from the defensive end. If he can start converting some of his drives to the hoop, he could be an effective scorer at times, so hopefully we'll see his FG% improve throughout conference play. As a fourth year guy, this is the time for him to step up.
Quote from: g0lden3agle on January 02, 2019, 02:37:59 PM
Didn't Wojo take Cain out as soon as that 2nd three went in? Putting half the blame on the coach for the player forgetting the scouting report seems extreme. Calling a TO after the first three is an interesting thought though.
Yes he did pull him out right after that. Go back and watch the game. Cain was about as close to Ponds as you'd want. Worst thing you can do is foul a 3-point shooter. Ponds already had scored 4 layups on us by that point (a couple of which were and 1's.)
Pretty sure the Buffalo coach didn't pull his guys when Markus was hitting contested 23-footers.
To expect more from Cain there IMO is asking quite a bit..perhaps 6-12" closer on the contest (but more than likely that wasn't going to make a difference given that the shots were pretty darn well-contested as it was.)
Quote from: Vander Blue Man Group on January 02, 2019, 10:34:49 AM
Again, where are you when the team wins? Conspicuously absent.
What you are displaying is not passion.
I'm not going to freak out about a poorly played game on the road against a solid team because, well, that would be stupid.
Losses should bother you...and every one. That's my whole point. Just because you may have "expected" it, doesn't mean you should like it, or be "ok" with it. You should want them to win every game. I can't say i EVER EXPECT them to lose going into a game. I definitely realize it's a possibility, but can honestly say I don't EXPECT it. To be honest this was one I really thought they SHOULD win. SJU hadn't impressed me to this point against poor competition. I also understand it's hard to win on the road in CBB...yet, to hear some people talk about it, it's virtually impossible...well it's not, teams win on the road all the time.
I just can't ever EXPECT them to lose any game(while fully understanding it's possible), because to me personally, expecting a loss is a loser's mentality. I'm just not wired that way.
Quote from: skianth16 on January 02, 2019, 03:12:36 PM
It seems like both Sacar and Jamal have taken steps back from last year, which I don't understand. And then Bailey, at this point, still looks like he's getting used to the faster pace of D1 hoops, so I don't think he's going to be the contributor many hoped he would be back in November. If we could get more PG minute out of Chartouny and let Markus play the 2 more often, that would be ideal, but I'm not betting on this option right now.
Sacar is a guy I've really been pulling for this year, but I have to agree that he's not playing up to what I see as his potential right now. I still think he's our best on-ball defender, but he's been too inconsistent so far this year to be a consistent game-changer from the defensive end. If he can start converting some of his drives to the hoop, he could be an effective scorer at times, so hopefully we'll see his FG% improve throughout conference play. As a fourth year guy, this is the time for him to step up.
See, the above actually surprises me as to why Wojo hasn't inserted Chartouny into the starting lineup yet..I honestly thought that was going to happen several games ago already. He's as good of(if not better) on the ball defender as Sacar, so he can't say they lose to much defensively. The ONLY reason i can think of that Sacar is still starting ahead of Chartouny is because Sacar has been in the program, and Wojo feels like he's earned that right. That's the only thing that makes sense(and a VERY poor reason), but it can't be from a "on the floor" performance perspective.
I think it's simply because he would like a ball handler coming off the bench. Chartouny's minutes have been trending up, except for Buffalo, and Sacar's have been trending down. So we will see how it ends up.
I just watched the highlights and I have 3 thoughts.
1. Most of Clark's and Ponds' early shots were contested. Both of Ponds' and 1s were good defense, good finishes, and very weak foul calls. Clark's first 2 threes we had guys there and they just went in. It happens.
2. Cain's defense on Ponds' two threes at the end of the half was much worse than I originally thought. His hand was up and his positioning was fine but he was just beyond flat footed. A player as experienced and as skilled as Ponds knows Cain has no chance of actually altering that shot.
3. The uncalled technical on Heron following his dunk was even more absurd than I remember it. Textbook technical.
Overall I'm a bit more encouraged after rewatching. We got clobbered and SJU outplayed us in every facet but I didn't think our defense was too bad until the last 10 minutes. It will be fine. Expecting a big bounce back on Sunday.
Four factors from the game:
Efg%:
MU: 46.8%
SJU: 63.4%
TO%:
MU: 16.5%
SJU: 15.2%
OR%
MU: 25.6%
SJU: 19.4%
FTR:
MU: 29%
SJU: 42.9%
Hot shooting for St. John's, below average shooting for MU. MU owned the boards, turnovers are pretty much a wash. Big advantage for SJU at the charity stripe. Someone else pointed this out but MU was the aggressor with a lot more drives and 2P FGAs. SJU was more of the jumpshooting team. Typically that would result in a free throw advantage for MU.
Quote from: Floorslapper on January 02, 2019, 03:22:45 PM
Pretty sure the Buffalo coach didn't pull his guys when Markus was hitting contested 23-footers.
If you think Cain was contesting those two shots to the same degree that Buffalo's guards were contesting most of Markus' 3s, you need to go back and watch the Buffalo game.
I'm sticking with Cain was surprised by the first one but shouldn't have been by the second one.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 03:51:46 PM
Losses should bother you...and every one. That's my whole point. Just because you may have "expected" it, doesn't mean you should like it, or be "ok" with it. You should want them to win every game. I can't say i EVER EXPECT them to lose going into a game. I definitely realize it's a possibility, but can honestly say I don't EXPECT it. To be honest this was one I really thought they SHOULD win. SJU hadn't impressed me to this point against poor competition. I also understand it's hard to win on the road in CBB...yet, to hear some people talk about it, it's virtually impossible...well it's not, teams win on the road all the time.
I just can't ever EXPECT them to lose any game(while fully understanding it's possible), because to me personally, expecting a loss is a loser's mentality. I'm just not wired that way.
Not freaking out over a loss doesn't mean the loss was expected. It doesn't mean the loss wasn't disappointing or frustrating. It doesn't mean someone doesn't want them to win every game.
But if you seriously expect a win every game you're living in a fantasy world. It's delusional. And only showing up to complain after losses and not celebrating wins because they're "expected" doesn't sound particularly enjoyable. It's like you think your type of fandom is some kind of badge of honor. It's not.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 03:51:46 PM
Losses should bother you...and every one. That's my whole point. Just because you may have "expected" it, doesn't mean you should like it, or be "ok" with it. You should want them to win every game. I can't say i EVER EXPECT them to lose going into a game. I definitely realize it's a possibility, but can honestly say I don't EXPECT it. To be honest this was one I really thought they SHOULD win. SJU hadn't impressed me to this point against poor competition. I also understand it's hard to win on the road in CBB...yet, to hear some people talk about it, it's virtually impossible...well it's not, teams win on the road all the time.
I just can't ever EXPECT them to lose any game(while fully understanding it's possible), because to me personally, expecting a loss is a loser's mentality. I'm just not wired that way.
It is a marathon, not a sprint. The Patriots lose, the Golden State Warriors lose. Learn from them, improve, get better. I'm fine with a few losses in December and January if they lead to lessons learned.
Quote from: MU82 on January 02, 2019, 08:00:50 PM
If you think Cain was contesting those two shots to the same degree that Buffalo's guards were contesting most of Markus' 3s, you need to go back and watch the Buffalo game.
I'm sticking with Cain was surprised by the first one but shouldn't have been by the second one.
Exactly. I think Floorslapper & I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one, where I believe more could have been done to prevent at least that second 3.
Regarding my comment that it's part on Wojo too, if Cain really did mess up and didn't follow the scouting report, then after the first 3 he should have been all over him as MU went back on offense, and when they were back on D again he should have been shouting for Cain to get up in him. I didn't go back and watch the replay so if Wojo did those things then it is 100% on Cain and I'll change my opinion.
Quote from: muguru on January 02, 2019, 09:38:33 AM
Whatever...why are you and so many others always so "no big deal" after losses?? You might lead the parade in that area to be honest. It honestly makes me sick to see so many "so called fans" here after every single loss, just blowing it off like it's no big deal and "on to the next one". Where is the passion?? I guess most just aren't all that competitive, which is fine, I'm just not that way.
Another muguru Scoop Takes collaboration! Well done!