https://marquettenation.com/2017/11/15/a-definitive-history-about-how-thething-became-a-thing/
(https://m.popkey.co/d4b0d4/Oo04j.gif)
This is great. And now it's getting national attention from guys like Bilas. I love it.
J Mac just calls it a "rowsey".
Does #TheThing count for 2 point attempts as well or just 3's?
Quote from: cheese ball chaser on November 23, 2017, 05:06:38 PM
Does #TheThing count for 2 point attempts as well or just 3's?
It has to be behind the arc. Although I have just trademarked #minithing for a 2-point attempt.
I hate it. It's garbage basketball. Thankfully the NBA has fixed the rule. About a 1/3 of the fouls called are actually created by the defender. 2/3 are simply bad calls, Rowsey jumps into the player. That's not a foul.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 23, 2017, 07:18:29 PM
I hate it. It's garbage basketball. Thankfully the NBA has fixed the rule. About a 1/3 of the fouls called are actually created by the defender. 2/3 are simply bad calls, Rowsey jumps into the player. That's not a foul.
Disagreed. The only time Rowsey jumped into the defender the refs left it as a no call (which should've been considered a turnover but was a missed field goal instead). Most of the time the defender jumps forward on the Rowsey pump and Rowsey then jumps into the shot. That's on the defender.
The NBA fixed the swipe through by an offensive player who isn't even trying to shoot the ball. They just see the defender with their arm reached out into them, swing their arms sideways, and flop for a foul call. Now at least it's a side out of bounds.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 23, 2017, 07:18:29 PM
I hate it. It's garbage basketball. Thankfully the NBA has fixed the rule. About a 1/3 of the fouls called are actually created by the defender. 2/3 are simply bad calls, Rowsey jumps into the player. That's not a foul.
Its a foul every time and thats the reason its called that way. If he didnt shoot and pivoted n the defender landed on him u dont think that would be a foul either?
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on November 23, 2017, 07:21:50 PM
Its a foul every time and thats the reason its called that way. If he didnt shoot and pivoted n the defender landed on him u dont think that would be a foul either?
That's my point, defender wouldn't land on him if he pivoted. He steps back, pump fakes and leaps into him. It's garbage basketball, there's a reason NBA players don't do it, they changed the ridiculous swipe through and the "rowsey". You obviously don't watch the NBA, he wouldn't get that call.
Now god bless him for taking advantage of the rule but doesn't mean I have to like it. If he played for Wisconsin you guys would be 100% in agreement.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 23, 2017, 07:39:54 PM
That's my point, defender wouldn't land on him if he pivoted. He steps back, pump fakes and leaps into him. It's garbage basketball, there's a reason NBA players don't do it, they changed the ridiculous swipe through and the "rowsey". You obviously don't watch the NBA, he wouldn't get that call.
Now god bless him for taking advantage of the rule but doesn't mean I have to like it. If he played for Wisconsin you guys would be 100% in agreement.
What about the 3-4 times he's made the shot and multiple other times he's caught rim on it? Granted, it's not every time, but the kid does have a knack for sometimes getting #TheThing in the vicinity of the hoop.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 23, 2017, 07:47:42 PM
What about the 3-4 times he's made the shot and multiple other times he's caught rim on it? Granted, it's not every time, but the kid does have a knack for sometimes getting #TheThing in the vicinity of the hoop.
He almost hit another lefty the other night. That's my favorite.
Quote from: warriorchick on November 23, 2017, 05:24:18 PM
It has to be behind the arc. Although I have just trademarked #minithing for a 2-point attempt.
A 3 attempt gets #TheThing
A 2 attempt gets #thething
He needs to teach Markus the thing.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 23, 2017, 08:55:25 PM
A 3 attempt gets #TheThing
A 2 attempt gets #thething
Sorry eng. Now you get tremendous credit for being early in the game last year but this idea don't fly.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 23, 2017, 08:55:25 PM
A 3 attempt gets #TheThing
A 2 attempt gets #thething
That's a TwitterFail. Click either of them and both hashtags go to the same place.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 23, 2017, 07:18:29 PM
I hate it. It's garbage basketball. Thankfully the NBA has fixed the rule. About a 1/3 of the fouls called are actually created by the defender. 2/3 are simply bad calls, Rowsey jumps into the player. That's not a foul.
If the defender jumps vertically and Rowsey makes contact its not a foul. If the defender is also traveling horizontally and Rowsey jumps into him it is a foul in both the NBA and college.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 23, 2017, 09:08:42 PM
That's a TwitterFail. Click either of them and both hashtags go to the same place.
Then I withdraw my position and side with the used on 3pt shots only
Quote from: mu03eng on November 23, 2017, 09:14:53 PM
Then I withdraw my position and side with the used on 3pt shots only
Glad I don't do twitter. Scoop is bad enough.
SMH at the "garbage basketball" comment. Rowsey has mastered a skill completely within the rules. Not easy to do, hence why you don't see many other people doing what Rowsey does. I'll choose to give credit where credit is due.
Quote from: jsglow on November 23, 2017, 10:04:25 PM
Glad I don't do twitter. Scoop is bad enough.
You made scoop takes ;D
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 23, 2017, 07:18:29 PM
I hate it. It's garbage basketball. Thankfully the NBA has fixed the rule. About a 1/3 of the fouls called are actually created by the defender. 2/3 are simply bad calls, Rowsey jumps into the player. That's not a foul.
I'm closer to your way of thinking on this than it would seem a lot of people are. I am extremely tired of seeing fouls called on defenders who wouldn't contact the shooter if the shooter didn't lean in after the defender leaves the ground. I'm not saying it's every time, but it seems to be increasingly frequent. If the defender leaves his feet and contacts the shooter who is trying to get off a shot, it should be (and is) a foul. If the defender leaves his feet and contacts the shooter only because the shooter contorts his body and leans in to draw the contact -- sometimes abandoning any semblance of a normal shooting motion -- then it shouldn't be a foul. Compare the body position and motion of Rowsey when he has a wide-open three with the contortions he goes through when he does the thing. If he has to contort himself like that to draw the contact, I don't think it should be a foul.
Obviously, mileage may vary.
That said, I'm glad Rowsey is one of ours and don't fault him at all for taking full advantage of the rule as it is called. I'd just like to see them change how they call the rule.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on November 23, 2017, 09:12:32 PM
If the defender jumps vertically and Rowsey makes contact its not a foul. If the defender is also traveling horizontally and Rowsey jumps into him it is a foul in both the NBA and college.
Word.
When Waters tried to do "the thing" you could see the expression on Rowsey's face like "why the hell is this bastard stealing my thing?"
Quote from: mu03eng on November 23, 2017, 08:55:25 PM
A 3 attempt gets #TheThing
A 2 attempt gets #thething
sorry man-that's cute, but i gotta go with chick's. i have to stop there as my next comment would certainly draw the ban hammer from glow :D
Its bullshit ball, its like you have no other way to score so you take the free throws
Quote from: Wojos Blueprint on November 24, 2017, 07:40:04 PM
Its bullcrap ball, its like you have no other way to score so you take the free throws
Don't bite and it doesn't work.
Drawing the foul and going to the line where you shoot >90% is a very good move. Also, with a shallow team, it gives the team time to catch their breath. So, draw the foul, make the free throws, allow your teammates to catch their breath and set up their defense. Really no downside.
All you people who think it's crap basketball need to get over yourselves. Not all of us can be supremely gifted physical specimens that can take it to the hoop and dunk like Ners.
Quote from: Wojos Blueprint on November 24, 2017, 07:40:04 PM
Its bullcrap ball, its like you have no other way to score so you take the free throws
Is it bull crap ball when Matty Heldt gets knocked completely on his ass by a 5'11" 175 lb PG taking a charge?
Is it bullcrAp ball when Sam gets a fingertip on a ball going out of bounds only to point in Mu's direction in hopes of influencing the refs decision?
Is it bullcrAp ball when Haani throws his arms up coming off of a screen like he's been robbed?
It's basketball.
As someone said above, stop fouling Rowsey and he won't do it anymore. Until then, give me 9 out of 10 FTs every single game.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 24, 2017, 10:28:52 PM
Is it bull crap ball when Matty Heldt gets knocked completely on his ass by a 5'11" 175 lb PG taking a charge?
Is it bullcrAp ball when Sam gets a fingertip on a ball going out of bounds only to point in Mu's direction in hopes of influencing the refs decision?
Is it bullcrAp ball when Haani throws his arms up coming off of a screen like he's been robbed?
It's basketball.
As someone said above, stop fouling Rowsey and he won't do it anymore. Until then, give me 9 out of 10 FTs every single game.
Or 16 for 16! ;D
Seriously, in end of game situations where the opponent must foul to kill the clock, we've got 3 guys on the floor that simply won't miss at the line. That'll alone win us a game or three this year.
Quote from: Wojos Blueprint on November 24, 2017, 07:40:04 PM
Its bullcrap ball, its like you have no other way to score so you take the free throws
It's a bull crap call when Rowsey jumps into a vertical defender. But that's on the ref.
Otherwise it is perfectly fine.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 25, 2017, 08:22:17 AM
It's a bull crap call when Rowsey jumps into a vertical defender. But that's on the ref.
Otherwise it is perfectly fine.
Andrew also uses a very effective head fake. I think he goes up more vertically than others who kick out, and that is why he sells it and is able to get a shot off. Waters got this call but I thought is should have been offensive as he jumped into the defender with his shoulder.
I think the NBA does a better job with this call as they essentially don't give the shooter who kicks out the benefit. That said, Andrew is pretty scoutable but still is able to get that call.
Put me in the camp of those who are a big fan of "the thing".
AR has perfected "thething" to an art form and refs are there to call it as they see it. I am fine with that. It is AR's moment in the sun. We should all be so fortunate.
Quote from: jsglow on November 25, 2017, 08:16:35 AM
Or 16 for 16! ;D
Seriously, in end of game situations where the opponent must foul to kill the clock, we've got 3 guys on the floor that simply won't miss at the line. That'll alone win us a game or three this year.
If by "win" you mean "help maintain our lead in games"
#FTsNoMatta
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 26, 2017, 10:46:05 AM
If by "win" you mean "help maintain our lead in games"
#FTsNoMatta
So I'm actually interested in the #ftnomatta concept. Is there some advanced metric that demonstrates? Or is FT percentage and volume just so much less important than, say, offensive rebounds that it overwhelms? Educate me Mr. 'Yes, I must admit that the Vikings will win the division.' brother. :)
#FTratematta
#FT%nomatta*
*Although you want to shoot better than 0% to take advantage of FT rate
Quote from: Lazar's Headband on November 26, 2017, 11:03:39 AM
#FTratematta
#FT%nomatta*
*Although you want to shoot better than 0% to take advantage of FT rate
Saying it ain't substantiating it.
Quote from: jsglow on November 26, 2017, 11:01:08 AM
So I'm actually interested in the #ftnomatta concept. Is there some advanced metric that demonstrates? Or is FT percentage and volume just so much less important than, say, offensive rebounds that it overwhelms? Educate me Mr. 'Yes, I must admit that the Vikings will win the division.' brother. :)
Well, one does not need advanced metrics to know that FTs do matta when your team is on the line for 2 FTs with 1 second to go while being down 2 points. ;)
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 11:08:25 AM
Well, one does not need advanced metrics to know that FTs do matta when your team is on the line for 2 FTs with 1 second to go while being down 2 points. ;)
They wouldn't have mattered if you would have shot better earlier...or grabbed another offensive rebound...or turned the ball over less.
1. Great link from the OP. Thanks. The Randy Klotka twitterer desperately wanted it to be "that thing," but "the thing" won out, for whatever reason.
2. Rowsey has gotten the call even when he has leaped into a defender who isn't going forward. A couple times, the defender even seemed to be going backward when Rowsey leaped into him. Several times, he has drawn it from a defender going at him. If you're an MU fan, they're all good. If not, only the last looks like a foul.
FTs no matta! Ever! Even if the team doesn't get a single field goal, goes 100-for-100 from the line and the team wins 100-99, the FTs didn't matta! Learn basketball, everybody!! Free throws should be negative points they matta so little!!!
Quote from: jsglow on November 26, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Saying it ain't substantiating it.
http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/articles/20040601_roboscout.htm
"Teams that get to the line more are more effective than teams that make a higher percentage of their free throws. Game-by-game exceptions can definitely exist - there are plenty of games that are lost by a team missing its foul shots - but over the long haul, just getting to the line frequently wins a lot more games than missing a few freebies will lose."
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 11:31:29 AM
They wouldn't have mattered if you would have shot better earlier...or grabbed another offensive rebound...or turned the ball over less.
Sure, but in that case , it sure as heck matters.
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2017, 11:34:47 AM
1. Great link from the OP. Thanks. The Randy Klotka twitterer desperately wanted it to be "that thing," but "the thing" won out, for whatever reason.
2. Rowsey has gotten the call even when he has leaped into a defender who isn't going forward. A couple times, the defender even seemed to be going backward when Rowsey leaped into him. Several times, he has drawn it from a defender going at him. If you're an MU fan, they're all good. If not, only the last looks like a foul.
FTs no matta! Ever! Even if the team doesn't get a single field goal, goes 100-for-100 from the line and the team wins 100-99, the FTs didn't matta! Learn basketball, everybody!! Free throws should be negative points they matta so little!!!
scratching my head?? so, ya just won the game, but it doesn't matter? still scratching my head...is this some sort of twisted joke? what am i missing here? if free throws don't matter, why do they offer them on technical fouls?
i think there are a few scenarios where they have to matter or else, why not just go to the line and rifle it off the backboard and rim and see what happens? hell, just throw it out of bounds or hand it back to the opposing player ?-( what about intentional fouls? other team is losing and the whole deal is they want you to miss so they may get the ball back and score :o , either by getting to the line or hitting a shot-another duhhh ?-( what some are saying here is free throws no matta because you should shoot 100% or get all your offensive rebounds on misses and put them back in, don't turn the ball over...at all. i think some are minimizing them a little too much, eyn'a?
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 11:31:29 AM
They wouldn't have mattered if you would have shot better earlier...or grabbed another offensive rebound...or turned the ball over less.
So they don't matter... except when they do?
of course i'd rather have a 3 pointer instead ::)
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 26, 2017, 01:23:33 PM
of course i'd rather have a 3 pointer instead ::)
Until Rowsey's 3-point percentage gets above 90%, I'd rather have #thething.
Quote from: warriorchick on November 26, 2017, 01:31:06 PM
Until Rowsey's 3-point percentage gets above 90%, I'd rather have #thething.
yes, but if he makes the 3, the free throw doesn't matta according to those who know the game ok, now i get it...you just want to keep the game close and not win by so much-yous guyses you
FTsmatta
FT%nomatta
The way I understand #FTNoMatter is this:
Say the average team attempts 20 free throws in an average game. (I don't have the exact stat, but I think this should be pretty close.)
Last year, the best free-throw shooting team in Division I college basketball averaged 80% at the stripe. That's 16 for 20. The average team hits about 69%, or 14 of 20. So in an average game, the difference between the absolute best performance and merely average adds up to just 2 points. Make one more three and it's irrelevant.
"No Matter" does exaggerate the case. Of course free throws matter. If you didn't make a single free throw, you'd have to make up those 14 points somewhere else. But statistically free throw percentage isn't a big determining factor in winning games.
(I'm no statistician. So if I don't have this right, someone please correct me.)
When people say "no matter," they mean FT% doesn't impact the outcome of the game as much as other statistics. So the important statistic isn't that Rowsey is shooting FTs at 93% and went 100% v. LSU, it's that he has a season FTr of .566 and had 16 attempts v. LSU.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 11:31:29 AM
They wouldn't have mattered if you would have shot better earlier...or grabbed another offensive rebound...or turned the ball over less.
Yeah....but they didn't.
So, DO FTs matter if your team had a bad shooting day?
Do FTs matter if your team DIDNT grab that last offensive rebound?
Do FTs matter if your team turned the ball over one more time than usual?
If so, they sure as hell matter in each of those instances.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 26, 2017, 04:46:35 PM
Yeah....but they didn't.
So, DO FTs matter if your team had a bad shooting day?
Do FTs matter if your team DIDNT grab that last offensive rebound?
Do FTs matter if your team turned the ball over one more time than usual?
If so, they sure as hell matter in each of those instances.
Agree. Suspect most agree that FTs matter situationally as what happened earlier becomes rather irrelevant. From a statistical overview over time, not so much.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 26, 2017, 04:46:35 PM
Yeah....but they didn't.
So, DO FTs matter if your team had a bad shooting day?
Do FTs matter if your team DIDNT grab that last offensive rebound?
Do FTs matter if your team turned the ball over one more time than usual?
If so, they sure as hell matter in each of those instances.
It always is better to do something good than not. But that's not the point of the statement.
Quote from: rocket surgeon on November 26, 2017, 01:13:02 PM
scratching my head?? so, ya just won the game, but it doesn't matter? still scratching my head...is this some sort of twisted joke? what am i missing here? if free throws don't matter, why do they offer them on technical fouls?
i think there are a few scenarios where they have to matter or else, why not just go to the line and rifle it off the backboard and rim and see what happens? hell, just throw it out of bounds or hand it back to the opposing player ?-( what about intentional fouls? other team is losing and the whole deal is they want you to miss so they may get the ball back and score :o , either by getting to the line or hitting a shot-another duhhh ?-( what some are saying here is free throws no matta because you should shoot 100% or get all your offensive rebounds on misses and put them back in, don't turn the ball over...at all. i think some are minimizing them a little too much, eyn'a?
You know me pretty well, rocket. And yet you apparently forgot I don't use teal. Or do I?
eyayymasdnmnasdfsdfnasd'a?
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2017, 05:02:06 PM
You know me pretty well, rocket. And yet you apparently forgot I don't use teal. Or do I?
eyayymasdnmnasdfsdfnasd'a?
ok, but i thought i knew b-ball a little so i thought maybe i was missing something all those years. like when wilt, shaq could barely hit the floor when shooting free-ones everyone took note. conversely, when rick barry couldn't miss-shooting like a "girlie man". so he makes his son canyon do it too-only dude in the country who does that, i believe
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 04:54:45 PM
It always is better to do something good than not. But that's not the point of the statement.
Your statement of "well just make one more basket and we wouldn't be in this position" doesn't hold.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 26, 2017, 06:43:28 PM
Your statement of "well just make one more basket and we wouldn't be in this position" doesn't hold.
Of course it does. The point is that shooting the ball better, grabbing rebounds and not turning the ball over is more important than if you hit your free throws.
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2017, 11:34:47 AM
1. Great link from the OP. Thanks. The Randy Klotka twitterer desperately wanted it to be "that thing," but "the thing" won out, for whatever reason.
2. Rowsey has gotten the call even when he has leaped into a defender who isn't going forward. A couple times, the defender even seemed to be going backward when Rowsey leaped into him. Several times, he has drawn it from a defender going at him. If you're an MU fan, they're all good. If not, only the last looks like a foul.
FTs no matta! Ever! Even if the team doesn't get a single field goal, goes 100-for-100 from the line and the team wins 100-99, the FTs didn't matta! Learn basketball, everybody!! Free throws should be negative points they matta so little!!!
going backwards is also a foul. If a player has horizontal movement while jumping its a foul.
#FTsNoMatta means Team FT% is irrelevant to winning basketball games.
It's just a fact.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 07:02:50 PM
Of course it does. The point is that shooting the ball better, grabbing rebounds and not turning the ball over is more important than if you hit your free throws.
Grabbing just one more offensive rebound vs. was not more important than Rowsey going 16 for 16 vs. LSU.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 26, 2017, 07:28:15 PM
Grabbing just one more offensive rebound vs. was not more important than Rowsey going 16 for 16 vs. LSU.
I never claimed it was.
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 26, 2017, 07:28:15 PM
Grabbing just one more offensive rebound vs. was not more important than Rowsey going 16 for 16 vs. LSU.
Had he gone 8/16 we still win.
Anyone not understanding why free throw percentage doesn't matter in comparison to other game factors simply doesn't understand the game.
And the point is not snapshot scenarios, it is the totality of the game. Having the best or worst free throw percentage in the country will have minimal impact on your wins and losses.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 11:31:29 AM
They wouldn't have mattered if you would have shot better earlier...or grabbed another offensive rebound...or turned the ball over less.
Earlier, grabbing one more offensive rebound was so important that FTs wouldn't matter. You didn't make that claim?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2017, 07:58:13 PM
Had he gone 8/16 we still win.
Anyone not understanding why free throw percentage doesn't matter in comparison to other game factors simply doesn't understand the game.
And the point is not snapshot scenarios, it is the totality of the game. Having the best or worst free throw percentage in the country will have minimal impact on your wins and losses.
Yeah, I get it. I don't get the "if you just would have made one more shot,or grabbed just one more rebound" excuse
Quote from: WE R FINAL FOUR on November 26, 2017, 08:15:35 PM
Earlier, grabbing one more offensive rebound was so important that FTs wouldn't matter. You didn't make that claim?
Do you read the situation that was described? It had nothing to do with 16/16.
Just win, baby!
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 26, 2017, 07:21:16 PM
#FTsNoMatta means Team FT% is irrelevant to winning basketball games.
It's just a fact.
How dumb can you be.? If it's 1 second to go and......? F*ck her stats.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 08:45:35 PM
How dumb can you be.? If it's 1 second to go and......? F*ck her stats.
That's not his point. By this time you already know this and are just playing the intentional Luddite. Or you actually are one because math is hard for you.
My understanding is that since a good PPP is 1.0 (at least I think it is), going 50% at the line would keep you at that level. Hence, missing 2 free throws is no different than missing a jump shot or turnover. It's more important to have a high FTR% assuming you are over 50% since that would help your PPP.
I could be way off but hoping my novice knowledge of advanced stats is at least on the right track.
Quote from: cheebs09 on November 26, 2017, 08:48:55 PM
My understanding is that since a good PPP is 1.0 (at least I think it is), going 50% at the line would keep you at that level. Hence, missing 2 free throws is no different than missing a jump shot or turnover. It's more important to have a high FTR% assuming you are over 50% since that would help your PPP.
I could be way off but hoping my novice knowledge of advanced stats is at least on the right track.
You need to account for one and one situations and three point shots but essentially that's the point.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on November 26, 2017, 08:37:57 PM
Just win, baby!
Exactly. If we win, I don't really care if its due to free throws, defense, three-pointers, #TheThing, or anything else.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 08:24:01 PM
Do you read the situation that was described? It had nothing to do with 16/16.
Down 2 pts, 1 second on the clock.
Never said anything about 16/16.
Quote from: cheebs09 on November 26, 2017, 08:48:55 PM
My understanding is that since a good PPP is 1.0 (at least I think it is), going 50% at the line would keep you at that level. Hence, missing 2 free throws is no different than missing a jump shot or turnover. It's more important to have a high FTR% assuming you are over 50% since that would help your PPP.
I could be way off but hoping my novice knowledge of advanced stats is at least on the right track.
You're on the right track. AVERAGE ppp is about 1.05 these days (these days = past couple of years). If you're at 1.10 you're flirting with a top 50 ppp offense.
The reality is teams rarely shoot less than 60% FT over a season (in 2016-17, exactly one team shot worse than 61%).
At 60%, you're scoring around 1.2 ppp when you go to the line (front ends, and-one's, and offense rebounds alter it a bit, but largely offset). 1.2 ppp is elite offense. So, if you're one of the worst FT% teams in college basketball, going to the line is still elite offense. So, as you mentioned... FTrate has some importance (although it's by far the lowest of the four factors)...
FT% and a team's ppp do not correlate well. If I tell you a team is a top 30 eFG% team, it's a good guess that that team has a very good offensive ppp. If I tell you a team is a top 30 FT%, it doesn't tell you jack (e.g., #FTsNoMatta).
A dumb thing many people cry about is their team's FT%. "Team X only shoots 65% from the line! That will crush their season! They are FREE! Oh my gosh, how bad!!"
But the truth is we've seen 69% to 70% average FT% each year for decades. It's actually amazing (slight uptick to 70.4% last season). Free throws aren't free. The origin of the name comes from a time when free throws weren't shot - points were simply awarded based on a foul. Those were truly 'free' points. The name has stuck, but... it's completely bizarre and academically stupid that many argue they are losing games because their team shot 65% at the line instead of an average 70%.... yet many people do it.
#FTsNoMatta
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2017, 07:58:13 PM
Had he gone 8/16 we still win.
Although I get the "FT no matta" point, really I do, this is not necessarily true at all and Scoopers should stop saying it.
If he had missed a bunch of FTs down the stretch, it would have changed the strategy both teams would have used. Maybe in a close game, MU would have choked away the game.
It's like saying that a football team that won by 17 points "didn't even need" the 2 TDs it scored early in the 4th quarter. With 1:28 to play, the strategy is a lot different in a 34-17 game than in a 20-17 game.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 26, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
You're on the right track. AVERAGE ppp is about 1.05 these days (these days = past couple of years). If you're at 1.10 you're flirting with a top 50 ppp offense.
The reality is teams rarely shoot less than 60% FT over a season (in 2016-17, exactly one team shot worse than 61%).
At 60%, you're scoring around 1.2 ppp when you go to the line (front ends, and-one's, and offense rebounds alter it a bit, but largely offset). 1.2 ppp is elite offense. So, if you're one of the worst FT% teams in college basketball, going to the line is still elite offense. So, as you mentioned... FTrate has some importance (although it's by far the lowest of the four factors)...
FT% and a team's ppp do not correlate well. If I tell you a team is a top 30 eFG% team, it's a good guess that that team has a very good offensive ppp. If I tell you a team is a top 30 FT%, it doesn't tell you jack (e.g., #FTsNoMatta).
A dumb thing many people cry about is their team's FT%. "Team X only shoots 65% from the line! That will crush their season! They are FREE! Oh my gosh, how bad!!"
But the truth is we've seen 69% to 70% average FT% each year for decades. It's actually amazing (slight uptick to 70.4% last season). Free throws aren't free. The origin of the name comes from a time when free throws weren't shot - points were simply awarded based on a foul. Those were truly 'free' points. The name has stuck, but... it's completely bizarre and academically stupid that many argue they are losing games because their team shot 65% at the line instead of an average 70%.... yet many people do it.
#FTsNoMatta
JB, you are really missing the point on all these discussions. We get what you are saying from a global viewpoint. But but, situationally in many many games, FTs are damned important. Yah, those misses in the first half ar meaningless. Those misses in the last minute are monumental.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 09:40:13 PM
JB, you are really missing the point on all these discussions. We get what you are saying from a global viewpoint. But but, situationally in many many games, FTs are damned important. Yah, those misses in the first half ar meaningless. Those misses in the last minute are monumental.
No kidding. It's always better to hit shots than to miss them.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 09:40:13 PM
JB, you are really missing the point on all these discussions. We get what you are saying from a global viewpoint. But but, situationally in many many games, FTs are damned important. Yah, those misses in the first half ar meaningless. Those misses in the last minute are monumental.
No, I'm not missing the point. Again, the point is that #FTsNoMatta means TEAM FT% IS OF LITTLE TO NO RELEVANCE TO WINNING BASKETBALL GAMES. That's the point and it's factual.
If your team has a breakaway layup with 1 second left, down by one, and a player sneezes and doesn't get a good shot off, that sneeze was 'monumental'.
#FTsNoMatta
#SneezesCanMatta
Quote from: MU82 on November 26, 2017, 09:36:28 PM
It's like saying that a football team that won by 17 points "didn't even need" the 2 TDs it scored early in the 4th quarter. With 1:28 to play, the strategy is a lot different in a 34-17 game than in a 20-17 game.
No. Not analogous.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 09:40:13 PM
JB, you are really missing the point on all these discussions. We get what you are saying from a global viewpoint. But but, situationally in many many games, FTs are damned important. Yah, those misses in the first half ar meaningless. Those misses in the last minute are monumental.
And despite this, team free throw percentage still doesn't matter. A 46% free throw shooter can sink two while a 94% shooter can miss them both. And whether your team shoots 64% or 84%, it has no bearing on the outcome of the game or that individual action.
And those last minute misses are still less monumental than any single field goal miss that led up to it. Your argument indicates that it is more important to be a prisoner to the moment than to see the big picture.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 26, 2017, 10:07:03 PM
And despite this, team free throw percentage still doesn't matter. A 46% free throw shooter can sink two while a 94% shooter can miss them both. And whether your team shoots 64% or 84%, it has no bearing on the outcome of the game or that individual action.
And those last minute misses are still less monumental than any single field goal miss that led up to it. Your argument indicates that it is more important to be a prisoner to the moment than to see the big picture.
you are still missing the point. Whoever takes those situational FTs is unimportant. What's important is whether they are made or not. We all get Jay Bees global oversight view. But, a missed FT or two with seconds left is simply monumental.
Nukem. We get your point. It's not really relevant to JB's point. All end of game situations are important when it's close.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 26, 2017, 10:30:03 PM
Nukem. We get your point. It's not really relevant to JB's point. All end of game situations are important when it's close.
You are not getting our point. We have all agreed with Jay Bee's statistical overview but he simply ignores the situational stuff. FTs matter, they really do.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 10:38:41 PM
You are not getting our point. We have all agreed with Jay Bee's statistical overview but he simply ignores the situational stuff. FTs matter, they really do.
You are choosing to ignore the definition he provided.
Quote from: Jay Bee on November 26, 2017, 09:31:42 PM
You're on the right track. AVERAGE ppp is about 1.05 these days (these days = past couple of years). If you're at 1.10 you're flirting with a top 50 ppp offense.
The reality is teams rarely shoot less than 60% FT over a season (in 2016-17, exactly one team shot worse than 61%).
At 60%, you're scoring around 1.2 ppp when you go to the line (front ends, and-one's, and offense rebounds alter it a bit, but largely offset). 1.2 ppp is elite offense. So, if you're one of the worst FT% teams in college basketball, going to the line is still elite offense. So, as you mentioned... FTrate has some importance (although it's by far the lowest of the four factors)...
FT% and a team's ppp do not correlate well. If I tell you a team is a top 30 eFG% team, it's a good guess that that team has a very good offensive ppp. If I tell you a team is a top 30 FT%, it doesn't tell you jack (e.g., #FTsNoMatta).
A dumb thing many people cry about is their team's FT%. "Team X only shoots 65% from the line! That will crush their season! They are FREE! Oh my gosh, how bad!!"
But the truth is we've seen 69% to 70% average FT% each year for decades. It's actually amazing (slight uptick to 70.4% last season). Free throws aren't free. The origin of the name comes from a time when free throws weren't shot - points were simply awarded based on a foul. Those were truly 'free' points. The name has stuck, but... it's completely bizarre and academically stupid that many argue they are losing games because their team shot 65% at the line instead of an average 70%.... yet many people do it.
#FTsNoMatta
Good explanation. Makes perfect sense. Thanks.
All that said, I'm still really glad we can count on Rowsey/Howard/Hauser in the last couple of minutes especially.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 27, 2017, 05:52:15 AM
You are choosing to ignore the definition he provided.
Its a silly distinction. One could make similar arguments about all other facets of the game.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 27, 2017, 07:54:10 AM
Its a silly distinction. One could make similar arguments about all other facets of the game.
False. See my comments on eFG% on this thread.
There's a reason why FT% isn't one of the four factors in winning a b-ball game. That reason is that #FTsNoMatta
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 26, 2017, 10:38:41 PM
You are not getting our point. We have all agreed with Jay Bee's statistical overview but he simply ignores the situational stuff. FTs matter, they really do.
I'm not ignoring anything. I have specifically stated that it is better to do good things than bad things. So in this case it is better to make free throws than not make them. So yes, at the end of a game, it is good to hit free throws.
However over the course of a game, a team's FT% will almost always NOT determine who wins and loses. That is a fact. JB is right that it's an overrated statistic.
Quote from: Sultan of Slap O' Fivin' on November 27, 2017, 08:25:27 AM
I'm not ignoring anything. I have specifically stated that it is better to do good things than bad things. So in this case it is better to make free throws than not make them. So yes, at the end of a game, it is good to hit free throws.
However over the course of a game, a team's FT% will almost always NOT determine who wins and loses. That is a fact. JB is right that it's an overrated statistic.
So, instead of saying FTs no matta, he should be saying FT % no matta. In the course of a game, FTs situationally can and vbery often do matter a lot just the same as many other aspects of a game. Seen it happen many times over the years.
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 27, 2017, 09:12:59 AM
So, instead of saying FTs no matta, he should be saying FT % no matta. In the course of a game, FTs situationally can and vbery often do matter a lot just the same as many other aspects of a game. Seen it happen many times over the years.
Just like this thread, it's predicated on a hashtag. The hashtag doesn't work if you include a percent sign. Since it seems that FT% not mattering is widely accepted and has been repeatedly and thoroughly defined, why not just accept it and move on?
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 27, 2017, 09:12:59 AM
So, instead of saying FTs no matta, he should be saying FT % no matta.
It's just a statement he uses and has described multiple times, including in this thread. Don't be so literal.
Jimmy Mac is right, IMO.
I have to say #3throw makes for a much better hashtag than #thething #mubb
Two interesting thething related happenings last night.
1. Rowsey tried to thething somebody but the defender didn't bite. Rowsey made the left-handed 3-pointer anyway!
2. On D, Rowsey was himself thethinged. He was laughing after he was victimized by his own move. Probably won't be so humorous of it happens late in a 2-point game against Creighton, though.
Gotta agree with Mac, #threethrow is SO much better than #thething.
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2017, 10:51:12 AM
Two interesting thething related happenings last night.
1. Rowsey tried to thething somebody but the defender didn't bite. Rowsey made the left-handed 3-pointer anyway!
2. On D, Rowsey was himself thethinged. He was laughing after he was victimized by his own move. Probably won't be so humorous of it happens late in a 2-point game against Creighton, though.
Noticed both. Great stuff.
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2017, 10:51:12 AM
Two interesting thething related happenings last night.
1. Rowsey tried to thething somebody but the defender didn't bite. Rowsey made the left-handed 3-pointer anyway!
2. On D, Rowsey was himself thethinged. He was laughing after he was victimized by his own move. Probably won't be so humorous of it happens late in a 2-point game against Creighton, though.
Also, during the broadcast the TV team said that Rowsey calls his move #thething.
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2017, 10:51:12 AM
Two interesting thething related happenings last night.
1. Rowsey tried to thething somebody but the defender didn't bite. Rowsey made the left-handed 3-pointer anyway!
2. On D, Rowsey was himself thethinged. He was laughing after he was victimized by his own move. Probably won't be so humorous of it happens late in a 2-point game against Creighton, though.
1. #theotherthing
2. #thereversething
Quote from: MU82 on November 30, 2017, 10:51:12 AM
2. On D, Rowsey was himself thethinged. He was laughing after he was victimized by his own move. Probably won't be so humorous of it happens late in a 2-point game against Creighton, though.
Eh, not a big deal if the field goal is missed. #FTsNoMatta