Ok, two cupcakes down. Now a real test. Though Bailey starts, IMHO Cain has been playing lights out over him. Cain has been gathering rebounds, hitting three's blocking shots. The guy is doing it. A Jimmy Butler in the making. People reach there upside over time. With W & Ls on the line now, one has to go with who is getting it done on the court during game time. That is Cain IMHO.
We are lucky to have both. Doesn't matter who starts. It matters who plays best.
I've been big Cain and Theo fan all along. While I think Cain should have a bigger role, I do kind of like him as a sneaky 8 man in the rotation -keep him low profile, no one scouts him, then he comes in and drops a few with that silky sweet stroke from the corner. Million dollar move, million dollar shot.
I'm pretty sure Cain is scouted just fine.
But having someone come in to provide offense and energy off the bench isn't unheard of. Some players are better in limited roles. Maybe that's how Wojo views him. Maybe Wojo wanted to see more of Bailey and Joey v. cupcakes.
It will all play out.
cain didn't take 2 years off to fulfill a promise he had with himself. thurl jr. will be just fine as the year plays out
Quote from: WarriorFan on November 11, 2018, 06:39:27 AM
We are lucky to have both. Doesn't matter who starts. It matters who plays best.
This.
The kid who plays the best will get the majority of minutes, especially in crunch time.
I know that for some kids starting matters, but for the team it really doesn't. A good coach can articulate that to kids - can tell them about the value of McHale, Vinnie Johnson, Havlicek, Livingston, all the guys who willingly came off the bench and helped their teams win championships.
IMHO, managing egos is at least as big a part of coaching today as X's and O's. Maybe even bigger.
Joey hasn't played a ton since the summer before his senior year in high school. Bailey hasn't played in two years. Both are showing both rust and immense potential. Right now, Bailey is quicker than Joey. He is longer and thicker than Cain. And right now, Cain and Joey are playing better offense. So. By starting Bailey next to Sam, Wojo is putting length and speed out there and someone who isn't really looking for his shot right now. By playing Joey and Cain together, it makes easier to sit Sam for a few minutes by putting two forwards in who, combined, bring what he brings.
In other words, balance. Rolling a second unit out that has absolutely no drop off. And, bringing the two freshman forwards off the bench may not work.
And finally, with this team, starters don't matter. Wait to see who is on the floor at crunch time.
Wojo has already said he has nine or ten guys of starting caliber. Great problem to have. When the subs bring as much as the starters, you've got fresh legs through most of the game.
I'd like to keep seeing more Cain as the games get bigger
That said, starting Bailey and having Cain and Joey off the bench has made sense too
Right now, I think Cain has been the better of the two. His corner three is near automatic and he's a phenomenal rebounder. Both have good quickness and the ability to use that to make up for any defensive miscues, but I'll trust the guy with a year in the system over the one that just walked through the door.
That said, I love having both. Good problem to have.
Love Bailey's length and getting hands out into shooters on d (Jamal too). At this point the big diff for me is Jamal's ability to board. Excellent bounce
Personally don't like the move of starting Bailey over Cain. The incumbent in the program should get the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe Bailey is tearing it up in practice, yet, thus far it hasn't translated to games.
Both are great prospects, but Cain should be a 20+ minute player on this team regardless of Bailey.
right now cain>bailey
Quote from: tower912 on November 11, 2018, 08:57:58 AMRight now, Bailey is quicker than Joey. He is longer and thicker than Cain.
Agree with your post, except for the "thicker" part. Both Bailey and Cain are on the lean side. But Cain looks like the stronger of the two, which may give him an edge in rebounding and post-up defense. If you go by the roster, Cain (6-7/195) has 5 more pounds on a slightly shorter frame than Bailey (6-8/190). Last year, Cain was listed at 190.
As multiple posters have stated, I'm glad we have them both. Jamal and Brendan are two of our most athletic, talented and exciting players -- and they've only begun to tap their potential.
Glad to have them both. Maybe it is the hair. Cain still looks very thin to me.
I think Bailey earned his starting spot with defense. He's very good on that end. Cain looks improved from last season on that end and is definitely superior on offense so far. Nice to have them both.
Quote from: 1SE on November 11, 2018, 07:04:12 AM
I've been big Cain and Theo fan all along. While I think Cain should have a bigger role, I do kind of like him as a sneaky 8 man in the rotation -keep him low profile, no one scouts him, then he comes in and drops a few with that silky sweet stroke from the corner. Million dollar move, million dollar shot.
Sacar seems to have found his shot as well.
Quote from: GoldenEagle323 on November 11, 2018, 03:06:07 PM
right now cain>bailey
Cain sophomore, Bailey freshman after 2 year mission. I think Wojo is smart giving Bailey playing time; Cain has a years experience under his belt and will be seeing plenty of playing time.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 11, 2018, 12:25:07 PM
Love Bailey's length and getting hands out into shooters on d (Jamal too). At this point the big diff for me is Jamal's ability to board. Excellent bounce
Cain has more athletism than Bailey. Bailey is 6-8 with shorter arms and is not very quick. He has good instincts and a high IQ, but athletic he is not. I think most would rate his athleticism...jumping sprinting and lateral movement as about average D1.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 11, 2018, 01:02:47 PM
The incumbent in the program should get the benefit of the doubt.
Which helps explain your unabashed support of Derrick over Dawson!
Quote from: KfBob on November 12, 2018, 11:13:20 PMCain has more athletism than Bailey. Bailey is 6-8 with shorter arms and is not very quick. He has good instincts and a high IQ, but athletic he is not. I think most would rate his athleticism...jumping sprinting and lateral movement as about average D1.
Brendan hasn't shown it yet in a game. But he had several impressive blocks and dunks in scrimmages during the open practices. Kid has some hops. Being part of a regular strength and conditioning program will help, as well.
Quote from: Marcus92 on November 13, 2018, 12:41:47 AM
Brendan hasn't shown it yet in a game. But he had several impressive blocks and dunks in scrimmages during the open practices. Kid has some hops. Being part of a regular strength and conditioning program will help, as well.
This is why i wouldn't be surprised if cain started tomorrow
Quote from: KfBob on November 12, 2018, 11:13:20 PM
Cain has more athletism than Bailey. Bailey is 6-8 with shorter arms and is not very quick. He has good instincts and a high IQ, but athletic he is not. I think most would rate his athleticism...jumping sprinting and lateral movement as about average D1.
Disagree. Bailey is very athletic (watch some of his highlight videos), although maybe just not as athletic as Cain.
Quote from: Tha Hound on November 13, 2018, 09:21:16 AM
Disagree. Bailey is very athletic (watch some of his highlight videos), although maybe just not as athletic as Cain.
Agreed, Bailey looks quite athletic, the block at the end of the UMBC game was one piece of evidence. However, he doesn't seem to have an overly-quick first step or explosive leaping ability, and his breakaway speed out on the break hasn't been overly impressive.
Granted, these are all very small sample sizes against below-par competition, so tough to draw a ton from anything to date.
Cain is scoring points. Bailey isn't. But we don't need the points early against Indiana. We need to set a defensive tone.
Start Bailey, start JoeC.
Quote from: MU82 on November 11, 2018, 08:39:16 AM
This.
The kid who plays the best will get the majority of minutes, especially in crunch time.
I know that for some kids starting matters, but for the team it really doesn't. A good coach can articulate that to kids - can tell them about the value of McHale, Vinnie Johnson, Havlicek, Livingston, all the guys who willingly came off the bench and helped their teams win championships.
IMHO, managing egos is at least as big a part of coaching today as X's and O's. Maybe even bigger.
[/quoteAnd don't forget the guy who essentially invented the position, the late, great Frank Ramsey.
Quote from: MU82 on November 12, 2018, 11:46:39 PM
Which helps explain your unabashed support of Derrick over Dawson!
Haha. Fair. Yet, there are exceptions to every rule.
Particularly when the player plays ~32 minutes per game for his Junior and Senior seasons and graduated with a career stats of 11 made 3-point shots, on 17% shooting, while shooting 42% from the field and 45% from the FT Line.
8-)
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 13, 2018, 11:46:25 AM
Haha. Fair. Yet, there are exceptions to every rule.
Particularly when the player plays ~32 minutes per game for his Junior and Senior seasons and graduated with a career stats of 11 made 3-point shots, on 17% shooting, while shooting 42% from the field and 45% from the FT Line.
8-)
You guys. Come on. This can't be happening again.
I think Wojo has enough players where he is looking to have balance lineups. He can bring players from the bench and keep same intensity in offense and defense. Plus we don't know how lineups would have looked like with GE healthy.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on November 13, 2018, 10:17:22 AM
Agreed, Bailey looks quite athletic, the block at the end of the UMBC game was one piece of evidence. However, he doesn't seem to have an overly-quick first step or explosive leaping ability, and his breakaway speed out on the break hasn't been overly impressive.
Granted, these are all very small sample sizes against below-par competition, so tough to draw a ton from anything to date.
I would characterize Bailey as a highly coordinated big man, but he is not a pogo stick like Jamal. Over time I see Brendan evolving into a 2 and creating a lot of match up probables for opponents. Eventually we want both Jamal and Bailey on the court at the same time.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 13, 2018, 01:53:57 PM
I would characterize Bailey as a highly coordinated big man, but he is not a pogo stick like Jamal. Over time I see Brendan evolving into a 2 and creating a lot of match up probables for opponents. Eventually we want both Jamal and Bailey on the court at the same time.
To do that takes the Hausers OFF the court.
At one point during the the Bethune-Cookman game, I believe Brendan and Jamal were playing together in the same lineup. But I don't remember anything more specific than that.
Quote from: tower912 on November 13, 2018, 02:19:17 PM
To do that takes the Hausers OFF the court.
Mr Dodds says Joey can play the 5.
Quote from: Herman Cain on November 13, 2018, 03:08:14 PM
Mr Dodds says Joey can play the 5.
Joey playing the 5 in both of the last two games also says that Joey can play the 5
Quote from: fjm on November 13, 2018, 12:14:02 PMYou guys. Come on. This can't be happening again.
This has happened so many times that it's become commonplace. Practically expected, even. Perhaps it's preordained? Are all MUScoop arguments predetermined by a higher power? Or are Scoopers the masters of our destinies? Fate versus free will, discuss.
Quote from: fjm on November 13, 2018, 12:14:02 PM
You guys. Come on. This can't be happening again.
I couldn't resist. Apologies to the board.
Quote from: Floorslapper on November 13, 2018, 11:46:25 AM
Haha. Fair. Yet, there are exceptions to every rule.
Particularly when the player plays ~32 minutes per game for his Junior and Senior seasons and graduated with a career stats of 11 made 3-point shots, on 17% shooting, while shooting 42% from the field and 45% from the FT Line.
8-)
Thanks, Ners, for (mostly) taking what I said in the manner in which I meant it.
Quote from: Marcus92 on November 13, 2018, 03:25:13 PM
This has happened so many times that it's become commonplace. Practically expected, even. Perhaps it's preordained? Are all MUScoop arguments predetermined by a higher power? Or are Scoopers the masters of our destinies? Fate versus free will, discuss.
All leads to Arby's