MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on March 09, 2018, 04:12:35 AM
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I can't even say I was surprised this morning to get up and see the scoreline.
While some post season success (probably in the NIT) would be great, this team has basically lived up to the exact collective expectation of Scoop. For what it's worth here are my picks from Brew's prediction thread
Total Record: 18-12
Big East Record: 9-9
Big East Finish: 6
Big East Tournament Record: 1-1
Postseason: NCAA first four loss [11 seed]
Pretty darn close, as was I think the modal prediction.
But I hoped for more. Wojo's tenure infuriates me for no other reason than we do exactly as well as we expect every year. Maybe it's because I came of age in the Crean/Buzz era where it felt like we were the team that always punched above its weight. It felt good to have the chip on the shoulder and make the pundits eat crow every year. But that's not this era.
So I can't call for Wojo's head this year (not that it matters in the least if I do) and all I can do is hope that he meets Scoop's collective expectation for next season and beyond. If we can consistently field a team that we expect should finish top-3 BE and is in the 3-6 seed NCAA range year-in and year-out and we exactly meet those expectations, that's fine. I don't think Wojo is ever going to be able to take what he has and get 110% out of it. But if he's a "C" coach, fielding "A" teams, that's fine.
Hoping for a bit of magic in March, but the eyes are on next year.
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My sentiments exactly. Because I tend to be pessimistic about my teams’ prospects (the harsh reality of 60 years of following teams like the Brewers) when a team meets my expectations that isn’t a good thing.
I am hopeful for next season, but extremely frustrated that the guard situation is such a huge question mark in a sport that is so guard dominated. I see the pieces that are here and the pieces coming in, but can’t convince myself yet that the end result will be a top half finish in a conference with several very stable, high quality programs and others that are also a player or two away from joining that upper tier.
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I looked at that iconic photo after the Villanova win of the players standing on top of the scorers table surveying the crowd with those smiles on their faces. All of those guys were gone. The only player who was on the floor at the end of that game that returned this year was Sam. Replaced by freshmen, a redshirt sophomore, and a mid year transfer with half of a season under his belt. I predicted a ceiling of 22 wins and a floor of 17.
Haanif left, I started a thread about changing expectations for the team. Haanif certainly wasn't a world beater, but he was a big guard in a league of big guards who could get his shot, run the point in an emergency, and play some defense. I looked around the league and what was left on the roster and I was genuinely concerned about reaching .500 for the season, let alone the conference. I didn't post it, because I knew what the response would be. No getting around it, though, I was nervous. But the freshmen stepped up. They were still freshmen in a big, experienced league, but they competed. They were physically overmatched on a regular basis, but they fought.
Wojo and defense. Last night, Villanova shined a light on the true weakness of this team. V has big, strong guards. They would isolate their big strong guards, have everybody else clear out, and have their Sacar sized guards with skill drive through our 5'10 thin guards. Even when our guys stayed in front, they lacked the size to keep V from the rack. So, one of the fundamental problems of this team defensively is having tiny guards in a big guard league. Rowsey and Howard are not great defenders. They are really bad guarding someone 8 inches taller, 50 lbs heavier, who moves as fast as they do. Also, being guarded by those much larger guards makes it harder to get open looks. Simple physics.
But I see a structural problem in the man to man, particularly against the dreaded high pick and roll. MU does what so many do, doubling the ball handler with the big who's man set the screen. Buzz's team did this, it is a staple. Here is where MU's defense failed. MU left the big up high. They switched that ball screen. Leaving Matt/Theo/Luke/Harry all trying to defend the guard in space and taking the best rim protector and rebounder 20 feet from the basket. Other teams will have their defender of the PG recover after the hall handler is turned while the big dashes back to the lane with his arms up to try to block that pass. MU too often ended up with a big guarding a quick in space, with Andrew and Markus trying to contend with a rolling 6'10 guy at the rim. T
This approach can work if you have mobile bigs and guards with size. (MSU) If, for example, it was Sacar initially guarding the ball handler and Sam guarding the shooter in the corner, when the big rolled, there would be two guys with adequate size and strength to contest. That isn't what happened for Marquette.
So, this team was a little better than I thought they would be after Haanif left. Going forward, MU is losing a leader and gaining size. Cain and Elliott need to live in the weight room. Sam needs to get that hip fixed and work on his lateral quickness, as he is going to be guarding 3's next year. Sacar needs to work on his ball handling, as the last couple games as shown me that is the only thing stopping him from being a really good 2. Markus needs to work on ballhandling, and sharing. I doubt the magic graduate transfer PG with size is coming through that door. I doubt Harry comes back. But Eke is and there is plenty of other size. Matt and Theo will be a year better. Morrow is going to be a double double machine. Not 30 points a game, but a whole bunch of 12/10 games.
If the team returns relatively intact. If the Greg and Jamal are 15 lbs of muscle heavier. If Bailey, Joey, and Morrow are who we think they are, the pieces are there for a really good team. Guard depth is the issue. The coaches know it and are actively trying to fix it. If they fix it with a quality piece or pieces, a second weekend finish is in sight.
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I can't even say I was surprised this morning to get up and see the scoreline.
While some post season success (probably in the NIT) would be great, this team has basically lived up to the exact collective expectation of Scoop. For what it's worth here are my picks from Brew's prediction thread
Total Record: 18-12
Big East Record: 9-9
Big East Finish: 6
Big East Tournament Record: 1-1
Postseason: NCAA first four loss [11 seed]
Pretty darn close, as was I think the modal prediction.
But I hoped for more. Wojo's tenure infuriates me for no other reason than we do exactly as well as we expect every year. Maybe it's because I came of age in the Crean/Buzz era where it felt like we were the team that always punched above its weight. It felt good to have the chip on the shoulder and make the pundits eat crow every year. But that's not this era.
So I can't call for Wojo's head this year (not that it matters in the least if I do) and all I can do is hope that he meets Scoop's collective expectation for next season and beyond. If we can consistently field a team that we expect should finish top-3 BE and is in the 3-6 seed NCAA range year-in and year-out and we exactly meet those expectations, that's fine. I don't think Wojo is ever going to be able to take what he has and get 110% out of it. But if he's a "C" coach, fielding "A" teams, that's fine.
Hoping for a bit of magic in March, but the eyes are on next year.
This is a perfect distillation of the Wojo era. Well said. Punching above our weight was so common for a decade+, it became the expectation. So now that we don't do that under Wojo, it feels like a failure. Juicing the most out of teams - more than most people thought possible - is what a lot of us miss about Buzz. Demanding that Wojo defy expectations is not necessarily fair, it's just what we had come to know because Buzz, for all his craziness, is simply a great coach.
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Really comes down to defensive scheme. We are outside the top 150 in defense per Pomeroy which is pathetic.
Having to play two diminutive guards and a lack of a shot blocker down low... sure that is a large part of it.
However, if you look at some of the defensive teams above us some of them have a real lack of athletic talent and also a dearth of height. Yet they are better defensively.
Expectations will continue to be met or disappoint until the defensive scheme improves.
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Yes, we met the preseason expectations of most Marquette fans. But we did it with our most experienced player (Haanif) leaving after five games. He was also one of our best defensive players...and defense was our biggest issue.
If we were asked to make our preseason predictions based on the assumption that Haanif would be gone that early, I suspect most of us would have downgraded MU a couple of games...and we would now be talking about how we did better than we predicted.
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But I hoped for more. Wojo's tenure infuriates me for no other reason than we do exactly as well as we expect every year. Maybe it's because I came of age in the Crean/Buzz era where it felt like we were the team that always punched above its weight. It felt good to have the chip on the shoulder and make the pundits eat crow every year. But that's not this era.
I feel like this is a good summary of where many here have a disconnect. Some are speaking of season expectations, others are speaking of program expectations. From a standpoint of season expectations, it's hard to say this team didn't meet expectations. Others speak of program expectations, and expect to be comfortably in the NCAA tournament more often than not. For that to have occurred this year, the team would have had to far exceed their season expectations, which could be seen as unrealistic. Will also make next year the real test - the season expectation is to be comfortably in the NCAA tournament, and missing out and putting up one NCAA appearance in five years could be seen as a breaking point when measuring against program expectations.
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But I also don't understand why we are still giving Wojo the "personnel" pass. It's year 4. He has a gazillion dollar recruiting budget. Why don't we have a bunch of juniors that include some 6'5" guards and a lane-dominator?
Next year's team looks good on paper, but many of our teams have looked good on paper. And we're missing a PG. If we don't fill that spot with something quality for next year what are our expectations? Just making the Dance?
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Haanif was injured early on and when Sacar was starting many wondered, was Sacar starting on merit or because of Haanif's injury. Some wondered would Haanif see much time. I can't get too worked up about Haanif leaving.
I've come to the reality that this coaching staff is not going to engineer you any wins. The good news is they seem to be ahead of the game recruiting-wise and their development of talent has been solid. Sacar alone gives me great confidence.
Next year is big.
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Really comes down to defensive scheme. We are outside the top 150 in defense per Pomeroy which is pathetic.
Having to play two diminutive guards and a lack of a shot blocker down low... sure that is a large part of it.
However, if you look at some of the defensive teams above us some of them have a real lack of athletic talent and also a dearth of height. Yet they are better defensively.
Expectations will continue to be met or disappoint until the defensive scheme improves.
Defense is all about effort. During the DePaul game, the TV commentator recapped an MU huddle reporting that Wojo asked the team "Is offense fun?" All the players nodded. He then said, something to the effect of, offense isn't going to win. You need to play defense.
Why this message needs to be delivered in the first round of the Big East tournament is mystifying to me. This should be Day 1 of practice and Day 2, Day 3, etc... And those who do not "buy-in" to the message should have a wonderful on-court seat watching those who do "buy-in" when games are played.
We do not win on a consistent basis until defense becomes more of a focus for this program. It has been a problem under Wojo (for a number of valid reasons) prior to this season but with the talent on this team, the time for making excuses is over, in my opinion. Far too much talent to be this pathetic (yes, pathetic) on the defensive end of the floor.
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Haanif was injured early on and when Sacar was starting many wondered, was Sacar starting on merit or because of Haanif's injury. Some wondered would Haanif see much time. I can't get too worked up about Haanif leaving.
I've come to the reality that this coaching staff is not going to engineer you any wins. The good news is they seem to be ahead of the game recruiting-wise and their development of talent has been solid. Sacar alone gives me great confidence.
Next year is big.
This is the ultimate reality. I suspect it will ultimately take Wojo landing Top 50 talent in order for us to be a consistent NCAA team. I doubt we will ever move beyond a Sweet 16 under Wojo, and actually not sure he can even get us there.
Haanif leaving was addition by subtraction. Never played well at all against high major competition. Below the rim player. Cain and Anim far more athletic, and both with much more upside.
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Haanif is a 6'5 guard in a league of big guards. He was a junior on a team without experience or depth. Two game difference.
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I feel like this is a good summary of where many here have a disconnect. Some are speaking of season expectations, others are speaking of program expectations. From a standpoint of season expectations, it's hard to say this team didn't meet expectations. Others speak of program expectations, and expect to be comfortably in the NCAA tournament more often than not. For that to have occurred this year, the team would have had to far exceed their season expectations beat a #180 ranked RPI team in the friendliest road game on the schedule, which could be seen as unrealistic a piece of cake. Will also make next year the real test - the season expectation is to be comfortably in the NCAA tournament, and missing out and putting up one NCAA appearance in five years could be seen as a breaking point when measuring against program expectations.
FIFY
Seton Hall ended up not being as tough as we thought they'd be, Wisconsin turned out to be hot garbage, and St John's fell below expectations as well. So while we may have ended up right where we thought we'd be despite losing Haanif, our schedule ended up being easier than we probably expected too.
This isn't to say there's no credit due to the team or to Wojo for the successes they've had, but I think if we're talking about expectations from November, it makes sense to consider the full scope of what occurred during the season.
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Haanif is a 6'5 guard in a league of big guards. He was a junior on a team without experience or depth. Two game difference.
Again, he provided no Value Add when he was here...the 2nd worst defensive value add on the team. So, is that two more losses?
Greg, Jamal and Sacar stepped up and gave us more. MU didn't need a moper to stick around to get us over the top. MU needed one more conference win to land us in 3rd place. Haanif hanging on would have made it three more.
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Haanif is a 6'5 guard in a league of big guards. He was a junior on a team without experience or depth. Two game difference.
I think Sacar filled Haanif's shoes just fine. I'll take sophomore Sacar over sophomore Haanif any day. We'll never know how good junior Haanif could have been, but in the end, I don't think it was a two game difference.
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Haanif is a 6'5 guard in a league of big guards. He was a junior on a team without experience or depth. Two game difference.
My suspicion is that Haanif was getting demoted in favor of Sacar & the frosh and he bolted. His offense never progressed at all from freshman year, and Sacar/Cain/Elliott's defense is just as good if not better while providing slashing/shooting/decision-making Cheatham did not possess. Do we win the St. John's/DePaul game because of wing depth with him here? Maybe @DePaul. But do we come back @Creighton with him playing over those guys? Do we win @Georgetown? Creighton at home? I submit no. Haanif was addition by subtraction, his leaving made way for better players.
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Depth. Having more than one Scar sure would have been nice. Many talked about taking out the small guys at the end of games. Putting in an experience 6'5 guy sure would have been a nice option. Dr.B, I don't think Haanif is awesome. I think he is a 6'5 junior on a team lacking size, experience and depth. Sure Greg and Jamal developed. But sometimes they played like skinny freshmen. Sometimes, Greg fell over while dribbling. Sometimes, Cain got pushed out of the way. When Markus got hurt, it would have been nice to have an extra guard.
Depth, experience, size, options. Cost us two games.
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This is a perfect distillation of the Wojo era. Well said. Punching above our weight was so common for a decade+, it became the expectation. So now that we don't do that under Wojo, it feels like a failure. Juicing the most out of teams - more than most people thought possible - is what a lot of us miss about Buzz. Demanding that Wojo defy expectations is not necessarily fair, it's just what we had come to know because Buzz, for all his craziness, is simply a great coach.
I think this is a myth, though.
If you want to make an argument that Buzz's teams were way undervalued by preseason prognosticators, I'll agree with you. If you want to laud Buzz for finding talented players who were ignored/undervalued by recruiting services and the like, I'd say that's without a doubt Buzz's greatest strength as a coach.
But saying his teams punched above their weight just doesn't hold up when you look at the rosters.
- The 2010 team that lost in the first round to #11 Washington featured two future first-round picks (Hayward, Butler) and two others who had a cup of coffee in the league (DJO, Buycks). Three of the four were upperclassmen.
- The 2011 team that squeaked into the tourney and then pulled out a couple upsets to go to the Sweet 16 had six future NBA players on the roster. All but one was an upperclassman.
- The 2009 team that eked past Utah State then lost in the second round had three future NBA players plus the program's all-time leading scorer. And all five starters were upperclassmen.
I think the only team you could argue punched above its weight class, when you consider the roster talent, was the 2013 squad.
These were not bands of scrappy overachievers. They were teams with high-level talent.
I think when you compare Buzz's rosters to Wojo's, especially in terms of experience, it's not even close. Wojo doesn't get a pass on this. His recruiting and roster management bears responsibility for why MU seems to be one of the least experienced (and least deep) teams in the league every year. But we seem to be turning the corner in that regard heading into next season, so expectations reasonably should be raised.
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I like this thread in that criticisms are measured and the original premise was well stated (1SE).
I don’t agree with everything said about Wojo’s coaching future...but I am a MU fan as a product of the Buzz era. I like Buzz and will always root for him. I do feel the same about punching up and exceeding expectations in the past. Excellent wording. I think next year’s team might get us back there. We will see.
As for this year getting into the tournament will be a thrill and I’ll be looking for the first game upset.
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In this vein, maybe someone can do some maths:
How many games did MU win under the Wojo/Buzz/Crean regimes that were unexpected/underdog wins?
How many did they lose that were unexpected/favorite losses?
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I think this is a myth, though.
If you want to make an argument that Buzz's teams were way undervalued by preseason prognosticators, I'll agree with you. If you want to laud Buzz for finding talented players who were ignored/undervalued by recruiting services and the like, I'd say that's without a doubt Buzz's greatest strength as a coach.
But saying his teams punched above their weight just doesn't hold up when you look at the rosters.
- The 2010 team that lost in the first round to #11 Washington featured two future first-round picks (Hayward, Butler) and two others who had a cup of coffee in the league (DJO, Buycks). Three of the four were upperclassmen.
- The 2011 team that squeaked into the tourney and then pulled out a couple upsets to go to the Sweet 16 had six future NBA players on the roster. All but one was an upperclassman.
- The 2009 team that eked past Utah State then lost in the second round had three future NBA players plus the program's all-time leading scorer. And all five starters were upperclassmen.
I think the only team you could argue punched above its weight class, when you consider the roster talent, was the 2013 squad.
These were not bands of scrappy overachievers. They were teams with high-level talent.
I think when you compare Buzz's rosters to Wojo's, especially in terms of experience, it's not even close. Wojo doesn't get a pass on this. His recruiting and roster management bears responsibility for why MU seems to be one of the least experienced (and least deep) teams in the league every year. But we seem to be turning the corner in that regard heading into next season, so expectations reasonably should be raised.
I think that is a fair critique. Wojo's first recruiting class was a bust. This was a constant criticism of Crean as well (he couldn't keep recruiting classes for continuity and sustained success). I am willing to give Wojo some latitude on this, but if it becomes a pattern, the program will not sustain any success and all fingers will point at Wojo.
The nice part is that one (1) year from now, we will have answers.
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But I also don't understand why we are still giving Wojo the "personnel" pass. It's year 4. He has a gazillion dollar recruiting budget. Why don't we have a bunch of juniors that include some 6'5" guards and a lane-dominator?
Next year's team looks good on paper, but many of our teams have looked good on paper. And we're missing a PG. If we don't fill that spot with something quality for next year what are our expectations? Just making the Dance?
First, good thread. I know you've had frustrations but have always been rational about the pros and cons. As someone that always looks for a silver lining, I like being able to discuss this with people who aren't constant doom and gloom.
Next year is absolutely rubber meets the road time. I think two recruiting wins hurt Wojo in team construction. The first was Henry Ellenson. You don't pass on a McDonald's All American and certain NBA first round pick when you're trying to rebuild, but that may well have cost us future depth in Gabe Levin and Steve Taylor and star power in Kyle Washington. Maybe those guys still go elsewhere, but Henry certainly impacted their decisions.
The second was Markus Howard. Again, how do you pass on a sharpshooting point guard that is one of the leaders on a gold medal U-18 Team USA squad and would've likely been an All American had he not graduated early? I think the staff had to take Markus, but they already had Rowsey on the roster. Does it become harder to land future guards like Jordan Poole, Terrance Lewis, Noah Locke, Torrence Watson, or Quentin Grimes when we've already seen one starting point guard in Traci Carter transfer while citing Howard as a reason for his transfer?
Are those excuses, self-made roadblocks, or simple mismanagement? I don't know. But on paper, next year should be the one where the defense improves and the team rises up the league. Until we see the results, the jury remains out.
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brewcity
I was a top tier PG I would love to play alongside Howard. Zero idea on how Howard makes it difficult to land a top level PG. Howard is NOT a PG.
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I agree with Pakuni that "punching above our weight" is a rosy recollection of years past. He spoke of Buzz's tenure, but my first thought was about Crean's (like WarriorFred's). I recall years of feeling like the teams faded last season and rarely met hopes and expectations (2003 notwithstanding, obviously). That was part of people's frustration with Crean, that he couldn't seem to get the team to meet it's potential (that, and he couldn't recruit a quality big).
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I think this is a myth, though.
If you want to make an argument that Buzz's teams were way undervalued by preseason prognosticators, I'll agree with you. If you want to laud Buzz for finding talented players who were ignored/undervalued by recruiting services and the like, I'd say that's without a doubt Buzz's greatest strength as a coach.
But saying his teams punched above their weight just doesn't hold up when you look at the rosters.
- The 2010 team that lost in the first round to #11 Washington featured two future first-round picks (Hayward, Butler) and two others who had a cup of coffee in the league (DJO, Buycks). Three of the four were upperclassmen.
- The 2011 team that squeaked into the tourney and then pulled out a couple upsets to go to the Sweet 16 had six future NBA players on the roster. All but one was an upperclassman.
- The 2009 team that eked past Utah State then lost in the second round had three future NBA players plus the program's all-time leading scorer. And all five starters were upperclassmen.
I think the only team you could argue punched above its weight class, when you consider the roster talent, was the 2013 squad.
These were not bands of scrappy overachievers. They were teams with high-level talent.
I think when you compare Buzz's rosters to Wojo's, especially in terms of experience, it's not even close. Wojo doesn't get a pass on this. His recruiting and roster management bears responsibility for why MU seems to be one of the least experienced (and least deep) teams in the league every year. But we seem to be turning the corner in that regard heading into next season, so expectations reasonably should be raised.
Agreed. Buzz's teams were stacked and experienced. It was great! Wojo's teams will be similarly stacked & experienced the next 2 years for the first time in his tenure. Expectations should be top 3 Big East, S16 or better.
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brewcity
I was a top tier PG I would love to play alongside Howard. Zero idea on how Howard makes it difficult to land a top level PG. Howard is NOT a PG.
He's definitely more a SG right now, but my guess is the basketball traditionalists look at our roster and figure "he's 5'10" so he must be their PG", not to mention Traci transferring because he felt Markus would end up as Marquette's all time leading scorer.
Other than Grimes and Hagans, most of the guards they've recruited to play alongside Howard seem to be combo guards, so they may still at him as a PG (I agree he isn't yet, though he has started improving that skillset).
The best indicator will be in a month when we dip into the grad transfer waters. I don't see how any top tier grad transfer PG wouldn't see this as a great situation, and further display to 2019 targets like Hagans and Carton that playing alongside Howard is a great opportunity, but we'll see.
The promise for next year is there, but the staff still has to turn that promise into proof.
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First, good thread. I know you've had frustrations but have always been rational about the pros and cons. As someone that always looks for a silver lining, I like being able to discuss this with people who aren't constant doom and gloom.
Next year is absolutely rubber meets the road time. I think two recruiting wins hurt Wojo in team construction. The first was Henry Ellenson. You don't pass on a McDonald's All American and certain NBA first round pick when you're trying to rebuild, but that may well have cost us future depth in Gabe Levin and Steve Taylor and star power in Kyle Washington. Maybe those guys still go elsewhere, but Henry certainly impacted their decisions.
The second was Markus Howard. Again, how do you pass on a sharpshooting point guard that is one of the leaders on a gold medal U-18 Team USA squad and would've likely been an All American had he not graduated early? I think the staff had to take Markus, but they already had Rowsey on the roster. Does it become harder to land future guards like Jordan Poole, Terrance Lewis, Noah Locke, Torrence Watson, or Quentin Grimes when we've already seen one starting point guard in Traci Carter transfer while citing Howard as a reason for his transfer?
Are those excuses, self-made roadblocks, or simple mismanagement? I don't know. But on paper, next year should be the one where the defense improves and the team rises up the league. Until we see the results, the jury remains out.
I agree on the Ellenson example but disagree on the Howard example, for two reasons. It's up to the coaching staff to get the Rowsey Howard chemistry to work. Secondly, how about saying taking Rowsey was the issue...Two years versus 4. Having Howard from Day 1 at the point may have developed his PG skills quicker
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Crean could never recruit a PG while Yogi was at IU. If an elite PG thinks Markus is a PG, he isn't coming.
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Like it or not, the first 4 years of a coach's career are no way to measure his future success.
Building a winning program takes time. It took Jay Wright, John Calipari, Coach K, Roy Williams, Jim Boeheim, Dean Smith, Bobby Knight and Al McGuire a decade or more to win it all. Several of those coaches had losing records early in their tenures, and most didn't make the NCAA tournament until at least Year 4.
Wojo worked alongside Coach K, the winningest coach in the history of the sport, on national championship and gold medal Olympic teams. He appears to be an ideal fit for the university and administration. Program outsiders rave about him. He and his staff have upgraded the talent level and forged an elite offense — good enough to make the NCAAs in Year 3. Even this season, the team finished a single game out of 3rd place in the conference.
But progress has felt slow and steady at best for fans accustomed to deep postseason runs. The defensive shortcomings are shocking, bordering on inexplicable. Some even find Wojo lacking in personality, especially contrasted with Buzz's many eccentricities.
So does Wojo measure up to Al McGuire or Jay Wright? Certainly not, as of right now.
Will he eventually? Few coaches do. Again, however, no one can say for certain.
I get that fans are impatient. I know I am. Nonetheless, if your idea of success is previous coaches like Al or successful coaches at other programs, history suggests that patience is warranted. The next 12 months should answer a lot of questions about where the program stands under Wojo, and where it's headed.
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I agree on the Ellenson example but disagree on the Howard example, for two reasons. It's up to the coaching staff to get the Rowsey Howard chemistry to work. Secondly, how about saying taking Rowsey was the issue...Two years versus 4. Having Howard from Day 1 at the point may have developed his PG skills quicker
Except Rowsey had been here for a year when Howard committed. Rowsey committed in May 2015. Stan Johnson joined Marquette a week later. Howard reclassified and committed in April 2016. What should they have done, ran Rowsey off after he sat out a year?
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brew
Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.
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Agree with Goose, there was not a lot of potential in Traci's game. Made the best decision for himself, hope he continues to have success.
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Crean could never recruit a PG while Yogi was at IU. If an elite PG thinks Markus is a PG, he isn't coming.
But don't you think guys tend to do a little research on the roster before they commit? Anyone who's seen any Marquette tape knows that Markus isn't a PG. There's no way a recruit just scans the roster, sees a short guy, and just assumes he's running point. Plus, I would imagine that in Wojo's pitch, he makes that pretty darn clear. I know Crean's experience at IU is brought up a lot, but I have a feeling that was more of a fluke than a common trend.
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brew
Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.
And I believe this has been part of the issue. As Wojo's recruiting classes have improved,some of the less talented players in previous classes have chosen to seek playing time elsewhere. Not one of them transferred to a high major program. In addition, the need to fill in with grad transfers and with Henry staying only a year, we have had more new recruits (four this year) who have kept the team young.
I believe if we can find a top quality grad transfer point guard, kids in the 19 class will see how this team operates with Markus as the 2 guard and will be open to coming and building the program at Marquette.
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brew
Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.
And there inlies the problem with MU and other programs similar in stature....they can’t get role players to stay. Kids want to go to a different school and start. Can’t blame them, I would want to play as well. Especially if you don’t think winning a championship or final four is doable. Hopefully Sacar and Cain stick around,they will both be accepting smaller roles next year.
For the record, I think Marcus will be a good PG. He’s told to score for this team, he’s good enough to adjust with a balanced roster. Elliot can barely dribble up court without temporarily losing the ball, and that’s with his strong hand! They do need a backup or someone to play alongside Marcus.
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Mom
IMO the recent class is not high level recruiting. Not one of the three guys would transfer and play at high level program. They were given a ton of opportunity on an NIT team and showed some glimpses, but not dreams of potential numbers for the fans. At this point, the three freshmen are slightly more upside Traci Carter's.
Before any one bashes that, please take the time and re-read your praise of "The engine" his freshmen year. Many were excited about four years of "The Engine" running show at MU. I was not one of them.
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Mom
IMO the recent class is not high level recruiting. Not one of the three guys would transfer and play at high level program. They were given a ton of opportunity on an NIT team and showed some glimpses, but not dreams of potential numbers for the fans. At this point, the three freshmen are slightly more upside Traci Carter's.
Before any one bashes that, please take the time and re-read your praise of "The engine" his freshmen year. Many were excited about four years of "The Engine" running show at MU. I was not one of them.
The current frosh class is a post-epiphany Jay Wright-style class. High upside guys that fit a need and play within the system. Need guys like that for depth and deep tourney runs. The additional surrounding high end talent comes in next year (Hauser & Morrow).
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Really comes down to defensive scheme. We are outside the top 150 in defense per Pomeroy which is pathetic.
Having to play two diminutive guards and a lack of a shot blocker down low... sure that is a large part of it.
However, if you look at some of the defensive teams above us some of them have a real lack of athletic talent and also a dearth of height. Yet they are better defensively.
Expectations will continue to be met or disappoint until the defensive scheme improves.
We were bad defensively for two reasons. Starting two small guards and the fact that our bigmen have very
little ability to rotate defensively. Heldt is very good defensive player when being back down by an offensive player, but he is only average in defensive rotations. John is bad in defensive rotations and Froling is pathetic. Hauser is oaky, but Villanova players last night were just faking and driving by him. Playing defense has a lot to do with feet and we have bigmen with bad feet.
Our current bigmen are not going to have better foot speed next year, so better defense will have to come from the newcomers.
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ellenson
The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.
On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.
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Goose,
You might have noted that I said the talent level of Wojo's classes has improved, not that they were high-major recruits. There are two ways to get high-major players, you recruit them or you develop them. Wisconsin has taken the development route and had some success - because Bo Ryan could develop players. Duke and Kentucky just reload every year from the top 10 high school basketball player factory. I doubt that we will ever get to visit that factory on a regular basis. I believe Wojo has identified some talent and now we see how the development goes. I think it's looked promising with Sacar (that dunk, tho!), and we will see if Elliot and Cain can put on 15-20 pounds of muscle this year and build on their quickness and length. The progress is much slower than visiting the factory every year and picking out your new models. I'd like to give Wojo a chance to get there. The alternative - replacing him with a mid-major coach or another experienced assistent - means starting again at square one.
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ellenson
The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.
On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.
Does Wojo want guys to follow their shot? A lot of coaches don't emphasize it because an offensive rebound is a less likely outcome than getting caught short-handed the other way.
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sultan
As slow as Hauser is, I would be fine if he ran to halfcourt after the shot. The pose needs to go, IMO. Want to hold a pose for game winner at the buzzer...knock your socks off, otherwise, look for something positive to do post shot.
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I guess I have never seen it as a problem.
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Does Wojo want guys to follow their shot? A lot of coaches don't emphasize it because an offensive rebound is a less likely outcome than getting caught short-handed the other way.
Good point, I noticed the exaggerated follow-through and pose after a miss against Creighton where the rebound went right to where he would have been had he followed up, but you may be right that that one rebound may come at the cost of a few breakouts for the other team.
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I do find it interesting that some people think the recruiting has been great and the coaching mediocre. While others think the recruit level we're bringing in isn't high enough, which must mean the coaching is very good based on the results.
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CTWarrior
Unless Sam gets a halfcourt lead, he is not stopping a breakout. The shot you referenced stood out to me as well. I am not buying Sultan's argument, but he might be right. That said, take your arm down and get in position to make a basketball play.
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I think the follow your shot thing has been more obvious with Sam the last two days, because he doesn't seem to be getting the same lift that he usually does. His shots have been right on line, just a little short (possibly because of his hip). Overall I think everybody needs to follow their shot more, as good as we are offensively we would be much better with a couple extra offensive boards a game, and offensive boards often lead to great looks from 3.
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Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.
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Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.
Well good thing you aren't because you are overreacting a tad.
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ellenson
The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.
On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.
I don't recall my thoughts at the time of those makes (except for, maybe, "Yes!!), but another take on that was that they built his confidence and helped him realize that he can indeed play at this level. I don't see that he's become a chucker as a result of those makes, but he became engaged and a valuable part of the team. His threes really seem to be in the flow of the game, and I'm not uncomfortable with them. The pose I don't like, but there can be a fine line between a good follow through and a Jordan pose.
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Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.
Huh?
Cain has made 23 three-pointers this season (on 50 attempts, a very good .460 pct.).
Fake news.
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Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.
BTW, he went 23/50 on threes this year. He had the second best percentage on the team behind Sam.
So let's not intentionally diminish his year because you are all fed up about how he poses after the shot.
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Pakuni
That was tongue in cheek. Maybe I was thinking about number of free throws he has made (a joke). Forb the record, he is not a three point shooter and NEVER should have hoisted 50, even if he made 48 of them. Would prefer to see him develop skills that match his skill set.
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sultan
You and others know a great deal more than I do, but have you ever seen a "three point shooter" not be a "free throw shooter"?
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ellenson
The three freshmen were given a lot of opportunities to earn more playing time and build for the future. I remember the first Xavier game and saying to my wife, Cain making those three point shots was the worst thing that could happen to him. Highlight of his season was making several shots he should not have taken in the first place.
On that note, if I were Wojo, the next time Hauser, Cain or someone else sat in the Jordan pose after taking a three I would bench them for the game. I really like Hauser, but he has not followed a shot this season. Cain should be benched for taking the shot and benched for two games for the Jordan pose.
The X game at the BC is "the one that got away" to me. People say we should have beat DePaul, PC, St Johns etc. but we win this game, we're an 8 or 9 seed on Sunday.
We win that game if not for some really poor play design at the end...
Which of the 4 3s that Cain hit do you wish he pulled back?
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The X game at the BC is "the one that got away" to me. People say we should have beat DePaul, PC, St Johns etc. but we win this game, we're an 8 or 9 seed on Sunday.
We win that game if not for some really poor play design at the end...
Which of the 4 3s that Cain hit do you wish he pulled back?
Disappointing that we lost, but that game probably had the highest entertainment value of any we played this year. Back and forth all game, one possession losses always hurt but any neutral basketball fan would have been very satisfied.
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I don't think the three point shot should be a staple of Cain's game. But 50 of them over the course of a season isn't really all that many.
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Well good thing you aren't because you are overreacting a tad.
That's how everyone used to coach until not too long ago. Take 'em out and give 'em an earful when they did something boneheaded or lazy while it was fresh in everyone's mind. Then wait a little bit (length dependent on how good the kid is) and pat them on the back and put them back in. At UConn Calhoun used to do this all the time. But you did it in November and December so it generally is not an issue by now.
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DJOver
We agree!!!! The X game at home was very entertaining., a very fun college basketball game and environment.
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I don't think the three point shot should be a staple of Cain's game. But 50 of them over the course of a season isn't really all that many.
I do. If he plays 20-25 min/game next year he shoudl take 4+ IMHO. He has a nice shot and nice shot selction to go along with it. Let it fly when you feel it, gives the defense one more thing to worry about.
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DJOver
We agree!!!! The X game at home was very entertaining., a very fun college basketball game and environment.
Hey! We also agreed that Traci had a low ceiling and that it was best for him to move on, and that everyone need to follow their shots.
CU was always gonna have a great environment, same with Nova (depending on your opinion about the chants), but the X game was just a flat out great game to watch.
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ellenson
Cain has a nice shot? He cannot make a free throw. He missed two shots badly last night and thought both were going in. Secondly, if he plays 20-25 minutes next year, it is NIT again. Who is he going play over? No one graduated except the little guy. Is he going to play point?
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Having the ability to hit an outside shot is never a bad thing, but Cain is gonna make a living getting to the hole. His athletic potential is too high not to.
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ellenson
Cain has a nice shot? He cannot make a free throw. He missed two shots badly last night and thought both were going in. Secondly, if he plays 20-25 minutes next year, it is NIT again. Who is he going play over? No one graduated except the little guy. Is he going to play point?
Dude. He has hit 46% from 3 (57% in conference play I might add). As a skinny frosh. Once he puts on some muscle, using the 3 to pull out a defender will make it easier to blow by on the dribble and finish through contact in the lane. If he maintains 40%+, he should let it fly when open, otherwise he's doing himself and the team a disservice. And if we go more zone with added length next year, he's shown the ability to be very disruptive in those sets. Frankly, I'm confused by what you DON'T see in him.
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Having the ability to hit an outside shot is never a bad thing, but Cain is gonna make a living getting to the hole. His athletic potential is too high not to.
To be good at it in this league, he needs to get a lot bigger, though. Right now, he can get bumped off his line too easily and can have issues finishing a drive because of his size. Add 20-30 pounds over the next few years, and he'll be a handful for defenders.
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brew
Traci left because he was not skilled enough to be a starting PG on BE program. He can spin it any way he wants, he was not a high level D1 PG. I respected his decision to leave the program and wished him well.
Disagree here Goose. Traci made everyone around him better His PT was wildly inconsistent. Wojo vacillated between he and Cheatham. Traci was the one junkyard dog Wojo has landed..though Sacar qualifies too. Traci played with a lot of confidence and swagger too, great qualities to have in a PG.
I'd be shocked if Traci doesn't put up REALLY good numbers at LaSalle.
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Dude (ellenson)
I like Cain and think he will be an above average player moving forward. That said, I do not think being a three point shooter is in the cards for him. Manute Bol shot three pointers, did not mean it was a good idea. Cain has other skills to develop that would benefit him and the program in the long haul.
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Cain has made six 3 pointers in his life and poses like he is Jordan. Flat out, he would get his ass chewed out and bench time if I were Wojo.
Which goes back to depth and options. You chew out Cain and bench him. And you put ? into the game.
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Dude (ellenson)
I like Cain and think he will be an above average player moving forward. That said, I do not think being a three point shooter is in the cards for him. Manute Bol shot three pointers, did not mean it was a good idea. Cain has other skills to develop that would benefit him and the program in the long haul.
There's a difference between shooting 3 pointers and making 3 pointers. Cain made 3 pointers. If you can make 3 pointers and do not shoot them, that's a terrible idea.
If he regresses as a shooter in the future, then yeah he will probably shoot less three pointers.
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Eagle
See my post re: X game. Making the four against X was worst thing for his development this year. To boot, fans lacking ball knowledge, urged him to shot the three ball. He has far more upside in other area's.
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Eagle
See my post re: X game. Making the four against X was worst thing for his development this year. To boot, fans lacking ball knowledge, urged him to shot the three ball. He has far more upside in other area's.
Basketball isn't a zero sum game. You can score in more than one way.
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sultan
Nick Foles caught a TD pass in the SB, should be utilized as WR? Believe what you want about players and skill sets. That said, do not be disappointed if your team teams do not live up to expectations.
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I think what Goose is getting at is that a year from now, the scouting report on Jamal should not read three point shooter. Teams should not run him off the line the way they do Markus or Sam. His scouting report should read slasher, finisher around the rim. If he can hit a three as well, that's not a bad thing, but he should be living in the paint, because that's where his future lies and that's where he'll be most effective.
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I think what Goose is getting at is that a year from now, the scouting report on Jamal should not read three point shooter. Teams should not run him off the line the way they do Markus or Sam. His scouting report should read slasher, finisher around the rim. If he can hit a three as well, that's not a bad thing, but he should be living in the paint, because that's where his future lies and that's where he'll be most effective.
And that I agree with. It shouldn't be his primary game.
sultan
Nick Foles caught a TD pass in the SB, should be utilized as WR? Believe what you want about players and skill sets. That said, do not be disappointed if your team teams do not live up to expectations.
First, that is a terrible analogy. Football positions are nothing like basketball.
Second, he didn't just hit one three pointer. He hit 23 of them at a 46% clip.
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On the contrary, I want every player on the roster to have scouting report that says "solid three point shooter" among other things, 1 through 5.
Imagine the possibilities.
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On the contrary, I want every player on the roster to have scouting report that says "solid three point shooter" among other things, 1 through 5.
Imagine the possibilities.
I think Theo pulling up from 35 feet out might just kill some people on here
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sultan
Nick Foles caught a TD pass in the SB, should be utilized as WR? Believe what you want about players and skill sets. That said, do not be disappointed if your team teams do not live up to expectations.
Because one play is a totally apt comparison to multiple data points in a season?
Explain to me how forcing your man to close out your 3-point shot is is "the worst thing" for an athletic slasher looking for driving lanes.
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Eagle
See my post re: X game. Making the four against X was worst thing for his development this year. To boot, fans lacking ball knowledge, urged him to shot the three ball. He has far more upside in other area's.
In the 19 games since X, he went 13/25 (52%) on 1.3 attempts per game. This is just a really, really bizarre complaint.
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I think this is a myth, though.
If you want to make an argument that Buzz's teams were way undervalued by preseason prognosticators, I'll agree with you. If you want to laud Buzz for finding talented players who were ignored/undervalued by recruiting services and the like, I'd say that's without a doubt Buzz's greatest strength as a coach.
But saying his teams punched above their weight just doesn't hold up when you look at the rosters.
- The 2010 team that lost in the first round to #11 Washington featured two future first-round picks (Hayward, Butler) and two others who had a cup of coffee in the league (DJO, Buycks). Three of the four were upperclassmen.
- The 2011 team that squeaked into the tourney and then pulled out a couple upsets to go to the Sweet 16 had six future NBA players on the roster. All but one was an upperclassman.
- The 2009 team that eked past Utah State then lost in the second round had three future NBA players plus the program's all-time leading scorer. And all five starters were upperclassmen.
I think the only team you could argue punched above its weight class, when you consider the roster talent, was the 2013 squad.
These were not bands of scrappy overachievers. They were teams with high-level talent.
I think when you compare Buzz's rosters to Wojo's, especially in terms of experience, it's not even close. Wojo doesn't get a pass on this. His recruiting and roster management bears responsibility for why MU seems to be one of the least experienced (and least deep) teams in the league every year. But we seem to be turning the corner in that regard heading into next season, so expectations reasonably should be raised.
Pakuni, you’re wrong.
We only know they were NBA with hindsight. Crowder yes. But most all of them were surprises. My point is we were punching up. That is what it felt like. If you want to compare Crowder and JimmyB with anyone on our roster....I give! No contest. Hindsight is 20-20. But at the time most of the Buzz MU teams surprised with their achievement. It was exciting. Our current team have had inconsistent flashes.
It was no myth, I was one of the fans experiencing it. And to my surprise JimmyB became just about the best player in the NBA. Wow, you knew I that then?
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Pakuni, you’re wrong.
We only know they were NBA with hindsight. Crowder yes. But most all of them were surprises. My point is we were punching up. That is what it felt like. If you want to compare Crowder and JimmyB with anyone on our roster....I give! No contest. Hindsight is 20-20. But at the time most of the Buzz MU teams surprised with their achievement. It was exciting. Our current team have had inconsistent flashes.
It was no myth, I was one of the fans experiencing it. And to my surprise JimmyB became just about the best player in the NBA. Wow, you knew I that then?
I took a look at TeamRankings' season records against the spread to approximate how our teams compared against game expectations. For the past two seasons, Wojo has been right at .500, so he's literally the definition of "meets expectations." (Vegas' expectations, not necessarily the fan base's.)
By comparison, we were 48-37-2 ATS (40-21-1 in BE) in three seasons from 2009-12. Truth is, I think both you and Pakuni are right -- our guys were punching up and were seriously undervalued by the prognosticators.
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Pakuni, you’re wrong.
We only know they were NBA with hindsight. Crowder yes. But most all of them were surprises. My point is we were punching up. That is what it felt like. If you want to compare Crowder and JimmyB with anyone on our roster....I give! No contest. Hindsight is 20-20. But at the time most of the Buzz MU teams surprised with their achievement. It was exciting. Our current team have had inconsistent flashes.
It was no myth, I was one of the fans experiencing it. And to my surprise JimmyB became just about the best player in the NBA. Wow, you knew I that then?
It's not hindsight to point out a team had six future NBA players on it. It's the reality. Those teams had lots of talent ... more than a many of the teams you think they were "punching up" to beat.
Case in point ... the Xavier team MU upset in the first round in 2011 had zero players on the roster who've appeared in an NBA game. MU had six, one of whom is a perennial all-star and the other a solid starter. The Syracuse team MU beat in the next round had four future NBA players, only one of whom has played more than 10 games.
How does one compare those rosters and say MU was "punching up?"
If your rationale for believing MU was punching up is not the real-life talent of the players on the roster, but your incorrect assessments of those players before they arrived, fine. I guess I can't argue with your perception. But your perception is not reality.
Edit: None of this is a knock on Buzz. He gets 100 percent credit for finding these guys - some of whom were ridiculously overlooked - and bringing them to MU. But let's not pretend those teams succeeded due to a mix of moxie, sheer determination and magical coaching acumen. They succeeded because they were really good at basketball.
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It's not hindsight to point out a team had six future NBA players in it. It's the reality. Those teams had lots of talent ... more than a many of the teams you think they were "punching up" to beat.
Case in point ... the Xavier team MU upset in the first round in 2011 had zero players on the roster who've appeared in an NBA game. MU had six, one of whom is a perennial all-star and the other a solid starter. The Syracuse team MU beat in the next round had four future NBA players, only one of whom has played more than 10 games.
How does one compare those rosters and say MU was "punching up?"
If your rationale for believing MU was punching up is not the real-life talent of the players on the roster, but your incorrect assessments of those players before they arrived, fine. I guess I can't argue with your perception. But your perception is not reality.
Yeah, Buzz had some serious and athletic talent on his teams. Sometimes I think he got in his own way coaching these teams with his personal quirks and tendencies.
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I do find it interesting that some people think the recruiting has been great and the coaching mediocre. While others think the recruit level we're bringing in isn't high enough, which must mean the coaching is very good based on the results.
It's both. I'd say to date he's been a B- team constructor and a C+ coach.
And that's the rub - if we stay there then we're just good enough to not make any changes, but no where near good enough for what most of us want.
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It's both. I'd say to date he's been a B- team constructor and a C+ coach.
And that's the rub - if we stay there then we're just good enough to not make any changes, but no where near good enough for what most of us want.
I agree with most of this. I think people calling Wojo a bad coach are unreasonable. He's clearly not bad. In fact, he's clearly at least solid. But is he good enough? I'm not sure.
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I agree with most of this. I think people calling Wojo a bad coach are unreasonable. He's clearly not bad. In fact, he's clearly at least solid. But is he good enough? I'm not sure.
Right, and Wojo would eat up the Horizon League. Ironically, if we were there we'd probably go 25-8 with the automatic qualifier 3 out of every 4 years.
I'm just not sure Wojo has the chops to hang in the BEAST, either in terms of the teams he fields or the chessmasters he coaches against. Maybe he's just about at the inflection point on his learning curve and its all going to come together, but I can't shake the nagging feeling that those kinds of arguments (look at Jay Wright - he needed 5 years!) are just wishful thinking.
But I'm still planning on us cutting down nets this year - either in MSG or San Antonio.
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I don't think the three point shot should be a staple of Cain's game. But 50 of them over the course of a season isn't really all that many.
Being a three point threat opens up the driving lane for him. Defenders will not be able to play off of him.
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I agree with most of this. I think people calling Wojo a bad coach are unreasonable. He's clearly not bad. In fact, he's clearly at least solid. But is he good enough? I'm not sure.
I feel we win on talent FAR more than coaching. For example - consider the Creighton game at home - we won because Rowsey went out of this world bombing in 3's from 27 feet. We didn't run good sets, per se. The degree of difficulty of shots both Andrew and Markus have of hitting is pure talent. However, there were times where we did run some good action to get Sam a post up, and creating slashing opportunities for Sacar. Yet, it seems our only way to win was to shoot 45%+ from 3 on 20-25 attempts per game. That isn't sustainable IMO.
Wojo not recognizing that his team is outsized, outstrengthed, and outathleticed at EVERY position, yet choosing to install M2M as his base defense was a tactical blunder. Watching teams rack up fouls and running a layup line at FT line trip, and failing to adjust?
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On the contrary, I want every player on the roster to have scouting report that says "solid three point shooter" among other things, 1 through 5.
Imagine the possibilities.
I was at the Gonzaga/BYU conference championship game/. All of Gonzaga's starters could dribble, pass and shoot. It made me realize that Marquette was really deficient as a team. Gonzaga shot and made a lot of threes and it seemed like everyone was a threat. Gonzaga's short coming would be that they are not as physically strong as Villanova.
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Being a good three point shooter is high on my list. My point is simple, just because he made some does not make him a three point shooter. Similar to the big guy that never plays. He should be down low and not chucking threes.
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It's not hindsight to point out a team had six future NBA players on it. It's the reality. Those teams had lots of talent ... more than a many of the teams you think they were "punching up" to beat.
Case in point ... the Xavier team MU upset in the first round in 2011 had zero players on the roster who've appeared in an NBA game. MU had six, one of whom is a perennial all-star and the other a solid starter. The Syracuse team MU beat in the next round had four future NBA players, only one of whom has played more than 10 games.
How does one compare those rosters and say MU was "punching up?"
If your rationale for believing MU was punching up is not the real-life talent of the players on the roster, but your incorrect assessments of those players before they arrived, fine. I guess I can't argue with your perception. But your perception is not reality.
Edit: None of this is a knock on Buzz. He gets 100 percent credit for finding these guys - some of whom were ridiculously overlooked - and bringing them to MU. But let's not pretend those teams succeeded due to a mix of moxie, sheer determination and magical coaching acumen. They succeeded because they were really good at basketball.
You are definitely using hindsight here. At the time, most of the guys that ended up on NBA rosters weren't NBA-caliber talents. In 2011, Jimmy and DJO were the only guys who were probably NBA-ready. Vander was a freshman who really struggled from the floor and only averaged 5 points a game. Buycks was a senior scoring less than 10 points a game with little to no NBA buzz. Jae was good but not outstanding and was play out of position more often than not, which limited his ability to showcase his talent. And Jamil was sitting out so was of no help to the team in winning games. That's the assessment in 2011. You're using assessments from 2018 to call this a super talented team.
These guys needed 2 wins in the BET to get to 20 wins, and they were never ranked during the season. Making the Sweet 16 was definitely beating expectations.
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Cain's strengths may be driving and defense. But he also needs to shoot and make threes. That's the position today. If he can't hit the outside shot, defenders can simply sag off him and choke up the lane for the entire offense.
MU has had plenty of players who were primarily slashers and not great outside shooters (under 35% for their careers), but still averaged well over one three-point attempt per game:
Jamil Wilson 127 games, 87-259, 33.6%
Vander Blue 106 games, 52-188, 27.7%
Dominic James 129 games, 169-581, 29.1%
Jerel McNeal 130 games, 164-473, 34.7%
Dwyane Wade 65 games, 32-96, 33.3%
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I feel we win on talent FAR more than coaching. For example - consider the Creighton game at home - we won because Rowsey went out of this world bombing in 3's from 27 feet. We didn't run good sets, per se. The degree of difficulty of shots both Andrew and Markus have of hitting is pure talent. However, there were times where we did run some good action to get Sam a post up, and creating slashing opportunities for Sacar. Yet, it seems our only way to win was to shoot 45%+ from 3 on 20-25 attempts per game. That isn't sustainable IMO.
Wojo not recognizing that his team is outsized, outstrengthed, and outathleticed at EVERY position, yet choosing to install M2M as his base defense was a tactical blunder. Watching teams rack up fouls and running a layup line at FT line trip, and failing to adjust?
I guess we’re just going to pretend yesterday didn’t happen....
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I feel we win on talent FAR more than coaching. For example - consider the Creighton game at home - we won because Rowsey went out of this world bombing in 3's from 27 feet. We didn't run good sets, per se. The degree of difficulty of shots both Andrew and Markus have of hitting is pure talent. However, there were times where we did run some good action to get Sam a post up, and creating slashing opportunities for Sacar. Yet, it seems our only way to win was to shoot 45%+ from 3 on 20-25 attempts per game. That isn't sustainable IMO.
Wojo not recognizing that his team is outsized, outstrengthed, and outathleticed at EVERY position, yet choosing to install M2M as his base defense was a tactical blunder. Watching teams rack up fouls and running a layup line at FT line trip, and failing to adjust?
Okay. So you fall into the camp that believes Wojo is a good recruiter and not a good coach. That's fine. But there are a lot of people here who think he's not a good recruiter and the talent level isn't high enough. If that's the case, then his coaching has been good.
In reality it's probably somewhere in the middle.
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Cain's strengths may be driving and defense. But he also needs to shoot and make threes. That's the position today. If he can't hit the outside shot, defenders can simply sag off him and choke up the lane for the entire offense.
MU has had plenty of players who were primarily slashers and not great outside shooters (under 35% for their careers), but still averaged well over one three-point attempt per game:
Jamil Wilson 127 games, 87-259, 33.6%
Vander Blue 106 games, 52-188, 27.7%
Dominic James 129 games, 169-581, 29.1%
Jerel McNeal 130 games, 164-473, 34.7%
Dwyane Wade 65 games, 32-96, 33.3%
Not sure why you think Jamal can't hit the 3. This season, he hit 46% while taking 1.6 3-point attempts per game...in only 16.8 mpg.
Only AR, M2N and Sam took more 3s, and only Sam hit a better percentage.
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Sorry, was simply responding to those who said Cain shouldn't be shooting threes. He far exceeded my expectations this season. If he's hitting 40%+ from long range and has an open look, he should take it.
My point was that even slashers with average/poor outside shooting still have to take 3s just to keep the defense honest.
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Sorry, was simply responding to those who said Cain shouldn't be shooting threes. He far exceeded my expectations this season. If he's hitting 40%+ from long range and has an open look, he should take it.
My point was that even slashers with average/poor outside shooting still have to take 3s just to keep the defense honest.
Gotcha. +1
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Nvm. Quoted an old post and realized it had already been addressed ad nasuem.
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TAMU
I’ll ask the question again, have you ever seen a real three point shooter not be able to hit a free throw? He is not a shooter, period.
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Freshman. I want him to keep shooting 3's, not driving to the basket and getting fouled.
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TAMU
I’ll ask the question again, have you ever seen a real three point shooter not be able to hit a free throw? He is not a shooter, period.
I have, Jamal Cain. I don't know what his hang up with free throws is but he was the second most accurate three point shooter we had this season. He also was a 3 point specialist in high school. If his shooting had hurt us, I would agree with you. If it starts to hurt us, I'll agree with you. It hasn't yet.
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I have, Jamal Cain. I don't know what his hang up with free throws is but he was the second most accurate three point shooter we had this season. He also was a 3 point specialist in high school. If his shooting had hurt us, I would agree with you. If it starts to hurt us, I'll agree with you. It hasn't yet.
Same argument as home wins, 3 straight big east wins, following a shot, etc etc
Old school is the only school that matters to these guys.
Probably hate that Kevin Durant shoots so much from the outside since he looks like a slasher
Oh. And they're better fans because they've been alive longer than us.
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Musta bin a bad dey in da bagina biz, hey?
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TAMU
I’ll ask the question again, have you ever seen a real three point shooter not be able to hit a free throw? He is not a shooter, period.
Career numbers from some pretty solid players:
Antoine Wright - TAMU - 37.6 3pt%; 64.8 FT%
Obi Muonelo - OkSt - 38.6 3pt%; 65.4 FT%
Malik Hairston - Ore - 39.5 3pt%; 64.3 FT%
DeMarcus Nelson - Duke - 37.3 3pt%; 58.6 FT%
Lee Humphrey - Florida - 44.4 3pt%; 63 FT%
These are all 3 and 4 year guys who averaged over 20 mpg.
So yeah.....
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Career numbers from some pretty solid players:
Antoine Wright - TAMU - 37.6 3pt%; 64.8 FT%
Obi Muonelo - OkSt - 38.6 3pt%; 65.4 FT%
Malik Hairston - Ore - 39.5 3pt%; 64.3 FT%
DeMarcus Nelson - Duke - 37.3 3pt%; 58.6 FT%
Lee Humphrey - Florida - 44.4 3pt%; 63 FT%
These are all 3 and 4 year guys who averaged over 20 mpg.
So yeah.....
To be fair, none of them have the disparity Jamal does but yeah, good three point shooters sometimes aren't good free throw shooters. I'm not sure what Jamal's hang up is at the charity stripe.
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Freshman. I want him to keep shooting 3's, not driving to the basket and getting fouled.
Why would you not want him taking a higher percentage shot? His FT jitters will pass. He won't be a career 50% guy. A decent FT shooter at 70% gets more points at the line than a decent 3 point shooter hitting 40% from 3 if we play the probabilities. Shooting more and driving less doesn't seem like sound coaching advice.
I think Jamal's 3P% is probably a tad inflated this year from getting some wide, wide open looks, and I assume his FT% is going to be an outlier in his college career. I doubt you'll ever find a player whose 3P% is even within 10 percentage points of his FT% over his career for any guy shooting more than 30 3's per year and at least as many FT's. If anyone can find that guy, I'll happily buy him a beer.
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To be fair, none of them have the disparity Jamal does but yeah, good three point shooters sometimes aren't good free throw shooters. I'm not sure what Jamal's hang up is at the charity stripe.
Might be that he only took 21 FTs all season, but we'll see....
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I guess we’re just going to pretend yesterday didn’t happen....
LOL. Silly AF. We ran a full court zone trap last night...which was DUMB. We played the zone with both midgets in the game. WE didn't play it exclusively. Nova is Number 1 Offensive Efficiency team in the country...and they were en fuego. M2M was shredded just as badly.
Based on all of the above, by no means would I pass judgement on zone NOT being a better option for a team that is undersized, outathleticed, and outstrengthed.
Wojo got the blueprint at Creighton, and he was too stubborn and wouldn't roll with the zone exclusively - UNLIKE HIS MENTOR COACH K WHO MADE EXCLUSIVE CHANGE TO ZONE 8 GAMES AGO AND HAVEN'T LOST SINCE.
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LOL. Silly AF. We ran a full court zone trap last night...which was DUMB. We played the zone with both midgets in the game. WE didn't play it exclusively. Nova is Number 1 Offensive Efficiency team in the country...and they were en fuego. M2M was shredded just as badly.
Based on all of the above, by no means would I pass judgement on zone NOT being a better option for a team that is undersized, outathleticed, and outstrengthed.
Wojo got the blueprint at Creighton, and he was too stubborn and wouldn't roll with the zone exclusively - UNLIKE HIS MENTOR COACH K WHO MADE EXCLUSIVE CHANGE TO ZONE 8 GAMES AGO AND HAVEN'T LOST SINCE.
The zone without the trap was also shredded. But yes, nothing was going to go right last night. There is no magic defense.
And again, stats show that Duke has been better at zone all season. And the zone has been better during this 8 game run then the M2M. Coach K tried something, it worked and has continued to work, so he stuck with it. The stats don't support that for MU.
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LOL. Silly AF. We ran a full court zone trap last night...which was DUMB. We played the zone with both midgets in the game. WE didn't play it exclusively. Nova is Number 1 Offensive Efficiency team in the country...and they were en fuego. M2M was shredded just as badly.
Based on all of the above, by no means would I pass judgement on zone NOT being a better option for a team that is undersized, outathleticed, and outstrengthed.
Wojo got the blueprint at Creighton, and he was too stubborn and wouldn't roll with the zone exclusively - UNLIKE HIS MENTOR COACH K WHO MADE EXCLUSIVE CHANGE TO ZONE 8 GAMES AGO AND HAVEN'T LOST SINCE.
Whether it be a team strategy/scheme (for example, zone D), or a player's ability (playing Cain more per game) or a coach's ability (Wojo leading MU)...
What is your opinion on how long something should be consistently tried before making a decision on its success/failure?
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The zone without the trap was also shredded. But yes, nothing was going to go right last night. There is no magic defense.
And again, stats show that Duke has been better at zone all season. And the zone has been better during this 8 game run then the M2M. Coach K tried something, it worked and has continued to work, so he stuck with it. The stats don't support that for MU.
You don't get relevant stats when you simply throw a zone in for a few possessions a game. I'm sorry. The one half we went exclusively zone at CU we were .94ppp.
Your stats are great TAMU, but they are only so relevant. As we saw yesterday with Synergy D-Ratings saying Markus Howard and Harry Froling are the 3rd and 4th best defenders on the team. That's pure nonsense.
Honest question: If you were coach, why would you try to match up M2M when EVERY ONE of your players (sans Theo and Sacar) is at a size, athletic and strength disadvantage? Furthermore, WHY would you force your team to defend 94 feet when it struggles to defend in the half court?
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Whether it be a team strategy/scheme (for example, zone D), or a player's ability (playing Cain more per game) or a coach's ability (Wojo leading MU)...
What is your opinion on how long something should be consistently tried before making a decision on its success/failure?
I think the KenPom stats you linked about our D-Rating each year under Wojo illustrate he hasn't been making the right call defensively.
Best coaches have to look at their roster and figure out what gives them the best chance to win. Buzz was brilliant in this regard. The midget team shortened the game by limiting possessions. Beneficial as that team was outsized and wasn't deep, and therefore you try to conserve energy as best you can - takes a lot more energy to play D than it does O, and much more energy to play M2M than zone.
To answer your questions:
I'd give a coach 5 years max, yet I think you can tell pretty early if a guy has "it" or not.
I'd give a defensive philosophy 5 games (roughly 16% of a college season), if it isn't showing well (as in 175th in the country, you have to go to an alternative.)
As for PT, it is eye test related, but you NEVER are going to get a good indicator of what a player can be if you yank him in and out ever mistake, or every 3 minutes. This is an area I feel Wojo has improved - he's far less manic and "angry" in his substitutions. Keep going to that hot yoga Woj!
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The zone without the trap was also shredded. But yes, nothing was going to go right last night. There is no magic defense.
And again, stats show that Duke has been better at zone all season. And the zone has been better during this 8 game run then the M2M. Coach K tried something, it worked and has continued to work, so he stuck with it. The stats don't support that for MU.
I personally believe another coach could have this team playing better defense. Per Pomeroy here are teams that play better defense than Marquette:
- UC Riverside
- UWM
- Tennessee Tech
- Cal State Bakersfield
- Florida International
I am sorry but we have much better athletes and, in some cases, just as much length as some of these teams.
There is a defensive scheme issue. Either the players we have recruited do not match the scheme or the players can't perform the scheme so it needs to change.
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LOL. Silly AF. We ran a full court zone trap last night...which was DUMB. We played the zone with both midgets in the game. WE didn't play it exclusively. Nova is Number 1 Offensive Efficiency team in the country...and they were en fuego. M2M was shredded just as badly.
Based on all of the above, by no means would I pass judgement on zone NOT being a better option for a team that is undersized, outathleticed, and outstrengthed.
Wojo got the blueprint at Creighton, and he was too stubborn and wouldn't roll with the zone exclusively - UNLIKE HIS MENTOR COACH K WHO MADE EXCLUSIVE CHANGE TO ZONE 8 GAMES AGO AND HAVEN'T LOST SINCE.
Yeah I’m sure that has nothing to do with the talent that Duke has.
Seriously Wojo knows a lot more about basketball than any one of us. Your constant criticisms over strategy make you sound ridiculous.
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You don't get relevant stats when you simply throw a zone in for a few possessions a game. I'm sorry. The one half we went exclusively zone at CU we were .94ppp.
This is the same stuff you pulled when Wojo didn’t play some player you liked. But when he did, and they looked poor, your next excuse was “they didn’t get enough run.”
Your goalpost shifting is pathetic. When the numbers prove you wrong, you blame the stats themselves. Somethings never change.
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Yeah I’m sure that has nothing to do with the talent that Duke has.
Seriously Wojo knows a lot more about basketball than any one of us. Your constant criticisms over strategy make you sound ridiculous.
Yea - Duke a team far more athletic than our team couldn't get the job done in M2M, so K went zone, and stuck with it. Exclusively. Meanwhile our physically disadvantaged team was forced to play M2M for ~95% of our D possession this year.
As for Wojo: His decision-making has resulted in the team regressing EVERY year defensively. 4 years running now. At what point, despite him knowing a lot more about basketball than any one of us, does he not course correct?
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You don't get relevant stats when you simply throw a zone in for a few possessions a game. I'm sorry. The one half we went exclusively zone at CU we were .94ppp.
John Dawson at Georgetown.
Your stats are great TAMU, but they are only so relevant. As we saw yesterday with Synergy D-Ratings saying Markus Howard and Harry Froling are the 3rd and 4th best defenders on the team. That's pure nonsense.
Again, it wasn't d-rating, it was ppp allowed.
Also again, it didn't say Howard and Froling are the 3rd and 4th best defenders on the time. It said they are 3rd and 4th in ppp allowed, which is a fact.
Denying the stats when they don't suit you is not a good look.
Honest question: If you were coach, why would you try to match up M2M when EVERY ONE of your players (sans Theo and Sacar) is at a size, athletic and strength disadvantage? Furthermore, WHY would you force your team to defend 94 feet when it struggles to defend in the half court?
I would go with what my personnel are best at. MU's is M2M. I would also adjust based on the matchup which is what Wojo did against Creighton.
I would also throw out the occasional press. It can be a good way to catch opponents off guard and with long guards like Elliott and Cain it can be very effective. It has been effective multiple times this year though that zone trap was a look I don't remember from this season.
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Maybe it's because I came of age in the Crean/Buzz era where it felt like we were the team that always punched above its weight.
But did we always do that, or are you remembering the times that we did and forgetting the times we didn't?
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But did we always do that, or are you remembering the times that we did and forgetting the times we didn't?
Yeah, my fuzzy memory seems to recall lots of first round exits too, but even those years, and even when we were upset in the NCAA, it seems like the pre-season expectation had been NIT or worse.
In any event, Wojo is 0/4 in punching above the team's weight. Again, if next year is the start of a string of heavy-weight teams, that's fine.
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I simply can't understand why Wojo doesn't hire a defensive guru to help him?? That's EXACTLY what John Beilien did this year, and it was someone he had ZERO ties to previously...well, lo and behold Michigan became a top 50 kenpom defensive team, just like that, when they had never been close to that high under Belien before.
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I simply can't understand why Wojo doesn't hire a defensive guru to help him??
Cuz Ners wants too much money.
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I simply can't understand why Wojo doesn't hire a defensive guru to help him?? That's EXACTLY what John Beilien did this year, and it was someone he had ZERO ties to previously...well, lo and behold Michigan became a top 50 kenpom defensive team, just like that, when they had never been close to that high under Belien before.
You can hire anybody you want but you can see that 2 slow under the rim bigs, Heldt and Hauser, add two midget guards you are not really that strong or interested
in playing D, then 2 skinny freshman off the bench, adds up to a roster that is not capable of playing D. Have to change the type of recruit he is recruiting. Every team
MU plays, MU never has size advantage as well.
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John Dawson at Georgetown.
Again, it wasn't d-rating, it was ppp allowed.
Also again, it didn't say Howard and Froling are the 3rd and 4th best defenders on the time. It said they are 3rd and 4th in ppp allowed, which is a fact.
Denying the stats when they don't suit you is not a good look.
I would go with what my personnel are best at. MU's is M2M. I would also adjust based on the matchup which is what Wojo did against Creighton.
I would also throw out the occasional press. It can be a good way to catch opponents off guard and with long guards like Elliott and Cain it can be very effective. It has been effective multiple times this year though that zone trap was a look I don't remember from this season.
Championing stats when they spit out data such as Markus and Froling being the 3rd and 4th best defenders on ppp is not a good look.
Suggesting M2M was the best defense for this MU team that ranked 173 in D is absurd. Just as it is to suggest Wojo adjusted based on the matchup at Creighton - he was forced into it by early foul trouble, and losing Howard. If it was matchup based, why didn't Wojo go back to the zone exclusively against CU the second time they played?
Trying to support Wojo's defensive decision-making is where you lose people. It's fine that you are a huge Wojo fan and supporter, but to suggest M2M was the best defense for this team is hogwash.
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I expect to win more games at home while wearing gold uniforms during national broadcasts.
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This is one of the best threads I have read on Scoop in quite some time. Thanks all for the quality posts.
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In any event, Wojo is 0/4 in punching above the team's weight. Again, if next year is the start of a string of heavy-weight teams, that's fine.
Is he? No one had us making the tournament last year and we did. No one had us making the tournament this year and we're in the conversation.
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Championing stats when they spit out data such as Markus and Froling being the 3rd and 4th best defenders on ppp is not a good look.
So ppp allowed is a bad stat when it shows you something you dont like.
But it's a good stat when it shows zone was effective against Creighton.
And when it shows M2M was more effective in every other game it's a bad stat.
Got it.
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Getting back to expectations for next year I think we will learn a lot about Wojo because to be successful he is really going to have to redesign the offense. No more 3 guys standing around setting picks so a mini guard can run from one side of the court to the other. There needs to be a lot more pick and roll where the roller is an offensive weapon. More high low forward to forward passing and probably MOST important more drives by Marcus intended not to get to the rim but to set up others in the paint or for set shots both mid range and 3 pt. We did very little of this this year. He should also challenge all of his forward that they will be out there for much shorter lengths of time and during that time they better show max energy on offense and defense. The passing needs to be faster, no slow motion. There will be a lot of new talent out there BUT even most of the new guys will have practiced together for more than a year ( 1/2 year in Joey's case) so this team should know how to take advantage of each other's strengths. If the team doesn't play more like this I'm going to be disappointed and I think you've got to question coaching.
We should rebound much better with all that height. We need to reduce all the fouling. There should be depth to the defense so if an opponent beats his man he still has to get around another player of size and height.
As for results playing tough in some meaningful games would be nice for a change. Prov plays tonight for the BE Championship. Why can't that be MU next year. I would expect a season no worse than Butler's this year. If MU is the 2019 version of Seton Hall this year I think you have to question coaching (I don't Willard is a very good coach)
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I would expect a season no worse than Butler's this year. If MU is the 2019 version of Seton Hall this year I think you have to question coaching (I don't Willard is a very good coach)
The irony here is that Butler is 9-9 in the BE (as is MU) and Seton Hall is 10-8...but I think I get your point.
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So ppp allowed is a bad stat when it shows you something you dont like.
But it's a good stat when it shows zone was effective against Creighton.
And when it shows M2M was more effective in every other game it's a bad stat.
Got it.
That pretty much summarizes it doesn't it.
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Yea - Duke a team far more athletic than our team couldn't get the job done in M2M, so K went zone, and stuck with it. Exclusively. Meanwhile our physically disadvantaged team was forced to play M2M for ~95% of our D possession this year.
I trust Wojo and his ability to figure out what's best with his personnel than I trust you. Especially when the statistics back it up. Saying he is wrong then goalpost shifting your use of stats makes you look stubborn and petty.
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The irony here is that Butler is 9-9 in the BE (as is MU) and Seton Hall is 10-8...but I think I get your point.
Sorry, meant Creighton, not Butler. We should finish no worse than 3rd. SH was projected to be in the top 3 which is where we should be next year.
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So ppp allowed is a bad stat when it shows you something you dont like.
But it's a good stat when it shows zone was effective against Creighton.
And when it shows M2M was more effective in every other game it's a bad stat.
Got it.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/13qnovawnmvp0k/giphy.gif)
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So ppp allowed is a bad stat when it shows you something you dont like.
But it's a good stat when it shows zone was effective against Creighton.
And when it shows M2M was more effective in every other game it's a bad stat.
Got it.
Are you really this dense?
The zone ppp against Creighton IS RELEVANT because it is the ONLY time Wojo played it exclusively...and it was done with only 1 midget in the game. How many times do you need to get it through your thick skull that measuring the effectiveness of a defense that is sprinkled in ~5 random possessions per game, is NOT a relevant sample size.
We were 173 in D in the country. M2M was hardly effective.
And your Synergy D stats are silly. But, knock yourself out - if you believe Howard and Froling are the 3rd best defenders on the team, ahead of Sacar, Cain, Heldt - have at it.
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I trust Wojo and his ability to figure out what's best with his personnel than I trust you. Especially when the statistics back it up. Saying he is wrong then goalpost shifting your use of stats makes you look stubborn and petty.
Hopefully one of these years your faith in Wojo will be rewarded. Don't like the trend line of his team's defensive performances. Every year they have gotten worse. It's his roster. All his players. 173 aint gonna cut it.
There is no goal post shifting going on. My positions are consistent. Small sample size is irrelevant, and advanced stats have limitations. Howard and Froling being 3 and 4 on team in ppp allowed rating illustrate this perfectly.
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Are you really this dense?
How many times do you need to get it through your thick skull that measuring the effectiveness of a defense that is sprinkled in ~5 random possessions per game, is NOT a relevant sample size.
And your Synergy D stats are silly.
Ners - I might suggest a little introspection here. You're losing it again.
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Ners - I might suggest a little introspection here. You're losing it again.
Takes two Rocky. I'm no more "losing it," than are the usual handful of staunch Wojo supporters who counterpoint my positions. It's one thing to be supportive. Another to be a complete apologist. Trying to argue our 173 rated defense, as a byproduct of us playing M2M ~95% of the time, was the right coaching decision is, IMO, apologist territory.
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Hopefully one of these years your faith in Wojo will be rewarded. Don't like the trend line of his team's defensive performances. Every year they have gotten worse. It's his roster. All his players. 173 aint gonna cut it.
This has nothing to do with Wojo. I just think coaches know more about how to do their job than you do.
Now of course that doesn't mean debating those decisions isn't worthwhile, but when the objective evidence shows that you are likely wrong, continuing to insist that the coach is a moron and that you know better is going to result in a lot of eye-rolling.
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I'm no more "losing it," than are the usual handful of staunch Wojo supporters who counterpoint my positions.
Your "positions" are not as correct as you'd like to believe. Zone wasn't the answer for Marquette either. Feel free to call Marquette a bad defensive team, and likely Wojo not very good at coaching defense. But neither zone nor m2m was effective for Marquette this year. It's that simple. I don't know why you're being so "dense" as you like to call it.
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Your "positions" are not as correct as you'd like to believe. Zone wasn't the answer for Marquette either. Feel free to call Marquette a bad defensive team, and likely Wojo not very good at coaching defense. But neither zone nor m2m was effective for Marquette this year. It's that simple. I don't know why you're being so "dense" as you like to call it.
I can agree that we wouldn't be considered "effective" as in a Top 75 caliber defense in zone or M2M. I feel confident we could have been markedly improved from 173 to say 100 had we implemented zone from the drop.
You simply do NOT chose M2M when you are outclassed at every position as it relates to size, strength, speed. Our Foul Rate was off the charts. Why? Because we simply couldn't match up physically.
I'll leave it at that.
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Your "positions" are not as correct as you'd like to believe. Zone wasn't the answer for Marquette either. Feel free to call Marquette a bad defensive team, and likely Wojo not very good at coaching defense. But neither zone nor m2m was effective for Marquette this year. It's that simple. I don't know why you're being so "dense" as you like to call it.
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CourteousCrispDouglasfirbarkbeetle-max-1mb.gif)
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The irony here is that Butler is 9-9 in the BE (as is MU) and Seton Hall is 10-8...but I think I get your point.
I keep coming back to this. The difference between 7th and 3rd in the Big East is a single game. MU isn't where we want to be. But we're a lot closer than many think.
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I keep coming back to this. The difference between 7th and 3rd in the Big East is a single game. MU isn't where we want to be. But we're a lot closer than many think.
Yep. If we hadn't screwed the pooch at DePaul, things would be looking a lot different.
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TAMU
I’ll ask the question again, have you ever seen a real three point shooter not be able to hit a free throw? He is not a shooter, period.
Bruce Bowen in the Pros
NBA career 3pt % = 39.3%
NBA career FT % = 57.5%
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Right, and Wojo would eat up the Horizon League. Ironically, if we were there we'd probably go 25-8 with the automatic qualifier 3 out of every 4 years.
I'm just not sure Wojo has the chops to hang in the BEAST, either in terms of the teams he fields or the chessmasters he coaches against. Maybe he's just about at the inflection point on his learning curve and its all going to come together, but I can't shake the nagging feeling that those kinds of arguments (look at Jay Wright - he needed 5 years!) are just wishful thinking.
But I'm still planning on us cutting down nets this year - either in MSG or San Antonio.
Define hanging in the BEAST?
.500 in the #2 conference in the land isn't hanging?
Last year 10-8 in the conference and finished in 3rd place.
Year prior 8-10 in the conference.
Last three years, exactly .500 in the league at 27-27.
He's done just fine hanging in the Big East. Whether he can be in the top 3 type coach is a different matter unless .500 ball in one of the nation's premier conferences means not hanging.
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This is one of the best threads I have read on Scoop in quite some time. Thanks all for the quality posts.
Agreed. These are some Great Expectations.
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Define hanging in the BEAST?
.500 in the #2 conference in the land isn't hanging?
Last year 10-8 in the conference and finished in 3rd place.
Year prior 8-10 in the conference.
Last three years, exactly .500 in the league at 27-27.
He's done just fine hanging in the Big East. Whether he can be in the top 3 type coach is a different matter unless .500 ball in one of the nation's premier conferences means not hanging.
Yeah, but considering there are usually 3 cellar-dwellers per year, going .500 against the "good" competition would be a conference record more like 12-6. 12-6 year in and year out would be "hanging" in my view.
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Yeah, but considering there are usually 3 cellar-dwellers per year, going .500 against the "good" competition would be a conference record more like 12-6. 12-6 year in and year out would be "hanging" in my view.
Don't know if that's fair in a year where the conference has two of the top five teams in the country.
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Yeah, but considering there are usually 3 cellar-dwellers per year, going .500 against the "good" competition would be a conference record more like 12-6. 12-6 year in and year out would be "hanging" in my view.
In that case, why not just state that your expectation is "finishing in the top 3 every year" instead of "hanging?"
12-6 would have been good for third this year, second last year, third the year before that, and second in 2014-15.
FWIW, Jay Wright is, by your standard, the one and only Big East coach who can hang with Big East competition.
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Are you really this dense?
The zone ppp against Creighton IS RELEVANT because it is the ONLY time Wojo played it exclusively...and it was done with only 1 midget in the game. How many times do you need to get it through your thick skull that measuring the effectiveness of a defense that is sprinkled in ~5 random possessions per game, is NOT a relevant sample size.
So your sample size of one game is relevant. But my sample size of 1000s of possessions is irrelevant. Stats that fit your narrative are relevant, stats that don't are irrelevant.
We were 173 in D in the country. M2M was hardly effective.
Agreed. That doesn't mean that zone would have been any better or that it would have been better without hampering our elite offense.
And your Synergy D stats are silly. But, knock yourself out - if you believe Howard and Froling are the 3rd best defenders on the team, ahead of Sacar, Cain, Heldt - have at it.
Sigh....
Again (for the 2nd time) Synergy D stats are not a thing. Synergy is a service that collects stats. The same stat that you say proves that zone defense is the answer is the same stat that Froling and Howard are 3rd and 4th in.
Again (for the 5th time) Froling is the result of small sample size with some of his biggest games coming against the likes of American, DePaul, and Seton Hall (when they were struggling). Not sure about Howard though the difference between him in 4th and Cain in 7th is pretty small and could be explained by the quality of opponents they are facing.
Again (for the 4th time) I, nor anybody else said Harry and Howard were the 3rd and 4th best defenders. They are 3rd and 4th in a particular stat that is generally considered one of the best indicators of individual defense. I would rank them both behind Cain as well but ahead of John and Rowdy. Though John has come a long way and is weighed down by his early season stats.
Let's go back to how this started. You said Cain was a HUGE difference maker on defense. I provided a stat that challenged that assertion (but also added that I loved his length and ability to disrupt). To this point, you have only quoted your eye test as proof of your assertion. You pride yourself on "everything I say is backed by stats." What is the statistical arguement for Cain being a HUGE difference maker on defense?
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If Wojo switches to heavy use of zone D, how do other coaches game plan differently? There is no guarantee that one good half of a surprise zone defense means that a scouted zone repeats the same results.
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Of course. How many teams play zone as their base defense every year? Why do you suppose more don't? Coaches other than Crean know how to game plan for a zone. UNC shredded Duke yesterday.
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Back to the intent of the thread:
Expectations:
- top 5 BEAST every year
- NCAA tournament every year
- Exciting, fun to watch basketball
- Positive impact on community
- Clean (100% clean no questions) program
As for the comments about Cain... we've got a 6'7" Frosh slasher/rangy defender who ALSO shoots 46% from 3 with a legit sample size? And people are complaining? C'mon folks! I see Cain as a 4 year player who develops as follows:
Sophomore: 9-11ppg, 20 mins, guards opposition best 2-4 player when Sacar is out, can hold own against anyone on D. Rebounding improves.
Junior: 11-13 ppg, 5 boards, 25 mins, guards best opposing player 1-4. legit game changer
Senior: 13-15 ppg, 7 boards, 25-30 mins. Team leader and go-to guy on a team with 5 guys averaging double figures.
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Back to the intent of the thread:
Expectations:
- top 5 BEAST every year
- NCAA tournament every year
- Exciting, fun to watch basketball
- Positive impact on community
- Clean (100% clean no questions) program
You are asking a lot with those first two.
UCLA's longest consecutive NCAA streak is 15. Duke is on 23 currently. Neither are 100% clean. More realistic is 4 of every 5 years. Top 5 BEAST 4 of every 5 years. Hard to hit on all recruiting classes, plus injuries, transfers. At times I feel out fan base drives coaches away with expectations. We should want to be very good, excellent, but part of the challenge with being a coach is the fans often want you to always exceed the last year. Keep doing better than the previous record. Unsustainable.
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#5 is axin' lots two, hey?
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My expectations are the sum of the components:
Bigs-
Matt Heldt- Has made steady incremental progress each year( and through each year),so fairly confident in expectation he will improved and hit his peak as a player toward the end of the season next year. Obviously, the expectations are not super high, but we do know what we will get out of him.
Theo- The Big question is how much improvement will he make going from freshman to sophomore. My sense is he will make a large incremental improvement and his minutes will increase accordingly.
Morrow- He made a big improvement between his freshman and sophomore year. Now he took a year off to work on his game. My expectation is he makes another large improvement. Not as many traveling calls and less fouls.
Froling-My expectation is that he does very well against the cupcakes and will continue to be challenged by the more athletic teams. I am looking at him as a partial insurance against any bad losses in the non conference and a few good moments here and there in conference. I have also felt for some time he could possibly go pro in his home country where there are advantages for local players.
Ike- No expectations until we know the extent of how he has healed from injury and how much time he has trained with the team.
Forwards/Wings
Sam- Continue progression upward. My expectation is he becomes some kind of all Big East level player next year.
Jamal- Classic improvement from freshman to sophomore based on increasing body strength. Should be a key contributor in conference play with his length. Will also contribute minutes as a guard.
Sacar- Continue refinements to his game. Builds off the confidence of his solid year this year.
Joey- Has advantage of seeing how we operate. He may not play as many minutes as his older brother did as a freshman, but I expect a similar level of performance.
Brendan- Will come in more mature than a typical freshman. My expectation is that he willingly embraces whatever role he is asked to play. Should be more physically developed than when he was in high school. He is coming in relatively early so he should have a long time from May to October to get his D1 legs and shake rust off.
Markus- My expectation is he moves up to first team All Big East quality and becomes more of a distributor.
Greg- My expectation is he makes a big leap up, that his thumb is healed, and plays a key heavy minute role as a combo guard.
Cam- Continues to be a great teammate in practice and pump the guy up.
So overall, my expectations is the team performance should be somewhat similar to this year. We don't know who is leaving the other teams in the Big East early ,so to soon to say if we can actually move up on a relative basis in conference. My key focus player for next year is Theo. If he can make the incremental movement I am expecting, it should really open things up for the rest of the players on the floor.
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Of course. How many teams play zone as their base defense every year? Why do you suppose more don't? Coaches other than Crean know how to game plan for a zone. UNC shredded Duke yesterday.
Hey..nobody else is doing it so we shouldn't either. Always great logic and leadership right there.
As for UNC "shredding" Duke yesterday - They legitimately shredded Duke with 82 points in a victory in their first matchup when Duke played M2M. UNC then "shredded" Duke with 64 points in a loss at Cameron Indoor in the second matchup with Duke exclusively zone. And finally last night, on neutral court, UNC put up 74 - the first time Duke has yielded more than 70 points since going zone.
Granted UNC is the Number 5 team in the land in Offensive Efficiency, but suggesting they "shredded" Duke's zone is a stretch at best.
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I'll leave it at that.
You should probably stop saying stuff like this.
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Consistent use of a zone can work well when you have guys (1) with long wingspans, and (2) who consistently do a great job of blocking out.
Unless we have players hidden somewhere that I'm not aware of, I don't think that describes our team.
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Cuz Ners wants too much money.
He'd have to give up his frozen yogurt stand so it just isn't worth it.
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Of course. How many teams play zone as their base defense every year? Why do you suppose more don't? Coaches other than Crean know how to game plan for a zone. UNC shredded Duke yesterday.
In the NCAA tournament it appears Coach Crean's mentor doesn't either. For that matter, Crean's successor, Buzz Williams also couldn't. Maybe it is the coaching tree.
Though Syracuse has knocked tournament teams off their game with high level coaches for a long time.
Rick Bozich had a good tweet today. https://twitter.com/rickbozich/status/975482235469123587
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Nice catch. What I saw was an MSU team that wasn't listening to their coach. They got baited into settling for 3's. And they did. Over and over and over and over and over again. BTW, are you going to be able to come up with a connection to UGA?
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Nice catch. What I saw was an MSU team that wasn't listening to their coach. They got baited into settling for 3's. And they did. Over and over and over and over and over again. BTW, are you going to be able to come up with a connection to UGA?
I'm not good at that stuff, but following guys like Bozich, Goodman, Parrish, Gottlieb, Davis and others, they probably will provide those types of connections. By the time UGA goes back to the tournament, Boeheim will be gone. If you don't play against that zone often, it's a killer in the NCAAs.
Coaches that Boeheim has knocked out since 2000, quite the list.
Bo Ryan
Frank Martin
Mark Few
Buzz Williams
Tom Crean
Tom Izzo
Jamie Dixon
Tony Bennett
Mike Montgomery
Gary Williams
Roy Williams
Kelvin Sampson
Eddie Sutton
Cliff Ellis
Tubby Smith
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You, personally. MU, IU.... UGA?
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The rest of the season could still go any number of ways, but its safe to say Shaka has exceeded everyone's expectations (on this board and beyond) through 5 games.
So happy. The coaching of Buzz with the character of Wojo.
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The rest of the season could still go any number of ways, but its safe to say Shaka has exceeded everyone's expectations (on this board and beyond) through 5 19 games.
So happy. The coaching of Buzz with the character of Wojo.