I wasn't around in the 1970s. Was Marquette's program as good during that run as Villanova is having now? Was it tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70s as it is today?
Wright has it going. Good thing for Nova is they gave him time to build his program despite a mediocre start to his career there. He has said as much a number of times. He is awesome and Nova is an incredible team with a heck of a run.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
Good thing for Nova is they gave him time to build his program despite a mediocre start to his career there. He has said as much a number of times.
You are right -- sure needed 5 years to judge this coach.... ::)
Year Record Conference Post Season
2001–02 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05 24–8 11–5 T–3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06 28–5 14–2 T–1st NCAA Elite Eight
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 17, 2018, 02:13:03 PM
You are right -- sure needed 5 years to judge this coach.... ::)
Year Record Conference Post Season
2001–02 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05 24–8 11–5 T–3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06 28–5 14–2 T–1st NCAA Elite Eight
Right. So through Wojo's 4 years coaching he wasn't overly far behind Jay Wright's first 4 years. Same number of NCAA Tournament appearances. 2 less NCAA Tournament wins. 2 less total wins. 2 more total losses.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2018, 02:15:06 PM
Right. So through Wojo's 4 years coaching he wasn't overly far behind Jay Wright's first 4 years. Same number of NCAA Tournament appearances. 2 less NCAA Tournament wins. 2 less total wins. 2 more total losses.
Thanks for pointing that out.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/J2zwN64xc4wgw/200w.gif)
Okay, bud. Sure.
Quote from: Eldon on March 17, 2018, 02:34:51 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/J2zwN64xc4wgw/200w.gif)
Okay, bud. Sure.
I guess I'm wrong? So please enlighten me.
How many NCAA Tournament wins did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova (the number of years Wojo has been a head coach at Marquette)?
How many NCAA Tournament appearances did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova?
What were Jay Wright's and Wojo's records their first 4 seasons at Nova/MU?
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
I wasn't around in the 1970s. Was Marquette's program as good during that run as Villanova is having now? Was it tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70s as it is today?
Wright has it going. Good thing for Nova is they gave him time to build his program despite a mediocre start to his career there. He has said as much a number of times. He is awesome and Nova is an incredible team with a heck of a run.
MU in Al's day was the #2 program in the country after UCLA. We struck fear into the heart of our opponents and most games were won before they even started. The gap between #1 and #2 was of course very wide. However, we were recruiting the best of the best though , which we sustained through the first couple of years after Al retired. Young players aspired to play for MU.
Also back in those days teams were able to stock pile good players as there were no scholarship limits. The most famous example was UCLA back up center Swen Nater who never started a game and was recruited primarily to serve as a practice player for Bill Walton. Nater ended being a first round draft choice and having a stellar ABA/NBA career. Also there was no 3 pointer , which made the game big man inside play dominant. So getting to number 1 was a very hard challenge back in our golden era.
The Big East as currently constituted is a big asset for Villanova. Their solid record in the double round robin against quality teams is ensuring a high seeding. If they can continue to recruit at the level they have been recently I think it is possible they reach the level MU was at in the next couple of years.
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 17, 2018, 02:42:03 PM
The gap between #1 and #2 was of course very wide. However, we were recruiting the best of the best though , which we sustained through the first couple of years after Al retired. Young players aspired to play for MU.
Not sure I agree with this Herm. Otherwise a great post.
1) UCLA was a better "money" team than we were but probably not more talented. From 1969 on, we had tournament mishaps through the 1970s. Whether it was a missed free-throw in 1969, a poorly reffed game in 1971, player losses (which UCLA didn't have), the gap was not as wide as you suggest.
In fact, had Jim Chones not left us in 1972, some think we would have kicked UCLA back into Westwood.
2) Our recruiting dropped off the day Al announced he was retiring. Hank may have been the biggest mistake the Jesuits ever made (even worse than Dukiet), Ray Meyer was the biggest beneficiary of Al's retirement and Depaul and perhaps Louisville went to the NCAA final four on talent Al probably would hve recruited!
Wright was better than Wojo four years in at Nova, but not by a big margin. His overall winning pct was .585, Wojo's is .554. He went to one NCAA Tournament like Wojo, but he won 2 games. So definitely better, but not dramatically.
This shouldn't be terribly surprising. Before going to Nova, Wright had seven years of D1 head coaching experience at Hofstra. Wojo had zero. So of course you would expect him to be better.
And FWIW if you look at Wright's first four years as a head coach, he is behind Wojo...against weaker competition.
I am not saying Wojo will match Wright's record. It's way too early to know. He obviously has work to do...and fortunately time to do it.
Regarding your main question - it's apples and oranges. In the 70s, there was UCLA, then Marquette, then a bunch of other teams. Today, there is no obvious first or second best, but about five or six programs at similar levels (Nova, UNC, UK, Duke, MSU).
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2018, 02:15:06 PM
Right. So through Wojo's 4 years coaching he wasn't overly far behind Jay Wright's first 4 years. Same number of NCAA Tournament appearances. 2 less NCAA Tournament wins. 2 less total wins. 2 more total losses.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Riiiiggghhhtttt.... Wrights' 4th year was a hell of a lot better than #Wojo's 4th year by any comparison. Always amazed by the Wojo love comparing Wojo to Wright.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on March 17, 2018, 02:13:03 PM
You are right -- sure needed 5 years to judge this coach.... ::)
Year Record Conference Post Season
2001–02 19–13 7–9 5th NIT Quarterfinals
2002–03 15–16 8–8 T–3rd NIT First Round
2003–04 18–17 6–10 11th NIT Quarterfinals
2004–05 24–8 11–5 T–3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–06 28–5 14–2 T–1st NCAA Elite Eight
Wojo got us into the NCAAs in year three, took Wright until year four. Wright inherited a NIT team, Wojo inherited a team that couldn't even get into the NIT. Wright's 3rd year in the Big East they were 11th in Conference and went 6-10 after going 7-9 and 8-8 his first two years.
Now, I'm not comparing the two and saying they will be the same, but if Wright's results were Wojos in the first three years, some of you would be calling for his head.
Oh how about this, after Wright's Final Four in '09 Nova did this
'10 NCAA second round loss despite #2 seed
'11 NCAA first round loss
'12 No NCAAs
'13 NCAA first round loss
Quote from: Herman Cain on March 17, 2018, 02:42:03 PM
MU in Al's day was the #2 program in the country after UCLA. We struck fear into the heart of our opponents and most games were won before they even started. The gap between #1 and #2 was of course very wide. However, we were recruiting the best of the best though , which we sustained through the first couple of years after Al retired. Young players aspired to play for MU.
Also back in those days teams were able to stock pile good players as there were no scholarship limits. The most famous example was UCLA back up center Swen Nater who never started a game and was recruited primarily to serve as a practice player for Bill Walton. Nater ended being a first round draft choice and having a stellar ABA/NBA career. Also there was no 3 pointer , which made the game big man inside play dominant. So getting to number 1 was a very hard challenge back in our golden era.
The Big East as currently constituted is a big asset for Villanova. Their solid record in the double round robin against quality teams is ensuring a high seeding. If they can continue to recruit at the level they have been recently I think it is possible they reach the level MU was at in the next couple of years.
We were definitely #2 for the decade in terms of winning percentage and AP polls. Should have won two titles in my opinion, outside shot at three. Chones leaving was an absolute killer.
Are you sure about unlimited scholarships back then? In 1973 the NCAA limited football scholarships, which were further limited in later years. Basketball was eventually limited to 13, but I cannot recall when the original limit of 15 was put in.
FWIW, maybe five years ago someone (and I think it was someone legit like SI) put together a ranking of the top college team decades in NCAA history. I believe Marquette in the 70s was ranked #2 overall, behind UCLA in the 70s. In other words, Marquette in the 70s was considered more dominant than any decade ever by UK, KU, Duke, UNC, etc. Can't find it now, and it's obviously a pretty arbitrary ranking, but I always appreciated it.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2018, 02:37:37 PM
I guess I'm wrong? So please enlighten me.
How many NCAA Tournament wins did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova (the number of years Wojo has been a head coach at Marquette)?
How many NCAA Tournament appearances did Jay Wright have through 4 years at Nova?
What were Jay Wright's and Wojo's records their first 4 seasons at Nova/MU?
I don't disagree with your overall premise here. But Wright's 4th year (04-05) team was stacked and returned everybody the following year - preseason ranked #3.
So the results may have been similar, but to compare where Wright & Wojo are heading into their 5th aren't really close at all. Hard to imagine any Villanova fans doubting Wright's ability and upside at that time.
QuoteFWIW, maybe five years ago someone (and I think it was someone legit like SI) put together a ranking of the top college team decades in NCAA history. I believe Marquette in the 70s was ranked #2 overall, behind UCLA in the 70s. In other words, Marquette in the 70s was considered more dominant than any decade ever by UK, KU, Duke, UNC, etc. Can't find it now, and it's obviously a pretty arbitrary ranking, but I always appreciated it.
There's this from ESPN
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf
Herman
I am not so sure on how wide that margin was, especially the first 8 years of the decade. My one regret from the Al era was MU didn't get their chances head to head against the Bruins. Will add, UCLA was loaded year in and year out.
I like the idea, but different worlds.
I was present when the Domers beat them in SB V Walton. We could have beaten them easily.
Quote from: Goose on March 18, 2018, 07:08:43 PM
Herman
I am not so sure on how wide that margin was, especially the first 8 years of the decade. My one regret from the Al era was MU didn't get their chances head to head against the Bruins. Will add, UCLA was loaded year in and year out.
Al felt the same way. He once said that he realized ULCA was the best thing since sliced bread but he just wanted to have that chance. The biggest problem we had before Chones was the lack of a good big. We had great jumpers and kids tough as nails but no length. Pistol Pete learned that great D from the Dean the Dream and others was a show stopper. We also learned we needed a big that could handle Big Bob Lanier types. That eventually happened and you know the rest of the story.
In those days Marquette was the dinner, dessert and with Al always the wild guy who gave every ounce of blood and sweat to win. Those tears in 1977 were real as they were for the players. Jay W. Is a different type of coach. Al was unique and he has and always will be Marquette. He inspired players to become great as a team.
In 74, we would have had Lucas, Chones, and McNeil.
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 18, 2018, 08:05:14 PM
In 74, we would have had Lucas, Chones, and McNeil.
He stated before Chones arrived, but you are right with that facts, except Chones would have been gone.
Three things changed the program, losing those three players in three straight years.
72-73. Chones don't leave:
Larry McNeil
Chones
Maurice Lucas
George Frazier
Marcus Washington
Allie McGuire
73-74. McNeil doesn't leave
Larry McNeil
Maurice Lucas
Bo Ellis
Earl Tatum
Lloyd Walton
Marcus Washington
74-75 Lucas doesn't leave
Bo Ellis
Maurice Lucas
Earl Tatum
Butch Lee
Jerry Holman
Those teams in those three years lost 13 games, including runner up in 1974. If none of the three left, maybe lose 6 to 7. The talent would have been just extraordinary and that was the difference.
Fast forward to 1977, it changed when Al retired and Mark Aguirre went to Depaul. Al stays and he gets Aguirre and probably the MCCray brothers.
nyg
Spot on about Al leaving. Aquirre, Cummings, Grubbs, Mc Cray boys and others very likely land at MU. Aquirre was ours until Al left. MU was poised for another decade of top 1-2 programs in the country if Al had not left. Thanks for the reminder, I am back to being pissed at Al for stepping down at 47.
Quote from: Goose on March 19, 2018, 09:20:11 AM
nyg
Spot on about Al leaving. Aquirre, Cummings, Grubbs, Mc Cray boys and others very likely land at MU. Aquirre was ours until Al left. MU was poised for another decade of top 1-2 programs in the country if Al had not left. Thanks for the reminder, I am back to being pissed at Al for stepping down at 47.
Is this true? I've researched it before and never seen an article referencing Agguire's interest in MU pre Al. Articles always say that he wanted to stay in Chicago.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 19, 2018, 09:22:37 AM
Is this true? I've researched it before and never seen an article referencing Agguire's interest in MU pre Al. Articles always say that he wanted to stay in Chicago.
Yes, no internet back then, just paper. Bob Gibbons used to put out the best recruiting reports, you subscribed and it was mailed to you. Was called the All Star Report if I recall. Aguirre was probably a done deal, as were the McCray brothers. Aguirre from Chicago up the road, McCray brothers from Mt. Vernon, NY high school, same as Earl Tatum. Rodney was number 3 pick overall in draft and Scooter wasn't bad either. Wish I had a publication reference, but take my word and others who know.
nyg
You are correct. Aquirre was 100% done deal. He mentioned years later in SI on how Al's leaving changed the path of his career. The McCray's were awfully close to done deal. Al was recruiting at higher level every year and the sky was the limit.
That 1980 Louisville team with the McCray brothers, Dr. Dunkenstein Darrel Griffith and Derek Smith was a fun one to watch.
Quote from: WarriorDad on March 17, 2018, 09:46:48 PM
We were definitely #2 for the decade in terms of winning percentage and AP polls. Should have won two titles in my opinion, outside shot at three. Chones leaving was an absolute killer.
Are you sure about unlimited scholarships back then? In 1973 the NCAA limited football scholarships, which were further limited in later years. Basketball was eventually limited to 13, but I cannot recall when the original limit of 15 was put in.
Where are you getting #2 for the decade? We were a perennial Top 10- 15 program but I think you are overstating the point. How many weeks was MU ranked #1 or 2 over that time period? You might be surprised by the result.
Quote from: 79Warrior on March 19, 2018, 03:43:47 PM
Where are you getting #2 for the decade? We were a perennial Top 10- 15 program but I think you are overstating the point. How many weeks was MU ranked #1 or 2 over that time period? You might be surprised by the result.
We had the second best winning percentage in the decade. There's a report that puts us at number 3 behind UNC as well due to strength of schedule but usually we're reffered to as the second best program of the decade.
Quote from: nyg on March 19, 2018, 03:33:23 PM
Yes, no internet back then, just paper. Bob Gibbons used to put out the best recruiting reports, you subscribed and it was mailed to you. Was called the All Star Report if I recall. Aguirre was probably a done deal, as were the McCray brothers. Aguirre from Chicago up the road, McCray brothers from Mt. Vernon, NY high school, same as Earl Tatum. Rodney was number 3 pick overall in draft and Scooter wasn't bad either. Wish I had a publication reference, but take my word and others who know.
Interesting. Just strange he's never mentioned it. Like theres usually some random interview that'd be online where he'd mention how he ended up at Depaul.
79Warriors
We were a Top 10-15 program in the 70's? I hope you just posted that to stir up the old guys out here. Otherwise, what the hell are you thinking?
If you scroll down here, this old SI article suggest Agguire was headed to MU.
https://www.si.com/vault/1980/01/21/824311/depaul-is-deone-as-in-no-1-the-team-is-unbeaten-thanks-to-its-wily-coach-his-son-the-recruiter-and-homegrown-chicago-talent-like-mark-aguirre-shooting-against-marquette
Quote from: mujivitz06 on March 19, 2018, 04:23:14 PM
If you scroll down here, this old SI article suggest Agguire was headed to MU.
https://www.si.com/vault/1980/01/21/824311/depaul-is-deone-as-in-no-1-the-team-is-unbeaten-thanks-to-its-wily-coach-his-son-the-recruiter-and-homegrown-chicago-talent-like-mark-aguirre-shooting-against-marquette
That was well known at the time. Cummings would have been here as well. Alas, Al returned early.....
Quote from: mujivitz06 on March 19, 2018, 04:23:14 PM
If you scroll down here, this old SI article suggest Agguire was headed to MU.
https://www.si.com/vault/1980/01/21/824311/depaul-is-deone-as-in-no-1-the-team-is-unbeaten-thanks-to-its-wily-coach-his-son-the-recruiter-and-homegrown-chicago-talent-like-mark-aguirre-shooting-against-marquette
There it is. Not that I didn't believe the old timers but after 40 years things get twisted and such so I didn't know if he was ours to lose or was just seriously considering us
Al McGuire was the best thing that ever happened to MU basketball, bar none. Always will be. Second best is certainly up for grabs
I've heard Isiah Thomas would've played for Al, too.
Quote from: Lazar's Punk'd Headband on March 19, 2018, 04:36:31 PM
I've heard Isiah Thomas would've played for Al, too.
Yep, I remembered hearing all about guys like Aguirre, Cummings, the McCrays and Thomas. I know Hank was really close to landing Rod Foster too, but he ended up at UCLA.
DePaul went to the '79 Final Four with Aguirre and Cummings, and UL beat UCLA in the 1980 National Championship game that included the McCrays and Foster.
Piper
I will rest better knowing that you received confirmation on the program's history.
Lazar
I can speak with a very high level of confidence that the Mc Cray's were MU bound. Once Al left, Hank had little chance. I will even go as far as saying that I believe us losing Aguirre was all on Al and not just because he left. He was the one that made Ray Meyer's career.
Quote from: wadesworld on March 17, 2018, 01:16:51 PM
I wasn't around in the 1970s. Was Marquette's program as good during that run as Villanova is having now? Was it tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70s as it is today?
As others have pointed out it's a bit of an apples vs. oranges comparison. without putting too much thought into it I think comparing anyone pre 1985 and post 1985 is difficult.
However, if forced to compare I don't think there is any rational argument that would say it was tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70's - there is WAY more parity and competition today. not taking anything away from Al but Jay is at least on par with Al when you look at his last 5 years against any of Al's 5 year stretches. What Al had in addition to his coaching success was that he was basically the physical embodiment of the institution so his success on the court, and as an announcer, is magnified for us.
Quote from: Lazar's Punk'd Headband on March 19, 2018, 04:36:31 PM
I've heard Isiah Thomas would've played for Al, too.
I've heard Trevor Mbakwe would've insisted on being born earlier to play for Al
Quote from: real chili 83 on March 18, 2018, 08:05:14 PM
In 74, we would have had Lucas, Chones, and McNeil.
Wrong, #22 was class of '73, hey?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 19, 2018, 08:09:23 PM
Wrong, #22 was class of '73, hey?
Yes, I already mentioned that to him in this thread.
Effen Al!
We lionize him, memorialize him, name stuff after him, retire his "number," etc, etc, etc ... and the man cost us a bunch of national titles!!!
The jerk!!!!
Quote from: 79Warrior on March 19, 2018, 03:43:47 PM
Where are you getting #2 for the decade? We were a perennial Top 10- 15 program but I think you are overstating the point. How many weeks was MU ranked #1 or 2 over that time period? You might be surprised by the result.
Two sources.
1) NCAA record book, page 82. Marquette had the second highest winning percentage of the decade behind only UCLA. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2018/D1.pdf
2) AP Polls. From 1970 to 1979, Marquette appeared in the AP poll the second most times with 99.4% appearances in the polls in that decade and an average ranking of 6.6 (also second best). UCLA had 100% appearances with an average ranking of 2.9.
http://www.collegepollarchive.com/mbasketball/ap/app_total.cfm?sort=totapp&from=1970&to=1979#.WrCUGejwaM8
Quote from: Goose on March 19, 2018, 04:01:39 PM
79Warriors
We were a Top 10-15 program in the 70's? I hope you just posted that to stir up the old guys out here. Otherwise, what the hell are you thinking?
Having some fun!!
79Warrior
You had me worried.
Here's the list saying number 3 in the 70s
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf
Quote from: naginiF on March 19, 2018, 05:48:41 PM
As others have pointed out it's a bit of an apples vs. oranges comparison. without putting too much thought into it I think comparing anyone pre 1985 and post 1985 is difficult.
However, if forced to compare I don't think there is any rational argument that would say it was tougher to achieve that kind of success in the 70's - there is WAY more parity and competition today. not taking anything away from Al but Jay is at least on par with Al when you look at his last 5 years against any of Al's 5 year stretches. What Al had in addition to his coaching success was that he was basically the physical embodiment of the institution so his success on the court, and as an announcer, is magnified for us.
Agree with all of this ... and I was old enough to have watched and remembered those '70s Warriors.
It's hard to believe, but even only 40-45 years ago, there were many programs that were reluctant to have "too many" black players. Al, as we all know, didn't give a chit. He loved going into the cities and meeting them on their turf, loved convincing their mothers he would take care of them better than any of the other whiteys out there. He had the whole "I'm a city kid, too" schtick working - because it was true.
The few coaches like Al who could work the inner cities back then had a tremendous advantage. There is no such advantage possible today - not for Jay Wright or anybody else.
Not to take anything away from Al. He had to establish his cred and build on it, but it's a fact that it's one of the major differences between the hoops landscape then and now.
MU82
It is apples and oranges to some degree. That said, being the second best program in the country for a decade was not an easy task. Many other blueblood programs that had major advantages over MU did not match Al's teams success. Challenges in today's game are different, but putting together a program like Al did was not easy. I guess to me, being the second best program for decade is impressive then and now. It looks different today, but make no mistake, what Al did was off the charts.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 20, 2018, 01:05:21 PM
Here's the list saying number 3 in the 70s
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf
I've seen Sagarin's list and I guess it must be based on a tougher schedule.
Through the decade, MU won 17 NCAA games plus the NIT title in 1970.
MU finished ranked in the top ten 9 of 10 seasons. #11 in 1975 was the only finish outside the top ten.
UNC won 9 NCAA games plus a NIT title in 1971.
The TarHeels finished ranked top 10 in 5 seasons. 9 top 20 rankings plus being unranked in 1970.
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on March 20, 2018, 03:37:32 PM
I've seen Sagarin's list and I guess it must be based on a tougher schedule.
Through the decade, MU won 17 NCAA games plus the NIT title in 1970.
MU finished ranked in the top ten 9 of 10 seasons. #11 in 1975 was the only finish outside the top ten.
UNC won 9 NCAA games plus a NIT title in 1971.
The TarHeels finished ranked top 10 in 5 seasons. 9 top 20 rankings plus being unranked in 1970.
Then the strength of schedule must be it
Quote from: Goose on March 20, 2018, 03:08:41 PM
MU82
It is apples and oranges to some degree. That said, being the second best program in the country for a decade was not an easy task. Many other blueblood programs that had major advantages over MU did not match Al's teams success. Challenges in today's game are different, but putting together a program like Al did was not easy. I guess to me, being the second best program for decade is impressive then and now. It looks different today, but make no mistake, what Al did was off the charts.
Agree with all of that, Goose, especially the bolded part. I absolutely do not want to take anything away from what Al accomplished.
Although I don't wish I was older - 106 is plenty old enough!! - it sure would have been cool to have started college 2 years earlier than I did and to have been a student when we won it all!
Quote from: oldwarrior81 on March 20, 2018, 03:37:32 PM
I've seen Sagarin's list and I guess it must be based on a tougher schedule.
Through the decade, MU won 17 NCAA games plus the NIT title in 1970.
MU finished ranked in the top ten 9 of 10 seasons. #11 in 1975 was the only finish outside the top ten.
UNC won 9 NCAA games plus a NIT title in 1971.
The TarHeels finished ranked top 10 in 5 seasons. 9 top 20 rankings plus being unranked in 1970.
I'm pretty sure those are weighted by schedule. There are three ACC teams in the top 10 which helped them.
MU82
I was in eighth grade when we won it. Judging by my future behavior, I might have enjoyed that run if I had been old enough to be at MU for Al's time.
Piper
I'm going with your update. We were the #3 program in the 1970's!! Thanks for clearing that up. I was stupid enough to believe we were #2 for the last 38 years.
Quote from: Goose on March 20, 2018, 03:42:46 PM
MU82
I was in eighth grade when we won it. Judging by my future behavior, I might have enjoyed that run if I had been old enough to be at MU for Al's time.
Wait ... so all this talk from you and others about how special it was to be a student when we won it all, and you actually were an 8th-grade student? Interesting.
Quote from: Goose on March 20, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
Piper
I'm going with your update. We were the #3 program in the 1970's!! Thanks for clearing that up. I was stupid enough to believe we were #2 for the last 38 years.
Not trying to say we were number three, I would reference a thread on holylandofhoops forum where I argue we were number two. But it's hard to argue we didn't have an easy schedule comparatively. I think if there's an argument that another team was number 2 it should at least be acknowledged rather than blindly following. But that's just my opinion, I prefer to see both sides
MU82
I have never said it was special because I was a student at the time, because I was not. Just had a little different seat than most eighth graders. Now, obviously handful of folks that lived the dream on campus posting on here. As for me, there was never any false advertisement for my time on campus.
Piper
Good stuff.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 20, 2018, 03:50:27 PM
Not trying to say we were number three, I would reference a thread on holylandofhoops forum where I argue we were number two. But it's hard to argue we didn't have an easy schedule comparatively. I think if there's an argument that another team was number 2 it should at least be acknowledged rather than blindly following. But that's just my opinion, 8 prefer to see both sides
Strength of schedule really wasn't a thing back in the 1970s though. The problem I have with that is that you are applying 2010s metrics retroactively 40 years ago.
I mean, arguing whether or not you were the #2 or #3 program in a decade that ended almost 40 years ago is a little silly to begin with.
Quote from: #bansultan on March 20, 2018, 03:56:44 PM
Strength of schedule really wasn't a thing back in the 1970s though. The problem I have with that is that you are applying 2010s metrics retroactively 40 years ago.
I mean, arguing whether or not you were the #2 or #3 program in a decade that ended almost 40 years ago is a little silly to begin with.
Then you can be the one to message sagarian and deal with it because I'm not applying jack. I'm only here to pass along info that it seemed many hadn't seen before so that people realize maybe we weren't head and shoulders above everyone else as it gets reported on here.
Quote from: Goose on March 20, 2018, 03:52:32 PM
MU82
I have never said it was special because I was a student at the time, because I was not. Just had a little different seat than most eighth graders. Now, obviously handful of folks that lived the dream on campus posting on here. As for me, there was never any false advertisement for my time on campus.
Fair enough, Goose. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was impugning your integrity. I obviously mis-read earlier stuff.
It would have been cool to be there no matter when, but extra cool to have been a Warriors student!! We were both a little too young for that.
MU82
No problem at all. I just assumed you know I was too young to have been a student at that time. It would have been a blast!!
Quote from: Goose on March 20, 2018, 03:42:46 PM
MU82
I was in eighth grade when we won it. Judging by my future behavior, I might have enjoyed that run if I had been old enough to be at MU for Al's time.
I'm one year older than you. I was in 9th grade at Marquette...High School.
Fortunately I was able to go to all 5 tournament games because my dad was an alum and long-time season ticket holder. So I didn't quite have the MU student experience in '77, but it was awesome nevertheless.
Goooo
What grade school did you go to? Pius guy here, but 95% of my grade school class was MUHS.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 20, 2018, 03:59:54 PM
Then you can be the one to message sagarian and deal with it because I'm not applying jack. I'm only here to pass along info that it seemed many hadn't seen before so that people realize maybe we weren't head and shoulders above everyone else as it gets reported on here.
Ok dude.
a couple of points about our "Al" record -- in1972, its been mentioned about Chones leaving, but hasn't about Lackey leaving at the same time. Another point is that at that time the NCAA had 2 at large berths. One from the league that had Miami of Ohio and the other, I can't remember. The at large teams played one of these and it they won would play either the Big Ten winner or the SEC winner, which would generally be KY. Originally they would play on their home court, and on successive nights. McGuire put an end to this, but, even in that year, it led to an NIT, rather than an NCAA bid. The result was that MU had an almost impossible route to an NCAA championship, and would have had an even better record.
Quote from: harryp on March 20, 2018, 05:27:51 PM
a couple of points about our "Al" record -- in1972, its been mentioned about Chones leaving, but hasn't about Lackey leaving at the same time. Another point is that at that time the NCAA had 2 at large berths. One from the league that had Miami of Ohio and the other, I can't remember. The at large teams played one of these and it they won would play either the Big Ten winner or the SEC winner, which would generally be KY. Originally they would play on their home court, and on successive nights. McGuire put an end to this, but, even in that year, it led to an NIT, rather than an NCAA bid. The result was that MU had an almost impossible route to an NCAA championship, and would have had an even better record.
Lackey didn't leave early during the 1972 season. Although Lackey was threatened with a suspension by the NCAA after the first round game.
In 1972 there were at least two at-large bids in each of the four regions. A total of 9 independents in the 23 team field. My take is that an independent may have had an easier path to the NCAA's than a team that was required to win the conference tourney in a one bid ACC.
In 1970, Al was upset because the two at-large bids in the Mideast, playing in Dayton, went to #4 Jacksonville (Artis Gilmore), and #9 Notre Dame (Austin Carr).
The NCAA offered an at-large in the Midwest, playing #12 Houston in Fort Worth.
Al was certain Rupp kept Marquette out of the Mideast which is where the SEC champion would be sent.
Quote from: Goose on March 20, 2018, 04:25:56 PM
Goooo
What grade school did you go to? Pius guy here, but 95% of my grade school class was MUHS.
I was kind of an outsider at MUHS - I grew up in Menomonee Falls and went to the public schools through 8th grade.
I was thrilled with the chance to go to MUHS so I went as a frosh...but the long commute and challenges in feeling like I belonged got to be challenges, so I transferred back to the MF public schools as a sophomore.
So it's just serendipity that the one and only year I went to a catholic school coincided with MU's championship run.
I did go to MU after high school though - '80-'83.
Quote from: MU82 on March 20, 2018, 04:14:17 PM
Fair enough, Goose. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was impugning your integrity. I obviously mis-read earlier stuff.
It would have been cool to be there no matter when, but extra cool to have been a Warriors student!! We were both a little too young for that.
Maybe your confusion is because he has on occasion stated that he is too old to wait for another championship. 82 you are 1 year older than me and I still feel extremely young. I was a junior in HS when MU won it all. Regarding the teams Al built he had that NY inner city connection and was not afraid to go to Harlem, so he got to recruit amazing players.
Newsdreams
Maybe your confusion is with somebody else. I can assure you I have NEVER said I was too old to wait for a championship. I may call myself old, to the young guns, but I have plenty of time for MU to win another one. You must of mistaken me for someone else.
Quote from: Goose on March 21, 2018, 03:37:08 PM
Newsdreams
Maybe your confusion is with somebody else. I can assure you I have NEVER said I was too old to wait for a championship. I may call myself old, to the young guns, but I have plenty of time for MU to win another one. You must of mistaken me for someone else.
Great 👍