KO was brought up as something of a savior for the program in the "Perspective on Rebuilding" thread. Goose, a frequent critic of Wojo, called KO's rebuild of the program "remarkable."
Here in a stand-alone thread, let's take a quick look at some facts, shall we?
Kevin O'Neill arrived for the 1989-90 season after Bob Dukiet went 13-15 the previous year. KO inherited Tony Smith, an outstanding player who would go on to play a decade-plus in the NBA. I think most would agree that Smith was much, much better than any player Wojo inherited from Buzz. In total, 4 of the top 5 scorers from Dukiet's last team were back to play for KO: Smith, Powell, Baldwin and Anglavar. KO went 15-14 with that team. I'm guessing that if Scoop had existed back then, that would have been considered a failure (or at best a mediocrity), although many would have argued that it's unfair to judge a first-year coach.
Wojo, meanwhile, arrived following a season in which Buzz's final team underperformed significantly. The top two scorers from that team graduated. The top returning scorers were Mayo, Burton and Derrick. It was a trainwreck waiting to happen ... and it did, with a 13-19 record. Most Scoopers knew that and gave Wojo a pass, although there were some who found a way to argue that Wojo hadn't used the "talent" properly.
In 1990-91, with Powell and Anglavar still playing, KO brought in a superb freshman class that included Key, McIlvaine and Logterman. A great transfer, Ron Curry, also became eligible. Even if most of the talent was in its first year, nobody would dispute that team had talent. KO went 11-18 with that group. Scoop, had it existed, would have not been kind. I'm guessing many would have already concluded that he wasn't the right man for the job.
Wojo also brought in significant talent for his second season, including the school's first Mickey D boy in decades. MU improved to 20-13 and doubled its conference win total. The team also won a lot of close games, which usually is a sign of at least decent coaching; Wojo rarely was given credit for those, but he was blamed for the close losses that kept the team out of the tourney.
In KO's Year 3, with a ton of now-veteran talent and with him being more experienced himself, KO only managed to go 16-13. He got the team to the NIT, winning one and losing one. I think most will agree that CUSA back then was not as good as the Big East now and that getting in the NIT then was waaaay easier for a "name school" than it is now. I also think most will agree that a significant number of Scoopers would have concluded, based upon that record, that KO was not the long-term answer.
Wojo is in Year 3 now. He has some pretty nice pieces, though it's hard to say this group is better than the Key-McIlvaine-Curry-Logterman-Miller crew that KO coached to 16-13 in 1991-92. It's too early to say what Wojo will accomplish this season, but I'd be willing to bet it will be better than the .551 winning percentage KO had in Year 3.
In Year 4, KO finally won 20 games and got MU back to the NCAAs. We lost in the first round. Those who had defended KO all along would have said he really did turn around the program. Detractors - and there would have been many on Scoop - would have said, "We'll see."
Finally, in Year 5, KO got us to the Sweet 16 with one of the great upset victories in MU history. It was a fine team, led by the three seniors KO had brought in three years earlier, as well as junior star Tony Miller.
Cashing in on finally being successful, KO immediately bolted for Tennessee. He has not distinguished himself as either a college coach or pro coach since - and "not distinguished himself" is probably being far too kind.
Again, I know KO brought energy to a moribund program. And sure, it's fun to have a coach with that kind of personality.
But to suggest that KO inherited a worse situation than Wojo - I mean, Tony Smith alone made KO's situation significantly better - and that KO turned the program around super-fast compared to some kind of looming disaster that Wojo is presiding over ... I just don't see how facts support that narrative at all.
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate what KO did. Loved the Sweet 16 team.
I also appreciated what Crean and Williams did here.
And I think all of us will come to appreciate Wojo. Obviously, that is just my opinion at this point. "We'll see" is a fair assessment. "He doesn't have what it takes and we're doomed ... unlike the savior KO" doesn't seem quite as fair.
Quote from: MU82 on December 14, 2016, 10:06:12 AM
In KO's Year 3, with a ton of now-veteran talent and with him being more experienced himself, KO only managed to go 16-13. He got the team to the NIT, winning one and losing one. I think most will agree that CUSA back then was not as good as the Big East now and that getting in the NIT then was waaaay easier for a "name school" than it is now. I also think most will agree that a significant number of Scoopers would have concluded, based upon that record, that KO was not the long-term answer.
.
Great post, and the NIT did not have the automatic invites that it does now
+1,000
Great post with fair perspective. I think the differences are that Dukiet was viewed as a trainwreck while Buzz was viewed as a success. However, the reality is that Dukiet left the program in better shape than Buzz did. As good as Buzz was during his S16/S16/E8 run, his back-to-back empty recruiting classes of 2011 and 2012 savaged the program for any replacement. That's why I ask what more Wojo should have done by now.
Wojo inherited a program with more recent success and name cachet, but less on-court talent, while KO got the talent but the name had fallen off after three straight tournaments with our name not being called.
MU 82
You are flat out wrong on saying I am frequent critic of Wojo and would appreciate it if you refrained from saying that. As for KO and what he inherited, if you do not realize the state of the program at that time and the horrible place it was in, you flat out know nothing about college basketball. KO saved a program that was on life support and that is a fact.
Goose, I don't think there can be any real arguing the talent discrepancy, however. There were plenty of bigger off-court issues, and survival by KO is to be lauded, but no matter what people want to say about high school rankings, Wojo took over a team that had virtually no chance to win. Was there some talent? Sure, but none of the experienced players had much talent, while none of the talented players had much experience.
Quote from: MU82 on December 14, 2016, 10:06:12 AM
In KO's Year 3, with a ton of now-veteran talent and with him being more experienced himself, KO only managed to go 16-13. He got the team to the NIT, winning one and losing one. I think most will agree that CUSA back then was not as good as the Big East now and that getting in the NIT then was waaaay easier for a "name school" than it is now. I also think most will agree that a significant number of Scoopers would have concluded, based upon that record, that KO was not the long-term answer.
I agree with the premise of this post. However this part is inaccurate. MU did not go to the NIT in this year even though it was easier to get in than it is now. They played in the C-USA tournament but missed the post season entirely.
MU82
Please do a quick check on attendance pre KO and post KO, quality of non-conference schedule and upgrades made to the program during his tenure. There are plenty of things to factor in aside from win/loss record. There was a poll on here last month on what NC record would be some folks thought 1-4 or 0-5 and we played one ranked team at home.
I think the key is to look at it from a skill set standpoint. What skill sets were they good at and what we they bad at. Then what skill sets were required at that point in time.
Let's say a D1 coach uses the following skill sets to various degrees (and there is no right level/amount of proficiency at these skill sets):
-Talent Evaluation and Management (recruiting, player development, etc)
-In-game tactician (game strategy, player usage, game management, etc)
-Game Preparation (game planning, offensive and defensive philosophy, etc)
-Marketing (program awareness, gladhanding donors, face of the program, etc)
-CEO functions (staff management, managing up the organization, etc)
-Intangibles (we could also call this the "McGuire skill set")
The jury is out on Wojo for game prep and in-game tactician, while I think KO is good to great at that. Whereas I think, contrary to MUNY's harping, I think Wojo's intangibles and Talent Evaluation skils are much better than KO (and way better than Dukiet).
KO didn't necessarily have a talent problem, he had a development and usage issue. Wojo had a significant talent problem. Different skill sets and importance.
Thoughts?
mu03eng
For the record, as much as I appreciated KO's work here, I thought he was a below average game coach or ball mind when he was here. His style of play was hard to watch and coaching games was far from his strength, IMO.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2016, 10:19:59 AM
Goose, I don't think there can be any real arguing the talent discrepancy, however. There were plenty of bigger off-court issues, and survival by KO is to be lauded, but no matter what people want to say about high school rankings, Wojo took over a team that had virtually no chance to win. Was there some talent? Sure, but none of the experienced players had much talent, while none of the talented players had much experience.
Who needs experience when you have (had) this
(http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/social_assets/cbb/12_28_13/samford%20dunk.gif)
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 10:17:07 AM
MU 82
You are flat out wrong on saying I am frequent critic of Wojo and would appreciate it if you refrained from saying that. As for KO and what he inherited, if you do not realize the state of the program at that time and the horrible place it was in, you flat out know nothing about college basketball. KO saved a program that was on life support and that is a fact.
This is absolutely true in terms of the state of the program being a night and day difference in terms of what KO inherited and Wojo. I am encouraged by what Wojo is doing, though not without some frustration over the defensive lapses. That said, aside from Tony Smith, that first KO team was extremely limited in talent. I recall KO telling me the next year that people completely took for granted that Smith did everything for that team...guarded the best player, brought the ball up, scored, assists, played 39 mins/game etc.... This came up when Logterman was forced to play point the following year and we were turning the ball over 30 plus times a game to start the season. KO and that class, however, with Damon Key, Mac and transfer Curry brought at least some level of hope and credibility to the program that had been completely absent under Dukiet. There was a completely different feel around the program when KO came in despite the less than stellar records those initial years. For that reason, I don't think the hypothetical Scoopers back then would have been as frustrated as one would think. The style of play was frustrating, he was crass etc, but at least we felt like a DI program under his watch.
The climate for Wojo is very different coming off Crean and Buzz, but personally I'm ok with where things are headed.
The Dukiet years were so bad that there were whispers about MU dropping D1 basketball altogether, not merely aspiring to be St. Louis. Patience is a virtue in short supply on message boards, sometimes. Wojo clearly deserves a few more years but that does not mean he is above reproach.
One contrast between O'Neill and Wojo that hasn't been mentioned yet is that KO was an very good defensive coach from the getgo
Being blessed with one of the Greatest Shot Blockers in the last 40 years will certainly make anyone look better defensively and Mac was great at that from Day 1. I remember an interview where Ron Eford said that MU players were coached not so much to stay in front of their man as they were to "funnel him towards Jimmy Mac".
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 14, 2016, 11:44:34 AM
Being blessed with one of the Greatest Shot Blockers in the last 40 years will certainly make anyone look better defensively and Mac was great at that from Day 1. I remember an interview where Ron Eford said that MU players were coached not so much to stay in front of their man as they were to "funnel him towards Jimmy Mac".
Jimmy Mac missed a chuck of his first year due to concussion problems that started preseason. iIRC, he never started his freshman year with Key starting at center and Powell at PF.
Lets also not forget KO's team practice in the Old Gym...and did not have access to a private jet for recruiting. What KO did with what little he had to work with (besides the existing players) was quite remarkable.
Quote from: westcoastwarrior on December 14, 2016, 11:48:55 AM
Lets also not forget KO's team practice in the Old Gym...and did not have access to a private jet for recruiting. What KO did with what little he had to work with (besides the existing players) was quite remarkable.
How many teams had their own jets back them or multi million dollar practice facilities? (honestly curious) Because I feel like we were pretty cutting edge when we built ours.
Quote from: 4everCrean on December 14, 2016, 11:47:45 AM
Jimmy Mac missed a chuck of his first year due to concussion problems that started preseason. iIRC, he never started his freshman year with Key starting at center and Powell at PF.
I don't think he missed many, if any, games. It was looking like he'd have to redshirt in the pre-season due to what essentially was a glass jaw. If I remember right, he would practice sometimes in boxing headgear b/c they couldn't figure out what was going on. As it turned out, a mouth guard essentially saved his season. Would have been ugly(ier) without him for sure.
When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.
Quote from: 4everCrean on December 14, 2016, 11:36:13 AM
One contrast between O'Neill and Wojo that hasn't been mentioned yet is that KO was an very good defensive coach from the getgo
And he was a poor offensive coach and really continued to be. I remember us beating his USC team in Maui and they were awful offensively.
The similarities (albeit switched between offense and defense) of being good recruiters and poor at coaching one side of the game has me concerned. Hope Wojo improves in this area.
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 12:39:35 PM
When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.
Marquette was also in the MCC at the time too.
I would say this. As far as the "state of the overall program," KO took over at a much worse time. As far as the "state of the talent on the basketball team," KO's situation was better than Wojo's.
Vinnie
KO inherited the worst team in MU history.
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 12:39:35 PM
When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.
Not to mention the LA Gear shoes several players blew out of...most conspicuously Logterman trying to bring the ball up the court against Kansas or Duke.
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 12:44:34 PM
Vinnie
KO inherited the worst team in MU history.
I don't agree with that. I was there at the time, and IMO the 1989-90 team was better than the one Wojo inherited.
That team had a future NBA player as a senior (Tony Smith), and three other additional solid players (Anglavar, Baldwin and Powell). Wojo had nothing of the sort.
Still Warriors
I was at both the Duke and Kansas games and still remember how hot KO got over those shoes. Two big losses but a great NC schedule that year. We played Michigan in between those two games.
Vinnie
The three aside from Tony Smith were low end D1 players at best. The remainder of the team was made up of D3 teams
A lot of posters have touched on this, but where 82 and Brew go wrong is mistaking the state of the PROGRAM with the players or team they inherited. Yes, KO inherited a very good player in Tony Smith, a local kid. But Marquette as a PROGRAM was in the dumpster. No money, no practice facility, no private plane, no Big East and, most importantly, no recent history of success. Now, Wojo, (like KO) didn't inherit a very good TEAM (only 6 top 100 players, little depth because two top 100 recruits didn't come), but he inherited a premier PROGRAM - the AL, huge budget, private plane, etc., etc., plus a strong history of recent success (8 NCAAs in 9 years, 7 NCAA tournament wins in the past 4 years). The difference between what the two inherited from a program perspective was huge.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2016, 02:07:35 PM
A lot of posters have touched on this, but where 82 and Brew go wrong is mistaking the state of the PROGRAM with the players or team they inherited. Yes, KO inherited a very good player in Tony Smith, a local kid. But Marquette as a PROGRAM was in the dumpster. No money, no practice facility, no private plane, no Big East and, most importantly, no recent history of success. Now, Wojo, (like KO) didn't inherit a very good TEAM (only 6 top 100 players, little depth because two top 100 recruits didn't come), but he inherited a premier PROGRAM - the AL, huge budget, private plane, etc., etc., plus a strong history of recent success (8 NCAAs in 9 years, 7 NCAA tournament wins in the past 4 years). The difference between what the two inherited from a program perspective was huge.
How many programs had all over that in 1996? The comparison shouldn't the state of the program then to the state now....it's the state of the program then
relative to the environment at the time vs the state of the program now relative to now.
What you are doing is basically comparing your salary now vs your salary in 1995 without accounting for inflation. Of course now looks better than then.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2016, 10:19:59 AM
Goose, I don't think there can be any real arguing the talent discrepancy, however. There were plenty of bigger off-court issues, and survival by KO is to be lauded, but no matter what people want to say about high school rankings, Wojo took over a team that had virtually no chance to win. Was there some talent? Sure, but none of the experienced players had much talent, while none of the talented players had much experience.
I acknowledged there were bigger issues and that my point was specifically regarding the talent. We had no star power and the only high major players were Fischer, Johnson, Wilson, and Burton who were all second year college players with a combined 350 points scored. Well, and Mayo, but it's a near miracle Buzz even kept him on the roster that long.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 14, 2016, 02:36:50 PM
Well, and Mayo, but it's a near miracle Buzz even kept him on the roster that long.
Part of the reason I would vote a hard no on the bring Buzz and/or Crean back thread.
Related to that, KO didn't have some of the structural and legal issues going on in the background that Wojo did when he took the job.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 14, 2016, 02:21:37 PM
How many programs had all over that in 1996? The comparison shouldn't the state of the program then to the state now....it's the state of the program then relative to the environment at the time vs the state of the program now relative to now.
What you are doing is basically comparing your salary now vs your salary in 1995 without accounting for inflation. Of course now looks better than then.
I can see an honest debate about the roster, but even on a time adjusted basis I dont think there really is a comparison that the program was (and still is) in better shape....attendance, conference affiliation, momentum, institutional support.
In fact if the program was where it was back then I wonder if we could have even convinced Wojo to be our coach.
Quote from: Goose on December 14, 2016, 12:39:35 PM
When KO took over all the road blue uni's did not even match. It was a mess from top all the way down. KO made a point to let everyone know how bad things were as well. Coming from AZ it had to be a real shock to the system.
If I remember correctly the home uniforms were worse for wear (they were supposed to be white, most looked off white to tan at best they were so old). KO refused to let the team wear them until new home uniforms were ordered. Yes, MU played home games in their road uniforms until the new home uniforms arrived.
Remember also, that KO''s records were against the great teams of Evansville, Detroit, Loyola of Chicago and yes, Dayton.....
I'm guessing this thread gets quiet for a while as everyone piles into the 30 Traci gowne threads that just popped up.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 14, 2016, 02:21:37 PM
How many programs had all over that in 1996? The comparison shouldn't the state of the program then to the state now....it's the state of the program then relative to the environment at the time vs the state of the program now relative to now.
What you are doing is basically comparing your salary now vs your salary in 1995 without accounting for inflation. Of course now looks better than then.
First, KO arrived in 1989, not 1996. But to your questions:
1. Private plane - don't really know the answer on this. My guess is we were in the vast majority then (no plane) and among the elites now.
2. Practice facility - The old gym was a dump (comparatively speaking) when I was there from 1966-70 - by 1989 it was a disgrace. The AL is state of the art right now.
3. Conference - MU was in its first year removed from independence in a bottom of the barrel conference - the short lived Midwestern City Conference. Now it's in a top notch one.
4. Money - I'm only guessing again, but it's safe to say that in 1989 MU's $ commitment to bball was middle of the road. Today our budget is at the level of the elites.
5.Recent success - KO predecessor was 39-46. We had not played in the NCAA tournament in 7 years. Wojo's predecessor was 139 - 69 with 5 NCAA appearances in 6 years and 7 tournament wins in his last 4.
So, yeah. Relatively speaking (or any other way of speaking) the PROGRAM inherited by Wojo was in infinitely better shape than the one KO got.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 14, 2016, 03:08:39 PM
3. Conference - MU was in its first year removed from independence in a bottom of the barrel conference - the short lived Midwestern City Conference. Now it's in a top notch one.
The MCC is now the Horizon League.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 14, 2016, 03:19:51 PM
The MCC is now the Horizon League.
Thanks.
A major drop (then and now) from today's Big East.
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 14, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
the following year and we were turning the ball over 30 plus times a game to start the season
The silver lining was that this absolutely forced KO to bring in a stud PG in Miller, the one-man press breaker.
I am absolutely acknowledging the "program was in worse shape" argument goes in KO's favor.
He still inherited an NBA player who was a senior and other multi-year D1 starters. Wojo had Carlino, a mid-year arrival with a handful of career games as a benchwarmer (Fischer), and prayer.
In Year 2, each brought in a highly-touted group of newcomers, with KO also bringing in a legit game-ready transfer (Curry). Wojo went 20-13 with his group; KO went 11-18 with his.
I mean, come on, the "KO was better" crowd can't acknowledge that? I mean, they are facts, right?
Let's also look at KO's overall coaching career - a complete trainwreck after Tony Miller singlehandedly beat Kentucky.
Ultimately, the record decides how good a coach is, and over 16 years, KO was 197-240, a .451 winning percentage. He also was 33-49 in the NBA.
I sincerely hope that we'll be saying Wojo accomplished more as a coach. If not, he surely will deserve to be fired.
Wojo's 20 win season last year was padded by one of the softest non-conference schedules in the country.
Quote from: Norm on December 14, 2016, 10:18:13 PM
Wojo's 20 win season last year was padded by one of the softest non-conference schedules in the country.
Agreed.
He also doubled the team's win Big East win total from the previous season, beating some ranked teams in the process.
Wojo's Golden Eagles won almost as many games in an excellent conference as KO's Warriors did in his entire second season.
Next!
Quote from: MU82 on December 14, 2016, 09:41:56 PM
I am absolutely acknowledging the "program was in worse shape" argument goes in KO's favor.
He still inherited an NBA player who was a senior and other multi-year D1 starters. Wojo had Carlino, a mid-year arrival with a handful of career games as a benchwarmer (Fischer), and prayer.
In Year 2, each brought in a highly-touted group of newcomers, with KO also bringing in a legit game-ready transfer (Curry). Wojo went 20-13 with his group; KO went 11-18 with his.
I mean, come on, the "KO was better" crowd can't acknowledge that? I mean, they are facts, right?
Let's also look at KO's overall coaching career - a complete trainwreck after Tony Miller singlehandedly beat Kentucky.
Ultimately, the record decides how good a coach is, and over 16 years, KO was 197-240, a .451 winning percentage. He also was 33-49 in the NBA.
I sincerely hope that we'll be saying Wojo accomplished more as a coach. If not, he surely will deserve to be fired.
Kevin's life was on the verge of becoming a train wreck when he was at MU and became one shortly after he left. He had a lot of self destructive habits that Wojo doesn't share. Because he was a brilliant coach, he kept getting chances. Because he lacked self control, he ended up blowing them. KO wasn't a long term answer for MU or anyone else because of his demons. But he did save a once proud program that was drowning and he did it with minimal help from the university. Wojo's accomplishments at Marquette (such as they are) pale in comparison.
MU82
There is no KO crowd or Wojo crowd here. It is just factually revisiting history. Very few on here would say much good about KO as a person, only he saved a dying program.
Too often on here it seems people take sides based off emotion. I have had degree of feelings about every coach in MU history and I think I am able to take emotion out of a discussion.
As for KO, liked him a lot as a person, loved that he saved a program and thought he was a so so basketball coach. Would have been happy if he stayed, but no tears shed when he left. Bottom line is the man saved us and fortunately wojo was given a job that has a program in far better shape.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 04:45:10 AM
MU82
There is no KO crowd or Wojo crowd here. It is just factually revisiting history. Very few on here would say much good about KO as a person, only he saved a dying program.
Too often on here it seems people take sides based off emotion. I have had degree of feelings about every coach in MU history and I think I am able to take emotion out of a discussion.
As for KO, liked him a lot as a person, loved that he saved a program and thought he was a so so basketball coach. Would have been happy if he stayed, but no tears shed when he left. Bottom line is the man saved us and fortunately wojo was given a job that has a program in far better shape.
I am taking sides based on performance at the similar stages of their coaching careers. By any measurable metric, Wojo has outperformed KO through 2 1/3 seasons.
All the other stuff -- "saved the program" ... "better shape" ... "worse shape" ... etc, etc, etc -- is subjective.
As for Lenny calling KO a "brilliant coach," obviously ADs must have thought so (or at least hoped so) because he kept getting hired. But at what point does the record -- the pure numbers -- take over?
I feel bad because I feel like I am attacking O'Neill, but this sort of thing happens when one is comparing and contrasting two of anything. I actually got to know him a little (though not until after he got to Northwestern) and I liked him. And I think he was a very good recruiter who grew to be a decent bench coach.
But the facts are the facts are the facts.
My
opinion is that the program was in worse shape for O'Neill but the roster was in worse shape for Wojo. Others might disagree.
The
fact is that O'Neill underperformed Wojo, especially in Year 2 of their respective regimes. Unless one can look at 11-18 with no wins over ranked teams and somehow come up with that being superior to 20-13 with 3 wins over ranked teams and a preseason tournament victory.
To me, all of this comes under the backdrop of expectations. I happen to think it is perfectly reasonable to point out that it took Jay Wright, Coach K and many, many, many other highly successful coaches years to build a winning program. Some other Scoopers hate such talk; they think Wojo should have won from Day 1. Some truly delusional types actually have argued he had quite a talented roster in Year 1.
And I happen to think it also is perfectly reasonable to say:
"Look at KO. He had a 42-45 cumulative record his first three years despite having two future NBAers and several other outstanding D1 players. It took him 4 years to get us to the Dance and another year to win a tourney game. Doesn't Wojo deserve a similar run before so many conclude he's not good enough to coach at Marquette?"
Quote from: NotAnAlum on December 14, 2016, 11:44:34 AM
Being blessed with one of the Greatest Shot Blockers in the last 40 years will certainly make anyone look better defensively and Mac was great at that from Day 1. I remember an interview where Ron Eford said that MU players were coached not so much to stay in front of their man as they were to "funnel him towards Jimmy Mac".
Sounds like a coach adjusting his philosophy to fit his talent. Good thing he didnt try to have Mac out on the perimeter, or not play him because he wasnt gifted offensively.
Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on December 15, 2016, 08:15:03 AM
Sounds like a coach adjusting his philosophy to fit his talent. Good thing he didnt try to have Mac out on the perimeter, or not play him because he wasnt gifted offensively.
So you are saying that Mac never hedged a pick on the perimeter? Of course he did. He was quicker than Luke though and recovered better, and had better front line players who could help without giving up too much size.
And do you really think that a center shouldn't hedge a pick?
MU82
Fair enough. Really is not worth comparing the two because it is two different times in history. I got to know KO before he became MU coach and enjoyed 90% of what he brought to the table. While far from an expert on talent I have been lucky enough to a few people that are that have helped me frame my thoughts on the topic. To a man every one of those people felt KO inherited the worst team in MU history. That said, you may be right and they may be wrong.
As I mentioned in my last post, fortunately Wojo inherited the overall program in a much better place than KO. Time and win/losses will ultimately determine Wojo's place in MU history. I hope it ends up being a success story that leads to future discussion/debates for years to come. The only coach I openly rooted against was the end of the Dukiet era because I believed a change had to be made. Pulling hard for Wojo and hoping he knocks it out of the park.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 15, 2016, 08:47:07 AM
So you are saying that Mac never hedged a pick on the perimeter? Of course he did. He was quicker than Luke though and recovered better, and had better front line players who could help without giving up too much size.
And do you really think that a center shouldn't hedge a pick?
If you think what Luke is doing is hedging, then I have some Ocean Front property in Arizone Id like to sell you.
My basic take is this:
KO -- KO had a crappy brand. The luster had dimmed so much from our NatChamp days that he was putting out a dumpster fire and rebuilding from the ground up. Getting and keeping talent like Tony, Jim etc., was his accomplishment. He had the benefit of being able to sell anyone any good on the chance to start immediately and make a tremendous difference. Tony was one of the best we had and Jim was incredible.
Wojo -- Better brand, bigger dumpster fire. Had a coach on the way out who was extremely critical of our conference and our school and left our program in shambles. We had a much better reputation when Wojo came here, but the rebuild was as tough as KO's and Wojo had a far less forgiving fan base. And, he had social media that spread the news of the toxic dumpster fire everytime he moved.
KO left for the University of Tennessee to coach a university with no previous basketball excellence (sorry Ray Mears, you and excellence don't mix) in a conference dominated by Kentucky. He did a nice job at UT as well before bolting for, of all places, Northwestern. To this day, I believe KO could have won a national title at either Marquette or Tennessee if he had been patient. Why he left UT, I'll never understand. I know the "official" and "unofficial" reasons, but at some point someone's id overcomes their ego.
dgies
I disagree on the size of the dumpster fire Wojo inherited. While I never could prove one way or another, but I feel if Shaka had taken the job the program would be light years further ahead. Hiring an inexperienced coach was a gamble IMO. Shaka could have put a dumpster fire out in two minutes and had brought instant credibility to the MU brand.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 09:00:25 AM
dgies
I disagree on the size of the dumpster fire Wojo inherited. While I never could prove one way or another, but I feel if Shaka had taken the job the program would be light years further ahead. Hiring an inexperienced coach was a gamble IMO. Shaka could have put a dumpster fire out in two minutes and had brought instant credibility to the MU brand.
Texas is 5-4 this year. The four losses include games v. Colorado, Northwestern and UT-Arlington.
Here are some comments from a Longhorn basketball message board:
"Texas gives the man a raise and an extension to his contract, and he doesn't recruit a true point guard ????? What good is a basketball team when you don't have a point guard ?????? At least Charlie recruited a QB in SB.....SMH......
Looks like our basketball team will be mediocre to bad. We may have a streaky shooter, but have no pure scorers we can depend on. Even if the Freshmen develop, not having a point guard will have us near the bottom of the pack in the Big 12. "
"Looks like the following year will be rebuilding too if some Freshmen leave after one and we have a true Freshman point guard....Spinning our wheels just like with Barnes....except spending more money for the same or lesser product."
"Yep ...no shooters to force defense out away from paint, and no point guard to distribute the ball. Smart may not win 10 games if the conference is worth a crap this year. A $3 million dollar bust ? Looks like no post season for football or basketball for 2016-17."
So I'm not saying you are wrong. Just saying that fans all over don't likely have a proper perspective of the state of their program.
Vinnie
I wish our fan base had same expectations from a coach/program as UT fans. IMO the worst thing at MU is that we are always hoping things will improve the following year. MU fan base instant results is five years and that is why we find ourselves looking up at other programs far too often.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 09:15:41 AM
Vinnie
I wish our fan base had same expectations from a coach/program as UT fans. IMO the worst thing at MU is that we are always hoping things will improve the following year. MU fan base instant results is five years and that is why we find ourselves looking up at other programs far too often.
I'm getting tired of this refrain without any supporting arguments. I have pointed out plenty of similar rebuilds to ours that generally required 3-5 years to get back to the Tournament. Who are these coaches that are turning things around in one year? And clearly the names "Smart" and "Howland" can't be on that list when you consider the state of the programs they are at now. I wanted Shaka too, but that doesn't discount what Wojo has done to the positive.
Brew
Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.
Not just that, but what does a fanbase expectations have to do with it? Does it make the process happen faster? No. It just makes people make muguru-like rants that don't solve anything.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 09:33:55 AM
Brew
Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.
Buzz is probably a better coach than Wojo.
Unless Buzz wants to return here if we fire Wojo, the point is relatively pointless.
Vinnie
Of course, Brew asked who is doing a quick rebuild these days and Buzz was my response.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 15, 2016, 09:36:38 AM
Buzz is probably a better coach than Wojo.
Unless Buzz wants to return here if we fire Wojo, the point is relatively pointless.
Agree with everything except the "probably".
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 04:45:10 AM
MU82
There is no KO crowd or Wojo crowd here. It is just factually revisiting history. Very few on here would say much good about KO as a person, only he saved a dying program.
Too often on here it seems people take sides based off emotion. I have had degree of feelings about every coach in MU history and I think I am able to take emotion out of a discussion.
As for KO, liked him a lot as a person, loved that he saved a program and thought he was a so so basketball coach. Would have been happy if he stayed, but no tears shed when he left. Bottom line is the man saved us and fortunately wojo was given a job that has a program in far better shape.
Kevin used ta jog past my crib each dey. Kept promisin' he'd offer my son a schollie each time we were out der shootin' hoops on da driveway. Ta dis dey, da mofo never ponied up da free ride, so he's on my chit list, ai na?
Some people have taken up the torch so strongly for Wojo that they are now going back to subtly-but-not-so-subtly taking digs at KO and his resurrection of MUBB.
"Actually, did KO really inherit a bad program? I have my doubts now that I have taken up the torch for Wojo"
It reminds me a lot of the Packer fans who were upset after Favre left for the Vikings that they went back and shat on his 16-year career: "Actually, what did Favre really get us in those 16 seasons? One SB? Whoopty doo"
Quote from: Eldon on December 15, 2016, 10:05:28 AM
"Actually, did KO really inherit a bad program? I have my doubts now that I have taken up the torch for Wojo"
No one claimed that KO didn't inherit a bad *program.*
Some are claiming he inherited a better *team* in his first year.
There is a difference.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 09:33:55 AM
Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.
One can look back in history and find examples on both sides of this equation.
Some effen great coaches struggled for years before turning things around. Some coaches were able to do it sooner for various reasons.
Buzz won at MU faster than Wright won at Nova. Is Buzz a better coach than Jay Wright? I'm not sure how one could answer yes to that. Is Buzz a better coach than Wojo? Sure. His record would indicate the answer is a strong yes.
Still, Buzz has been at Va. Tech for the exact same amount of time that Wojo has been at Marquette and Buzz has the exact same number of NCAA appearances as Wojo does. Buzz certainly might get there this year. So might Wojo. I hope every single Scooper, including Buzz's biggest fans or apologists, is rooting more for the latter than the former.
I'd have rather have had Shaka, too. But again, Shaka so far this season is proving that it ain't easy. Not many guys in history have walked into a high-major program and won big immediately. And most of those who have (for example, Kevin Ollie at UConn and, to a lesser extent, Bruce Weber at Ill, Buzz at MU) did so because they inherited darn good situations.
Shaka ultimately will be judged on his record. And that is how it should be.
Using that as a guide, Wojo's team has produced a better record in his first 2 1/3 years as a college head coach than KO's did in his first 2 1/3 years as a college head coach. That's a fact.
I'd believe KO inherited a worse TEAM than Wojo did if Wojo had a future 10-year NBA player and KO had to give major minutes to Derrick and Juan, but others are allowed to believe differently. That's an opinion.
I'm starting to repeat myself, and as my name isn't chicos or Ners or MUFINY, I will now cease and desist unless I have something new to offer.
Much of our discussion, Goose, comes down to semantics, perception and opinion. I respect you, and I am very happy to hear you want the best for Wojo and our Warriors.
The alternative - the team sucks the rest of this season and then for the next year or two, Wojo is fired, we have to hire another guy, recruits leave, players transfer, lather-rinse-repeat - is not one I'm looking forward to, that's for sure.
That's a steep price to pay for some Scoopers (not you, but some) being able to puff out their chests and say, "I told you so."
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 09:33:55 AM
Brew
Buzz is doing alright on taking over a rebuild.
I'm calling BS on this one. Even though, as Sultan noted, Buzz is probably a better coach (at least in-game wise).
Buzz went 11-22 in year one, rebounded to a decent year two, same win total as we had with an even worse non-conference, and having a very similar year this year. Though Buzz has the ability to recruit JUCOs. Pomeroy has the two teams separated by 1 in rankings (Va Tech 37, we are 38), both are likely bubble teams this year, both are picked for 9-9 conference records. If you think Buzz is doing alright, then you must by default also think Wojo is doing alright since the job they have both done is virtually identical.
Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on December 15, 2016, 09:11:24 AM
Here are some comments from a Longhorn basketball message board:
"Texas gives the man a raise and an extension to his contract, and he doesn't recruit a true point guard ????? What good is a basketball team when you don't have a point guard ?????? At least Charlie recruited a QB in SB.....SMH......
Looks like our basketball team will be mediocre to bad. We may have a streaky shooter, but have no pure scorers we can depend on. Even if the Freshmen develop, not having a point guard will have us near the bottom of the pack in the Big 12. "
"Looks like the following year will be rebuilding too if some Freshmen leave after one and we have a true Freshman point guard....Spinning our wheels just like with Barnes....except spending more money for the same or lesser product."
"Yep ...no shooters to force defense out away from paint, and no point guard to distribute the ball. Smart may not win 10 games if the conference is worth a crap this year. A $3 million dollar bust ? Looks like no post season for football or basketball for 2016-17."
I thought I was reading Scoop!!!!!!Goose, you're one of my favorite reads on Scoop. Agree to disagree on this one. When Wojo came, we had eight scholarship athletes. If he somehow had not sold Matt Carlino on coming here, our beloved Warriors might have barely four games that year.
I understand the attraction to Shaka, but it's kinda like bemoaning not hiring Denny Crum after Al left or not doing better after we replaced Majerus. Yeah, I would have loved Roy Williams, Coach K, Jay Wright or Slick Rick Pitino down at Loserville. But none of them were coming here either and, at the end of the day, we had about as much chance with Shaka as we did with any of those guys.
We'll see in time if we have someone special.
dgies
We could have had Denny in '77 and had Shaka for a few hours. Rick left in mid summer and no chance to get anyone that could walk and chew gum at the same time.
I do love all the post Matt Carlino love because I was one of three guys happy to see him from the day he announced. They called him selfish, a cancer from three programs, a chucker and now he carried MU to some wins. I mean this with all due respect, you saying nice things about Matt makes my day.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2016, 12:48:05 PM
I'm calling BS on this one. Even though, as Sultan noted, Buzz is probably a better coach (at least in-game wise).
Buzz went 11-22 in year one, rebounded to a decent year two, same win total as we had with an even worse non-conference, and having a very similar year this year. Though Buzz has the ability to recruit JUCOs. Pomeroy has the two teams separated by 1 in rankings (Va Tech 37, we are 38), both are likely bubble teams this year, both are picked for 9-9 conference records. If you think Buzz is doing alright, then you must by default also think Wojo is doing alright since the job they have both done is virtually identical.
I'm calling BS on this one. The roof on a fine home that Wojo inherited had some hail damage. The house Buzz got was a shack to begin with and had been leveled by a hurricane. Past history, state of program, $ commitment, conference difficulty and players to rebuild with - all advantage Wojo. They may be tied or close to it at the one mile mark today but Wojo had better running shoes and a half mile head start.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 01:26:26 PM
I'm calling BS on this one. The roof on a fine home that Wojo inherited had some hail damage. The house Buzz got was a shack to begin with and had been leveled by a hurricane. Past history, state of program, $ commitment, conference difficulty and players to rebuild with - all advantage Wojo. They may be tied or close to it at the one mile mark today but Wojo had better running shoes and a half mile head start.
It's easy to self rationalize ones stance. How about this?
Wojo came in with nothing. First time head coach. Recruiting cabinet left completely bare by the departed one.
Buzz was able to bring most of a very heralded recruiting class (leaving MU's class empty) and with a solid reputation to lean on recruiting wise.
Both were essentially starting over from scratch, one could bring a strong recruiting class with him.
I'd expect this scenario to at least offset the advantages you claim Wojo had. I'd argue that these reasons are more impactful and because of that Wojo started off in worse condition...but that would be self rationalization. Bottom line, Wojo and Buzz's scenarios were not that different and they are performing very similar. Conclusion, they are doing an equal job...the established coach should be outperforming. He's not.
Quote from: forgetful on December 15, 2016, 01:40:57 PM
It's easy to self rationalize ones stance. How about this?
Wojo came in with nothing. First time head coach. Recruiting cabinet left completely bare by the departed one.
Buzz was able to bring most of a very heralded recruiting class (leaving MU's class empty) and with a solid reputation to lean on recruiting wise.
Both were essentially starting over from scratch, one could bring a strong recruiting class with him.
I'd expect this scenario to at least offset the advantages you claim Wojo had. I'd argue that these reasons are more impactful and because of that Wojo started off in worse condition...but that would be self rationalization. Bottom line, Wojo and Buzz's scenarios were not that different and they are performing very similar. Conclusion, they are doing an equal job...the established coach should be outperforming. He's not.
How about it? Other than "nailing" the fact that Wojo was a first year coach, you basically whiffed on everything.
1. Wojo came in with nothing. FALSE. Wojo came in with seven (7) players rated in the top 100 in high school + a returning starting senior point guard + a dynamic scoring 6th man + a backup point guard.
2. Recruiting cupboard left completely bare. FALSE. Buzz commit (and top 100 recruit) Sandy Cohen honored his commitment.
3. Buzz took most of a heralded class with him to VT. FALSE. Buzz did take 1 of the 3 heralded members of that class to VT (Ahmed Hill). Cohen stayed with MU and Mariel Shayok switched to Virginia. Project, low rated big Pierce also went to VT played little and transferred.
4. Both were essentially starting over from scratch. FALSE. Even today, 2 of MU's best players (Luke and JJJ) play for Wojo. So does key reserve Du Wilson. Without them MU = DePaul or St Johns. All of Buzz's players at VT are his - total rebuild.
So you're right - if you state a lot of non facts as facts you can make a pretty good case for an opinion. But scientists generally shy away from that, no?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 01:26:26 PM
I'm calling BS on this one. The roof on a fine home that Wojo inherited had some hail damage. The house Buzz got was a shack to begin with and had been leveled by a hurricane. Past history, state of program, $ commitment, conference difficulty and players to rebuild with - all advantage Wojo. They may be tied or close to it at the one mile mark today but Wojo had better running shoes and a half mile head start.
Just because Hurricane Buzz leveled his own roster doesn't mean it was a shack to begin with. Buzz ran off Adam Smith, Trevor Thompson, Joey Van Zegeren, Ben Emologu, and Marshall Wood, all of whom went on to be productive players at other programs, as well as CJ Barksdale, who had been a decent player for Va Tech. Buzz had plenty of tools in his toolbox, he just threw them away.
If Wojo had a half-mile head start, it's only because Buzz started running backwards when the gun sounded. That's no real surprise, it's his way of doing things and I think he really relishes getting guys to transfer out, but let's not sugar coat the turd he left for Wojo.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 02:29:34 PM
How about it? Other than "nailing" the fact that Wojo was a first year coach, you basically whiffed on everything.
1. Wojo came in with nothing. FALSE. Wojo came in with seven (7) players rated in the top 100 in high school + a returning starting senior point guard + a dynamic scoring 6th man + a backup point guard.
2. Recruiting cupboard left completely bare. FALSE. Buzz commit (and top 100 recruit) Sandy Cohen honored his commitment.
3. Buzz took most of a heralded class with him to VT. FALSE. Buzz did take 1 of the 3 heralded members of that class to VT (Ahmed Hill). Cohen stayed with MU and Mariel Shayok switched to Virginia. Project, low rated big Pierce also went to VT played little and transferred.
4. Both were essentially starting over from scratch. FALSE. Even today, 2 of MU's best players (Luke and JJJ) play for Wojo. So does key reserve Du Wilson. Without them MU = DePaul or St Johns. All of Buzz's players at VT are his - total rebuild.
So you're right - if you state a lot of non facts as facts you can make a pretty good case for an opinion. But scientists generally shy away from that, no?
On 1: what they were rated in high school was irrelevant. They were mostly flops or transferred out (Burton) or were recruited by Wojo after he arrived (Carlino). The only people on the roster that have lived up to top 100 billing are Luke and JJJ (who was drastically underperforming at the time and if it wasn't for Wojo and co reworking his shot would still be a flop). Buzz cleared out a nice cabinet and kept Hill, and also kept Pierce who many hear and who Buzz thought was a late bloomer that could be a 3-4 year starter. It was a flop, like many of Buzz's recruits.
The team was coming off a 17-15 record with all their best players leaving and nearly all of their scoring. The roster was dreadful. Citing top 100 players is irrelevant if the players didn't have top 100 skills.
1b. The starting senior PG was Derrick Wilson, who many thought shouldn't even play D1 ball (I strongly disagree). Who was the backup PG, Dawson, who is only mediocre at Liberty? Who is they dynamic scoring 6-man? Mayo, he would have been off the team no matter who was coach. Burton? Yeah he was ok, but wasn't staying.
2. The roster was short to begin with. With Cohen and Mayo there would have been 9 players on the roster. Mayo was unlikely to remain on the team even if Buzz stayed, so really only 8 roster players (9 when Luke became eligible). That is very bare.
3. See 1 above. Hill was expected to start from day 1. Many figured Pierce would start from day 1 and compete with Luke for playing time.
4. See Brew's post. VT had a decent roster, Buzz imploded it. Many at the time thought JJJ was a flop and should transfer. He couldn't shoot worth a lick. Luke was solid. That was it. Duane was a RS freshman who hadn't stepped on a college court.
Also, Wojo has already put a player he recruited into the NBA.
Or how about this? Buzz came in to a program that was a perennial bottom feeder in the ACC and fans had no expectations.
Wojo came in to a program that had made three sweet sixteens and an elite eight in the past five years, but inherited the bare cupboard when the previous coach robbed the safe and left town.
No wonder VPI fans are relatively happy with their coach's rebuilding process, while Scoopers seem to be relatively disgruntled by theirs.
Quote from: Goose on December 15, 2016, 01:19:33 PM
dgies
I do love all the post Matt Carlino love because I was one of three guys happy to see him from the day he announced. I mean this with all due respect, you saying nice things about Matt makes my day.
I saw what happened when that jackass from Villanova, Ryan Archidiacano, flipped Matt and he didn't play for a few games because of a concussion.. I think we laid a goose egg during Matt's down time. Matt in many ways saved Wojo's first season from being a violent nuclear strike against us.
I never criticized the guy -- at least I don't think I did. We owe him a lot.
I don't know the particulars of Shaka. Nor, at this point, do I care. Maybe he will live to regret the day he didn't find his way to the shores of Lake Michigan. One can hope.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on December 15, 2016, 04:34:09 PM
Or how about this? Buzz came in to a program that was a perennial bottom feeder in the ACC and fans had no expectations.
Wojo came in to a program that had made three sweet sixteens and an elite eight in the past five years, but inherited the bare cupboard when the previous coach robbed the safe and left town.
No wonder VPI fans are relatively happy with their coach's rebuilding process, while Scoopers seem to be relatively disgruntled by theirs.
Expectations definitely lower. But VPI was not really a perennial cellar dweller. Greenberg had them as a perennial bubble team. After one bad year he was canned and they made a bad hire, who they fired after only 2 (dismal) seasons. Buzz took off from there. They were only 3 years removed from a 22-win season when Buzz took over.
One would expect Buzz to be able to exceed Greenberg (170-123 record; 25-9 in 09-10). He didn't last year and this year he will likely also fall short of the NCAA. He would have to substantially underperform next year in order to miss the tournament (LeDay and Hill will be seniors).
Quote from: forgetful on December 15, 2016, 04:29:15 PM
On 1: what they were rated in high school was irrelevant. They were mostly flops or transferred out (Burton) or were recruited by Wojo after he arrived (Carlino). The only people on the roster that have lived up to top 100 billing are Luke and JJJ (who was drastically underperforming at the time and if it wasn't for Wojo and co reworking his shot would still be a flop). Buzz cleared out a nice cabinet and kept Hill, and also kept Pierce who many hear and who Buzz thought was a late bloomer that could be a 3-4 year starter. It was a flop, like many of Buzz's recruits.
The team was coming off a 17-15 record with all their best players leaving and nearly all of their scoring. The roster was dreadful. Citing top 100 players is irrelevant if the players didn't have top 100 skills.
1b. The starting senior PG was Derrick Wilson, who many thought shouldn't even play D1 ball (I strongly disagree). Who was the backup PG, Dawson, who is only mediocre at Liberty? Who is they dynamic scoring 6-man? Mayo, he would have been off the team no matter who was coach. Burton? Yeah he was ok, but wasn't staying.
2. The roster was short to begin with. With Cohen and Mayo there would have been 9 players on the roster. Mayo was unlikely to remain on the team even if Buzz stayed, so really only 8 roster players (9 when Luke became eligible). That is very bare.
3. See 1 above. Hill was expected to start from day 1. Many figured Pierce would start from day 1 and compete with Luke for playing time.
4. See Brew's post. VT had a decent roster, Buzz imploded it. Many at the time thought JJJ was a flop and should transfer. He couldn't shoot worth a lick. Luke was solid. That was it. Duane was a RS freshman who hadn't stepped on a college court.
Also, Wojo has already put a player he recruited into the NBA.
Nothing in this post alters the FACT that your previous post was one falsehood after another.
But you've added a few new falsehoods:
1. Buzz inherited a decent roster. VT was 9-22 the year before Buzz arrived. The roster was full of bad players, bad attitudes or both. Before this year started all were gone.
2.Many figured Pierce would start from day one. Pierce was a major project (ranked sub 200 by all). Nobody who knew anything about basketball thought he would start. Played 6 minutes a game on an 11-22 VT squad as a freshman, 13 as a sophomore before transferring.
In a fist fight, KO over Wojo.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on December 15, 2016, 04:34:09 PM
Or how about this? Buzz came in to a program that was a perennial bottom feeder in the ACC and fans had no expectations.
Wojo came in to a program that had made three sweet sixteens and an elite eight in the past five years, but inherited the bare cupboard when the previous coach robbed the safe and left town.
No wonder VPI fans are relatively happy with their coach's rebuilding process, while Scoopers seem to be relatively disgruntled by theirs.
It's always harder to win at a storied program than at a bottom feeder. It's why guys like Bill Self always leave a Kansas for a DePaul. It's so much easier to win there, dontcha know?
Quote from: T-Bone on December 15, 2016, 05:54:22 PM
In a fist fight, KO over Wojo.
Ah yes but what about a thumb wrestling match
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 05:51:35 PM
Nothing in this post alters the FACT that your previous post was one falsehood after another.
But you've added a few new falsehoods:
1. Buzz inherited a decent roster. VT was 9-22 the year before Buzz arrived. The roster was full of bad players, bad attitudes or both. Before this year started all were gone.
2.Many figured Pierce would start from day one. Price was a major project (ranked sub 200 by all). Nobody who knew anything about basketball thought he would start. Played 6 minutes a game on an 11-22 VT squad as a freshman, 13 as a sophomore before transferring.
Players on that VT roster that he ran off:
Adam Smith G Averaged 11 ppg shooting 36% from 3 before Buzz came: Currently averaging 15 ppg and shooting 41% from 3 for Georgia Tech. USG 25%; Ortg 119
Trevor Thompson 7' center averaging 11 pts/9 rbs/2 blks for Ohio State
Those two's stats match JJJ and Luke
The other Brew mentioned that were run off as well are equivalent to the MU roster fill-out. Fine role players, bad starters.
You say these guys were bad players (not true) or must have had bad attitudes (seems to be working fine for other schools that are a step up from VPI. So you have little proof there, but MU's top 100 players all had to be great players and have great attitudes but it is Wojo's fault they didn't work out well.
Recruits he either inherited or could bring with him.
Hill>Cohen
Bibbs>Duane
Hudson>Duane/Burton etc. (he ran him off to Florida)
Pierce, may be a flop, but played 15 minutes per game as a Freshman; Transferred to Penn State and is sitting out this year.
Bibbs and Hudson were both 4-star recruits. Hill was a star.
What would you rather have: Hill, Bibbs and Hudson or Cohen?
Luke/JJJ very comparable to Thompson/Smith
2. For the first half of the season Wojo didn't have a center on the roster. Our center was 6'7", bad knees Steve Taylor...yes Pierce would have started until Luke was ready...and Luke was no guarantee coming off an injury and a season that was statistically worse than Pierce's freshman year.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 05:58:02 PM
It's always harder to win at a storied program than at a bottom feeder. It's why guys like Bill Self always leave a Kansas for a DePaul. It's so much easier to win there, dontcha know?
I wasn't addressing the ability to win, I was addressing the fans' feelings about the virtually identical progress of two coaches. And forgetful, they were a perennial bubble team before a bunch of skilled teams from the Old Big East defected to the ACC. Not sure you can argue that VPI is in the same position as they were last time they had a good coach.
Quote from: MomofMUltiples on December 15, 2016, 08:37:26 PM
I wasn't addressing the ability to win, I was addressing the fans' feelings about the virtually identical progress of two coaches. And forgetful, they were a perennial bubble team before a bunch of skilled teams from the Old Big East defected to the ACC. Not sure you can argue that VPI is in the same position as they were last time they had a good coach.
We are only talking about 2 years. My point is this. Perennial ACC bottom feeder is Boston College.
If a job had opened up the same year at BC:
Would Buzz have considered going there?
Would BC pursued Buzz?
The answer to #1 is no, they are a bottom feeder. VPI had a recent history of success and a very good incoming recruiting class that Buzz was certain he could keep.
The answer to #2 is no. They wouldn't have spent the money, because neither the university or the boosters, expect success or think they can succeed. The money was there to get Buzz, because their was still an expectation for success. Greenberg was fired after 1 bad season, because the boosters/administration considered VPI a team that should regularly be in the NCAAs. If Buzz doesn't make the NCAAs this year or next, his seat will be very hot.
That is what I was getting at. Expectations at VPI are lower than at MU, but not by that much.
I like how Wojo vs. KO became Scoop vs. Buzz (and, of course, Lenny)!
We rock!!!!
Quote from: forgetful on December 15, 2016, 08:58:13 PM
We are only talking about 2 years. My point is this. Perennial ACC bottom feeder is Boston College.
If a job had opened up the same year at BC:
Would Buzz have considered going there?
Would BC pursued Buzz?
The answer to #1 is no, they are a bottom feeder. VPI had a recent history of success and a very good incoming recruiting class that Buzz was certain he could keep.
The answer to #2 is no. They wouldn't have spent the money, because neither the university or the boosters, expect success or think they can succeed. The money was there to get Buzz, because their was still an expectation for success. Greenberg was fired after 1 bad season, because the boosters/administration considered VPI a team that should regularly be in the NCAAs. If Buzz doesn't make the NCAAs this year or next, his seat will be very hot.
That is what I was getting at. Expectations at VPI are lower than at MU, but not by that much.
How can a guy with your brains write this stuff?
VPI isn't a bottom feeder? Expectations at VPI are not much lower than at Marquette?
Really? The year before Buzz arrived VPI was 2-16 (last) in the ACC. BC was 4-12.
The year before that VPI was 4-14 (last) in the ACC. BC was 7-11.
The year before that VPI was 4-12 (tied for last) in the ACC. BC was also 4-12.
The year before Wojo arrived at MU we were 9-9 in the Big East.
The year before that we were 14-4, Big Eat regular season champs, and made the Elite 8.
The year before that we were 14-4 in the Big East and made the Sweet 16.
And here's a little more history on the team with similar expectations to Marquette's. They've been to the NCAAs 2 times in the 28 years prior to Buzz's arrival and won zero NCAA tournament games in that time.
Yep, Wojo and Buzz inherited programs with similar histories and similar expectations. Sure.
Wojo and Buzz have virtually identical results. Both chose the situations they went to carefully. Saying that Buzz should be given credit for having a tougher situation is a load of utter and complete BS because HE PICKED THAT GODDAMN SITUATION!!! Buzz chose to LEAVE here and GO there. He doesn't get bonus points for choosing to jump into a marginal situation and forcing out every player on the roster, some of which who were legitimate D1 star power talents, some of which were viable role-players.
What the crap? Seriously. Giving Buzz extra credit for doing the EXACT SAME JOB Wojo did, and more credit because he decided to run people off (HIS choice) and picked a school more vested in football (HIS choice) that doesn't have as much basketball history as Marquette (HIS choice) is just dumber than dumber than dumber than dumb.
If Buzz wanted a challenge, he should have tried to stick around and abide by the desires of the BoT, and do so with the roster that he built (never mind that multiple players Wojo retained would have left had Buzz stayed). That would have been an impressive rebuild, but he didn't do that because he was afraid he'd lose his reputation if he stayed here longer, so he DELIBERATELY went to a crappy program because it was no-lose.
Character goddamn revealed. He was a coward who couldn't face up to the trainwreck he created, so he grabbed the silver out of the drawer and ran off into the night, expecting that he'd be praised as a genius when he took a crappy school with no expectations or restrictions to the Dance. Give me a freaking break.
Quote from: forgetful on December 15, 2016, 06:31:56 PM
Players on that VT roster that he ran off:
Adam Smith G Averaged 11 ppg shooting 36% from 3 before Buzz came: Currently averaging 15 ppg and shooting 41% from 3 for Georgia Tech. USG 25%; Ortg 119
Trevor Thompson 7' center averaging 11 pts/9 rbs/2 blks for Ohio State
Those two's stats match JJJ and Luke
The other Brew mentioned that were run off as well are equivalent to the MU roster fill-out. Fine role players, bad starters.
You say these guys were bad players (not true) or must have had bad attitudes (seems to be working fine for other schools that are a step up from VPI. So you have little proof there, but MU's top 100 players all had to be great players and have great attitudes but it is Wojo's fault they didn't work out well.
Recruits he either inherited or could bring with him.
Hill>Cohen
Bibbs>Duane
Hudson>Duane/Burton etc. (he ran him off to Florida)
Pierce, may be a flop, but played 15 minutes per game as a Freshman; Transferred to Penn State and is sitting out this year.
Bibbs and Hudson were both 4-star recruits. Hill was a star.
What would you rather have: Hill, Bibbs and Hudson or Cohen?
Luke/JJJ very comparable to Thompson/Smith
2. For the first half of the season Wojo didn't have a center on the roster. Our center was 6'7", bad knees Steve Taylor...yes Pierce would have started until Luke was ready...and Luke was no guarantee coming off an injury and a season that was statistically worse than Pierce's freshman year.
This is tiresome, but here are some more factually false statements in this post:
Hudson was not a 4 star. He was a low 3 star with a composite 191 ranking.
Pierce played 13.8 minutes per game as a freshman, when VPI was 11-22, 2-16. his sophomore year, when VPI was 10-8 in the ACC, he played 6.2 minutes per game. He was not nearly as heralded out of high school, rated in the 200s. Luke and Steve were both top 100.
Hill was a 4 star, but his composite ranking was lower than JJJ's. And he missed last season with a bad knee, contributing nothing to Tech's 10-8 ACC team.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2016, 10:30:53 PM
Wojo and Buzz have virtually identical results. Both chose the situations they went to carefully. Saying that Buzz should be given credit for having a tougher situation is a load of utter and complete BS because HE PICKED THAT GODDAMN SITUATION!!! Buzz chose to LEAVE here and GO there. He doesn't get bonus points for choosing to jump into a marginal situation and forcing out every player on the roster, some of which who were legitimate D1 star power talents, some of which were viable role-players.
What the crap? Seriously. Giving Buzz extra credit for doing the EXACT SAME JOB Wojo did, and more credit because he decided to run people off (HIS choice) and picked a school more vested in football (HIS choice) that doesn't have as much basketball history as Marquette (HIS choice) is just dumber than dumber than dumber than dumb.
If Buzz wanted a challenge, he should have tried to stick around and abide by the desires of the BoT, and do so with the roster that he built (never mind that multiple players Wojo retained would have left had Buzz stayed). That would have been an impressive rebuild, but he didn't do that because he was afraid he'd lose his reputation if he stayed here longer, so he DELIBERATELY went to a crappy program because it was no-lose.
Character goddamn revealed. He was a coward who couldn't face up to the trainwreck he created, so he grabbed the silver out of the drawer and ran off into the night, expecting that he'd be praised as a genius when he took a crappy school with no expectations or restrictions to the Dance. Give me a freaking break.
Be mad at Buzz for leaving if you want. Totally your prerogative. But it doesn't change the fact that the mountain he left to climb was much steeper than the one he was on.
I'm fine with him being gone. We're better off with him gone. There's a reason no one stopped him from walking out the door. Good game coach, but came up woefully short in numerous other aspects of the job. But no, he gets no extra credit for picking a bad situation. That's just inane.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2016, 10:53:41 PM
I'm fine with him being gone. We're better off with him gone. There's a reason no one stopped him from walking out the door. Good game coach, but came up woefully short in numerous other aspects of the job. But no, he gets no extra credit for picking a bad situation. That's just inane.
Most people here won't give him extra credit and I understand why. But the non Marquette affiliated basketball world will. Already are, actually.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 10:33:42 PM
This is tiresome, but here are some more factually false statements in this post:
Hudson was not a 4 star. He was a low 3 star with a composite 191 ranking.
Pierce played 13.8 minutes per game as a freshman, when VPI was 11-22, 2-16. his sophomore year, when VPI was 10-8 in the ACC, he played 6.2 minutes per game. He was not nearly as heralded out of high school, rated in the 200s. Luke and Steve were both top 100.
Hill was a 4 star, but his composite ranking was lower than JJJ's. And he missed last season with a bad knee, contributing nothing to Tech's 10-8 ACC team.
For Hudson, I trust ESPN . He was a 4-star and proved it at the D1 level before transferring.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/145633/jalen-hudson (http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/145633/jalen-hudson)
As for the rest. I appreciate your stances, but clearly we disagree. We differ in that you place a lot of weight on the top 100 rankings, whereas I place more weight on how they perform once they are in college. I also place a lot of weight on nuances that are not easy to quantify:
e.g. Wojo took over a team that when he showed up only had 9 players, one of whom wasn't eligible for the first semester, another, Mayo was going to be gone regardless, and another Steve whose knees were so bad he was ineffective. He also had much of the core JJJ, Anderson, Burton actively considering transferring.
My point is that one cannot definitively claim anything regarding who had a better scenario, because there are way too many variables. It becomes a matter of opinion.
The reason I brought it up is people underestimate the talent that was on virginia tech when Buzz came in. They neglect that Greenberg had established them as a respected mid-level ACC program, that was in year 2 of a failed rebuild. People also underestimate how bad the situation was at MU. The situations were more similar than they were different.
People championing how great Buzz is doing and criticizing Wojo are not representing reality. It irritates me, especially how negative the board is lately, so if I'm a little irrational in defense of Wojo I apologize and ask for you to give me some leeway.
Now, my
opinion is that MU was better positioned for long-term success, but the roster makeup/new coach placed him about 1-year behind Buzz in terms of program building. I think Buzz will outperform Wojo this year and next, but after that I'm very optimistic about Wojo having the better program.
Quote from: forgetful on December 16, 2016, 02:01:43 AM
For Hudson, I trust ESPN . He was a 4-star and proved it at the D1 level before transferring.
http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/145633/jalen-hudson (http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/145633/jalen-hudson)
As for the rest. I appreciate your stances, but clearly we disagree. We differ in that you place a lot of weight on the top 100 rankings, whereas I place more weight on how they perform once they are in college. I also place a lot of weight on nuances that are not easy to quantify:
e.g. Wojo took over a team that when he showed up only had 9 players, one of whom wasn't eligible for the first semester, another, Mayo was going to be gone regardless, and another Steve whose knees were so bad he was ineffective. He also had much of the core JJJ, Anderson, Burton actively considering transferring.
My point is that one cannot definitively claim anything regarding who had a better scenario, because there are way too many variables. It becomes a matter of opinion.
The reason I brought it up is people underestimate the talent that was on virginia tech when Buzz came in. They neglect that Greenberg had established them as a respected mid-level ACC program, that was in year 2 of a failed rebuild. People also underestimate how bad the situation was at MU. The situations were more similar than they were different.
People championing how great Buzz is doing and criticizing Wojo are not representing reality. It irritates me, especially how negative the board is lately, so if I'm a little irrational in defense of Wojo I apologize and ask for you to give me some leeway.
Now, my opinion is that MU was better positioned for long-term success, but the roster makeup/new coach placed him about 1-year behind Buzz in terms of program building. I think Buzz will outperform Wojo this year and next, but after that I'm very optimistic about Wojo having the better program.
No worries. We are all Marquette fans and Wojo is our coach. I understand the temptation to massage the facts to elevate him and denigrate Buzz. When folks massage gently I try to keep my mouth shut, but when they make outrageous claims (that Marquette and VPI have similar histories and expectations, for example) the MU fan and historian (and admittedly the Buzz fan) in me cries foul.
I agree that over time Wojo will have a better program at MU than Buzz at VPI. We have a 50 year history of being a vastly superior program and given our $ commitment I don't expect that to change. And of course I don't want it to change. I root for Buzz, but make no mistake - if there were 35 wins to be had between the two and I got to choose how to divide them Wojo and MU would be 35-0. That said, as a fan I'll reserve the right to opine on what I see and not what I'd like to see.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 15, 2016, 10:30:53 PMWojo and Buzz have virtually identical results. Both chose the situations they went to carefully. Saying that Buzz should be given credit for having a tougher situation is a load of utter and complete BS because HE PICKED THAT GODDAMN SITUATION!!! Buzz chose to LEAVE here and GO there. He doesn't get bonus points for choosing to jump into a marginal situation and forcing out every player on the roster, some of which who were legitimate D1 star power talents, some of which were viable role-players.
What the crap? Seriously. Giving Buzz extra credit for doing the EXACT SAME JOB Wojo did, and more credit because he decided to run people off (HIS choice) and picked a school more vested in football (HIS choice) that doesn't have as much basketball history as Marquette (HIS choice) is just dumber than dumber than dumber than dumb.
If Buzz wanted a challenge, he should have tried to stick around and abide by the desires of the BoT, and do so with the roster that he built (never mind that multiple players Wojo retained would have left had Buzz stayed). That would have been an impressive rebuild, but he didn't do that because he was afraid he'd lose his reputation if he stayed here longer, so he DELIBERATELY went to a crappy program because it was no-lose.
Character goddamn revealed. He was a coward who couldn't face up to the trainwreck he created, so he grabbed the silver out of the drawer and ran off into the night, expecting that he'd be praised as a genius when he took a crappy school with no expectations or restrictions to the Dance. Give me a freaking break.
One of my favorite posts of all time.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 15, 2016, 10:45:44 PMBe mad at Buzz for leaving if you want. Totally your prerogative. But it doesn't change the fact that the mountain he left to climb was much steeper than the one he was on.
If Buzz was a truly great coach, he would have gone to Florida A&M. Obviously he lacks the courage and ability to take on a real challenge.
Maybe Buzz will start intentionally recruiting inferior players, just to make his job even more challenging.
Or he could wear a blindfold during games.