MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: Coleman on August 24, 2018, 10:52:26 AM
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Not trying to be political.
A true American hero. Thanks for your service John. I didn't vote for you, but I would not regret it if I had. You always had the country's best interests at heart.
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It is a terrible disease.
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Just because I disagreed with his politics doesn't mean I ever had anything but respect for the man. Thanks for your service. Godspeed.
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I think the word "hero" is overused but not for McCain. I highly encourage reading David Foster Wallace's piece on McCain for Rolling Stone in 2000, if only for his thoughtful meditation on what McCain's life as a POW must have been like:
You probably already know what happened. In October of ’67 McCain was himself still a Young Voter and flying his 23rd Vietnam combat mission and his A-4 Skyhawk plane got shot down over Hanoi and he had to eject, which basically means setting off an explosive charge that blows your seat out of the plane, which ejection broke both McCain’s arms and one leg and gave him a concussion and he started falling out of the skies right over Hanoi. Try to imagine for a second how much this would hurt and how scared you’d be, three limbs broken and falling toward the enemy capital you just tried to bomb. His chute opened late and he landed hard in a little lake in a park right in the middle of downtown Hanoi, Imagine treading water with broken arms and trying to pull the life vest’s toggle with your teeth as a crowd of Vietnamese men swim out toward you (there’s film of this, somebody had a home – movie camera, and the N.V. government released it, though it’s grainy and McCain’s face is hard to see). The crowd pulled him out and then just about killed him. U.S. bomber pilots were especially hated, for obvious reasons. McCain got bayoneted in the groin; a soldier broke his shoulder apart with a rifle butt. Plus by this time his right knee was bent 90-degrees to the side with the bone sticking out. Try to imagine this. He finally got tossed on a jeep and taken five blocks to the infamous Hoa Lo prison – a.k.a. the “Hanoi Hilton,” of much movie fame – where they made him beg a week for a doctor and finally set a couple of the fractures without anesthetic and let two other fractures and the groin wound (imagine: groin wound) stay like they were. Then they threw him in a cell. Try for a moment to feel this. All the media profiles talk about how McCain still can’t lift his arms over his head to comb his hair, which is true. But try to imagine it at the time, yourself in his place, because it’s important. Think about how diametrically opposed to your own self-interest getting knifed in the balls and having fractures set without painkiller would be, and then about getting thrown in a cell to just lie there and hurt, which is what happened. He was delirious with pain for weeks, and his weight dropped to 100 pounds, and the other POWs were sure he would die; and then after a few months like that after his bones mostly knitted and he could sort of stand up they brought him in to the prison commandant’s office and offered to let him go. This is true. They said he could just leave. They had found out that McCain’s father was one of the top-ranking naval officers in the U.S. Armed Forces (which is true – both his father and grandfather were admirals), and the North Vietnamese wanted the PR coup of mercifully releasing his son, the baby-killer. McCain, 100 pounds and barely able to stand, refused, The U.S. military’s Code of Conduct for Prisoners of War apparently said that POWs had to be released in the order they were captured, and there were others who’d been in Hoa Lo a long time, and McCain refused to violate the Code. The commandant, not pleased, right there in the office had guards break his ribs, rebreak his arm, knock his teeth out. McCain still refused to leave without the other POWs. And so then he spent four more years in Hoa Lo like this, much of the time in solitary, in the dark, in a closet-sized box called a “punishment cell.” Maybe you’ve heard all this before; it’s been in umpteen different media profiles of McCain. But try to imagine that moment between getting offered early release and turning it down. Try to imagine it was you. Imagine how loudly your most basic, primal self-interest would have cried out to you in that moment, and all the ways you could rationalize accepting the offer. Can you hear it? It so, would you have refused to go? You simply can’t know for sure. None of us can. It’s hard even to imagine the pain and fear in that moment, much less know how you’d react.
But, see, we do know how this man reacted. That he chose to spend four more years there, in a dark box, alone, tapping code on the walls to the others, rather than violate a Code. Maybe he was nuts. But the point is that with McCain it feels like we know, for a proven fact, that he’s capable of devotion to something other, more, than his own self-interest.
Full piece: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/david-foster-wallace-on-john-mccain-the-weasel-twelve-monkeys-and-the-shrub-194272/
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I think the word "hero" is overused but not for McCain.
I agree entirely. We have few heroes in today's times. McCain is one.
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I've heard an "interesting" spin on McCain. I heard this from someone who has been in the military and also comes from a military family.
The story is that before McCain was a POW, he had a terrible accident on an aircraft carrier. Supposedly, he did not follow safety protocol of some sort while operating his jet on deck, and this resulted in the death(s) of Navy personnel. Supposedly this was a court martial offense, but McCain got out of it due to his father being a wealthy, high ranking Navy officer (admiral I believe).
Has anyone else heard this story?
For me, even if true, does not diminish or minimize in any way what he went through as a POW.
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I've heard an "interesting" spin on McCain. I heard this from someone who has been in the military and also comes from a military family.
The story is that before McCain was a POW, he had a terrible accident on an aircraft carrier. Supposedly, he did not follow safety protocol of some sort while operating his jet on deck, and this resulted in the death(s) of Navy personnel. Supposedly this was a court martial offense, but McCain got out of it due to his father being a wealthy, high ranking Navy officer (admiral I believe).
Has anyone else heard this story?
For me, even if true, does not diminish or minimize in any way what he went through as a POW.
Looks like fake news...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/john-mccain-fire-uss-forrestal/
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/aug/07/blog-posting/posts-blame-john-mccain-deadly-1967-fire-aboard-us/
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It is a terrible disease.
My Dad died of brain cancer - it's generally fast moving and lethal.
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I've heard an "interesting" spin on McCain. I heard this from someone who has been in the military and also comes from a military family.
The story is that before McCain was a POW, he had a terrible accident on an aircraft carrier. Supposedly, he did not follow safety protocol of some sort while operating his jet on deck, and this resulted in the death(s) of Navy personnel. Supposedly this was a court martial offense, but McCain got out of it due to his father being a wealthy, high ranking Navy officer (admiral I believe).
Has anyone else heard this story?
For me, even if true, does not diminish or minimize in any way what he went through as a POW.
It has been many years since I read the Navy report on that accident (Google Forrestal fire), and I no longer have access to the reports, However, from memory, McCain was awaiting takeoff on the carriers flight deck when a Zuni missile from a plane accidentally fired due to an electrical surge and hit other planes, igniting a jet fuel fire. I don't believe it was McCain's plane that had the missile fire, but I really don't know for sure, as that was not something I was looking at.
I do know that the main issue with that incident was the lack of the ability to fight a major flight deck conflagration.
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Looks like fake news...
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/john-mccain-fire-uss-forrestal/
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/aug/07/blog-posting/posts-blame-john-mccain-deadly-1967-fire-aboard-us/
Yes, its a conspiracy theory that has been floating around since as early as 1999.
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I see that Senator McCain has not yet been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Frankly, I can't think of too many things more important for the President to attend to. I'd fly out this weekend and pay the proper respect.
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I see that Senator McCain has not yet been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Frankly, I can't think of too many things more important for the President to attend to. I'd fly out this weekend and pay the proper respect.
Apparently, there are a few things you are not aware of.
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Apparently, there are a few things you are not aware of.
You know what jockey? We're trying to have a respectful discussion here. Something you are wholly incapable of in my experience.
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I see that Senator McCain has not yet been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Frankly, I can't think of too many things more important for the President to attend to. I'd fly out this weekend and pay the proper respect.
McCain doesn't want the President to visit him let alone attend his funeral.
McCain has already asked that Presidents Obama & W. Bush give his eulogy.
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McCain doesn't want the President to visit him let alone attend his funeral.
McCain has already asked that Presidents Obama & W. Bush give his eulogy.
Didn't know. Thanks.
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I see that Senator McCain has not yet been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Frankly, I can't think of too many things more important for the President to attend to. I'd fly out this weekend and pay the proper respect.
I agree with you. But I wouldn't hold my breath that this happens...
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You know what jockey? We're trying to have a respectful discussion here. Something you are wholly incapable of in my experience.
Despite your nasty remark, I will reply.
I am dumbfounded as to what I said that was disrespectful. Maybe you could tell me.
What makes you think Trump would give McCain a medal that he absolutely deserves? Trump detests McCain. When asked about him, he said McCain was NOT a war hero. The McCain family has told Trump that he will not be welcome at the funeral.
I did not say these things in the original post because they are all common knowledge.
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It has been many years since I read the Navy report on that accident (Google Forrestal fire), and I no longer have access to the reports, However, from memory, McCain was awaiting takeoff on the carriers flight deck when a Zuni missile from a plane accidentally fired due to an electrical surge and hit other planes, igniting a jet fuel fire. I don't believe it was McCain's plane that had the missile fire, but I really don't know for sure, as that was not something I was looking at.
I do know that the main issue with that incident was the lack of the ability to fight a major flight deck conflagration.
This is correct, he was in the Skyhawk that got hit with the accidental rocket...had to jump clear of his aircraft on to a deck below the flight deck.
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Despite your nasty remark, I will reply.
I am dumbfounded as to what I said that was disrespectful. Maybe you could tell me.
What makes you think Trump would give McCain a medal that he absolutely deserves? Trump detests McCain. When asked about him, he said McCain was NOT a war hero. The McCain family has told Trump that he will not be welcome at the funeral.
I did not say these things in the original post because they are all common knowledge.
Your position is common knowledge here brandy. You don't need to repeat it for the 10,000th time, especially using someone's quote as a launching point. Had you not quoted me I would have simply glossed over it. Thanks. Have a pleasant weekend.
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This is correct, he was in the Skyhawk that got hit with the accidental rocket...had to jump clear of his aircraft on to a deck below the flight deck.
I know someone who was on the Forrestal when this happened.
Thanks to all for the input.
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True American hero. We need more people like him.
Prayers for him and his family during this difficult time.
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My Dad died of brain cancer - it's generally fast moving and lethal.
So did my mom.
Thank you Senator McCain for your service to our country. You led wisely and showed great class in times of great stress.
And, I voted him in 2008. When he lost to President Obama, he showed an enormous amount of class and dignity that's sorely lacking at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue today.
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So did my mom.
Thank you Senator McCain for your service to our country. You led wisely and showed great class in times of great stress.
And, I voted him in 2008. When he lost to President Obama, he showed an enormous amount of class and dignity that's sorely lacking at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue today.
^^ ban dis guy
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And, I voted him in 2008. When he lost to President Obama, he showed an enormous amount of class and dignity that's sorely lacking at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue today.
At a campaign rally, McCain also corrected a woman who was ranting that Obama was a Muslim. It was the honorable thing to do, and probably cost him a not insignificant number of votes.
I think the respect was mutual considering McCain has requested Obama and W deliver his eulogy.
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Apparently, there are a few things you are not aware of.
Stop, note that no other president gave the award out either. This isn’t about the idiot in office now, it is about the Senator.
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^^ ban dis guy
ban me???????
Lil ole me?
When did my middle name become dchicosgies?
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At a campaign rally, McCain also corrected a woman who was ranting that Obama was a Muslim. It was the honorable thing to do, and probably cost him a not insignificant number of votes.
I think the respect was mutual considering McCain has requested Obama and W deliver his eulogy.
I remember that well and you’re right, it probably did cost him votes. Mutual respect. 2008 feels like a lifetime ago doesn’t it.
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^^ ban dis guy
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2WoB6zcu-RPdmJ-IOCCshZGFnhLN-6bOxd1tPUqVgbJ-eObRJ)
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^^ ban dis guy
Hypocrite.
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Stop, note that no other president gave the award out either. This isn’t about the idiot in office now, it is about the Senator.
Wow, you guys take my comments way too seriously. I joked that even though McCain deserved the honor, it wouldn't happen because Trump detests McCain.
It really was that simple. I took no position.
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Just passed away. RIP
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Just passed away. RIP
RIP.
Cantankerous old coot, but died with the same class with which he lived.
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RIP to a good man.
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McCain doesn't want the President to visit him let alone attend his funeral.
McCain has already asked that Presidents Obama & W. Bush give his eulogy.
They should be two very interesting eulogies by former POTUS's.
McCain, a leader with character, RIP.
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RIP to a good man.
This. I sometimes agreed and sometimes disagreed with the Senator - but i always admired his courage, principle and sense of duty/service. RIP indeed.
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RIP. Never agreed with his run for President but that doesn't matter nor did it define him. He is a hero and was a great Senator. We need more like him.
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For me, McCain's gentle but pointed response to the woman who called Obama an "Arab" will always be one of the most memorable moments of any political campaign ever.
I didn't always agree with him politically, and Palin was a disaster (which of course he grew to know), but he was a true hero and a great patriot.
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For me, McCain's gentle but pointed response to the woman who called Obama an "Arab" will always be one of the most memorable moments of any political campaign ever.
I didn't always agree with him politically, and Palin was a disaster (which of course he grew to know), but he was a true hero and a great patriot.
“Palin was a disaster” seems political. Ban dis guy
MU82 believes the dead are just rotten body parts. Weird, sad dude who continues to put his tiny middle finger up at the rules
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MU82 believes the dead are just rotten body parts. Weird, sad dude who continues to put his tiny middle finger up at the rules
You are a pretty sick dude.
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“Palin was a disaster” seems political. Ban dis guy
MU82 believes the dead are just rotten body parts. Weird, sad dude who continues to put his tiny middle finger up at the rules
Hypocrite.
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I often disagreed with McCain, but I feel he generally did what he believed was right. That's more than can be said about many of his colleagues. We could use more of his ilk. Rest in peace.
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“Palin was a disaster” seems political. Ban dis guy
No, it's just one of those self-evident statements, like "the sun is hot", "water is wet", or "Notre Dame sucks."
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RIP
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MU82 believes the dead are just rotten body parts. Weird, sad dude who continues to put his tiny middle finger up at the rules
The majority of the time when discussing someones religious believes in comparison to my atheism it's a healthy conversation with genuine curiosity on both parties part and, even though we won't ever agree on the subject, mutual respect and concern for the other person. Seems that if the subject ever came up with McCain this would be the type of conversation we'd have.
Sometimes though, as in your case, "christians" believe that anyone who thinks differently is wrong. I'd imagine that the same conversation with Palin would result in her calling someone who thinks differently 'sad'. When people go down the "i'm right and you think differently and therefore are wrong" path I specifically ask them to prove it. I have proof that the dead indeed are rotten body parts. Do you have proof that the dead are more than that? If not, don't you have to accept that others thoughts on the subject are more than plausible?
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“Palin was a disaster” seems political. Ban dis guy
MU82 believes the dead are just rotten body parts. Weird, sad dude who continues to put his tiny middle finger up at the rules
Personal attacks are also against the rules...
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Let’s stay on topic. Yesterday the world lost a great man, who served his country with deep commitment throughout his entire life, often in ways we can’t even comprehend.
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For me, McCain's gentle but pointed response to the woman who called Obama an "Arab" will always be one of the most memorable moments of any political campaign ever.
2 things about that video clip, for me:
1. How "Arab" is supposed to be an insult
2. The clip demonstrates a perfect fork-in-the-road for political discourse. Unfortunately, we chose to base our politics more on the woman's perspective than McCain's.
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“Palin was a disaster” seems political. Ban dis guy
MU82 believes the dead are just rotten body parts. Weird, sad dude who continues to put his tiny middle finger up at the rules
C'mon JB.
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McCain's impulse was to have Lieberman as his VP and try to lead from the middle-ish. That ticket would have tempted me. RIP
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C'mon JB.
JB tends to make a lot of posts like these late on Saturday nights. Draw your own conclusions.
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Ha ha
https://twitter.com/codykeenan (https://twitter.com/codykeenan)
Met John McCain once. I was a 22 year old senate intern waiting for an elevator. The doors opened, and he and another GOP senator were inside. I apologized and said I'd want for the next one, but McCain told me to hop on. 1/3
"Who do you work for," he asked.
"Ted Kennedy, sir."
"He's a good man," McCain said. "Without him, we're lost." 2/3
The other Senator scoffed in disgust and got off the elevator at the next floor. While he was still in earshot, McCain raised his voice a little and said, "Don't mind him. He's an pretty boy." *
And that's the time I met John McCain.
*Scoop's profanity filter disliked McCain's quote. He said a-hole.
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Ha ha
https://twitter.com/codykeenan (https://twitter.com/codykeenan)
Met John McCain once. I was a 22 year old senate intern waiting for an elevator. The doors opened, and he and another GOP senator were inside. I apologized and said I'd want for the next one, but McCain told me to hop on. 1/3
"Who do you work for," he asked.
"Ted Kennedy, sir."
"He's a good man," McCain said. "Without him, we're lost." 2/3
The other Senator scoffed in disgust and got off the elevator at the next floor. While he was still in earshot, McCain raised his voice a little and said, "Don't mind him. He's an pretty boy." *
And that's the time I met John McCain.
*Scoop's profanity filter disliked McCain's quote. He said a-hole.
I also met him in the elevator as a Senate intern. Even though he was mid-convo with one of his staffers, he stopped, said hi, and cracked a couple jokes on the short ride down a few floors. You could tell how natural he put people at ease.
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A great American who made his mark on history, as a member of the military, senate and as a man. They don't make many of these any more.
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McCain's impulse was to have Lieberman as his VP and try to lead from the middle-ish. That ticket would have tempted me. RIP
Me too. I still think Obama would have won in 2008. But I probably would have voted for McCain had it not been for him being in his 70s and Sarah Palin as leader of the free world if he died in office. That was the biggest reason I did not vote for him.
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Me too. I still think Obama would have won in 2008. But I probably would have voted for McCain had it not been for him being in his 70s and Sarah Palin as leader of the free world if he died in office. That was the biggest reason I did not vote for him.
Obama would have won regardless. Even if BO lost the six states he won by the narrowest of margins (IN, VA, NC, FL, OH and CO) he still would have won.
The economy tanking that summer/fall killed the Republicans that year.
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Obama would have won regardless. Even if BO lost the six states he won by the narrowest of margins (IN, VA, NC, FL, OH and CO) he still would have won.
The economy tanking that summer/fall killed the Republicans that year.
My opinion, too. Obama wins.
McCain was hated by conservatives, loved by the establishment, accepted by Democrats when it suited us same as Joe Liberman was accepted by Republicans when it suited them (Israel issues mostly).
He was a hero in many a sense, but he had an ugly side.
McCain had a legendary temper and there are some ugly nast videos out there of him berating people before it was popular today. Keating Five for you younger types is worth looking up. He was more of a war hawk then I care to support. His first wife stood by him and worked diligently for his release, he then left her for a beer distributor heiress worth millions.
McCain Feingold was a worthy and noble effort, but chunks of it ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
As much credit as he gets for the campaign in ‘08 in mellowing our attacks on his opponent, he spent the next 8 years constantly attacking.
RIP
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Wish I could say I'm surprised.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-house-flag-longer-half-staff-john-mccains/story?id=57422250
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McCain's military service is unimpeachable. The comparisons and contrasts with John Kerry are for me, the most valuable way to reflect on what he meant to America as a nation. To borrow from Churchill - as a politician, McCain was one of the worst senators, except for all the other senators (just as democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others).
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Me too. I still think Obama would have won in 2008. But I probably would have voted for McCain had it not been for him being in his 70s and Sarah Palin as leader of the free world if he died in office. That was the biggest reason I did not vote for him.
Extremely valid take on the situation IMHO.
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Wish I could say I'm surprised.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-house-flag-longer-half-staff-john-mccains/story?id=57422250
That was to be expected.
But, the Pentagon flying at full mast is one of the biggest disgraces in our country's history. The man was a military hero. Offered his life for the service of his country. Suffered unbelievably for his dedication.
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Wish I could say I'm surprised.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-house-flag-longer-half-staff-john-mccains/story?id=57422250
Pathetic.
If there was ever an American who deserved the honor of keeping the flag at half staff until burial, few deserve that honor more than John McCain. RIP Senator.
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That was to be expected.
But, the Pentagon flying at full mast is one of the biggest disgraces in our country's history. The man was a military hero. Offered his life for the service of his country. Suffered unbelievably for his dedication.
I agree with your sentiment. Technically, he policy for a Senator is one day at half-staff. Special cases for significant heroes occur regularly. They require a directive from the president, or at state levels the governor.
So the Pentagon, technically must follow the direction of the WH, who decided McCain did not deserve the honor of special recognition.
As a side note, I live in a significantly conservative state. Flags here are all at Full-staff...disgraceful.
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Wish I could say I'm surprised.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-house-flag-longer-half-staff-john-mccains/story?id=57422250
Aaaaaand now the backtrack... ?-(
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-house-lowers-flag-to-half-staff-as-nation-honors-john-mccain/
Letter, a must read:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/in-final-letter-mccain-says-he-lived-and-died-a-proud-american/
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McCain was hated by conservatives, loved by the establishment, accepted by Democrats when it suited us same as Joe Liberman was accepted by Republicans when it suited them (Israel issues mostly)
1. McCain was hardly "hated" by conservatives. The vast majority of them voted for him in all of his contests, including his run for the White House.
2. I'm grateful by nature, but I'm over the moon grateful that you've officially become a Democrat!
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1. McCain was hardly "hated" by conservatives. The vast majority of them voted for him in all of his contests, including his run for the White House.
2. I'm grateful by nature, but I'm over the moon grateful that you've officially become a Democrat!
Please take him back.
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Please take him back.
LOL. We've suffered enough - your turn.
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1. McCain was hardly "hated" by conservatives. The vast majority of them voted for him in all of his contests, including his run for the White House.
Only going off what conservative friends tell me and some articles. Yes, they voted for him for the same reason we voted for Hillary even if we didn't like her. That happens in politics all the time.
An article that captures what I was saying. Tribalism
https://aminewswire.org/stories/conservatives-john-mccain-leaves-behind-mixed-legacy/
A book that came out in 2008 that was thwarted upon my wife to keep her in line to vote for the Democrats, which she ultimately did https://www.amazon.com/Real-McCain-Conservatives-Independents-Shouldnt/dp/0979482291
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Only going off what conservative friends tell me and some articles. Yes, they voted for him for the same reason we voted for Hillary even if we didn't like her. That happens in politics all the time.
An article that captures what I was saying. Tribalism
https://aminewswire.org/stories/conservatives-john-mccain-leaves-behind-mixed-legacy/
A book that came out in 2008 that was thwarted upon my wife to keep her in line to vote for the Democrats, which she ultimately did https://www.amazon.com/Real-McCain-Conservatives-Independents-Shouldnt/dp/0979482291
None of the above, aina?
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McCain was hated by conservatives
Arizona is a very conservative state, and yet McCain won every Republican primary for U.S. House and U.S. Senate seats that he entered.
His primary opponents claimed they should be the choice because McCain wasn't conservative enough. Nevertheless, he won each of his re-election primaries races decisively - at least those in which he had an opponent at all. Seems those allegedly more conservative than he was knew they'd have no chance to beat him, which is why he often ran unopposed in primaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_John_McCain
Apparently Arizona conservatives have a funny way of demonstrating their "hatred."
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Only going off what conservative friends tell me and some articles. Yes, they voted for him for the same reason we voted for Hillary even if we didn't like her. That happens in politics all the time.
An article that captures what I was saying. Tribalism
https://aminewswire.org/stories/conservatives-john-mccain-leaves-behind-mixed-legacy/
A book that came out in 2008 that was thwarted upon my wife to keep her in line to vote for the Democrats, which she ultimately did https://www.amazon.com/Real-McCain-Conservatives-Independents-Shouldnt/dp/0979482291
JFC dude, the jig was up a long time ago. Everyone knows you're Chicos.
Also, I don't think the word thwarted means what you think it does... I doubt the phrase "thwarted upon" has ever been typed in human history
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JFC dude, the jig was up a long time ago. Everyone knows you're Chicos.
Also, I don't think the word thwarted means what you think it does... I doubt the phrase "thwarted upon" has ever been typed in human history
"And upon the hour of 6, i entered the bedchamber of the fair maiden. Upon seeing her heaving bosom, I thwarted upon her all of mine romance and physical urges"
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Arizona is a very conservative state, and yet McCain won every Republican primary for U.S. House and U.S. Senate seats that he entered.
His primary opponents claimed they should be the choice because McCain wasn't conservative enough. Nevertheless, he won each of his re-election primaries races decisively - at least those in which he had an opponent at all. Seems those allegedly more conservative than he was knew they'd have no chance to beat him, which is why he often ran unopposed in primaries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_John_McCain
Apparently Arizona conservatives have a funny way of demonstrating their "hatred."
Unless I missed something, its pretty crazy his only general election loss was the 2008 Presidential election. His only primary loss was the 2000 Presidential primaries, in which he took 2nd.
Guy had an amazing record in Congressional and statewide elections.
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"And upon the hour of 6, i entered the bedchamber of the fair maiden. Upon seeing her heaving bosom, I thwarted upon her all of mine romance and physical urges"
Well done, sir.
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Like all of us, McCain was a flawed soul. He was a statesman, who put the ideal of America over all. He admitted that when he put expediency ahead of his ideals it ended poorly. He was in turns gracious and combative. He divorced. He finished at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy. He owned all of it and kept trying to live up to the ideal of what is best for the country.
A person who valued friends .
Who didn't let something as trivial as politics stand in the way of friendship and loyalty and doing what he believed to be the right thing. A man in full.
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Who didn't let something as trivial as politics stand in the way of ... doing what he believed to be the right thing.
Oh come on.
Yes, he lived a great American life. Yes, his actions during the Vietnam War were commendable. Yes, he was more of a maverick than most politicians these days.
But I'm growing a little weary of statements like the one above. He flip flopped constantly over his career on issues like immigration and gun control to suit his political fortunes - especially over the last decade. He was a politician who acted like most politicians.
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Each deployment, the 11 person crews in a Navy Patrol Squadron typically get a patch made that only that crew wears. So, as the second in command of a squadron, my boss asked me to screen all crew patches. I am a fan of the patch that you and your crew know is naughty but someone's grandmother sees as innocent. One of the crew's did that well ... it was "The crew only your Mother could love". Well flying with them they certainly had a unique view on each other's mothers but that is for another day and that was a later deployment (a most trusted crew OBTW). So, I approve this patch for a senior crew (the lead personnel were Department Heads, vice straight out of flight school) as on the plane only ... look at me, on the plane only! It states "Old Farts, Old Parts, but we can still get them up" (image of a bent P-3). So, they give a tour on a detachment. A Congressional delegation (CODEL) comes aboard ... they are only wearing the patch on board (as directed). Ugh. The lead Senator on the CODEL requests a few of the patches. That lead Senator was John McCain.
I guess he never stopped being a Naval Aviator. RIP.
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Oh come on.
Yes, he lived a great American life. Yes, his actions during the Vietnam War were commendable. Yes, he was more of a maverick than most politicians these days.
But I'm growing a little weary of statements like the one above. He flip flopped constantly over his career on issues like immigration and gun control to suit his political fortunes - especially over the last decade. He was a politician who acted like most politicians.
One thing I even liked about his flip-flops is that he often admitted and apologized for them. In an era in which apologizing is seen as a horrible sign of weakness, I find that a little refreshing.
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Arizona is a very conservative state, and yet McCain won every Republican primary for U.S. House and U.S. Senate seats that he entered.
Massachusetts is a very liberal state, and Mitt Romney was their Governor. Electorates do funny things some times.
Washington Post with a good article today describing what others have said to me. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/republicans-anger-at-mccain-speaks-volumes-about-americas-tribal-politics/2018/08/27/fb7fed5c-aa14-11e8-8a0c-70b618c98d3c_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4cfcbfc98086
Oh come on.
Yes, he lived a great American life. Yes, his actions during the Vietnam War were commendable. Yes, he was more of a maverick than most politicians these days.
But I'm growing a little weary of statements like the one above. He flip flopped constantly over his career on issues like immigration and gun control to suit his political fortunes - especially over the last decade. He was a politician who acted like most politicians.
My opinion, too. He was this supposed gentleman in 2008, and from 2009 to 2016 trashed the man he supposedly was gentlemanly to.
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Massachusetts is a very liberal state, and Mitt Romney was their Governor. Electorates do funny things some times.
Romney won the governor's race once in Massachusetts. He also ran for the US Senate from Massachusetts and lost = by more than 17 percentage points. And when he ran for president, he also lost Massachusetts.
McCain ran for the senate 6 times in Arizona - the closest any democrat came to him was 13 percentage points.
Nice try.
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Massachusetts is a very liberal state, and Mitt Romney was their Governor. Electorates do funny things some times.
First ... what Lenny said.
Second ... they might do funny things sometimes, but if conservatives "hated" him, they wouldn't have voted for him over and over and over again.
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First ... what Lenny said.
Second ... they might do funny things sometimes, but if conservatives "hated" him, they wouldn't have voted for him over and over and over again.
Conservatives didn't hate him, as witnessed by his election victories. He took a lot of crap from the far right types for, amongst other things, casting the deciding vote against taking health care away from some people. What a monster!
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Conservatives didn't hate him, as witnessed by his election victories. He took a lot of crap from the far right types for, amongst other things, casting the deciding vote against taking health care away from some people. What a monster!
Stop it, TS ... you clearly didn't get the memo.
Conservatives HATED him. That's why they kept electing him!
You know the song, "You always hurt the one you love"? Well, with McCain, it was, "You always elect the one you hate."
We should all be so hated.
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Romney won the governor's race once in Massachusetts. He also ran for the US Senate from Massachusetts and lost = by more than 17 percentage points. And when he ran for president, he also lost Massachusetts.
McCain ran for the senate 6 times in Arizona - the closest any democrat came to him was 13 percentage points.
Nice try.
That doesn't change that conservative states or liberal states can vote people in that are seemingly don't fit the bill. To tie in with what some of the articles have said, McCain often won by larger amounts in the general than in his own primaries. In 2010, for example, he won his primary with 56% of the vote, but he won the general with 59%. In 2016 he got to 51% in his primary, but in the general improved to 53%.
That seems consistent with the articles saying he wasn't well liked by some conservatives, but in the general who else are they going to vote for? There are examples of the same situation with Democrat candidates where they are deemed not liberal enough. Primaries tend to be voted in by the extremes and pull candidates further left or further right. I don't find much to argue about with the articles linked that express the views he wasn't embraced by many in his party.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/feb/01/whyrepublicanshatemccain
https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/why-conservatives-dont-like-mccain/?mtrref=duckduckgo.com&gwh=9B063F5813AE37A6E4DB5E20A9C89D5E&gwt=pay&assetType=opinion
It reminds me of the same sentiment some Democrats had toward the Clintons, and probably cost her in 2016 with the Bernie faction so upset they stayed home, or voted 3rd party. She didn't connect with liberals and was more centrist. McCain the same with Conservatives.
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So say McCain was too centrist for some conservatives.
Don't say Conservatives hated McCain.
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Romney won the governor's race once in Massachusetts. He also ran for the US Senate from Massachusetts and lost = by more than 17 percentage points. And when he ran for president, he also lost Massachusetts.
McCain ran for the senate 6 times in Arizona - the closest any democrat came to him was 13 percentage points.
Nice try.
Romney was the architect of the "socialist" state level health care law that eventually become the foundation of the federal Affordable Care Act passed under the Obama administration.
Romney may have an "R" next to his name but he played every fiddle his "liberal" Bay Stater constituency wanted. Just as he'll play every fiddle his "conservative" Utahn constituency will want after his election in November.
Politicians are just really tall wind chimes.
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So say McCain was too centrist for some conservatives.
Don't say Conservatives hated McCain.
This
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So say McCain was too centrist for some conservatives.
Don't say Conservatives hated McCain.
Stuff like this is why you're so hated here, TAMU!
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I have had dealings with McCain over the years. I would say this,McCain was the one of the few remaining Senators whose allegiance was to his own personal brand rather than his party. He derived a lot of power and influence because of this posture. I believe the Senate was more effective when there were more guys like him around. It was a lot easier to get things done and make the back room trades that were necessary.
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I have had dealings with McCain over the years.
No you haven’t.
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I have had dealings with McCain over the years. I would say this,McCain was the one of the few remaining Senators whose allegiance was to his own personal brand rather than his party. He derived a lot of power and influence because of this posture. I believe the Senate was more effective when there were more guys like him around. It was a lot easier to get things done and make the back room trades that were necessary.
Performance Art.
I'm curious Gus, when do you do your big important job at your big important company?
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Went back and watched the flick "Game Change". It portrays McCain, as acted by Ed Harris, as a halfway decent person. I had forgotten that in 2008 he refused to bring up the Rev Wright affair because he thought it was pandering to the bigots. He also foresaw in the right wing reaction to Palin, the future rise of a fellow like Trump. Also portrayed him as a world class potty mouth.
McCain described the movie as "inaccurate" but admitted he never saw it. Steve Schmidt and Nicolle Wallace described it as "telling the truth of the campaign".
Wiki
Harris, Woody, and Julianne Moore are all pretty incredible.
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No you haven’t.
Hello, my name is Tommy Flanagan, and I'm a member of Pathological Liars Anonymous. In fact ... I'm the president of that organization. Yeah, that's who I am. I didn't always lie. No, I used to tell the truth. And then one day I told a lie and I got away with it. Yeah, I told my parents I had a brother that they never met. They got mad at me for not telling them sooner.
And they kicked me out of the house ... Yeah, that's what happened. So then I drifted for a while until I landed a job ... yeah ... as a stockbroker ... in India. And I was about to make an investment in a cow when all of a sudden a small, Chinese man came up to me and before I knew it he was clipping my nails ... yeah, that's what he was doin' ... and I was about to pay him for a job well done when out of the sky fell ... a ... a ... herd of albino chickens!
And they swooped down on us and gently sucked up all the air ... and I blacked out. And when I came to, I was in the middle of the ocean ... on a surf board ... surfin' ... good, too ... why, I was hangin' a minimum of 5 at all times!
And then if you can believe, a miniature tidal wave came along and I rode it all the way into shore, jumped off the board ... and who do you think was there to greet me? The Chinaman's wife. And she took my hand ... and together we joined Pathological Liars Anonymous.
So if you're out there listening and you wanna stop your habit of lying, just give us a call. Cuz we have meetings every week ... at my house ... in Jamaica!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4
Oh ... and I knew John McCain ... yeah ... that's the ticket!
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Also portrayed him as a world class potty mouth.
Well, he did call his wife a c u next Tuesday. In public. In front of reporters.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/07/report-mccains-profane-ti_n_95429.html
(https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/07/report-mccains-profane-ti_n_95429.html)
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No you haven’t.
My dad was actually on the ballot in Illinois in 2000 as a McCain delegate.
I had never met the Senator.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/29/us/mccain-memorial-arizona-state-capitol.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/29/us/mccain-memorial-arizona-state-capitol.html)
John McCain is the first white male to lie in state at the Arizona state capitol building.
It's about time that demographic got some recognition.
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Fun fact, John McCain has an account on Scoop.
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Well, he did call his wife a c u next Tuesday. In public. In front of reporters.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/07/report-mccains-profane-ti_n_95429.html
(https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/07/report-mccains-profane-ti_n_95429.html)
If he calls his wife anything next Tuesday it'll be the story of the year.
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Hello, my name is Tommy Flanagan, and I'm a member of Pathological Liars Anonymous. In fact ... I'm the president of that organization. Yeah, that's who I am. I didn't always lie. No, I used to tell the truth. And then one day I told a lie and I got away with it. Yeah, I told my parents I had a brother that they never met. They got mad at me for not telling them sooner.
And they kicked me out of the house ... Yeah, that's what happened. So then I drifted for a while until I landed a job ... yeah ... as a stockbroker ... in India. And I was about to make an investment in a cow when all of a sudden a small, Chinese man came up to me and before I knew it he was clipping my nails ... yeah, that's what he was doin' ... and I was about to pay him for a job well done when out of the sky fell ... a ... a ... herd of albino chickens!
And they swooped down on us and gently sucked up all the air ... and I blacked out. And when I came to, I was in the middle of the ocean ... on a surf board ... surfin' ... good, too ... why, I was hangin' a minimum of 5 at all times!
And then if you can believe, a miniature tidal wave came along and I rode it all the way into shore, jumped off the board ... and who do you think was there to greet me? The Chinaman's wife. And she took my hand ... and together we joined Pathological Liars Anonymous.
So if you're out there listening and you wanna stop your habit of lying, just give us a call. Cuz we have meetings every week ... at my house ... in Jamaica!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkYNBwCEeH4
Oh ... and I knew John McCain ... yeah ... that's the ticket!
Mike - I don't know HC and have no way of knowing whether he has had any dealings with John McCain but I'm curious how you and Sultan evidently know he's lying. What am I missing?
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Fun fact, John McCain has an account on Scoop.
??? Source?
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Mike - I don't know HC and have no way of knowing whether he has had any dealings with John McCain but I'm curious how you and Sultan evidently know he's lying. What am I missing?
His entire posting history? The guy pretends he is the middle of more things than Forrest Gump.
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If he calls his wife anything next Tuesday it'll be the story of the year.
If it is unclear what "c u next Tuesday" means, read the story
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If it is unclear what "c u next Tuesday" means, read the story
TEAL
[/u][/b]
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Mike - I don't know HC and have no way of knowing whether he has had any dealings with John McCain but I'm curious how you and Sultan evidently know he's lying. What am I missing?
He has demonstrated that he is not a trustworthy individual.
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So say McCain was too centrist for some conservatives.
Don't say Conservatives hated McCain.
Whether we use the word hate, loathe, despise, dislike, that is what some journalists described and I am restating. Doesn't make their opinion of him right, but doesn't change their opinion of him either. Many of them did not like the man. Not sure why restating what at least some journalists used to describe is wrong. These are but a few of examples I was drawing from and stating.
For me to use the words you want me to use doesn't change that some of them they hated, despised, didn't like or fill in the descriptor. You are wanting to state the why, him being too centrist. That is fine, but doesn't change how that side felt about him. To a large enough degree that these journalists, opinion writers, news media thought it worthy to put in the NY Times, Washington Post, and other outlets.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2v16wig.png)(http://i65.tinypic.com/2hmle28.png)
(http://i67.tinypic.com/102jfxf.png)(http://i67.tinypic.com/99gh9v.png)(http://i63.tinypic.com/sbseiw.png)
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Ah, so long as some journalists held an opinion, it makes it true. Good to know
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Ah, so long as some journalists held an opinion, it makes it true. Good to know
c2 says something inaccurate. He then finds others who said something similar and uses his parroting of the inaccurate statement as some kind of proof or justification.
Also notice how he misrepresents what he said in the first place -- now saying "many" conservatives "didn't like" McCain after previously saying, simply, "McCain was hated by conservatives."
And he'll keep going until either somebody acknowledges that he was "right" or until nobody wants to argue with him any more.
The more things change ...
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I have had dealings with McCain over the years. I would say this,McCain was the one of the few remaining Senators whose allegiance was to his own personal brand rather than his party. He derived a lot of power and influence because of this posture. I believe the Senate was more effective when there were more guys like him around. It was a lot easier to get things done and make the back room trades that were necessary.
Sad to see other MU fans call you untrustworthy. I may not agree with your points of view on some matters, but enjoy reading your perspectives.
Ah, so long as some journalists held an opinion, it makes it true. Good to know
It wasn't some journalists, we're talking Washington Post, NY Times, US News, CNN and others, I only displayed a small portion here. If you read through some of those articles, there is data to support there claims based on interviews and polling information. There are opinions, and there are opinions supported by data. Does it not strike you from a consistency perspective that some of the leading journalistic outlets in this country all said the same thing? At what point does it become one or two journalists' opinions before it becomes truth with data supporting it? He had a problem where his side of the aisle didn't care for him, and likely for the reason you stated. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/07/us/politics/07conservative.html That doesn't change how they felt about him. For the same reason Bernie supporters didn't care for Hillary (some journalists used the same words of hate, despise, loathe), and did not support her, one of the reasons she lost.
I do not understand the controversy here.
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I do not understand the controversy here.
It's not a "controversy." A few of us simply want to know if you are sticking with your original "McCain was hated by conservatives," or are you now going with the amended "many conservatives didn't like McCain"? Do you at least acknowledge the difference?
Thanks, and have a nice day!
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Fun fact, John McCain has an account on Scoop.
And he's one of Scoop's more insightful posters.
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And he's one of Scoop's more insightful posters.
that isn't saying much.
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that isn't saying much.
Good point!
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It's not a "controversy." A few of us simply want to know if you are sticking with your original "McCain was hated by conservatives," or are you now going with the amended "many conservatives didn't like McCain"? Do you at least acknowledge the difference?
Thanks, and have a nice day!
I hate to be the voice of reason here - most here know it is not what I do well (or even strive to do) - but the truth is somewhere in between the battling opinions here.
For most of his tenure, he was loved by conservatives, but the makeup of conservatives has changed drastically. To find out what these "new" conservatives think, just go to Breitbart and read the vile comments by the 10's of thousands. Fox had to turn off their comments section on McCain's death because of the unbelievable nastiness of these conservatives.
We live in a different world now. Conservatives have become a cult of personality rather than a movement based on a set of beliefs. And this new cult views McCain as somewhere between Obama and Satan.
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I hate to be the voice of reason here - most here know it is not what I do well (or even strive to do) - but the truth is somewhere in between the battling opinions here.
For most of his tenure, he was loved by conservatives, but the makeup of conservatives has changed drastically. To find out what these "new" conservatives think, just go to Breitbart and read the vile comments by the 10's of thousands. Fox had to turn off their comments section on McCain's death because of the unbelievable nastiness of these conservatives.
We live in a different world now. Conservatives have become a cult of personality rather than a movement based on a set of beliefs. And this new cult views McCain as somewhere between Obama and Satan.
Because I don't need instructions on how to be a racist, I don't read Breitbart. So I'll have to take your word for it.
I mostly know my circle of friends and associates. And most of the conservatives among them like and respect McCain, and they say the current occupant of the White House is not a conservative.
But yes, brand, I get your point about what's happened to the Grand Old Party.
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I mostly know my circle of friends and associates. And most of the conservatives among them like and respect McCain, and they say the current occupant of the White House is not a conservative.
Exactly the same in my case. But I don't know how representative we are as I know that I avoid a certain portion of the population
Rather than left or right, I think we probably just look for decency and other attractive human traits when it comes to friends. There is a percentage of the population that lacks these, and I certainly avoid them.
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I hate to be the voice of reason here - most here know it is not what I do well (or even strive to do) - but the truth is somewhere in between the battling opinions here.
For most of his tenure, he was loved by conservatives, but the makeup of conservatives has changed drastically. To find out what these "new" conservatives think, just go to Breitbart and read the vile comments by the 10's of thousands. Fox had to turn off their comments section on McCain's death because of the unbelievable nastiness of these conservatives.
We live in a different world now. Conservatives have become a cult of personality rather than a movement based on a set of beliefs. And this new cult views McCain as somewhere between Obama and Satan.
This isn't inaccurate, but not to go all fake news, but the cult of personality is largely a right wing media artifact and a left wing political talking point. There is no doubt that there is a voting block that represents some Hannity Conservative wing (I'm looking at you Freedom Caucus/Tea Party) that would be anti-McCain but it far from represents all "conservatives". The left wing equivalent is whatever is shaping up around Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, the media seems to want to represent that she and her voting block are the "future" of the liberal movement, whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but they certainly aren't a large portion of the liberal voting block yet.
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This isn't inaccurate, but not to go all fake news, but the cult of personality is largely a right wing media artifact and a left wing political talking point. There is no doubt that there is a voting block that represents some Hannity Conservative wing (I'm looking at you Freedom Caucus/Tea Party) that would be anti-McCain but it far from represents all "conservatives". The left wing equivalent is whatever is shaping up around Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, the media seems to want to represent that she and her voting block are the "future" of the liberal movement, whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but they certainly aren't a large portion of the liberal voting block yet.
I think it is also kind of a funny concept. Do you think there are people on the left that hate Bernie Sanders or Joe Manchin in their span of political positions/ideologies. Using those two because i would imagine that would be almost the entire span of the Democrat party in today's senate.
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I think it is also kind of a funny concept. Do you think there are people on the left that hate Bernie Sanders or Joe Manchin in their span of political positions/ideologies. Using those two because i would imagine that would be almost the entire span of the Democrat party in today's senate.
I think hate is extreme, but there's definitely frustration on the left with them at times, albeit usually for different reasons.
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I think hate is extreme, but there's definitely frustration on the left with them at times, albeit usually for different reasons.
Is this the point where I am supposed to get screen shots of people using the word hate?
I agree its hyperbolic, but I guess I just don't get the concept of 'extreme animosity'.
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I think it is also kind of a funny concept. Do you think there are people on the left that hate Bernie Sanders or Joe Manchin in their span of political positions/ideologies. Using those two because i would imagine that would be almost the entire span of the Democrat party in today's senate.
Absolutely there are Bernie Sanders types that want to kick Manchin out of the party and vice versa.
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And he's one of Scoop's more insightful posters.
AZU17?
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Absolutely there are Bernie Sanders types that want to kick Manchin out of the party and vice versa.
Maybe, but if Flake or Corker swapped their R for an I and started caucusing with the Democrats, they'd all willingly accept them, no matter how far the divide of their personal politics.
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Maybe, but if Flake or Corker swapped their R for an I and started caucusing with the Democrats, they'd all willingly accept them, no matter how far the divide of their personal politics.
Agreed, brewski.
Few if any Dems would call them DINOs.
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This isn't inaccurate, but not to go all fake news, but the cult of personality is largely a right wing media artifact and a left wing political talking point. There is no doubt that there is a voting block that represents some Hannity Conservative wing (I'm looking at you Freedom Caucus/Tea Party) that would be anti-McCain but it far from represents all "conservatives". The left wing equivalent is whatever is shaping up around Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, the media seems to want to represent that she and her voting block are the "future" of the liberal movement, whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but they certainly aren't a large portion of the liberal voting block yet.
I rarely disagree with you, Eng - as you are one of a small handful of the voices of reason on this board, no matter the subject.
But this time I do. The cult of personality is very real. People who used to call themselves conservatives have suspended reality. They really believe the Press is the enemy of the people. They really believe the FBI, CIA, and other arms of law enforcement are evil. They really believe Hillary is the ringleader of a group of Pedophiles. They really believe that Putin is our friend.
And their is only one reason they believe these things. None of those beliefs are even remotely connected to conservative principles.
In any era, you can name nuts on either side of the aisle. But they are few and far between. That is not the case here. They are out there by the tens of millions. And they have zero concern for conservative principles.
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I rarely disagree with you, Eng - as you are one of a small handful of the voices of reason on this board, no matter the subject.
But this time I do. The cult of personality is very real. People who used to call themselves conservatives have suspended reality. They really believe the Press is the enemy of the people. They really believe the FBI, CIA, and other arms of law enforcement are evil. They really believe Hillary is the ringleader of a group of Pedophiles. They really believe that Putin is our friend.
And their is only one reason they believe these things. None of those beliefs are even remotely connected to conservative principles.
In any era, you can name nuts on either side of the aisle. But they are few and far between. That is not the case here. They are out there by the tens of millions. And they have zero concern for conservative principles.
Agreed Jockey - and all you have to do is look at the current president's approval ratings since taking office. They really do not fluctuate that much at all. He will be a point or two above or below 40%. Hell the week he was implicated in a felony he was at 41%, just 4 points off his high mark. That tells me that there is a very large base in this country who are exactly what you described above.
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In any era, you can name nuts on either side of the aisle. But they are few and far between. That is not the case here. They are out there by the tens of millions. And they have zero concern for conservative principles.
That's my favorite part. Trump's brand of politics bears little relationship to traditional conservative principles - just look at the decision to renegotiate Nafta (that's a super Dem move). But Trump was shrewd enough to know that if he kept the throughline of racism that has long simmered below the surface of conservatism, then he could bring in whole swaths of people who weren't really committed to either party AND not risk losing Republicans. Now that the racism has burst into plain view, it seems that R's are perfectly willing to adopt non-conservative policies and look the other way at comically open corruption, so long as it advances their tribal instincts. It's completely exposed Republicans' "conservative principles" as the B.S. it always was (because, hey, they're not really principles if you're willing to fold them up like a camping chair), and it shows the purported party of "values" as a valueless group of poseurs.
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My experience has been that the folks who read and comment on Right Wing sites really "dislike" McCain. See Breitbart, Power Line, Legal Insurection, or Fox News. Its been that way for awhile. They consider him the ultimate RINO.
If you want a quick feel for this, just search "Sara Palin" in Twitter.
The comments here are pretty typical:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/08/john-mccain-has-died/
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My experience has been that the folks who read and comment on Right Wing sites really "dislike" McCain. See Breitbart, Power Line, Legal Insurection, or Fox News. Its been that way for awhile. They consider him the ultimate RINO.
If you want a quick feel for this, just search "Sara Palin" in Twitter.
The comments here are pretty typical:
https://legalinsurrection.com/2018/08/john-mccain-has-died/
But are those people really "conservatives" -- or at least what conservatives have been for the last 50+ years?
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Agreed Jockey - and all you have to do is look at the current president's approval ratings since taking office. They really do not fluctuate that much at all. He will be a point or two above or below 40%. Hell the week he was implicated in a felony he was at 41%, just 4 points off his high mark. That tells me that there is a very large base in this country who are exactly what you described above.
Disapproval ratings just hit their low point since he was sworn in.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/31/donald-trump-approval-rating-sinks-to-lowest-of-his-presidency?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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But are those people really "conservatives" -- or at least what conservatives have been for the last 50+ years?
Not real big on labels. As far as "what conservatives have been for the last 50+ years?", Buckley was a big opponent of the Civil Rights movement and once wrote that "the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race. . . ."
Reagan vetoed the Anti-apartheid Act.
I suspect that way of thinking is strongly supported by "those people".
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It's not a "controversy." A few of us simply want to know if you are sticking with your original "McCain was hated by conservatives," or are you now going with the amended "many conservatives didn't like McCain"? Do you at least acknowledge the difference?
I provided plenty of backup to suggest he was hated by some conservatives. You seem to disagree, but I don't know how many articles I have to provide that say hate, loathe, despised. Here is another example. http://americablog.com/2008/01/mccain-simply-loathed-by-many-fellow-republicans.html Or was it because I said hated by conservatives and didn't put the qualifier of 'some'? Guilty as charged on the latter, should have said some.
I suspect the conservatives you associate with may not be as conservative as others. Establishment conservatives love McCain, which is what so many of the articles said. They are often called rinos by the right. There are Democrats that strongly dislike, even hate some Democrats. Dan Lipinski here in Illinois is one that doesn't escape some of the arrows.
For most of his tenure, he was loved by conservatives, but the makeup of conservatives has changed drastically. To find out what these "new" conservatives think, just go to Breitbart and read the vile comments by the 10's of thousands. Fox had to turn off their comments section on McCain's death because of the unbelievable nastiness of these conservatives.
Not sure that is exactly true. He may have been loved mostly in Arizona, but he butted heads with both sides early on in his career.
But by your own admission, you state the hatred some conservatives had toward McCain which is why I don't understand why people were questioning it when I said it? It exists, and it exists enough and has for a long time that it was known by most journalists. It was highly prevalent in the '08 election, but came up much earlier than that.
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I provided plenty of backup to suggest he was hated by some conservatives.
Now we are in agreement with you. Before you said "Conservatives hated him" implying all or most conservatives hated him. Now you admit that it was some.
Really as simple as that.
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It's completely exposed Republicans' "conservative principles" as the B.S. it always was (because, hey, they're not really principles if you're willing to fold them up like a camping chair), and it shows the purported party of "values" as a valueless group of poseurs.
It has always been the case, but R's have correctly calculated that it doesn't cost them anything at all with their tribe. Consider their stance on the deficit: Not all concerned under Reagan/Bush, very concerned under Clinton, not the least bit concerned under Bush, insanely concerned under Obama, proactively pro-deficit to the tune of $1.5T under Trump.
And don't get me started on how evangelicals think the adulterous, porn-star-banging, thrice married p-grabber has a direct line to god.
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in before the lock.
uggggh