Hypothetically, if all incoming recruits and current players agreed to stay, would you trade Wojo for Tom Crean today?
This is how bad it has gotten. People are talking Tom Crean.
Dat's hilarious, Bro. Kneed a good laugh on a snow filled mornin', hey?
I'll treat this one seriously, because I saw something similar posed on Twitter. I think that Crean is a slightly better version of Wojo right now. Let's not forget that while we celebrate 2003, that is the lowest rated defensive team to make a Final Four in the kenpom era and it isn't even close. He was a great offensive mind, pretty reliably in the top-30 in the country in offensive efficiency, but he only had top-50 defenses in 5 out of his 16 years as a head coach at Indiana and Marquette. You can blame some of that on the Indiana rebuild, but he was only 4/9 in seasons that he made the tournament with top-50 defenses. So even when his teams were good, they more often than not were still subpar on the defensive end.
If we were truly looking, and I still fully believe Wojo deserves 2018-19 and 2019-20 (barring a complete 2019 disaster) to prove what he can do, this would be my list:
1) Dan Hurley, Rhode Island: Has the East Coast connections, proven defense first coach that has developed a solid offense. Seems like a good fit for our league, and hasn't rashly left a middle-of-the-road URI job despite numerous opportunities.
2) Nick McDevitt, UNC-Asheville: He keeps seeing his best players transfer (cough, Andrew Rowsey, cough) and keeps winning more games. The metrics don't wow you, but his teams have been top-2 in Big South defensive efficiency the last 3 years. I think he's an under-the-radar guy that could be a star.
3) Brian Wardle, Bradley: I'm hesitant to put him here because obviously there are pros and cons to a legacy hire, but his teams improve win totals every year and also show consistent defensive improvement. It was too early for him when we hired Wojo, but I think he might be ready now. Anyone that wants a return to Tom Crean should instead look at his 38-year-old protege that has a better defensive track record as HC and ties to Marquette.
I don't believe Wojo is the answer, so if you said we could trade him for a veteran coach who won the Big 10 Championship twice, been to the NCAAs 8x, a Final Four, coach of the year in his respective conferences 3x.
Yeah, I'd take that guy. Baggage and all.
Quote from: DienerTime34 on February 04, 2018, 08:28:42 AM
Hypothetically, if all incoming recruits and current players agreed to stay, would you trade Wojo for Tom Crean today?
Have people lost their goddamn3d minds? Jesus Christ!!
Are we DePaul?
No.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 04, 2018, 09:18:06 AM
I'll treat this one seriously, because I saw something similar posed on Twitter. I think that Crean is a slightly better version of Wojo right now. Let's not forget that while we celebrate 2003, that is the lowest rated defensive team to make a Final Four in the kenpom era and it isn't even close. He was a great offensive mind, pretty reliably in the top-30 in the country in offensive efficiency, but he only had top-50 defenses in 5 out of his 16 years as a head coach at Indiana and Marquette. You can blame some of that on the Indiana rebuild, but he was only 4/9 in seasons that he made the tournament with top-50 defenses. So even when his teams were good, they more often than not were still subpar on the defensive end.
If we were truly looking, and I still fully believe Wojo deserves 2018-19 and 2019-20 (barring a complete 2019 disaster) to prove what he can do, this would be my list:
1) Dan Hurley, Rhode Island: Has the East Coast connections, proven defense first coach that has developed a solid offense. Seems like a good fit for our league, and hasn't rashly left a middle-of-the-road URI job despite numerous opportunities.
2) Nick McDevitt, UNC-Asheville: He keeps seeing his best players transfer (cough, Andrew Rowsey, cough) and keeps winning more games. The metrics don't wow you, but his teams have been top-2 in Big South defensive efficiency the last 3 years. I think he's an under-the-radar guy that could be a star.
3) Brian Wardle, Bradley: I'm hesitant to put him here because obviously there are pros and cons to a legacy hire, but his teams improve win totals every year and also show consistent defensive improvement. It was too early for him when we hired Wojo, but I think he might be ready now. Anyone that wants a return to Tom Crean should instead look at his 38-year-old protege that has a better defensive track record as HC and ties to Marquette.
Wardle? Well I guess, if you want to run off any recruit that still poops his pants.
Seriously though, would MU admin see Wardle's bullying/"bullying" as mark against him since they want a squeaky-clean program?
Please, please, please let's not talk Brian Wardle and MU men's basket HC in the same sentence. I hope we all want to see the program make major strides upward and any Wardle talk makes me cringe.
Hologram Al
Crean, 18 years, 9 NCAA appearances. He had a good run in 2003, but as brew points out, that was the worst defensive team to make a final 4. Also, recall the frustration about lack of ability to land consecutive decent classes, the inability to adjust when the wheels came off, the berating of assistants. So, no.
Quote from: Goose on February 04, 2018, 10:48:47 AM
Please, please, please let's not talk Brian Wardle and MU men's basket HC in the same sentence. I hope we all want to see the program make major strides upward and any Wardle talk makes me cringe.
? At least he had head coaching experience. Our last 2 hires didn't (please don't talk about new Orleans with buzz. It ruins my view)
I joked about bringing back Crean in another thread, but, if Wojo were gone, on a blind resume basis, Crean checks off so many things. Yes, we all understand the baggage.
I just re-read Matty V's interview with Crean prior to the 100 year celebration. I think there's a lot of maturity and perspective there with him now. I think tv has done him good as well.
I in no way think Woj is gone or that Crean is coaching here next year, but MU could do way worse than Crean.
Quote from: MUDish on February 04, 2018, 11:10:40 AM
I joked about bringing back Crean in another thread, but, if Wojo were gone, on a blind resume basis, Crean checks off so many things. Yes, we all understand the baggage.
I just re-read Matty V's interview with Crean prior to the 100 year celebration. I think there's a lot of maturity and perspective there with him now. I think tv has done him good as well.
I in no way think Woj is gone or that Crean is coaching here next year, but MU could do way worse than Crean.
Why would MU want a coach who got to 9 NCAA tournaments in 18 years and got past the first weekend twice?
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on February 04, 2018, 11:02:41 AM
? At least he had head coaching experience. Our last 2 hires didn't (please don't talk about new Orleans with buzz. It ruins my view)
Actually our last three hires, and four out of the last five, didn't have head coaching experience. But you know who did? Mike Deane. And you know who else? Bob Dukiet.
Quote from: The Lens on February 04, 2018, 08:38:50 AM
This is how bad it has gotten. People are talking Tom Crean.
Why not? Better than talking Wojo.
(https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/everyones_mad_cheshire_cat.gif)
Wardle has NEVER been to the NCAAs.
Not as a player
Not as an assistant
Not as a head coach
If you look at his Year by Year it's almost unreal at how effective he is at not making the Tourney.
Disclaimer: he's my second favorite Marquette player behind only Damon Key.
Crean - No. You don't go back to one you broke-up with.
Wardle - No. But talk to me when/if Bradley makes the Sweet 16.
Crean? Y'all need Jesus.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on February 04, 2018, 03:02:26 PM
Crean? Y'all need Jesus.
Buzz is by far the best game coach of the 3.
Shocks me a little saying that, honestly.
Can Hayzeus teach d-fence, hey?
Quote from: The Lens on February 04, 2018, 02:26:53 PM
Wardle has NEVER been to the NCAAs.
Not as a player
Not as an assistant
Not as a head coach
If you look at his Year by Year it's almost unreal at how effective he is at not making the Tourney.
Disclaimer: he's my second favorite Marquette player behind only Damon Key.
He's also only been in single bid conferences. If I was a major AD I'd look at the guy who consistently wins the regular season but ends up losing the conference tournament over a guy like John groce who takes a mid major to the sweet 16 randomly
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on February 04, 2018, 09:48:19 PM
He's also only been in single bid conferences. If I was a major AD I'd look at the guy who consistently wins the regular season but ends up losing the conference tournament over a guy like John groce who takes a mid major to the sweet 16 randomly
Wardle only won the regular season once. That being said, I don't think he's a bad coach, but if it weren't for his Marquette connection his hire would be met with a giant "WTF??" from the fanbase.
Back to the original posters question,
Crean in a landslide. Simple, look at the resumes' and look at everything Crean did for MU.
Quote from: #bansultan on February 04, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
Actually our last three hires, and four out of the last five, didn't have head coaching experience. But you know who did? Mike Deane. And you know who else? Bob Dukiet.
Yep.
Izzo didn't have head-coaching experience, either. Nor did Roy Williams before he got the KU job.
Also, Denny Crum, Mark Few, Jim Boeheim, Brad Stevens, Ray Meyer, John Thompson, Steve Fisher.
Quote from: MUpilot on February 04, 2018, 10:03:31 PM
Back to the original posters question,
Crean in a landslide. Simple, look at the resumes' and look at everything Crean did for MU.
If one only looked at the resumes, Ben Howland would have been our choice by a landslide.
Over Shaka, over Martin, over Wojo, etc.
There's probably a few people who still think he should have been.
Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive. We know what his ceiling is. 18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs. Wojo's is still TBD.
Quote from: tower912 on February 04, 2018, 10:16:19 PM
Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive. We know what his ceiling is. 18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs. Wojo's is still TBD.
Woj's resume right now is "Beat Villanova".
Quote from: MUDish on February 05, 2018, 06:33:24 AM
Woj's resume right now is "Beat Villanova".
But we don't know what his ceiling is. Right now, in the total rationality that this board exhibits during a losing streak, some are finding it difficult to see a brighter future. In our last two games, 136 of the 145 points have been scored by freshmen and sophomores.
I would rather roll the dice guessing at Wojo's theoretical ceiling instead of Crean's known ceiling.
Quote from: tower912 on February 04, 2018, 10:16:19 PM
Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive. We know what his ceiling is. 18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs. Wojo's is still TBD.
Not sure what your trying to say. Wojo's is/will be 1 tourney birth in 4 years. Advantage Crean??
What I am saying is that I know how far Crean can take a program. I don't know how far Wojo can. I would rather go with Wojo and risk failure betting that once he starts rolling MU will be a power. I have seen that Crean cannot create a perennial contender. The jury is still out on Wojo.
Lot of coaches/ex coaches I'd trade Wojo for even up. Tom Crean is not one of them.
It's frustrating sitting here with 4 straight losses and at Seton Hall coming up. But as of right now I'd still take Wojo over any of the other realistic options. You have to give him at least one more year before you even consider making a change.
Before this season I thought 9-9 in conference was a realistic expectation and I still think we'll be that or maybe 8-10. Some people on this board thought we could lose Reinhardt, JJJ and Fischer and replace them with a bunch of 3 star freshmen and somehow be a better team in a loaded conference. I still like the overall direction and especially what our frontcourt is going to look like next year.
We need to stay the course and see how things shakeout. If we can land 1 or 2 impact transfers over the next couple years and keep a good nucleus together we can still be really good.
Quote from: tower912 on February 04, 2018, 10:16:19 PM
Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive. We know what his ceiling is. 18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs. Wojo's is still TBD.
I'll take a ceiling of Final Four. No problems there for me.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 05, 2018, 10:54:49 AM
I'll take a ceiling of Final Four. No problems there for me.
Prepare to be yelled at by everyone for even intimating that Marquette Basketball has a "ceiling".
Quote from: skianth16 on February 05, 2018, 10:54:49 AM
I'll take a ceiling of Final Four. No problems there for me.
I am skeptical another unexpected future NBA HOF'er is Wading through that door. Having a mere Oladipo isn't enough.
I don't know what Wardle's long term is, but he did win a conference championship in the same conference that current Butler coach LaVall Jordan finished 4-14 in last year.
Quote from: tower912 on February 04, 2018, 10:16:19 PM
Disagree that Crean's resume is a positive. We know what his ceiling is. 18 years, 9 NCAA berths at two storied programs. Wojo's is still TBD.
Let's compare situations. Crean got his first head coaching job took over an MU program in limbo, using an antiquated facility for practice and in a middling conference mixed with basketball powers with no academic standards and a few private schools with actual academic standards. When Crean took over, MU had no local buzz, was drawing about 50% capacity at the BC. And, unlike KO, he had to deal with a resurgent Wisconsin program down the road, and yet he still was able to beat them out for two program changing recruits in Diener and Novak. In three years he had them in the NCAA tournament (and one Steve Logan full cour drive and buzzer beater from a conference title in 2001-02) and in four years to a conference title and in the Final Four, going through the highest possible seeds on the way there. (14, 6, 2, 1). If not for injuries (including the devastating injury to Diener) he has more NCAA tourney appearances. Even with those struggles he went out and got James, McNeal and Matthews, that set the program up for long term success. Crean left the MU program in far better shape than he found it.
He then went to Indiana as they are hit were some of the harshest sanctions levied against a basketball program in years. He inherited a roster with one returning scorer - a walk-on. He has very harsh recruiting restrictions too. It's a complete rebuild and then some. He gets a mulligan for his first three seasons. In his fourth year he has them in the Sweet 16, the next year a conference title and another Sweet 16. He takes a somewhat lightly recruited, 3 star 2 guard and develops him into a first-team All-American (sound familiar?). He wins one more conference title in one of the most competitive conferences in the nation, appearing in one more Sweet 16. Note that before those three Sweet 16's Indiana had appeared in one Sweet 16 since 1994 - 10 years earlier. If not for injuries, including a season ending injury to future first round pick, OG Anuoby, he takes IU to another NCAA tournament.
I know it's chic to engage in revisionist history when it comes to Tom Crean, considering many still act like jilted lovers, but Crean made the modern MU program after KO laid the foundation. I'd take Crean back in a second IF Wojo were dismissed.
Quote from: Billy Hoyle on February 05, 2018, 11:49:08 AM
Let's compare situations. Crean got his first head coaching job took over an MU program in limbo, using an antiquated facility for practice and in a middling conference mixed with basketball powers with no academic standards and a few private schools with actual academic standards. When Crean took over, MU had no local buzz, was drawing about 50% capacity at the BC. And, unlike KO, he had to deal with a resurgent Wisconsin program down the road, and yet he still was able to beat them out for two program changing recruits in Diener and Novak. In three years he had them in the NCAA tournament (and one Steve Logan full cour drive and buzzer beater from a conference title in 2001-02) and in four years to a conference title and in the Final Four, going through the highest possible seeds on the way there. (14, 6, 2, 1). If not for injuries (including the devastating injury to Diener) he has more NCAA tourney appearances. Even with those struggles he went out and got James, McNeal and Matthews, that set the program up for long term success. Crean left the MU program in far better shape than he found it.
He then went to Indiana as they are hit were some of the harshest sanctions levied against a basketball program in years. He inherited a roster with one returning scorer - a walk-on. He has very harsh recruiting restrictions too. It's a complete rebuild and then some. He gets a mulligan for his first three seasons. In his fourth year he has them in the Sweet 16, the next year a conference title and another Sweet 16. He takes a somewhat lightly recruited, 3 star 2 guard and develops him into a first-team All-American (sound familiar?). He wins one more conference title in one of the most competitive conferences in the nation, appearing in one more Sweet 16. Note that before those three Sweet 16's Indiana had appeared in one Sweet 16 since 1994 - 10 years earlier. If not for injuries, including a season ending injury to future first round pick, OG Anuoby, he takes IU to another NCAA tournament.
I know it's chic to engage in revisionist history when it comes to Tom Crean, considering many still act like jilted lovers, but Crean made the modern MU program after KO laid the foundation. I'd take Crean back in a second IF Wojo were dismissed.
Think you might be missing Crean not making a sweet sixteen in his three years with the best overall recruiting class since Al. Or Crean banging his head against a brick wall for 40 minutes against Stanford, by not doubling when everyone in the building knew exactly where the ball was gong every time, against a team that didn't have a head coach. Also consistently getting out coached by whoever was at Wisconsin. Don't know his record, but can't imagine he has more than 2 wins at he kohl hole. As much as Wojo deservedly gets criticism for his in game coaching, Crean was worse.
Quote from: MUDPT on February 05, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
I don't know what Wardle's long term is, but he did win a conference championship in the same conference that current Butler coach LaVall Jordan finished 4-14 in last year.
And Buzz finished 4th (out of 7 teams) in the Sun Belt Cfc West Div while posting a losing overall record in his one season at New Orleans.
Which means ... what?
Quote from: Its DJOver on February 05, 2018, 12:04:54 PM
Think you might be missing Crean not making a sweet sixteen in his three years with the best overall recruiting class since Al. Or Crean banging his head against a brick wall for 40 minutes against Stanford, by not doubling when everyone in the building knew exactly where the ball was gong every time, against a team that didn't have a head coach. Also consistently getting out coached by whoever was at Wisconsin. Don't know his record, but can't imagine he has more than 2 wins at he kohl hole. As much as Wojo deservedly gets criticism for his in game coaching, Crean was worse.
Crean was 3-6 v. Wisconsin with only one win (his last year at MU) coming in Madison.
9 years. 190-96. Marketed the crap out of the program, brought it back from the malaise at the end of Deane's run. Caught lightning in a bottle with Wade, went to a final 4. Won one other tournament game in 8 season at MU. Shepherded the team into the Big East. Had NBA players Novak, Diener, Matthews and still couldn't win a tournament game. I appreciate everything that Crean did for MU. I don't do revisionist history, however. His record is his record. Both at MU and at IU. And there is a reason he is unemployed this year.
Quote from: tower912 on February 05, 2018, 01:36:44 PM
9 years. 190-96. Marketed the crap out of the program, brought it back from the malaise at the end of Deane's run. Caught lightning in a bottle with Wade, went to a final 4. Won one other tournament game in 8 season at MU. Shepherded the team into the Big East. Had NBA players Novak, Diener, Matthews and still couldn't win a tournament game. I appreciate everything that Crean did for MU. I don't do revisionist history, however. His record is his record. Both at MU and at IU. And there is a reason he is unemployed this year.
Can we stop acting like Crean didn't help turn his guys into pros? It's not like they just showed up on his doorstep pre-packaged with NBA caliber games. This is the same thing the pro-Wojo crew does with Buzz too. Our past coaches have done some good things and helped turned good players into great players.
Trying to minimize the accomplishments in our past doesn't make our current team or coach any better. We can have good coaches and teams in our past while still having a promising team and coach at the present time.
Quote from: skianth16 on February 05, 2018, 01:42:47 PM
Can we stop acting like Crean didn't help turn his guys into pros? It's not like they just showed up on his doorstep pre-packaged with NBA caliber games. This is the same thing the pro-Wojo crew does with Buzz too. Our past coaches have done some good things and helped turned good players into great players.
Trying to minimize the accomplishments in our past doesn't make our current team or coach any better. We can have good coaches and teams in our past while still having a promising team and coach at the present time.
I'm not minimizing anything. I am flat out saying that Crean recruited and developed NBA players. And won one tournament game without Wade. I appreciate everything he did. But it is my honest opinion he, even after 18 years of being a head coach at a high level program, is a significantly better coach than Wojo. And Buzz kicks both their butts.