MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: schuesst on December 01, 2017, 10:06:02 AM
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Recruiting question. Does MU now have a policy against recruiting Juco's? MU got Lackey, Crowder, Butler and many others from Juco. I realize that for this site of very knowledgeable people, this is a dumb question, which has no doubt been answered a bunch of times before.
But any insights would be appreciated.
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I would imagine that the powers that be would prefer to avoid JUCO guys for a little while, or at the very least would prefer to not rely on them as heavily as we did in the Buzz era. I get the impression that part of choosing Wojo was the image he would convey and the assumption that he would run a program that was viewed as being less rough around the edges. Given our need at PG for next year, a good JUCO guy might be a nice addition, but I would bet more on targeting a grad transfer than JUCO.
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I think JUCOs would be welcome so long as they qualify, and that their credits can transfer. Most JUCO kids major in PhyEd, which doesn't transfer to MU.
But if the right situation came along, I don't think the admin would have a problem with it.
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I would imagine that the powers that be would prefer to avoid JUCO guys for a little while, or at the very least would prefer to not rely on them as heavily as we did in the Buzz era. I get the impression that part of choosing Wojo was the image he would convey and the assumption that he would run a program that was viewed as being less rough around the edges. Given our need at PG for next year, a good JUCO guy might be a nice addition, but I would bet more on targeting a grad transfer than JUCO.
This--Wojo is a Grad transfer guy, and if he has been asked by admin to be that guy, I don't think he has a problem. I don't think that this staff has the ties to get their feet into the juco ranks--with players or coaches.
I personally think that the view from the admin (if true) is short sighted.
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I think Jae and Jimmy prove JUCOs can be a good thing. When they come up in conversation, I say those are Marquette guys. And I think they identify with MU as well.
Of course I'm picking probably the two most successful NBA MU JUCOs as examples...maybe only the good ones stick in my mind.
And I agree that Wojo doesn't seem anything like the JUCO wheeler dealer Buzz was. He's got to be himself. But if its true our coaching staff has minimal knowledge or contact with those sources, I think thats something they need to work on.
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I also thought that the admin has put in a rule that a player had to have enough eligibility to be able to graduate. So someone like jae crowder would no longer be an option. (which I don't agree with, but hey the admins didn't as me :) )
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Juco class is pretty well picked over this year. It was already weak for PG's, plus we have 5 players that will be juniors next year. Most Juco's are 2 year kids so adding one this year would lead to an even more imbalanced roster.
Wojo did recruit Darral Willis, may have even had an official visit. Willis is averaging 11.5 ppg and 7.0 rpg for Wichita St. So I don't think Juco's are off the table. It just has to be the right fit. There are far more Trend Blackledge's than Jimmy Butler's so it's not as simple as "Just recruit more Jucos."
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There is no ban against JUCOs. There are tighter guidelines than before. Furthermore I don't think Wojo and his staff have many JUCO connections.
Honestly we are a little biased because of the success that Buzz had here, but JUCOs usually don't have the track record that they did here under Buzz. And I don't have a problem with Wojo's recruiting as it stands.
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I think Jae and Jimmy prove JUCOs can be a good thing. When they come up in conversation, I say those are Marquette guys. And I think they identify with MU as well.
Of course I'm picking probably the two most successful NBA MU JUCOs as examples...maybe only the good ones stick in my mind.
And I agree that Wojo doesn't seem anything like the JUCO wheeler dealer Buzz was. He's got to be himself. But if its true our coaching staff has minimal knowledge or contact with those sources, I think thats something they need to work on.
DJO and Buycks probably do as well. Not so sure Fulce does, never really see him doing twitter or instagram shoutouts to MUBB like the other guys
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DJO and Buycks probably do as well. Not so sure Fulce does, never really see him doing twitter or instagram shoutouts to MUBB like the other guys
Probably because he is on Buzz's staff at VT.
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Probably because he is on Buzz's staff at VT.
Which gives more credo to what I said. Just because he’s working somewhere doesn’t mean he can’t show love for his alma mater, I’m sure wojo has a duke pennant in his office.
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Which gives more credo to what I said. Just because he’s working somewhere doesn’t mean he can’t show love for his alma mater, I’m sure wojo has a duke pennant in his office.
You don't work on another coaching staff and do public shout outs for another school. Has Wojo ever done something like that for Duke? It's much different than hanging personal stuff in the office.
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You don't work on another coaching staff and do public shout outs for another school. Has Wojo ever done something like that for Duke? It's much different than hanging personal stuff in the office.
I don’t know if he has or not, don’t really do twitter anymore and don’t know if wojo has instagram. I offered my opinion that 4/5 of our buzz jucos identify as MU guys you aren’t going to suddenly change my mind unless you get Fulce on the phone.
Quite frankly this is a strange thing to pick a fight about.
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I'm not picking a fight. I am saying there is a reason why Fulce isn't publicly identifying as a Marquette guy. If you choose not to accept my reasoning, well that's fine. But I have been working with coaches for 30 years and its something they simply don't do.
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Quite frankly this is a strange thing to pick a fight about.
Seriously? He simply pointed out that he's on staff at VT. Then you double down on your dumb comment with something dumber. If you take a new job with a competing company I don't think you'd promote the old company to the masses. Good Grief.
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Seriously? He simply pointed out that he's on staff at VT. Then you double down on your dumb comment with something dumber. If you take a new job with a competing company I don't think you'd promote the old company to the masses. Good Grief.
So you go straight to insulting people rather than offering anything insightful. Very classy, you must a blast to talk to. And comparing it to companies is, as you would put it, dumb. One is a place you went to school etc the other is a place of employment that’d just as soon fire you as you’d leave them.
I'm not picking a fight. I am saying there is a reason why Fulce isn't publicly identifying as a Marquette guy. If you choose not to accept my reasoning, well that's fine. But I have been working with coaches for 30 years and its something they simply don't do.
Fair enough, I suppose you would have more intell in the matter. I guess I’d need to do a bit more research with other coaches before I tried to form an opinion.
My thought process was formed from grad school interviews I’ve done where once the lady went to Creighton and we were talking Big East and jesuits etc despite the school not being Creighton. I suppose it would be different in sports.
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A few years ago, Fulce was working at MU in some capacity. I remember him coming out before a game with a mic to get the students going. Also, a quick glance at Fulce's Twitter feed shows that he shared a link of Buzz's dance after MU's NCAAT win and linked to a story about Jimmy Butler. No, it's not a direct shout out to MU, but he's not ignoring MU altogether.
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A few years ago, Fulce was working at MU in some capacity. I remember him coming out before a game with a mic to get the students going. Also, a quick glance at Fulce's Twitter feed shows that he shared a link of Buzz's dance after MU's NCAAT win and linked to a story about Jimmy Butler. No, it's not a direct shout out to MU, but he's not ignoring MU altogether.
Clearly I’ve gotta hop back on the twitter before opening my mouth.
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Bags, folks in academics have separate closets at home for all their Spirit wear. We have a close friend who spent many years in senior administration at Butler. His MU gear only came out on special occasions and when no Butler folks were around. Don't be surprised about Joe's lack of public statements.
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Tanned Tommy had no qualms about pumping the F4 MU reunion when at I4, aina? Even issued a press release.
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Tanned Tommy had no qualms about pumping the F4 MU reunion when at I4, aina? Even issued a press release.
https://youtu.be/ANsZfk5G8vA?t=1m7s
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Not recruiting jucos bc they might not be on track to graduate but signing Henry Ellenson seems very hypocritical to me.
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Not recruiting jucos bc they might not be on track to graduate but signing Henry Ellenson seems very hypocritical to me.
Not sure why. Ellenson had the ability to graduate within the time he was eligible.
Many Jucos, mostly non-qualifiers, do not.
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Not recruiting jucos bc they might not be on track to graduate but signing Henry Ellenson seems very hypocritical to me.
Not at all. Henry Ellenson chose not to graduate but could have. Some JUCOs don't even have the option to graduate before their eligibility runs out. Students choose not to graduate for all sorts of reasons. That's not on the school. Taking a student who has no chance of graduating is on the school.
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You guys have spoken well to the issue. MU went to a 'policy' of only accepting players that could meet the academic requirements for graduation concurrent with the expiry of their athletic scholarship. Now of course there's wiggle room. Plenty of guys graduate in summer, for example. And actual graduation wasn't even required. The Jae situation is a perfect example of what wasn't allowed going forward. There was a belief that the prior policy (really, there wasn't one) had the potential to 'use' student athletes.
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You guys have spoken well to the issue. MU went to a 'policy' of only accepting players that could meet the academic requirements for graduation concurrent with the expiry of their athletic scholarship. Now of course there's wiggle room. Plenty of guys graduate in summer, for example. And actual graduation wasn't even required. The Jae situation is a perfect example of what wasn't allowed going forward. There was a belief that the prior policy (really, there wasn't one) had the potential to 'use' student athletes.
I'm sorry but anyone who thinks we used Jae is looking at this through a procedural lens. Jae used us and we benefitted.
If you want to give people like Jae a safety net guarantee his tuition through completion of degree - don't say he can't come to college.
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I'm sorry but anyone who thinks we used Jae is looking at this through a procedural lens. Jae used us and we benefitted.
If you want to give people like Jae a safety net guarantee his tuition through completion of degree - don't say he can't come to college.
Truth
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You are missing the fact that Jucos like Jae negatively impact Marquette's APR score. That being said, it's what Marquette's leaders want. So there it is.
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You are missing the fact that Jucos like Jae negatively impact Marquette's APR score. That being said, it's what Marquette's leaders want. So there it is.
Many things impact the APR including things that grad transfers and 'four year' players do as well. So no I am not missing it and I trust the program to manage it (Which they did).
I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish with the second half of your point other than being antagonistic. It is pretty obvious what is being chosen by the admin.
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I'm sorry but anyone who thinks we used Jae is looking at this through a procedural lens. Jae used us and we benefitted.
If you want to give people like Jae a safety net guarantee his tuition through completion of degree - don't say he can't come to college.
As Sultan said, I'm simply describing the way MU's administration sees it, especially as it pertains to the singular purpose for the university's existence.
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You are missing the fact that Jucos like Jae negatively impact Marquette's APR score. That being said, it's what Marquette's leaders want. So there it is.
How? I thought all he had to do we was leave in good standing, ie, complete his final 12 or 15 credits.
To the point of Henry, everyone knows he's going pro, save for an ACL tear. And if we take a Juco who is far behind but still qualifies, I would propose that he is able to return to campus following his eligibility being exhausted to continue to work towards his degree. Men's basketball players should have lifetime scholarships for undergraduate studies.
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As Sultan said, I'm simply describing the way MU's administration sees it, especially as it pertains to the singular purpose for the university's existence.
Agree to disagree. I think pretending HE is more likely to have a diploma than Jae also violates the singular purpose for the university's existence.
Also if we feel so bad about using him we should probably stop plastering his name on all our NBA advertisements for ex players. Wouldn't want to use him, you know?
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You guys are all missing the point. The administration simply thinks it's wrong and not in keeping with the mission. It's really as simple as that. Now someone can disagree but that's different.
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JS I know you are just explaining the universities position. I am just saying I disagree with it.
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To the point of Henry, everyone knows he's going pro, save for an ACL tear. And if we take a Juco who is far behind but still qualifies, I would propose that he is able to return to campus following his eligibility being exhausted to continue to work towards his degree. Men's basketball players should have lifetime scholarships for undergraduate studies.
Is that something that is allowable per NCAA rules?
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JS I know you are just explaining the universities position. I am just saying I disagree with it.
It's fine you disagree with the universities position, but comparing Henry's situation to the situation of a JUCO who it is literally impossible for them to graduate before their scholarship runs out is an apples to oranges comparison. One is the student's choice, the other the student has no choice.
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It's fine you disagree with the universities position, but comparing Henry's situation to the situation of a JUCO who it is literally impossible for them to graduate before their scholarship runs out is an apples to oranges comparison. One is the student's choice, the other the student has no choice.
Seems like a funny place for the university to take a stand against abusive NCAA regulations.
Why offer one year renewable scholarships. That takes away the students choice. Marquette should no longer do that either.
You don't need to respond. I understand why some think it's a justifiable position - I just reject that taking a stand makes a positive difference in a players life or for the university.
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Seems like a funny place for the university to take a stand against abusive NCAA regulations.
Why offer one year renewable scholarships. That takes away the students choice. Marquette should no longer do that either.
You don't need to respond. I understand why some think it's a justifiable position - I just reject that taking a stand makes a positive difference in a players life or for the university.
You sure you understand Crowder’s recruitment? And how it was going to be impossible for him to graduate, Buzz didn’t sweep the corners and chose to sweep the dirt under the bed.
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You sure you understand Crowder’s recruitment? And how it was going to be impossible for him to graduate, Buzz didn’t sweep the corners and chose to sweep the dirt under the bed.
It does not bother me at all if he could not graduate in 2 years. I don't care if it took him four years even though he could only play ball for two. Doesn't bother me as long as he meets the NCAA regulations.
Wally got offered a track scholly when he got cut. I'm sure they could find something for 'hypothetical' Jae that didn't go pro.
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It does not bother me at all if he could not graduate in 2 years. I don't care if it took him four years even though he could only play ball for two. Doesn't bother me as long as he meets the NCAA regulations.
Wally got offered a track scholly when he got cut. I'm sure they could find something for 'hypothetical' Jae that didn't go pro.
From what I understand that is not allowed because Crowder had exceeded eligibility, Wally had not. I mean I love Crowder and I’m glad he went to MU, but Buzz went against what MU wanted / wants.
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It does not bother me at all if he could not graduate in 2 years. I don't care if it took him four years even though he could only play ball for two. Doesn't bother me as long as he meets the NCAA regulations.
Agree 100%. Marquette's policy on this reeks of hypocrisy.
A one and done (and EVERYBODY at MU knew that was Ellenson's plan well before he was offered the opportunity to be a "student" athlete here) has to do just enough in his first semester (1.0, 12 hours?) to be eligible for semester #2. In semester #2 he doesn't even have to pretend to be a student and leaves school as soon as the season ends - 85-90% short of a degree. How this is more in line with our mission than helping a juco transfer get 90% of the way to the finish line on the school's dime totally escapes me. They can hide behind that "When we accepted him he had the "potential" to graduate in 4 years, but 'cmon. It's BS, and the administrative elites who push this stuff are full of it.
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Agree 100%. Marquette's policy on this reeks of hypocrisy.
A one and done (and EVERYBODY at MU knew that was Ellenson's plan well before he was offered the opportunity to be a "student" athlete here) has to do just enough in his first semester (1.0, 12 hours?) to be eligible for semester #2. In semester #2 he doesn't even have to pretend to be a student and leaves school as soon as the season ends - 85-90% short of a degree. How this is more in line with our mission than helping a juco transfer get 90% of the way to the finish line on the school's dime totally escapes me. They can hide behind that "When we accepted him he had the "potential" to graduate in 4 years, but 'cmon. It's BS, and the administrative elites who push this stuff are full of it.
Or Katin who completed one semester of grad school and high tailed it back to Cali to prep for his pro career.
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Not even, only need 10 credits to be a full time student.
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Or Katin who completed one semester of grad school and high tailed it back to Cali to prep for his pro career.
Yep, Doc - some "grad student", ai na?
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Not even, only need 10 credits to be a full time student.
Wow - back in the day going under 12 hours bought you a ticket to Viet Nam.
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I think the gripe should be as much, if not more, with the NCAA. Ellenson being "on track" even without intent to graduate doesn't hurt our APR and thus our ability to get into the NCAA Tournament to earn credits. Crowder, even if applying himself fully, was always going to negatively affect the APR.
Yes, it's a Marquette rule but it's also needed to remain compliant. Marquette will still take JUCO students, but JUCO basketball players need to be held to a different standard because of the additional scrutiny from the NCAA.
Get the NCAA to require players to simply maintain a GPA and take X number of credits and I'm sure that standard would relax. But as long as APR can jeopardize bids, this will likely be in place.
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Well said Brew. Nothing hypocritical about it. You may not like the policy, and that’s fine, but it isn’t “hypocritical” when applied to the Henry v Jae recruitments. There is logic behind it.
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Not even, only need 10 credits to be a full time student.
Sure? I really think it's 12 but I could be wrong.
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I'll readily concede that the NCAA is hypocritical, too - thought that was a given. But in spite of hypocritical NCAA rules, did we ever miss the tournament because of our APR? Or was this just an excuse to change policy by our administration?
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I'll readily concede that the NCAA is hypocritical, too - thought that was a given. But in spite of hypocritical NCAA rules, did we ever miss the tournament because of our APR? Or was this just an excuse to change policy by our administration?
We didn't, but the postseason APR bans were a new thing. We saw Connecticut, a team in our league for years, get an APR ban and we were trending in the wrong direction.
I know there were some donors that didn't like Buzz's JUCO recruiting from the start and didn't like the perceived stigma attached, but I think the decision made by administration was correct and based not only on stigma but on the good of the program.
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I'll readily concede that the NCAA is hypocritical, too - thought that was a given. But in spite of hypocritical NCAA rules, did we ever miss the tournament because of our APR? Or was this just an excuse to change policy by our administration?
Lenny, I don't think I ever heard the administration cite ANY NCAA rule. They simply thought it wasn't a good idea going forward after never (at least in many years) having experienced that issue before and not having a position on the matter. They had a meeting (or series of meetings) and made a decision. It was the culmination of a lengthy buildup given Buzz' pattern with JUCOs.
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We didn't, but the postseason APR bans were a new thing. We saw Connecticut, a team in our league for years, get an APR ban and we were trending in the wrong direction.
I know there were some donors that didn't like Buzz's JUCO recruiting from the start and didn't like the perceived stigma attached, but I think the decision made by administration was correct and based not only on stigma but on the good of the program.
Can you remind me again how a non-qualifying JUCO clears the NCAA eligibility center?
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Can you remind me again how a non-qualifying JUCO clears the NCAA eligibility center?
They have to graduate from the JUCO.
The problem is that many graduate from a JUCO while majoring in PE. Since Marquette doesn't offer the program, the PE credits will transfer as general credits but not toward specific requirements.
If they commit to MU early enough, like McKay did, MU can work with them on a plan while they are at the JUCO. But this is the reason that Jae hasn't graduated and why it took awhile for Buycks. DJO graduated right on time and JFB soon after his pro career started.
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Can you remind me again how a non-qualifying JUCO clears the NCAA eligibility center?
Jay Bee would have better knowledge than me ama I don't have time to research now, but I believe these are the key things:
The clearinghouse is only looking at eligibility. Do you have enough credits to be eligible with your class? So for Jae, it would've required (I believe) 48 credits. Because he wasted that first year, he had to make it all up as a sophomore. He did enough to get eligible, but once he arrives at Marquette it turns over from clearinghouse to APR.
Marquette requires 131 credits to graduate depending on his major. To get on track, Jae would've had to take 83 credits in two years while also playing basketball. It's virtually impossible. That's why many students take 5-6 years to graduate now, but the NCAA sticks to the 4 year expectation.
When you're at MU from the start, you need about 33 credits per year, which can be realistically attained with 13-15 credit semesters and a couple summer classes. But when you come in at the halfway mark and you're already 18 credits behind, that's really tough to make up.
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They have to graduate from the JUCO.
The problem is that many graduate from a JUCO while majoring in PE. Since Marquette doesn't offer the program, the PE credits will transfer as general credits but not toward specific requirements.
If they commit to MU early enough, like McKay did, MU can work with them on a plan while they are at the JUCO. But this is the reason that Jae hasn't graduated and why it took awhile for Buycks. DJO graduated right on time and JFB soon after his pro career started.
Here is what I dug up...it seems a lot more involved than your PE requirement specifications, although I am sure it has changed over time. Requirements in math, English and science. Progress toward a degree. Minimum GPA's of 2.5 in transferable credits.
https://www.msjc.edu/Athletics/StudentAthleteSupport/Documents/Transfer%20Tips-%20NCAA%20and%20NAIA.pdf
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And I believe the bans first became a regular thing around 2012, which was after Jae got here (UConn was the first big name). So timing wise, it all really kicked off and started to look like a major concern after Jae was already on campus.
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Well correct. They have to be on track to graduate. All schools are going to have a minimum GPA eligibility to transfer from a juco.
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It's fine you disagree with the universities position, but comparing Henry's situation to the situation of a JUCO who it is literally impossible for them to graduate before their scholarship runs out is an apples to oranges comparison. One is the student's choice, the other the student has no choice.
I think under NCAA rules(I could be wrong) is that you have 6 years to graduate to not negatively effect the APR. I assume Crowder could of graduated with some kind of degree in that time. Of course like Ellenson he was not going to hang around long enough to actually graduate. The university's position is somewhat suspect. Both could of graduated within the allowable time and neither probably will because they can earn bug money playing pro ball.
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I think under NCAA rules(I could be wrong) is that you have 6 years to graduate to not negatively effect the APR. I assume Crowder could of graduated with some kind of degree in that time. Of course like Ellenson he was not going to hang around long enough to actually graduate. The university's position is somewhat suspect. Both could of graduated within the allowable time and neither probably will because they can earn bug money playing pro ball.
Think Ellenson's situation is different if you get drafted. Don't know if I'm correct.