Wojo-Bennett

[MU82]

As TAMU wrote a couple weeks back in his good article on new coaches rebuilding programs, Bennett's first 4 seasons at Virginia were eerily similar to Wojo's first 4 at Marquette.

Question:

Would we all be fine if Wojo replicates exactly what Bennett has done at UVa starting in Year 5 (3 conference titles; S16-R32-E8-R32-R64 in NCAAs) ... if we somehow knew in advance that our Warriors would cap off Year 9 with an historic, humiliating loss that will be remembered for all of eternity?

Meanwhile ... here's a little more fun ... a look at how the Not-Quite-Marquette coaches have fared:

Cuonzo Martin:

Missouri did not look ready to play and was pretty much never in its game against Florida State. They rallied a little in the second half but Martin stayed far too long with Michael Porter, who missed several ill-advised shots, didn't take care of the ball and didn't play defense. It wasn't Porter's fault; he was obviously dog-tired.

Shaka Smart:

I already detailed Texas' choke job in a different thread. The last time Shaka won an NCAA tournament game, we were going to the Elite Eight.

Ben Howland:

In the NIT with Mississippi State, just like Marquette. We theoretically could play them in the semifinals at the Garden.

Bobby Hurley:

Arizona State's epic collapse this season was capped by a loss to Syracuse in Dayton. (I don't think we seriously considered Hurley, who had completed only 1 season at Buffalo when we were hiring a coach, but I know he has been brought up by a few Scoopers over the last couple of years.

[We R Final Four]

Absolutely.  No question.

To be the #1 overall seed in the Tourney?
To have and E8 and a S16 in the last few years?
To win conf titles?
To lose 2 regular season games all year?

Are you really asking if we would trade all of that success for one bad tourney loss?

crap happens. So what?  Eternity, hey?  Give me the successful program all day.

[🏀]

Absolutely.  No question.

To be the #1 overall seed in the Tourney?
To have and E8 and a S16 in the last few years?
To win conf titles?
To lose 2 regular season games all year?

Are you really asking if we would trade all of that success for one bad tourney loss?

crap happens. So what?  Eternity, hey?  Give me the successful program all day.

The worse loss in college basketball history, along with the worst style of basketball ever played?

Keep it.

[MU82]

Absolutely.  No question.

To be the #1 overall seed in the Tourney?
To have and E8 and a S16 in the last few years?
To win conf titles?
To lose 2 regular season games all year?

Are you really asking if we would trade all of that success for one bad tourney loss?

crap happens. So what?  Eternity, hey?  Give me the successful program all day.

Sure, that's what I'm asking. It's not a life-or-death decision. It's a fun conversation.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have always said that your seed in the tourney is a much better indicator of how good of a season you had then how you did in the actual tournament. Why base your evaluation on a few games in March when you have over two dozen to evaluate?

Of course....that doesn't account for going in the history books forever as the first 1 seed to fall to a 16 seed. That is forever. I feel for Mr. Bennett and the Cavs.

[tower912]

Forde danced around the idea in his article.  I will just throw it out there and watch the thread blow up......
What if Bennett and the pack line are just a slightly different version of Bo and the swing?  A system coach that wins lots of games but usually flames out in the tourney to inferior teams.  So wedded to his system that there is no plan b when the system is getting shredded.  One who will only have success with players who can make plays outside the system?   Is Bennett the new Bo, without all of the a-hole qualities?

[Eldon]

You can cut it any way you want, but Cuonzo is in the tourney.  You're a guy who likes facts, right?

Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Tennessee
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Cal. 
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Mizzou

These are facts.  Facts don't lie.  Facts are fun.  Facts. 

Feel free to rebut these FACTS with "context."


Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:

1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."

[We R Final Four]

Sure, that's what I'm asking. It's not a life-or-death decision. It's a fun conversation.

Well in that case put me down for the NIT.

I would rather not have great success beating the Dukes and UNCs of the world, consistent top 5 defense, E8, S16, #1 seed in March, win 30+ games.  The thought of losing one game in the tournament is just too much to handle.  NIT all day--it safer.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Sure, that's what I'm asking. It's not a life-or-death decision. It's a fun conversation.

Emotional wins or losses are remembered forever. Davidson would have been remembered if we choked that one down to our dying breathes just as the miracle finish will be.

Your question, though, is on the rational side, however. Would I prefer a lifetime of despair or the promise of future potential?  Pretty easy choice.

[wadesworld]

According to some Scoopers UVA wasn't one of the 32 best teams in the country this season.

#overrated

[wadesworld]

You can cut it any way you want, but Cuonzo is in the tourney.  You're a guy who likes facts, right?

Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Tennessee
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Cal. 
Fact: Cuonzo made the tourney with Mizzou

These are facts.  Facts don't lie.  Facts are fun.  Facts. 

Feel free to rebut these FACTS with "context."


Regarding Howland, his lack of success at M-State can't really be used as a `counterfactual Marquette' for at least three reasons:

1) M-State is in the middle of nowhere
2) M-State has nowhere near the the bball resources that MU does (how much does Howland make at M-State?)
3) Howland landing at M-State--a terrible bball school--may have led him to say "ah, f*ck it...that SI article tainted my future...I'm effectively throwing in the towel."

Sure, have it both ways. Lol.

[GrimmReaper33]

Forde danced around the idea in his article.  I will just throw it out there and watch the thread blow up......
What if Bennett and the pack line are just a slightly different version of Bo and the swing?  A system coach that wins lots of games but usually flames out in the tourney to inferior teams.  So wedded to his system that there is no plan b when the system is getting shredded.  One who will only have success with players who can make plays outside the system?   Is Bennett the new Bo, without all of the a-hole qualities?

No, that comparison doesn't really stick IMO.  First of all, Bo went to back to back FF's and they beat some damn good teams in those runs so he proved they could win with his "system."  UW had some early flame outs under Bo but no loss that comes nearly as bad as the #1 overall seed losing to a 16 seed for the biggest upset in college basketball history.

Also, programs like UW and Virginia need to have systems like that.  They are never going to have the talent of Duke, UNC, Kentucky, etc.  Almost all of good non blue blood programs have a system/style that helps them to compete with the big boys.

Virginia on it's worst day ran into UMBC on it's best day and lost.  That's what makes the tourney great.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Dick Bennett made a Final 4.  Bo was Grayson Allen away from winning the national title.

Stuff happens in the tournament. A low scoring team is always at risk of running in to a hot shooting opponent.  The stars aligned for UMBC. Virginia wins 99/100 but UMBC won the 1 that counted.

[🏀]

According to some Scoopers UVA wasn't one of the 32 best teams in the country this season.

#overrated

X or UVA, most overrated?

[wadesworld]

X or UVA, most overrated?

Well X proved they are a top 32 team and UVA proved they are not. Plus UVA came in "rated" higher. So I'll say UVA more overrated. In fact, most overrated in the history of all of sport.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I will say this about Bo:  He did adjust his style of play on the F4 runs to open up the offense (and to get over the hump, so to speak). The one problem with the Swing is that it is a terrible offense to come back from a big deficit.

[🏀]

Well X proved they are a top 32 team and UVA proved they are not. Plus UVA came in "rated" higher. So I'll say UVA more overrated. In fact, most overrated in the history of all of sport.

Agreed on all accounts. Insightful.

[wadesworld]

I forget what the exact numbers were but UVA had the top rated defense in the country and UMBC had something like the 212th offensive efficiency in the country. Absolutely wild.

That is exactly why saying "Let's wait to see what happens in the Tourney" when discussing whether a team is "overrated" or not is silly. I don't think even UMBC's players, coaches, admins, etc. would argue they are a better basketball team than UVA. It takes 40 minutes of bad play by one team and good play by the other.

[lohaus]

Definitely would take the success with the bad loss! It couldn't ever get any worse after that and only be up.  Regarding the Bennetts, I always thought their style would allow their teams with inferior athleticism to stick with the big guys.  On the flip side, it always let the mid major teams stick around when the Bennetts  were at a big school.

[Floorslapper]

Fun topic to debate.  If given a choice of coaches at MU, I'd rank the above in this order:

Bennett
Smart
Cuonzo
Wojo
Howland

The comparisons of Wojo to guys who have legitimate skins on the wall is silly.  Wojo is called into question here, by some, because he's yet to do anything close to exceeding expectation in a given year, 4-years in.  At best some will say he's met expectations, at worst, some would say he's underperformed given the talent/elite offensive teams he's had each of the last two years.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I forget what the exact numbers were but UVA had the top rated defense in the country and UMBC had something like the 212th offensive efficiency in the country. Absolutely wild.

That is exactly why saying "Let's wait to see what happens in the Tourney" when discussing whether a team is "overrated" or not is silly. I don't think even UMBC's players, coaches, admins, etc. would argue they are a better basketball team than UVA. It takes 40 minutes of bad play by one team and good play by the other.

One point to add on UVA as the overall #1 seed, which makes UMBC the 68th seed--they didn't lose by a bucket or a fluke, but by frickin' 20 points.

[wadesworld]

Fun topic to debate.  If given a choice of coaches at MU, I'd rank the above in this order:

Bennett
Smart
Cuonzo
Wojo
Howland

The comparison's of Wojo to guys who have legitimate skins on the wall is silly.  Wojo is called into question here, by some, because he's yet to do anything close to exceeding expectation in a given year, 4-years in.  At best some will say he's met expectations, at worst, some would say he's underperformed given the talent/elite offensive teams he's had each of the last two years.

I'd flip Cuonzo and Wojo. Cuonzo jumps from place to place. Wojo seems like he'll be here for the long haul. Maybe that's just because nobody has come calling. I also don't think Cuonzo's going to be able to continue hiring a recruit's father and end up with 2 NBAers as a result.

I'd take Bennett by far first and it's not even close. I'm not sure there are 5 coaches in America I'd take over Bennett to coach a college team. Including the NBA.

Smart had a great system for a midmajor program. So far it hasn't translated all that well to the high major level where everyone he plays against can match the length and athleticism on his roster. I'd take Smart over Wojo right now, but wouldn't be surprised if Wojo at Marquette ends up better than Shaka at Texas, a program that has just as many resources and a much larger local talent pool to pick from.

Howland I wouldn't want at all.

[🏀]

Fun topic to debate.  If given a choice of coaches at MU, I'd rank the above in this order:

Bennett
Smart
Cuonzo
Wojo
Howland

The comparisons of Wojo to guys who have legitimate skins on the wall is silly.  Wojo is called into question here, by some, because he's yet to do anything close to exceeding expectation in a given year, 4-years in.  At best some will say he's met expectations, at worst, some would say he's underperformed given the talent/elite offensive teams he's had each of the last two years.

Your ridiculous outrage would have been on blast if Bennett was your coach last night. STFU.

[Jay Bee]

One point to add on UVA as the overall #1 seed, which makes UMBC the 68th seed--they didn't lose by a bucket or a fluke, but by frickin' 20 points.

#FakeNews
#Lies

This isn't true. That's not how it works.

UMBC was the 63rd seed.

[Floorslapper]

I'd flip Cuonzo and Wojo. Cuonzo jumps from place to place. Wojo seems like he'll be here for the long haul. Maybe that's just because nobody has come calling. I also don't think Cuonzo's going to be able to continue hiring a recruit's father and end up with 2 NBAers as a result.

I'd take Bennett by far first and it's not even close. I'm not sure there are 5 coaches in America I'd take over Bennett to coach a college team. Including the NBA.

Smart had a great system for a midmajor program. So far it hasn't translated all that well to the high major level where everyone he plays against can match the length and athleticism on his roster. I'd take Smart over Wojo right now, but wouldn't be surprised if Wojo at Marquette ends up better than Shaka at Texas, a program that has just as many resources and a much larger local talent pool to pick from.

Howland I wouldn't want at all.

Solid post Wades.  I do agree that Wojo will likely be a loyal guy, and more prone to staying at MU, than would Cuonzo.  There is value in that. 

I don't have absurd expectations for the MU program.  If Wojo can gets us to a point where we perform comparably to what Buzz accomplished, I'd be totally satisfied.  Would like to see a slight improvement over Crean's performance, but would ultimately be satisfied if Wojo can replicate Crean's accomplishments.

I'm just concerned that Wojo doesn't quite have the coaching chops/nuance/intuition necessary to be a really good coach.  Will learn more next year.