https://twitter.com/BenSteeleMJS/status/1075241202310615040?s=19
Per Steele
https://twitter.com/bensteelemjs/status/1075241202310615040?s=21 (https://twitter.com/bensteelemjs/status/1075241202310615040?s=21)
Beat me to it.
This is a bummer, I think Greg definitely could have helped us this year. Hopefully he can make good use of this time off and really come back and be an impact player next season.
Makes sense for a lot of reasons. Looking forward to his improvements and health next year!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1M9fmo1WAFVK0/giphy.gif)
Wojo confirmed with Homer postgame
Wojo: "We let him decide."
I just want to see how many threads we can start on this.
Hopefully this will help him get healthy. Would have been nice to have some added depth at guard in conference play, but I think we'll be just fine if we can keep playing at the level we've been at for the last couple weeks.
Wojo just confirmed it on the postgame. Wow, I really thought he was needed back.
Appropriate decision.
Per Wojo
Gives MU a senior PG for the next three seasons.
Wasn't sure where Greg's minutes were going to come from anyway. Of course, there will be just as big a log jam next year for minutes.
Quote from: skianth16 on December 18, 2018, 10:13:26 PM
Hopefully this will help him get healthy. Would have been nice to have some added depth at guard in conference play, but I think we'll be just fine if we can keep playing at the level we've been at for the last couple weeks.
Yes. As long as there are no injuries.
Just means Markus has to play a lot of minutes each game, like he has so far, he leads BE in minutes played.
Cain has been subbing for Markus only a few minutes a game, maybe that will increase just bit, but if Markus gets in foul trouble, that will hurt.
Elliott probably plays backup role next year behind Koby and Markus, as third guard and healthy. Then two years as a potential starter. Best of luck to his rehab and health.
Quote from: PTM on December 18, 2018, 10:16:10 PM
Gives MU a senior PG for the next three seasons.
I witnessed the 4 minutes of Elliot pg last year. I don't want to relive that.
Quote from: #UnleashMatt on December 18, 2018, 10:20:47 PM
I witnessed the 4 minutes of Elliot pg last year. I don't want to relive that.
Any PG is going to look bad when playing one handed.
Sucks for this season but I think is better for the program overall. I really like Greg's potential. We really didn't get to see what he was truly capable of last season due to the injury. I hope he gets healthy and comes out and shocks us all next fall.
I dig it.
Quote from: TSmith34 on December 18, 2018, 10:17:46 PM
Wasn't sure where Greg's minutes were going to come from anyway. Of course, there will be just as big a log jam next year for minutes.
I would have been happy to see all of Chartouny's minutes go to Elliot.
Does this open the possibility that Cain redshirts next year? Then Cain and Elliott play their last two years together.
Quote from: Boozemon Barro on December 18, 2018, 10:29:47 PM
I would have been happy to see all of Chartouny's minutes go to Elliot.
Koby?
He is a guard.......doesn't have to be a point guard to have an impact his last 3 seasons with all the different things he can do.
Wojo said in the press conference that once he got healthy it would have taken more time obviously to shake off the rust......after talking it over with his family they thought it would be better if he could finally play healthy starting next season.
Glad everybody is on the same page......would have loved to have him this season but you have to put the players interests first
This is where we need our 5th year PG to really step up. He's getting there, but we need him to be be able to provide at least 15 solid minutes per game in the Big East. His leadership and role on the team could make a big difference for us in the next few months.
Common-sense, mature decision for Elliott. Now we'll get 3 good years out of him.
The only other positive is that we don't have to speculate about it any more.
Very smart move by Greg. It is one thing to be cleared to play and it is another to be D1 level ready to play. Greg was slated for a major role this year and I am sure next year together with Koby and Markus we will have a very strong back court.
This also helps balance the classes. We will have 1 freshman (2 if Ike red shirts), 3 sophomores , 4 juniors and 4 seniors next year.
Quote from: Herman Cain on December 18, 2018, 11:29:31 PM
We will have 1 freshman (2 if Ike red shirts)
When Ike is done at Marquette, he can move in with Otule and Eschmeyer and they can take turns telling kids to get out of their yard.
Very smart move for everyone involved.
There will probably be a game or two where we will miss the depth, but again who knows how D1 ready GE would be coming back in any case. You know these guys live and breath to be on the court, so many props to GE for taking the decision that hopefully will serve him (and MU) in the long run. Hope he comes back 110%!
This is probably best for Greg. Not sure it is best for the team. And, if Markus or Joe go down, it can always be pulled. I did notice Sacar running the point for a couple of possessions last night.
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2018, 05:34:29 AM
This is probably best for Greg. Not sure it is best for the team. And, if Markus or Joe go down, it can always be pulled. I did notice Sacar running the point for a couple of possessions last night.
I don't know how sacars court vision is but I think his handle could certainly be good enough for PG. in the very least good enough to beat a press.
Wishing Greg a good recovery.
Can any of the walk-ons play point like Cam Marrotta?
Again, I think it is the right decision for Greg. From a team standpoint, I am now scared to death. Down to two guards. Every time Markus goes down in a heap after a drive, our collective hearts are going to be in our collective throats. I am flashing back to Marcus Jackson bringing the ball up the floor because Dameon Mason and Joe Chapman couldn't handle it. Sacar ran the point for a few possessions last night. Now picture that against SJU or any other team that pressures the ball. Oh, wait, that will be every team if Sacar is at the point.
Time to try some zone. Protect Markus on the defensive end from an endless stream of picks.
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2018, 06:23:52 AM
Again, I think it is the right decision for Greg. From a team standpoint, I am now scared to death. Down to two guards. Every time Markus goes down in a heap after a drive, our collective hearts are going to be in our collective throats. I am flashing back to Marcus Jackson bringing the ball up the floor because Dameon Mason and Joe Chapman couldn't handle it. Sacar ran the point for a few possessions last night. Now picture that against SJU or any other team that pressures the ball. Oh, wait, that will be every team if Sacar is at the point.
Time to try some zone. Protect Markus on the defensive end from an endless stream of picks.
To be fair that's the case whether Greg is suited up or not
We need Joe C to be who we thought he would be.
Time for Jamal to step up...not as a guard but as energy off the bench. Wish I knew why he gets so little time after decent last year? Must be a practice thing.
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2018, 06:23:52 AM
Again, I think it is the right decision for Greg. From a team standpoint, I am now scared to death. Down to two guards. Every time Markus goes down in a heap after a drive, our collective hearts are going to be in our collective throats. I am flashing back to Marcus Jackson bringing the ball up the floor because Dameon Mason and Joe Chapman couldn't handle it. Sacar ran the point for a few possessions last night. Now picture that against SJU or any other team that pressures the ball. Oh, wait, that will be every team if Sacar is at the point.
Time to try some zone. Protect Markus on the defensive end from an endless stream of picks.
Wildly disagree...injuries happen and while I will pray to whatever saint is the patron of sports injuries and crazy fandom that Markus stays healthy we can't change our defense now. We are who we are and we got to play that way. This team is way more prepared than the Marcus Jackson year simply because anyone of the Hausers, Chartouney, or Sacar in a pinch can bring the ball up.
Markus has to play smart but we got to dance with the girl that brought us.
Greg still needs his body to mature as he is so skinny, needs to add 20 pounds to that frame but that will not happen. Supposedly he gained 5 pounds, hope he
can add 5 more pounds this next year to get up to 180. Since MU already uses a 9 man rotation, maybe 10 with Matt sometimes it would be hard for him to get his
minutes. Chartonny will have to play better, but he is a turnover every minute it seems, and I mean bad turnovers. He has to improve. Looked good at times yesterday
then made 2 horrendous turnovers, maybe 3. He does play decent D and rebounds well, but the turnovers, ouch. Watched Buffalo, they play solid D, much like K State.
Marcus will have to have a big game, they play hard, and compete big time on the glass. They had like 17 offensive rebounds yesterday. This game will tell us how
MU will be in the Big East. Very quick and talented. Have to get the ball inside to Theo and Morrow, might be the best game at the Fiserv this year.
Also, any work on Eke, will he ever play again? If not, there is 2 open scholys for next year. Like to see them get a 6'5" slasher. Not sure about Cain or Bailey, being
that guy.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 19, 2018, 07:55:26 AM
Wildly disagree...injuries happen and while I will pray to whatever saint is the patron of sports injuries and crazy fandom that Markus stays healthy we can't change our defense now. We are who we are and we got to play that way. This team is way more prepared than the Marcus Jackson year simply because anyone of the Hausers, Chartouney, or Sacar in a pinch can bring the ball up.
Markus has to play smart but we got to dance with the girl that brought us.
He can always remove the redshirt in some sort of disaster scenario, right? I thought this was more of a media/fan message that he isnt likely to come back vs. something official.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on December 19, 2018, 07:58:22 AM
He can always remove the redshirt in some sort of disaster scenario, right? I thought this was more of a media/fan message that he isnt likely to come back vs. something official.
Yes, you can always remove the redshirt.
Sounds like the best move for Greg.
Barring injuries, we should be fine. If Joseph steps up his game, we should be more than fine. And for those who think he can't/won't, remember that many here were still down on guys like Lockett and Reinhardt at this point in their respective MU careers. Before they left, both helped in key BE wins.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 19, 2018, 08:12:11 AM
Sounds like the best move for Greg.
Barring injuries, we should be fine. If Joseph steps up his game, we should be more than fine. And for those who think he can't/won't, remember that many here were still down on guys like Lockett and Reinhardt at this point in their respective MU careers. Before they left, both helped in key BE wins.
Chartouny does not concern me. Injuries do.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 19, 2018, 07:35:50 AM
We need Joe C to be who we thought he would be.
Outside of the turnovers, he pretty much is what I thought he would be. I thought his role would be a little bigger but not much. 25-30 mpg, 5-7 ppg, 4-5 apg, solid defense, shooting about where he's at.
The turnovers have been a killer. But his per minute stats fit my expectations.
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2018, 08:28:37 AM
Chartouny does not concern me. Injuries do.
Fair enough. But if we have a key injury and Greg really is ready to play, they can always lift the redshirt.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 19, 2018, 08:46:43 AM
Fair enough. But if we have a key injury and Greg really is ready to play, they can always lift the redshirt.
That would be an interesting conundrum. I remember Cadougan did it with his achilles but then didn't play that many minutes. If, at the end of January for example, there was an injury to Markus or Chartouny, would/should Greg lift the red shirt?
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on December 19, 2018, 08:31:45 AM
Outside of the turnovers, he pretty much is what I thought he would be. I thought his role would be a little bigger but not much. 25-30 mpg, 5-7 ppg, 4-5 apg, solid defense, shooting about where he's at.
The turnovers have been a killer. But his per minute stats fit my expectations.
I guess the question are Wojo's expectations the same as yours?
He seems over his head to me.
If JC steals the Ball and turns it over on the fast break, not good.
He's got to hit the open 3.
He needs to hit his FTs—especially late in the game or Wojo will have to get him out.
I'm holding out for the improvement as the season progresses, but I think most thought he would be more (if he is what he is now).
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on December 19, 2018, 08:31:45 AM
Outside of the turnovers, he pretty much is what I thought he would be. I thought his role would be a little bigger but not much. 25-30 mpg, 5-7 ppg, 4-5 apg, solid defense, shooting about where he's at.
The turnovers have been a killer. But his per minute stats fit my expectations.
JoeC has been awful. He's a net-negative player, weighted down by a 37% turnover rate (!!!) which is worse in transition
(where it's at 60%). That is deadly.
how bad? Torvik tracks stats for 2208 qualifying players --
2,193 players are better at protecting the ball than Chartouny. He has the 2nd worst turnover rate of any player in a major conference.He's deadly.
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2018, 08:50:26 AM
That would be an interesting conundrum. I remember Cadougan did it with his achilles but then didn't play that many minutes. If, at the end of January for example, there was an injury to Markus or Chartouny, would/should Greg lift the red shirt?
Yes it would. IMHO, that would depend on (1) where the team was (on top of the BE heading for a 1-4 NCAA seed vs mid-pack), (2) how game-ready Greg looks, and (3) what Greg thinks about the situation.
If we are fighting for a championship and the docs/coaches feel Greg is
really ready to play full-tilt (NOT "
I'll give it my best shot" ready, like Junior or Dominic when they tried, but
really ready), then I'd support Greg's choice. If we aren't there yet, I'd keep him out.
Like it! Great for the program. Smart choice in Greg's part IMO.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 19, 2018, 08:56:28 AM
I guess the question are Wojo's expectations the same as yours?
First you said "we", as in Scoop. Now you are shifting the goalposts to "Wojo's expectations."
I can't speak for Wojo, so I'll only speak for myself.
The turnovers are crazy bad. But everything else is in line with what I expected. Reduce the TOs to a reasonable level and he is a solid role player.
I'm curious what other Scoopers were expecting. I suspect the most disappointed people set their expectations too high.
Quote from: NYWarrior on December 19, 2018, 08:58:33 AM
JoeC has been awful. He's a net-negative player, weighted down by a 37% turnover rate (!!!) which is worse in transition (where it's at 60%). That is deadly.
how bad? Torvik tracks stats for 2208 qualifying players -- 2,193 players are better at protecting the ball than Chartouny. He has the 2nd worst turnover rate of any player in a major conference.
He's deadly.
Yes, turnovers have been outrageous. A fatal flaw. Get that under control and all will be well.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on December 19, 2018, 09:25:23 AM
Yes, turnovers have been outrageous. A fatal flaw. Get that under control and all will be well.
Now that is bad, hard to believe that the coaching staff did not see this on film or he has regressed that badly in one year. They even told him to shoot the ball yesterday, but his turnovers were grade school type plays.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 19, 2018, 09:32:16 AM
Now that is bad, hard to believe that the coaching staff did not see this on film or he has regressed that badly in one year. They even told him to shoot the ball yesterday, but his turnovers were grade school type plays.
His turnover rate was 15.9% last year. It is 37.9% this year. I hope this is him pressing too hard and trying to do too much at a new school and not that he can't step up competition wise. But if you look at his bad turnover games, they aren't just against major schools. He looked good against Louisville and Wisconsin (in limited minutes) but bad against Charleston Southern and again last night.
I think he has been disappointing, but I can still see a path for him to recover and a role for him in the line up.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2018, 09:40:42 AM
His turnover rate was 15.9% last year. It is 37.9% this year. I hope this is him pressing too hard and trying to do too much at a new school and not that he can't step up competition wise. But if you look at his bad turnover games, they aren't just against major schools. He looked good against Louisville and Wisconsin (in limited minutes) but bad against Charleston Southern and again last night.
I think he has been disappointing, but I can still see a path for him to recover and a role for him in the line up.
I question his basketball IQ. I can see an improvement, can not get worse in my mind. Last night was ridiculous.
The prospect of injury to one of our current guards without GE coming back is a concern, but we do have the benefit of Sam and Joey having the ability to help bring the ball up against pressure. I'm not suggesting they are going to blow by anybody, but they can certainly be relief valves against pressure, have good vision with their height and have ball handling skills. It would require some adjustments, but we do have some tools that could help in the event of an injury. Hopefully, that doesn't occur and Chartouny shores up his game so it is a non-issue.
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 19, 2018, 10:05:43 AM
The prospect of injury to one of our current guards without GE coming back is a concern...
Why are so many people worried about this? He can play if there is an injury...and GE is not going to get a ton of time in the current rotation anyway (unless there is an injury). Seems like a low risk-high reward decision for the kid...minimal downside to kid & MU if disaster strikes and multiple other options as you reference.
Quote from: Fluffy Blue Monster on December 19, 2018, 09:40:42 AM
But if you look at his bad turnover games, they aren't just against major schools. He looked good against Louisville and Wisconsin (in limited minutes) but bad against Charleston Southern and again last night.
His TO rate is 38% vs top 100 teams; 30% vs top 50 teams. Both are miserable.
Not the least bit concerned about our depth, or quality thereof.
We have enough good to very good players to win the Big East and advance in the NCAAs.
Also not especially worried about Chartouny. I think he ultimately will prove to be a solid contributor.
We're 9-2, playing well, ranked in the top-20. We have several good wins, no bad losses, two of the BEast's very best players, one of the league's best freshmen. We're playing the improved defense everybody clamored for, and we rebound very well. Markus and Sam seem to have found their shooting eye again. And our coaching staff is doing a fine job.
As Al would say: Seashells and balloons, baby! And as AR would say: R-E-L-A-X!
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 19, 2018, 07:58:05 AM
Like to see them get a 6'5" slasher.
See McEwen, Koby. He's only 6'4" but he was brought in for his ability to get to the hole
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 19, 2018, 10:40:51 AM
he was brought in for his ability to get to the hole
Hoo boy ... in before the silliness.
Quote from: tower912 on December 19, 2018, 08:50:26 AM
That would be an interesting conundrum. I remember Cadougan did it with his achilles but then didn't play that many minutes. If, at the end of January for example, there was an injury to Markus or Chartouny, would/should Greg lift the red shirt?
Not to dig up old dirt, but the decision to un-redshirt Cadougan had repercussions that are still felt today. Since JC played his freshman season, he then became ineligible for a fifth year. His fifth year would have been Buzz' last year when we tanked, in large part because we had limited guard play. Our starting guards were Derrick Wilson and Todd Mayo. They could have been Cadougan and Vander Blue. If Cadougan and/or Blue stay, that season goes much better and maybe Buzz doesn't leave.
So what I'm saying is...the coaches should look three years into the future before they decide to pull Greg's redshirt.
"Redshirt" isn't a thing, it's just a term for someone who doesn't play a single second. If Markus or JC went down in the next couple of weeks (or Monty's), Greg could play.
"Redshirt" isn't a thing, it's just a term for someone who doesn't play a single second."
Yes so it actually is a thing....the thing is that a decision has been made to not play a player this season......yes it can be changed at anytime....see Jacob Epperson.......but most of the time it isn't.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on December 19, 2018, 10:56:06 AM
So what I'm saying is...the coaches should look three years into the future before they decide to pull Greg's redshirt.
Most coaches don't even know if they will be employed in the same capacity or by the same institution 3 years in the future. I think you always make the best decision for the kid/univ for today and let the rest work it self out.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on December 19, 2018, 10:56:06 AM
Not to dig up old dirt, but the decision to un-redshirt Cadougan had repercussions that are still felt today. Since JC played his freshman season, he then became ineligible for a fifth year. His fifth year would have been Buzz' last year when we tanked, in large part because we had limited guard play. Our starting guards were Derrick Wilson and Todd Mayo. They could have been Cadougan and Vander Blue. If Cadougan and/or Blue stay, that season goes much better and maybe Buzz doesn't leave.
So what I'm saying is...the coaches should look three years into the future before they decide to pull Greg's redshirt.
Buzz was gone either way. Even if that last season was great Buzz wasn't staying for all numbers of reasons.....he'd essentially stopped recruiting for MU the season before
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on December 19, 2018, 09:23:15 AM
First you said "we", as in Scoop. Now you are shifting the goalposts to "Wojo's expectations."
I can't speak for Wojo, so I'll only speak for myself.
The turnovers are crazy bad. But everything else is in line with what I expected. Reduce the TOs to a reasonable level and he is a solid role player.
I'm curious what other Scoopers were expecting. I suspect the most disappointed people set their expectations too high.
YOU gave your expectations. YOU gave your thoughts on JC. My question was is your satisfaction and fulfillment of JCs expectations the same as Wojo's?, Since his is the only one that matters.
I don't think it is, and I Also think you in the minority in your satisfaction of JC.
Quote from: We R Final Four on December 19, 2018, 11:59:01 AM
YOU gave your expectations. YOU gave your thoughts on JC. My question was is your satisfaction and fulfillment of JCs expectations the same as Wojo's?, Since his is the only one that matters.
I don't think it is, and I Also think you in the minority in your satisfaction of JC.
I'll do a breakout Chartouny thread later. Let's keep this thread on target.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on December 19, 2018, 09:23:15 AM
.
The turnovers are crazy bad. But everything else is in line with what I expected. Reduce the TOs to a reasonable level and he is a solid role player.
yep, I agree with you. I believe it's taken him much longer to fit in, but it will happen as the Big East games begin. Seem grad transfers have a varying time in adjusting. Just placing too much pressure on themselves. Just a matter of time, looks like Morrow in starting to settle in and he's been here a little longer than Joe C. I'm happy he's here.
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on December 19, 2018, 12:21:52 PM
I'll do a breakout Chartouny thread later. Let's keep this thread on target.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/rcqtfj0RAhWLu/giphy.gif)
Quote from: MuMark on December 19, 2018, 11:27:38 AM
"Redshirt" isn't a thing, it's just a term for someone who doesn't play a single second."
Yes so it actually is a thing....the thing is that a decision has been made to not play a player this season......yes it can be changed at anytime....see Jacob Epperson.......but most of the time it isn't.
Nope.
Quote from: BCHoopster on December 19, 2018, 09:32:16 AM
Now that is bad, hard to believe that the coaching staff did not see this on film or he has regressed that badly in one year. They even told him to shoot the ball yesterday, but his turnovers were grade school type plays.
What bugs me is that after getting a steal for a breakaway, he slows down at about the FT line and then either gets the shot blocked or commits a turnover.
Quote from: SaveOD238 on December 19, 2018, 10:56:06 AM
Not to dig up old dirt, but the decision to un-redshirt Cadougan had repercussions that are still felt today. Since JC played his freshman season, he then became ineligible for a fifth year. His fifth year would have been Buzz' last year when we tanked, in large part because we had limited guard play. Our starting guards were Derrick Wilson and Todd Mayo. They could have been Cadougan and Vander Blue. If Cadougan and/or Blue stay, that season goes much better and maybe Buzz doesn't leave.
So what I'm saying is...the coaches should look three years into the future before they decide to pull Greg's redshirt.
I think this team could use Greg Elliott a lot more than that team needed Junior, too. I did not like Junior playing at the end of his freshman season. It felt like we were trading a year of him at his highest level for a few minutes of PT at his lowest. But that is purely selfish thinking on my part. You have to think first and foremost what the player wants to do, I think. Maybe Junior wouldn't have hung around after 4 years anyway. Maybe he would have transferred somewhere else (was the grad transfer available then?) If Greg is fully on board with this, then good for him and good for us. Hope he just gets fully healed and is ready to go gangbusters next year.
Wojo gave Joseph miles of rope last night. Several of his TOs were unacceptable. I appreciate that Wojo remains positive and optimistic in public. My hope is that he threatened to put him on the ND bus back to Dakota. We really need him to get his head out of his arse.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 19, 2018, 02:16:19 PM
So Sacar is not a redshirt junior?
And Wojo was obviously mistaken when he said that Elliott would be redshirting this season.....
He is just being his usual nitpicking self.......
Elliott will in all likelihood will not play this year because the school and Greg's family decided it was in his best interest to Redshirt.....the term is used to describe what is happening to Elliott .....as we all know it can also be used in situations like what happened with Sacar.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 19, 2018, 10:40:51 AM
See McEwen, Koby. He's only 6'4" but he was brought in for his ability to get to the hole
Nh or h variety?
Quote from: jsglow on December 19, 2018, 01:51:07 PM
Wojo gave Joseph miles of rope last night. Several of his TOs were unacceptable. I appreciate that Wojo remains positive and optimistic in public. My hope is that he threatened to put him on the ND bus back to Dakota. We really need him to get his head out of his arse.
Ya that sounds like a good way to increase his confidence. Bravo coach
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on December 19, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
Nh or h variety?
New Hampshire variety? I don't believe so. New Hampshire may practically be Canada but McEwen is definitely a Canuck
Quote from: MU82 on December 19, 2018, 10:41:36 AM
Hoo boy ... in before the silliness.
Nads, yur startin' ta sound like an alta cocker, aina?
4ever
I always like when Alta cocker can be worked into a conversation. Have to agree, he is sounding like one.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 19, 2018, 07:11:49 PM
Nads, yur startin' ta sound like an alta cocker, aina?
Doc, you're starting to sound unintelligible. Oh wait ... starting?