As TAMU wrote a couple weeks back in his good article on new coaches rebuilding programs, Bennett's first 4 seasons at Virginia were eerily similar to Wojo's first 4 at Marquette.
Question:
Would we all be fine if Wojo replicates exactly what Bennett has done at UVa starting in Year 5 (3 conference titles; S16-R32-E8-R32-R64 in NCAAs) ... if we somehow knew in advance that our Warriors would cap off Year 9 with an historic, humiliating loss that will be remembered for all of eternity?
Meanwhile ... here's a little more fun ... a look at how the Not-Quite-Marquette coaches have fared:
Cuonzo Martin:
Missouri did not look ready to play and was pretty much never in its game against Florida State. They rallied a little in the second half but Martin stayed far too long with Michael Porter, who missed several ill-advised shots, didn't take care of the ball and didn't play defense. It wasn't Porter's fault; he was obviously dog-tired.
Shaka Smart:
I already detailed Texas' choke job in a different thread. The last time Shaka won an NCAA tournament game, we were going to the Elite Eight.
Ben Howland:
In the NIT with Mississippi State, just like Marquette. We theoretically could play them in the semifinals at the Garden.
Bobby Hurley:
Arizona State's epic collapse this season was capped by a loss to Syracuse in Dayton. (I don't think we seriously considered Hurley, who had completed only 1 season at Buffalo when we were hiring a coach, but I know he has been brought up by a few Scoopers over the last couple of years.
Absolutely. No question.
To be the #1 overall seed in the Tourney?
To have and E8 and a S16 in the last few years?
To win conf titles?
To lose 2 regular season games all year?
Are you really asking if we would trade all of that success for one bad tourney loss?
crap happens. So what? Eternity, hey? Give me the successful program all day.
Quote from: We R Hagans to MU on March 17, 2018, 09:22:42 AM
Absolutely. No question.
To be the #1 overall seed in the Tourney?
To have and E8 and a S16 in the last few years?
To win conf titles?
To lose 2 regular season games all year?
Are you really asking if we would trade all of that success for one bad tourney loss?
crap happens. So what? Eternity, hey? Give me the successful program all day.
The worse loss in college basketball history, along with the worst style of basketball ever played?
Keep it.
Quote from: We R Hagans to MU on March 17, 2018, 09:22:42 AM
Absolutely. No question.
To be the #1 overall seed in the Tourney?
To have and E8 and a S16 in the last few years?
To win conf titles?
To lose 2 regular season games all year?
Are you really asking if we would trade all of that success for one bad tourney loss?
crap happens. So what? Eternity, hey? Give me the successful program all day.
Sure, that's what I'm asking. It's not a life-or-death decision. It's a fun conversation.
I have always said that your seed in the tourney is a much better indicator of how good of a season you had then how you did in the actual tournament. Why base your evaluation on a few games in March when you have over two dozen to evaluate?
Of course....that doesn't account for going in the history books forever as the first 1 seed to fall to a 16 seed. That is forever. I feel for Mr. Bennett and the Cavs.
Forde danced around the idea in his article. I will just throw it out there and watch the thread blow up......
What if Bennett and the pack line are just a slightly different version of Bo and the swing? A system coach that wins lots of games but usually flames out in the tourney to inferior teams. So wedded to his system that there is no plan b when the system is getting shredded. One who will only have success with players who can make plays outside the system? Is Bennett the new Bo, without all of the a-hole qualities?
You can cut it any way you want, but Cuonzo is in the tourney. You're a guy who likes facts, right?
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Tennessee
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Cal.
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Mizzou
These are facts. Facts don't lie. Facts are fun. Facts.
Feel free to rebut these FACTS with "context."
Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:
1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."
Quote from: MU82 on March 17, 2018, 09:45:11 AM
Sure, that's what I'm asking. It's not a life-or-death decision. It's a fun conversation.
Well in that case put me down for the NIT.
I would rather not have great success beating the Dukes and UNCs of the world, consistent top 5 defense, E8, S16, #1 seed in March, win 30+ games. The thought of losing one game in the tournament is just too much to handle. NIT all day--it safer.
Quote from: MU82 on March 17, 2018, 09:45:11 AM
Sure, that's what I'm asking. It's not a life-or-death decision. It's a fun conversation.
Emotional wins or losses are remembered forever. Davidson would have been remembered if we choked that one down to our dying breathes just as the miracle finish will be.
Your question, though, is on the rational side, however. Would I prefer a lifetime of despair or the promise of future potential? Pretty easy choice.
According to some Scoopers UVA wasn't one of the 32 best teams in the country this season.
#overrated
Quote from: Eldon on March 17, 2018, 09:54:39 AM
You can cut it any way you want, but Cuonzo is in the tourney. You're a guy who likes facts, right?
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Tennessee
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Cal.
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Mizzou
These are facts. Facts don't lie. Facts are fun. Facts.
Feel free to rebut these FACTS with "context."
Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:
1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."
Sure, have it both ways. Lol.
Quote from: tower912 on March 17, 2018, 09:49:17 AM
Forde danced around the idea in his article. I will just throw it out there and watch the thread blow up......
What if Bennett and the pack line are just a slightly different version of Bo and the swing? A system coach that wins lots of games but usually flames out in the tourney to inferior teams. So wedded to his system that there is no plan b when the system is getting shredded. One who will only have success with players who can make plays outside the system? Is Bennett the new Bo, without all of the a-hole qualities?
No, that comparison doesn't really stick IMO. First of all, Bo went to back to back FF's and they beat some damn good teams in those runs so he proved they could win with his "system." UW had some early flame outs under Bo but no loss that comes nearly as bad as the #1 overall seed losing to a 16 seed for the biggest upset in college basketball history.
Also, programs like UW and Virginia need to have systems like that. They are never going to have the talent of Duke, UNC, Kentucky, etc. Almost all of good non blue blood programs have a system/style that helps them to compete with the big boys.
Virginia on it's worst day ran into UMBC on it's best day and lost. That's what makes the tourney great.
Dick Bennett made a Final 4. Bo was Grayson Allen away from winning the national title.
Stuff happens in the tournament. A low scoring team is always at risk of running in to a hot shooting opponent. The stars aligned for UMBC. Virginia wins 99/100 but UMBC won the 1 that counted.
Quote from: hagansworld on March 17, 2018, 10:16:15 AM
According to some Scoopers UVA wasn't one of the 32 best teams in the country this season.
#overrated
X or UVA, most overrated?
Quote from: PTM + Hagans = Us on March 17, 2018, 10:22:45 AM
X or UVA, most overrated?
Well X proved they are a top 32 team and UVA proved they are not. Plus UVA came in "rated" higher. So I'll say UVA more overrated. In fact, most overrated in the history of all of sport.
I will say this about Bo: He did adjust his style of play on the F4 runs to open up the offense (and to get over the hump, so to speak). The one problem with the Swing is that it is a terrible offense to come back from a big deficit.
Quote from: hagansworld on March 17, 2018, 10:24:20 AM
Well X proved they are a top 32 team and UVA proved they are not. Plus UVA came in "rated" higher. So I'll say UVA more overrated. In fact, most overrated in the history of all of sport.
Agreed on all accounts. Insightful.
I forget what the exact numbers were but UVA had the top rated defense in the country and UMBC had something like the 212th offensive efficiency in the country. Absolutely wild.
That is exactly why saying "Let's wait to see what happens in the Tourney" when discussing whether a team is "overrated" or not is silly. I don't think even UMBC's players, coaches, admins, etc. would argue they are a better basketball team than UVA. It takes 40 minutes of bad play by one team and good play by the other.
Definitely would take the success with the bad loss! It couldn't ever get any worse after that and only be up. Regarding the Bennetts, I always thought their style would allow their teams with inferior athleticism to stick with the big guys. On the flip side, it always let the mid major teams stick around when the Bennetts were at a big school.
Fun topic to debate. If given a choice of coaches at MU, I'd rank the above in this order:
Bennett
Smart
Cuonzo
Wojo
Howland
The comparisons of Wojo to guys who have legitimate skins on the wall is silly. Wojo is called into question here, by some, because he's yet to do anything close to exceeding expectation in a given year, 4-years in. At best some will say he's met expectations, at worst, some would say he's underperformed given the talent/elite offensive teams he's had each of the last two years.
Quote from: hagansworld on March 17, 2018, 10:28:15 AM
I forget what the exact numbers were but UVA had the top rated defense in the country and UMBC had something like the 212th offensive efficiency in the country. Absolutely wild.
That is exactly why saying "Let's wait to see what happens in the Tourney" when discussing whether a team is "overrated" or not is silly. I don't think even UMBC's players, coaches, admins, etc. would argue they are a better basketball team than UVA. It takes 40 minutes of bad play by one team and good play by the other.
One point to add on UVA as the overall #1 seed, which makes UMBC the 68th seed--they didn't lose by a bucket or a fluke, but by frickin' 20 points.
Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 10:30:34 AM
Fun topic to debate. If given a choice of coaches at MU, I'd rank the above in this order:
Bennett
Smart
Cuonzo
Wojo
Howland
The comparison's of Wojo to guys who have legitimate skins on the wall is silly. Wojo is called into question here, by some, because he's yet to do anything close to exceeding expectation in a given year, 4-years in. At best some will say he's met expectations, at worst, some would say he's underperformed given the talent/elite offensive teams he's had each of the last two years.
I'd flip Cuonzo and Wojo. Cuonzo jumps from place to place. Wojo seems like he'll be here for the long haul. Maybe that's just because nobody has come calling. I also don't think Cuonzo's going to be able to continue hiring a recruit's father and end up with 2 NBAers as a result.
I'd take Bennett by far first and it's not even close. I'm not sure there are 5 coaches in America I'd take over Bennett to coach a college team. Including the NBA.
Smart had a great system for a midmajor program. So far it hasn't translated all that well to the high major level where everyone he plays against can match the length and athleticism on his roster. I'd take Smart over Wojo right now, but wouldn't be surprised if Wojo at Marquette ends up better than Shaka at Texas, a program that has just as many resources and a much larger local talent pool to pick from.
Howland I wouldn't want at all.
Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 10:30:34 AM
Fun topic to debate. If given a choice of coaches at MU, I'd rank the above in this order:
Bennett
Smart
Cuonzo
Wojo
Howland
The comparisons of Wojo to guys who have legitimate skins on the wall is silly. Wojo is called into question here, by some, because he's yet to do anything close to exceeding expectation in a given year, 4-years in. At best some will say he's met expectations, at worst, some would say he's underperformed given the talent/elite offensive teams he's had each of the last two years.
Your ridiculous outrage would have been on blast if Bennett was your coach last night. STFU.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on March 17, 2018, 10:32:27 AM
One point to add on UVA as the overall #1 seed, which makes UMBC the 68th seed--they didn't lose by a bucket or a fluke, but by frickin' 20 points.
#FakeNews
#Lies
This isn't true. That's not how it works.
UMBC was the 63rd seed.
Quote from: hagansworld on March 17, 2018, 10:35:56 AM
I'd flip Cuonzo and Wojo. Cuonzo jumps from place to place. Wojo seems like he'll be here for the long haul. Maybe that's just because nobody has come calling. I also don't think Cuonzo's going to be able to continue hiring a recruit's father and end up with 2 NBAers as a result.
I'd take Bennett by far first and it's not even close. I'm not sure there are 5 coaches in America I'd take over Bennett to coach a college team. Including the NBA.
Smart had a great system for a midmajor program. So far it hasn't translated all that well to the high major level where everyone he plays against can match the length and athleticism on his roster. I'd take Smart over Wojo right now, but wouldn't be surprised if Wojo at Marquette ends up better than Shaka at Texas, a program that has just as many resources and a much larger local talent pool to pick from.
Howland I wouldn't want at all.
Solid post Wades. I do agree that Wojo will likely be a loyal guy, and more prone to staying at MU, than would Cuonzo. There is value in that.
I don't have absurd expectations for the MU program. If Wojo can gets us to a point where we perform comparably to what Buzz accomplished, I'd be totally satisfied. Would like to see a slight improvement over Crean's performance, but would ultimately be satisfied if Wojo can replicate Crean's accomplishments.
I'm just concerned that Wojo doesn't quite have the coaching chops/nuance/intuition necessary to be a really good coach. Will learn more next year.
Quote from: Jay Bee on March 17, 2018, 10:46:11 AM
#FakeNews
#Lies
This isn't true. That's not how it works.
UMBC was the 63rd seed.
Ha ha. So true. I thought UMBC was a play-in 16.
#senile
Quote from: PTM + Hagans = Us on March 17, 2018, 10:38:18 AM
Your ridiculous outrage would have been on blast if Bennett was your coach last night. STFU.
As would every other fan in UVA's place last night. 99% would be off the rails in the moment. That said, perspective matters. Just watch my level of "ridiculous outrage," once Wojo leads us to Big East titles, consistent NCAA bids and occasional Sweet 16s. Newsflash: You won't read any from me. So, until then. STFU
That aside, I do admire your ability to accept unnecessary mediocrity in such a measured manner.
Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 11:12:44 AM
As would every other fan in UVA's place last night. 99% would be off the rails in the moment. That said, perspective matters. Just watch my level of "ridiculous outrage," once Wojo leads us to Big East titles, consistent NCAA bids and occasional Sweet 16s. Newsflash: You won't read any from me. So, until then. STFU
That aside, I do admire your ability to accept unnecessary mediocrity in such a measured manner.
How many fire Bennett threads do you think you would have started last night?
If we've learned anything from your past, it's that your perspective is terrible.
Quote from: PTM + Hagans = Us on March 17, 2018, 11:47:53 AM
How many fire Bennett threads do you think you would have started last night?
If we've learned anything from your past, it's that your perspective is terrible.
Find one "Fire Wojo" thread I've started here. Good luck. Please enlighten me and fill me in on all of the terrible perspective I've posted here. I'll hang up and listen.
Quote from: Eldon on March 17, 2018, 09:54:39 AM
You can cut it any way you want, but Cuonzo is in the tourney. You're a guy who likes facts, right?
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Tennessee
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Cal.
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Mizzou
These are facts. Facts don't lie. Facts are fun. Facts.
Feel free to rebut these FACTS with "context."
Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:
1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."
You're right, Eldon, I love facts! Please tell me where in my post I claimed as a fact that Wojo was better than Martin?
Fact is, I claimed nothing even close to that. I gave the facts about Martin's loss yesterday (as well as an opinion about him sticking too long with Porter), and you provided some other facts about Martin. There is nothing for me to "rebut." I don't rebut facts.
Like everybody else here, I do have opinions, so ...
What I will say about Martin is that he seems to have "happy feet," and he certainly left Cal in bad shape after he bolted. Is there any reason to believe he would have seen Marquette as anything but a stepping-stone job, any reason to think he wouldn't have left us in the lurch?
In my OP, I also never mentioned Howland's "lack of success." I merely gave a fact. He is in the NIT, as is Wojo. There wasn't even a trace of opinion in what I said.
Having said that ...
I like to think Howland didn't take Mississippi State as a "throw in the towel" move, and I doubt he did. Coaches are some of the most competitive people on the face of the earth, and they aren't wired to think like that.
What is possible is that it was a "desperate attempt to re-start my career" move. Nobody else would have him, and at his age he doesn't have much more time to get going again, so he went to a place in the middle of nowhere to see if he could resurrect his career. Even a decent showing at Mississippi State for 2-3 years could be enough to get a better program to hire him for one last go-round.
I am glad Marquette didn't hire him. Too "squirmy," as a friend of ours would say. I'm also glad we didn't hire Martin, whom I truly believe would have looked to bolt at the first opportunity.
Like just about every other Scooper, I was hoping for Shaka. We offered him, he chose to go with Mrs. Shaka to Austin, which is fine. So far, he has done nothing special at Texas, and he has yet to show he's anything more than a guy who happened to catch lightning in a bottle at a mid-major. He's still young and, one would assume, improving. So we'll see.
Shaka SHOULD be miles ahead of Wojo. He has considerably more experience, and he has gotten near the mountaintop. A better comparison to Shaka probably would be his peer, Brad Stevens - who also was a young wunderkind who took an underdog to the 2011 Final Four. The difference is that Stevens actually advanced to his second straight championship game - and came within a whisker of winning a title. Stevens went on to prove he is a brilliant coach, capable of leading an NBA franchise, while Smart has proven ... what?
Please note that I'm not saying Wojo has proven anything either, and I certainly am not saying Wojo is a better coach than Shaka.
Hurley ... who knows? If Wojo had losing seasons his first two years at MU, and then started his third 12-0 to move up to No. 3 in the rankings ... only to limp home 8-12 the rest of the way including 8-10 in the Big East ... capped by a blowout BET tournament loss to a bad team and a First Four loss ... how excited would most folks around ScoopLand be to proclaim him a great young coach?
Now I've got to go umpire a couple of youth baseball games. So as Linda Richman used to say on Coffee Talk:
"Talk amongst yourselves."
Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 11:52:53 AM
Find one "Fire Wojo" thread I've started here. Good luck. Please enlighten me and fill me in on all of the terrible perspective I've posted here. I'll hang up and listen.
John Dawson.
Deonte Burton's transfer.
2017 zone.
Wojo's 3 consecutive big east wins.
You've been good on a lot of things too.
Quote from: Eldon on March 17, 2018, 09:54:39 AM
Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:
1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."
He makes $2.05 million
Mississippi State has a Final four in the 90's.
Let's not forget Shaka done deal. He self selected out so I would put him to the bottom of the list. Above Howland and Cuonzo. Which leaves Wojo, Bennett and Hurley. Bennett has the best background so I would likely put him at the top of the list. Let's also not forget Hurley came from Duke as well so we would still hear from the Wojo haters who only dislike him because he is from Duke. Hurley did make the tourney but in a historically bad PAC12. Only conference that hasn't sent a team into the second round. A good coach in a bad league doesn't necessarily translate. I look at Wojo's teams getting better every year and I say trajectory is good so I would give him a slight advantage.
Bennett
Wojo
Hurley
Shaka
——— NCAA Violation increases
Cuonzo
Howland
Quote from: Eldon on March 17, 2018, 09:54:39 AM
Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:
1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."
1) Yes, but the south has a lot of talent, and M-State is a desirable location for them. Hence a final 4 in the 90's.
2). Not true. Miss. St. spends $70M each year on athletics. Budget wise, they end up allocating a lot of common resources to Football, even if it is used extensively by Basketball. It allows them to show that more sports are generating profit. Resources wise, they are on par with MU.
3) Also not true. Stansbury was 292-166, averaging 21 wins per season, was ranked 6 seasons and made 6 tournaments. Miss St. screwed up his retirement hiring Rick Ray who had a dismal 3 seasons before being replaced by Howland. They were a very solid basketball school, who had 1 bad hire.