Providence fans will complain (it looked to me like Rowsey rolled that ball for a double dribble) but that game was called waaay too tightly for a Big East game, Anim being the most glaring victim. Hard to watch with all the baby-fouls being called -- Sam, Heldt, Rowsey, GE, and on the Providence side too. That's how 6th grade girls games should be called (or the Big 10), not Big East.
Wasn't a double. Anyone who thinks it was never played basketball
Agreed, I really try to stay away from hyperboles, but I think this was the touchiest game called I've ever seen, going both ways. Fouls were called way, way too easily for absolutely nothing. That offensive goal-tending call on Young was atrocious.
The BEAST - as a basketball conference - needs to make a contract with the best refs in the country and get full time professional referees. This will differentiate it from the crap that these old fat guys provide at present. Cooley should be livid - not about the double dribble (it wasn't) but about the game. Wojo should be even more animated. Any game in which 3 guys foul out was a poorly officiated game. I was watching Sacar closely because I like his defense. He maybe had one foul. For him to foul out after playing such good defense is an offense to basketball.
Third game in a row I've seen a clean block called for a foul. Greg got called tonight. Didn't think they called it even tonight on the blocking calls. Whatever, a win is a win
It was balanced on both sides, but yeah, that was a rough game to watch. Not sure how to play defense if they are going to call fouls like that.
When that guy was backing down rowsey and he got called, that was ridiculous.
Reffing was terrible. I thought it was very one sided to PCs favor.
I really wish the Big East would emphasize allowing the boys play. Its far less frustrating to have your team hurt by a no-call than screwed by endless ticky tack bs. It would also set the league apart from the rest of college basketball.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 03, 2018, 09:10:13 PM
Reffing was terrible. I thought it was very one sided to PCs favor.
I think it benefitted them a bit more, but we had a lot of dumb reach-ins and unnecessary contact.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 03, 2018, 09:13:42 PM
I think it benefitted them a bit more, but we had a lot of dumb reach-ins and unnecessary contact.
Sure, but also plenty of easy no calls and the ticky tack garbage. Felt like we get far less of those calls.
So the very best we can hope for as Big East fans is that the refs are equally bad against both teams. Nice
I thought MU got a few calls at the end that really helped the comeback. But yeah, some odd calls both ways.
Not a double dribble at all. That game was officiated beyond poorly! 2 or 3 fouls on Anim were bush league. Fouls on Rowsey and Hauser at the end of the game were atrocious. Can't begin to tell you how frustrating that crap is to watch.
Quote from: jonny09 on January 03, 2018, 09:26:04 PM
Not a double dribble at all. That game was officiated beyond poorly! 2 or 3 fouls on Anim were bush league. Fouls on Rowsey and Hauser at the end of the game were atrocious. Can't begin to tell you how frustrating that crap is to watch.
I thought it was a double dribble. It looked to me like he flipped it in the air from one hand to the other without hitting the ground in between as he was re-establishing the dribble. The replay was shown just once and quick but I thought when I saw it it could have been a double dribble. I could be wrong. Could have gone either way, but I would not have complained if they called it.
The complaining about the reffing is getting old. We foul a lot, often stupidly, sliding with our hands raised, etc. The reffing in college basketball in general is not too good, and if other teams adjust to it better than we do, you can't just constantly blame the refs.
Quote from: jonny09 on January 03, 2018, 09:26:04 PM
Not a double dribble at all. That game was officiated beyond poorly! 2 or 3 fouls on Anim were bush league. Fouls on Rowsey and Hauser at the end of the game were atrocious. Can't begin to tell you how frustrating that crap is to watch.
I thought it was a double dribble. It looked to me like he flipped it in the air from one hand to the other without hitting the ground in between as he was re-establishing the dribble. The replay was shown just once and quick but I thought when I saw it it could have been a double dribble. I could be wrong. Could have gone either way, but I would not have complained if they called it.
The complaining about the reffing is getting old. We foul a lot, often stupidly, sliding with our hands raised, etc. The reffing in college basketball in general is not too good, and if other teams adjust to it better than we do, you can't just constantly blame the refs.
The no call DD was close. Bad replay angle. However, I'll defer to Rowsey. If the ball was dead.....he would have picked it up and passed the ball. It wasn't absolutely necessary for him to keep dribbling.........especially if he had lost his dribble.
Email Stu Jackson nicely. He responds. That said, the new ref coop is off to a bad start.
I don't think it was a double dribble.
That being said, reffing at the college level is bad but tonight is was beyond atrocious and I think we got the short end of the stick.
The 4th foul on Rowsey, the late call on Sam called by a ref on the baseline 25 feet away instead of the ref right in front of the play, and most of the calls on Sacar were complete trash. And the amount of touch fouls were comical.
When I saw it live, I thought it was a double dribble. They only showed one replay, and even that was at full speed, so I don't really know. It wasn't called, so it's a non-issue.
I thought the game was poorly officiated, and I thought Marquette was on the wrong end of too many bad and/or ticky-tack calls. (I didn't see the first half. I turned the game on just in time to see Markus swish a 3 to start the second half.)
That being said, a good team has to play through bad officiating, especially on the road. I thought we persevered and showed a lot of mental toughness tonight.
Free Throws attempted: 41 to 16
Fouls called: 28 to 17
Quote from: BrewCity83 on January 04, 2018, 10:50:04 AM
Free Throws attempted: 41 to 16
Fouls called: 28 to 17
When one team attacks the basket and the other team shoots jumpers, you will always have that disparity regardless of the quality of the refs.
Quote from: Marquette4life on January 03, 2018, 09:02:00 PM
When that guy was backing down rowsey and he got called, that was ridiculous.
That's the one that really sticks out to me too. Literally bowling him over as Andrew backs up and he gets called for a foul? Just downright terrible. Players on offense get way too much leeway in the post.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 03, 2018, 09:17:10 PM
Sure, but also plenty of easy no calls and the ticky tack garbage. Felt like we get far less of those calls.
I don't disagree, but I don't think the refs were a deciding factor in this the way they were against Xavier. The disparity was bad, but most of those I was directing my "are you <bleeping> kidding me?!?" comments at our players and not say the refs.
Against Xavier, the refs were as much a factor as us missing good looks or failing to secure rebounds. Against PC, 95% of what happened to us was our own doing.
wasn't a double dribble-how many times do you see a dude walking the ball up the court, stop the dribble so he can scratch himself or make a play call or something and then just continue the dribble? same thing here, except the ball was just closer to the floor. it never stopped bouncing-the replay did clearly show that
Quote from: WarriorFan on January 03, 2018, 08:35:57 PM
The BEAST - as a basketball conference - needs to make a contract with the best refs in the country and get full time professional referees. This will differentiate it from the crap that these old fat guys provide at present. Cooley should be livid - not about the double dribble (it wasn't) but about the game. Wojo should be even more animated. Any game in which 3 guys foul out was a poorly officiated game. I was watching Sacar closely because I like his defense. He maybe had one foul. For him to foul out after playing such good defense is an offense to basketball.
Too many considerations to enumerate here, but I'll give you two (that are somewhat related to each other):
1) Pay. Before the breakup, referees made around $3,000 for a BE conference game but travel expenses were not reimbursed. For argument's sake, let's assume averages of $350 for a plane ticket, $200 for a hotel room/transportation and $75 for meals. The actual gross for a BE game would then be closer to $2,400. So let's assume a BE official grosses $2,500 per game in 2017 (accounting for inflation and the fact that a referee may not need a plane ticket for every game).
With up to four BE games occurring on any given day throughout the season, you'd need at minimum four crews but more reasonably, five. Considering that there are only 90 BE conference games (10 * 18 / 2) and 9 tournament games (2 + 4 + 2 + 1), each crew would work about 20 games/year, giving the officials a pay ceiling of $50,000. Bearing in mind that many officials hold rather lucrative, not to mention flexible, day jobs (attorneys, business owners, accountants, etc.), even if you doubled the pay, not many of those guys are going to give up their careers for $50,000-100,000/year. Maybe for a year or two, but not for the rest of their working years.
2) Workload. Back in c. 2012-13, among the top 200 D-I officials, the average games worked that season was in the mid-50s, with the top ten posting numbers in the 80's (Roger Ayers had something in the mid 90's). Think about that... the college hoops season is approx. 150 days long, and here you have your average official working a game 1 every 3 days and your top officials working almost 2 games every 3 days.
Circling back to #1, BE official pay is one of - if not - the highest in the NCAA. Other conferences pay less, low-major conference game pay might be in the hundreds, and NCAA tournament games are only $1,200 - 1,600 (with travel expenses included). So to get to 50-60 games, you're certainly not pulling the BE rate... but if you got all the top assignments, 60 games will likely get you a six-figure salary... not bad for five months of the year.
But if you've taken notice of D-I referees, they're not exactly recent graduates... in fact, I would estimate the average is upper 40's/early 50's, with more than a handful of guys perhaps in their 60's. I don't care how good of shape they're in, the human body is going to struggle to repair itself in 48 hours at that age. So your average official isn't giving 100% late in the season because their body is nowhere near 100%. Fatigue, aches, pains, etc... all of this affects the mind, so they're not going to be the sharpest when they're running up and down a basketball court for two hours every third day (not to mention the toll that travel takes on the body).
Although it may be counter-intuitive, perhaps more assignments/pay and professional officials is the opposite direction if the goal is better officiating. Instead, maybe conferences would be better off bringing in more officials for fewer games and instead of increasing the pay, invest more money in training/seminars/evaluations.
Quote from: Sultan of Kookiness on January 04, 2018, 10:55:26 AM
When one team attacks the basket and the other team shoots jumpers, you will always have that disparity regardless of the quality of the refs.
Yeah, we all know that's how you get to the line. But then why did Providence get 41 free throws while taking 43 2-point attempts while MU only got 16 free throws while taking 42 2-point attempts???
Theo went to the hole 7 times for no free throws. Sam took 9 2-pointers and got no free throws. Every Friar that took more than one 2-point shot went to the line. Look at the box score....https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2018-01-03-18-providence.html
I concede that MU actually commits too many fouls, but the game was not called evenly.
Quote from: BrewCity83 on January 04, 2018, 12:08:49 PM
Yeah, we all know that's how you get to the line. But then why did Providence get 41 free throws while taking 43 2-point attempts while MU only got 16 free throws while taking 42 2-point attempts???
Theo went to the hole 7 times for no free throws. Sam took 9 2-pointers and got no free throws. Every Friar that took more than one 2-point shot went to the line. Look at the box score....https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2018-01-03-18-providence.html
I concede that MU actually commits too many fouls, but the game was not called evenly.
Do you get angry when the opponent gets called for a minor or inconsequential foul? No, the thought never crosses your mind... It's just human behavior.
The game was called atrociously, but saying that it was called with a bias towards Providence is baby talk. Seriously.
College basketball has made a number of rule tweaks and emphasized certain things to reduce physical play and create better freedom of movement. Part of it was when Jay Bilas constantly griping about non-calls and poor officiating a few years back. It has made a for a lot more subjective calls and increased the influence of the referees. More ticky tack fouls, more whistles based on anticipation and generally more delays and free throws. Managing the foul situation has become much more critical for coaches.
Overall college basketball is less entertaining to me than it was 5 years ago due to these changes. I find myself starting to prefer NBA games as it doesn't seem to be as acute there. I'm hoping people will wake up and it changes back but I doubt it.
Anyone else catch the UNC game where Teddy V wouldn't even acknowledge the existence of the UNC player after he clearly missed a call. Terrible reffing around the country, not just MU games.
I've been to a lot of BE games in a number of cities, and have formed the perception that PC gets more than its share of home cooking. I thought last night was horrendous. Yet, the PC fan next to me thought that THEY were getting screwed. The MU fan behind me bitched about Matty's foul (I think his 4th), which could have served as a learning tool for what not to do defensively and was an obvious foul. There seems to be a perception bias at play. Well, despite all that, I don't think fouls would be such an issue if we played better D.
Quote from: Benny B on January 04, 2018, 12:04:46 PM
Too many considerations to enumerate here, but I'll give you two (that are somewhat related to each other):
1) Pay. Before the breakup, referees made around $3,000 for a BE conference game but travel expenses were not reimbursed. For argument's sake, let's assume averages of $350 for a plane ticket, $200 for a hotel room/transportation and $75 for meals. The actual gross for a BE game would then be closer to $2,400. So let's assume a BE official grosses $2,500 per game in 2017 (accounting for inflation and the fact that a referee may not need a plane ticket for every game).
With up to four BE games occurring on any given day throughout the season, you'd need at minimum four crews but more reasonably, five. Considering that there are only 90 BE conference games (10 * 18 / 2) and 9 tournament games (2 + 4 + 2 + 1), each crew would work about 20 games/year, giving the officials a pay ceiling of $50,000. Bearing in mind that many officials hold rather lucrative, not to mention flexible, day jobs (attorneys, business owners, accountants, etc.), even if you doubled the pay, not many of those guys are going to give up their careers for $50,000-100,000/year. Maybe for a year or two, but not for the rest of their working years.
2) Workload. Back in c. 2012-13, among the top 200 D-I officials, the average games worked that season was in the mid-50s, with the top ten posting numbers in the 80's (Roger Ayers had something in the mid 90's). Think about that... the college hoops season is approx. 150 days long, and here you have your average official working a game 1 every 3 days and your top officials working almost 2 games every 3 days.
Circling back to #1, BE official pay is one of - if not - the highest in the NCAA. Other conferences pay less, low-major conference game pay might be in the hundreds, and NCAA tournament games are only $1,200 - 1,600 (with travel expenses included). So to get to 50-60 games, you're certainly not pulling the BE rate... but if you got all the top assignments, 60 games will likely get you a six-figure salary... not bad for five months of the year.
But if you've taken notice of D-I referees, they're not exactly recent graduates... in fact, I would estimate the average is upper 40's/early 50's, with more than a handful of guys perhaps in their 60's. I don't care how good of shape they're in, the human body is going to struggle to repair itself in 48 hours at that age. So your average official isn't giving 100% late in the season because their body is nowhere near 100%. Fatigue, aches, pains, etc... all of this affects the mind, so they're not going to be the sharpest when they're running up and down a basketball court for two hours every third day (not to mention the toll that travel takes on the body).
Although it may be counter-intuitive, perhaps more assignments/pay and professional officials is the opposite direction if the goal is better officiating. Instead, maybe conferences would be better off bringing in more officials for fewer games and instead of increasing the pay, invest more money in training/seminars/evaluations.
I'm retired. I would ref games for a 100k and MU would get a lot of home cooking on those 50/50 calls.