I know its only been three games, but before you know it, it will be five.
Prior to the season, from what was discussed, from prior statistics and from the fact both played Division I hoops, I honestly thought:
Morrow - would be the PF that MU needed so badly over the years. Someone who would be an intimidator, play defense and rebounds with authority. His big Ten stats were very impressive and he would complement Sam Hauser on the front line, letting Sam go back to the SF position. So far, Morrow has looked like a reserve on a Div II team. I can't put my finger on it, but is he slow, clumsy, whatever? He has played three games and has three total rebounds. He has seven turnovers......Wojo has benched him most of the time.
Joe C. - I guess he was the playmaker, the point guard, the defensive specialist, the 6ft 3 200 lb big guard MU needed. Well, thats not working out too good. When you are on the bench, you can't guard anybody. Like Morrow, he has seen a lengthy bench time and through three games he has yet to score a field goal, yes, not one basket. He has four total points on free throws.
Again, its only been three games, but with what we have observed, it is apparent to this point that expectations might be a tad bit high. Things might changed, but along with the other pre season hyped player Bailey, MU is getting nothing at this point from three players expected to make a huge difference to this season.
Were the expectations too high and do you think they can turn something around?
Some subsequent poster will point out that Carlino, Lockette,Rhienhardt(sp) all took a while to get going and wound up making great contributions. True.
The IU transfer from St. Mary's didn't seem to have the problem our transfers do, why is that? Honest question....
Just got in from the game.
Morrow is no good, undersized, under athletic, and has zero offensive accumen. He was supposed to be able to rebound?, does he have one this year?
Chatouney struggled the first two games but i thought he was solid tonight. Made some really nice passes and no turnovers that i recall. Marcus is every bit as horrendous at point guard this year as he has been the last two. Chartouney must play PG or this season is over. Chartouney plays good intial on ball defense against the opposing point guard. Howard allows him to run down the lane. Chartouney also guarded Langford at timess and hung with him. Is he a great dynamic scorer? Heck no, but if he started tonight we are prolly not down 15 at the first tv timeout because our PG cannot dribble n trys to split double teams the whole time
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 14, 2018, 10:40:58 PM
undersized
He's 6'7' 235. That's undersized? Damn. If he isn't any good how did he put up 9 points and 7 rebounds a game in the Big 10?
Quote from: Mutaman on November 14, 2018, 10:56:53 PM
He's 6'7' 235. That's undersized? Damn. If he isn't any good how did he put up 9 points and 7 rebounds a game in the Big 10?
I've been trying to figure that out. Something is off there. He was much better at Nebraska.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 14, 2018, 10:40:58 PM
Just got in from the game.
Morrow is no good, undersized, under athletic, and has zero offensive accumen. He was supposed to be able to rebound?, does he have one this year?
Chatouney struggled the first two games but i thought he was solid tonight. Made some really nice passes and no turnovers that i recall. Marcus is every bit as horrendous at point guard this year as he has been the last two. Chartouney must play PG or this season is over. Chartouney plays good intial on ball defense against the opposing point guard. Howard allows him to run down the lane. Chartouney also guarded Langford at timess and hung with him. Is he a great dynamic scorer? Heck no, but if he started tonight we are prolly not down 15 at the first tv timeout because our PG cannot dribble n trys to split double teams the whole time
I agree with everything you said about Chartouney. He absolutely needs to start and play big minutes. The team can't start a road team against a good opponent by kicking the ball away on 3 of the first 4 possessions.
Joe's on ball defense alone makes a big difference. And, offensively he can set the table for others. Howard is far better off the ball on both ends of the floor. I am sorry but Markus is not a point guard, and Wojo, being one, should know that.
Morrow, I'll give him some more time.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 14, 2018, 10:56:53 PM
He's 6'7' 235. That's undersized? Damn. If he isn't any good how did he put up 9 points and 7 rebounds a game in the Big 10?
he didnt play the 5.
Agree with some others that JC is the key piece to this team. He needs to play because he is the only PG on the roster. I think he'll gain some confidence over the next few games.
Ed looks terrible. Looks and plays about 6'4. Concerning for a fourth year junior.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on November 14, 2018, 11:01:16 PM
he didnt play the 5.
Well that doesn't mean "he isn't any good".
Quote from: Mutaman on November 14, 2018, 11:08:14 PM
Well that doesn't mean "he isn't any good".
undersized for his position. Never said he wasnt good. but he didnt play 5 thst much at nebrasketball.
Quote from: 94Warrior on November 14, 2018, 10:58:59 PM
I agree with everything you said about Chartouney. He absolutely needs to start and play big minutes. The team can't start a road team against a good opponent by kicking the ball away on 3 of the first 4 possessions.
Joe's on ball defense alone makes a big difference. And, offensively he can set the table for others. Howard is far better off the ball on both ends of the floor. I am sorry but Markus is not a point guard, and Wojo, being one, should know that.
Morrow, I'll give him some more time.
Joe can dribble but can not make a play off the dribble, that is playing 4 on 5. Did not take or really look for his shot, that is 3 games I have seen so far and has not
made a shot. Hard to believe. Markus showed he has a long way to go to becoming a point guard. Let him learn from the first 5 minutes of the game. This is what
these early season games are for. Indiana playing in Milwaukee would not have shot 65 percent, but at home, in front of 17,000, it can and did.
We don't need him to shoot, we need him to facilitate and slow down the other teams point guard. He does those two things better than anyone on the roster.
joe C is a big Derrick Wilson. No shot, slow, but a better passer. Right now he clearly has no confidence. He needs to start and get minutes.
I don't see any spark of anything in Morrow . He doesn't play big, can't board, doesn't get position, nothing special on D, has no hops and is very slow. he deserves splinters.
Quote from: 94Warrior on November 14, 2018, 11:21:13 PM
We don't need him to shoot, we need him to facilitate and slow down the other teams point guard. He does those two things better than anyone on the roster.
I played point, and was smaller than Rowsey, but if they played off me I could shoot the ball so they had to play me straight up. When we played a point that did not
have any O, and there was many I doubled the best player and that effectively took that player out of the game. Can not play with a point that shows no O, even Derrick and Junior could score a tad. Sure he can bring the ball up the court but to me he is out of his league, not sure how he scored 12 a game at Fordham, They
must have really sucked.
Morrow averaged 9 and 7 on a Nebraska team that finished 12-19. Juan Anderson averaged 8 and 6 on that first Wojo team. It's too early to call Morrow a bust, but perhaps his sophomore numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
Quote from: DCHoopster on November 14, 2018, 11:32:29 PM
I played point, and was smaller than Rowsey, but if they played off me I could shoot the ball so they had to play me straight up. When we played a point that did not
have any O, and there was many I doubled the best player and that effectively took that player out of the game. Can not play with a point that shows no O, even Derrick and Junior could score a tad. Sure he can bring the ball up the court but to me he is out of his league, not sure how he scored 12 a game at Fordham, They
must have really sucked.
I agree with all of this. Joe is needed for his ball-handling and defense, but if he continues to pose zero scoring threat, Markus or Sam will be double teamed all year long. Although at this point, that might be a better pill to swallow than having Markus running point and turning the ball over so often.
Joe not starting and having no confidence, Jamal's limited playing time and limited offensive production, Morrow and Bailey struggling to find roles on the team.... these all point at Wojo in my opinion. Lots of things need to improve for us to contend in the Big East, and Wojo may be the most important right now.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 15, 2018, 02:45:12 AM
I agree with all of this. Joe is needed for his ball-handling and defense, but if he continues to pose zero scoring threat, Markus or Sam will be double teamed all year long. Although at this point, that might be a better pill to swallow than having Markus running point and turning the ball over so often.
Joe not starting and having no confidence, Jamal's limited playing time and limited offensive production, Morrow and Bailey struggling to find roles on the team.... these all point at Wojo in my opinion. Lots of things need to improve for us to contend in the Big East, and Wojo may be the most important right now.
There was a quote from Coach Miller earlier this week in the Indy paper relating how surprised he was that his guys haven't fallen victim to the typical early season pathology plaguing many good teams....namely, of failure to really move on offense and rotate the basketball. When I read this, I knew trouble was on the horizon, as our offense has indeed showed these tell-tale early flaws. Many cupcake-fed examples of over- dribbling and ball-stagnation. Against the UMBCs and Bethune-Cookmans of the world, it didn't matter. Coach Miller also succeeded in making Markus a passer alright....right to the guys in the cream and crimson.
Multiple Choice Question
What is our takeaway from yesterday?
1.) Our defense is in its normal mid-season form.
2.) We've got a coach who knows how to get the best out of his players.
3.) Kansas will punk us more than its IU IU.
4.) Its gonna be a long year, we'll be lucky to squeak into the tourney.
5.) Our recruits continually under perform their ranking due to poor coaching.
6.) We'll turn it around this next week, the game was a one off.
7.) We don't need to worry about our coach bolting for Duke.
8.) Yesterday was really really bad for the BEAST. Our "two top ranked" teams got both got embarrassed and dismantled on national TV.
9.) Coach can mange and recruit a team well, but he is a terrible terrible game and fundamentals teacher and motivator.
10.) How many games can someone play without losing a year of eligibility?
11.) Again this year - we are so unlucky that each opponent has its best shooting day against us
12.) Again this year the refs hate us and don't call it both ways.
13.) At least it was over early so that we could go to bed and get a good nights sleep.
This is all on Wojo. He looks like a deer in the headlights and his defense sucks ass. I questioning his talent evaluating ability and his ability to field a complete, high major competitive team. MU looked lost and completely out coached by Archie. Look for Kansas and Louisville/Tennessee to lay another embarassing ass kicking on Wojo.
Quote from: Research Report on November 15, 2018, 12:59:24 AM
Morrow averaged 9 and 7 on a Nebraska team that finished 12-19. Juan Anderson averaged 8 and 6 on that first Wojo team. It's too early to call Morrow a bust, but perhaps his sophomore numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
Don't use basic stats, they will lead you astray
Markus without a handle = No NBA
so I wonder if he was promised point guard minutes toward this end.
Right now MU needs a different PG and the NBA will find other guys.
Ed looks tentative and lost on the floor, like he's still trying to figure out where to be. He's gotten called for traveling way too many times and doesn't appear to be in the right position.
Joe's just not BEast speed, though his defense is needed.
Patience. The alternative is to cancel the rest of the season.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on November 14, 2018, 11:01:16 PM
he didnt play the 5.
He primarily played the 5. That was one of the reasons he decided to transfer.
I agree with everything being said about both thus far but I'll reserve judgement until later in the season. I remember watching Rowsey struggle in his first few games. Lockett and Reinhardt were the same way. Some kids just take longer to adjust
Thus far, the game is moving too quickly for some of MU's new faces. Lots of time to improve upon that.
Quote from: manny31 on November 14, 2018, 10:28:03 PM
Some subsequent poster will point out that Carlino, Lockette,Rhienhardt(sp) all took a while to get going and wound up making great contributions. True.
The IU transfer from St. Mary's didn't seem to have the problem our transfers do, why is that? Honest question....
JC's early numbers are anemic compared to those guys. In a quick check, Carlino had 32 points and 17 assists in his first 3 games. JC has 4 FTs and 4 assists. Lockett had 24 points and 14 rebounds in his first 3 (his issue was about turnovers early). Did not look up Katin as he had that foot/leg injury that bothered him until he broke out against UW.
Curious, what are our adjusted expectations for the season? To begin the year I was thinking 15 - 20 in the rankings, top 3 finish in the Big East and some reserved excitement about potentially making it to the second weekend of the NCAA tourney.
Now...I think i will just be happy to make the tourney.
the worst part is for the last 4 years and i was able to convince myself that "better year's were ahead.
1. Wojo would install his system
2. Wojo would have "his guys"
3. Wojo's guys would become upperclassmen
All of the things above have happened....and the product is not good. now real sure where to go from here.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 15, 2018, 09:20:51 AM
Curious, what are our adjusted expectations for the season? To begin the year I was thinking 15 - 20 in the rankings, top 3 finish in the Big East and some reserved excitement about potentially making it to the second weekend of the NCAA tourney.
Now...I think i will just be happy to make the tourney.
the worst part is for the last 4 years and i was able to convince myself that "better year's were ahead.
1. Wojo would install his system
2. Wojo would have "his guys"
3. Wojo's guys would become upperclassmen
All of the things above have happened....and the product is not good. now real sure where to go from here.
No change. You don't adjust season expectations on a game by game basis. Your initial expectations are about where mine were and currently are, other than the ranking, where I see us finishing just inside the top 25.
We have 3, potentially 4 games against ranked teams as well as Wisconsin coming up in the next few weeks. Joe C and Ed better get going we need them. We're basically a 3 man team right now. Wojo should play Ed and Joe C 30 minutes against Presbyterian to get them acclimated as much as possible.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 15, 2018, 09:20:51 AM
Curious, what are our adjusted expectations for the season? To begin the year I was thinking 15 - 20 in the rankings, top 3 finish in the Big East and some reserved excitement about potentially making it to the second weekend of the NCAA tourney.
Now...I think i will just be happy to make the tourney.
the worst part is for the last 4 years and i was able to convince myself that "better year's were ahead.
1. Wojo would install his system
2. Wojo would have "his guys"
3. Wojo's guys would become upperclassmen
All of the things above have happened....and the product is not good. now real sure where to go from here.
No change; and I think your current expectations are whacked.
Quote from: Research Report on November 15, 2018, 12:59:24 AM
Morrow averaged 9 and 7 on a Nebraska team that finished 12-19. . . . It's too early to call Morrow a bust, but perhaps his sophomore numbers should be taken with a grain of salt.
Here is a Nebraska perspective on Morrow:
1. When Ed is healthy, he is a beast. The problem is that his body (e.g., his feet) can't tolerate the power his muscles can generate. So, he only lasted a half-season, each of his first two years at Nebraska, before being mostly-sidelined by foot injuries. Here's guessing that injuries (probably to his feet) are his problem now.
2. Ed has always played the 5. That was true throughout high school, and that was true at Nebraska. All his stats at Nebraska came from the 5 position. One reason he left Nebraska is that he wanted to play the 4 and was never going to get that opportunity at Nebraska. The problem is that his ball-handling skills are not adequate for the 4 position.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 15, 2018, 10:23:06 AM
No change; and I think your current expectations are whacked.
What do you think of my pre-Indiana expectations?
Quote from: JakeBarnes on November 14, 2018, 11:12:19 PM
undersized for his position. Never said he wasnt good. but he didnt play 5 thst much at nebrasketball.
He primarily played the 5 at Nebraska and that is one of the main reasons he transferred.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on November 15, 2018, 09:20:51 AM
the worst part is for the last 4 years and i was able to convince myself that "better year's were ahead.
1. Wojo would install his system
2. Wojo would have "his guys"
3. Wojo's guys would become upperclassmen
All of the things above have happened....and the product is not good. now real sure where to go from here.
There's got to be a clear common denominator here. If only we could figure out what the problem is...
What is it with some of our fanbase? Why do we write off players so quickly? Have we not learned anything from rowsey, katin, carlino, lockett?
Reading several threads here, we're already moving on from Joe, Morrow, Bailey.
Jeez.
Quote from: JakeBarnes on November 14, 2018, 11:12:19 PM
undersized for his position. Never said he wasnt good. but he didnt play 5 thst much at nebrasketball.
"Morrow is no good"
Mr Sand Knit
Quote from: Swan88 on November 15, 2018, 12:54:01 PM
Here is a Nebraska perspective on Morrow:
1. When Ed is healthy, he is a beast. The problem is that his body (e.g., his feet) can't tolerate the power his muscles can generate. So, he only lasted a half-season, each of his first two years at Nebraska, before being mostly-sidelined by foot injuries. Here's guessing that injuries (probably to his feet) are his problem now.
2. Ed has always played the 5. That was true throughout high school, and that was true at Nebraska. All his stats at Nebraska came from the 5 position. One reason he left Nebraska is that he wanted to play the 4 and was never going to get that opportunity at Nebraska. The problem is that his ball-handling skills are not adequate for the 4 position.
Thanks. really good informative post.
Quote from: tower912 on November 15, 2018, 07:59:32 AM
Patience. The alternative is to cancel the rest of the season.
So many on this board rip our student section for their perceived lack of loyalty and failure to show up through thick and thin. Now the good kids that make up this team, who laid one stinky egg, are torn apart...fodder for the genius armchair talent scouts and coaches... Question: If you were a student at MU who reads Scoop and all this sky-is-falling negativity... would you want to support this team? We sucked major azz..no shiite. We caught a buzzsaw on their home floor*. Happens....especially in November. As has been stated here..,an annual early-season stinker during the reign of the Hillbilly did little to diminish belief in our coach and program . Where were the Chicken Littles then? I knowIknow...but now it's Year 5 whipped by Year 2, IU was down 3 players... yadda yadda.
Yes, we looked unprepared in every sense. On Wojo, and I'm his biggest fan. He and his guys WILL have all of us eating crow in the near future. Count on that. And please shove this post in my face at the end of the year if we don't meet expectations. Our coaches and players are accountable, Scoop posters should be as well.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 15, 2018, 11:39:31 PM
Yes, we looked unprepared in every sense. On Wojo, and I'm his biggest fan. He and his guys WILL have all of us eating crow in the near future. Count on that. And please shove this post in my face at the end of the year if we don't meet expectations. Our coaches and players are accountable, Scoop posters should be as well.
Honest question - what has Wojo done to make you a fan of his?
In the Wojo era, we come out unprepared far too often, other teams adjust much better mid game while we continue with the same subpar gameplan more often than not, our defense has been one of the worst from a high major, and our offense feels very one dimensional. His teams come out flat too often for my liking, and they don't have the same fight and competitive edge we've seen from the MU teams we knew and loved.
Now this year he seems to have a hard time knowing where all the pieces should fit, despite having a highly touted roster that he built. I just don't see what others seem to see in this guy.
As to your comments about him being a winner, I'm not so sure that he is. Hes been a part of winning programs, but he hasn't proven much on his own yet, at least not on the floor.
Coach Krzyzewski, coach Wooden, coach Carril, coach Wojciechowski are similar, they are or were not coach Buzz.
The selection committee got exactly what they wanted, no drama, don't expect more from the team in the game than they are capable of, and good grades.
The team is definitely playing within themselves.
When they tried to run with the big dogs they got embarrassed.
They will find their grove and it will be basketball by the numbers.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 15, 2018, 11:39:31 PM
So many on this board rip our student section for their perceived lack of loyalty and failure to show up through thick and thin. Now the good kids that make up this team, who laid one stinky egg, are torn apart...fodder for the genius armchair talent scouts and coaches... Question: If you were a student at MU who reads Scoop and all this sky-is-falling negativity... would you want to support this team? We sucked major azz..no shiite. We caught a buzzsaw on their home floor*. Happens....especially in November. As has been stated here..,an annual early-season stinker during the reign of the Hillbilly did little to diminish belief in our coach and program . Where were the Chicken Littles then? I knowIknow...but now it's Year 5 whipped by Year 2, IU was down 3 players... yadda yadda.
Yes, we looked unprepared in every sense. On Wojo, and I'm his biggest fan. He and his guys WILL have all of us eating crow in the near future. Count on that. And please shove this post in my face at the end of the year if we don't meet expectations. Our coaches and players are accountable, Scoop posters should be as well.
Sadly, that's the nature of humanity. It's easier to criticize and tear down than to empathize and support.
That said, Wojo has had time. One game a season or a coach does not make. However five years of games, well, that's another thing. I hope you're correct. I hope this team turns it around. If not, it's time to be realistic about the program and who is running it.
Wojo has definite positives. Everyone does. Everyone also has negatives. For example, Wojo in the huddle is a negative. I cringe everytime! Maybe it is not insightful or indicative of his coaching style. Five years of so-so play, not getting the most out of his guys from a defensive and hustle standpoint, makes me wonder though. Are those stupid huddles a sign of Wojo's coaching? I don't know. Did you see Archie actually coaching (like most other coaches) and not just awkwardly restating the same phrase over and over with unnatural pauses.
Maybe Wojo just isn't a motivator of men. The problem is, at this level, motivation is as important as X's and O's, or as recruiting. Buzz had all three. He also was a phony who became sold on the idea of himself, which led to pushing boundaries so as to be able to continue that idea. Wojo can recruit. Can he do the X's and O's? Can he motivate? Five years in, sadly I am thinking maybe he can't. That's a reality.
While he's our coach, I'll continue to support him and this squad. Criticism is okay as long as it is reasonable and fair and not simply one-sided. Bottom line: I think this is a make or break season for Coach, even if the break doesn't necessarily mean a firing. But all the pieces are here. It's time to show up.
Also, I think that fresh flour tortillas made with real lard are amazing.
Coaching is not done on game day and I think Wojo understands that. He also understands the capabilities of his players. Now the team knows what playing at a very high level means. The question is, are they capable of taking it up a few notches or can they be more deciplined and play within themselves and win? Those are questions not knowable from sideline "motivational" rants.
Quote from: NorthernDancerColt on November 15, 2018, 11:39:31 PMAs has been stated here..,an annual early-season stinker during the reign of the Hillbilly did little to diminish belief in our coach and program . Where were the Chicken Littles then?
They were here, complaining the same way. Honestly, I think it was worse then. After Dayton, Florida, Green Bay, it was the same or worse.
And they were after Crean, too. Recency bias being what it is, so many forget that there was an annual kvetch fest every year about Buzz and his....
Early season losses
Schtick
Being team bubble watch
His team defense
His unwillingness to play freshman who didn't understand the team defense that no one liked
His offense early in the year that he hadn't put in yet because they were spending all of their time on a defense that the freshmen couldn't play and nobody liked.
Free throws and time spent practicing them
His roster composition
If he was job hunting
His time outs
His in game adjustments.
Inability to develop players
Bottom line, fans turn into whiners when their teams lose.
I am not giving up on Morrow. I am hopeful that by BE time he will be the player I expected him to be.
Quote from: Goose on November 16, 2018, 07:33:51 AM
I am not giving up on Morrow. I am hopeful that by BE time he will be the player I expected him to be.
Of all things so far this season he has been my biggest concern. I'm not giving up on him either.
TAMU
I did not have crazy expectations for Joe C., but admit I did for Morrow. To date, a big disappointment. Still believe he will be a contributor this season. If not, it could be a long year.
I hope Wojo gives both these guys a ton of run tomorrow. Let them shake the dust. Start them if need be. Give them 25 minutes plus. We need both of these guys next week.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 15, 2018, 07:15:17 AM
This is all on Wojo. He looks like a deer in the headlights and his defense sucks ass. I questioning his talent evaluating ability and his ability to field a complete, high major competitive team. MU looked lost and completely out coached by Archie. Look for Kansas and Louisville/Tennessee to lay another embarassing ass kicking on Wojo.
I am not ready to throw in the towel yet. I agree that he clearly has issues. If we get smoked in NYC then I will be concerned for the BE season, no matter how weak folks think the conference may be. I do not expect us to beat Kansas, but a respectable performance is important. If Kansas pounds us like IU did then I will wonder if this team has the ability to hang with high majors.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 16, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
I am not ready to throw in the towel yet. I agree that he clearly has issues. If we get smoked in NYC then I will be concerned for the BE season, no matter how weak folks think the conference may be. I do not expect us to beat Kansas, but a respectable performance is important. If Kansas pounds us like IU did then I will wonder if this team has the ability to hang with high majors.
I was expecting a loss at IU not a pounding, but I was expecting a pounding from Kansas before IU.
IMO, it is more important for Chartouny to get going than Morrow. We have an abundance of forwards. EM being bad all year gives more time to BB, JH, Theo, and Cain. Right now, there is no other option than Chartouny. If he becomes the player we thought he would be when he grad transferred, the team will be much better for it. A big PG who plays defense, distributes the ball, hit the occasional jumper to keep the defense honest. Which allows MH to play off of the ball. That is the dream. Right now, with GE out, it makes sense to bring JC off of the bench. But getting him into the flow is vital going forward.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 16, 2018, 10:49:20 AM
I am not ready to throw in the towel yet. I agree that he clearly has issues. If we get smoked in NYC then I will be concerned for the BE season, no matter how weak folks think the conference may be. I do not expect us to beat Kansas, but a respectable performance is important. If Kansas pounds us like IU did then I will wonder if this team has the ability to hang with high majors.
Kansas is going to pound a lot of teams this season. If we can hang with them, I will be encouraged about our prospects. If we get pounded, it doesn't change my expectations for the season, just keeps them from growing. Goal in NYC is to go 1-1. If we get pounded by Kansas but then turn around and pound Louisville, I think that is a solid outcome.
https://fordhamsports.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=8736
This is the guy MU needs to emerge.
Both Chartouney (Fordham 9-22) and Morrow (Nebraska 12-19) came from teams with losing records.
I mentioned that in August.
Quote from: 94Warrior on November 14, 2018, 10:58:59 PM
I agree with everything you said about Chartouney. He absolutely needs to start and play big minutes. The team can't start a road team against a good opponent by kicking the ball away on 3 of the first 4 possessions.
Joe's on ball defense alone makes a big difference. And, offensively he can set the table for others. Howard is far better off the ball on both ends of the floor. I am sorry but Markus is not a point guard, and Wojo, being one, should know that.
Morrow, I'll give him some more time.
I thought this thread would pick up steam after the Presbyterian game. But, nothing???? If you don't have something negative to say, don't say anything at all, right?
In the 2nd half Chartouny was the guy we were all hoping for. Won SOTG and made the team much better in the time he played.
Morrow was very effective at times, as well. If we begin to get those types of contributions on a regular basis, we can reach the lofty expectations many of had for this team.
Go Warriors!
As Chartouny's shots started falling and his confidence began to come back you could almost see the monkey being lifted off of his back.
Many people have said Chartouney did it in a losing team against bad competition. I think that is lazy and over simplifying it. One only needs to click on that link to see that he put up some really big numbers in the points, steals, assists, and rebound categories against some big time teams. 18 points at WVU, 14 at Florida State, 28 at Dayton, at Davidson etc etc. kids gonna be a real keeper. Start him n ride him wojo!!
Quote from: vogue65 on November 16, 2018, 06:29:48 AM
Coaching is not done on game day and I think Wojo understands that. He also understands the capabilities of his players. Now the team knows what playing at a very high level means. The question is, are they capable of taking it up a few notches or can they be more deciplined and play within themselves and win? Those are questions not knowable from sideline "motivational" rants.
I would add after listening to Wojo, that he understood what needed to be done against IU. He told the guys what needed to be done. He then added that they felt embarrassed and should be. I think Wojo understands what needs to be done, I don't think Wojo understands how to get the guys ready to implement the game plan. Maybe it's how he runs practice, maybe it's expectations, maybe, maybe. We won't know. What we do know is that he says what appears to be an effective strategy, but what's proven out in a handful of big games is that our team often doesn't hold to that plan. Unfortunately at this level there is less of the trust the process. At 12, yeah, develop and trust the process. At 20, it's time to win regularly. Luckily, we have a long way to go this season, and I'm not throwing in the towel. Many big games left, they will most certainly improve over the course of the year.
In all likelihood this team goes as far as Chartouny can take them. I'm ready to live or die by his play - mainly because there just isn't any alternative. This is why I think he needs to be a 25-30 minute a night guy.
As much as we want Markus to be a PG, as much as Wojo wants him to be a PG, as much as HE wants to be a PG, he just isn't that. Until/if Elliot comes back, I think it is clear that there is no "next best" option for PG on this team - we might be able to scrape by with our combo-gaurds/point forwards for a few 4 minute stretches here and there, but for the most part the keys need to be squarely in Chartouny's hands.
Quote from: 1SE on November 19, 2018, 08:13:31 AM
In all likelihood this team goes as far as Chartouny can take them. I'm ready to live or die by his play - mainly because there just isn't any alternative. This is why I think he needs to be a 25-30 minute a night guy.
As much as we want Markus to be a PG, as much as Wojo wants him to be a PG, as much as HE wants to be a PG, he just isn't that. Until/if Elliot comes back, I think it is clear that there is no "next best" option for PG on this team - we might be able to scrape by with our combo-gaurds/point forwards for a few 4 minute stretches here and there, but for the most part the keys need to be squarely in Chartouny's hands.
This. JoeC needs to be starting
Joe C
Howard
Sam
Joey
Theo
To expand: I love sacars game. But JoeC and Sacar's Defense is going to be interchangeable. We don't need chart to score a ton. We need 4-6 points a game from him. To keep D's honest.
This opens Howard and Sam up.
This whole comparison to Derrick Wilson or 4-6 points a game is ludicrous. Do u guys think the baskets are larger or the 3 point line is closer at Fordham??!? The guy scored double digits and shot 35% from 3 last year. And arguably took more forced shots than he will have to this year. He may not shoot as much this year but i expect his shooting percentages to be higher as he is going to have better spacing and taking better shots.
If he doesnt start against Kansas i fear Wojo just isnt the guy.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 19, 2018, 09:49:21 AM
This whole comparison to Derrick Wilson or 4-6 points a game is ludicrous. Do u guys think the baskets are larger or the 3 point line is closer at Fordham??!? The guy scored double digits and shot 35% from 3 last year. And arguably took more forced shots than he will have to this year. He may not shoot as much this year but i expect his shooting percentages to be higher as he is going to have better spacing and taking better shots.
If he doesnt start against Kansas i fear Wojo just isnt the guy.
He shot 28% from 3 last year. 38% the year before that.
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 19, 2018, 10:17:23 AM
He shot 28% from 3 last year. 38% the year before that.
As long as he's enough of a threat to keep defenses honest. Hopefully the tape of the last 11 minutes of the Presbyterian game forms part of the "Scout MU" package.
I like Sacar a lot, and I think he's made great strides. I like a "D" lineup that includes them both (and Theo). But MU's ceiling is much more dependent on Chartouny's ceiling than Sacar's.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 19, 2018, 09:49:21 AM
This whole comparison to Derrick Wilson or 4-6 points a game is ludicrous. Do u guys think the baskets are larger or the 3 point line is closer at Fordham??!? The guy scored double digits and shot 35% from 3 last year. And arguably took more forced shots than he will have to this year. He may not shoot as much this year but i expect his shooting percentages to be higher as he is going to have better spacing and taking better shots.
If he doesnt start against Kansas i fear Wojo just isnt the guy.
I agree with all of this. Chartouny can still be a pass first guy and be capable of scoring 10-12 points per game. If we don't see him getting 20-25 minutes for the remainder of the year, I'll be very surprised. He seems to have his feet wet now and has his confidence back. If this team gets back to scoring 80-90 points regularly, I can easily see him averaging 10 points in conference play. If he doesn't start against KU, Wojo will have some 'splainin to do.
Quote from: skianth16 on November 19, 2018, 10:28:43 AM
I agree with all of this. Chartouny can still be a pass first guy and be capable of scoring 10-12 points per game. If we don't see him getting 20-25 minutes for the remainder of the year, I'll be very surprised. He seems to have his feet wet now and has his confidence back. If this team gets back to scoring 80-90 points regularly, I can easily see him averaging 10 points in conference play. If he doesn't start against KU, Wojo will have some 'splainin to do.
Which Scooper is Wojo incognito again?
Quote from: MUeagle1090 on November 19, 2018, 10:17:23 AM
He shot 28% from 3 last year. 38% the year before that.
Ok with the ball in his hands and the focal part of the other teams defense. Point is he aint no derrick wilson and just in the presbyterian game, you know he is only going to take good shots. Last year at firdham he took the bailout shots. This year it will be sam or Markus. 38% his sophomore year indicates he can make a shot.
So as i have said all along comparing a guy that shot 38% from 3 to derrick wilson is just plain stupid and hoping a guy that scored 12 a game in a sliwdown offense can score 4-6 in a high powered offense is equally so.
I know KenPom numbers don't mean too much after only four games, but at this point last season we ranked 61st in TO%. This year we are 276th.
It starts with the PG, but goes for the whole damn team.
Take care of the basketball. The rest will come.
Quote from: barfolomew on November 19, 2018, 01:56:33 PM
I know KenPom numbers don't mean too much after only four games, but at this point last season we ranked 61st in TO%. This year we are 276th.
It starts with the PG, but goes for the whole damn team.
Take care of the basketball. The rest will come.
Yes. This has been the most concerning thing IMHO. Gotta shore that up
It really boils down to Markus takes his atrociuos tos away n its not bad. 13 for him in the last two games alone
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 19, 2018, 05:39:47 PM
It really boils down to Markus takes his atrociuos tos away n its not bad. 13 for him in the last two games alone
True, though I hadn't noticed until I just looked it up now, our two big men have been really bad with the TOs as well. John has 11, 4 less than Markus, despite playing 54 less minutes than Markus. Morrow has 9 in only 37 minutes of work. That's a TO every 4 minutes! I know some of that has been offensive fouls and others have been shuffling feet under the bucket. Need to get those cleaned up as well.
Joe has also turned the ball over at a higher rate than Markus with 6 TOs in only 75 minutes. But I'm less worried there. He had one bad game with 4 in 19 minutes and was fine in that department in the other three games.
With Markus I'm just hoping that the Presbyterian game was an aberration. He got shocked in Indiana with 3 TOs in the first 90 seconds and then played the rest of the game with only 1. The first two games he was fine. Presbyterian was a trainwreck for him. What's interesting is that in that game I felt like he was really focused on passing the ball. He didn't attempt his first shot until 10 minutes in. Think this backs up the argument that he is at his best when he can play off the ball.
I went back and looked at the play by play for Markus to see what kind of turnovers Markus was giving up. 5 of them were steals by the Blue Hose, 3 of them by Davon Bell, that is ugly.
Theo John has to be fed the ball in the right space on the court. One thing I learned a long time ago, but from someone who knows, only give the ball to big guy if he is in position to succeed.
Quote from: Goose on November 19, 2018, 06:20:49 PM
Theo John has to be fed the ball in the right space on the court. One thing I learned a long time ago, but from someone who knows, only give the ball to big guy if he is in position to succeed.
That always reminds me of Chris Otule, for whom that was especially important. I hated when guys tried to fire no-look passes into him. Dude had one eye, you need that pass to be precision and at the exact right point, not some flashy thing that could easily be bundled out of bounds.