MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on November 19, 2016, 12:57:33 PM
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MU struggled to guard the high pick and roll against Michigan and against Pitt. Luke struggled in isolation against Young.
Any good coach is going to have whoever Luke is guarding be the screener on the high pick and roll. This takes Luke away from the basket. As MU played it against Pitt and Michigan, Luke hedges and then tries to recover, with whomever is guarding the weak side wing supposed to guard the paint. The problem is that guy is generally 6'5. If Luke's man is also a shooter, he pops out and Luke is late closing on the shooter. If Luke's man rolls, Luke's hedging has been half-assed, leaving no pressure on the PG and lots of space for the big rolling to the basket.
Luke is not a good defender in space. He is a solid post defender and help defender on drives, but when matched up against a mobile big with range, he struggles.
His struggles are compounded by the lack of size behind him. When a Michigan big would roll and receive an open pass, is it reasonable to expect KR/JJ/HC to be able to contest at the rim?
This isn't going anywhere the way the defense is currently configured. Luke can switch all day, but it won't matter. His guy, whoever it is will always be the screener.
Things to try: Zone.
Extending pressure, double teaming wayyyyy out high with wings to force the ball out of the primary ballhandlers hands so that the pick and roll isn't as smooth.
Changing the way we defend the screen and roll, having Luke not hedge and stay with his man, giving up jump shots to PG's or taking the chance they turn the corner and try to have them drive into traffic.
This, along with rebounding, was my primary concern about this team. I warned about it during the offseason. It will be a test of Wojo's chops to find the right adjustment. Hint: Zone.
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makes sense tower.............hope Wojo reads this
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Kyle Washington would be so helpful right about now
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Kyle Washington would be so helpful right about now
Was so disappointed we missed on him. Lavin might have been helpful too.
Nichols would have been perfect. But who knows if he would have seen the field. Dismissed today for violation of team rules. In my experience, sudden dismissals for violation of team rules is often title ix related.
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Kyle Washington would be so helpful right about now
Were we a player when he transferred?
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Were we a player when he transferred?
Yes. Couldn't convince him that Hank was going to go pro 100%.
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Were we a player when he transferred?
Yes, came down to us and Cincy. We beat them for Rowsey, lost out for Washington.
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Yes. Couldn't convince him that Hank was going to go pro 100%.
Should of had him talk to Wades.
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Yes, came down to us and Cincy. We beat them for Rowsey, lost out for Washington.
So we won the battle at a position where we're too deep and lost at the one where we don't have anyone. Awesome.
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Yes. Couldn't convince him that Hank was going to go pro 100%.
He should have consulted with scoop. Some here knew before HE apparently.
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So we won the battle at a position where we're too deep and lost at the one where we don't have anyone. Awesome.
At the time we had a five star freshman at the position. I love Henry but his recruitment negatively affected our chances with at very least Gabe Levin, Steve Taylor, Kyle Washington, and Austin Nichols. I do find myself wondering if long term we would have been better off if Henry went to Kentucky. No guarantee that Levin stays or Washington/Nichols commit but if they had I think we would be in a better position now. Levin/Taylor last season and Levin/Washington this season might have been more valuable than 1 season of Henry.
To be clear, I think recruiting Henry was the right decision. Gotta get the 5 star when you can. Just wish we would have been able to keep the other PFs on the roster. I want to have my cake and eat it too dammit!
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This isn't going anywhere the way the defense is currently configured. Luke can switch all day, but it won't matter. His guy, whoever it is will always be the screener.
Things to try: Zone.
Extending pressure, double teaming wayyyyy out high with wings to force the ball out of the primary ballhandlers hands so that the pick and roll isn't as smooth.
Changing the way we defend the screen and roll, having Luke not hedge and stay with his man, giving up jump shots to PG's or taking the chance they turn the corner and try to have them drive into traffic.
What I see is that Luke isn't really hedging on the high screen — sliding out to disrupt the ball handler's movement toward the basket on a screen. He's essentially switching and staying with the ball handler too long. This gets him caught in no man's land. Not many big men can guard a 1, 2 or 3 off the dribble. And then he's too far away to recover to his man (the screener).
It could be that Luke is playing the way Wojo wants — to switch. Seems like an easier fix is for Luke to hedge instead, then get right back to his man. Better team communication on defense should help, as well.
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What I see is that Luke isn't really hedging on the high screen — sliding out to disrupt the ball handler's movement toward the basket on a screen. He's essentially switching and staying with the ball handler too long. This gets him caught in no man's land. Not many big men can guard a 1, 2 or 3 off the dribble. And then he's too far away to recover to his man (the screener).
It could be that Luke is playing the way Wojo wants — to switch. Seems like an easier fix is for Luke to hedge instead, then get right back to his man. Better team communication on defense should help, as well.
We are seeing the same thing, just describing it somewhat differently. We have to assume Luke is doing what Wojo wants, as Wojo hasn't been screaming at him and pulling him out when he does it and gives up a basket.
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We are seeing the same thing, just describing it somewhat differently. We have to assume Luke is doing what Wojo wants, as Wojo hasn't been screaming at him and pulling him out when he does it and gives up a basket.
I agree with this. With this style of Defense on the pick and roll, is it valid to think that Fischer is being told to play it this way? Maybe someone else is supposed to rotate over on the roll man? I dont think Fischer or Wojo are dumb. How can it be that Fischer is playing what appears to be repeatedly stupid defense over and over again? And in many cases putting him in a position to get a foul 22' from the basket?
At some point while this style can be very valid, dont you have to give up on it?
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Buzz used to have his big, Davante/Otule/JFB/Jamil/Jae/Lazar seriously double and turn the PG away from the basket out toward the wing. Then, once the PG turned and reset out on the wing, they would be sprinting back into the lane with their hands up to potentially blindly block a pass to a post. The weakside wing would be sitting in the lane, ready to recover back out their shooter as the MU big returned to the middle. Wojo's system is less extreme and does seem to leave Luke in no-man's land. I don't know if this is systemic or due to Luke's lack of lateral quickness.
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Buzz used to have his big, Davante/Otule/JFB/Jamil/Jae/Lazar seriously double and turn the PG away from the basket out toward the wing. Then, once the PG turned and reset out on the wing, they would be sprinting back into the lane with their hands up to potentially blindly block a pass to a post. The weakside wing would be sitting in the lane, ready to recover back out their shooter as the MU big returned to the middle. Wojo's system is less extreme and does seem to leave Luke in no-man's land. I don't know if this is systemic or due to Luke's lack of lateral quickness.
We should try a 2-3 zone
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At the time we had a five star freshman at the position. I love Henry but his recruitment negatively affected our chances with at very least Gabe Levin, Steve Taylor, Kyle Washington, and Austin Nichols. I do find myself wondering if long term we would have been better off if Henry went to Kentucky. No guarantee that Levin stays or Washington/Nichols commit but if they had I think we would be in a better position now. Levin/Taylor last season and Levin/Washington this season might have been more valuable than 1 season of Henry.
To be clear, I think recruiting Henry was the right decision. Gotta get the 5 star when you can. Just wish we would have been able to keep the other PFs on the roster. I want to have my cake and eat it too dammit!
This is 100% plus it artificially raised expectations on the program. I know you have to take the 5 star in your backyard who wants to come here, but man I don't know that it worked out in our favor long term.
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We have to assume Luke is doing what Wojo wants, as Wojo hasn't been screaming at him and pulling him out when he does it and gives up a basket.
You're probably right here.
Luke does eventually get back to his man — assuming the screener hasn't rolled to the basket and gotten a mismatch or open look down low — but I'm always surprised to see Luke stay with the ball handler as long as he does. In my head (or sometimes out loud), I'm screaming "get back, get back!"
I'm sure Wojo is well aware of the risks of this approach. Maybe the defense is primarily designed to stop dribble-drive penetration — giving the on-ball defender more help and hopefully forcing more steals (leading to fast-break points) or lower-percentage shots. We are a Top 50 team in steal percentage, although only slightly above average in terms of turnovers. Defensive eFG%, 2PT% and 3PT% are all better than the D1 average, but not by much. All those stats are improved over last season.
KenPom currently projects Marquette as the 5th best offense and defense in the Big East this season — versus 8th and 7th, respectively, a year ago. It's by no means a great team on either side of the ball. But it might just be good enough to get us back to the NCAAs.
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This is 100% plus it artificially raised expectations on the program. I know you have to take the 5 star in your backyard who wants to come here, but man I don't know that it worked out in our favor long term.
The expectations for the program are the same regardless of HE. I believe you are talking about timing...how soon MU returns to 'satisfactory' performance.
Fact of the matter is MU needs to become an NCAA tourney team this year or next year. Otherwise we will be comparing to some pretty dark days in basketball history.
I just think that rationalizing your way into HE being a huge detriment to the program is just a smoke screen - you only talk about it if we fail to reach the expectations set by MU.
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The expectations for the program are the same regardless of HE. I believe you are talking about timing...how soon MU returns to 'satisfactory' performance.
Fact of the matter is MU needs to become an NCAA tourney team this year or next year. Otherwise we will be comparing to some pretty dark days in basketball history.
I just think that rationalizing your way into HE being a huge detriment to the program is just a smoke screen - you only talk about it if we fail to reach the expectations set by MU.
May be parsing words, but if by timing you mean the timetable to return to those lofty expectations then yes I agree. HE accelerated the perceived timeline for when MU would be back in the tournament. Basically HE was an energy drink...you get an initial surge but eventually you crash out because you tried to do things artificially.
Again, this is hindsight given how HE did at MU, what remains to be seen is: did HE not totally work out because of HE or did it not work out because Wojo couldn't coach the group he had correctly. Jury is out right now.
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May be parsing words, but if by timing you mean the timetable to return to those lofty expectations then yes I agree. HE accelerated the perceived timeline for when MU would be back in the tournament. Basically HE was an energy drink...you get an initial surge but eventually you crash out because you tried to do things artificially.
Again, this is hindsight given how HE did at MU, what remains to be seen is: did HE not totally work out because of HE or did it not work out because Wojo couldn't coach the group he had correctly. Jury is out right now.
I agree, but both for the good and bad College Basketball is just a string of energy drinks.
With only five guys starting, only 7-8 playing, early entrants into the NBA, grad transfers, regular transfers, etc, etc, etc. It is a sport that can be impacted quickly (both good and bad) and momentum is huge for both recruiting and your ability to get grad transfers.
There is a reason that coaches are panicky fellows that always try to win next year.
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This is 100% plus it artificially raised expectations on the program. I know you have to take the 5 star in your backyard who wants to come here, but man I don't know that it worked out in our favor long term.
I agree with both you and TAMU on this. It's one of the reasons I laugh when people contrast Buzz and Wojo. Buzz was "quick fix", they say, and as evidence point to two year (Buycks, Fulce, Crowder) and three year (Jamil, JFB, DJO) players he recruited. Why he even brought in a one year player in Trent Lockett! Wojo, OTOH, is a "long term" builder - who brought three "one and dones" (Carlino, HE and Reinhardt) to MU in three years and has gone hard after several others unsuccessfully. And he's brought in two year players Levin (briefly), Wally E and Rowsey. Bottom line: if anything, Wojo has been more aggressive with the quick fix, rebuild on the fly approach than Buzz. But because it hasn't been successful, people here have created the myth of his "long term approach".
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I agree with both you and TAMU on this. It's one of the reasons I laugh when people contrast Buzz and Wojo. Buzz was "quick fix", they say, and as evidence point to two year (Buycks, Fulce, Crowder) and three year (Jamil, JFB, DJO) players he recruited. Why he even brought in a one year player in Trent Lockett! Wojo, OTOH, is a "long term" builder - who brought three "one and dones" (Carlino, HE and Reinhardt) to MU in three years and has gone hard after several others unsuccessfully. And he's brought in two year players Levin (briefly), Wally E and Rowsey. Bottom line: if anything, Wojo has been more aggressive with the quick fix, rebuild on the fly approach than Buzz. But because it hasn't been successful, people here have created the myth of his "long term approach".
Excellent point. And then add to the fact that there are some on this board that decry anything that may mention that Wojo COULD possibly be in over his head at this point in his first head coaching gig. I really hope he gets this thing going. I REALLY do, because MU gets back to where they need to be quicker if Wojo works out. I am however, having my doubts with regards to his ability to teach defense to this team.
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Excellent point. And then add to the fact that there are some on this board that decry anything that may mention that Wojo COULD possibly be in over his head at this point in his first head coaching gig. I really hope he gets this thing going. I REALLY do, because MU gets back to where they need to be quicker if Wojo works out. I am however, having my doubts with regards to his ability to teach defense to this team.
I haven't seen anyone "decry anything that may mention that wojo could be in over his head." I have seen people decry things that declare that wojo is a failure and will never get better and should be fired immediately.
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I agree with both you and TAMU on this. It's one of the reasons I laugh when people contrast Buzz and Wojo. Buzz was "quick fix", they say, and as evidence point to two year (Buycks, Fulce, Crowder) and three year (Jamil, JFB, DJO) players he recruited. Why he even brought in a one year player in Trent Lockett! Wojo, OTOH, is a "long term" builder - who brought three "one and dones" (Carlino, HE and Reinhardt) to MU in three years and has gone hard after several others unsuccessfully. And he's brought in two year players Levin (briefly), Wally E and Rowsey. Bottom line: if anything, Wojo has been more aggressive with the quick fix, rebuild on the fly approach than Buzz. But because it hasn't been successful, people here have created the myth of his "long term approach".
But Wojo did that because he had too, because he was left an incomplete roster. It doesn't seem to be his preferred method. Buzz on the other hand, had a full roster given to him and still recruited a lot of "quick fix" players.
I think Buzz's "quick fix" guys stick out more because they were typically our best players, while his HS recruits were largely unsuccessful.
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I haven't seen anyone "decry anything that may mention that wojo could be in over his head." I have seen people decry things that declare that wojo is a failure and will never get better and should be fired immediately.
Not only that, but I don't see many posters who take a more optimistic view than "he's a work in progress."
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But Wojo did that because he had too, because he was left an incomplete roster. It doesn't seem to be his preferred method. Buzz on the other hand, had a full roster given to him and still recruited a lot of "quick fix" players.
I think Buzz's "quick fix" guys stick out more because they were typically our best players, while his HS recruits were largely unsuccessful.
One could also argue (I'd be one) that Buzz's quick fix program worked as long as Buzz was here but as soon as he was almost gone the talent pool cratered and left us the mess Wojo is still trying to clean up. I think it was Paint Touches that did a breakdown of Buzz's high school (i.e. long term) talent misses, it was amazing almost no player that wasn't a Juco developed or succeeded at MU. Could be Buzz couldn't develop players or was bad at spotting high school talent but either way with out the patch work of Juco's in Buzz's last year and Wojo's first two years the whole thing fell apart.
Clearly Wojo hasn't had the eye Buzz did for Juco/transfer players, but I also think Wojo is building a foundation in which we don't have to depend on that route. Should a great player be available, Wojo'd take him I'm sure but we don't have to depend on it by developing talent and keeping classes balanced, etc.
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I haven't seen anyone "decry anything that may mention that wojo could be in over his head." I have seen people decry things that declare that wojo is a failure and will never get better and should be fired immediately.
Maybe i missed it as well, but I dont see anyone saying Wojo should be fired immediately. I have seen however, some say he should get the remainder of this season and then if things arent working out he should be let go.
To me it would not be based only on record. Id want to see strides of improvement in the area of team defense before I made a decision. I do completely disagree with those who say he should just get 2 more years after this one.
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Excellent point. And then add to the fact that there are some on this board that decry anything that may mention that Wojo COULD possibly be in over his head at this point in his first head coaching gig. I really hope he gets this thing going. I REALLY do, because MU gets back to where they need to be quicker if Wojo works out. I am however, having my doubts with regards to his ability to teach defense to this team.
People react negatively to hyperbole, not to the reasonable position that there is cause for concern around Wojo. I've been one of the folks leading the "Wojo might not be a good game manager/coach" drum but no one is decrying my position because I'm not flying off the handle saying we're all going to die and that Wojo is the worst. Have a reasonable viewpoint and even better have evidence to back it up and the decrying will be kept to a minimum in my experience. ;)
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Maybe i missed it as well, but I dont see anyone saying Wojo should be fired immediately. I have seen however, some say he should get the remainder of this season and then if things arent working out he should be let go.
To me it would not be based only on record. Id want to see strides of improvement in the area of team defense before I made a decision. I do completely disagree with those who say he should just get 2 more years after this one.
Firing him after this year is basically firing him immediately. And it's simply not going to happen regardless if you think it should or not. Unless they completely fall apart, he is going to be given at least one more year. Probably more.
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Firing him after this year is basically firing him immediately. And it's simply not going to happen regardless if you think it should or not. Unless they completely fall apart, he is going to be given at least one more year. Probably more.
The bold is absurd. You stating you know for a fact what is going to happen is also absurd. Id say under 500 in the BE and he COULD be in trouble. Depending on how they are playing.
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The bold is absurd. You stating you know for a fact what is going to happen is also absurd. Id say under 500 in the BE and he COULD be in trouble. Depending on how they are playing.
Look, it's not going to happen. They are not going to let him go when he has two highly rated recruiting classes coming off their freshman and sophomore seasons. They extended him last year for a reason. Unless he finishes significantly under .500 or has other issues arise, they have made a long-term investment in him.
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The bold is absurd. You stating you know for a fact what is going to happen is also absurd. Id say under 500 in the BE and he COULD be in trouble. Depending on how they are playing.
Not only is it not absurd it is 100% correct. Whether you like it or not, the people that make the decisions are completely behind Wojo and he has at least this season and next to meet expectations. Baring something catastrophic on the court or something significantly bad off the court the coaching chair isn't even warm after this season. And that's not my opinion, that is direct from people who have say in the decision.
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Not only is it not absurd it is 100% correct. Whether you like it or not, the people that make the decisions are completely behind Wojo and he has at least this season and next to meet expectations.Baring something catastrophic on the court or something significantly bad off the court the coaching chair isn't even warm after this season. And that's not my opinion, that is direct from people who have say in the decision.
What do you think those expectations are? Tournament?
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I agree with this. With this style of Defense on the pick and roll, is it valid to think that Fischer is being told to play it this way? Maybe someone else is supposed to rotate over on the roll man? I dont think Fischer or Wojo are dumb. How can it be that Fischer is playing what appears to be repeatedly stupid defense over and over again? And in many cases putting him in a position to get a foul 22' from the basket?
At some point while this style can be very valid, dont you have to give up on it?
I dunno. What has Wojo been saying in the televised huddles? You seem to put a lot of stake in that.
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I dunno. What has Wojo been saying in the televised huddles? You seem to put a lot of stake in that.
And you seem to post a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic.
What are your thoughts on MUs pick and roll defense?
Is it good?
Is there a strategy concern?
How is the overall defense?
Say something, anything that displays any rational thought whatsoever.
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And you seem to post a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic.
What are your thoughts on MUs pick and roll defense?
Is it good?
Is there a strategy concern?
How is the overall defense?
Say something, anything that displays any rational thought whatsoever.
Jes apparently the nana nana argument you normally make won't work here
(http://i.imgur.com/ONs2X.gif)
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What do you think those expectations are? Tournament?
I'd say leadership expectations are improvement on last year and make a post season tournament of some type (NIT or NCAA). Next year is the year they are expecting NCAA at a minimum. Preference is definitely this year of course.
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But Wojo did that because he had too, because he was left an incomplete roster. It doesn't seem to be his preferred method. Buzz on the other hand, had a full roster given to him and still recruited a lot of "quick fix" players.
I think Buzz's "quick fix" guys stick out more because they were typically our best players, while his HS recruits were largely unsuccessful.
For every year but year 1 Buzz was left with an "incomplete roster". By year 3, there was nobody left from the Crean era on Buzz's team. This year (his third) Wojo has Fischer, JJJ and Duane Wilson.
Once the gap of a bare cupboard was bridged (for years 2, 3 and 4), Buzz had zero jucos in year 5 (Elite 8, Big East regular season champ) and year 6 (disappointment largely due to Vander leaving).
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I'd say leadership expectations are improvement on last year and make a post season tournament of some type (NIT or NCAA). Next year is the year they are expecting NCAA at a minimum. Preference is definitely this year of course.
This is reasonable.
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The bold is absurd. You stating you know for a fact what is going to happen is also absurd. Id say under 500 in the BE and he COULD be in trouble. Depending on how they are playing.
Allow me to clarify. When I said "fired immediately" I meant either now or at the end of the season. Barring major off the court issues or less than three Big East wins, Wojo will be our coach next year.
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And you seem to post a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic.
What are your thoughts on MUs pick and roll defense?
Is it good?
Is there a strategy concern?
How is the overall defense?
Say something, anything that displays any rational thought whatsoever.
As Marcus92 pointed out in another thread, we have actually improved both our offensive and defensive efficiency from last season by a significant margin. Its way too early to declare that the defense is better, but any stats we have point to us being better as a whole. Will it be enough improvement given our tougher schedule/conference? We will see.
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And you seem to post a bunch of nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic.
What are your thoughts on MUs pick and roll defense?
Is it good?
Is there a strategy concern?
How is the overall defense?
Say something, anything that displays any rational thought whatsoever.
The relevant nonsense is you putting any weight, whatsoever, on the televised huddles. And I only brought it up because you continue to mention it over and over.
We are (mostly) young team still learning. Wojo clearly wants to play a certain style. Whether or not we have the talent/ability/experience to play it, I'm not sure.
I don't believe there is a concern, yet. Give it time. When we get into conference play, narrow down the rotation, then I'll evaluate. Early non-con is not the time to panic. As evidenced by objective data, we are improving.
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The relevant nonsense is you putting any weight, whatsoever, on the televised huddles. And I only brought it up because you continue to mention it over and over.
We are (mostly) young team still learning. Wojo clearly wants to play a certain style. Whether or not we have the talent/ability/experience to play it, I'm not sure.
I don't believe there is a concern, yet. Give it time. When we get into conference play, narrow down the rotation, then I'll evaluate. Early non-con is not the time to panic. As evidenced by objective data, we are improving.
You are full of crap. I have not brought it up over and over. You are harping on it. let it go...
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You are full of crap. I have not brought it up over and over. You are harping on it. let it go...
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52722.msg875189#msg875189
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52722.msg875059#msg875059
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52722.msg875054#msg875054
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Jes apparently the nana nana argument you normally make won't work here
(http://i.imgur.com/ONs2X.gif)
Hey, I know my role around here. As long as others understand it too.
Surprising it didn't work. It so often does.
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http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52722.msg875189#msg875189
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52722.msg875059#msg875059
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=52722.msg875054#msg875054
did you actually read my subsequent responses or are you just being a jag on purpose?
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Perhaps it's fitting for this thread that people seem to be getting so defensive.
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Perhaps it's fitting for this thread that people seem to be getting so defensive.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/cD7PLGE1KWOhG/giphy.gif)
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/cD7PLGE1KWOhG/giphy.gif)
Yeah, it was a terrible joke.
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(https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1380238785ra/681581.gif)