MUScoop

MU's current record against teams not seeded 1-2 in the NCAA tournament.    Which says to me...
1.   MU is a good but not great team.
2.   MU's schedule was tough
3.  0-6 against 1-2 seeds.   All of whom are significantly more experienced and deeper.   
4.   MU was not that far away.     Considering the roster composition....

The one thing the bad announcers said last night that was actually good was that you have to get old to win in college basketball.  (Unless you are full of one and dones.)

This team needs to get older.  It needs to mature physically and have more experience. 

Nice, optimistic post.

I agree that we are not far away.

Get the defense to at least the median point among P6 teams and get better with experience, and that will get us darn close to where we need to be. I've also been part of the "we need better PG play" crew, too.

The Big East is not a league for freshmen.     

Good news, the team will be a year older next season. I will be anxious to see how that plays out. IMO, the experience thing has been Wojo's talking point all season and the announcers ran with it. Again, good news is next year will be one year closer to not being too young. My only issue on the entire discussion comes down to talent. At this point I simply do not see the talent level being able to compete with 1-2 seeds next year. I get guys get better, but few get more talented.

I see young, skinny talent.  In the next year or two, that becomes experienced, more muscular talent.   The Big East is a grown assed man league.   That Marquette was 9-9 in with by far the youngest team in conference.

Tower

I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

Quote from: MU82 on March 15, 2018, 07:57:05 AMNice, optimistic post.

On MUScoop, that's the kind of post that gets beaten up in a dark alley and left for dead.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
Tower

I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

I see players who, as seniors could be similar to Seton Hall's seniors, minus Delgado.  Mix in Joey and Bailey and Eke.... get some guards.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

Cain has made the biggest strides. Brain still moves faster than his feet sometimes, but he's much better than he was early in the season.

He's got the best chance to be an all-league guy, I think.

Goose, despite all you didn't see, Marquette is 20-7 against non 1-2 tourney seeds.  So either there is some talent, Wojo is a wizard, or all of college basketball is lousy.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
Tower

I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

Greg and Jamal are skinny. Theo definitely is not.

Jamal has show the most improvement, and therefore would seem the safest bet for all-BE. But Greg has been playing with one thumb so it's hard to judge.

Whether or not Theo makes it to all-BE level, he will be a great asset because of his size.

Quote from: MUfan12 on March 15, 2018, 09:17:24 AM
Cain has made the biggest strides. Brain still moves faster than his feet sometimes, but he's much better than he was early in the season.

He's got the best chance to be an all-league guy, I think.

I do not see it, better players in the league.  I can not see Cain even being the best player on MU.  Right now he travels a couple of times a game.
Looks like he is unsure what to do.  Not sure he can put on the weight to get stronger, his shoulder width is tiny.  He might be out-recruited next
year with Joey, will have to fight for time next year.  It is unusual for a player to be better from the 3 then the free throw line but he is right now.
Up to him to grow his game.

The freshman class is exactly the type of class you need to become a great college basketball team.  Do I think any of them become First Team All Big East?  No.  Do I think they will need to be First Team All Big East?  No.  I think they need to be tenacious, athletic complimentary players to the two classes that sandwich them, which each have players that I think could and/or will become First Team All Big East players in the future (Sam and Markus in the sophomore class, with Morrow and Sacar as great complimentary player to those two in that class, and Joey and Bailey in the class behind them).

You aren't going to get First Team All Big East players in every single class.  What players are First Team All Big East from Xavier's junior class?

Wojo's biggest issue has been his inability to keep classes like the freshman class together and in the program for four years.  If he can do that with these freshman we'll be in great shape going forward, assuming the addition of a ball handler along the way.

Quote from: DCHoopster on March 15, 2018, 09:34:14 AM
I do not see it, better players in the league.  I can not see Cain even being the best player on MU.  Right now he travels a couple of times a game.
Looks like he is unsure what to do.  Not sure he can put on the weight to get stronger, his shoulder width is tiny.  He might be out-recruited next
year with Joey, will have to fight for time next year.  It is unusual for a player to be better from the 3 then the free throw line but he is right now.
Up to him to grow his game.

A freshman that has multiple travels a game.  Kinda like Matt and his multiple moving screens a game freshman year. That problem went away , I see no reason why Jamals won't too. What makes you think he can't put on weight? I would think thatd be the easiest thing to fix with his game. I also don't see him playing the same position as Joey, and he could very well be here after joey leaves, so I don't think being recruited over is a big problem.

Quote from: MUfan12 on March 15, 2018, 09:17:24 AM
Cain has made the biggest strides. Brain still moves faster than his feet sometimes, but he's much better than he was early in the season.

He's got the best chance to be an all-league guy, I think.

This is exactly how I've felt about Cain. I think he's a good, versatile guy that will be a very strong two way player in a year or two. He obviously needs to bulk up a bit to be able to spend a little more time in the paint, but I think he's on a nice trajectory up. I can see him making an all Big East team by his junior or senior year.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 09:27:41 AM
Goose, despite all you didn't see, Marquette is 20-7 against non 1-2 tourney seeds.  So either there is some talent, Wojo is a wizard, or all of college basketball is lousy.

Forget it we could be top 10 next year and he would find something to complain about.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 15, 2018, 09:31:24 AM
Greg and Jamal are skinny. Theo definitely is not.

Jamal has show the most improvement, and therefore would seem the safest bet for all-BE. But Greg has been playing with one thumb so it's hard to judge.

Whether or not Theo makes it to all-BE level, he will be a great asset because of his size.

Does anyone know what the injury is that Greg's been dealing with? How limiting has it been? Is it more the actual injury that is likely affecting his play, or the brace he has to wear?

Wojo has said that Greg will probably need surgery after the season.  Guessing some kind of tendon tear.  IMO, If Duane and Hasn't had stayed, Greg would have red shirted and already had the surgery.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 09:27:41 AM
Goose, despite all you didn't see, Marquette is 20-7 against non 1-2 tourney seeds.  So either there is some talent, Wojo is a wizard, or all of college basketball is lousy.

The 20-7 stat is fun but it's fairly empty. 15 of those wins and 3 of those losses came against teams that didn't make the tournament at all.

I'm not arguing that MU doesn't have talent or that they're "far away" but if MU wins one of those 6 games against 1-2 seeds, they'd be dancing.

Quote from: DCHoopster on March 15, 2018, 09:34:14 AM
I do not see it, better players in the league.  I can not see Cain even being the best player on MU.  Right now he travels a couple of times a game.
Looks like he is unsure what to do.  Not sure he can put on the weight to get stronger, his shoulder width is tiny.  He might be out-recruited next
year with Joey, will have to fight for time next year.  It is unusual for a player to be better from the 3 then the free throw line but he is right now.
Up to him to grow his game.

Here's what I see:

-Skinny kid who will bulk up with a full summer of weight training.
-Someone that still needs the game to slow down at times.
-Good outside shooter, who hasn't shot well in less than 1 FTA per game. That will improve.
-Excellent defensive awareness, with the length to be very disruptive in passing lanes and as a help defender at the rim.
-For a freshman, he has very good understanding of spacing and floor balance on the offensive end, and makes intelligent cuts to the basket.

You're right, it is up to him to improve. But he and Greg both have good understanding of the game, and the physical tools to be very good players.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 15, 2018, 09:12:00 AM
On MUScoop, that's the kind of post that gets beaten up in a dark alley and left for dead.

Marquette climb in the conference standings and individual guys making 1st, 2nd and HM Big East typically goes hand in hand.

The difference in strength between a BE team and a Harvard was so incredibly noticeable last night. I don't think I appreciated it as much as I should have. Being young (weak) is a huge detriment

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 15, 2018, 09:46:14 AM
The 20-7 stat is fun but it's fairly empty. 15 of those wins and 3 of those losses came against teams that didn't make the tournament at all.

I'm not arguing that MU doesn't have talent or that they're "far away" but if MU wins one of those 6 games against 1-2 seeds, they'd be dancing.

And all of Villanova and X's wins came against tournament teams?  Everyone plays cupcakes and non-tourney teams.

The point is, MU did pretty good against everyone not named Nova, X & Purdue.  3 of the best damn teams in the country, but also half of our losses.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 15, 2018, 09:46:14 AM
The 20-7 stat is fun but it's fairly empty. 15 of those wins and 3 of those losses came against teams that didn't make the tournament at all.

I'm not arguing that MU doesn't have talent or that they're "far away" but if MU wins one of those 6 games against 1-2 seeds, they'd be dancing.

So, Marquette is 5-4 against tourney teams other than 1-2 seeds.   That makes my argument fairly sound.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 15, 2018, 09:46:14 AM
The 20-7 stat is fun but it's fairly empty. 15 of those wins and 3 of those losses came against teams that didn't make the tournament at all.

I'm not arguing that MU doesn't have talent or that they're "far away" but if MU wins one of those 6 games against 1-2 seeds, they'd be dancing.

I agree. Calling MU a good team is a bit of a stretch. We have some good pieces, but I just do not see this team jumping to the top 4 in the BE unless Wojo lands a few gems in the off season. If he cannot get a PG prepare for a repeat of this season.

Quote from: 79Warrior on March 15, 2018, 09:53:42 AM
I agree. Calling MU a good team is a bit of a stretch. We have some good pieces, but I just do not see this team jumping to the top 4 in the BE unless Wojo lands a few gems in the off season. If he cannot get a PG prepare for a repeat of this season.

. Wojo already has two gems coming in with Morrow and the younger Hauser.  Gotta get that PG.

In conference, 0-6 against Butler, Xavier, and Villanova.   9-3 against Creighton, Providence, SJU, Depaul,  Georgetown, and Seton Hall.  9-3.  OOC, losses to 2 seed Purdue and 4 seed Wichita.  BTW, the two oldest teams MU played in the OOC.  9-1 against the rest of college basketball.

Marquette is a good team.  A very young team.  Clearly with flaws.  And a lack of depth.

newsdreams

You obviously do not read my posts. If you truly believe that, you are off your rocker. Just because I do not agree with everyone here does not equate to my not wanting to see success. Actually, my bar for success might be higher than many on here.

wadesworld

Of course you do not need first team BE players to play at high level. That said, if you do not have that, you need everything to fall into place, role players to play their role everyday and outstanding coaching. For me, I think having some studs helps stack the deck in your favor. Again, that is my take.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:14:55 AM
newsdreams

You obviously do not read my posts. If you truly believe that, you are off your rocker. Just because I do not agree with everyone here does not equate to my not wanting to see success. Actually, my bar for success might be higher than many on here.

wadesworld

Of course you do not need first team BE players to play at high level. That said, if you do not have that, you need everything to fall into place, role players to play their role everyday and outstanding coaching. For me, I think having some studs helps stack the deck in your favor. Again, that is my take.

Beware the intelligencia. Remember the SNL beygency skit? Where people come for you if you have anything less than complimentary of Beyonce? It's kinda like that around here most of the time too.

(http://78.media.tumblr.com/5b948299283b933d8da4d238d2cbe467/tumblr_n51bf4c3u31t1631yo6_250.gif)

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:14:55 AM
newsdreams

You obviously do not read my posts. If you truly believe that, you are off your rocker. Just because I do not agree with everyone here does not equate to my not wanting to see success. Actually, my bar for success might be higher than many on here.

wadesworld

Of course you do not need first team BE players to play at high level. That said, if you do not have that, you need everything to fall into place, role players to play their role everyday and outstanding coaching. For me, I think having some studs helps stack the deck in your favor. Again, that is my take.

I agree you need studs to succeed at a high level.  My point is that you don't need those superstar studs in every single class.  You need a couple on your roster at all times, and the rest of your guys need to know their role and play it well.  To me, the classes before and after this freshman class will produce the studs you need.  The freshman class needs to produce the role players.  If all 3 hang around for all 4 years, they will be a very important part of a number of highly successful teams without any of them individually playing at a First Team All Big East level.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 09:52:53 AM
So, Marquette is 5-4 against tourney teams other than 1-2 seeds.   That makes my argument fairly sound.

This feels like a glass half-full vs. half-empty situation. My thinking is that going 5-4 against good teams is a nice record, but going 0-6 against very good/great teams isn't going to cut it.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 09:27:41 AM
Goose, despite all you didn't see, Marquette is 20-7 against non 1-2 tourney seeds.  So either there is some talent, Wojo is a wizard, or all of college basketball is lousy.

We are an elite 3 point shooting team.  That is the "wizardry" of our team.  We lose a huge contributor to our "sauce" next year with Rowsey leaving.  NOBODY is going to come in and replicate what Rowsey accomplished.

I simply don't see enough defensive upside, or coaching ability, to suggest that we'll be able to improve to a "high seed" in the NCAA next year, given that it is highly probably we decline in the ranks on 3 point shooting percentage/attempts next year.  Yes, I'm aware Joey Hauser is thought to be a good 3 point shooter. 

High attempts and high 3-point shooting percentage is usually the formula for elite performance.  For us, it has led to a 10 seed and a missed NCAA. 

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 15, 2018, 10:23:56 AM
This feels like a glass half-full vs. half-empty situation. My thinking is that going 5-4 against good teams is a nice record, but going 0-6 against very good/great teams isn't going to cut it.

I choose to be a glass half full person.    MU accomplished what it did with the youngest team in the Big East.   One of the youngest in D1.     Only two of comparable youth made the dance.   Duke and Kentucky.      It all ties together if you choose to look at the big picuture and take a long view with a half-full perspective.    The youth, the small roster, the tough schedule.... and still with 20-7 record against non top-10 teams.    From my glass half full perspective, that is an accomplishment with this roster and a building block for next year.   

quote from Wojo..."nobody in this locker room has ever won a tournament game before."    Clearly talking about post Big East games.    Also indicative of where the program has been and the lack of experience.      Building block. 

Quote from: skianth16 on March 15, 2018, 09:41:44 AM
Does anyone know what the injury is that Greg's been dealing with? How limiting has it been? Is it more the actual injury that is likely affecting his play, or the brace he has to wear?

When you see Greg play in person , versus TV, you get a better feel for how the injury is limiting his handle. He is kind of restricted to being more of a north south player . I think when it heals he will have more tools at his disposal such as a crossover. The fact that he is playing through the injury, not using it as excuse and giving consistent strong performance speaks to his upside.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 10:30:29 AM
I choose to be a glass half full person.    MU accomplished what it did with the youngest team in the Big East.   One of the youngest in D1.     Only two of comparable youth made the dance.   Duke and Kentucky.      It all ties together if you choose to look at the big picuture and take a long view with a half-full perspective.    The youth, the small roster, the tough schedule.... and still with 20-7 record against non top-10 teams.    From my glass half full perspective, that is an accomplishment with this roster and a building block for next year.

Good building block for next year for sure. After next year, we're no longer young. Some of the mistakes we saw even late this year need to get cleaned up. I expect they will, and I expect that to lead to more consistency next year. I think we'll have a good chance that we win all the games we're supposed to. Hopefully we win a few more than we lose of the toss-ups, and then we pull out a surprise or two. A year like that should have us dancing no problem, looking for a good seed.

Remember when Vander Blue couldn't run the fast break or drive the lane without committing an offensive foul? He was incredibly athletic and quick, but played out of control during his freshman year. His outside shooting was cringe-worthy. Was he the exact same player for the next two seasons? Of course not.

I see the potential in Greg, Jamal and Theo. I expect that it will develop because that's what young athletes do.

0-7 against Ken Pom top 25.
4-9 if you stretch to Ken Pom top 30 which then includes SH, Butler, and Creighton.

I wouldn't say they are a "good team", they are an average major conference team.

Quote from: MUfan12 on March 15, 2018, 09:46:40 AM
Here's what I see:

-Skinny kid who will bulk up with a full summer of weight training.
-Someone that still needs the game to slow down at times.
-Good outside shooter, who hasn't shot well in less than 1 FTA per game. That will improve.
-Excellent defensive awareness, with the length to be very disruptive in passing lanes and as a help defender at the rim.
-For a freshman, he has very good understanding of spacing and floor balance on the offensive end, and makes intelligent cuts to the basket.

You're right, it is up to him to improve. But he and Greg both have good understanding of the game, and the physical tools to be very good players.

I agree on your points, both Greg and Cain will be at MU for 3 more years.  I can see a big jump in body building in 2 years, Sam looked bigger
this year.  Saw the floor a lot this year, both will get better, both need to work on ball handling.  Greg you can tell has issues with his thumb.
Both can hit the three.  Both need to work on getting to the hole.  I like there upside potential. 

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:14:55 AM
newsdreams

You obviously do not read my posts. If you truly believe that, you are off your rocker. Just because I do not agree with everyone here does not equate to my not wanting to see success. Actually, my bar for success might be higher than many on here.

wadesworld

Of course you do not need first team BE players to play at high level. That said, if you do not have that, you need everything to fall into place, role players to play their role everyday and outstanding coaching. For me, I think having some studs helps stack the deck in your favor. Again, that is my take.

Hi Goose. Curious as to how you define "stud."

I assume we can agree that Wade was a stud from the moment he put on an MU uni. Beyond that ...

Probably Jae, although when he was a junior averaging 12 points he hardly looked like a future BE POY. JFB as a sophomore ... not a single thing there screamed "stud to be." Lazar? Maybe, but he only averaged 13 as a sophomore. None of those 3 studs-to-be were as far along as Sam at this point in their careers, were they?

Dominic looked like a stud-to-be as a freshman but really became more of a role player. Novak ... didn't look even close to studly till his senior year. And so on.

Markus averaged 20 ppg in a tough conference, had 52 and 37 in consecutive road games against Providence and Villanova, led the nation in 3% as a freshman and is second nationally in FT% as a soph. He's neither a stud now nor has any chance of being one?

Sam improved across the board as a soph, averaged 15-6, finished second nationally in 3%, does everything well (not great, but well), and makes few mistakes. He's neither a stud now nor has any chance of being one?

If those two guys are role players, I'll take 2-3 more just like them, please! Maybe Joey, Morrow, Bailey, Cain and Elliott will be just as good "role players." I'd happily take that - especially if we get a real PG.

I covered the great Illinois teams of the mid-aughts, and the stud back then was thought to be Dee Brown ... until Deron Williams emerged as the true stud as a junior. Dee became more of a role player, as did Head, Augustine and Powell. Darn good players ... and a team that almost won the title.

What I'm saying is we might not know who our big stud is yet ... but we do already know that we have at least 2 big-time "role players," and probably a third in Morrow.

There is talent here.

wades

Again, this is were we differ in opinion. I believe Howard is very legit #2 guard and would play a lot of minutes at almost every program in the country. I expect him to have similar, not better, success his next seasons. Sam to me is an A++++ upper end role player. I hate using the word role player in regards to Sam, but I do not think he is someone that you would build a team around for the next two seasons. I expect him to play at similar level next two seasons. I think both have likely maxed out on their upside. For the record, I am big time fan of Sam's.

So, where are the studs? Are you counting on Joey being a sure fire stud, or one of the other newcomers? To me, Wojo is piecing together a very example of UW team/program and the Badgers have had great success. I have no problem with that model, if the coaching matches the Bo success. With this model, we better hope Wojo is more Bo than Gard.

MU82

Good post. To me, a stud is a guy that can change game in his team's favor on a consistent basis. As my previous post stated, I think Howard and Sam are very good players, but not game changers night in and night out. I get the game changed, but needing guys to score 30, 40 or 50 points to win a game is not a recipe for long term success, IMO.

Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on March 15, 2018, 10:40:27 AM
0-7 against Ken Pom top 25.
4-9 if you stretch to Ken Pom top 30 which then includes SH, Butler, and Creighton.

I wouldn't say they are a "good team", they are an average major conference team.

So, 4-7 against the top 9%, 16-6 against the other 91%.   All in how you choose to look at it.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:47:56 AM
wades

Again, this is were we differ in opinion. I believe Howard is very legit #2 guard and would play a lot of minutes at almost every program in the country. I expect him to have similar, not better, success his next seasons. Sam to me is an A++++ upper end role player. I hate using the word role player in regards to Sam, but I do not think he is someone that you would build a team around for the next two seasons. I expect him to play at similar level next two seasons. I think both have likely maxed out on their upside. For the record, I am big time fan of Sam's.

So, where are the studs? Are you counting on Joey being a sure fire stud, or one of the other newcomers? To me, Wojo is piecing together a very example of UW team/program and the Badgers have had great success. I have no problem with that model, if the coaching matches the Bo success. With this model, we better hope Wojo is more Bo than Gard.

A bit harsh to write the guys off before the end of their sophomore years...

Let me ask you goose, what was Jimmy butler each year in your eyes?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 15, 2018, 10:23:56 AM
This feels like a glass half-full vs. half-empty situation. My thinking is that going 5-4 against good teams is a nice record, but going 0-6 against very good/great teams isn't going to cut it.

Exactly. But I think it shows we aren't far off if taken together.

Boxer

Hardly writing either guy off. They both will go down as very highly rated players in program history, simply by stats. If they have on court success, they will even be more highly rated.

As for Butler, he passed the eye test the first time I saw him play. That said, I would not have expected the ultimate end product being as good it was/is.

We have seen Howard and Sam play over sixty games and that is a pretty good sample size. To boot they have played at high level, making upside more difficult. If they end up showing great upside improvement over next two years, they likely would go down as very, very, very highly rated players in program history. I think that is expecting a lot.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 15, 2018, 10:53:47 AM
A bit harsh to write the guys off before the end of their sophomore years...

Let me ask you goose, what was Jimmy butler each year in your eyes?

Sophomore Jimmy Butler was when the name Jimmy F*ckin Butler was coined.  A buddy and I were sitting at Wilson's Bar in Madison watching the game.  He said "I don't know who this Jimmy F*ckin Butler is but he's pretty f*ckin good."  And JFB is pretty f*ckin good.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 10:53:29 AM
So, 4-7 against the top 9%, 16-6 against the other 91%.   All in how you choose to look at it.

It's pretty hard to argue they are anything above "average" for a major conference team.  7th out of 10 team conference, .500 in conference, rated 57th on Ken Pom.

That is an average, at best, major conference team.  Certainly not "good." 

Jimmy Butler was good enough in his sophomore year to play all 35 games. Averaged 19.6 minutes, 5.6 points and 3.9 rebounds a game. Didn't make a single three-pointer. Great contributor and role player. But nowhere near the stud he would become in the next two seasons.

I think Sam has plenty of upside. His rebounding should continue to improve as he gains in strength. And there's room for development in his post-up and mid-range game. I expect him to make at least one all Big East team in the next two seasons.

Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on March 15, 2018, 11:16:12 AM
It's pretty hard to argue they are anything above "average" for a major conference team.  7th out of 10 team conference, .500 in conference, rated 57th on Ken Pom.

That is an average, at best, major conference team.  Certainly not "good."

9-9 in the Big East with by far the youngest team.  Not great.  But not bad, considering context.

And a single game out of 3rd place. Maybe an average team at best in the Big East right now, but not far from the Top 3 if we can improve a game or two.

Marcus

Butler played on a senior led team, that was top 15 in the country his first year at MU. Of course we only saw glimpses of the end product. Sam is played on a young, average team. If you think Sam has and will show similar upside that Butler did, we show retire his number today.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
Tower

I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

Sam and Howard I absolutely see competing for first team All Big East.

Jamal I think has the potential but need to see him put it all together first. Would likely say that honorable mention is his ceiling.

Greg I don't, though if there was a Big East All Defensive team I could see him making that.

Theo no, but I think he can be a more serviceable big than many of the bigs that we have had on tournament teams.

Sacar no, but I could see him a good role player on a very good team.

Harry is just a no at this point.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:59:22 AM
Boxer

Hardly writing either guy off. They both will go down as very highly rated players in program history, simply by stats. If they have on court success, they will even be more highly rated.

As for Butler, he passed the eye test the first time I saw him play. That said, I would not have expected the ultimate end product being as good it was/is.

We have seen Howard and Sam play over sixty games and that is a pretty good sample size. To boot they have played at high level, making upside more difficult. If they end up showing great upside improvement over next two years, they likely would go down as very, very, very highly rated players in program history. I think that is expecting a lot.

And yet Jimmys ultimate end product in college turned out to be only Big East honorable mention. My only point is that you can't always say that we need some first team all big east players in order to have a real stud. Jimmy was highly efficient, clutch, and a defensive minded player but never amounted to that 1st team all BE "stud" if that's still the measure you're using.

Quote from: skianth16 on March 15, 2018, 09:41:44 AM
Does anyone know what the injury is that Greg's been dealing with? How limiting has it been? Is it more the actual injury that is likely affecting his play, or the brace he has to wear?

I've seen it referred to as a "sprain," but if they're talking surgery, it's probably a torn tendon or ligament. As long it holds the thumb securely in place, the brace is probably the main issue.

Boxer

I sure as hell hope that Sam has similar rooster around him in two years. If he does, he can skip shooting for all BE honors and focus on being at E8 or better that season.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 11:26:37 AMMarcus

Butler played on a senior led team, that was top 15 in the country his first year at MU. Of course we only saw glimpses of the end product. Sam is played on a young, average team. If you think Sam has and will show similar upside that Butler did, we show retire his number today.

Buzz Williams wasn't even initially convinced about Jimmy Butler. Buzz was focused on Joe Fulce, Jimmy's teammate at Tyler junior college. Joe said he wouldn't commit to MU unless Buzz offered Jimmy, as well.

I watched every game of Jimmy's career at Marquette. I saw a lot of potential his first year: the hustle, the rebounding, the toughness, the smart play. But he was content with his role, deferred to his teammates and almost never looked for his shot. He certainly wasn't the fearless "give me the ball and I'll rip their guts out" player who gave us so many exciting moments. Stepping up as a leader is improvement.

Not saying Sam will be as good as Jimmy. But he's highly skilled, smart, and perhaps most importantly, a true competitor who's always looking to improve. I think that mindset might be the single most important ingredient for future development.

Marcus

You forget to mention Sam's a good student. All you said is great and I hope you are right.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 11:44:00 AM
Boxer

I sure as hell hope that Sam has similar rooster around him in two years. If he does, he can skip shooting for all BE honors and focus on being at E8 or better that season.

Like a high scoring gaurd who's great behind the arc, a bruiser of a PF? I think Morrow can match Jae 2011 and Markus can match DJO 2011.

Would take a Cadougan at this point.

Quote from: GrimmReaper33 on March 15, 2018, 11:16:12 AM
It's pretty hard to argue they are anything above "average" for a major conference team.  7th out of 10 team conference, .500 in conference, rated 57th on Ken Pom.

That is an average, at best, major conference team.  Certainly not "good."

Some people have different standards for what constitutes "good."  Personally, I agree with you.  A good team is Top 30 caliber.  Not, Top 60.  Granted, the difference is not much, as Tower points out.

In my view we should have been a 30ish team this year, given the crazy good season turned in by Rowsey and Sam.  IF our D had just been ranked 100, we'd be a Top 30 team.  And, yes, we were capable of being a 100th in the country type of defense.

People need to understand Rowsey for what he is... that is fools gold.  People look at losing 20 points a game and cannot imagine how he is replaced.  Now i understand he may not currently be on the roster, but in no way shape or form does Wojo need to find a 20 point a game scorer. 
Firstly, Andrew did not score 20 every game fir every 30 point game where he was big time for us he had absolute stinker games for us where he was exactly what we didnt need.  The at depaul and Harvard game are two perfect recent examples where our senior diasapeared, was in foul trouble, turned the ball over like a hot potato, took bad shots, and played horribale defense. 
His terrible defense also helped lead to dunks and layups by opposing players other than whom he was guarding, additionally his turnovers n matador defense led to foul issues n free throws.  I believe Rowsey needs to score 30 points a game and shoot well to be a positive for this team.  He scores 20, in the games like depaul n last night he was a tremendous burden to the team.  He had 14 points and 6 assits but no one felt he was a positive, like i said i think his number with all things included is about 30.  Even when hes not taking bad shots or turning it over his defense is soo bad the numbers is 30.
Therefore, Wojo doesnt need a 20 point a game scorer.  Someone who can come in and score 10+ a game, dribble with strength, run the offense and defensively chest bump and stay in front of the quality PGs that are in the BE and rebound his position will be a huge benefit to this team. 
I think a junior year Greg Elliott could do this but am not sure hes ready next year.
No way in hell can Howard do it.  We need a strong seasoned grad transfer or a top 75 type incoming Freshman, but i would be concerned with his youth.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 15, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Sam and Howard I absolutely see competing for first team All Big East.

Jamal I think has the potential but need to see him put it all together first. Would likely say that honorable mention is his ceiling.

Greg I don't, though if there was a Big East All Defensive team I could see him making that.

Theo no, but I think he can be a more serviceable big than many of the bigs that we have had on tournament teams.

Sacar no, but I could see him a good role player on a very good team.

Harry is just a no at this point.

Elliott and Anim both look like the type of quality role players who see big minutes on very good teams. I could see Cain being a better-shooting Jamil Wilson - i.e. more than a role player but not a #1 or 2 guy.

Theo is interesting. I think he's better than you give him credit for. His production will likely be largely related to whether or not the guards actually get him the ball. As the season progressed, he showed better touch around the basket and even broke out a baby hook a few times. He moves well and finds open space, but needs a PG who can find him. I see him projecting as somewhere between Daniel Ochefu and Robert Jackson (with Angel Delgado as the pipe dream).

A Theo-type player on the Amigos' teams would have made a hell of a difference.     

Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on March 15, 2018, 12:06:43 PM
People need to understand Rowsey for what he is... that is fools gold.  People look at losing 20 points a game and cannot imagine how he is replaced.  Now i understand he may not currently be on the roster, but in no way shape or form does Wojo need to find a 20 point a game scorer. 
Firstly, Andrew did not score 20 every game fir every 30 point game where he was big time for us he had absolute stinker games for us where he was exactly what we didnt need.  The at depaul and Harvard game are two perfect recent examples where our senior diasapeared, was in foul trouble, turned the ball over like a hot potato, took bad shots, and played horribale defense. 
His terrible defense also helped lead to dunks and layups by opposing players other than whom he was guarding, additionally his turnovers n matador defense led to foul issues n free throws.  I believe Rowsey needs to score 30 points a game and shoot well to be a positive for this team.  He scores 20, in the games like depaul n last night he was a tremendous burden to the team.  He had 14 points and 6 assits but no one felt he was a positive, like i said i think his number with all things included is about 30.  Even when hes not taking bad shots or turning it over his defense is soo bad the numbers is 30.
Therefore, Wojo doesnt need a 20 point a game scorer.  Someone who can come in and score 10+ a game, dribble with strength, run the offense and defensively chest bump and stay in front of the quality PGs that are in the BE and rebound his position will be a huge benefit to this team. 
I think a junior year Greg Elliott could do this but am not sure hes ready next year.
No way in hell can Howard do it.  We need a strong seasoned grad transfer or a top 75 type incoming Freshman, but i would be concerned with his youth.

Your wrong dim knit.  Did you watch this team at all when Rowsey wasn't on the floor this year?  Leads the SOTG tally with 8.  Put up the best value add season at MU this century, 2nd only to D-Wade.

Yes, a physical, strong, solid PG that can score some and defend at a high level (like a Traci Carter), will help next year - but - to dismiss the loss of Rowsey is silly.

We all know you hated Luke.  You love Heldt.  Hate Rowsey.  Largely hate on Markus.  What other MU players do you actually like?

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 15, 2018, 12:41:47 PM
Your wrong dim knit.  Did you watch this team at all when Rowsey wasn't on the floor this year?  Leads the SOTG tally with 8.  Put up the best value add season at MU this century, 2nd only to D-Wade.

Yes, a physical, strong, solid PG that can score some and defend at a high level (like a Traci Carter), will help next year - but - to dismiss the loss of Rowsey is silly.

We all know you hated Luke.  You love Heldt.  Hate Rowsey.  Largely hate on Markus.  What other MU players do you actually like?

John Dawson

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 15, 2018, 12:33:45 PM
Theo is interesting. I think he's better than you give him credit for. His production will likely be largely related to whether or not the guards actually get him the ball. As the season progressed, he showed better touch around the basket and even broke out a baby hook a few times. He moves well and finds open space, but needs a PG who can find him. I see him projecting as somewhere between Daniel Ochefu and Robert Jackson (with Angel Delgado as the pipe dream).

I think Theo has the chance to be really special.  His size and physicality is unbelievable for a freshman.  He is still raw, but I think he could be an absolute monster in the post with time.  I am very excited for his future, though admit its not guarantee he ever achieves his collegiate ceiling.  But he is a guy I'd be willing to bet that will leave no stone unturned in his work ethic to get there. 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 15, 2018, 11:31:57 AM
And yet Jimmys ultimate end product in college turned out to be only Big East honorable mention. My only point is that you can't always say that we need some first team all big east players in order to have a real stud. Jimmy was highly efficient, clutch, and a defensive minded player but never amounted to that 1st team all BE "stud" if that's still the measure you're using.

This is such a great point, BB. Nicely done. Using 20/20 hindsight as our guide, plus his surprising NBA stardom, I think some of us are a little guilty of over-stud-ifying Jimmy when he was here. I say that and I LOVED Jimmy.

Lots of other really good points in this thread.

If we get a decent PG - I agree that a Cadougan or Carter type would help us, but would love better - I see no reason Markus can't do even better next season. For example, he shot much better from 3 as a freshman; what if he shoots closer to that pct next year while still doing all the other stuff he does on offense?

Sam, I completely disagree with those who think he's hit his ceiling. A LOT of room for improvement there, including aggressiveness, midrange shooting, rebounding, defense.

A few of these other guys have barely scratched the surface, especially Cain and Theo. They can be valuable contributors to a top-20 team. Add Morrow and Joey. And add another year of experience for all returners.

We're gonna kick some m-f-in' booty next season!

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:14:55 AM
newsdreams

You obviously do not read my posts. If you truly believe that, you are off your rocker. Just because I do not agree with everyone here does not equate to my not wanting to see success. Actually, my bar for success might be higher than many on here.

wadesworld

Of course you do not need first team BE players to play at high level. That said, if you do not have that, you need everything to fall into place, role players to play their role everyday and outstanding coaching. For me, I think having some studs helps stack the deck in your favor. Again, that is my take.

Wrong, I read all your posts. Just that you complain over the same issues. Look at this thread. No development, no studs. You don't see it fine but don't say the same thing over and over. If you can't see the talent on this years class so be it. But these were 3 star kids. They have developed much faster than I expected. I see that they can have a lot of potential and guys coming in are going to have to fight for their minutes. Theo is raw but I see the improvement, less moving screens, his offense developing hook shot. I can see Cain become a "stud".
Seriously this 1st BE team or whatever 1st team no matta. To me is sort of like a beauty pageant contest, I mean no Sam mention? Give me a break! Guess what, Sam in a way is our game changer look at what happens when he is not on the floor our team usually goes of the rails. Last nights game Sam was having a terrible game and in foul trouble and how did we look? Sam has a lot of upside still, I can see his post game improving a lot and so his turnaround jumper. Markus will improve, I'm sure he will work a lot on his handles during the off season, he is smart and knows he needs it. I've seen some improvement on his D don't know if last night becomes the norm but he was positioning himself nicely and taking charges.
Am I satisfied with the results so far? No, but I don't feel we are in a terrible position either. I see what is being put together for long term success and the next two years will show. I expect at least top 4 BE next year even w/o a new PG and easily into NCAA field. What round I expect we reach? Don't know because you never know the path you are given by committee.
So here Goose

Quote from: skianth16 on March 15, 2018, 10:22:28 AM
Beware the intelligencia. Remember the SNL beygency skit? Where people come for you if you have anything less than complimentary of Beyonce? It's kinda like that around here most of the time too.

(http://78.media.tumblr.com/5b948299283b933d8da4d238d2cbe467/tumblr_n51bf4c3u31t1631yo6_250.gif)

Wrong, but to read basically the same complains over and over. What is the point?

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 15, 2018, 12:43:27 PM
John Dawson

Dude - You really shouldn't waste your time here. Hone your craft at that stand up comedy gig you'd clearly excel at.  Damn near spit out my coffee I laughed so hard.

Yea, I'm not getting the Sam hate. (I don't actually think it's hate, people here just really seem to undervalue him)

Look how broken Marquette was yesterday without him on the floor. He's far and away Marquette's most important player and he has been option number 3 on offense this year.

With Rowsey graduating and Morrow and Joey coming in, he's going to get a lot touches and mismatches on offense next year. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he is All BE second team next year and his NBA prospects are better than anyone on the current roster.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 15, 2018, 12:04:51 PM
Some people have different standards for what constitutes "good."  Personally, I agree with you.  A good team is Top 30 caliber.  Not, Top 60.  Granted, the difference is not much, as Tower points out.

In my view we should have been a 30ish team this year, given the crazy good season turned in by Rowsey and Sam.  IF our D had just been ranked 100, we'd be a Top 30 team. And, yes, we were capable of being a 100th in the country type of defense.

How?

That thread from a few weeks ago showed MU WAS a top 100 defense when only one liliputian guard was on the floor.    The problem from a coaching perspective was how to take a 20 pt scorer off the floor and replace him with a offensively challenged freshman for big minutes.     Cain and Elliott were usually (sometimes they played like freshman) clear upgrades defensively.      Wojo didn't pull that trigger, choosing offense.   

Which is another reason I am optimistic about next year.   A lot easier to hide 1 tiny guard than 2 tiny guards. 

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 15, 2018, 01:00:13 PM
Dude - You really shouldn't waste your time here. Hone your craft at that stand up comedy gig you'd clearly excel at.  Damn near spit out my coffee I laughed so hard.

That was kinda the intent, I'm on your side for this one.

Apparently teal isn't working on my phone

News dreams

I have said Wojo does not develop talent in this thread or other threads? With all due respect, I think you know zero about basketball. Keep crossing your fingers, hoping and saying next year is the year.

By just about any measure, Trae Young is a "stud." He led the freakin' nation in scoring and assists and will be a 1-and-done lottery pick.

Lon Kruger has won at every college stop, with multiple conference championships, two Final Fours. Damn good coach.

And yet Oklahoma had an epic collapse this season and was 1-and-done in the tournament.

Winning is difficult. We're close.

Quote from: MU82 on March 15, 2018, 02:12:38 PM
By just about any measure, Trae Young is a "stud." He led the freakin' nation in scoring and assists and will be a 1-and-done lottery pick.

Lon Kruger has won at every college stop, with multiple conference championships, two Final Fours. Damn good coach.

And yet Oklahoma had an epic collapse this season and was 1-and-done in the tournament.

Winning is difficult. We're close.

I think Kruger is great but if we had a coach for 22years and he got us 2 sweet 16s, 1 E8, and 2 FF people would still complain that we aren't consistently making the second weekend and how he just got lucky a couple times

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on March 15, 2018, 02:17:47 PM
I think Kruger is great but if we had a coach for 22years and he got us 2 sweet 16s, 1 E8, and 2 FF people would still complain that we aren't consistently making the second weekend and how he just got lucky a couple times

Also known as a slightly better record than Crean.    And Pitt and UGA are fighting over him. 

Kruger has been something of a turnaround specialist.

K-State was 12-16, 14-15, 14-14 and 16-14 their last 4 years under Jack Hartman. Kruger took over and got them into 4 straight NCAAs before leaving for Florida.

Florida was a real dumpster fire before he got there, going 7-21 the previous season.  It took Kruger 4 years to get them into the NCAAs, and they got to the Final Four that season. After another NCAA bid season and then a bad one, he left for Illinois, which had gone 5 straight years without winning 20 under Lou Henson (there also were NCAA rules problems there).

Kruger immediately got Illinois into the NCAAs, and went to the tourney 3 times in 4 years, also winning a conference title.

Kruger surprisingly was courted by the NBA, where he flamed out spectacularly with the Hawks.

Returned to college at UNLV, where Rebels had gone 4 straight years with no NCAAs. It took Kruger 3 years to get them back into the tourney; they went 4 of his last 5 years there.

Finally, he went to Oklahoma, where the program had bottomed out under Jeff Capel. After a losing first season, he has taken the Sooners to the tourney 5 of 6 years, and reached the 2015 Final Four.

He doesn't get "extra points" for all that moving around, but he has succeeded everywhere. Some places took longer for him to turn around than others. He has recruited well everywhere.

But as BB said, maybe Scoopers wouldn't be happy with "only" 2 FF in that time. Some of us would have been all over Al at times, too - especially late in the 1976-77 season.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
News dreams

I have said Wojo does not develop talent in this thread or other threads? With all due respect, I think you know zero about basketball. Keep crossing your fingers, hoping and saying next year is the year.

Coming from you, thanks. I can't dunk I'll give you that.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 01:37:35 PM
News dreams

I have said Wojo does not develop talent in this thread or other threads? With all due respect, I think you know zero about basketball. Keep crossing your fingers, hoping and saying next year is the year.

You said you can't see the talent and that basically Markus and Sam are at their ceiling. Both are inaccurate that is what I was getting at. And next year needs to be marked improvement from the team else Wojo will not have delivered on his plan.

I graduated from Marquette during the Kevin O'Neill era.

He was obviously a very different coach than Wojo. O'Neill, for example, would absolutely lose his mind to see defense like what we've witnessed the past two seasons. Yet the approach to team-building seems similar: establish a strong core of young talent and develop them for several years.

Results sure weren't easy to see at the beginning. In O'Neill's second second, his nationally ranked recruiting class of Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logterman struggled through an 11-18 season. A year later, the addition of Tony Miller and William Gates added leadership and depth in the backcourt. But they still finished just 16-13 with no postseason.

Big deal, right? Roney Eford was the only impact addition the following year. No reason to expect much improvement. But the team finished 20-8 and earned Marquette's first NCAA tournament bid in a decade. A year later, the same team beat Kentucky to advance to the Sweet 16.

Damon Key finished his MU career with more than 1,600 career points. McIlvaine smashed every record for blocked shots, earned national defensive player of the year honors and went on to play 7 years in the NBA. Tony Miller set a new standard for assists, before playing overseas for more than a dozen years. Logterman established a new mark for 3-pointers made. Eford totaled nearly 1,500 points by the time he graduated.

Clearly, some high-level talent. Nowhere near enough to compete for a national title, but easily a Top 25 program. Unfortunately, O'Neil left for Tennessee after just 5 seasons. And his successor Mike Deane wasn't able to attract the same level of talent.

I don't know how much more Sam, Markus or anyone else currently on the roster can develop. But they're already rewriting the school record books. You could even make an argument that Sam/Markus/Sacar/Greg/Jamal/Theo are further along than Mac/Damon/Robb/Tony/Gates were in 1991-92. (In a far tougher conference than the Great Midwest, no less.) If this team is on a similar trajectory, that would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Making the NIT is a means to an end. Not an end in itself. But as long as we're still playing in March, might as well enjoy the games we have to watch.

Newsdreams

Stat wise they have played at level no one aside from Wade has played at their first two years. How to do you figure there is much upside? If they play at the same level it would be historic careers. Like my posts or not, but I try and think things out and use logic vs. tooth fairy dreaming.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 03:18:14 PM
Newsdreams

Stat wise they have played at level no one aside from Wade has played at their first two years. How to do you figure there is much upside? If they play at the same level it would be historic careers. Like my posts or not, but I try and think things out and use logic vs. tooth fairy dreaming.

I guess I could see it a bit with Markus.  I happen to not think we've seen his ceiling, but that is at least an argument I could see.  He's a fantastic shooter, but didn't shoot it all that great this season from 3P, but his floater is lethal and I think we'll see him improve at finishing in traffic.  Defensively I don't think he'll ever be great, but he has the ability to be decent when his backcourt mate has more size.

But Sam? For starters, the guy has been hurt for at least a month.  I think we'll see him be much quicker and with a fresh step next season. He's never been overly aggressive offensively, which I think is something we'll see more of.  Next season I suspect we'll see him playing more on the wing and less in the post, which will give him nice mismatches on the offensively end, especially when he backs his player down into the paint.  We know the kid can really shoot it.  I think Sam could be All American good next couple seasons.  At the very least, we already have a 2nd team type performer. He is a really, really good ball player.

It's possible that Markus becomes more valuable to the team by scoring less. If he can become more of a distributor and improve on defense.

Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on March 15, 2018, 03:25:18 PM
I guess I could see it a bit with Markus.  I happen to not think we've seen his ceiling, but that is at least an argument I could see.  He's a fantastic shooter, but didn't shoot it all that great this season from 3P, but his floater is lethal and I think we'll see him improve at finishing in traffic.  Defensively I don't think he'll ever be great, but he has the ability to be decent when his backcourt mate has more size.

But Sam? For starters, the guy has been hurt for at least a month.  I think we'll see him be much quicker and with a fresh step next season. He's never been overly aggressive offensively, which I think is something we'll see more of.  Next season I suspect we'll see him playing more on the wing and less in the post, which will give him nice mismatches on the offensively end, especially when he backs his player down into the paint.  We know the kid can really shoot it.  I think Sam could be All American good next couple seasons.  At the very least, we already have a 2nd team type performer. He is a really, really good ball player.

Correct and Sam will be posting 3's and will kill them. Playing the 3 will take a lot of pressure away from him. And correct on Markus some people think improvement is only scoring........

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 03:18:14 PM
Newsdreams

Stat wise they have played at level no one aside from Wade has played at their first two years. How to do you figure there is much upside? If they play at the same level it would be historic careers. Like my posts or not, but I try and think things out and use logic vs. tooth fairy dreaming.

Logic? And thanks!

J5

Again, I am a big Sam guy. Please factor in how he benefited from two guys that could make shots from the parking lot. He is not going to have anywhere near the luxury next season. He has flat out outperformed expectations for this fan for two years. As a matter of fact, he might have outperformed at a level I have not seen in years. Tough to build off that, especially when limited athletically.

Count me in on the "high on Theo's potential" club. He's got the goods. Hope we get four years from him

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 03:40:07 PM
J5

Again, I am a big Sam guy. Please factor in how he benefited from two guys that could make shots from the parking lot. He is not going to have anywhere near the luxury next season. He has flat out outperformed expectations for this fan for two years. As a matter of fact, he might have outperformed at a level I have not seen in years. Tough to build off that, especially when limited athletically.

See, I see it as the opposite. I think Howard and Rowsey benefit more with Sam on the floor. We kind of saw that last night at the end of the Harvard game.

My prediction next season is Sam is on the All Big East second team.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 03:40:07 PM
J5

Again, I am a big Sam guy. Please factor in how he benefited from two guys that could make shots from the parking lot. He is not going to have anywhere near the luxury next season. He has flat out outperformed expectations for this fan for two years. As a matter of fact, he might have outperformed at a level I have not seen in years. Tough to build off that, especially when limited athletically.

There is merit to this point.  My only concern on Sam is the athletic part.  He will be an absolute focal point of defenses next year, and it is true that he benefitted from playing alongside both Markus and Rowsey.  The floor spacing was great, AND it made it difficult for opposition to double down on Sam when he posted up.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 15, 2018, 12:41:47 PM
Your wrong dim knit.  Did you watch this team at all when Rowsey wasn't on the floor this year?  Leads the SOTG tally with 8.  Put up the best value add season at MU this century, 2nd only to D-Wade.

Yes, a physical, strong, solid PG that can score some and defend at a high level (like a Traci Carter), will help next year - but - to dismiss the loss of Rowsey is silly.

We all know you hated Luke.  You love Heldt.  Hate Rowsey.  Largely hate on Markus.  What other MU players do you actually like?

Your problem n many others is u only focus on offense  Yes he got 8 sotg but because u n others tend to vote for the high scorer.  BE coaches left him off the BE teams despite being 5th? In the conference in scoring.  Dont hate on Markus as a 2, just calling out the obvious that he isnt a PG.  I like Andrew, he seems like a great kid.  I think he is the 8th best PG in the BE tho, id take him over Mintz n the Georgetown kid.  Its not all about scoring, put down the xbox contoller. 

News dreams

Instead of trying to one up me, which will not happen, try and think things out. How is Sam going to move upward in a significant way? Shoot higher % of threes? Become a PG? Increase rebounding with sacrificing scoring?

Thank God for Sam exceeding expectations and put legit expectations for him moving forward. Unless they add 15 minutes to the game, his stats might be a career highs.

Quote from: tower912 on March 15, 2018, 02:18:55 PM
Also known as a slightly better record than Crean.    And Pitt and UGA are fighting over him.

Slighty better than Crean?? Lol in what metric?? Additionally kruger has multiple rebuilds scewing his record.  Crean cannot hold krugers jock

Goose, I realize that statistically it will be difficult for Sam to improve.   How will he improve from having other skilled, mobile forwards on the floor?  What if his presence prevents the double team of Theo or Morrow in the post?  How much better will his defense be when he isn't spending 37 minutes wrestling  with a Big East PF?  What will his offense look like if Marquette gets a graduate transfer PG who can penetrate and pass?   Will he be better if he doesn't have to carry the front court scoring load?

Tower

Back to stud point, do you build a team around Sam or have Sam be part of the pieces around a stud?

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 03:57:35 PM
News dreams

Instead of trying to one up me, which will not happen, try and think things out. How is Sam going to move upward in a significant way? Shoot higher % of threes? Become a PG? Increase rebounding with sacrificing scoring?

Thank God for Sam exceeding expectations and put legit expectations for him moving forward. Unless they add 15 minutes to the game, his stats might be a career highs.

Increase his usage. I don't expect him to reach Rowsey levels of usage, but if Sam can maintain a 60+ eFG% while getting from 10 shots per game up to 14-15, his PPG could easily get close to 20.

The shots will be there with Rowsey gone. Sam did increase his usage and minutes this year while also improving his ORtg and eFG%.

And while it's easy to say he will be more the focal point of defenses without Rowsey, I'd argue that offensive options is the last thing Marquette should be worried about based on Wojo's history. The defense has always stepped back, but Carlino, Reinhardt, JJ, and Rowsey all stepped up to career best seasons as upperclassmen here. Getting offensive production out of his players is something Wojo has excelled at.

Brew

60% FG at 14-15 shots a game. Forget retiring his number, put him college HOF tonight. I obviously have bumped my fxxkin head too many times. I never thought just increasing a guys shots per game and expecting 60% success. Actually, what if he shots it  a hundred Fxxkin times a game? Even better, right?

Think you missed the "e" in Brew's "60+ eFG%." As in "effective field goal percentage," not pure field goal percentage.

Sam has actually improved his eFG% this season to 64.3% (compared to 62.7% a year ago) while increasing his usage by 33%. The kid hardly ever takes a bad shot, has great mechanics, and doesn't turn the ball over. Yes, his efficiency is incredible already. But it's possible he could get even better.

Marcus

Thank you for the correction. I did not read the post correctly. That said, if it were that easy, Brew would be a coach.

Ok, I broke my own promise not to post until the NIT run was over, but I could not resist with this thread. So, here goes:

1) Actually think we have the makings of a pretty good team next year that could surprise people. The core of a winner is there and can be built around (Marcus/Sam/Morrow/Elliott). Will we be a one-seed and a definitive favorite for a natchamp? No. Do we have the talent coming in, plus the returning talent to make difference and make the tournament? Absolutely. We should be a five to a seven seed next year, IMHO.

2) I may be seeing things through blue and gold glasses but I believe Wojo is growing too. I see a coach that while frustrated, is teaching and working with the team. Is he perfect, "No." Is he coaching a little better. Again, I can't point tangibly but I think inherently, yes. He's learning the Big East.

3) Our biggest problem is learning play collaboratively and as a team, rather than as individuals. It was pointed out in here that we would do better when Howard scores less and our points were better distributed. Nothing truer could be said. I like the Howard long threes. They are fun to watch. But until Matt Heldt has enough confidence in himself to take a ball and jam it down the rim rather than kicking it out, we're going no where. Classic point: Michael Jordan had some of his best scoring games very early in his career (including a 63 point effort against the Celtics) when the Bulls sucked. Jordan used to remind Larry Bird that he scored 63 against the Celtics in a playoff game. Bird would look at him and simply say, "Michael, who won the game?" Jordan would shut up. Morale: 20 points from Howard on a regular basis, with 50 to 60 more points distributed more evenly among the other four guys on the team probably gets us in the NCAA. Hero ball doesn't.

4) Yes, I watched the Harvard game and no I did not get emotionally involved in it the way I normally do a Marquette game. I saw defense all night. I saw tips, deflections steals and things that would make me sleep better were they to occur in a real game. Yeah, Harvard is a marginal mid-major, but we played defense. That was nine to see and it would be nice if we did that with the big boys, when it mattered.

5) Finally, I reiterate my point that I don't think Wojo is on the hot seat yet, but if we don't perform next year, he'll be feeling it! I think the tension is a good thing.

It's certainly not that easy.

While Markus increased his 2-point percentage from 45.4% to 53.4%, his 3-point percentage decline from 54.7% (still amazed at that number) to a still impressive 40.2%. That dropped his effective field goal percentage from 65.8% to 57.1%. Rowsey experienced a similar decrease.

Personally, I think Sam has a skillset unlike any we've seen at Marquette. He's as good a shooter as Steve Novak, maybe even better. He's the best-passing forward I can remember, averaging 2.8 assists a game (just behind Markus). He's a solid rebounder and defender. He doesn't turn the ball over. He's made big strides in his post-up and mid-range game this year. And while he's never going to be the most athletic player on the court, he makes up for it by playing so smart and not making mistakes.

Who would you compare him to? I'd take Sam over virtually any 3 or 4 in the Big East besides Mikal Bridges. Including Desi Rodriguez, Rodney Bullock, Isaiah Jackson, even Kelan Martin.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 04:15:42 PM
Brew

60% FG at 14-15 shots a game. Forget retiring his number, put him college HOF tonight. I obviously have bumped my fxxkin head too many times. I never thought just increasing a guys shots per game and expecting 60% success. Actually, what if he shots it  a hundred Fxxkin times a game? Even better, right?

Sometimes when I talk about stats with old school fans, I feel like we are talking two different languages. This is one of those times.

Goose, is it that unthinkable that Sam increase his attempts from 10/game to 14/game in the next two years? Especially when Rowsey took over 14 shots per game? I've heard many people complain about Sam not being assertive enough on offense. With Rowsey gone, that likely guarantees him more touches and opportunities. Honestly, that aspect is incredibly simple. You don't need to be a coach to figure that out.

Brew

I think there is little chance for Sam to be as effective if he hoisted 14-15 a game. Hence my saying, I think he is maxed out.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 05:09:04 PM
Brew

I think there is little chance for Sam to be as effective if he hoisted 14-15 a game. Hence my saying, I think he is maxed out.

He went from 6.4 shots as a freshman to 10.1 as a sophomore and increased his eFG% in the process. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to think he could increase his usage with a relatively minimal decline.

You asked how Sam would move upward in a significant way. If he was able to replicate his one year increase in usage again over a two year period with a minimal drop in efficiency, he would do that. As he already did that once, it's a reasonable expectation. That doesn't mean it will happen, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 05:09:04 PM
Brew

I think there is little chance for Sam to be as effective if he hoisted 14-15 a game. Hence my saying, I think he is maxed out.

I thought this last season. I warned people that Sam's eFG% would go down as he increase his usage. Instead, he hoisted 4 more shots a game and increased his eFG% from 62.6% to 64.3%.

Now that doesn't mean he will continue on that trajectory, I expect his eFG% will drop slightly next year as his usage raises. I am also hopeful that his defense and rebounding will improve next season if his hip surgery is successful.

TAMU

You know your stuff. Seriously, Sam has done an unreal job his first two years and big time hats off to him. Do you really think he has a lot of upside in the tank? For me, if he holds serve he has a helluva of a career.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 05:30:58 PM
TAMU

You know your stuff. Seriously, Sam has done an unreal job his first two years and big time hats off to him. Do you really think he has a lot of upside in the tank? For me, if he holds serve he has a helluva of a career.

I think he's close to his offensive potential. I think he's got more to give in other parts of his game. He's been dealing with this hip all season. I also think you and I differ in where we think Sam is right now. I think this season he was an All Big East 2nd Team snub. I get the sense that you think he was further away than that.

TAMU

Not sure if snub or not, but a very, very good year by Sam. I like him a lot.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:47:56 AM
wades

Again, this is were we differ in opinion. I believe Howard is very legit #2 guard and would play a lot of minutes at almost every program in the country. I expect him to have similar, not better, success his next seasons. Sam to me is an A++++ upper end role player. I hate using the word role player in regards to Sam, but I do not think he is someone that you would build a team around for the next two seasons. I expect him to play at similar level next two seasons. I think both have likely maxed out on their upside. For the record, I am big time fan of Sam's.

So, where are the studs? Are you counting on Joey being a sure fire stud, or one of the other newcomers? To me, Wojo is piecing together a very example of UW team/program and the Badgers have had great success. I have no problem with that model, if the coaching matches the Bo success. With this model, we better hope Wojo is more Bo than Gard.

In my mind Sam is unquestionably a stud.  By far our best player this year.  He does absolutely everything better than Markus on a basketball court other than being able to create a shot for himself.  Nearly 15 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 assists per game with just 1 turnover per game and I believe he is (or at least was late in the season) one of the 10 most efficient players in all of college basketball.  And, in my opinion, one of the two best defenders on the team (yes, when switched onto a very quick guard like Ponds his lack of lateral quickness can get exposed).

I think Markus is also a stud and will certainly improve greatly.  Sophomore year to junior year is usually a player's biggest jump, and Markus is also a very young sophomore.  A lot of room for improvement.

I am very confident Joey will be a stud as well.  And I have no idea if Bailey will end up being a stud, but I'll take my chances on a 6'8" wing with a father who played over a decade in the NBA.

What would MUs record been this year with kadeen carrington at PG??

Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on March 15, 2018, 05:52:57 PM
What would MUs record been this year with kadeen carrington at PG??

3-5 wins better

Next season could see quite a shift in the conference hierarchy. Nova should still be scary good. But Xavier loses its top 4 players according to Value Add. Seton Hall loses 4 of its top 5. Marquette, meanwhile, returns 8 of its top 9.

I think Xavier will surprise people next year.

Quote from: hagansworld on March 15, 2018, 06:19:49 PM
I think Xavier will surprise people next year.

X will be fine, but next year will not be as good as this year.  That's a lot to lose.

Lets not kid ourselves, Bridges and Brunson are going to be reaaaally hard to replace.

Quote from: hagansworld on March 15, 2018, 06:19:49 PM
I think Xavier will surprise people next year.

I think they'll be a lot like us this year. Talented but young. Someone will have to emerge, because while Jones, Gates, Marshall, Goodin, and Scruggs have shown to be starter caliber players, none have shown star qualities yet. My way too early guess would be middle of the league and 7-10 seed.

Quote from: Its DJOver on March 15, 2018, 06:05:58 PM
3-5 wins better

And yet we beat SH/Carrington twice, including one blowout.

We already are a decent to good team. We are close to being very good. We will be next season.

Several Scoopers love them some KO, and I don't blame them. And yet, he did not accomplish any more in his coaching career through 4 years than Wojo has. And then he left us.

We're gonna kick serious butt next season.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 10:47:56 AM
wades

Again, this is were we differ in opinion. I believe Howard is very legit #2 guard and would play a lot of minutes at almost every program in the country. I expect him to have similar, not better, success his next seasons. Sam to me is an A++++ upper end role player. I hate using the word role player in regards to Sam, but I do not think he is someone that you would build a team around for the next two seasons. I expect him to play at similar level next two seasons. I think both have likely maxed out on their upside. For the record, I am big time fan of Sam's.

So, where are the studs? Are you counting on Joey being a sure fire stud, or one of the other newcomers? To me, Wojo is piecing together a very example of UW team/program and the Badgers have had great success. I have no problem with that model, if the coaching matches the Bo success. With this model, we better hope Wojo is more Bo than Gard.

I think Sam and Markus both have upside from here.

Sam can improve his lateral quickness, jumping, strength and post game. If he can learn to create for himself his ceiling is going to be First team all Big East level. Sam is already top 50 all time at MU and could end up Top 35 by the time he is finished if he can reach his ceiling. Sam is a player who always plays within the flow and lets the game come to him, which is incredibly valuable and a very under rated skill.

Markus has additional upside as well, in the areas of his ball handling and defense and distribution.  Markus is already top 40 all time at MU and could end up top 25 by the time he finishes if he can reach his ceiling.

Stats for both my not necessarily be higher as there is other solid talent on the team, that will have their share of success as well.

Quote from: Herman Cain on March 15, 2018, 07:10:04 PM
I think Sam and Markus both have upside from here.

Sam can improve his lateral quickness, jumping, strength and post game. If he can learn to create for himself his ceiling is going to be First team all Big East level. Sam is already top 50 all time at MU and could end up Top 35 by the time he is finished if he can reach his ceiling. Sam is a player who always plays within the flow and lets the game come to him, which is incredibly valuable and a very under rated skill.

Markus has additional upside as well, in the areas of his ball handling and defense and distribution.  Markus is already top 40 all time at MU and could end up top 25 by the time he finishes if he can reach his ceiling.

Stats for both my not necessarily be higher as there is other solid talent on the team, that will have their share of success as well.

We agree, 9-9-9.

Quote from: MU82 on March 15, 2018, 07:07:53 PMSeveral Scoopers love them some KO, and I don't blame them. And yet, he did not accomplish any more in his coaching career through 4 years than Wojo has. And then he left us.

All true. This could point to the biggest difference between O'Neill and Wojo. O'Neill's departure was the first in a wandering journey of coaching jobs with at least 7 different organizations over the next 20 years. Wojo, on the other hand, stayed on Coach K's staff for 16 years. If he can build the program he wants here, he may be in no hurry to leave anytime soon.

MU82

Huh? I must of last a few years of memory.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 07:25:53 PM
MU82

Huh? I must of last a few years of memory.

I meant he left after his fifth season. The Miller Game vs. Kentucky opened the door for KO, who was looking to jump ship at the first available opportunity. He was the first to regard MU as a stepping-stone job.

Like you, Goose, I know and like KO. And I appreciate what he did. But 4 years in, he produced one NCAA tournament appearance. We have debated before who had the more difficult task coming in, and I don't want to get into it again. But facts are facts. Four years, one NCAA tournament game defeat.

Let's see if Wojo's fifth year can be as successful - or even moreso - than KO's. I hope you're rooting for it. I sure as hell am.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 03:57:35 PM
News dreams

Instead of trying to one up me, which will not happen, try and think things out. How is Sam going to move upward in a significant way? Shoot higher % of threes? Become a PG? Increase rebounding with sacrificing scoring?

Thank God for Sam exceeding expectations and put legit expectations for him moving forward. Unless they add 15 minutes to the game, his stats might be a career highs.

Never tried to one up you. But I'm not going to try to resort to minimize you as you try by saying I have zero knowledge, tooth fairy..... I think I did explain myself and I see a bunch of people answered your question here.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 15, 2018, 04:55:44 PM

Personally, I think Sam has a skillset unlike any we've seen at Marquette. He's as good a shooter as Steve Novak, maybe even better. He's the best-passing forward I can remember, averaging 2.8 assists a game (just behind Markus). He's a solid rebounder and defender. He doesn't turn the ball over. He's made big strides in his post-up and mid-range game this year. And while he's never going to be the most athletic player on the court, he makes up for it by playing so smart and not making mistakes.

This post is funny, because I've been thinking the same thing for a month now, but thought I was maybe the only one who thought Hauser is maybe the most unique MU player I've seen. In my opinion, he's far and away the most valuable player on this year's squad. From an eye test standpoint, he's the most efficient MU player I've seen. When MU started putting him just outside the post and running the offense through him there, I thought it was the best MU's offense looked all season. He creates match up problems, draws in defense, and he can pass. If anything, I'd like to see Hauser continue to work on his footwork and post play.

I'd also shut him down now, I'm completely comfortable with whatever MU's fate is in the NIT, I'd rather see Hauser healthy for the summer.

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 05:09:04 PM
Brew

I think there is little chance for Sam to be as effective if he hoisted 14-15 a game. Hence my saying, I think he is maxed out.

Disagree, he will be option A or B next year, and should get 15 to 18 shots per game.  That alone will increase his productivity.

Quote from: MUDish-Hagans Come On Down on March 15, 2018, 09:38:13 PM
This post is funny, because I've been thinking the same thing for a month now, but thought I was maybe the only one who thought Hauser is maybe the most unique MU player I've seen. In my opinion, he's far and away the most valuable player on this year's squad. From an eye test standpoint, he's the most efficient MU player I've seen. When MU started putting him just outside the post and running the offense through him there, I thought it was the best MU's offense looked all season. He creates match up problems, draws in defense, and he can pass. If anything, I'd like to see Hauser continue to work on his footwork and post play.

I'd also shut him down now, I'm completely comfortable with whatever MU's fate is in the NIT, I'd rather see Hauser healthy for the summer.

Yeah I agree with this also. I get frustrated with people who say he is too slow and get his own shot. That is BS.   I don't think he is a better shooter than Novak though. Still he is only a soph

Quote from: Goose on March 15, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
Tower

I also see skinny, young talent, just not the level of talent many feel is there. The young guys are fine, but not much above fine IMO. They have played over thirty games and I have not seen major strides for the most part. Just curious, of the three young guys, does anyone feel they will be first team BE in three years? Howard had a big time scoring year and was second team, I believe.

I could see Cain becoming all Big East.
I feel many fans confuse future potential with current talent. Elliott and Cain have a lot of future talent, but they would not of played much on Villanova or Xavier this year. John is already physically strong, so I do not see him the upside of Cain and Elliott.

Quote from: MUDish-Hagans Come On Down on March 15, 2018, 09:38:13 PM
This post is funny, because I've been thinking the same thing for a month now, but thought I was maybe the only one who thought Hauser is maybe the most unique MU player I've seen. In my opinion, he's far and away the most valuable player on this year's squad. From an eye test standpoint, he's the most efficient MU player I've seen. When MU started putting him just outside the post and running the offense through him there, I thought it was the best MU's offense looked all season. He creates match up problems, draws in defense, and he can pass. If anything, I'd like to see Hauser continue to work on his footwork and post play.

I'd also shut him down now, I'm completely comfortable with whatever MU's fate is in the NIT, I'd rather see Hauser healthy for the summer.

True like I said I feel he is our game changer. I think 3 coaches mentioned key was to stop Sam. On shutting him down I'm sure doctors have been consulted and they must have said it makes no difference, I'm sure Wojo is not going to risk Sam.

Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2018, 09:51:37 PM
I could see Cain becoming all Big East.
I feel many fans confuse future potential with current talent. Elliott and Cain have a lot of future talent, but they would not of played much on Villanova or Xavier this year. John is already physically strong, so I do not see him the upside of Cain and Elliott.

Agreed.  Cain shot 57% from 3 in BE play.  He has out of this world athletic ability.  He needs strength and to tighten his handle to be at the all BE/NBA talent type level.

Both of those are doable.  The question is whether he is able to put it all together.   

Quote from: forgetful on March 15, 2018, 09:59:01 PM
Agreed.  Cain shot 57% from 3 in BE play.  He has out of this world athletic ability.  He needs strength and to tighten his handle to be at the all BE/NBA talent type level.

Both of those are doable.  The question is whether he is able to put it all together.   

Do you think Cain is a shooter? Or was this just luck/small sample size?

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 15, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
Do you think Cain is a shooter? Or was this just luck/small sample size?

Tough to say.  He came into MU with the reputation of a shooter.  Is he a 57% shooter, no.  That is reserved for the M2N's and Hausers of the world.  The 57% is due to sample size/luck, but I'd bet on him being a 40-44% shooter, which is still excellent. 

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 15, 2018, 10:00:41 PMDo you think Cain is a shooter? Or was this just luck/small sample size?

I don't think it's just luck. Will he hit 50% from here on? Maybe not. Early on I thought he had kind of a slow wind up and release. But he knows how to pick his spots on the catch-and-shoot. Corner threes seem to be his favorite. His length probably doesn't hurt, either, in being able to elevate over a defender who's closing out.

Quote from: hairy worthen on March 15, 2018, 09:51:22 PM
Yeah I agree with this also. I get frustrated with people who say he is too slow and get his own shot. That is BS.   I don't think he is a better shooter than Novak though. Still he is only a soph

I agree, I don't think he's a better shooter than Novak, but I think he is or is going to be a better overall basketball player than Novak. That's a compliment to both those guys.

So general consensus with Sam is everybody except for one person thinks he has a lot more to offer in a Marquette uniform.

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 15, 2018, 10:18:19 PM
So general consensus with Sam is everybody except for one person thinks he has a lot more to offer in a Marquette uniform.

If it matters at all, it's the same "one person" who doesn't believe Cain is a shooter

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on March 15, 2018, 10:18:19 PM
So general consensus with Sam is everybody except for one person thinks he has a lot more to offer in a Marquette uniform.

And all but that one person are delusional.

Quote from: jesmu84 on March 15, 2018, 10:21:32 PM
If it matters at all, it's the same "one person" who doesn't believe Cain is a shooter

Now I understand where your question came from.  I was a bit confused by it, honestly couldn't believe that anyone would not think Cain is a "shooter".

Quote from: MUDish-Hagans Come On Down on March 15, 2018, 10:15:19 PM
I agree, I don't think he's a better shooter than Novak, but I think he is or is going to be a better overall basketball player than Novak. That's a compliment to both those guys.

So far in his career, Sam has been a better shooter than Novak was, both from 2 and from 3.

And the frosh/soph Sam has been a significantly better player than the frosh/soph/jr Novak was.

Quote from: bilsu on March 15, 2018, 09:51:37 PM
I could see Cain becoming all Big East.
I feel many fans confuse future potential with current talent. Elliott and Cain have a lot of future talent, but they would not of played much on Villanova or Xavier this year. John is already physically strong, so I do not see him the upside of Cain and Elliott.

I see a lot of potential for Cain as well. He can certainly use more strength but I think the big thing for him is improving the mental part of the game. Game just goes too fast for him sometimes IMHO. If he stops the unforced travels, dropping the ball on rebounds, and playing a little smarter on the ball defense, he could be really really good. Could be why he struggles with FTs as well. The mental stuff can sometimes be harder to develop then the the physical.

Quote from: MU82 on March 15, 2018, 11:24:50 PM
So far in his career, Sam has been a better shooter than Novak was, both from 2 and from 3.

Advanced stats would like to have a quick chat with you...

MU basketball discussions are like are arguing religion and politics. No point since everyone has already decided on their positions.

Quote from: Class71 on March 16, 2018, 06:26:39 AM
MU basketball discussions are like are arguing religion and politics. No point since everyone has already decided on their positions.

This thread sure reads this way.  One of the worst threads in a while. 

Quote from: real chili 83 on March 16, 2018, 06:30:01 AM
This thread sure reads this way.  One of the worst threads in a while.

You're saying mean stuff about my kid. ;)

It is interesting.  I was trying to say that there is a different way to look at this season, that the season wasn't a complete disaster.

Sorry for my part in derailing the thread. Had a bad hair day yesterday. I will play better with others today. Again, I did not mean to come across aggressively in my posts, but understand how it came across that way. Hope all  will give Goose a second chance.

Quote from: Goose on March 16, 2018, 08:02:57 AM
Sorry for my part in derailing the thread. Had a bad hair day yesterday. I will play better with others today. Again, I did not mean to come across aggressively in my posts, but understand how it came across that way. Hope all  will give Goose a second chance.

You raised some interesting points yesterday Goose. Some were off the mark in the eyes of most. We all miss the mark at times.  But, you raised some valid points too.

Takes a man to make your above post.  The loudest on this board, myself included, can all learn a lesson in humility from your above post.  Hope today and the weekend are better days.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 15, 2018, 10:11:17 PM
I don't think it's just luck. Will he hit 50% from here on? Maybe not. Early on I thought he had kind of a slow wind up and release. But he knows how to pick his spots on the catch-and-shoot. Corner threes seem to be his favorite. His length probably doesn't hurt, either, in being able to elevate over a defender who's closing out.

Cain actually reminds me a lot of Bridges.  Ideally he could have had the same path as Bridges and redshirted his freshman year to put on some more muscle.  I think at similar stages in their career Cain is a better outside shooter and Bridges was better at creating off the dribble.  I am not saying Cain will be as good as Bridges but he has the physical tools to get there.  I think once he adds strength and gains more confidence (stops thinking and just plays) we will see great things from Cain.

Quote from: MUDish-Hagans Come On Down on March 16, 2018, 12:17:29 AM
Advanced stats would like to have a quick chat with you...

Cool. Educate me.

Sam shot .480 from 3 and .514 from 2 in his 2 seasons at Marquette compared to Novak's .456 and .383.

Plus Sam had a better eFG% as a sophomore than Novak did. Roughly the same eFG% over 2 years.

I do like to learn, so I'll be interested in "proof" that Novak was a better shooter.

And I'm REALLY interested in learning how a sophomore Novak was anywhere close to being as good a player as the sophomore Sam.

MU82

IMO, Sam is heads and shoulders a better player than Novak based on first two years performance. I do not think it is even close. That said, I believe Novak was hands down the greatest shooter in MU history and by a fairly wide margin.

Quote from: MUDish-Hagans Come On Down on March 15, 2018, 09:38:13 PM
This post is funny, because I've been thinking the same thing for a month now, but thought I was maybe the only one who thought Hauser is maybe the most unique MU player I've seen. In my opinion, he's far and away the most valuable player on this year's squad. From an eye test standpoint, he's the most efficient MU player I've seen. When MU started putting him just outside the post and running the offense through him there, I thought it was the best MU's offense looked all season. He creates match up problems, draws in defense, and he can pass. If anything, I'd like to see Hauser continue to work on his footwork and post play.

I'd also shut him down now, I'm completely comfortable with whatever MU's fate is in the NIT, I'd rather see Hauser healthy for the summer.

There was a good reason that Sam lead the team in minutes as a freshman on a team with three senior starters.

Quote from: MU82 on March 15, 2018, 07:07:53 PM
Several Scoopers love them some KO, and I don't blame them. And yet, he did not accomplish any more in his coaching career through 4 years than Wojo has. And then he left us.

Not to nitpick, but KO made back to back NCAA Tournaments, which included a run to the S16.  Which Marquette hadn't seen in 10+ years.

I like Wojo, I see the foundation, just need to give him a little time to put it all together.

Quote from: Class71 on March 16, 2018, 06:26:39 AMMU basketball discussions are like are arguing religion and politics.

This is true of sports in general. I don't know for a fact what Sam or the team will look like next year. Nobody else does, either. Even coaches and scouts can disagree on who's the best player or what's the right in-game strategy. The only certainty is the final score.

As a fan of college basketball, I come here to share what I observe and read what others think. It's not that hard to assess the very best players and teams. Where Marquette stands right now is murkier. The results on the court say we're a mediocre team. Can we do better with most of this roster returning? If so, how much better? I'm interested in different perspectives. And I don't think throwing around terms like "idiotic" or "delusional" add anything worthwhile.

Players like Markus and Sam can be unusually difficult to evaluate. They aren't going to blow anyone away with their size, athleticism or quickness. But that's not always required for success in college basketball, if you have the right combination of skills (shooting being a pretty important one) and approach to the game.

Take Davante Gardner, for instance. One of the least athletic players to ever wear a Marquette uniform, but an offensive scoring and rebounding force nonetheless. Knew how to establish position, great hands, impressive shooting touch and strong as a bull. A very effective player with the right pieces around him. Tyler Hansbrough and Scott McDermott come to mind as two other examples.

I know that I'm an optimist and try to temper my posts with that in mind, backing up any assertions with specific examples or stats where possible. I'm not overly concerned about convincing anyone; I approach MUScoop as a forum for discussion (exchange of ideas) rather than argument (I win vs. you win). Honestly, what's there to win?

Quote from: MU82 on March 16, 2018, 09:26:28 AM
Cool. Educate me.

Sam shot .480 from 3 and .514 from 2 in his 2 seasons at Marquette compared to Novak's .456 and .383.

Plus Sam had a better eFG% as a sophomore than Novak did. Roughly the same eFG% over 2 years.

I do like to learn, so I'll be interested in "proof" that Novak was a better shooter.

And I'm REALLY interested in learning how a sophomore Novak was anywhere close to being as good a player as the sophomore Sam.

Me too, I'm REALLY interested in that as well. If you can find the poster that said that, let me know, I'd love to DM him or her about that and have a chat. If they have a newsletter I can subscribe to, even better.

Their eFG% is within .1% of each other for their first two seasons. Also through 2 seasons, Novak's true shooting % was 67%, Hauser 65.4%.

I 100% stand by what I said, Hauser is the most unique MU player I've ever seen. I don't know if you just glazed over my initial post or what on Hauser, but go have a St. Paddy's day cocktail and cool down man.

Theo has some real potential to become a "man-child".  With a little more weight training, some agility/foot work to help control his body, read foul issues, he has the tools to becoming a pretty decent force inside.  The key to his development will be diminishing his fouls.  His offense will come as a result of his positioning  We are going to need a banger inside-preventing the 2nd shot on D and giving us 2nd and 3rd chances on the O-boards.  Kind of a hybrid of al's aircraft carrier and strong forward type

Quote from: Goose on March 16, 2018, 09:38:33 AM
MU82

IMO, Sam is heads and shoulders a better player than Novak based on first two years performance. I do not think it is even close. That said, I believe Novak was hands down the greatest shooter in MU history and by a fairly wide margin.

I simply haven't seen the stats to support that Novak was a better shooter than Sam - let alone "by a fairly wide margin."

Heck, I just looked up Markus' stats to compare, and it's close there, too.

And believe me, I really liked Novak.

Quote from: lurch91 on March 16, 2018, 10:08:58 AM
Not to nitpick, but KO made back to back NCAA Tournaments, which included a run to the S16.  Which Marquette hadn't seen in 10+ years.

I like Wojo, I see the foundation, just need to give him a little time to put it all together.

I didn't say what I meant to say in that first post, and when somebody reminded me of KO's 5th season, I offered this response (it's on the 5th page of this thread):

I meant he left after his fifth season. The Miller Game vs. Kentucky opened the door for KO, who was looking to jump ship at the first available opportunity. He was the first to regard MU as a stepping-stone job.

Like you, Goose, I know and like KO. And I appreciate what he did. But 4 years in, he produced one NCAA tournament appearance. We have debated before who had the more difficult task coming in, and I don't want to get into it again. But facts are facts. Four years, one NCAA tournament game defeat.

Let's see if Wojo's fifth year can be as successful - or even moreso - than KO's. I hope you're rooting for it. I sure as hell am.

MU82

Np, this thread is way out of hand and I'll be honest, I skipped some posts. 

Quote from: MU82 on March 16, 2018, 12:17:02 PM
I didn't say what I meant to say in that first post, and when somebody reminded me of KO's 5th season, I offered this response (it's on the 5th page of this thread):

I meant he left after his fifth season. The Miller Game vs. Kentucky opened the door for KO, who was looking to jump ship at the first available opportunity. He was the first to regard MU as a stepping-stone job.

Like you, Goose, I know and like KO. And I appreciate what he did. But 4 years in, he produced one NCAA tournament appearance. We have debated before who had the more difficult task coming in, and I don't want to get into it again. But facts are facts. Four years, one NCAA tournament game defeat.

Let's see if Wojo's fifth year can be as successful - or even moreso - than KO's. I hope you're rooting for it. I sure as hell am.

There is absolutely zero freaking debate as to who had the harder task walking in the door, Kevin O'Neill, or Wojo.  ZERO. 

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 16, 2018, 12:38:00 PMThere is absolutely zero freaking debate as to who had the harder task walking in the door, Kevin O'Neill, or Wojo.  ZERO.

So you both agree. No need to debate this again.

Quote from: Marcus92 on March 16, 2018, 12:45:41 PM
So you both agree. No need to debate this again.

Ahh no.  We don't agree.  82 believes Wojo had the more difficult task, than did KO.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 16, 2018, 12:38:00 PM
There is absolutely zero freaking debate as to who had the harder task walking in the door, Kevin O'Neill, or Wojo.  ZERO.

If people are debating it, that would mean the zero reference isn't true.

Wojo has to compete in a top 3 conference where this year we had to play #1 seeds FIVE TIMES.  There is no mercy in this league.  Also competing against Wisconsin for in state talent while they were on a 19 year NCAA streak including back to back Final Fours barely missing a national title.  Aging arena to play in.

However, the budget is there, facilities better.


O'Neill competed in the Midwestern Collegiate Conference and then the Great Midwest during a time where Wisconsin was not good, hadn't gone to the NCAA tournament for 54 years. Much easier to get in state talent, which he did.  Brand new arena to play in.

However, the budget wasn't there and practice facilities terrible. 


Zero debate is not accurate.  There are arguments for and against.  We like to take swipes at former MU coaches here it seems for not losing to Alabama last night, or not taking Indiana to a Final Four, but if we look at O'Neill's post Marquette NCAA career it is pretty bad.  All three seasons at Tennessee were losing records.  Two of three at Northwestern losing seasons.  USC was terrible after his second year with two straight years of under 10 wins.  His one year at Arizona they had to vacate all their wins.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 16, 2018, 12:49:25 PMAhh no.  We don't agree.  82 believes Wojo had the more difficult task, than did KO.

82 said: "I don't want to get into this again." You said: "There is absolutely zero freaking debate." Perfectly clear. No need for debate.

You see, Ners played high school basketball. So there's absolutely no debate - ZERO - that he knows more about the sport than the rest of us do.

It's automatic. Putting on a HS basketball uniform = basketball savant. Period.

The faster the rest of us accept that Ners' opinions aren't just opinions but facts, the faster we can all just cede this site to him. He can debate himself on every subject - wouldn't that be fascinating to read?!?!

It would be like getting to see John Wooden debate Dean Smith ... though I'll apologize to Ners right now for comparing those know-nothing losers to him.

I mean, facts are facts, you can't debate facts, and Ners has all the best facts!

Quote from: MU82 on March 16, 2018, 06:22:30 PM
You see, Ners played high school basketball. So there's absolutely no debate - ZERO - that he knows more about the sport than the rest of us do.

It's automatic. Putting on a HS basketball uniform = basketball savant. Period.

The faster the rest of us accept that Ners' opinions aren't just opinions but facts, the faster we can all just cede this site to him. He can debate himself on every subject - wouldn't that be fascinating to read?!?!

It would be like getting to see John Wooden debate Dean Smith ... though I'll apologize to Ners right now for comparing those know-nothing losers to him.

I mean, facts are facts, you can't debate facts, and Ners has all the best facts!

Plus he could dunk!

Quote from: MU82 on March 16, 2018, 06:22:30 PM
You see, Ners played high school basketball. So there's absolutely no debate - ZERO - that he knows more about the sport than the rest of us do.

It's automatic. Putting on a HS basketball uniform = basketball savant. Period.

The faster the rest of us accept that Ners' opinions aren't just opinions but facts, the faster we can all just cede this site to him. He can debate himself on every subject - wouldn't that be fascinating to read?!?!

It would be like getting to see John Wooden debate Dean Smith ... though I'll apologize to Ners right now for comparing those know-nothing losers to him.

I mean, facts are facts, you can't debate facts, and Ners has all the best facts!

You need some new material 82.

Quote from: Newsdreams on March 17, 2018, 03:13:20 PM
Plus he could dunk!

How many times do you think you've made this "joke?"  Over/Under set at 15.  Let's get some new material Newsie.

As for 82 - He made a dumb point.  Trying to suggest Wojo and Kevin O'Neill walked into similar situations.  Look, support Wojo, be an absolute apologist, like 82, but, let's not exaggerate and be silly. 

Recruiting to the Old Gym, the Midwest Collegiate Conference, coming off the train wreck of Bob Dukiet, as compared to the Al McGuire Center, The Big East, and highly successful 15 year run of Crean and Buzz?  That's absurd.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 05:22:33 PM
You need some new material 82.

How many times do you think you've made this "joke?"  Over/Under set at 15.  Let's get some new material Newsie.

As for 82 - He made a dumb point.  Trying to suggest Wojo and Kevin O'Neill walked into similar situations.  Look, support Wojo, be an absolute apologist, like 82, but, let's not exaggerate and be silly. 

Recruiting to the Old Gym, the Midwest Collegiate Conference, coming off the train wreck of Bob Dukiet, as compared to the Al McGuire Center, The Big East, and highly successful 15 year run of Crean and Buzz?  That's absurd.

Your dunking is good material! I couldn't dunk but spent 2-3 hours at rec center, a homeless (much worse than poors man) type Markus

Quote from: Newsdreams on March 17, 2018, 06:35:57 PM
Your dunking is good material! I couldn't dunk but spent 2-3 hours at rec center, a homeless (much worse than poors man) type Markus

Solid.

You'd likely beat me in a game of horse.  My 3-ball was and to this day, is, inconsistent.  Game was predicated on getting to the basket.  Not quite as effective now in my 40s.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 05:22:33 PM
You need some new material 82.

How many times do you think you've made this "joke?"  Over/Under set at 15.  Let's get some new material Newsie.

As for 82 - He made a dumb point.  Trying to suggest Wojo and Kevin O'Neill walked into similar situations.  Look, support Wojo, be an absolute apologist, like 82, but, let's not exaggerate and be silly. 

Recruiting to the Old Gym, the Midwest Collegiate Conference, coming off the train wreck of Bob Dukiet, as compared to the Al McGuire Center, The Big East, and highly successful 15 year run of Crean and Buzz?  That's absurd.

Ners, we're just two guys with opinions. That's all. The difference between us is that, no matter the subject, you always state yours as if it's incontrovertible fact.

I said I didn't want to get into this debate because it's been done a bazillion times here, including a couple times while you were banned. But sure, before you get banned again, I'll go ...

Who among the players Wojo inherited were equivalent to Tony Smith (one of the top 10 scorers in school history, and just a good all-around player) and Trevor Powell (15 pts, 6 rebs in Dukiet's last year)?

Derrick? Juan? JJJ? Taylor?

Oh wait ... I know ... the great Deonte Burton and John Dawson!

(BTW, I obviously have superior basketball intellect because I've been a high school and middle school basketball coach for 7 years now. See, that's all the proof anybody should need.)

Quote from: MU82 on March 17, 2018, 07:35:25 PM
Ners, we're just two guys with opinions. That's all. The difference between us is that, no matter the subject, you always state yours as if it's incontrovertible fact.

I said I didn't want to get into this debate because it's been done a bazillion times here, including a couple times while you were banned. But sure, before you get banned again, I'll go ...

Who among the players Wojo inherited were equivalent to Tony Smith (one of the top 10 scorers in school history, and just a good all-around player) and Trevor Powell (15 pts, 6 rebs in Dukiet's last year)?

Derrick? Juan? JJJ? Taylor?

Oh wait ... I know ... the great Deonte Burton and John Dawson!

(BTW, I obviously have superior basketball intellect because I've been a high school and middle school basketball coach for 7 years now. See, that's all the proof anybody should need.)

KO may have inherited some better players, but the program itself was a disaster when he came on board.  It's not even close that from a program point of view, Wojo inherited one in a much better shape.

Quote from: #bansultan on March 17, 2018, 07:45:17 PM

KO may have inherited some better players, but the program itself was a disaster when he came on board.  It's not even close that from a program point of view, Wojo inherited one in a much better shape.

But not from a personnel stand point.  Yes, Deonte was there for Wojo   But, Deonte's mind was elsewhere due to his Mom.  Everything else was in flux.  Not talking about program $$ here.

Quote from: Nukem2 on March 17, 2018, 07:55:45 PM
But not from a personnel stand point.  Yes, Deonte was there for Wojo   But, Deonte's mind was elsewhere due to his Mom.  Everything else was in flux.  Not talking about program $$ here.

Right.  Which is why KO got them into the NIT in year one.  But his second year, they were a disaster.

Quote from: Nukem2 on March 17, 2018, 07:55:45 PM
But not from a personnel stand point.  Yes, Deonte was there for Wojo   But, Deonte's mind was elsewhere due to his Mom.  Everything else was in flux.  Not talking about program $$ here.

JJJ was there.  Duane was there.  Luke was there.  Steve Taylor was there.  A winning tradition was there, the best tradition since the days of Al, preceded Wojo.  O'Neill arrived in the shadows of Dukiet.  Not to mention the Al McGuire Center being present on Wojo's arrival.

So K.O. had Tony Smith and Trevor Powell for 1 year, outside of that?  What other "advantages" did K.O. have over Wojo?

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 08:19:34 PM

So K.O. had Tony Smith and Trevor Powell

Thanks for agreeing with me!

Not gonna do this for the 15th time, definitely not with you.

Quote from: MU82 on March 17, 2018, 09:32:23 PM
Thanks for agreeing with me!

Not gonna do this for the 15th time, definitely not with you.

I'm sorry to hear you wasted your time, 14 times trying to argue that KO and Wojo's tasks at hand upon arrival were comparable! No need for a 15th. It's a not even a debatable topic.

Quote from: Floorslapper on March 17, 2018, 11:04:27 PM
I'm sorry to hear you wasted your time, 14 times trying to argue that KO and Wojo's tasks at hand upon arrival were comparable! No need for a 15th. It's a not even a debatable topic.

Then why do you want to debate it for the 16th time?  Maybe you can go back to railing on Derrick Wilson for the 103rd time.

Quote from: TSmith34 on March 17, 2018, 11:08:54 PM
Then why do you want to debate it for the 16th time?  Maybe you can go back to railing on Derrick Wilson for the 103rd time.

I was not around for time 1-14. Can't believe it was even debated. Was shocked to see it even suggested the task at hand was comparable.