MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: GGGG on August 30, 2016, 10:51:19 AM
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I saw people commenting about how one of the biggest mistakes Marquette has made was dropping football. I am curious what people think Marquette athletics would look like now had they decided not to drop football in the 1960s.
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It only became an issue in the mid-1990s when college football was a real revenue source. for 30 to 35 years it really did not matter.
But if we want to rehash this again ...
How many private Urban schools are good at D1 football. I count two "The U" (Miami) and USC ... Both had strong histories and are in the middle of football recruiting hotbeds. MU has neither.
Again, private Urban schools are not football powers. Please let this conversation end.
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No way we could have consistently competed in a Power 5 Conference.
The Big 3 private schools are Notre Dame, Stanford and Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt would not be in the SEC today if it had not been a charter member in 1933. Notre Dame spends more money than God on its football program and probably is successful because Knute Rockne is their version of "Al".
Stanford has been a good football power but again was a founding member of the Pac 10 and I question whether they would have been in the Pac 10 today if they weren't in forever and a day.
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No way we could have consistently competed in a Power 5 Conference.
The Big 3 private schools are Notre Dame, Stanford and Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt would not be in the SEC today if it had not been a charter member in 1933. Notre Dame spends more money than God on its football program and probably is successful because Knute Rockne is their version of "Al".
Stanford has been a good football power but again was a founding member of the Pac 10 and I question whether they would have been in the Pac 10 today if they weren't in forever and a day.
Ditto Northwestern in the B1G for all the reasons above.
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Where's the option for "Turned into a Subway Sandwich University."
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Ditto Northwestern in the B1G for all the reasons above.
Yes
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This was MU's last/best chance of being a football power. Restated MU's chance at being a football power ended 70 years ago ......
A look back at last three Big Ten expansions
By Tom Dienhart, BTN.com Senior Writer
- See more at: http://btn.com/2014/06/30/a-look-back-at-the-last-three-big-ten-expansions/#sthash.BnQKadnN.dpuf
But when the University of Chicago dropped from the Big Ten in 1946, Michigan State was primed to join. Nebraska, Notre Dame, Iowa State, Marquette and Pitt also were considered. But MSU ultimately was tabbed in May 1949 and began competition in 1953.
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It isn't just ND, Northwestern, Stanford, and Vanderbilt. We would/could have gone the way of...Boston College.
It has been a while since they have been competitive in football, but chances are we would have been a football-playing member of the BE, and might at some point have had a chance to go along with them.
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It isn't just ND, Northwestern, Stanford, and Vanderbilt. We would/could have gone the way of...Boston College.
It has been a while since they have been competitive in football, but chances are we would have been a football-playing member of the BE, and might at some point have had a chance to go along with them.
MU would likely be in the situation where UConn and Cincy find themselves - a strong basketball school whose football program isn't strong enough (and market not big enough) to get an invite to a Power 5 conference.
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MU would likely be in the situation where UConn and Cincy find themselves - a strong basketball school whose football program isn't strong enough (and market not big enough) to get an invite to a Power 5 conference.
I don't necessarily disagree. I was just pointing out that the examples people were using (ND, plus some schools that were founding members of their conferences) aren't the only private schools that currently sit in P5 conferences.
It is likely that we'd be more like UConn...but it's at least possible that we could be like BC.
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I just don't see how it could have survived. Stadium needed replacing. Team was bad for a decade. It would have taken major investment to turn things around and be attractive enough for a big conference.
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Why do people assume that with football MU hoops of the late 1960s and the 1970s would have happened?
How much support (financial and otherwise) would MU football have sucked out of the basketball program in the 1960s and 1970s?
We are pretty fortunate that MU hoops has worked out the way it has. MU was notoriously cheap with Al and perhaps with football sucking up resources he would have found greener pastures after a few years.
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Why do people assume that with football MU hoops of the late 1960s and the 1970s would have happened?
How much support (financial and otherwise) would MU football have sucked out of the basketball program in the 1960s and 1970s?
And sucked out of the rest of the University? Don't forget that after Title IX happened, Marquette would have had to come up with a crapload of schollies, coaches, and facilities for women's sports. Most of those other private schools you have mentioned have many more well-heeled donors than Marquette does. If we would not have been able to get our alums to pony up for the chick sports (and right now, our current scholarships aren't even fully funded), it would have come out of the University General Fund.
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It only became an issue in the mid-1990s when college football was a real revenue source. for 30 to 35 years it really did not matter.
But if we want to rehash this again ...
How many private Urban schools are good at D1 football. I count two "The U" (Miami) and USC ... Both had strong histories and are in the middle of football recruiting hotbeds. MU has neither.
Again, private Urban schools are not football powers. Please let this conversation end.
+1
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I arrived in 1961 the year after the end of the football program. The feeling at M.U. was basically, good riddance.
Football was basically viewed as a bunch of thugs who rampaged the nights before games.
I sensed no desire for any return of football. Some of us went to Evanston or Madison for our football fix. There was some talk of Division 3 football.
Intermural touch football was played at the old, small, (one half of a stadium) facility.
Let's get real, football was untenable for a host of reasons, good call at the time.
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No way we could have consistently competed in a Power 5 Conference.
The Big 3 private schools are Notre Dame, Stanford and Vanderbilt.
USC, Miami and BYU say hi.
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Where would there even have been any space for a football field? Especially now a days. We pt our investment into basketball, just like Northwestern put theirs into football, the plans for the new lakefront facility are nuts. Its not a good or bad thing, we just decided to invest in something different.
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we woulda been 100x's better keeping the med school than football.
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we woulda been 100x's better keeping the med school than football.
+ one million
If their was still a Marquette University Medical School and/or a Marquette University Hospital (or Hospital system) that would have done more for the reputation of the entire university than a football team.
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I feel the two major mistakes MU made was giving up the medical school and the football program.
At the time we gave up the football program it was in down cycle. However, the team was coming back up. The timing was extremely unfortunate, because TV was just coming into its own as a force in Sports in the early 60s and MU football would have benefited, financially and from the visibility. Marquette had good football visibility as it played at a major level and that benefits everyone.
My sense is with football we would have moved into the Missouri Valley Conference, where we would have still been strong in basketball and probably middle of the road in football with possibly a strong year every once in a while. Then we would have moved to the Metro Conference and followed the same path as Louisville into Conference USA and eventually the Big East.
Remember, when the Big Ten was deciding to replace the University of Chicago, Marquette was one of the schools in the running. The Big Ten eventually chose Michigan State which joined in 1953.
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we woulda been 100x's better keeping the med school than football.
First fookin', intelligent comment from you, kin, in da past decade, hey?
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I feel the two major mistakes MU made was giving up the medical school and the football program.
At the time we gave up the football program it was in down cycle. However, the team was coming back up. The timing was extremely unfortunate, because TV was just coming into its own as a force in Sports in the early 60s and MU football would have benefited, financially and from the visibility. Marquette had good football visibility as it played at a major level and that benefits everyone.
My sense is with football we would have moved into the Missouri Valley Conference, where we would have still been strong in basketball and probably middle of the road in football with possibly a strong year every once in a while. Then we would have moved to the Metro Conference and followed the same path as Louisville into Conference USA and eventually the Big East.
Even if all this came true, which is a BIG if, Marquette's best case scenario is that they would have ended up in the American, making less money than we currently do in the Big East...and we would have had to pay for football. There is no way your prediction happens without the basketball program suffering. I will take our basketball history over a theoretical history of being mediocre in both football and basketball.
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Wait? Marquette had a football team?
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Even if all this came true, which is a BIG if, Marquette's best case scenario is that they would have ended up in the American, making less money than we currently do in the Big East...and we would have had to pay for football. There is no way your prediction happens without the basketball program suffering. I will take our basketball history over a theoretical history of being mediocre in both football and basketball.
Yet in another thread you have been pounding the table that we need to take U Conn into the Big East. This way we would still have been together with them.Also, under this scenario above, the Big East may not have collapsed and instead may have been smart enough to take the $1.24 billion offer they received from ESPN which they greedily turned down. MU as an all sports member we would have been in fat cat city as a participant in that. Also Miller Park may have become a multi sport stadium with us as the Football tenant.
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Yet in another thread you have been pounding the table that we need to take U Conn into the Big East. This way we would still have been together with them.Also, under this scenario above, the Big East may not have collapsed and instead may have been smart enough to take the $1.24 billion offer they received from ESPN which they greedily turned down. MU as an all sports member we would have been in fat cat city as a participant in that. Also Miller Park may have become a multi sport stadium with us as the Football tenant.
Of course I want UConn in the Big East. They are a great basketball program. What does that have to do with this?
And no, the Big East would have still collapsed. Marquette having a crappy football team wouldn't have changed the fact that the B1G and SEC can take any school they want at any time.
Again, why would you trade our dominance of basketball under Al for a crappy mid major football team?
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Of course I want UConn in the Big East. They are a great basketball program. What does that have to do with this?
And no, the Big East would have still collapsed. Marquette having a crappy football team wouldn't have changed the fact that the B1G and SEC can take any school they want at any time.
Again, why would you trade our dominance of basketball under Al for a crappy mid major football team?
What makes you so sure that Marquette would have had a crappy football team? Listen, I think football at Marquette is the dumbest idea since those dumbass krauts decided to attach a people cabin to a balloon filled with hydrogen... but dumb is exactly what makes for an awesome football team. Look at Alabama... you know anyone who's graduated from Alabama? Don't feel bad, because neither do any Alabama alums. Want to get accepted to (the) Ohio State University? Simply show up on enrollment day with a GED from an Ohio prison and show them how well you can breathe.
You think JJ Watt would have gone to Wisconsin? He most assuredly wouldn't have even been accepted to Wisconsin because he would been playing for the Gridiron Warriors.
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Of course I want UConn in the Big East. They are a great basketball program. What does that have to do with this?
And no, the Big East would have still collapsed. Marquette having a crappy football team wouldn't have changed the fact that the B1G and SEC can take any school they want at any time.
Again, why would you trade our dominance of basketball under Al for a crappy mid major football team?
I think our Football team would have reached its earlier peak levels again. I believe it would have helped basketball and we would be in a better position today if we had football. I believe part of the reason Al was able to recruit, was because the football team had given Marquette visibility. Remember Part of the recruiting pitch , especially in those days pre AAU, was to the high school coaches, who were old enough to recognize Marquette as a major athletic school.
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I believe part of the reason Al was able to recruit, was because the football team had given Marquette visibility.
I think that's a bunch of hooey.
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I think that's a bunch of hooey.
You omitted the rest of the quote. Like I said, Marquette football gave us national recognition before we became a basketball power.
I believe if we kept football going we would be in a very strong position today.
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You omitted the rest of the quote. Like I said, Marquette football gave us national recognition before we became a basketball power.
I believe if we kept football going we would be in a very strong position today.
I think that's a bunch of hooey
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Would really like to see MU establish a non scholarship football program and play in the Pioneer Football League. The schools that are participating in that league are all having a positive experience with football.
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Would really like to see MU establish a non scholarship football program and play in the Pioneer Football League. The schools that are participating in that league are all having a positive experience with football.
Would be a complete waste of money and resources.
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Would be a complete waste of money and resources.
I believe it would create a ground swell of enthusiasm.
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Would really like to see MU establish a non scholarship football program and play in the Pioneer Football League. The schools that are participating in that league are all having a positive experience with football.
In NY Fordham plays Holy Cross, it's a big deal.
Villanova plays football as does Georgetown.
St. Lawrence plays Div. 1 hockey and Div. 3 football.
Football can be played for the love of the sport, everything does not have to come down to money.
Remember that AL liked being an independent, those were the days.
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In NY Fordham plays Holy Cross, it's a big deal.
Villanova plays football as does Georgetown.
St. Lawrence plays Div. 1 hockey and Div. 3 football.
Football can be played for the love of the sport, everything does not have to come down to money.
Remember that AL liked being an independent, those were the days.
Hey Vogue - glad you're OK, hope your friends/loved ones weren't hurt in the earthquake.
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I think our Football team would have reached its earlier peak levels again. I believe it would have helped basketball and we would be in a better position today if we had football. I believe part of the reason Al was able to recruit, was because the football team had given Marquette visibility. Remember Part of the recruiting pitch , especially in those days pre AAU, was to the high school coaches, who were old enough to recognize Marquette as a major athletic school.
I believe football was dropped 4 years before Al stepped through Marquette's doors.
I believe football had absolutely nothing to do with Al's success as a basketball coach.
I believe Al would say you are full of beans for this cockamamie belief of yours.
I believe you believe Kostas would have been the best wide receiver in Marquette football history.
I believe you don't actually believe about 2/3 of the stuff you write on Scoop. At least I hope you believe that.
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I believe it would create a ground swell of enthusiasm.
Average Pioneer League game attendance in 2015: 3,441
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I believe it would create a ground swell of enthusiasm.
I know it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars and that money would be taken away from much more valuable things. Our USWNR ranking would surely suffer!
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I know it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars and that money would be taken away from much more valuable things. Our USWNR ranking would surely suffer!
Do some research on Pioneer League football. It is not a hundred of millions of dollars proposition. There are no scholarships.
I think over time it would help our USWNR ranking.
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I think over time it would help our USWNR ranking.
How, exactly?
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Do some research on Pioneer League football. It is not a hundred of millions of dollars proposition. There are no scholarships.
I think over time it would help our USWNR ranking.
Facilities, coaches, support staff, administrators, security, conference fees, travel, etc all add up really quickly. Hundreds of millions was a purposeful exaggeration. It would cost millions. You would also need to spend money funding an additional women's sport. All for a team that no one would give two shats about and would make negative money.
D1 hockey would be a much better investment than a pioneer league football team.
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Facilities, coaches, support staff, administrators, security, conference fees, travel, etc all add up really quickly. Hundreds of millions was a purposeful exaggeration. It would cost millions. You would also need to spend money funding an additional women's sport. All for a team that no one would give two shats about and would make negative money.
D1 hockey would be a much better investment than a pioneer league football team.
All those Canadians would depress our USN&WR ranking though.
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This is a classic Scoop thread. As long as we are eyeing an alternate universe here is what would have happened if MU would have kept football.......In 1966, two years after joining the Big 1? along with ND, Pittsburgh, and PSU, MU establishes itself as "The Jesuit University" in the Big1? by beating both U of M and a fading power in OSU two years in a row to become the first Big1? team to go undefeated in conference play for two consecutive years. Bowl games, you guessed it, two straight blow out wins over USC (42-3 and 37-0) This would only the start of "The Jesuit University" dominance in college sports. TJU would go on to win top AP and UPI honors in football 21 times in in the next 50 years. TJU hoops would also flourish winning the NCAA 13 times in those 50 years(Al got 6, Majerus 3, Dukiet 1, Deane 2, O'Neil 2, Crean 0, Buzz 4, Wojo 2 in two years) Things are good academically too, reasearchers at "TJU" cure Cancer, AIDS, and the scourge known as badger fandom. Bang!
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Hey Vogue - glad you're OK, hope your friends/loved ones weren't hurt in the earthquake.
Thanks, our place is in the north, Italy has its issues with earthquakes and volcanos.
MIT and Johnson Hopkins have Div. 3 football. What schools do we consider our peers?
Buffalo and Idaho have Div. 1 football. Small schools like Quinnipac and Providence are very successful with Div 1 hockey.
Long past time to get out of the big time football mentality.
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TJU hoops would also flourish winning the NCAA 13 times in those 50 years(Al got 6, Majerus 3, Dukiet 1, Deane 2, O'Neil 2, Crean 0, Buzz 4, Wojo 2 in two years)
While I whole-heartedly embrace flights of fancy, the idea that Dukiet would have got 1 title to Crean's 0 is just too far in the realm of delusion. Surely Wade would have been joined by Lebron and Bosh in college rather than just the pros, and their friendship would have led to two titles before they left for the NBA together.
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While I whole-heartedly embrace flights of fancy, the idea that Dukiet would have got 1 title to Crean's 0 is just too far in the realm of delusion. Surely Wade would have been joined by Lebron and Bosh in college rather than just the pros, and their friendship would have led to two titles before they left for the NBA together.
Nah, he still would have gotten rolled by Kansas.
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This is a classic Scoop thread. As long as we are eyeing an alternate universe here is what would have happened if MU would have kept football.......In 1966, two years after joining the Big 1? along with ND, Pittsburgh, and PSU, MU establishes itself as "The Jesuit University" in the Big1? by beating both U of M and a fading power in OSU two years in a row to become the first Big1? team to go undefeated in conference play for two consecutive years. Bowl games, you guessed it, two straight blow out wins over USC (42-3 and 37-0) This would only the start of "The Jesuit University" dominance in college sports. TJU would go on to win top AP and UPI honors in football 21 times in in the next 50 years. TJU hoops would also flourish winning the NCAA 13 times in those 50 years(Al got 6, Majerus 3, Dukiet 1, Deane 2, O'Neil 2, Crean 0, Buzz 4, Wojo 2 in two years) Things are good academically too, reasearchers at "TJU" cure Cancer, AIDS, and the scourge known as badger fandom. Bang!
In this alternate universe "it's Indiana, it's Indiana" would have been interrupted by bouts of tearful blubbering
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#15 Houston AAC beating #3 Oklahoma great game on ABC. In the
Alternative Universe MU would be the double header football game against North Carolina at Miller Park.
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In the Alternative Universe MU would be the double header football game against North Carolina at Miller Park.
In front of 25,000...
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I think that's a bunch of hooey
+1
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Thanks, our place is in the north, Italy has its issues with earthquakes and volcanos.
MIT and Johnson Hopkins have Div. 3 football. What schools do we consider our peers?
Buffalo and Idaho have Div. 1 football. Small schools like Quinnipac and Providence are very successful with Div 1 hockey.
Long past time to get out of the big time football mentality.
Most definitely not MIT and Johns Hopkins. MU views their peer institutions as:
Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, Saint Louis, Holy Cross and Fordham.
Like most Universities, they include Universities in their "peers" that are more aspirational Universities, e.g. Notre Dame (don't shoot the messenger, but their endowment is over 15x larger than MU), Georgetown and BC.
If we want to be honest, swap those three out with Boston University, Southern Methodist and George Washington University.
Aspirational Universities are likely, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Vanderbilt, USC.
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Most definitely not MIT and Johns Hopkins. MU views their peer institutions as:
Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, Saint Louis, Holy Cross and Fordham.
Like most Universities, they include Universities in their "peers" that are more aspirational Universities, e.g. Notre Dame (don't shoot the messenger, but their endowment is over 15x larger than MU), Georgetown and BC.
If we want to be honest, swap those three out with Boston University, Southern Methodist and George Washington University.
Aspirational Universities are likely, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Emory, Vanderbilt, USC.
Not familiar with the term "Aspirational University", definition please?
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Not familiar with the term "Aspirational University", definition please?
Universities in their strategic plans usually define two groups of Universities:
Peer institutions are similar like minded institutions with similar goals and qualities.
Aspirational Universities are those universities that the "aspire" to become like as a result of the strategic plan.
Typically they spend a small fortune on outside consultants to evaluate their programs and those of aspirational institutions to develop a plan on how to achieve these goals.
The end result is the same. It takes investing money in education and research. They then promptly through out all those ideas and say we need to grow our endowment.
Peer/Aspirational/Consulting is a colossal waste of resources...but that is for a completely different topic. Just wanted to provide an answer to who MU considers its peers. Note, that of the peer institutions we have the smallest Endowment.
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Universities in their strategic plans usually define two groups of Universities:
Peer institutions are similar like minded institutions with similar goals and qualities.
Aspirational Universities are those universities that the "aspire" to become like as a result of the strategic plan.
Typically they spend a small fortune on outside consultants to evaluate their programs and those of aspirational institutions to develop a plan on how to achieve these goals.
The end result is the same. It takes investing money in education and research. They then promptly through out all those ideas and say we need to grow our endowment.
Peer/Aspirational/Consulting is a colossal waste of resources...but that is for a completely different topic. Just wanted to provide an answer to who MU considers its peers. Note, that of the peer institutions we have the smallest Endowment.
Thank you, you sound like you know what you are talking about.
I accumulated credits at George Washington and NYU and find Div. 1 football schools, for the most part, not to my liking. I think we have a lot of ND want-a-bees who have developed a love hate relationship with that particular institution, an obsession if you will.
The world has gone beyond national universities, now we have international universities and we need to broaden our perspective.
Put me in the camp that does not aspire to spend fall Saturdays tailgating at Div. 1 football games, hay, to each his/her own.
I like your short list of aspirational universities, I think that is a subject worth discussing.
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The only thing standing in the way of Marquette having a competitive Div. 3 football team is ego.
Oh, and the Packers, ND, and the Badgers.
In the early 60's it was discussed, but the discussion never went anywhere....now it is not even discussed.
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The only thing standing in the way of Marquette having a competitive Div. 3 football team is ego.
And NCAA rules. (No longer can you be D3 in football while the rest of the sports are in D1.)
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And NCAA rules. (No longer can you be D3 in football while the rest of the sports are in D1.)
Damn the NCAA, always trying to keep the man down.
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C'mon now ... could MU's defense have been any worse than Notre Dame's was last night?
It's always fun to watch my favorite college team* win.
(*Whoever is playing ND.)
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And NCAA rules. (No longer can you be D3 in football while the rest of the sports are in D1.)
That sounds logical, you can have one Division 1 team, like golf or hockey, but you can't have one Div. 3 team.
I wonder what each SCOOPER has against ND. My resentment goes back to Al who would not play them because of the $$ split when they wanted to come to Milwaukee. We would get a minor percent of the gate at home because they thought they were a big draw and in South Bend, we got to keep a larger percent of the gate which was mostly cheap student tickets.
That's just for openers.
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I wonder what each SCOOPER has against ND. My resentment goes back to Al who would not play them because of the $$ split when they wanted to come to Milwaukee. We would get a minor percent of the gate at home because they thought they were a big draw and in South Bend, we got to keep a larger percent of the gate which was mostly cheap student tickets.
That's just for openers.
They're ND, that's why!
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Universities in their strategic plans usually define two groups of Universities:
Peer institutions are similar like minded institutions with similar goals and qualities.
Aspirational Universities are those universities that the "aspire" to become like as a result of the strategic plan.
Typically they spend a small fortune on outside consultants to evaluate their programs and those of aspirational institutions to develop a plan on how to achieve these goals.
The end result is the same. It takes investing money in education and research. They then promptly through out all those ideas and say we need to grow our endowment.
Peer/Aspirational/Consulting is a colossal waste of resources...but that is for a completely different topic. Just wanted to provide an answer to who MU considers its peers. Note, that of the peer institutions we have the smallest Endowment.
40 some years later, Marquette University still regrets graduating 4ever, who has been a perpetual drag on the Endowment.
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And NCAA rules. (No longer can you be D3 in football while the rest of the sports are in D1.)
Villanova, among many universities, apparently complete in Division-1-AA.
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Villanova, among many universities, apparently complete in Division-1-AA.
Right. You can compete in FCS (new D1AA) as a non-scholarship school too. Butler does that. And starting this year the conference champion of the two non-scholarship conferences will get an auto invite to the FCS playoffs - and will promptly get smashed.
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Right. You can compete in FCS (new D1AA) as a non-scholarship school too. Butler does that. And starting this year the conference champion of the two non-scholarship conferences will get an auto invite to the FCS playoffs - and will promptly get smashed.
On the East Coast Div. 3 and Div. 1-AA are very popular and "delete" universities compete in them.
Back in the 1960's Al was very opposed to joining an all catholic basketball league and did everything he could to maintain our independent status. Now in the 21st century, by a very long and crooked path, we find ourselves in a nearly all catholic league.
Who knows what football will look like in 50 years?
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "delete" University?
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Its the French word for chitty, ai na?
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "delete" University?
I have a fat finger, and a tablet with its own mind and a mind which is slipping. Thanks for pointing out my limitations, I hope you got the point, oh well, what difference does it make?
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Honestly, I actually thought "delete" might be a portmanteau of "degenerate" and "elite" (or something thereabouts).
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I have a fat finger, and a tablet with its own mind and a mind which is slipping. Thanks for pointing out my limitations, I hope you got the point, oh well, what difference does it make?
How dare you talk to us plebes in that manner. You deletist.