MUScoop

This is shaping up as one of the best offensive MU teams all-time.  They can flat out score.

But in some stretches MU's defense is flat out horrible?

So, can we learn defense in time to start winning conference games?  Or, are we going to have to outscore everyone to win?

Quote from: Jesse Livermore on November 26, 2016, 08:39:25 PM
This is shaping up as one of the best offensive MU teams all-time.  They can flat out score.

But in some stretches MU's defense is flat out horrible?

So, can we learn defense in time to start winning conference games?  Or, are we going to have to outscore everyone to win?

Always need to in order to win.

Quote from: Jesse Livermore on November 26, 2016, 08:39:25 PMOr, are we going to have to outscore everyone to win?

Yes, we need to outscore to win.  Probably in every game.  I predict if we outscore our opponents, we will win NC!!!!

Quote from: real chili 83 on November 26, 2016, 08:46:22 PM
Yes, we need to outscore to win.  Probably in every game.  I predict if we outscore our opponents, we will win NC!!!!

So true!

Quote from: Jesse Livermore on November 26, 2016, 08:39:25 PM
This is shaping up as one of the best offensive MU teams all-time.  They can flat out score.

But in some stretches MU's defense is flat out horrible?

So, can we learn defense in time to start winning conference games?  Or, are we going to have to outscore everyone to win?

Sloooow down. You're basing this on what again?

Thus far this team plays at a very high tempo.  Don't let the score fool you.  Our offense isn't as good as the score indicates and our defense isn't as bad as the score looks either.

Both our offense and defense need work.  I would agree though I am more concerned about our defensive rebounding and team defense.

But this team is not as good offensively as the Three Amigos last year nor 2003.  It isn't as good as offense as the midget/Lazar team either.

It's a better offense then last year.

Last years offense wasn't very good at all......mostly because of turnovers and mediocre 3 point shooting.. 

Offense last year was 116th in efficiency per Pomeroy.....

Defense is key.  We haven't seen a good defensive team yet under Wojo.  Hope we get this together this year because the Big East at the top is a BEast.

Quote from: MuMark on November 26, 2016, 10:14:47 PM
It's a better offense then last year.

Last years offense wasn't very good at all......mostly because of turnovers and mediocre 3 point shooting.. 

Offense last year was 116th in efficiency per Pomeroy.....

This ...

Ok we can quibble about my statement that this is one of the best offensive teams we have ever seen.  But, their can be little argument that this year's team is much better offensively that last year's team.

Now it's up to Wojo to teach them to play defense.

Defense was still poor v. HBU.  Rotations and close outs continue to be problems.  Good teams will exploit this.

I was going to ask the same question.  And can we please skip the cute little comments and focus on the question because it is very important.
It would seem that we have the necessary talent level to play defense, at least perimeter D.  Both our centers seem to be kind of foot slow particularly for the Big East but those kind of guys do fine in the Big 10.  We've got decent length particularly JJJ and Hanni.
Wojo was supposed to be a defense guy so its hard to believe his practices don't emphasize D.  It seems to me that we have a real probably to communicating on D and to rotating fast enough.  I remember Buzz in one of his Marq revealed segments screaming at the team about the rotations "not being fast enough".  Is there not that kind of pressure to rotate to the correct position quickly so our guys don't focus on improving.  It seems like over and over again as a opponent dribbles past a pick we end up it 2 guys following the ball.  I saw several time last night where 3 guys ended up on the ball so there have to be 2 opponents open.  Our guys also seem to lose their man as he moves without the ball.  Is this a matter of taking the wrong path around screens; is it not enough experience to anticipate; is it not enough effort.
I watched Providence beat Memphis Friday night by going into a 3 quarter zone trap and then zone in the half court.  It was very effective.  Is it easier for team with a lot of "new " parts (like Prov and us) to play a zone?  I realize that it hurts rebounding because you have no assignment to box out but it doesn't seem we make use of boxing our man out much anyway.  How much could it hurt us?  With our depth we ought to be able to play a very active zone trap.  At least the opponent would have less time to carve us up in the half court.
Got to do something.  I don't think we are that talented to rely on simply out scoring decent opponents.
Thoughts?

My thought is that Wojo doesn't want to play zone because it will hurt the transition game.  But a lot of the problems on the defensive end seem very fundamental to me.  Buzz's problems were more of a scheme that over-extended and teams took advantage of that.  And you mentioned, Wojo's guys seem to lose people or rotate too slow.  (And Rowsey has been a problem, which is why he might be sitting.)

I honestly thought the defense was better last night. They shot 43% for the night, 41% from 2, and I don't think they took many open shots. The hit 10 threes but I don't recall many of them being wide open. I saw a lot of deep threes with a man on them. Not much more you can do defensively on those.

Those saying that "off pick and rolls we had two guys following the ball" that's the correct defensive move. The big man follows the balll handler and uses his length to deny any interior passes, negating the open man. The ball handler either has to drive, shoot, or kick out at which point the big man rotates back to his man. Luke has been slow in his rotation back and gets too many bump fouls out on the perimeter. I saw one of those bump fouls but not any easy shots off of the pick and roll last night.

All that being said, we are not a good defensive team. I think we will be trying to win shootouts more than rock fights. Would like to see more pressure on defense. I think the less time we allow opponents to run their half court offense, the more likely we are to get a stop.

Maybe it was me but I saw them missing many open shots. I think we are lacking quickness from our bigs on D and communication on whether defending through screens or switching. But that is just me looking at the game.

In timeouts wojo was begging them to play better d. And yet it was very poor in a lot of cases. He never defined in any way to the players what he meant...

They look confused on d and the defensive intensity is lackluster at best.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 27, 2016, 09:52:11 AM
In timeouts wojo was begging them to play better d. And yet it was very poor in a lot of cases. He never defined in any way to the players what he meant...

You were in the huddle?

They showed the entirety of 2 huddles on fs2 broadcast.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 27, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
They showed the entirety of 2 huddles on fs2 broadcast.

Maybe he didn't go into detail because cameras were present.

Whatever the case it's not working. I hope it does work out I truly do.

If he is and it's still not working...

Or if he isnt...

Not sure which is worse.

This level of defense will not hold up in the big East. I'm hoping it improves.

We have to be able to play defense. I highly doubt we will put up a 100 against seton hall, butler, nova, and Xavier.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 27, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
They showed the entirety of 2 huddles on fs2 broadcast.

That was not anywhere near the entirety.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 27, 2016, 09:55:51 AM
You were in the huddle?

Overnight at the Holiday Express.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6aVbxKf1WM

Need more of this.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 27, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
They showed the entirety of 2 huddles on fs2 broadcast.

Was at the game so I didn't watch the broadcast, so I might be wrong. But if it was one of those inside the huddles...they never show the entire huddle, not even close. They just show the rah rah stuff.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 27, 2016, 12:25:50 PM
Was at the game so I didn't watch the broadcast, so I might be wrong. But if it was one of those inside the huddles...they never show the entire huddle, not even close. They just show the rah rah stuff.

I feel this is one of the biggest criticisms of Wojo and it's like nails on a chalkboard reading it. Heck, half the time I think the commentator says they aren't allowed to show any comments on strategy. It's just a part of the broadcast that is fun for the viewer to see, but we aren't hearing anything they talk about X's & O's.

Pomeroy wrote an article not too long ago that concluded good defense had a high correlation with height. IIRC

MU is 182nd in a avg height according to Pomeroy. We are not long and not overly quick compared to many other high majors I have watched this year.

I agree with TAMU.

OK fine
The d still stinks

As I said

Either he is telling them the right the right stuff or he isnt

Either way it's not good and against a bad team.

And I don't want to hear that hbu is a good offense. Because it's not going to translate to BE play anyway.

It's like nails on a chalkboard ignoring the point of the fact that for 3 seasons this defense has been putrid.

We should try a 2-3 zone

Quote from: tower912 on November 27, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6aVbxKf1WM

Need more of this.

Yeah, where's Dion James when we need him?

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52657.0

If we do not play better defense and we do not play as a team (i.e. better passing, shot selection, drives, outlet passing, etc.) we have another very painful season. Nothing to date suggests the coaching staff has made real progress in these areas.

i hate the defense that mu/duke play, but it's hard to argue that it hasn't been successful for duke.  coach k. tried to use the same philosophy with the usa team, and they revolted until he made changes.  if you think back to the year the big 3 beat duke early in the season, duke pressured the ball as they always do, and we had a bunch of guys that could get good dribble penetration.  i'm sure someone can pull the stats to show how it all shakes out given that there are many extra possessions in a game played in this manner.  wojo isn't willing to budge on this style of ball, and i think he continues to play for the future even if he doesn't have the size/speed he'd like at this point.

fwiw...tv can't show anything strategic in a huddle.  if you don't realize that...you're probably thinking you could be a college d1 coach. 

Quote from: avid1010 on November 28, 2016, 06:58:00 AM
i hate the defense that mu/duke play, but it's hard to argue that it hasn't been successful for duke.  coach k. tried to use the same philosophy with the usa team, and they revolted until he made changes.  if you think back to the year the big 3 beat duke early in the season, duke pressured the ball as they always do, and we had a bunch of guys that could get good dribble penetration.  i'm sure someone can pull the stats to show how it all shakes out given that there are many extra possessions in a game played in this manner.  wojo isn't willing to budge on this style of ball, and i think he continues to play for the future even if he doesn't have the size/speed he'd like at this point.

fwiw...tv can't show anything strategic in a huddle.  if you don't realize that...you're probably thinking you could be a college d1 coach.

the point remains.  Wojo was yelling at them to "play better Defense".  They did not.  To this point he is not getting through to them.(if they are doing what he wants then he just isnt a good defensive coach)  If he is not coaching it right or they are just not getting it we dont know for sure.  In either case its hard to argue that the defense is good. 

If anyone thinks his coaching to this point on the defensive side is working, Id like to hear this argument.

Him yelling and them not doing it doesn't bother me from a defensive perspective.    It was more about staying focused and in the moment and not letting your mind wander toward the next highlight offensive play up 25.   

"In the huddle" segments are useless and no one should read anything into them from a coaching perspective.

Quote from: tower912 on November 28, 2016, 08:27:04 AM
Him yelling and them not doing it doesn't bother me from a defensive perspective.    It was more about staying focused and in the moment and not letting your mind wander toward the next highlight offensive play up 25.   

I dont think the one episode really matters either.  I think its the poor defense and lapses on an almost constant basis that is the problem.

Quote from: Class71 on November 28, 2016, 03:05:19 AM
If we do not play better defense and we do not play as a team (i.e. better passing, shot selection, drives, outlet passing, etc.) we have another very painful season. Nothing to date suggests the coaching staff has made real progress in these areas.

I agree that the defense hasn't improved. But if you don't think that they have improved "playing as a team" I don't know what to tell you. The strategy last season was give Henry the ball and pray he scores. We have seen much better shot selection, ball movement, drives, passing, unselfishness, etc.

I have zero doubts that this team is better than last year's. Better enough to compensate for our tougher schedule/conference? Remains to be seen.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 28, 2016, 08:36:58 AM
I agree that the defense hasn't improved. But if you don't think that they have improved "playing as a team" I don't know what to tell you. The strategy last season was give Henry the ball and pray he scores. We have seen much better shot selection, ball movement, drives, passing, unselfishness, etc.

I have zero doubts that this team is better than last year's. Better enough to compensate for our tougher schedule/conference? Remains to be seen.

Completely agree. Just really need the D to step up. And the seniors need to close out games (see Pitt)

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 08:13:17 AM
the point remains.  Wojo was yelling at them to "play better Defense".  They did not.  To this point he is not getting through to them.(if they are doing what he wants then he just isnt a good defensive coach)  If he is not coaching it right or they are just not getting it we dont know for sure.  In either case its hard to argue that the defense is good. 

If anyone thinks his coaching to this point on the defensive side is working, Id like to hear this argument.

i think the style has been successful at duke.  while i don't like it, i think wojo must feel he has the ability to implement that style successfully at mu.  my hope is that he doesn't have the type of athlete he prefers to implement that style just yet, but that he isn't willing to give up a year or two of development on defense in order to play a defensive style that better matches what this team is. 

my fear is that he can't play the same style at mu as duke does because mu doesn't get the superior recruits that duke does.  wojo is in a better position to make that determination, and he has the most to gain/lose.  if he can't do it, the win/losses record will clearly show it...but i think he gets this season plus 2 more to prove it. 

Quote from: avid1010 on November 28, 2016, 09:14:15 AM
i think the style has been successful at duke.  while i don't like it, i think wojo must feel he has the ability to implement that style successfully at mu.  my hope is that he doesn't have the type of athlete he prefers to implement that style just yet, but that he isn't willing to give up a year or two of development on defense in order to play a defensive style that better matches what this team is. 

my fear is that he can't play the same style at mu as duke does because mu doesn't get the superior recruits that duke does.  wojo is in a better position to make that determination, and he has the most to gain/lose.  if he can't do it, the win/losses record will clearly show it...but i think he gets this season plus 2 more to prove it.

I prefer a coach who adapts to his personnel. If you're an elite program you can afford to recruit to a particular "style" but if not you should go after "the best players available". The best compliment you can give a coach is "He can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his".

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2016, 09:40:53 AM
I prefer a coach who adapts to his personnel. If you're an elite program you can afford to recruit to a particular "style" but if not you should go after "the best players available". The best compliment you can give a coach is "He can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his".

I agree with this.  And most of the players on this rosters and in fact chosen by Wojo.  He may need to adjust his expectations based on the players he can get here?

Let's pump the brakes a little.

MU gave up just as many points to HBU and IUPUI (go Jags) as they did to Pitt and UM.  Unless someone disagrees with the sentiment that the former are not on the same plane as the latter, I would not look too deeply into defense the last two games and try to extrapolate that into something meaningful, or even relevant.

Fact is, OOC is basically "spring training" for the BE season, except that unlike baseball's Spring Training, it counts.  But coaches still use this time to try things out, focus on certain areas of the game (sometimes at the expense of others), play with rotations, etc.  Which means that you're not going to see the same MU team against the cupcakes that you did against Michigan, Pitt or Vandy.

Now I'm not saying that any coach is going to throw a game against a cupcake in order to provide a teachable moment, but I am saying that most coaches don't bring their A-Game to the bakery.  Look at the margin in the last two games... if MU won the last two 59-34 and 68-46, would anyone here be lauding the defense, or would they be concerned with the offense?

In other words.  R-E-L-A-X.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 09:45:40 AM
I agree with this.  And most of the players on this rosters and in fact chosen by Wojo.  He may need to adjust his expectations based on the players he can get here?

Yes, but the most experienced players are not and they set the tone. However, I agree with your and Lenny that a coach needs to be able to adapt to his personnel.

The more I think about it, the less I think Luke is the kind of center that wojo will recruit in the future. I think we'll see more shorter but quick athletes like John in the future.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 28, 2016, 09:40:53 AM
I prefer a coach who adapts to his personnel. If you're an elite program you can afford to recruit to a particular "style" but if not you should go after "the best players available". The best compliment you can give a coach is "He can take his and beat yours or take yours and beat his".

I don't think your opinion is wrong.

But I also think you can recruit to a style and not be elite - Wisconsin, for example.

Quote from: fjm on November 28, 2016, 09:01:07 AMCompletely agree. Just really need the D to step up. And the seniors need to close out games (see Pitt)

Six games doesn't tell the whole story. But as far as the opening chapter goes, KenPom says Marquette is significantly better on both ends of the floor.

2015-16
AdjO 106.9 (8th in the Big East)
AdjD 99.0 (7th in the Big East)

2016-17
AdjO 110.2 (5th in the Big East)
AdjD 95.4 (5th in the Big East)

If that holds true, we're a pretty good bet for the NCAA tournament. Could be we improve as the season goes on — or we crumble in the face of serious competition. Only time will tell. I'm optimistic about this team and genuinely excited about where the program's headed under Wojo.

2-3 zone would be perfect because for a 2-3 you need to have fast players ( we only start 1 true big) so this would be good. Also we only have 2 real good defenders on the team as in JJJ and TC.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 28, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
Six games doesn't tell the whole story. But as far as the opening chapter goes, KenPom says Marquette is significantly better on both ends of the floor.

2015-16
AdjO 106.9 (8th in the Big East)
AdjD 99.0 (7th in the Big East)

2016-17
AdjO 110.2 (5th in the Big East)
AdjD 95.4 (5th in the Big East)

If that holds true, we're a pretty good bet for the NCAA tournament. Could be we improve as the season goes on — or we crumble in the face of serious competition. Only time will tell. I'm optimistic about this team and genuinely excited about where the program's headed under Wojo.

Don't bring your numbers in here and make logical points. My eye test and "in the huddle" comments matter so much more.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 28, 2016, 12:28:28 PM
I don't think your opinion is wrong.

But I also think you can recruit to a style and not be elite - Wisconsin, for example.

True. But just as a Duke would have to alter their style be be successful if they didn't have elite players or athletes, Bo altered his (and moved away from the swing) when he did.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 28, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
Six games doesn't tell the whole story. But as far as the opening chapter goes, KenPom says Marquette is significantly better on both ends of the floor.

2015-16
AdjO 106.9 (8th in the Big East)
AdjD 99.0 (7th in the Big East)

2016-17
AdjO 110.2 (5th in the Big East)
AdjD 95.4 (5th in the Big East)

If that holds true, we're a pretty good bet for the NCAA tournament. Could be we improve as the season goes on — or we crumble in the face of serious competition. Only time will tell. I'm optimistic about this team and genuinely excited about where the program's headed under Wojo.

Damn! Thanks for the stats. You're right, much improved. Well done Marcus!

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 28, 2016, 12:34:16 PM
Don't bring your numbers in here and make logical points. My eye test and "in the huddle" comments matter so much more.

These stats are meaningless right now anyway.  As has been pointed out there are only 6 games.  4 of which are against bad teams(1 slightly above average team) that wont approach the level of 18 BE games that is being used as the comparison.  In fact if you were to surmise anything from these stats it COULD be that they are troubling considering the stats from last year are including 18 BE conference games and the stats this year are against largely cupcakes.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 02:05:09 PM
These stats are meaningless right now anyway.  As has been pointed out there are only 6 games.  4 of which are against bad teams(1 slightly above average team) that wont approach the level of 18 BE games that is being used as the comparison.  In fact if you were to surmise anything from these stats it COULD be that they are troubling considering the stats from last year are including 18 BE conference games and the stats this year are against largely cupcakes.

The stats are adjusted for the level of competition.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 02:05:09 PM
These stats are meaningless right now anyway.  As has been pointed out there are only 6 games.  4 of which are against bad teams(1 slightly above average team) that wont approach the level of 18 BE games that is being used as the comparison.  In fact if you were to surmise anything from these stats it COULD be that they are troubling considering the stats from last year are including 18 BE conference games and the stats this year are against largely cupcakes.

this is fun...tell me what you do for a living so i can make a bunch of incorrect judgments about your performance. 

Quote from: MuMark on November 27, 2016, 12:38:12 PM
Pomeroy wrote an article not too long ago that concluded good defense had a high correlation with height. IIRC

MU is 182nd in a avg height according to Pomeroy. We are not long and not overly quick compared to many other high majors I have watched this year.

I agree with TAMU.

Oh snap, totally forgot about that post, good call. And you're right, our smalls aren't all that quick, the way the three amigos & the midgets team were. That can help mitigate, but with that lack of those two factors, guessing we'll remain fairly pedestrian on D. Hopefully we can juice up the Off efficiency to compensate.

Quote from: avid1010 on November 28, 2016, 03:02:43 PM
this is fun...tell me what you do for a living so i can make a bunch of incorrect judgments about your performance.

6 games and yes, at this point these stats are meaningless.  No less so than passing complete judgement on Wojos ability to coach defense  You cant have it both ways.  Claim that it is too early to cast judgement on this teams defense but then claim stats at this point mean a lot.  Nice try though.

I've yet to have someone claim that the team is playing really good/great defense.  That speaks volumes.  Just that its basically too early to tell and that MU is "improving".

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 03:14:44 PM
I've yet to have someone claim that the team is playing really good/great defense.  That speaks volumes.  Just that its basically too early to tell and that MU is "improving".

And?  I mean, what is your overall point here?  We will know more in 4-6 weeks if the defense has improved.  If it is, we will be happy.  If it isn't, we will have concerns.

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 02:05:09 PMThese stats are meaningless right now anyway.  As has been pointed out there are only 6 games.  4 of which are against bad teams(1 slightly above average team) that wont approach the level of 18 BE games that is being used as the comparison.  In fact if you were to surmise anything from these stats it COULD be that they are troubling considering the stats from last year are including 18 BE conference games and the stats this year are against largely cupcakes.

They're not meaningless stats. They're simply based on limited data — and therefore of limited worth. (As pointed out previously, KenPom's AdjO and AdjD values are adjusted for the level of competition.)

At no point last season did KenPom rate Marquette as highly as it's rated right now (42nd in the country, solid NCAA bubble territory). MU opened the 2015-16 season rated 53rd, was rated as low as 120th after struggling against Stetson, and finished the season rated 100th.

Things could change, of course. But from everything that I've seen, I'm confident that Marquette is a significantly better team this year.

Quote from: Dr. Vinnie Boombatz on November 28, 2016, 03:18:44 PM

And?  I mean, what is your overall point here?  We will know more in 4-6 weeks if the defense has improved.  If it is, we will be happy.  If it isn't, we will have concerns.

My point is (and I know that Im not alone here) the quality of team defense for two plus seasons is very concerning.  Some people seem to want to put their head in the sand and ignore it or wish it away.

Someone said that their expectations were that MU should make either the NIT or the NCAA this season.  I find that a reasonable goal.  If the defense stays the way it has the last 2 seasons plus 6 games.  I would guess they don't reach that mark.

I hope they improve under Wojo i really do.  That is the best case scenario for MU. 

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 28, 2016, 03:24:43 PM
They're not meaningless stats. They're simply based on limited data — and therefore of limited worth. (As pointed out previously, KenPom's AdjO and AdjD values are adjusted for the level of competition.)

At no point last season did KenPom rate Marquette as highly as it's rated right now (42nd in the country, solid NCAA bubble territory). MU opened the 2015-16 season rated 53rd, was rated as low as 120th after struggling against Stetson, and finished the season rated 100th.

Things could change, of course. But from everything that I've seen, I'm confident that Marquette is a significantly better team this year.

Completely agree.  Better stated "limited worth"

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 03:25:03 PM
My point is (and I know that Im not alone here) the quality of team defense for two plus seasons is very concerning.  Some people seem to want to put their head in the sand and ignore it or wish it away.

I don't see anyone doing that.  Some people are seeing signs of improvement.  Others aren't.

As I said, we will know in 4-6 weeks. 

What was that saying again??

"The best Defense is a good Offense"? ... "The best Offense is a good Defense"? ... "The best Defense is a good Defense"?

yeah that's it!   "The best Defense is...a good Defense"   :)

So that's my advice to Wojo...go with the good defense!

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 03:25:03 PM
My point is (and I know that Im not alone here) the quality of team defense for two plus seasons is very concerning.  Some people seem to want to put their head in the sand and ignore it or wish it away.

Someone said that their expectations were that MU should make either the NIT or the NCAA this season.  I find that a reasonable goal.  If the defense stays the way it has the last 2 seasons plus 6 games.  I would guess they don't reach that mark.

I hope they improve under Wojo i really do.  That is the best case scenario for MU.

Curious, are you in the camp to give Wojo 5 years?

Some of my favorite quotes on basketball defense:

"Defense is all about helping. No one can guard a good dribbler. You have to walk kids through how to help and then how to help the helper." Bob Knight

"Winning is more related to good defense than good offense." Dr. Jack Ramsay

"The difference between a good defensive team and a bad defensive team is as little as three possessions." Brad Stevens

"If you're not talking, you're not playing defense." Doc Rivers

"My philosophy of defense is to keep the pressure on an opponent until you get to his emotions." John Wooden

"Defense is one man guarding the ball and four others helping him." Coach K

"Those to whom defense is not important will have the best seat in the game." Rick Majerus

"I learned defense from Bobby Knight and psychology from Al McGuire." Digger Phelps

Quote from: Let's Go Warriors on November 28, 2016, 02:05:09 PM
These stats are meaningless right now anyway.  As has been pointed out there are only 6 games.  4 of which are against bad teams(1 slightly above average team) that wont approach the level of 18 BE games that is being used as the comparison.  In fact if you were to surmise anything from these stats it COULD be that they are troubling considering the stats from last year are including 18 BE conference games and the stats this year are against largely cupcakes.

Except our Big East brethren have played similar schedules and comparatively we are doing better against them than we did last season. I would have to run the numbers again (last laptop got destoryed and I lost last year's spreadsheets) but I'm pretty sure both our defensive and offensive ratings were worse six games in last season. And we played a much softer schedule.

The numbers aren't definitive, that is true. But again, most of the numbers say we are better team this year than last year. Could just be early season flukes but they are pointing towards an improved team.

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 28, 2016, 04:29:51 PM
Some of my favorite quotes on basketball defense:

"Defense is all about helping. No one can guard a good dribbler. You have to walk kids through how to help and then how to help the helper." Bob Knight

"Winning is more related to good defense than good offense." Dr. Jack Ramsay

"The difference between a good defensive team and a bad defensive team is as little as three possessions." Brad Stevens

"If you're not talking, you're not playing defense." Doc Rivers

"My philosophy of defense is to keep the pressure on an opponent until you get to his emotions." John Wooden

"Defense is one man guarding the ball and four others helping him." Coach K

"Those to whom defense is not important will have the best seat in the game." Rick Majerus

"I learned defense from Bobby Knight and psychology from Al McGuire." Digger Phelps

Nice.

I wonder what its like to go 4 years under a great coach....great stuff....not counting the occasional Knight knuckle sandwich.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on November 28, 2016, 08:36:58 AM
I agree that the defense hasn't improved. But if you don't think that they have improved "playing as a team" I don't know what to tell you. The strategy last season was give Henry the ball and pray he scores. We have seen much better shot selection, ball movement, drives, passing, unselfishness, etc.

I have zero doubts that this team is better than last year's. Better enough to compensate for our tougher schedule/conference? Remains to be seen.

Agree on the HE comment also agree vs. last year. I was referring to the lack of progress this year and how far we must go in a very short period of time to become relevant. Under Buzz, I hate to say this, there were a number of times that real progress was made from game to game. The season is young so maybe it will happen but I am not sure if the offense is more than shoot 3's, drive and hope for the best. Three shooting has improved considerably but passing, protecting the ball, finding the open man, kick-outs, etc. maybe better than last year but it is still well below being competitive in the BE.

Maybe I am wrong but I think these fundamentals can and should be taught early. I certainly give underclassman a pass but the issue is larger than that.

At this point I think forget the top 4 in the BE. We have little chance of a win home or away. SH at 5 is big and strong with some outside shooting. Not looking good for us but on a good day maybe 1 win. That leaves Gtown, DePaul, St. John's and Providence. That means to be at .500 we need to sweep these four and split with SH or for every loss to the bottom 4 we need to win one from the top 4.

Given the above, for us to go .500 in BE is a long shot. Going into season three, I have to admit, I expected more. 10-8 would be a success but it looks pretty far away at this point.

Appreciate your thoughts.

So far....No!

Quote from: Marcus92 on November 28, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
Six games doesn't tell the whole story. But as far as the opening chapter goes, KenPom says Marquette is significantly better on both ends of the floor.

2015-16
AdjO 106.9 (8th in the Big East)
AdjD 99.0 (7th in the Big East)

2016-17
AdjO 110.2 (5th in the Big East)
AdjD 95.4 (5th in the Big East)

If that holds true, we're a pretty good bet for the NCAA tournament. Could be we improve as the season goes on — or we crumble in the face of serious competition. Only time will tell. I'm optimistic about this team and genuinely excited about where the program's headed under Wojo.

Please restate AdjO and AdjD by year on a comparative basis (adjusted for average D-1 team).

Quote from: Benny B on November 28, 2016, 09:59:15 AM
MU gave up just as many points to HBU and IUPUI (go Jags) as they did to Pitt and UM.  Unless someone disagrees with the sentiment that the former are not on the same plane as the latter, I would not look too deeply
into defense the last two games and try to extrapolate that into something meaningful, or even relevant.

Please adjust points per game to a possessions basis (doesn't change things much at all, but points per game isn't relevant by itself).

BTW.. key for me.. is that vs Pitt and Michigan .. we let them shot 60.0% from 2-point range. That's awful. Against HBU & IUPUI.. only 43.6% 2FG%. BIG difference and very meaningful. 

Quote from: Jay Bee on November 28, 2016, 08:23:30 PM
Please adjust points per game to a possessions basis (doesn't change things much at all, but points per game isn't relevant by itself).

BTW.. key for me.. is that vs Pitt and Michigan .. we let them shot 60.0% from 2-point range. That's awful. Against HBU & IUPUI.. only 43.6% 2FG%. BIG difference and very meaningful.

True, but need to consider the opponent?

Quote from: Nukem2 on November 28, 2016, 08:41:33 PM
True, but need to consider the opponent?

Yep -- AND your personnel choices --- AND your style of play, etc, driven by the opponent & flow of game.

Quote from: Jay Bee on November 28, 2016, 08:20:50 PMPlease restate AdjO and AdjD by year on a comparative basis (adjusted for average D-1 team).

True, you can't compare the numerical values for AdjO and AdjD from different seasons. I should have left those out to avoid confusion. But the relative rankings within the Big East do suggest improvement (especially with the strength of the conference this year).

Quote from: Jay Bee on November 28, 2016, 08:23:30 PM
Please adjust points per game to a possessions basis (doesn't change things much at all, but points per game isn't relevant by itself).

BTW.. key for me.. is that vs Pitt and Michigan .. we let them shot 60.0% from 2-point range. That's awful. Against HBU & IUPUI.. only 43.6% 2FG%. BIG difference and very meaningful.

Exactly.  In a fast pace game where you score a lot of points, you're also going to give up a lot of points.  What you score/allow on an absolute basis is virtually irrelevant... margin of victory is key (which is influenced by %ages)