MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on January 24, 2018, 07:45:55 PM
-
1. Top 10 team in their gym. Bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. Sometimes, that is all there is to it.
2. Their defense on our shooters was good, MU's defense is bad.
3. Things went so bad that Markus even missed free throws.
4. Vent away.
5. It isn't going to get easier.
-
Sam hurt?
-
I'm just going to forget this game ever happened. Beat Nova on Sunday.
-
Definitely a burn the film type game. One thing I won’t dismiss though is Wojo hasn’t shown he can teach teams to execute defensively.
-
Yea, yea but, but wait until next year or is it the year after or is it ... another 5 years?
This is very painful for us but I can not imagine what it feels like to be in the locker room tonight.
-
As long as Sam isn't hurt I will get over it. I will say that wasn't a good 33 Pts by Markus tonight. 26 shots when the rest of the team had like 35....13 assists as a team tonight...Next leading scorer was 7 pts....just not a good TEAM effort tonight not enough movement. Brutal game by Andrew, Hauser couldnt get a look just not pretty. All the people saying Wojo Wojo even in the little edited for television recording its the first thing he said. X is a matchup nightmare for Nova with their athleticism and length....Hope for a good game against Nova
-
1. Top 10 team in their gym. Bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. Sometimes, that is all there is to it.
2. Their defense on our shooters was good, MU's defense is bad.
3. Things went so bad that Markus even missed free throws.
4. Vent away.
5. It isn't going to get easier.
Yes, it is that simple. Their players are bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. And our coach has had over 3 years to do something about it, yet the other teams players are better. Something wrong with the picture.
-
1. True.
2. True. This term, like a girl I went out with in HS, is virtually defenseless.
3. True.
4. Eh.
5. True.
This game was like the Xavier pre-game lay-up drill except we were in their half-court (at least sometimes). I forgot to note their total FG%, but I bet it's pretty good.
Sam saw a lot of pine second-half, what's with that? I'm willing to bet he didn't feel well, given what we saw out there - didn't really participate in the O, and poster material on D.
Don't want to be negative, there's a lot of ball left to be played, but I was not surprised that they pulled a stinker tonight. Let's give Nova a good game, then go win the ones that we're supposed to.
-
I wonder if whatever Markus had worked its way through the team. It has been a bad year for the flu and the vaccines weren't very effective this year. My family had a bout in this month and each person was sick about 7-10 days. A healthy Markus played well, the rest not so much.
-
Today was the first game that has me concerned for next year. Are we just going to be the "watch Markus" show? No one else did anything and just stood around.
He didn't do much tonight, but what he does when he scores has me convinced Cain will be a better version of JJJ by the time he's a senior
-
I understand that M2N and AR are exceptionally talented shooters and that they have the green light to shoot pretty much whenever they can.
However, we must have missed 20 cutters with wide open paths to the basket tonight while they dribbled around and looked to hoist a contested crappy three.
Of course, the one cutter they hit was Heldter Skeldter and he missed the bunny.
There has to be a middle ground where they look to pass as well as launch every time down the court, right? As bad as the defense was tonight (and it was spectacularly bad) I think the offense was even worse.
-
Yes, it is that simple. Their players are bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. And our coach has had over 3 years to do something about it, yet the other teams players are better. Something wrong with the picture.
Start beating the drum like you did for Buzz, willie. Maybe the next coach will be as big of an improvement over Wojo as Wojo was over Buzz.
Assuming there isn't a mass exodus, next year MU will be bigger, stronger, and deeper.
-
Wasn't expecting a victory, but not a beatdown.
FYI, Goodin was a top 70 recruit, who actually developed and Scruggs was a top 40 recruit who will be a nice player. They both had major roles in the win.
Congrats to Bluett for 2,000 points and for Rowsey telling him congrats, nice gesture. Remember Fox or ESPN did a segment on him and family, very good kid.
I know some like Heldt for his energy, enthusiasm, etc., but my goodness he has been terrible. Don't care about energy, need some b-ball ability. He now has 21 points in eight BE games, nine of which came in one game. He has one field goal in last three games. Time to play Theo and Froling, with Heldt third string.
Wouldn't want to be on that plane headed to MKE.
X had had our number last few years, that will change since they lose Bluett, Macura, Kanter and O'Mara.
-
Wojo skipped the post game radio interview and quit screaming midway through the second half. I sense practice in the old gym in t-shirts coming.
-
Wojo skipped the post game radio interview and quit screaming midway through the second half. I sense practice in the old gym in t-shirts coming.
this would be good
-
Every season there are three games where everything clicks and three were there are stinkers. This was the second of three stinkers with EIU the first. The outcomes on both most likely ended how they would have if MU didn't stink.
Consider ourselves lucky. Everything in between is what makes or breaks a team and defense helps your edge in the middle games. In that regard, MU is hosed.
-
Wasn't expecting a victory, but not a beatdown.
FYI, Goodin was a top 70 recruit, who actually developed and Scruggs was a top 40 recruit who will be a nice player. They both had major roles in the win.
Congrats to Bluett for 2,000 points and for Rowsey telling him congrats, nice gesture. Remember Fox or ESPN did a segment on him and family, very good kid.
I know some like Heldt for his energy, enthusiasm, etc., but my goodness he has been terrible. Don't care about energy, need some b-ball ability. He now has 21 points in eight BE games, nine of which came in one game. He has one field goal in last three games. Time to play Theo and Froling, with Heldt third string.
Wouldn't want to be on that plane headed to MKE.
X had had our number last few years, that will change since they lose Bluett, Macura, Kanter and O'Mara.
Harry will be starting soon. Should have tonight after the .9 day layoff. Heldt is a real team guy, but he is a bench guy.
-
Harry will be starting soon. Should have tonight after the .9 day layoff. Heldt is a real team guy, but he is a bench guy.
Harry was a major contributor to the bad interior defense though. I mean, everyone was, sure, but he gave a up a number of dunks. He certainly can rebound, however.
-
Wojo skipped the post game radio interview and quit screaming midway through the second half. I sense practice in the old gym in t-shirts coming.
I'm assuming Wojo has tied every ploy to fix the defense so old gym, new gym, t shirts , dry shirts likely makes no difference. I just cant believe we are this bad defensively but we are. Even Mike Dean had decent D with a lot less talent.
-
Harry could start in Sam's place if his leg is bad. Don't really want to start two bigs against Villanova, but there aren't a ton of options. Hey, heisie, this is when Haanif's absence starts to hurt.
-
Harry could start in Sam's place if his leg is bad. Don't really want to start two bigs against Villanova, but there aren't a ton of options. Hey, heisie, this is when Haanif's absence starts to hurt.
I’d start Cain instead of Harry.
-
I'm assuming Wojo has tied every ploy to fix the defense so old gym, new gym, t shirts , dry shirts likely makes no difference. I just cant believe we are this bad defensively but we are. Even Mike Dean had decent D with a lot less talent.
Let's not forget the bricks...
-
Even Mike Dean had decent D with a lot less talent.
Longer shot clock which he exploited with slow offensive possessions, so fewer possessions overall. Offenses still worked inside out and his defenses collapsed into the paint very well. His offense wasn't as good and there were a lot of games that finished in the 40's and 50's.
-
Yes, it is that simple. Their players are bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. And our coach has had over 3 years to do something about it, yet the other teams players are better. Something wrong with the picture.
He did do something about it. That's why we beat them twice last season. Then a lot of the something he did about it graduated. And now he has to do something about that. Life's a journey, not a destination Willie. Enjoy it!
-
1. Top 10 team in their gym. Bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. Sometimes, that is all there is to it.
2. Their defense on our shooters was good, MU's defense is bad.
3. Things went so bad that Markus even missed free throws.
4. Vent away.
5. It isn't going to get easier.
Not on Sunday, but after that, it certainly should. Next three at home, that should be easier. 4 left against DePaul, Georgetown, and St. John's, that should be easier. We could have a rough go against Villanova, but after that, we are done with the two best teams in the conference. Our last nine feature four games against the bottom three and three of the other five games are at home.
The toughest part of the schedule was the first nine. The Big East is never easy, but it certainly gets easier.
-
Harry could start in Sam's place if his leg is bad. Don't really want to start two bigs against Villanova, but there aren't a ton of options. Hey, heisie, this is when Haanif's absence starts to hurt.
Leg? I must have missed something.
-
Just a horrible performance. On to the next.
-
Really disapointed that after 9 full days off, that was the best the team and coaching staff could put together.
-
Leg? I must have missed something.
Hurt his upper leg or groin at some point, that is why he didn't play a ton in the 2nd half. No idea if it is serious or not.
-
Praying sam isn't hurt
-
As a couple other Scoopers said, this was simply a stinker.
Defense, offense - we sucked. (Especially defense.) That it happened on the road against a top-10 team made being competitive impossible. As John Fox said during his Panthers days: "We picked a bad game to have a bad game." (And he would know, as they had dozens of 'em.)
I hope even the Scowlin' Scoopers (our version of Debbie Downers) are willing to admit/remember that even some of our very good to great teams of Buzz and Crean vintage had games like this. For example, Buzz's E8 team lost at Florida by 33 freakin' points! I won't list them all, but there were plenty of others.
Now ... even I will be down-down-down if Sam is hurt bad enough to miss games.
I didn't start watching this one until the second half because I had a game of my own (our ladies won by 40 to improve to 18-1, thanks for asking), and I couldn't figure out why Sam wasn't playing. I mean, he was on the bench, in uniform, standing during timeouts - usually injured players aren't doing that. I guess we'll find out more soon.
-
this would be good
This is delicate territory.....I know... here come the wuss comments.
After 6 years of taking care of my folks and watching their health decline, and then losing both of them this year, it has been a trying time for me. After Xmas, I took the past month and went down to Florida to decompress. It was a great time, and something I needed.
Well, upon returning home I got the bug that's been going around, and have been also fighting the blues. Sometimes, things don't go as planned, and it's easy for a person, coach, or team to get really down after a rough patch and maybe even overdue it physically and mentally to get that winning mojo back. This time of year, with health being so fragile, I hope we take the right tack.
Throw this one out. As a horse trainer would say, "draw a line through that race." The last thing a winning conditioner does is overwork and punish a class horse. And yes, as a unit, we are still a class steed. Get that animal's mind right...healthy and fresh again. Our guys know they kind of embarrassed the Marquette brand a bit. The staff has 3 days to prepare for V. The players will be ready. Can't wait to watch the race Sunday.
-
Doesn't bother me too much. I mean, these games happen. Heck, what do you think the Seton Hall fan base was thinking after we spanked them in a similar manner. This was undoubtedly the second toughest game left on our schedule. Let's see how Wojo uses this to prepare them for Villanova. Good for Harry to get some extended run today. Showed some improvement. And Rowsey usually has a pretty good bounceback game.
Go Warriors!
-
Heck, what do you think the Seton Hall fan base was thinking after we spanked them in a similar manner.
I was thinking the exact same thing as I read a few of the more negative comments.
-
Lets just be ready for a bounce back game sunday #BeatNova..Again
-
I'm feeling a 4 game losing streak here. No bueno.
Xavier is very, very good.
Theo should start and he should play until he fouls out. At least he's willing to hit somebody and fight for the rebound. Have him in there for as long as he can be in before he fouls out and at least set the tone for guys driving freely down the lane. Then maybe they'll at least fool themselves into thinking someone is going to put them on their a$$ if they sprint down the lane even when Theo isn't on the court.
Rowsey...ugh. While Howard scored a lot and made some very tough shots, in my opinion he was pretty ugh too.
We're going to need an immediate impact point guard that can control the offense and get everyone involved next year. If we get that I'm very excited. If we don't I'm very worried (in the sense of I think we can be a top 15 team, but a lack of that will make us more of a 6-9 seed than a 3-6 seed).
We know what the defense is. That's not changing. So I'm more concerned about the offense. Just too much hero ball from Rowsey and Howard. I've said it before, I'll say it again. If one of the two of them want to completely dominate the ball all game, I'm more than happy to watch him go for 30 while the rest of the team goes for 40 total if I’m gameplanning against MU. The ball needs to move. MU can spread the heck out of defenses. But it doesn't matter if one guy is dribbling with his head down the entire possession. The ball moves faster through the air than off the bounce.
-
We know what the defense is. That's not changing. So I'm more concerned about the offense.
This is unfair as I agree with almost everything you said. As I sit here rewatching the game, though, the halftime analysis on FS1 is about the MU's complete lack of defense in the paint. X with 60 PIP + FTM, shooting 60% from two for the game. Rerun
Every team I watch has and sends three defenders to or near the paint on dribble drive or the base defense, except Marquette. Every Pomeroy best defensive team builds their defense from the baseline out. Again, I continually hear on Scoop about the "New Age Defense", where offenses are built from the outside in nowadays as should defenses.
MU's four best big game defensive games-Seton Hall, DePaul, Georgetown and Wisconsin, collosped on the paint. All victories. But, MU actually "changed" things: They went and protected the paint. It's insanity then to go back to the base scheme Wojo employs for the rest of the BE games where he pressures the perimeter first.
With that, I am out and at my local Arby's. I know the Scoop Intelligencia will call me out again, so I will be huffing the Horsey Sauce at Booth 1 just to get by. Onward ho with this crap defense. So glad Wojo spent a month just perfecting this base scheme preseason and guaranteeing a team that will play "defense first" at last year's banquet.
#accountability
-
I know the concern about packing it in is that the other team will shoot over the guards. I'll take that as opposed to continually getting a dunk/layup/kick out three off an unimpeded drive.
-
This is delicate territory.....I know... here come the wuss comments.
After 6 years of taking care of my folks and watching their health decline, and then losing both of them this year, it has been a trying time for me. After Xmas, I took the past month and went down to Florida to decompress. It was a great time, and something I needed.
Well, upon returning home I got the bug that's been going around, and have been also fighting the blues. Sometimes, things don't go as planned, and it's easy for a person, coach, or team to get really down after a rough patch and maybe even overdue it physically and mentally to get that winning mojo back. This time of year, with health being so fragile, I hope we take the right tack.
Throw this one out. As a horse trainer would say, "draw a line through that race." The last thing a winning conditioner does is overwork and punish a class horse. And yes, as a unit, we are still a class steed. Get that animal's mind right...healthy and fresh again. Our guys know they kind of embarrassed the Marquette brand a bit. The staff has 3 days to prepare for V. The players will be ready. Can't wait to watch the race Sunday.
We have some cheap speed and can run a ways if not pressured, but if a class horse looks us in the eye, we spit the bit.
-
3 good things about this game:
a) Froling made a 3
b) Young guys got some serious run in the 2nd half and we only lost the 2nd half by 1
c) we didn't give Nova anything to scout
-
We have some cheap speed and can run a ways if not pressured, but if a class horse looks us in the eye, we spit the bit.
Maybe so.
But we have shown an ability to make up multiple lengths late on quality competition. Tonight, we were slow from the gate, but spinning our wheels against a monster on a sealed track after a significant layoff.
Don't overlook our hidden running lines. Nova is a helluva hoss, but may have some inflated Beyers in its PP's. Jay is the best in the business, and I'm not saying the front wraps are going on 'Nova, but MU had better not show one ounce of pity for the Booth injury. We are NOT the team that wandered Cintas tonight. Where is the $50 window?
-
Laying an egg like this with 9 days to prepare no es bueno. That said, a L is a L by 1 or by 20 so let's see how they put this behind them and respond with Nova.
-
Start beating the drum like you did for Buzz, willie. Maybe the next coach will be as big of an improvement over Wojo as Wojo was over Buzz.
Assuming there isn't a mass exodus, next year MU will be bigger, stronger, and deeper.
Yeah, you are right, there is always next year, which people say a lot here. Yes, we can look forward to more beating of the drum for middle of the pack BEAST mediocrity. I prefer to see good results, not the debacle we just witnessed, which occuR's a lot under Wojo. He can recruit, that's it. Oh
And win every day, aina?
-
To much season yet to pull out the towels and start crying. There is a Dance to make. While not a go to lineup, I do like 2 of the 3 bigs in at a time when the situation calls for it. One thing of concern, without Howard yesterday, the difference in the score would been 40 points or more.
-
There was a good article a couple of weeks ago on teams defending Steph Curry's PnR. Basically teams used to double and trap out of the screen. The Warriors adjusted by having Draymond set the screen, have curry get him the ball and he became a 4 on 3 point forward. Now NBA teams have adjusted: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_2CtHOF3SAw
The reason is that the curry off the high screen 3 is a lower % shot than the layups and corner 3s they were getting from the doubling of him.
I thought Donny Marshall was wrong at halftime. Videos of guys running at shooters doesn't show lack of effort. Those guys were helping someone coming down the lane and then trying to run out at the guy shooting the 3.
-
So glad Wojo spent a month just perfecting this base scheme preseason and guaranteeing a team that will play "defense first" at last year's banquet.
#accountability
This is unfair as we do play defense first since we never win the tip.
-
As a couple other Scoopers said, this was simply a stinker.
Defense, offense - we sucked. (Especially defense.) That it happened on the road against a top-10 team made being competitive impossible. As John Fox said during his Panthers days: "We picked a bad game to have a bad game." (And he would know, as they had dozens of 'em.)
I hope even the Scowlin' Scoopers (our version of Debbie Downers) are willing to admit/remember that even some of our very good to great teams of Buzz and Crean vintage had games like this. For example, Buzz's E8 team lost at Florida by 33 freakin' points! I won't list them all, but there were plenty of others.
Now ... even I will be down-down-down if Sam is hurt bad enough to miss games.
I didn't start watching this one until the second half because I had a game of my own (our ladies won by 40 to improve to 18-1, thanks for asking), and I couldn't figure out why Sam wasn't playing. I mean, he was on the bench, in uniform, standing during timeouts - usually injured players aren't doing that. I guess we'll find out more soon.
I think your ladies could win by 40 against our defense. All complaining aside, even if we could hold a team to around 50% fg we could win a few games.
-
That was a terrible game from Rowsey. I saw his first two passes were weak and almost picked. At that point, I immediately knew it wasn’t in him tonight. We need his fire.
-
1. Top 10 team in their gym. Bigger, stronger, faster, deeper, more experienced. Sometimes, that is all there is to it.
2. Their defense on our shooters was good, MU's defense is bad.
3. Things went so bad that Markus even missed free throws.
4. Vent away.
5. It isn't going to get easier.
No.2 should be in bold.
-
Our game against DePaul was awful. We had 9 days to prep and then get destroyed at X. Wojo needs to get the guys to focus again. Not sure if the grind of the BEast is wearing on on they guys are what.
-
Don't tink Froling makin' a 3 is a good thin'. Actually, knot takin' 'em wood bee bedder. MU kneads an ass kicka 'round da rim, knot another jackerupper, aina?
-
I really appreciated Froling's work on the glass tonight. He does a good job getting position and using his wingspan.
-
I really appreciated Froling's work on the glass tonight. He does a good job getting position and using his wingspan.
I noticed this too. Doesn't totally make up for his defensive ineptitude but I really hope that comes with time. Thought Harry looked good outside of his obvious defensive lapses last night.
-
Don't tink Froling makin' a 3 is a good thin'. Actually, knot takin' 'em wood bee bedder. MU kneads an ass kicka 'round da rim, knot another jackerupper, aina?
Harry has a nose for rebounds. That can’t be taught. I prefer to see him exploiting his strength that way.
-
Don't tink Froling makin' a 3 is a good thin'. Actually, knot takin' 'em wood bee bedder. MU kneads an ass kicka 'round da rim, knot another jackerupper, aina?
Depends what position he is playing. If he is at the 5, I would agree. If he is playing at the 4 (as he was after Sam got hurt), its ok as it helps spread the floor just as Sam does.
-
This is unfair as we do play defense first since we never win the tip.
I chuckled
-
Why are people harping on the "9 days" thing? Having nine days to prepare for someone doesn't mean you are going to be better than them. They could have had 3 days or two weeks and the result would have been the same.
Regardless, this isn't a preparation issue. This is a incomplete team issue. People get on Howard and Rowsey for chucking it up, but really if Sam is out of the game, what other options are there? There is no reliable interior scoring. No one can really put it on the floor and take it to the basket with any consistency.
This is why I said at the beginning of the year that NIT was the likely outcome. This team is way too incomplete to win consistently in the BE.
-
Harry has a nose for rebounds. That can’t be taught. I prefer to see him exploiting his strength that way.
He needs to play more. Matt's stat line of mostly zero's night in and night out is not helping.
-
This is delicate territory.....I know... here come the wuss comments.
After 6 years of taking care of my folks and watching their health decline, and then losing both of them this year, it has been a trying time for me. After Xmas, I took the past month and went down to Florida to decompress. It was a great time, and something I needed.
Well, upon returning home I got the bug that's been going around, and have been also fighting the blues. Sometimes, things don't go as planned, and it's easy for a person, coach, or team to get really down after a rough patch and maybe even overdue it physically and mentally to get that winning mojo back. This time of year, with health being so fragile, I hope we take the right tack.
Throw this one out. As a horse trainer would say, "draw a line through that race." The last thing a winning conditioner does is overwork and punish a class horse. And yes, as a unit, we are still a class steed. Get that animal's mind right...healthy and fresh again. Our guys know they kind of embarrassed the Marquette brand a bit. The staff has 3 days to prepare for V. The players will be ready. Can't wait to watch the race Sunday.
Great post. Glad to hear you're bouncing back after a turbulent year.
-
This team is way too incomplete to win consistently in the BE.
This applies to every team, but Nova and Xavier this year. This conference ain't for the faint of heart.
-
He needs to play more. Matt's stat line of mostly zero's night in and night out is not helping.
I mean that's fine and all but he's not going to help the team improve on the defensive side of the ball.
-
Wasn't expecting a victory, but not a beatdown.
FYI, Goodin was a top 70 recruit, who actually developed and Scruggs was a top 40 recruit who will be a nice player. They both had major roles in the win.
Congrats to Bluett for 2,000 points and for Rowsey telling him congrats, nice gesture. Remember Fox or ESPN did a segment on him and family, very good kid.
I know some like Heldt for his energy, enthusiasm, etc., but my goodness he has been terrible. Don't care about energy, need some b-ball ability. He now has 21 points in eight BE games, nine of which came in one game. He has one field goal in last three games. Time to play Theo and Froling, with Heldt third string.
Wouldn't want to be on that plane headed to MKE.
X had had our number last few years, that will change since they lose Bluett, Macura, Kanter and O'Mara.
Did X have our number when we swept them last year?
-
Did X have our number when we swept them last year?
No. But both teams are different this year.
-
It's not a good loss obviously, but it's also not deserving of chicken littling either. This is the first performance in conference play that you can same MU just didn't play well. There are potentially reasons for that which makes this a nothing burger or it is indicative of the team over performing to date and this is a start of the under performing but we don't know either way at this point. Based on everything I've seen to date, I have no reason to believe this game was anything other than an outlier.
From an NCAA tournament bid standpoint nothing changes with this result. Getting a win this week against either X or Nova would be great but it is absolutely not required by any stretch of the imagine.
#RespectTheProcess
-
Good comment on switching out Heldt for Theo. I still go back to the thought of just foul somebody super hard. Soon as guy comes into dunk then just lay one on him. Knock him to the ground. Line up for the free throws. At least make them think about it instead of thinking. . .sweet, another dunk! I would much rather see one of the 10 fouls between Heldt and Theo used for that and send a message instead of on an illegal screen or bumping somebody on the hip helping a guard. Bring the nasty for once!
Either way, I see Heldt as a third string bring the energy guy. The fact that he is starting yet. . . does it say something about the others practice habits? Oh, and to add the 'next year' comments. . .think of Theo John, Morrow, and J Hauser replacing Heldt. There you go! Also one less selfish chucker in Rowsey gone.
-
Good comment on switching out Heldt for Theo. I still go back to the thought of just foul somebody super hard. Soon as guy comes into dunk then just lay one on him. Knock him to the ground. Line up for the free throws. At least make them think about it instead of thinking. . .sweet, another dunk! I would much rather see one of the 10 fouls between Heldt and Theo used for that and send a message instead of on an illegal screen or bumping somebody on the hip helping a guard. Bring the nasty for once!
Either way, I see Heldt as a third string bring the energy guy. The fact that he is starting yet. . . does it say something about the others practice habits? Oh, and to add the 'next year' comments. . .think of Theo John, Morrow, and J Hauser replacing Heldt. There you go! Also one less selfish chucker in Rowsey gone.
Remember, Erik Williams started for a number of games over Jae Crowder. Total minutes matter way more than who starts.
-
It's not a good loss obviously, but it's also not deserving of chicken littling either. This is the first performance in conference play that you can same MU just didn't play well.
Disagree with that. They've been largely bad since the Hall game.
-
So next year we only lose Rowsey, which is a gain on the defensive end. Anyone have any insight into the defense of the guys we have coming in next year? Joey, Morrow, Bailey, Eke
-
Disagree with that. They've been largely bad since the Hall game.
Not sure how you can say that: O against Butler was great, D was bad and the reverse was true against DePaul. Besides the DePaul game was a Milton Berle game. If you want to make the argument that Rowsey has been bad since the Hall game, I will listen to that.
-
Why are people harping on the "9 days" thing? Having nine days to prepare for someone doesn't mean you are going to be better than them. They could have had 3 days or two weeks and the result would have been the same.
Couldn't have described Too Tan Tommy's coachin' any better myself, hey?
-
So next year we only lose Rowsey, which is a gain on the defensive end. Anyone have any insight into the defense of the guys we have coming in next year? Joey, Morrow, Bailey, Eke
They're all rangy and long. That should help.
Good comment on switching out Heldt for Theo. I still go back to the thought of just foul somebody super hard. Soon as guy comes into dunk then just lay one on him. Knock him to the ground. Line up for the free throws. At least make them think about it instead of thinking. . .sweet, another dunk! I would much rather see one of the 10 fouls between Heldt and Theo used for that and send a message instead of on an illegal screen or bumping somebody on the hip helping a guard. Bring the nasty for once!
Agreed. If you're going to foul, foul hard. Make him make his free throws. I like the idea of starting Theo and letting him set the tone down in the paint early. He isn't a great defender yet, but he is physical and isn't afraid to knock someone over. We need more of that. Matt is far too timid in the paint.
-
X's frosh are bigger than most of our guys. The only guy coming in next year to have some muscle is Morrow.
-
X's frosh are bigger than most of our guys. The only guy coming in next year to have some muscle is Morrow.
Joey will have 8 months of Todd Smith when he suits up for MU and Brandon Bailey will have 4 months of Todd Smith....along with Morrow they will be meater than we've been and that doesn't count Elliot and Cain filling out.
-
How come our defense sucks every year
-
How come our defense sucks every year
Marquette's defense has pretty much sucked since Deane left. There were a couple of years under Buzz where it ended up better than it seemed when watching individual games. But Crean couldn't coach defense. Buzz's rotations were so complicated that some freshmen could not grasp them. And they broke down and led to lay ups, too.
-
How come our defense sucks every year
Because we play 2 players under 6 foot 30 MPG. And outside of Theo, our frontcourt players are not intimidating.
Defense SHOULD be much improved next season.
-
4ever,
I agree with Froling making a three as a bad thing. I wish he never would shoot another one. Get that big body down low and see what happens.
Said after the first X game, I think they are really, really good. I disagree with Lenny, I think they are legit top 10 team this year.
-
4ever,
I agree with Froling making a three as a bad thing. I wish he never would shoot another one. Get that big body down low and see what happens.
Said after the first X game, I think they are really, really good. I disagree with Lenny, I think they are legit top 10 team this year.
I just can't agree with this about Froling. The coaches clearly believe he is a 35%+ 3P shooter or they wouldn't be letting him hoist those shots. After he knocked one down yesterday, he got the ball on the right wing, pump faked and got his guy in the air, and drove to the hoop for a layup. That's a dimension that none of our other bigs have. If he can take and make some 3s it adds another option to our offense.
-
4ever,
I agree with Froling making a three as a bad thing. I wish he never would shoot another one. Get that big body down low and see what happens.
Said after the first X game, I think they are really, really good. I disagree with Lenny, I think they are legit top 10 team this year.
Froling is not a banger nor is he an intimidating interior presence. He's being utilized correctly IMO to space the floor, create driving lanes and pull the other team's big away from the basket.
-
Froling is only taking 0-2 threes most games. He took 5 in his first game and 3 last night. The guy isn't hoisting from three every time he gets the ball, and him being on the perimeter gives him another angle to pass from, which is probably his most effective offensive skill so far. I don't think he's going to start putting up 5-7 threes just because he made one. Regardless, if he's able to occasionally hit one, even at a 25-30% clip, teams have to respect him out there. That helps everyone.
-
I'd prefer these tall dudes learn the game from the inside to the perimeter. Thon Maker does the same thing with the Bucks. Maybe its an Australian thing, hey?
-
Disagree with that. They've been largely bad since the Hall game.
I don't remember the exact number but prior to last night Bartovik had as us a top 20 team over the previous 5 games. We had been playing very well.
-
Froling is not a banger nor is he an intimidating interior presence. He's being utilized correctly IMO to space the floor, create driving lanes and pull the other team's big away from the basket.
I completely disagree with this. The few times Froling musters up the courage to bang in the paint he usually gets to where he wants to (that might be what impresses me most about his [still developing] game). I want to see more of it.
-
How come our defense sucks every year
Depends on your definition of "sucks." In Wojo's first year we had a top 75 defense. In the second year, we had a top 100. Neither great but defenses you could win with (it was our offenses that sucked). The past two years we have an elite offense and an awful defense. Why? See Rowsey, Andrew and Howard, Markus. They are to defense what Derrick Wilson was to offense....they make all of their teammates worse just by being on the court.
-
I completely disagree with this. The few times Froling musters up the courage to bang in the paint he usually gets to where he wants to (that might be what impresses me most about his [still developing] game). I want to see more of it.
Personally, I don't usually think anything good is going to happen when he gets the ball in the post and tries to back his guy down. He's improving, but more often than not he seems to get bumped off his move and throws up a terrible off-balance prayer, which is why I say I don't think he's a banger. He does have a nice ability to pass from the post.
-
Why are people harping on the "9 days" thing?
I'm not hung up or gave it a thought. That said, you would think with 9 days of preparation they would put up a fight.
-
Because we play 2 players under 6 foot 30 MPG.
Don't think Wojo is gonna buy that a guy under 6 feet can't play solid D....
-
Don't think Wojo is gonna buy that a guy under 6 feet can't play solid D....
But two of them? On the court at the same time? Its a disaster.
Height is one of their main deterrents defensively, but they're also just not good defenders. There are plenty of dudes under 6 feet that can play d. They unfortunate aren't in that group. Hoping Markus can improve in that regard as an upperclassman.
-
Personally, I don't usually think anything good is going to happen when he gets the ball in the post and tries to back his guy down. He's improving, but more often than not he seems to get bumped off his move and throws up a terrible off-balance prayer, which is why I say I don't think he's a banger. He does have a nice ability to pass from the post.
This is correct. He doesn't get to where he wants to be. When he has his back to the basket, generally speaking he has already decided on putting up a shot regardless of where he gets to and regardless of whether it is a schoolyard brick. We've seen him get manhandled while trying to back his man down and unable to recognize the sub-5% chance of making the shot.
I think it would be a huge weapon if he had the ability to back his man down, recognize it ain't happening, and hit a driver on the run or kick out on the double team. This would be a big development for him and potentially fill a void in the offense currently occupied by Heldt. Heldt has strong decision-making skills and displays the ability to execute these sequences... The only issue is that since he can't even threaten offensive ability, teams don't work too hard to collapse on him or concern themselves. All that said, as of today Heldt is still a far better fit in the overall gameplan than Harry because the team needs strong decision-making offensively, in order to primarily focus on finding a good shot for one of Howard/Rowsey/Hauser.
Harry has a relatively smooth looking offensive game on TV but it doesn't functionally add up to much today.
-
But two of them? On the court at the same time? Its a disaster.
Height is one of their main deterrents defensively, but they're also just not good defenders. There are plenty of dudes under 6 feet that can play d. They unfortunate aren't in that group. Hoping Markus can improve in that regard as an upperclassman.
My point is simply that you don't need to be 6 feet tall to be a good defender.
-
Because we play 2 players under 6 foot 30 MPG. And outside of Theo, our frontcourt players are not intimidating.
Defense SHOULD be much improved next season.
6 foot? Probably more like 5'10"! You can't have 40% of your team on the floor at one time be terrible defenders under 5'10" and wonder why your team's defense stinks. They work hard it seems on defense. . . just too small!
I agree with the other poster. I would like to see Theo John set the tone from the start of the game. I would rather see that then the Erik Williams/Jae Crowder starter minutes comparison. Harry is a good rebounds and keeps a lot of possessions alive.
-
My point is simply that you don't need to be 6 feet tall to be a good defender.
Understood.
-
6 foot? Probably more like 5'10"! You can't have 40% of your team on the floor at one time be terrible defenders under 5'10" and wonder why your team's defense stinks. They work hard it seems on defense. . . just too small!
I agree with the other poster. I would like to see Theo John set the tone from the start of the game. I would rather see that then the Erik Williams/Jae Crowder starter minutes comparison. Harry is a good rebounds and keeps a lot of possessions alive.
I remember making the NCAA tournament with a 5'6 PG and 6' SG while starting a 6'5 C. Teamed seemed pretty good defensively. Maybe the ability to teach is the difference.
-
Regardless of height (how about that?) you can't have 40% of the team on the floor be terrible defenders
-
Last night was still not as embarrassing as being down to Vandy 37-8 with 10min to go in the first half on our own floor 7 yrs ago or whenever that was. That was rock bottom, despite the fact that I think we made sweet 16 that year.
-
I remember making the NCAA tournament with a 5'6 PG and 6' SG while starting a 6'5 C. Teamed seemed pretty good defensively. Maybe the ability to teach is the difference.
Agree. We have the height and talent but don't defend. It seems to be terrible coaching. We couldn't defend the rim. We can't stop a layup. Wojo needs to concentrate on defense to allow this team to win.
Look at how effective Xavier was stopping Sam and Andrew. We can't stop the last guy off the Xavier bench from scoring.
-
This is correct. He doesn't get to where he wants to be. When he has his back to the basket, generally speaking he has already decided on putting up a shot regardless of where he gets to and regardless of whether it is a schoolyard brick. We've seen him get manhandled while trying to back his man down and unable to recognize the sub-5% chance of making the shot.
I think it would be a huge weapon if he had the ability to back his man down, recognize it ain't happening, and hit a driver on the run or kick out on the double team. This would be a big development for him and potentially fill a void in the offense currently occupied by Heldt. Heldt has strong decision-making skills and displays the ability to execute these sequences... The only issue is that since he can't even threaten offensive ability, teams don't work too hard to collapse on him or concern themselves. All that said, as of today Heldt is still a far better fit in the overall gameplan than Harry because the team needs strong decision-making offensively, in order to primarily focus on finding a good shot for one of Howard/Rowsey/Hauser.
Harry has a relatively smooth looking offensive game on TV but it doesn't functionally add up to much today.
I fully agree with this. I was watching the Spurs the other day and LaMarcus Aldridge really demonstrates this ability well. When his teammates feed him in the post, he has the capability of either turning around and making the jumper or passing out to an open driver or shooter. That turnaround jumper is a really high percentage shot and gives their offense more options.
-
Regardless of height (how about that?) you can't have 40% of the team on the floor be terrible defenders
This is the most correct statement.
Sure height makes being a good defender more difficult, but chalking our issues up to height is wrong. Howard and Rowsey are terrible defender, regardless of height. If they were 6"6 and had their same defensive skills they would still be terrible defenders. Having them on the defensive end of the floor is like having two Derrick Wilsons on the offensive end of the floor. There is no scheme, no coaching that could turn this team into a quality defensive squad without significantly hampering the offense. Now that's not to say the defense is as good as it could be, I'm sure there are other coaches who could get a little more defensive ability out of them. But the ceiling for this squad's defense (without significantly harming the offense) is probably around a 90-115th ranked defense.
Now, who is responsible for recruiting and developing defensive talent? Wojo. He's failing in that regard but has been making up for it by being one of the best offensive coaches (if not the best) that we have ever had. The result appears to be a bubble team. We can gnash our teeth as much we want but there is no magic fix that is going to improve our defense without harming our offense midseason. Just be thankful we don't have the opposite problem. At least we are exciting to watch.
Now this whole elite offense terrible defense bubble team thing is fine this season. But this is the last season where that is true. Wojo sold the university on a 5 year plan with year 5 being a team capable of making a deep tournament run while also having a foundation for several consecutive years of success. If the defense is like this next season, it doesn't matter how good the offense is, he won't have fulfilled his promise.
-
Even Mike Dean had decent D with a lot less talent.
We need to play better D. But Mike Deane never coached in the third-toughest conference in the country.
-
We need to play better D. But Mike Deane never coached in the third-toughest conference in the country.
YOU WATCH YOUR MOUTH! I'D LIKE TO SEE YOU NAVIGATE THE RED, WHITE AND BLUE DIVISIONS. Wojo only has to coach in ONE division.
-
Regardless of height (how about that?) you can't have 40% of the team on the floor be terrible defenders
Bingo.
-
Do you remember Jake and Derrick? They could play defense just fine. Everybody complained about them.
I did this on the other board and got no response, so I will try it here.
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey. Pretend it says 'Baylor', or 'Boston College', or 'Northwestern'. Now, all you know about the team this year at one of those three schools is...
-they have 9 scholarship players
-their two starting guards and highest scorers are <6'.
- their roster is made up of 1 senior, 1 junior, 4 sophomores, 3 (outside the top 100) freshmen.
No background. Not who transferred in or out. What the coach's reputation is.
What would you expect that team's record to be in the Big 12/ACC/Big 10?
Please apply the same objective expectations to this team.
-
Now, who is responsible for recruiting and developing defensive talent? Wojo. He's failing in that regard but has been making up for it by being one of the best offensive coaches (if not the best) that we have ever had. The result appears to be a bubble team. We can gnash our teeth as much we want but there is no magic fix that is going to improve our defense without harming our offense midseason. Just be thankful we don't have the opposite problem. At least we are exciting to watch.
In fairness to Wojo, our perimeter defense would likely be better if not for Haanif’s family issue. We certainly wouldn’t be great or even really good at team defense, but he would have helped a lot.
-
Do you remember Jake and Derrick? They could play defense just fine. Everybody complained about them.
I did this on the other board and got no response, so I will try it here.
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey. Pretend it says 'Baylor', or 'Boston College', or 'Northwestern'. Now, all you know about the team this year at one of those three schools is...
-they have 9 scholarship players
-their two starting guards and highest scorers are <6'.
- their roster is made up of 1 senior, 1 junior, 4 sophomores, 3 (outside the top 100) freshmen.
No background. Not who transferred in or out. What the coach's reputation is.
What would you expect that team's record to be in the Big 12/ACC/Big 10?
Please apply the same objective expectations to this team.
Trying to reason with the trolls, now. Not sure how successful it will be.
-
Just saying... MU's 3 road losses are to teams that are 31-1 at home so far this season.
-
This is correct. He doesn't get to where he wants to be. When he has his back to the basket, generally speaking he has already decided on putting up a shot regardless of where he gets to and regardless of whether it is a schoolyard brick. We've seen him get manhandled while trying to back his man down and unable to recognize the sub-5% chance of making the shot.
I think it would be a huge weapon if he had the ability to back his man down, recognize it ain't happening, and hit a driver on the run or kick out on the double team. This would be a big development for him and potentially fill a void in the offense currently occupied by Heldt. Heldt has strong decision-making skills and displays the ability to execute these sequences... The only issue is that since he can't even threaten offensive ability, teams don't work too hard to collapse on him or concern themselves. All that said, as of today Heldt is still a far better fit in the overall gameplan than Harry because the team needs strong decision-making offensively, in order to primarily focus on finding a good shot for one of Howard/Rowsey/Hauser.
Harry has a relatively smooth looking offensive game on TV but it doesn't functionally add up to much today.
I can distinctly remember two plays where Froling starts outside the paint and backs his way into the paint against a defender bigger or equal in size with rather decent control and puts up a high-percentage shot. Other times, it does not work out as well. Point being, he's capable. He needs to keep working on it in games. Heldt is a complete liability out there - yes, I'm sure he's smart, but so is Einstein and he would not have been a capable 5 on a D1 program (at least, I don't think). As we have always said, Heldt is a serviceable back-up to spell the starter/second string for 5-10 minutes per game. To say that Heldt is better out there because of his "strong decision making skills" is just wrong unless those skills have a substantive impact on the game. We have seen time and again that they do not. You MUST roll with Froling to relieve pressure off the big 3 and hope that he continues to develop.
And obviously nothing personal with Matt - strictly basketball related.
-
I can distinctly remember two plays where Froling starts outside the paint and backs his way into the paint against a defender bigger or equal in size with rather decent control and puts up a high-percentage shot. Other times, it does not work out as well. Point being, he's capable. He needs to keep working on it in games. Heldt is a complete liability out there - yes, I'm sure he's smart, but so is Einstein and he would not have been a capable 5 on a D1 program (at least, I don't think). As we have always said, Heldt is a serviceable back-up to spell the starter/second string for 5-10 minutes per game. To say that Heldt is better out there because of his "strong decision making skills" is just wrong unless those skills have a substantive impact on the game. We have seen time and again that they do not. You MUST roll with Froling to relieve pressure off the big 3 and hope that he continues to develop.
And obviously nothing personal with Matt - strictly basketball related.
Not quite sure how they must roll with Froling, seems a little drastic. IDK about it being personal.
The obvious point I was trying to make was that the big 3 are, on balance, incredibly talented offensively, heads and shoulders above all other players on the team, and that they account for the vast majority of our points. Like it or not, when they are all on the floor, you don't really want bad shots by bad offensive players taking valuable opportunities away from those 3. Note: Harry is shooting 37% from the floor and 13% from 3. Many of those 3s were wide open looks.
If Froling could focus on only taking higher percentage shots and facilitating instead of forcing a shot on extreme low percentage shots, he'd be an upgrade over Heldt. We all agree on that I think. That's why I say that decision-making is the difference between the two, offensively.
Look at it this way: Matt Heldt could probably shoot 13% from 3. But he knows better and he focuses on things besides scoring.
I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.
-
Not quite sure how they must roll with Froling, seems a little drastic. IDK about it being personal.
The obvious point I was trying to make was that the big 3 are, on balance, incredibly talented offensively, heads and shoulders above all other players on the team, and that they account for the vast majority of our points. Like it or not, when they are all on the floor, you don't really want bad shots by bad offensive players taking valuable opportunities away from those 3. Note: Harry is shooting 37% from the floor and 13% from 3. Many of those 3s were wide open looks.
If Froling could focus on only taking higher percentage shots and facilitating instead of forcing a shot on extreme low percentage shots, he'd be an upgrade over Heldt. We all agree on that I think. That's why I say that decision-making is the difference between the two, offensively.
Look at it this way: Matt Heldt could probably shoot 13% from 3. But he knows better and he focuses on things besides scoring.
I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.
IDK about your IDK.
I don't think the rare instances of Froling taking a shot at this point in his career outweigh the pressure, I believe, he takes off the big three by being on the court, and that is only going to improve as he gets more run (again, I believe). Heldt is at his ceiling. Let's just see where Froling's is.
-
I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.
Yes, yes it is. Woof.
-
I'm not hung up or gave it a thought. That said, you would think with 9 days of preparation they would put up a fight.
Yeah, not necessarily hung up. But you would just hope that 9 days would have been ample time to come up with a game plan that could be executed in their sleep that doesn't lead to 51 first half points. I mean WTF were they doing in practice for the past nine days?
-
Trying to reason with the trolls, now. Not sure how successful it will be.
Very few are trolls. Many, if not most, are passionate MU fans who want so badly for MU to be great that they sometimes struggle with objectivity and perspective. Which is the nature of fandom. All I am asking is to look at the make up of the roster without bias. To remember a few years ago when we had a backcourt that was solid defensively but somehow still angered many. Don't lose your mind when this team gets rolled by a top 10 team in their building. This is not a final 4 team, barring an insane run. Make the dance this year. Build on it.
-
Do you remember Jake and Derrick? They could play defense just fine. Everybody complained about them.
I didn’t realize a player that can play both defense and offense is mutually exclusive.
-
Not quite sure how they must roll with Froling, seems a little drastic. IDK about it being personal.
The obvious point I was trying to make was that the big 3 are, on balance, incredibly talented offensively, heads and shoulders above all other players on the team, and that they account for the vast majority of our points. Like it or not, when they are all on the floor, you don't really want bad shots by bad offensive players taking valuable opportunities away from those 3. Note: Harry is shooting 37% from the floor and 13% from 3. Many of those 3s were wide open looks.
If Froling could focus on only taking higher percentage shots and facilitating instead of forcing a shot on extreme low percentage shots, he'd be an upgrade over Heldt. We all agree on that I think. That's why I say that decision-making is the difference between the two, offensively.
Look at it this way: Matt Heldt could probably shoot 13% from 3. But he knows better and he focuses on things besides scoring.
I'm also not addressing Froling's current deficiencies defensively, but that is a wholly different discussion.
With respect to Froling, You have outlined it well. This is the Big East and every possession is a battle. We need as much effectiveness from each position as possible to continue to compete well.
that said, I believe Froling adds value to the team in that he has a real nose for rebounds. That rebounding prowess is a skill that can't be taught. In addition Harry has some skills passing. With respect to this year ,and Mr. Froling, we have to build off of those skills. Matt and Theo have different skills and we build of off those skills as well. This year ,between the 3 young men, we can deliver competent play at the Center position.
-
With respect to Froling, You have outlined it well. This is the Big East and every possession is a battle. We need as much effectiveness from each position as possible to continue to compete well.
that said, I believe Froling adds value to the team in that he has a real nose for rebounds. That rebounding prowess is a skill that can't be taught. In addition Harry has some skills passing. With respect to this year ,and Mr. Froling, we have to build off of those skills. Matt and Theo have different skills and we build of off those skills as well. This year ,between the 3 young men, we can deliver competent play at the Center position.
Agree, one of the best rebounders we've had recently and I think there's reason to be hopeful for his future. A lot of big guys can't do what he's capable of, he could be a real curveball.
IDK about your IDK.
I don't think the rare instances of Froling taking a shot at this point in his career outweigh the pressure, I believe, he takes off the big three by being on the court, and that is only going to improve as he gets more run (again, I believe). Heldt is at his ceiling. Let's just see where Froling's is.
Rare instance? Froling's usage % is higher than Sam Hauser's.
-
i know that harry went 1-3 from 3 but instead of him shooting the ball outside the 3 point line i rather have him swing it or look to drive, hes 2-15 on the season from 3 and he does have a nice ball fake. im just saying i rather see him look to drive, pass , and if those aren't open look for the 3 ball
-
Don't lose your mind when this team gets rolled by a top 10 team in their building. THIS This is not a final 4 team, barring an insane run. THIS Make the dance this year. THIS Build on it. AND THIS
-
I didn’t realize a player that can play both defense and offense is mutually exclusive.
It's not always. It seems to be in this particular case. Which back court would you rather have? Derrick and Jake or Andrew and Markus.
Do you remember that there was a contingent that was irate that Buzz didn't give more time to JjJ and Deonte even though neither could play defense as a freshman? Do you remember that some wanted Dawson to get more minutes? Do you remember when some were furious about Blue getting as many minutes as he did when he couldn't shoot as a freshman, when Buzz rewarded defense?
The common theme? The coach is dumb for playing the people he is for the reasons he does. Rowsey and Howard are not good one on one defenders. However, to bench them means to force feed minutes to freshmen and to take one of the top scorers in the big east off the floor.
-
Do you remember Jake and Derrick? They could play defense just fine. Everybody complained about them.
I did this on the other board and got no response, so I will try it here.
Take 'Marquette' off the jersey. Pretend it says 'Baylor', or 'Boston College', or 'Northwestern'. Now, all you know about the team this year at one of those three schools is...
-they have 9 scholarship players
-their two starting guards and highest scorers are <6'.
- their roster is made up of 1 senior, 1 junior, 4 sophomores, 3 (outside the top 100) freshmen.
No background. Not who transferred in or out. What the coach's reputation is.
What would you expect that team's record to be in the Big 12/ACC/Big 10?
Please apply the same objective expectations to this team.
Every fanbase is going to expect more of their own. That being said, I occasionally look at the ACC standings to see how Danny Manning is doing. Back in the day, I would keep tabs on Mizzou / Quinn Snyder vs. TC.
But more than anything else, it's Year 4. I'm actually quite shocked at the lack of substantive progress. I get the horses are coming but Tom Crean took a Mike Deane program to the Final Four in year 4. I mean if Tom Crean can do that...
-
Every fanbase is going to expect more of their own. That being said, I occasionally look at the ACC standings to see how Danny Manning is doing. Back in the day, I would keep tabs on Mizzou / Quinn Snyder vs. TC.
But more than anything else, it's Year 4. I'm actually quite shocked at the lack of substantive progress. I get the horses are coming but Tom Crean took a Mike Deane program to the Final Four in year 4. I mean if Tom Crean can do that...
And then missed the tournament the two following years. We've improved every year under Wojo. We're probably better this year than last year despite graduating KR, LF, JJ, and losing HC and DW. We lost 5 contributors to last year's team and have 9 scholarship players, and we're as good as last year. Maybe the improvement isn't happening as quick as everyone would like, but it's there and still trending upwards.
-
Every fanbase is going to expect more of their own. That being said, I occasionally look at the ACC standings to see how Danny Manning is doing. Back in the day, I would keep tabs on Mizzou / Quinn Snyder vs. TC.
But more than anything else, it's Year 4. I'm actually quite shocked at the lack of substantive progress. I get the horses are coming but Tom Crean took a Mike Deane program to the Final Four in year 4. I mean if Tom Crean can do that...
Why do people think that Crean is a bad coach? Regardless, the big reason he got to the Final Four is because he landed the best damn player in program history.
-
And then missed the tournament the two following years. We've improved every year under Wojo. We're probably better this year than last year despite graduating KR, LF, JJ, and losing HC and DW. We lost 5 contributors to last year's team and have 9 scholarship players, and we're as good as last year. Maybe the improvement isn't happening as quick as everyone would like, but it's there and still trending upwards.
The fact that I'm citing TC as a measurement of progress should tell you exactly where we are.
-
The fact that I'm citing TC as a measurement of progress should tell you exactly where we are.
I don't get this, what standard of measurement are applying to Wojo that sets him behind TC or Buzz when you adjust based on the cupboard for each coach and the landscape(conference, basketball environment, etc)?
-
I don't get this, what standard of measurement are applying to Wojo that sets him behind TC or Buzz when you adjust based on the cupboard for each coach and the landscape(conference, basketball environment, etc)?
I'll never understand the cupboard storyline.
Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits. That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.
-
I'll never understand the cupboard storyline.
Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits. That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.
And how many of those were actually good enough to actually be one of the top 100 players in their class? And which coach brought in the ones that were? I got 3 for Wojo (Sam, M2N, Katin), and 1 for Buzz (Luke). I got four who weren't (JJJ, Duane, Haanif, Sandy). Who was the 9th?
But the argument really stems from the reality that Wojo took over a team that went 17-15, missed not only the tournament but also the NIT, lost 5 out of 6 of the players who led the team in minutes (and the one they kept was Derrick Wilson), had the former coach poach half the incoming recruiting class, and had 1/2 of the other players decommit (and it was the good one of the two).
Knowing all that, how could you say the cupboard wasn't bare?
-
I'll never understand the cupboard storyline.
Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits. That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.
First, recruiting services are notoriously off.
Second, pure talent is necessarily the differentiator....experience matters. See the chart below of KenPom experience rankings for years 2013-2018 for the teams you highlighted. Marquette is the bright red line that in the last 3 years has been universally the least experienced team in the league. The last time they were experienced? Wojo's first year when we had what was left of the Buzz team where I think there is no question that 2014 and 2015 lacked talent. Definition of cupboard bare. Wojo has been trying to fill those holes since.
Next year this chart looks considerably better as we'll have a ton of talent returning AND talent coming in.
-
I'll never understand the cupboard storyline.
Last year Marquette had 9 top-100 RSCI recruits. That's more than Butler, Creighton, Seton Hall, Xavier & Providence combined.
You know top 100 means nothing when they get to college. Congrats you put together a great high school team. I'll tell Buzz that Jamal Jones Steve Taylor and Erik Williams were also big east caliber players
-
You know top 100 means nothing when they get to college. Congrats you put together a great high school team. I'll tell Buzz that Jamal Jones and Erik Williams were also big east caliber players
This. Ranking really only matter for about the top 25 to 30, after that its not blind guessing, but there are countless occasions where players outside the top 100 are better than their ranking suggests. UW Madison thrived on finding such players
-
And how many of those were actually good enough to actually be one of the top 100 players in their class? And which coach brought in the ones that were? I got 3 for Wojo (Sam, M2N, Katin), and 1 for Buzz (Luke). I got four who weren't (JJJ, Duane, Haanif, Sandy). Who was the 9th?
But the argument really stems from the reality that Wojo took over a team that went 17-15, missed not only the tournament but also the NIT, lost 5 out of 6 of the players who led the team in minutes (and the one they kept was Derrick Wilson), had the former coach poach half the incoming recruiting class, and had 1/2 of the other players decommit (and it was the good one of the two).
Knowing all that, how could you say the cupboard wasn't bare?
A team that went 9-9 in conference with 2 double OT losses. If Wojo did that this year many of your would exclaim progress and rejoice.
My sour tone is because everyone is acting like we have these St John's, Gtown and Depaul wins in the bank. Fine, if those 5 come through then we're good. And I'll be wrong, I hope I am bc I care about MU hoops waaaaaaaaaay too much. But I sense this year will be a repeat of last where we lost a few we shouldn't have. 8-10 os not out of the realm of discussion. I'm nervous. We are terrible on defense. And our amazing offense can't always mask that.
-
And your proposed solution is........? You may very well be right. 10 games to go.
-
A team that went 9-9 in conference with 2 double OT losses. If Wojo did that this year many of your would exclaim progress and rejoice.
My sour tone is because everyone is acting like we have these St John's, Gtown and Depaul wins in the bank. Fine, if those 5 come through then we're good. And I'll be wrong, I hope I am bc I care about MU hoops waaaaaaaaaay too much. But I sense this year will be a repeat of last where we lost a few we shouldn't have. 8-10 os not out of the realm of discussion. I'm nervous. We are terrible on defense. And our amazing offense can't always mask that.
You're sort of right. I would be okay with that at 10-8. 9-9 I'm fine with but I wouldn't exclaim progress. And of course the biggest differences is that was a year with a terrible Big East, barely got 4 teams into the tournament and would have only got 3 if Providence didn't win the BET. That was also a senior laden team, not a team where 80% of the players are undersclassmen
-
A team that went 9-9 in conference with 2 double OT losses. If Wojo did that this year many of your would exclaim progress and rejoice.
My sour tone is because everyone is acting like we have these St John's, Gtown and Depaul wins in the bank. Fine, if those 5 come through then we're good. And I'll be wrong, I hope I am bc I care about MU hoops waaaaaaaaaay too much. But I sense this year will be a repeat of last where we lost a few we shouldn't have. 8-10 os not out of the realm of discussion. I'm nervous. We are terrible on defense. And our amazing offense can't always mask that.
9-9 in a conference that only sent four teams to the tournament....one of whom was in Dayton, another was an 11 seed who only got in because they won the BET, and the other two lost in the round of 32. And they went 8-5 in non-conference with the best win being against George Washington. Don't try to put lipstick on the pig. Wojo took over a garbage team that lost 5 of their top 6 players and 3/4 of the incoming freshmen.
We don't have St. John's, Gtown, or DePaul in the bag. Just like Nova, Providence, Seton Hall, Creighton don't have us in the bag. Lots of basketball to be played left. And once we get past Nova, we will have the four of five toughest games on the schedule out of the way.
-
And your proposed solution is........? You may very well be right. 10 games to go.
I don't have a solution. I don't advocate for firing Wojo. I'm just nervous / anxious.
-
Rare instance? Froling's usage % is higher than Sam Hauser's.
I'm guessing the sample size is way too small for HF to give that statistic much weight.