It came up in the NBA thread. Which team in the last 40 years had the best chance to win it all? Final 4 team? KO's sweet 16 team? Crean's last team? Buzz's first, before DJ got hurt? Elite 8 team, if they could have got past Syracuse?
Feels like Buzz's first team, that DJ injury was crushing. You also have to account for the likelihood of Buzz physically exploding down the stretch which diminishes the chances.
The realistic answer is the 03 team if everyone gets hot for two more games.
08-09 if DJ and Otule don't get hurt. No Otule wouldn't have been huge to this team but it was painfully obvious they were tiny and having him for even small stretches would've helped.
12-13 if Otule doesn't get hurt I think was our best team but as another stated, the field was ridiculously hard that year. They weren't beating Kentucky.
02-03 I was too young but if they got pasted by KU I can't imagine they would've dominated Cuse unless Novak just shot over the zone the entire time
93-94 Sounds like a great team, and look good on the YouTube videos. but wasn't Arkansas ridiculously good that year? Like Kentucky in 11-12 good?
12-13 I had fun watching that team and they obviously captured some magic in the tournament but did anyone on here really feel that we were that good? I just feel like that team found magic ways to win but wasn't ever great.
I know we were a 6 seed but I loved our 2008 team. If it weren't for the Lopez brothers I think we could have gone on a run.
While I think MU's 2009 (pre DJ injury) and 2012 teams were better, I think the 2013 field wasn't as good.
2009 had that elite UNC team, plus a very solid Michigan State team to face in the semis.
2012 would have had MU facing a Louisville team that handled them a couple weeks prior in the BET, and then would have had to face by far Cal's best UK team.
If MU could have gotten past Syracuse in 2013, they had a Michigan team in the semis that I think they could have handled, and then Louisville. (Granted that Louisville team crushed them early in the year.)
Buzz's team dat couldn't solve SU's zone had potential ta live large. Teams from 1999-2008 didn't have a competent head coach, sew no shot der, ai na?
If that 2002-3 team had Odartey Blankson then they had the best chance. We already beat the best team in the tournament in Kentucky.
Imagine having Odartey that year. He was a really good defender, excellent in transition and could create his own shot. I know KU blew us out of the water but that team still had the best chance. Blankson's rebounding and defense would have been a big difference.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2018, 09:31:58 AM
Buzz's team dat couldn't solve SU's zone had potential ta live large.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 02, 2018, 09:10:22 AM
12-13 I had fun watching that team and they obviously captured some magic in the tournament but did anyone on here really feel that we were that good? I just feel like that team found magic ways to win but wasn't ever great.
I think its this team. I know the 2003 final four team only needed two more wins than it got vs three, but I think that Kansas team and Melo's Cuse is a taller ask than beating Boeheim's zone to 60, then those Michigan and L'ville teams. An all time roster to win the natty wasn't a requirement in 2013.
Man that game still bums me out if i think about it too long. That squad had a real 'team of destiny' feel to it after squeaking by Davidson then beating the hell out of Miami. Jamil should have absolutely been able to destroy that zone receiving entry passes at the free throw line, and it just didn't happen. IIRC, Davante ended up receiving those high post entries by the time the game was over.
I forgot which year it was, but I LOVED the team that lost to Florida in the S16. I had very very high hopes for that team. Maybe not an NC, but definitely a Final Four. I was "this close" to putting a lot of money on that team. (Thankfully I didn't)
While my mind is on that team, I was especially disappointed in that game. I remember thinking to myself that nobody wanted it. It's like the team gave up. They were satisfied with just being in the S16. Big Shot Todd was the only dude who put his heart out there for that game. Very uncharacteristic of a Bazz team.
I liked the 2011-12 team. The Florida loss was disappointing. The two things that held the team back were O'tule injury and also Davante was out a big part of the conference season and when he came back was not healthy. DJO and Jae were really in prime form.
Quote from: Eldon on January 02, 2018, 09:58:49 AM
I forgot which year it was, but I LOVED the team that lost to Florida in the S16. I had very very high hopes for that team. Maybe not an NC, but definitely a Final Four. I was "this close" to putting a lot of money on that team. (Thankfully I didn't)
While my mind is on that team, I was especially disappointed in that game. I remember thinking to myself that nobody wanted it. It's like the team gave up. They were satisfied with just being in the S16. Big Shot Todd was the only dude who put his heart out there for that game. Very uncharacteristic of a Bazz team.
The moment Missouri lost to Norfolk state I knew we weren't gonna get past Florida. Matchup nightmare. I was looking forward to seeing DJO go against Denmon and Crowder against Ratcliff the entire season.
Hank's first year (1977-78) was exactly 40 years ago so I believe it qualifies. We were ranked #2 entering the tournament and returned 3 starters (Butch, Boylan and Whitehead) and the 6th man (who played "starter's minutes" in Bernard Toone from Al's championship team. IMO this was the last MU team with a legit shot at the title.
The 08-09 team until Dominic got hurt. The 13 team against Syracuse..... Buzz had thrown his best wrinkle at Boeheim in the regular season with Davante and Chris in at the same time. Jim was ready for the rematch.
Quote from: MUBurrow on January 02, 2018, 09:57:22 AM
I think its this team. I know the 2003 final four team only needed two more wins than it got vs three, but I think that Kansas team and Melo's Cuse is a taller ask than beating Boeheim's zone to 60, then those Michigan and L'ville teams. An all time roster to win the natty wasn't a requirement in 2013.
Man that game still bums me out if i think about it too long. That squad had a real 'team of destiny' feel to it after squeaking by Davidson then beating the hell out of Miami. Jamil should have absolutely been able to destroy that zone receiving entry passes at the free throw line, and it just didn't happen. IIRC, Davante ended up receiving those high post entries by the time the game was over.
The thing was, when we beat them at the BC Davante shredded them from that spot all night. Maybe we could have adjusted but we didn't hit anything that night. We shot 22.6%
'08-'09 if James hadn't been injured. He had morphed into a dominant on-ball defender by that point. Boy, was that fun to watch.
'08-'09 team was pretty good and had chance to make some nice in March. Buzz's E8 team had a chance, IMO. They played with a chip on their shoulder and knew how to win.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2018, 10:44:29 AM
Hank's first year (1977-78) was exactly 40 years ago so I believe it qualifies. We were ranked #2 entering the tournament and returned 3 starters (Butch, Boylan and Whitehead) and the 6th man (who played "starter's minutes" in Bernard Toone from Al's championship team. IMO this was the last MU team with a legit shot at the title.
Guys, I don't think there has been a team since 1978 that could have gone all the way. And 1978 was more suspect than we let on.
We lost to Miami of Ohio, the pre-Bird/Johnson equivalent of a 16 seed. We had a great team that year but we lost Bo Ellis to graduation in 1977 and I do think that mattered enormously. Bernard Toone, Ulice Payne and Odell Ball didn't make up for Bo. Period. We could have and should have beaten Miami of Ohio, but Kentucky that year was really tough, as was Notre Dame and I believe Duke and UNC.
We never should have let MIami of Ohio get anywhere near us. The closest they should have been was 0-0.
The 2003 team played the game of their lives in Minneapolis. In fact, that probably was St. Al of Brookfield's first miracle on the way to sainthood. The fact that they played the game of their lives was evident a week later when they played Kansas and got manhandled. To expect that team to run the table would be the equivalent of last year's team winning the Big East after defeating Villanova in Milwaukee.
Other than these two teams, the only other team that could have and should have run the table was the 1970-1971 team, which was screwed out of their shot by a group of bigoted, biased referees in Athens, GA against Ohio State. The 1974 team got very close but notwithstanding St. Al's two technicals (he spent time in Purgatory for that one), I question whether we would have beaten North Carolina State. David Thompson was incredible.
With the exception of the 1978 and 2003 teams, nobody was even close in the post-Al era.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 02, 2018, 12:37:24 PM
Guys, I don't think there has been a team since 1978 that could have gone all the way. And 1978 was more suspect than we let on.
We lost to Miami of Ohio, the pre-Bird/Johnson equivalent of a 16 seed. We had a great team that year but we lost Bo Ellis to graduation in 1977 and I do think that mattered enormously. Bernard Toone, Ulice Payne and Odell Ball didn't make up for Bo. Period. We could have and should have beaten Miami of Ohio, but Kentucky that year was really tough, as was Notre Dame and I believe Duke and UNC.
We never should have let MIami of Ohio get anywhere near us. The closest they should have been was 0-0.
The 2003 team played the game of their lives in Minneapolis. In fact, that probably was St. Al of Brookfield's first miracle on the way to sainthood. The fact that they played the game of their lives was evident a week later when they played Kansas and got manhandled. To expect that team to run the table would be the equivalent of last year's team winning the Big East after defeating Villanova in Milwaukee.
Other than these two teams, the only other team that could have and should have run the table was the 1970-1971 team, which was screwed out of their shot by a group of bigoted, biased referees in Athens, GA against Ohio State. The 1974 team got very close but notwithstanding St. Al's two technicals (he spent time in Purgatory for that one), I question whether we would have beaten North Carolina State. David Thompson was incredible.
With the exception of the 1978 and 2003 teams, nobody was even close in the post-Al era.
I would definitely agree with your assessment. I was there thru all that, the NIT championship team might have been good enough to get into the Final 4, and if it
was not for Ric Cobb making one free throw, they could have gotten to the Final 4 in that year. Would not have beaten Lew Alcindor, though. Just need to find the
next Jim Chones in Wisconsin, and that is not that easy. As good as the Hauser boys can be, they are not in the same caliber of Chones. The other issue would be,
if there was another Chones, would he pick MU in this era. Herro did not. Not putting him in Chones class, not close, but he picked a blue blood. The new arena will
tell us how kids feel about playing in the best facility in the country, until the next one is built.
1. 1978
2. 2003
3. 2009
Quote from: DCHoopster on January 02, 2018, 12:50:53 PM
I would definitely agree with your assessment. I was there thru all that, the NIT championship team might have been good enough to get into the Final 4, and if it
was not for Ric Cobb making one free throw, they could have gotten to the Final 4 in that year. Would not have beaten Lew Alcindor, though. Just need to find the
next Jim Chones in Wisconsin, and that is not that easy. As good as the Hauser boys can be, they are not in the same caliber of Chones. The other issue would be,
if there was another Chones, would he pick MU in this era. Herro did not. Not putting him in Chones class, not close, but he picked a blue blood. The new arena will
tell us how kids feel about playing in the best facility in the country, until the next one is built.
Ellenson picked MU... your question should be whether a player of that level would stay longer than a season
Depends on what you're looking at. The best road to a title was 2013. Michigan was beatable and while Louisville had trounced us, even I think Junior would've been better the second time around (he had more turnovers than points and assists combined).
The best team was 2009 before the DJ injury. As great as the Final Four team was, they couldn't play a lick of defense and Syracuse would've been just as problematic as Kansas was. 2009 was a brilliant offensive team with four legit scoring options. They also played enough defense to stay competitive.
I still believe that if DJ doesn't get injured, we go 26-5 (15-3), get the 2-seed in the BET and a likely Big East final appearance against Villanova or UConn. Win or lose, we'd have been a 1-seed in the NCAA Tournament in either the Midwest or West with a good shot at making the final.
Hell, if the game in Boise against Missouri had gone our way we might have been looking at a decent path to the Final Four, plus another week to get DJ a little more healthy. Memphis, then a rematch with UConn? That was doable.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 02, 2018, 01:02:48 PM
Ellenson picked MU... your question should be whether a player of that level would stay longer than a season
I do not think Henry is close to the best players at MU. Considering he has spent almost his first 2 years on the bench or in the D League, he is not making a difference
in the NBA. Chones had a nice career and if Al let him finish his junior year he would be in the rafters. As Al said, an "aircraft carrier", not sure there has been one since
Al's era, Maurice Lucas, was second. Rob Jackson made a difference in the Final 4 era. That is about it. Jae Crowder or Lazar might be next and both played out of position.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 02, 2018, 01:19:35 PM
Depends on what you're looking at. The best road to a title was 2013. Michigan was beatable and while Louisville had trounced us, even I think Junior would've been better the second time around (he had more turnovers than points and assists combined).
The best team was 2009 before the DJ injury. As great as the Final Four team was, they couldn't play a lick of defense and Syracuse would've been just as problematic as Kansas was. 2009 was a brilliant offensive team with four legit scoring options. They also played enough defense to stay competitive.
I still believe that if DJ doesn't get injured, we go 26-5 (15-3), get the 2-seed in the BET and a likely Big East final appearance against Villanova or UConn. Win or lose, we'd have been a 1-seed in the NCAA Tournament in either the Midwest or West with a good shot at making the final.
Even if they weren't a 1-seed, not even Myron would have been picking against a healthy MU team in 2009.
Quote from: DCHoopster on January 02, 2018, 02:59:03 PM
I do not think Henry is close to the best players at MU. Considering he has spent almost his first 2 years on the bench or in the D League, he is not making a difference
in the NBA. Chones had a nice career and if Al let him finish his junior year he would be in the rafters. As Al said, an "aircraft carrier", not sure there has been one since
Al's era, Maurice Lucas, was second. Rob Jackson made a difference in the Final 4 era. That is about it. Jae Crowder or Lazar might be next and both played out of position.
Ah yes you're right a freshman that averaged 17 and 9.7 can't be that good because he's sitting on the bench in the NBA... ::) By your own logic Lazar can't be that good.
I'm not saying that he's one of the best all time players I'm saying those huge impact guys now actually play their freshman year and won't stick around to be Chones level guys. And yes even though you're extremely biased a 17 and nearly 10 player as a freshman certainly would've been on that level two years later but they don't stick around.
For reference Chones has a year to bulk up and get acclimated with the system and, I'm assuming, play other freshman teams(?) he averaged 17.9 and 11.5 sophomore year... that's awful similar to a freshman averaging 17 and 9.7
Easily 2011-2012 team. If Otule doesn't get hurt that year it's a whole different ball game. MUs biggest weakness that year was a lack of an interior defender.
I think Jae and Jamil split time guarding the 5 when Davonte was out with the ankle injury for a couple games.
Jae was great, DJO was one of the most underrated players ever at MU, and for as much flack as Junior got he was more than a serviceable point guard.
08-09 by far if DJ doesn't get hurt. That team was 23-4 pre injury playing in a conference that got 3 out of the 4 number 1 seeds.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 02, 2018, 12:51:16 PM
1. 1978
2. 2003
3. 2009
Best chance? Goose, you're one heck of a Warrior but other than 1978, the chance that either of those teams could have taken it to the house and cut the nets down (with a switchblade, I hope) was measured in percentages six to eight spots to the right of the decimal.
It takes a special team today to get there. I thought the Hillbilly was building toward that point when the debacle of his last season happened. The 2003 team was mauled and the 2009 team never was after the injury. If you're going down that route, then I would throw in the 1971-1972 team if Jim Chones had stayed. We were THAT good.
Again, I repeat, no post-Al team since 1978 has been even close to running the table. I trust Wojo will change that in the years ahead, but we're not there yet.
'69 Cubs
Quote from: real chili 83 on January 02, 2018, 05:40:05 PM
'69 Cubs
Yuck! Losers!
Chili, you would be a much more worldly fellow if you had recognized the futility of Cubdom and become a Cardinals fan.
Just think, you'd have learned a World Championship is not a tri-generational thing!
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 02, 2018, 07:58:07 PM
Yuck! Losers!
Chili, you would be a much more worldly fellow if you had recognized the futility of Cubdom and become a Cardinals fan.
Just think, you'd have learned a World Championship is not a tri-generational thing!
Oh, good lord, where do I start? May the lord have mercy on your soul!
When do we knock a few whiskeys back at Soft Pines?
Quote from: real chili 83 on January 02, 2018, 08:00:47 PM
Oh, good lord, where do I start? May the lord have mercy on your soul!
When do we knock a few whiskeys back at Soft Pines?
I'll be up when the Permafrost melts!
Soft Pines it is! I owe my Dad a visit soon!
The 2009 team. There was a quote from Jay Bilas when describing them that I always loved. He said prior to DJ's injury "that team was lethal".
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 02, 2018, 03:13:50 PM
Ah yes you're right a freshman that averaged 17 and 9.7 can't be that good because he's sitting on the bench in the NBA... ::) By your own logic Lazar can't be that good.
I'm not saying that he's one of the best all time players I'm saying those huge impact guys now actually play their freshman year and won't stick around to be Chones level guys. And yes even though you're extremely biased a 17 and nearly 10 player as a freshman certainly would've been on that level two years later but they don't stick around.
For reference Chones has a year to bulk up and get acclimated with the system and, I'm assuming, play other freshman teams(?) he averaged 17.9 and 11.5 sophomore year... that's awful similar to a freshman averaging 17 and 9.7
Chones's efficiency (compared to Henry's) was off the charts.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 02, 2018, 03:55:55 PM
Best chance? Goose, you're one heck of a Warrior but other than 1978, the chance that either of those teams could have taken it to the house and cut the nets down (with a switchblade, I hope) was measured in percentages six to eight spots to the right of the decimal.
It takes a special team today to get there. I thought the Hillbilly was building toward that point when the debacle of his last season happened. The 2003 team was mauled and the 2009 team never was after the injury. If you're going down that route, then I would throw in the 1971-1972 team if Jim Chones had stayed. We were THAT good.
Again, I repeat, no post-Al team since 1978 has been even close to running the table. I trust Wojo will change that in the years ahead, but we're not there yet.
I think you need to go back and read OP's question - he asked which team
in the last 40 years had the
best chance to win it all.
1971-72 was more than 40 years ago, so even though it was one of MU's best teams ever (1975-76 is right up there too), it is irrelevant to the question.
And as for
how good a chance those other teams had, it really doesn't matter whether it's two points to the right of the decimal or ten - again, the question simply asked which had the best chance. "Best" is relative simply to the chances our other teams had in the last 40 years. Given the question, I gave a good answer.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 02, 2018, 12:37:24 PM
With the exception of the 1978 and 2003 teams, nobody was even close in the post-Al era.
Well, the 2013 team played only one fewer postseason game than the 2003 team did, so I'd say that's "close." And like a few others have said, the path ahead of the '13 Warriors was very manageable.
I loved the 2009 team, but it was awfully short, Butler was not yet JFB, and Buzz was not yet an experienced coach. Winning 6 games over 3 weekends, even with DJ ... I have a hard time seeing it.
Obviously I loved the 2003 team, and I was in New Orleans for the FF, but it's difficult to say that team was "close" after the way Kansas thumped 'em. I think Langford just scored again, BTW.
In '78, I had JUST decided I was going to Marquette a couple weeks earlier. I was all puffy-chested about being defending champions and proudly wore my Warriors t-shirt around school. And then we lost to Effen Miami of Effen Ohio, and I had to hear about it until the day I graduated high school 3 months later. So I have a grudge against that effen team - ha!
But seriously, I'm sticking with '13. That team had good balance, a knack for winning close games, good size, played good D, was battle-tested and had a legit player at every position. Not only did we shoot 22.6% against Cuse, but take away Davante and the rest of the team shot 13.6%. Think about that! They would have trouble shooting that poorly again with their eyes closed!! Cuse was very beatable, and so was Michigan. That puts you into the title game vs. Ville, and anything can happen if you get there.
Fun conversation. Thanks for starting the thread.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 02, 2018, 10:07:14 PM
Chones's efficiency (compared to Henry's) was off the charts.
And he was a year older... why does everyone think I'm comparing a freshmen to a sophomore straight up?
No question in my mind it was 2003. You had an all time great player and you had no weaknesses. Two bigs who could hurt you, one of the greatest basketball players to ever play the game slashing to the hoop, and shooting on the perimeter. We had just absolutely dominated the best team in the country. If the coach would've been able to find some tape of Kansas before the Final Four game and realized they might push the ball just a little bit we would've had a real chance. Unfortunately our coach was unaware you can get out and run even off of a made basket and we got embarrassed by a good team that wasn't as good as the team we smoked the week before.
The Elite 8 team didn't have enough shooting. Most of the other teams we've had didn't have enough size. '03 had everything you needed.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 02, 2018, 11:29:38 PM
No question in my mind it was 2003. You had an all time great player and you had no weaknesses. Two bigs who could hurt you, one of the greatest basketball players to ever play the game slashing to the hoop, and shooting on the perimeter. We had just absolutely dominated the best team in the country. If the coach would've been able to find some tape of Kansas before the Final Four game and realized they might push the ball just a little bit we would've had a real chance. Unfortunately our coach was unaware you can get out and run even off of a made basket and we got embarrassed by a good team that wasn't as good as the team we smoked the week before.
The Elite 8 team didn't have enough shooting. Most of the other teams we've had didn't have enough size. '03 had everything you needed.
I agree that the E8 team didn't shoot it so well ... except when they needed to in the biggest games. They just had a knack for coming through. Until the Cuse game, of course. That was such an outlier.
As for Kentucky being better than Kansas, maybe if KY's best player had been healthy. From the NY Times article:
For Kentucky, the question will always be, what would have happened if Keith Bogans had been healthy? For Coach Tubby Smith, the question may be, was it wise to start Bogans and play him 24 minutes when it was was obvious he could not perform to his usual standards because of a high sprain of his left ankle?
With an ineffective Bogans, the Wildcats (32-4) unraveled. They lost the vigor from their defense. The only time they had given up so many points this season was in a 115-87 victory over Tennessee State.
''I felt fine; it was a little sore,'' Bogans said. ''I tried to block it out. I couldn't really get my balance. I couldn't pivot on my left foot. I couldn't really jump on it, either.''
He scored 15 points, close to his season average of 15.7. But he had no assists and his teammates seemed out of sync as he spent much of the time on the perimeter and limped after drives down the lane.Having said all that, I wouldn't argue strongly against the FF team for all the reasons you stated. Wade is the most accomplished Warrior of all-time, two others from that team played in the NBA, and they had a legit major-college big man.
For me, it came down to whether it was easier to imagine the FF team beating Kansas and Cuse or the E8 team beating Cuse, Michigan and Ville. I choose the latter, but I'm certainly not saying you're "wrong."
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 02, 2018, 10:13:05 PM
And as for how good a chance those other teams had, it really doesn't matter whether it's two points to the right of the decimal or ten - again, the question simply asked which had the best chance. "Best" is relative simply to the chances our other teams had in the last 40 years. Given the question, I gave a good answer.
But I also think that realism plays a part in this or any discussion. For example, there is a "chance" someone on Scoop right now could be elected President of the United States. Most of us are U.S. Citizens and a good hunk of us are more than 35 years of age. So therefore, the statistical probability is technically greater than zero that one of us could be President.
But really, the "best" chance that an MU team since 1978 to have won it all or a Scooper to be elected President is so small that the question is ridiculous. If you want to debate the best team in the last 40 years, that's one thing. I'd argue either 2003 or E8 team. But to suggest there has been any hope of an National Championship since 1978 is ridiculous.
As a side note, in 2003 I saw the team in Indy and Minneapolis against Holy Cross, Missouri, Pittsburgh and Kentucky. Between the time I left my seat in Minneapolis and the time I got to my car outside the Metrodome, I had three calls wanting to know if I was going to New Orleans. My response was, "no." This team had just played so far over its head, light didn't get down that far. The chance of that happening again was, unfortunately, remote and I knew it. So I stayed home and was distraught at being so right when we played Kansas the following week.
Again, I'm expecting Coach Wojo will change this in the years ahead. Coach Hillbilly looked like he was on the path to do so for awhile but then, the moonshine called!
People are really underrating the 2013 Michigan team. That team had 6 NBA players and people think we were going to get by them with ease. They were more likely to shred us.
Another thing about 2003 that hasn't been brought up was Karon Bradley's knee injury. Word on campus was the dude was killing it in practice and was pushing for a starting spot when he blew out his knee. Before the injury, Bradley had the athleticism of Dominic James and a shot that could rival Markus Howard. Bradley was never the same after the injury and eventually transferred to Wichita St.
Quote from: tower912 on January 02, 2018, 12:13:03 PM
The 08-09 team until Dominic got hurt. The 13 team against Syracuse..... Buzz had thrown his best wrinkle at Boeheim in the regular season with Davante and Chris in at the same time. Jim was ready for the rematch.
I still firmly believe had Crean finally figured out how to beat the Syracuse zone, we would have pummeled Indiana to get to the final four. Zeller would have no chance vs Davante and I loved the idea of the Oladipo-Vander matchup.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 02, 2018, 11:29:38 PMNo question in my mind it was 2003. You had an all time great player and you had no weaknesses.
Our defense that year was a huge weakness. We were unstoppable on offense, but not so much on the other end. Going into the Kansas game, we had allowed 11 straight games where teams scored 1.00 ppp on us or more. Sure, we outscored people, but essentially that team was pretty similar to these past two seasons where the other team is going to score and we just hope to score more. A lot of that was masked by Dwyane Wade being a ridiculous shot-blocker and steal generator, but as a team we were bad defensively.
The 2003 team was by far the worst defensive team in terms of ranking in the Pomeroy era. Here are the only teams with defensive rankings below 40 to even make the Final Four since 2002:
- #46 - 2011 Butler
- #58 - 2003 Texas
- #78 - 2011 VCU
- #109 - 2003 Marquette
So Marquette wasn't just the worst, they were the worst by a whopping 31 spots, and over 50 spots removed from the next worst team. In 14/16 seasons, no team with a ranking below 40 even made the Final Four and in nearly half (7/16) no team with a ranking outside the top-20 made it that far. Our 2003 team was a great offensive team, but in terms of even making the Final Four, they were an incredible outlier. The only team to make a National Final with a sub-40 defensive ranking was that 2011 Butler team, though they beat an even worse defensive VCU team to do it.
For me, this is the biggest concern with Wojo's team. In the past 16 years there have been 64 Final Four teams. Of those, 88% had defenses ranked in the top-30 in terms of adjusted efficiency. If we want to be contenders for Final Fours and National Titles, we have to be much, much better on that end.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 03, 2018, 07:44:56 AM
But I also think that realism plays a part in this or any discussion. For example, there is a "chance" someone on Scoop right now could be elected President of the United States. Most of us are U.S. Citizens and a good hunk of us are more than 35 years of age. So therefore, the statistical probability is technically greater than zero that one of us could be President.
But really, the "best" chance that an MU team since 1978 to have won it all or a Scooper to be elected President is so small that the question is ridiculous. If you want to debate the best team in the last 40 years, that's one thing. I'd argue either 2003 or E8 team. But to suggest there has been any hope of an National Championship since 1978 is ridiculous.
I get what you're saying, but I'm having a hard time reconciling your logic with Butler's 2010 team that literally came within 3-4 inches of winning the title (and maybe even 1-2 inches on Hayward's baseline fade-away with 4 seconds left). I don't think the gap between Duke and Butler - a team that was 1-3 vs. ranked teams going into the tournament, mind you - that year was materially smaller than the distance between MU's 03, 09, or 13's teams and their respective competition. Any team of decent talent can go on a run and win it all -- hell, look at UCONN in 2011... and their run started the weekend before the tournament when they entered the BE tournament ranked #21.
If I had the power to go back in time to change one on-field/court/ice sports event from happening, it would be to keep Dominic James from getting hurt in 2009. That team was locked and loaded for a Final Four run.
MU was 23-4 (12-2 in the Superconference Era Big East), a half game out of first place, with the chance to move into sole possession of first place with a home win over #2 UConn. MU was two games ahead of 5th-place Villanova for a Double-Bye at the Big East Tournament, with four games to play. They were ranked #10 in the country. MU's only losses since mid-December were a flukish one-point trap game loss at USF, and a loss to Villanova at the Pavilion (entirely forgiveable). MU had won 15 of 17, and despite the (accurate) perception that its schedule closed with a murderers' row of UConn, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse, MU had already beaten five ranked teams that Season (Wisconsin, Villanova, West Virginia, Notre Dame, and Georgetown).
(http://i64.tinypic.com/15xc91.jpg)
When Dominic got hurt, approximately 4 minutes into the game against #2 UConn, he had already hit a three-pointer, and MU trailed UConn 8-5. Even without Dominic, eight minutes later, Marquette had a 6-point lead (28-22). Shortly after that, the wheels came off. UConn went on a 16-0 run to make it 38-28. However, MU regrouped and it was only a six-point game at the half, and a three point game with 150 seconds to go.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/9kzdro.jpg)
UConn pulled away to win by 11; a result that was flattering to UConn considering the tight game it had been. I have to believe that a healthy James for the entire game would have made a difference and that MU would have pulled out the win, and gone 3-1 in that murderers row conclusion to its schedule to finish the Big East season 15-3, good enough for at least a share of the league title.
Even without James, MU lost its next game at Freedom Hall to #6 Louisville by only four points, and after getting waxed at #3 Pitt, took #25 Syracuse to overtime on Senior Day.
The end result of the four-game slide was the loss of MU's Double-Bye to Villanova. Accordingly, Nova had an extra day's rest when MU played them in the Big East Quarterfinals. MU lost on a buzzer-beater. Again, what would a healthy James have offered? Could MU have beaten Nova? If they did, would a Big East Semifinal appearance, and a share of the regular season title been enought to secure a #1 seed?
Instead, after losing 5 of its last 6, MU was assigned a 6-seed. After surviving an upset bid by a very good Utah State team (30-4) in an unfriendly seeding location (Boise, Idaho, only a 4.5 hour drive from Utah State's campus), MU played Missouri, and was only down by 2 with 5.5 seconds to go. AGAIN. ALL WITHOUT DOMINIC JAMES. MU's final effort to tie or win was denied by Lazar Heyward's size 47 shoe, and MU lost by 4.
That Mizzou team advanced to the Sweet 16 to play Memphis, a team that had beaten everybody (33-3), but hadn't beaten anybody (only one win over a ranked team all season). I believe that MU would have beaten Memphis (as Missouri did by 11), setting up a showdown in the Elite 8 with UConn, on a neutral floor in Glendale, Arizona.
MU had already played UConn more or less even without James. I have to think that the addition of James would have been enough to set up a date in the Final Four in Detroit against Michigan State.
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 03, 2018, 07:44:56 AM
But I also think that realism plays a part in this or any discussion. For example, there is a "chance" someone on Scoop right now could be elected President of the United States. Most of us are U.S. Citizens and a good hunk of us are more than 35 years of age. So therefore, the statistical probability is technically greater than zero that one of us could be President.
But really, the "best" chance that an MU team since 1978 to have won it all or a Scooper to be elected President is so small that the question is ridiculous. If you want to debate the best team in the last 40 years, that's one thing. I'd argue either 2003 or E8 team. But to suggest there has been any hope of an National Championship since 1978 is ridiculous.
As a side note, in 2003 I saw the team in Indy and Minneapolis against Holy Cross, Missouri, Pittsburgh and Kentucky. Between the time I left my seat in Minneapolis and the time I got to my car outside the Metrodome, I had three calls wanting to know if I was going to New Orleans. My response was, "no." This team had just played so far over its head, light didn't get down that far. The chance of that happening again was, unfortunately, remote and I knew it. So I stayed home and was distraught at being so right when we played Kansas the following week.
Again, I'm expecting Coach Wojo will change this in the years ahead. Coach Hillbilly looked like he was on the path to do so for awhile but then, the moonshine called!
Or, you were the good luck charm and went and ruined it for all of us. Finally, I have someone other than Crean to blame the Kansas debacle on!
Quote from: dgies9156 on January 03, 2018, 07:44:56 AM
But I also think that realism plays a part in this or any discussion. For example, there is a "chance" someone on Scoop right now could be elected President of the United States. Most of us are U.S. Citizens and a good hunk of us are more than 35 years of age. So therefore, the statistical probability is technically greater than zero that one of us could be President.
In case you haven't been paying attention, someone who is less qualified than anyone on Scoop - and who caused political "experts" to chortle when he announced his candidacy - is sitting in the Oval Office.
As for "realism," both our '03 and '09 teams had at least as good a chance going into the dance as '83 NC State (6 seed in a 48-team field) or '85 'Nova (8 seed).
2009 assuming James didn't get hurt. Not close IMHO.
Quote from: mug644 on January 03, 2018, 12:28:54 PM
Or, you were the good luck charm and went and ruined it for all of us. Finally, I have someone other than Crean to blame the Kansas debacle on!
I hope I don't starting seeing posts "Dgies sucks" constantly.
After having a couple weeks of MU basketball, I had to come back to reality. Ms. Dgies is definitely not a college basketball fan (It has something to do with taking her to an MU game on her 20th birthday and cutting off a lovely and romantic dinner to get to a basketball game). She just doesn't get into it (thought she did watch the National Championship game with me the night we won it all) and either I spent time with her or well......
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 03, 2018, 12:20:16 PM
If I had the power to go back in time to change one on-field/court/ice sports event from happening, it would be to keep Dominic James from getting hurt in 2009. That team was locked and loaded for a Final Four run.
MU was 23-4 (12-2 in the Superconference Era Big East), a half game out of first place, with the chance to move into sole possession of first place with a home win over #2 UConn. MU was two games ahead of 5th-place Villanova for a Double-Bye at the Big East Tournament, with four games to play. They were ranked #10 in the country. MU's only losses since mid-December were a flukish one-point trap game loss at USF, and a loss to Villanova at the Pavilion (entirely forgiveable). MU had won 15 of 17, and despite the (accurate) perception that its schedule closed with a murderers' row of UConn, Louisville, Pittsburgh, and Syracuse, MU had already beaten five ranked teams that Season (Wisconsin, Villanova, West Virginia, Notre Dame, and Georgetown).
(http://i64.tinypic.com/15xc91.jpg)
When Dominic got hurt, approximately 4 minutes into the game against #2 UConn, he had already hit a three-pointer, and MU trailed UConn 8-5. Even without Dominic, eight minutes later, Marquette had a 6-point lead (28-22). Shortly after that, the wheels came off. UConn went on a 16-0 run to make it 38-28. However, MU regrouped and it was only a six-point game at the half, and a three point game with 150 seconds to go.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/9kzdro.jpg)
UConn pulled away to win by 11; a result that was flattering to UConn considering the tight game it had been. I have to believe that a healthy James for the entire game would have made a difference and that MU would have pulled out the win, and gone 3-1 in that murderers row conclusion to its schedule to finish the Big East season 15-3, good enough for at least a share of the league title.
Even without James, MU lost its next game at Freedom Hall to #6 Louisville by only four points, and after getting waxed at #3 Pitt, took #25 Syracuse to overtime on Senior Day.
The end result of the four-game slide was the loss of MU's Double-Bye to Villanova. Accordingly, Nova had an extra day's rest when MU played them in the Big East Quarterfinals. MU lost on a buzzer-beater. Again, what would a healthy James have offered? Could MU have beaten Nova? If they did, would a Big East Semifinal appearance, and a share of the regular season title been enought to secure a #1 seed?
Instead, after losing 5 of its last 6, MU was assigned a 6-seed. After surviving an upset bid by a very good Utah State team (30-4) in an unfriendly seeding location (Boise, Idaho, only a 4.5 hour drive from Utah State's campus), MU played Missouri, and was only down by 2 with 5.5 seconds to go. AGAIN. ALL WITHOUT DOMINIC JAMES. MU's final effort to tie or win was denied by Lazar Heyward's size 47 shoe, and MU lost by 4.
That Mizzou team advanced to the Sweet 16 to play Memphis, a team that had beaten everybody (33-3), but hadn't beaten anybody (only one win over a ranked team all season). I believe that MU would have beaten Memphis (as Missouri did by 11), setting up a showdown in the Elite 8 with UConn, on a neutral floor in Glendale, Arizona.
MU had already played UConn more or less even without James. I have to think that the addition of James would have been enough to set up a date in the Final Four in Detroit against Michigan State.
man - reading this takes me back, and makes me sad
Quote from: Carl Spackler on January 03, 2018, 02:44:21 PM
man - reading this takes me back, and makes me sad
Honestly, it makes me sad for the Amigos most of all (personally, I have solace in the fact the Utah State game was the first MU game I watched with my son and the Mizzou game was the first one I watched holding him; although truth be told, he did sleep through both games... in his defense, it was a pretty eventful weekend for him having been cut out of my wife's abdomen and all just a few hours before Utah State tipped off). Here was a chance for three guys, perhaps one of the most talented backcourt trios ever seen in college hoops, who had spent every moment of the previous four years together through a wider array of tribulation than any student-athlete should have to endure* just waiting for the greatness we saw only in glimpses to finally break out from behind the curtain and end their collegiate career with an emphatic bang. Instead, we saw their career end with a subdued snap of DJ's ankle.
Whether anyone here wants to admit it or not, the strides MU basketball has made since 2005 is owed in tremendous part to Dominic, Jerel and Wes... had these guys not accomplished what they did, there wouldn't have been a Novak 40-point game or ND buzzer beater, a Buzz, a JFB, a competition between teammates for conference MVP, a Henry, a #1 Nova victory, a #thing... hell, instead of having fun with Tower's non-sequitur thread pushing 77 pages and lamenting an MUBB game not being on national TV, the only threads we might have today would either be about how fun '77 was -or- off of which TV tower MUBB should be pushed.
They say you get out of life what you put into it, but the Amigos are the antithesis of that adage... they deserved way more than they got.
Quote from: Carl Spackler on January 03, 2018, 02:44:21 PM
man - reading this takes me back, and makes me sad
Yes - I miss all of this...
Other than Providence and Villanova, its hard to argue that the other programs are in a better position today than when that screen shot was taken.
You know I get James was important, but here's what we still had:
16.3ppg and 8.7rpg
19.8ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.9apg
18.3ppg, and 5.7rpg
Any other year we'd never excuse a coach having that much offense and rebounding not making it out of the first weekend.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 03, 2018, 03:42:07 PM
You know I get James was important, but here's what we still had:
16.3ppg and 8.7rpg
19.8ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.9apg
18.3ppg, and 5.7rpg
Any other year we'd never excuse a coach having that much offense and rebounding not making it out of the first weekend.
Agree that we wouldn't excuse it, but sometimes there is more to basketball than stats. DJ was the engine, he created so many opportunities for others. He was also our best on ball defender and took other teams out of their rhythm.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 03, 2018, 03:42:07 PM
You know I get James was important, but here's what we still had:
16.3ppg and 8.7rpg
19.8ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.9apg
18.3ppg, and 5.7rpg
Any other year we'd never excuse a coach having that much offense and rebounding not making it out of the first weekend.
I'll forgive you because I know you were still punching with inflatable gloves at the time, but once upon a time, some smart-ass UL schmuck held up a sign at a game that said:
"NO DIENER, NO CHANCE"
Granted the circumstances were different, but I'm pretty sure aforementioned schmuck graduated summa cum laude for coming up with such simple words of wisdom to capture the transcendent sentiment of how stats don't even begin to tell (or forgive) the importance of the PG position.
I will amend my previous answer if the definition of the last 40 years includes the 77-78 team. If so , then they were our best chance. The loss to Miami was a classic NCAA upset and the Kentucky team that year was beatable. We would have matched up well against Kentucky.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on January 03, 2018, 12:20:16 PMEven without James, MU lost its next game at Freedom Hall to #6 Louisville by only four points, and after getting waxed at #3 Pitt, took #25 Syracuse to overtime on Senior Day.
That Pittsburgh game may have been vastly different too. We had a 9-point lead in the second half before Levance Fields and DeJuan Blair took over with the high low game. Put DJ in there guarding Fields (who had 17P/10A) and it might be a different game.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on January 03, 2018, 03:42:07 PM
You know I get James was important, but here's what we still had:
16.3ppg and 8.7rpg
19.8ppg, 4.5rpg, 3.9apg
18.3ppg, and 5.7rpg
Any other year we'd never excuse a coach having that much offense and rebounding not making it out of the first weekend.
What we really lost with James was the ability to contain opposing guards. In those four losses, it was in large part AJ Price for UConn, Levance Fields for Pitt, and Jonny Flynn for Syracuse. We lost far more on the back end and teams exploited that because Acker was at best a subpar defender.