It's easy to be hyperbolistically pessimistic when we've dropped 4 of 5 playing 4 of the 5 bottom teams in the standings, so what the hey.
IF we miss not only the tourney, but also the NIT how will that hurt recruiting? Last year (say what you will) could at least be pointed at as a "step forward" with the program in the "right direction". If we finish sub-500 in conference this year and miss any meaningful post BE basketball, what narrative do you sell to recruits? Everyone wants to come to a place where they'll win.
And if we can't keep recruiting at the level we have been, it seems like we start a real downward spiral into the morass of prolonged mediocrity.
not only that, but ticket sales will continue to decrease. If the diehard fans are losing faith, I doubt even the casual fans will stick around much longer.
I'm willing to give the chance of having a program fully implemented (3 years versus a full 4). Team lacks leadership now and I have to believe part of that is the old regime mixed with the new mixed with the bridge players like Reinhardt.
But admit these ups and downs are darn frustrating
So do you all suggest firing Wojo?
Quote from: GoldenEagle2002 on February 11, 2017, 02:12:56 PM
So do you all suggest firing Wojo?
No? But he will be starting to get very warm after this year if we fail to make progress. If things aren't looking up next year, then well? I'll talk then.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on February 11, 2017, 02:20:08 PM
No? But he will be starting to get very warm after this year if we fail to make progress. If things aren't looking up next year, then well? I'll talk then.
I'm with you on that. Changeover is tough. I realize Buzz hit it pretty quick and so our expectations are high. But gotta get the right rotation and mix. I just wanted to get in this year. Just get in but next best will a solid NIT showing. Patience. Which is hard
Hard to see how anyone in the MU family is real thrilled at this point.
This is a huge stretch. From needing 5-5 to make the NCAA 2 weeks ago to needing 4-1 today? The season's not done, but that clear path is now a murky slog.
We're in position to undo a lot of goodwill. I'm not close to pulling the plug, but today is the most pessimistic I've felt since Buzz to Va Tech was announced.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 02:48:16 PM
This is a huge stretch. From needing 5-5 to make the NCAA 2 weeks ago to needing 4-1 today? The season's not done, but that clear path is now a murky slog.
We're in position to undo a lot of goodwill. I'm not close to pulling the plug, but today is the most pessimistic I've felt since Buzz to Va Tech was announced.
If you aren't willing to pull the plug then you are the eternal optimist. I'm sure they will win another game but given the recent performance 2-3 wins is the ceiling. After each misstep I thought (hoped) they would come out and play with their hair on fire the next game but no sign of that happening.
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
Quote from: sailwi on February 11, 2017, 02:59:50 PM
If you aren't willing to pull the plug then you are the eternal optimist. I'm sure they will win another game but given the recent performance 2-3 wins is the ceiling. After each misstep I thought (hoped) they would come out and play with their hair on fire the next game but no sign of that happening.
It's that I still realize making the NIT is progress this year, and that's still attainable. It's not what any of us wanted, but objectively, if the question in November was "is making the NIT without Henry an improvement on 2016?" the absolute obvious answer is yes.
I try not to adjust my expectations because of a good day or two. Yes, I at one point hoped we could be a 6 seed and top 2-3 in the league, but the realist in me knows that NIT is progress just like First Four or traditional NCAA bid would be progress.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
Sam needs to push through the freshmen wall and put in the work in the offseason to work on his many deficiencies. He has been scouted and shut down and Wojo is not capable of helping him get through it at the moment. Chucking up more shots, is definitely not the answer.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
Since they rarely, if ever, play together then I have no idea why his family would be concerned about this.
Sam played 20 minutes today and shot the ball twice. That's not because he was open.
Quote from: GoldenEagle2002 on February 11, 2017, 02:12:56 PM
So do you all suggest firing Wojo?
No, but the temperature needs to elevate under his ass.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
LOL--This is so stupid--you have no idea on the 'notes' that Sams parents and brothers are taking. Just dumb.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 03:12:21 PM
It's that I still realize making the NIT is progress this year, and that's still attrightble. It's not what any of us wanted, but objectively, if the question in November was "is making the NIT without Henry an improvement on 2016?" the absolute obvious answer is yes.
I try not to adjust my expectations because of a good day or two. Yes, I at one point hoped we could be a 6 seed and top 2-3 in the league, but the realist in me knows that NIT is progress just like First Four or traditional NCAA bid would be progress.
Yeah, but are 2 more wins enough for the NIT? (and getting two will be no cake walk).
Maybe this will be a wake-up call and we'll run the table.
Quote from: We R Final Four on February 11, 2017, 03:34:22 PM
LOL--This is so stupid--you have no idea on the 'notes' that Sams parents and brothers are taking. Just dumb.
OK. You're entitled to think that. I know what I know. You remain resolute on your high horse.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
Great analysis. Hauser was on the court a lot, he can't create his shot and every team switches now to stop the 3. It's not Wojo's fault he's a swinging door on defense and can't rebound. He needs to put on 20 pounds, he'll be tough then.
I am not saying Wojo deserves to be fired but I don't agree with the people who say he HAS to stay because firing him would mean starting over. Starting over from what? We stink right now, the freshmen look more and more like they are not Big East-caliber players and unless at least two of next year's class are ready to step in and play 35 minutes night, we'll be right back 7th or 8th in the conference again. I fear there's going to be a lot of pressure on the young players to rescue his job next year.
Quote from: ecompt on February 11, 2017, 03:56:18 PM
I am not saying Wojo deserves to be fired but I don't agree with the people who say he HAS to stay because firing him would mean starting over. Starting over from what? We stink right now, the freshmen look more and more like they are not Big East-caliber players and unless at least two of next year's class are ready to step in and play 35 minutes night, we'll be right back 7th or 8th in the conference again. I fear there's going to be a lot of pressure on the young players to rescue his job next year.
This. There's a contingent here that needs to read up on the sunk cost fallacy. Having to "start over" is not reason not to get rid of a coach. Thinking the coach might still realize some potential is a reason not to get rid of a coach. But when you think a coach has fully reached his potential and you're not happy with it, you fire him as soon as you can.
Quote from: ecompt on February 11, 2017, 03:56:18 PM
I am not saying Wojo deserves to be fired but I don't agree with the people who say he HAS to stay because firing him would mean starting over. Starting over from what? We stink right now, the freshmen look more and more like they are not Big East-caliber players and unless at least two of next year's class are ready to step in and play 35 minutes night, we'll be right back 7th or 8th in the conference again. I fear there's going to be a lot of pressure on the young players to rescue his job next year.
This is spot-on. This roster is nothing special, the team is nothing special, and it's not clear that '17-18 will be an improvement. Doesn't mean I support a change, but it wouldn't set the program back much.
We have a week off. I hope we straighten this mess out. Also according
to a rivals poll, Greg Elliott is 80% Michigan State, MU 20%. Still rooting
for Wojo, but it's still "what have you done for me lately" and I don't want
to restart again.
Quote from: ecompt on February 11, 2017, 03:56:18 PM
I am not saying Wojo deserves to be fired but I don't agree with the people who say he HAS to stay because firing him would mean starting over. Starting over from what? We stink right now, the freshmen look more and more like they are not Big East-caliber players and unless at least two of next year's class are ready to step in and play 35 minutes night, we'll be right back 7th or 8th in the conference again. I fear there's going to be a lot of pressure on the young players to rescue his job next year.
I'm getting worried that Hauser didn't hit some "Freshman wall" but is just a very limited player. How easily UW made him invisible should have been a warning sign.
There is a great deal of work still ahead for this program. I'm not giving up on Wojo, but think it is fair to be highly concerned. For those with high expectations for next year, I think you have very blind faith. Losing Luke is going to hurt far more than most want to admit.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:43:24 PM
OK. You're entitled to think that. I know what I know. You remain resolute on your high horse.
Not on a high horse at all. I think you know very little on the situation.
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 04:10:53 PM
There is a great deal of work still ahead for this program. I'm not giving up on Wojo, but think it is fair to be highly concerned. For those with high expectations for next year, I think you have very blind faith. Losing Luke is going to hurt far more than most want to admit.
Well if this year's freshmen progress like last year's we are in for a whole new world of hurt, and we won't have to worry about "starting over."
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 04:10:53 PM
There is a great deal of work still ahead for this program. I'm not giving up on Wojo, but think it is fair to be highly concerned. For those with high expectations for next year, I think you have very blind faith. Losing Luke is going to hurt far more than most want to admit.
I absolutely disagree with the feelings on luke, no surprise? I feel the same way with jjj. I feel they are both horrible for the program. Luke is a total choker. If he had a wide open layup to win a game hed find a way to choke it away and jjj is simply the lowest IQ player i have ever seen in 40 years of follwing MU. Neither one of them show a single ounce of leadership, they are not part of the solution, in fact they are the biggest part of the problem. While they might have some of the most ability these type of players are toxic to winning. They are not winners. Again probably wonderful kids but they do none of the things that winning players do. They are our leaders, we are where we are because of them, they need to go.
Quote from: 1SE on February 11, 2017, 03:41:51 PM
Yeah, but are 2 more wins enough for the NIT? (and getting two will be no cake walk).
Maybe this will be a wake-up call and we'll run the table.
I think 4 locks us into the tournament, 3 has us either on the bubble and in or a solid NIT seed, 2 gives us a legit NIT chance depending on how the auto bids tumble.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 05:05:32 PM
I think 4 locks us into the tournament, 3 has us either on the bubble and in or a solid NIT seed, 2 gives us a legit NIT chance depending on how the auto bids tumble.
Very soft bubble this year but we need to win games. Agree on the number of wins for NCAA. Ever since the NIT changed their rules to favor mid-majors, I don't think we are in the NIT with 2 wins. A 17 win season is just not enough. I think it is 4 = NCAA, 3=NIT 2= 4year drought. With likelihood being 10%/35%/55%.
Luke is a very legit D1 center. He may be frustrating to many on here but it does not take away the fact he is legit. Will take it a step further and say one of the better ones MU has had over the past 20+ years.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
Because you think that Reinhardt is a freshman?
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 05:23:02 PM
Luke is a very legit D1 center. He may be frustrating to many on here but it does not take away the fact he is legit. Will take it a step further and say one of the better ones MU has had over the past 20+ years.
Luke was 3-9 today all from less than 5 feet and he cannot play defnse
Quote from: mufanatic on February 11, 2017, 05:19:49 PM
Very soft bubble this year but we need to win games. Agree on the number of wins for NCAA. Ever since the NIT changed their rules to favor mid-majors, I don't think we are in the NIT with 2 wins. A 17 win season is just not enough. I think it is 4 = NCAA, 3=NIT 2= 4year drought. With likelihood being 10%/35%/55%.
I do think BET wins help us more for the NIT. Get 2 + 1 at MSG and I think we're pretty solid for the NIT. I'm less confident about 3 + 1 = NCAA.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 11, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
Luke was 3-9 today all from less than 5 feet and he cannot play defnse
Fisher is a very solid center who will be missed a lot next year. He could of been more but shoulder injuries robbed him of his ability to get stronger during off-seasons.
I think this year's the team has showed progress. We beat the number one team in the country. We got thumped badly today, but that happen much more often last year. Wojo does have to tweek his recruiting emphasis. We need a real point guard and more athletic physical front court players.
Sand Knit
Like it or not Luke is legit D1 center. I have seen as many stiffs play that position over the last 40 years as I did QB's pre Favre. Trust me, I am going out to buy a Luke jersey anytime soon but he is better than most.
Quote from: mufanatic on February 11, 2017, 05:19:49 PM
Very soft bubble this year but we need to win games. Agree on the number of wins for NCAA. Ever since the NIT changed their rules to favor mid-majors, I don't think we are in the NIT with 2 wins. A 17 win season is just not enough. I think it is 4 = NCAA, 3=NIT 2= 4year drought. With likelihood being 10%/35%/55%.
I agree with your assessment.
The next thing to consider is how many Scoop trolls show up for each of those win scenarios:
4 wins = -10, 3 wins = -5, 2 wins = +15, 1 or less = troll angry mob
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 05:23:02 PM
Luke is a very legit D1 center. He may be frustrating to many on here but it does not take away the fact he is legit. Will take it a step further and say one of the better ones MU has had over the past 20+ years.
He's legit. Over the last 20 years I would rank Robert Jackson and Davante Gardner as better.
Vinnie
Gardner and Jackson different players but similar impact. My pony is based on him being a true 5. I prefer a Jackson or Gardner style but Luke is a true 5 and a good one by today's standards.
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 11, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
Luke was 3-9 today all from less than 5 feet and he cannot play defnse
Again, wait till next year and Heldt is the starting center for first ten games until Froling comes on board. MU will miss Luke a lot more than you think.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on February 11, 2017, 06:32:33 PM
He's legit. Over the last 20 years I would rank Robert Jackson and Davante Gardner as better.
Jackson for sure, Davante...maybe. As slow laterally as Luke is, Davante was slower and less of a defender. And as amazing as Gardner was on offense, Luke was far more reliable from the field. Not sure how or why, and Davante made some crazy shots look effortless, but I think Luke just doesn't make his shots as circus like.
Gardner was better from the line, but FT% no matta. Gardner was helped massively by having Otule available for defensive possessions. Total package, I think it's Luke.
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 05:23:02 PM
Luke is a very legit D1 center. He may be frustrating to many on here but it does not take away the fact he is legit. Will take it a step further and say one of the better ones MU has had over the past 20+ years.
Ehh Davante was heads and heels better. Robert Jackson maybe. Otule was much better at rebounding and defense (Didn't need him to score)
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
But that will clear as Reinhardt is a bridge and Hauser is a freshman. I think the Hausers are smart enough to see they can be the future at MU.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 11, 2017, 03:12:21 PM
It's that I still realize making the NIT is progress this year, and that's still attrightble. It's not what any of us wanted, but objectively, if the question in November was "is making the NIT without Henry an improvement on 2016?" the absolute obvious answer is yes.
I try not to adjust my expectations because of a good day or two. Yes, I at one point hoped we could be a 6 seed and top 2-3 in the league, but the realist in me knows that NIT is progress just like First Four or traditional NCAA bid would be progress.
Thank you for your sanity. I agree. Want the NCAA bad but NIT after losing a 1 and done is progress.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
I don't think Sam is the type of player to worry about that kind of stuff.
Quote from: 1SE on February 11, 2017, 04:00:12 PM
This. There's a contingent here that needs to read up on the sunk cost fallacy. Having to "start over" is not reason not to get rid of a coach. Thinking the coach might still realize some potential is a reason not to get rid of a coach. But when you think a coach has fully reached his potential and you're not happy with it, you fire him as soon as you can.
Sunk cost fallacy is about resources already invested. Not about the future cost it would take to make a change.
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 05:23:02 PM
Luke is a very legit D1 center. He may be frustrating to many on here but it does not take away the fact he is legit. Will take it a step further and say one of the better ones MU has had over the past 20+ years.
Goose and I don't always agree, but I definitely agree with this.
Quote from: muhoops1 on February 11, 2017, 03:01:58 PM
I would be worried when Sam looks at his line and sees 2 shot attempts and Reinhardt launching 11. His parents and brother certainly take note
Katin is gone after this year. Not a big deal.
Actually, Hauser is seeing more time then I expected him to see this year.
He's integral to MU's success this year and next.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on February 11, 2017, 09:08:59 PM
Ehh Davante was heads and heels better. Robert Jackson maybe. Otule was much better at rebounding and defense (Didn't need him to score)
Lower eFG%, at best equal rebounder, far far worse defender, and inferior conditioning. I get that Davante made some crazy circus shots and seemed kind a magical dancing bear at times, but as far as actually playing the game of basketball, how was he definitively better than Luke?
I'll grant that his scoring ability was more diverse, but I don't think it was in any way more effective, unless you are talking about getting to and converting at the line, to which I'd ask "who cares?"
Quote from: Mr. Sand-Knit on February 11, 2017, 04:27:59 PM
I absolutely disagree with the feelings on luke, no surprise? I feel the same way with jjj. I feel they are both horrible for the program. Luke is a total choker. If he had a wide open layup to win a game hed find a way to choke it away and jjj is simply the lowest IQ player i have ever seen in 40 years of follwing MU. Neither one of them show a single ounce of leadership, they are not part of the solution, in fact they are the biggest part of the problem. While they might have some of the most ability these type of players are toxic to winning. They are not winners. Again probably wonderful kids but they do none of the things that winning players do. They are our leaders, we are where we are because of them, they need to go.
I have not hesitated to share my dissatisfaction about coaches who are paid millions of dollars to put players in a position to maximize their talents. However, it is over the top to direct venom at college kids, who are a) giving max effort and b) have demonstrated their ability and basketball competiveness. These players have to play within the concept defined by the coaches. The Big East is a big boy league and there will be times other teams simply get the best of us .
Bad feelings are pervasive and deserved. The team is giving its all and the coaches are saying they aren't playing tough enough. Face the facts we don't have a "4" and don't stand a chance in the Big East if we don't hit 50-60% of our shots. Starting over would equate to another 5 years of pain with 5000 less fans including me, a 3 decade+ season ticket holder. This is on the recruiting period. We have no chance but to see what next year brings.
If we shoot well, we have a chance. We would be a heck of a Horizon League team and would make the Dance.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 11, 2017, 10:01:21 PM
Sunk cost fallacy is about resources already invested. Not about the future cost it would take to make a change.
Dear god no. "We can't fit Wojo because we're 3 years into a rebuild and would have to start over if we did" is CLASSIC sunk cost fallacy IF you think Wojo isn't going to achieve whatever it is you want him to achieve. The argument people are making here is to "stick with" Wojo because of the time we've already put into him - which is a sunk cost. Like I said, if you still think better days are coming with Wojo, then fine, stick with him. But once you think he's performing at his potential, and you're not happy wth that potential, it's time to cut bait immediately - even if doing so makes you worse off in the short term.
Quote from: #UnleashRowsey on February 11, 2017, 09:08:59 PM
Ehh Davante was heads and heels better. Robert Jackson maybe. Otule was much better at rebounding and defense (Didn't need him to score)
Otule was not anywhere as an effective basketball player as Luke.
Otule in the Fischer conversation??? Smh
Defensively otule is head and shoulders better. One iof the biggest weaknesses is the absolute void defnsively in the middle.
Luke scores more than otule. Also gets more oppotunities . Unfotunately this year we dont really need any more offense we need defense n luke brings none, prolly the worst defensive center at MU since Rod Grosse.
Plz dont throw out the blocked shots, 2-3-4 blocks a agame doesnt make up for the blow bys the other 99% of the time he is in there. Additionally due to us not having a rebounding 4 the fact that he gets thrown around like a rag doll really hurts the rebounding effort.
You clearly don't remember Otule very well. Love the kid but he had better people around him. Luke would eat his lunch 1 on 1.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 12, 2017, 10:34:29 AM
You clearly don't remember Otule very well. Love the kid but he had better people around him. Luke would eat his lunch 1 on 1.
I agree. Maybe Chris could have been as good as Luke if he didn't get injured in the Garden - but it's not even close.
Quote from: Goose on February 11, 2017, 05:23:02 PM
Luke is a very legit D1 center. He may be frustrating to many on here but it does not take away the fact he is legit. Will take it a step further and say one of the better ones MU has had over the past 20+ years.
Frustrating? It certainly isn't fun watching a kid miss 1 foot shots consistently. He hurt us big time in this game.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 12, 2017, 10:34:29 AM
You clearly don't remember Otule very well. Love the kid but he had better people around him. Luke would eat his lunch 1 on 1.
+1
Team defense on this team is abysmal from running undersized Rowsey at taller shooters to not being able to stretch cover 3pt shooters to cutting off the man on a drive.