MUScoop

A great read:

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/04/jae_crowders_bumpy_rise_how_bo.html (http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/04/jae_crowders_bumpy_rise_how_bo.html)

More Jae props, today's Boston globe.  Enjoy

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2016/04/14/jae-crowder-career-path-full-twists-and-turns/z2MPouBCzAiKIldzzO9enL/story.html?event=event12

And to think Pilarz and Larry ran off Buzz, by restricting his ability to continue to recruit guys like Jae, while raising our admission standard for athletes above the NCAA mandated minimums? 

Loved that Wojo recruited and landed Henry - yet he was always known as a one and done, maybe two and done - who was NEVER going to graduate from Marquette.  I suspect Wojo didn't so much as have to even ask if he could recruit Henry Ellenson.  So, it begs the question:  Why is it okay to recruit a one and done like Henry, but wrong to recruit a JUCO like Jae who was going to be challenged to graduate from MU due to his incoming credit load?

The climate around the program in Buzz's last couple of years was down right hypocritical, in light of what Marquette's Cura Personalis mission and Jesuit mission are.  MU lost the best thing that happened to it since Al McGuire, due to its "leadership."

Does anyone else miss players like Jae and Jimmy?  Ironically they are our two most successful and well known alums in the last 5 years.

Quote from: Taint on April 15, 2016, 03:34:55 PM
And to think Pilarz and Larry ran off Buzz, by restricting his ability to continue to recruit guys like Jae, while raising our admission standard for athletes above the NCAA mandated minimums? 

Loved that Wojo recruited and landed Henry - yet he was always known as a one and done, maybe two and done - who was NEVER going to graduate from Marquette.  I suspect Wojo didn't so much as have to even ask if he could recruit Henry Ellenson.  So, it begs the question:  Why is it okay to recruit a one and done like Henry, but wrong to recruit a JUCO like Jae who was going to be challenged to graduate from MU due to his incoming credit load?

The climate around the program in Buzz's last couple of years was down right hypocritical, in light of what Marquette's Cura Personalis mission and Jesuit mission are.  MU lost the best thing that happened to it since Al McGuire, due to its "leadership."

Does anyone else miss players like Jae and Jimmy?  Ironically they are our two most successful and well known alums in the last 5 years.

Bazz was here longer than either of those 2...

Good story though Ners.

Well that escalated quickly...

Quote from: wadesworld on April 15, 2016, 03:37:04 PM
Bazz was here longer than either of those 2...

Good story though Ners.

Good point.  One more year under Wild and Cords, with the same recruiting restrictions in place.  Perhaps you fail to understand that once a relationship is significantly "tainted" and you see the A.D., who hired you get fired, then you have to fire one of your best friends, Scott Monarch, then have to be suspended for 1 game, then read in your local paperwork from your new A.D., of 90-days how you tie your tie too tight, and that your head is going to explode - guess what - all of the damage is done.  MU Admin sold Buzz down the river and he largely reciprocated in turn his last year here.

By the way, aren't you the guy who predicted an Elite 8 or Sweet 16 for last year's team in your preseason prediction?  #trusttheprocess

Quote from: Taint on April 15, 2016, 03:56:16 PM
Good point.  One more year under Wild and Cords, with the same recruiting restrictions in place.  Perhaps you fail to understand that once a relationship is significantly "tainted" and you see the A.D., who hired you get fired, then you have to fire one of your best friends, Scott Monarch, then have to be suspended for 1 game, then read in your local paperwork from your new A.D., of 90-days how you tie your tie too tight, and that your head is going to explode - guess what - all of the damage is done.  MU Admin sold Buzz down the river and he largely reciprocated in turn his last year here.

By the way, aren't you the guy who predicted an Elite 8 or Sweet 16 for last year's team in your preseason prediction?  #trusttheprocess

You seem like you're wound a little tight.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/GJycRLp6zYGFq/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Taint on April 15, 2016, 03:34:55 PM
And to think Pilarz and Larry ran off Buzz, by restricting his ability to continue to recruit guys like Jae, while raising our admission standard for athletes above the NCAA mandated minimums? 

Loved that Wojo recruited and landed Henry - yet he was always known as a one and done, maybe two and done - who was NEVER going to graduate from Marquette.  I suspect Wojo didn't so much as have to even ask if he could recruit Henry Ellenson.  So, it begs the question:  Why is it okay to recruit a one and done like Henry, but wrong to recruit a JUCO like Jae who was going to be challenged to graduate from MU due to his incoming credit load?

The climate around the program in Buzz's last couple of years was down right hypocritical, in light of what Marquette's Cura Personalis mission and Jesuit mission are.  MU lost the best thing that happened to it since Al McGuire, due to its "leadership."

Does anyone else miss players like Jae and Jimmy?  Ironically they are our two most successful and well known alums in the last 5 years.

Yeah, Ners, but I think the question everybody is asking now is:

Derrick or Dawson?

Great stuff guys, thanks for sharing.

Great articles. In-depth, well-written and thoughtful. Thanks for posting. And glad to see that good sports journalism still exists.

It was the later JUCOs that caused the problems. Can't remember their names but the sexual assaults, fights and underage drinking was the culprit. Plus buzz is a complete fraud.

Of course I'm the wrong person to ask, I don't care if they're illiterate. Just put the ball in the hoop and don't do dumb sh*t. These guys do a ton for the university. I think I remember reading that applications doubled after the final four run. Get them some tutors and let them play ball. Sort of like badger football.

There wasn't 'underage drinking'.   There was being in a bar underage but not drinking.  DJO was in an altercation at the bar where no underage drinking occurred.  Vander punched a kid who may or may not have made an ethnic slur.  There were two reports of sexual assault, neither of which led to charges, possibly due to poor handling by the university.    Jae was the last of the JUCO's, and due to his academic history (detailed in the above articles), as well as a change in administration, the rules for admission to MU became tougher than the NCAA's.

Quote from: tower912 on April 16, 2016, 07:14:32 AM
ethnic slur

Vander Orange is an ethnic slur now?

It wasn't the admission of Jucos that was a problem.  It was the admission of non-qualifying Jucos who had no shot of graduating from MU in two years mostly because it lacks a Phy Ed major.  (Which oftentimes is the major of choice for Jucos.)  Marquette's transfer policy does not accept Phy Ed credits.

Anyone who thinks that the souring of the relationship was entirely the administration's fault, or entirely Buzz's fault, isn't thinking clearly.

And how much longer are we going to debate this?

SP, LW and Buzz.  All of them are gone.  Lovell, Scholl and Wojo are here and all will undoubtedly be here for awhile.  I mean I get that people like NersTaint are obsessive about it and just can't let it go, but really what point does it serve?

We will find out soon enough how good a coach Wojo is.  Anybody who can declare either way for certain at this point is simply making a prediction based on incomplete evidence.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 16, 2016, 08:23:51 AM
And how much longer are we going to debate this?

Ad infinitum, whenever a discussion is triggered by an article like this or by a MU coach trying to get a borderline JUCO admitted (which won't be happening under Wojo).

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 16, 2016, 08:01:17 AM
It wasn't the admission of Jucos that was a problem.  It was the admission of non-qualifying Jucos who had no shot of graduating from MU in two years mostly because it lacks a Phy Ed major.  (Which oftentimes is the major of choice for Jucos.)  Marquette's transfer policy does not accept Phy Ed credits.

Anyone who thinks that the souring of the relationship was entirely the administration's fault, or entirely Buzz's fault, isn't thinking clearly.

Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AM
Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

LOL. Ners, you haven't changed one bit 

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AM
Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

And to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

P.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

Ners, most of your posts have the ##it factor.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AM
Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

The big difference of course is that as long as he finishes out the semester, he doesn't hurt our APR like Jae did. 

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AMP.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it."

That ranks up there with your "eye test" evaluations. 

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AM
Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

There is a big difference between admitting a player who could graduate but will choose not to like Henry and admitting a player who couldn't graduate no matter how hard he tried like Jae.

Its tough because I love Jae as a player and a person. But I agree with the administration's stance. The college degree is the one real tangible payment that college athletes get for all they do for their universities. You take a student who isn't ready academically to benefit from that payment and the university is taking advantage of a kid for his athletic ability.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AM
Did Henry Ellenson have ANY shot of graduating from MU?

Yes, absolutely. In fact, he still does. As long as he's in good academic standing and on track to graduate is the key here. I absolutely love Jae. One of my favorite players here ever. But I understand the administration's stance on wanting players to be on track to graduate, especially as we've seen teams missing the NCAAs due to APR penalties.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AMAnd to be clear, I'm glad Wojo got Henry, and consider it his best accomplishment thus far as a coach.  I just feel there is a disconnect when we will admit a one and one, no questions asked - but not a JUCO that will be challenged to graduate.

Because it's an apples and oranges comparison. Quite simply, staying on track to graduate and never being on track to graduate. One will have no adverse affect on your program, one could.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 09:33:28 AMP.S.:  There is enough evidence, as is the case frequently, when you can evaluate performance, talent, and the "it" factor as it relates to a cocah - Wojo doesn't have "it." NOT a good coach at this point.  Has a long way to go.  His recruiting will/should give him a chance to get us relatively* consistent NCAA appearances, yet that will be the ceiling IMO.

I bet Duke fans were saying the exact same thing when they were trying to run K out his first few years. I know it's unfair to compare anyone to K, but there are plenty of coaches that didn't win immediately and eventually were able to win big. Wojo's recruiting has been good enough that he deserves a chance to prove himself with these players as upperclassmen.

If he can't get to the tourney in the next few years as his guys become juniors and seniors, then it will be time to start considering other options. If he does and starts winning, then maybe he could be one of the greats. But considering he inherited a dumpster fire and turned it into a 20-win team in year two (however questionable some of those were) I'd say there's at least reason to acknowledge legitimate progress.

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 16, 2016, 11:05:16 AM
Yes, absolutely. In fact, he still does. As long as he's in good academic standing and on track to graduate is the key here. I absolutely love Jae. One of my favorite players here ever. But I understand the administration's stance on wanting players to be on track to graduate, especially as we've seen teams missing the NCAAs due to APR penalties.

Because it's an apples and oranges comparison. Quite simply, staying on track to graduate and never being on track to graduate. One will have no adverse affect on your program, one could.

I bet Duke fans were saying the exact same thing when they were trying to run K out his first few years. I know it's unfair to compare anyone to K, but there are plenty of coaches that didn't win immediately and eventually were able to win big. Wojo's recruiting has been good enough that he deserves a chance to prove himself with these players as upperclassmen.

If he can't get to the tourney in the next few years as his guys become juniors and seniors, then it will be time to start considering other options. If he does and starts winning, then maybe he could be one of the greats. But considering he inherited a dumpster fire and turned it into a 20-win team in year two (however questionable some of those were) I'd say there's at least reason to acknowledge legitimate progress.

This seems to be a little obtuse.  I guess I don't understand - Henry can come back but Jae can't?  Does Jae Crowder no longer stand a chance to graduate from Marquette?  Jae can't come back for classes (if for some reason he would want to after likely earning over $75-$100M in his NBA career) and pursue an MU degree - as could Henry?

As for Wojo, I disagree that he inherited a dumpster fire. You can look to the 2-16 ACC Va Tech team Buzz inherited and see what a dumpster fire looks like.  Wojo oddly invested in one-year eligibility guys - Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson -  his first year on the job, when he had 3 very talented underclassmen sitting on the bench - yet started freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of those talented 3.  That in turn led to us losing two of the thre, being less experienced this year, and once again missing the NIT with a roster of 7, Top 100 players.

Sure, we can say the jury is out on Wojo as a coach - that's fair.  Yet, if you were to take Buzz's first two years at MU and Wojo's - who gave you greater belief that he'd get the job done?  I know personally, I felt MUCH more confident in Buzz. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 16, 2016, 09:52:16 AM
The big difference of course is that as long as he finishes out the semester, he doesn't hurt our APR like Jae did.


That ranks up there with your "eye test" evaluations.

This is not the plan from what I've read.  Leaving for L.A. to begin workouts/draft prep.

I think there is a kernel of truth to what Ners is arguing in that the current system values something that is superior in theory but does not hold up in practice (the end effect of Henry may be the same as Jae - or Lazar for that matter).

I personally think the system should evolve to having a pathway for these kids to chase their dream and come back to finish on the schools dime. it would seem like an equitable trade for the benefits the kids bring to the institutions. 

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 11:23:18 AMAs for Wojo, I disagree that he inherited a dumpster fire. You can look to the 2-16 ACC Va Tech team Buzz inherited and see what a dumpster fire looks like.  Wojo oddly invested in one-year eligibility guys - Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson -  his first year on the job, when he had 3 very talented underclassmen sitting on the bench - yet started freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of those talented 3.  That in turn led to us losing two of the thre, being less experienced this year, and once again missing the NIT with a roster of 7, Top 100 players.

Sure, we can say the jury is out on Wojo as a coach - that's fair.  Yet, if you were to take Buzz's first two years at MU and Wojo's - who gave you greater belief that he'd get the job done?  I know personally, I felt MUCH more confident in Buzz.

What's the intent of posts like this?

Yes, Buzz Williams accomplished some great things at Marquette. Yes, Wojo has yet to do the same. So what?

Buzz ain't coming back. If that's your hope, or you're pining for past glory, I think you need a reality check. His Elite Eight run was amazing, but Wojo is our coach now and for the foreseeable future. I don't care any more about Buzz than 350 other head coaches not at Marquette.

If your goal is to establish that Buzz is a better coach than Wojo — assuming that's even possible — again, what's the point? You just need to be right? Or do you have something against Wojo as our coach? Because he's doing a way better job right now than the guy who quit on Marquette.

I get skepticism. Walk the walk, show me, prove it. If you won't be convinced that Wojo is a good coach until he makes the Elite Eight like Buzz did, so be it. That's your prerogative. But where skepticism challenges and questions, you've outright stated that Wojo isn't a good coach. Statements like this suggest a deliberate attempt to tear down the current program.

I can't think of any other explanation for your obsessive need to constantly criticize a second-year head coach — one who played and worked for college basketball's winningest coach, one with an impeccable resume (short of NCAA tourney experience), and one who's brought in some of the best talent in the history of the program.

EDIT: Screw it. Marcus said it perfectly. Better to just move on than try to relive conversations that should have died 18 months ago.

Quote from: Marcus92 on April 16, 2016, 12:29:06 PM
What's the intent of posts like this?

Yes, Buzz Williams accomplished some great things at Marquette. Yes, Wojo has yet to do the same. So what?

Buzz ain't coming back. If that's your hope, or you're pining for past glory, I think you need a reality check. His Elite Eight run was amazing, but Wojo is our coach now and for the foreseeable future. I don't care any more about Buzz than 350 other head coaches not at Marquette.

If your goal is to establish that Buzz is a better coach than Wojo — assuming that's even possible — again, what's the point? You just need to be right? Or do you have something against Wojo as our coach? Because he's doing a way better job right now than the guy who quit on Marquette.

I get skepticism. Walk the walk, show me, prove it. If you won't be convinced that Wojo is a good coach until he makes the Elite Eight like Buzz did, so be it. That's your prerogative. But where skepticism challenges and questions, you've outright stated that Wojo isn't a good coach. Statements like this suggest a deliberate attempt to tear down the current program.

I can't think of any other explanation for your obsessive need to constantly criticize a second-year head coach — one who played and worked for college basketball's winningest coach, one with an impeccable resume (short of NCAA tourney experience), and one who's brought in some of the best talent in the history of the program.

You mad bro?

The point of the post is to be objective about the reality of our program currently.  When someone says Wojo inherited a dumpster fire, that is at best debatable, yet I'd argue simply false.

As for objective criticism of our coach, its borne out of a desire that MU be a winning basketball program.

I'm actually blown away by the level of rationalization I read from some here trying to justify the performance thus far.

Recruiting = A
Coaching and Personnel Management:  C- (at best)

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 16, 2016, 01:12:08 PM
EDIT: Screw it. Marcus said it perfectly. Better to just move on than try to relive conversations that should have died 18 months ago.

The conversation of Wojo's coaching performance is such that we now have 18 more months and 2 seasons of data.  Why should discussing the performance thus far die?

I honestly don't get the "who's the better coach" fixation on this board (Crean vs. Williams vs. Wojo).

Any coach who's followed Al McGuire at Marquette pales in comparison. Measured against his standard for success, we haven't had a good coach in 40 years.

The broader world of sports fandom is defined by similar "who's better" arguments (Wilt vs. Russell, Favre vs. Rodgers, Babe Ruth vs. every power hitter since, Jordan vs. Lebron). It's generally a pointless but occasionally fun and pretty harmless exercise.

Here, it often feels like such arguments come with an agenda and are wielded as weapons. One of my least favorite aspects about MUScoop.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
You mad bro?

The point of the post is to be objective about the reality of our program currently.  When someone says Wojo inherited a dumpster fire, that is at best debatable, yet I'd argue simply false.

As for objective criticism of our coach, its borne out of a desire that MU be a winning basketball program.

I'm actually blown away by the level of rationalization I read from some here trying to justify the performance thus far.

Recruiting = A
Coaching and Personnel Management:  C- (at best)

The conversation of Wojo's coaching performance is such that we now have 18 more months and 2 seasons of data.  Why should discussing the performance thus far die?

Not mad at all. You've answered my questions. You're a skeptic. You believe that your skepticism gives you an objective viewpoint, and your role as an objective critic is important to being a fan — and the future success of Marquette basketball.

To me, what you see as objective evaluation or criticism can come across as undermining our current coach and the program. To say that Wojo isn't a good coach implies that Marquette never should have hired him in the first place, or that he doesn't even deserve to remain in his position.

I might argue that there's an inherent conflict between being a critic and a fan, but it's an argument I don't really care about. I think I've said enough.

O/U 48 more hours remaining in Taint's Scoop life?

Quote from: MuEagle1090 on April 16, 2016, 02:11:28 PM
O/U 48 more hours remaining in Taint's Scoop life?

A Rose by any other name........

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 01:33:37 PMThe conversation of Wojo's coaching performance is such that we now have 18 more months and 2 seasons of data.  Why should discussing the performance thus far die?

That's not the conversation you're trying to have. You're trying to have a Buzz vs Wojo penis measuring contest. We might as well debate Derrick vs Dawson.

Quote from: Marcus92 on April 16, 2016, 02:06:46 PM
Not mad at all. You've answered my questions. You're a skeptic. You believe that your skepticism gives you an objective viewpoint, and your role as an objective critic is important to being a fan — and the future success of Marquette basketball.

To me, what you see as objective evaluation or criticism can come across as undermining our current coach and the program. To say that Wojo isn't a good coach implies that Marquette never should have hired him in the first place, or that he doesn't even deserve to remain in his position.

I might argue that there's an inherent conflict between being a critic and a fan, but it's an argument I don't really care about. I think I've said enough.

Good post Marcus.

But be clear:  I haven't said MU should have never hired Wojo, nor have I posted MU should fire Wojo.  Nor do I believe Wojo should be fired..AT ALL.  I think he should get at 2 more years - but if we aren't in the NCAA at the end of the 2018 season - really think at that time MU would need to move on. He, along with Stan Johnson, are doing a hell of a job recruiting - and that is the first step required to be a successful coach.

I've simply been disappointed in the in game coaching, as well as how he's handle the minute allocation the last couple of years.  Hopefully Wojo improves in those areas. 

Just to change the direction a bit:

Taint:

Who was your favorite  MU player last year?
     
  and

Who do you think will help the most next year?

             Thanks.

Darn Scoop is Ners Tainted again   :-\

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 03:01:31 PM
Good post Marcus.

But be clear:  I haven't said MU should have never hired Wojo, nor have I posted MU should fire Wojo.  Nor do I believe Wojo should be fired..AT ALL.  I think he should get at 2 more years - but if we aren't in the NCAA at the end of the 2018 season - really think at that time MU would need to move on. He, along with Stan Johnson, are doing a hell of a job recruiting - and that is the first step required to be a successful coach.

I've simply been disappointed in the in game coaching, as well as how he's handle the minute allocation the last couple of years.  Hopefully Wojo improves in those areas.

No disagreement here. We didn't hire Wojo for 7th place finishes. Everybody on this board wants and expects us to compete for Big East titles and extended NCAA runs. Just don't see any worth in comparing him to a past coach under a different administration with different players.

Can't judge coaches 'til 5 seasons passes, ai na?

So...nice Jae Crowder article  :-\

Quote from: Marcus92 on April 16, 2016, 12:29:06 PM
What's the intent of posts like this?

It's Ners being Ners, constantly bitching and moaning and recycling the same arguments a million times.  Nothing ever dies with him.  Every single thread ends up with spewing the same old tired sh*t, no matter what the thread is actually about.

This place is far, far better when he is banned.

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 16, 2016, 07:05:09 PM
So...nice Jae Crowder article  :-\

Was a great article on Jae.  He's a great representative for MU, just as is Jimmy Butler.  Just a damn shame that Marquette admin decided it is "above" admitting a kid like Jae.  Hopefully, Lovell gets that reversed.  Lovell definitely seems to be all in on the basketball program which is encouraging.  There is no reason to handcuff our coach unnecessarily as did the BOT/Pilarz - particularly not when you are not a P5 school, AND you are located in Milwaukee - both of which present some inherent challenges in the recruiting game.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 11:23:18 AM
This seems to be a little obtuse.  I guess I don't understand - Henry can come back but Jae can't?  Does Jae Crowder no longer stand a chance to graduate from Marquette?  Jae can't come back for classes (if for some reason he would want to after likely earning over $75-$100M in his NBA career) and pursue an MU degree - as could Henry?

As for Wojo, I disagree that he inherited a dumpster fire. You can look to the 2-16 ACC Va Tech team Buzz inherited and see what a dumpster fire looks like.  Wojo oddly invested in one-year eligibility guys - Matt Carlino, Derrick Wilson and Juan Anderson -  his first year on the job, when he had 3 very talented underclassmen sitting on the bench - yet started freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of those talented 3.  That in turn led to us losing two of the thre, being less experienced this year, and once again missing the NIT with a roster of 7, Top 100 players.

Sure, we can say the jury is out on Wojo as a coach - that's fair.  Yet, if you were to take Buzz's first two years at MU and Wojo's - who gave you greater belief that he'd get the job done?  I know personally, I felt MUCH more confident in Buzz.

No matter how hard I try to read your posts with an open mind, the only conclusion that I come to is that you still have no idea when a comma is necessary and when it is not.  Or when - whatever is meant by - these sym-bols - is necessary.  It's kind - of - like trying to read - a post - by Dodds.

Quote from: Loose Cannon on April 16, 2016, 03:30:56 PM

Just to change the direction a bit:

Taint:

Who was your favorite  MU player last year?
     
  and

Who do you think will help the most next year?

             Thanks.

Favorite player:  Tossup between Traci and JJJ.  Both were underutilized last season IMO.

Who will help most next year?  Tough question.  If we land a grad transfer PF, that would be what the team needs most.  If we don't - I'd go with Reinhardt - a proven contributor at a high major program with respectable Usage and eFG%.  Howard is a great prospect, yet because I am bullish on Traci Carter - not sure I see Howard as the PG of choice.  Think Duane Wilson has his work cutout for him as I see both Howard and Rowsey primarily playing off the ball where Duane is also at his best.

Having said all of this, I really don't see the logic in bringing Reinhardt into the fold when you have JJJ and Cheatham who SHOULD eat major guard minutes.  Then again, given how short of leash Wojo has had with JJJ - it is possible Reinhardt could eat into JJJ's minutes - which would be a total and complete shame.  When you consider Sandy Cohen played more minutes last season than JJJ - it isn't beyond the realm of possibility to think Wojo once again will inexplicably allocate playing time to guys other than his best players - just as he's done in each of his first two years as coach.

Quote from: wadesworld on April 16, 2016, 11:41:19 PM
No matter how hard I try to read your posts with an open mind, the only conclusion that I come to is that you still have no idea when a comma is necessary and when it is not.  Or when - whatever is meant by - these sym-bols - is necessary.  It's kind - of - like trying to read - a post - by Dodds.

Thanks Wades.  Grammar is not my strong point.  Sorry.  I'm much better being predictive with regard to MU basketball as it relates to the talent/lack thereof of both our players and coaches.

Quote from: wadesworld on April 16, 2016, 11:41:19 PM
No matter how hard I try to read your posts with an open mind, the only conclusion that I come to is that you still have no idea when a comma is necessary and when it is not.  Or when - whatever is meant by - these sym-bols - is necessary.  It's kind - of - like trying to read - a post - by Dodds.

hey, easy on my new bff.  now taint, i need to work with you on when/when not to capitalize ;D


   on another note, i'm sure MU will have a very short memory when jae's and jimmy's checks to the blue n gold fund start rollin' in Heyn'er?  i agree with the post re: graduation potential(taint?) so HE is brought in knowing he is probably a 1 or 2 and done, while jae, jimmy, et.al. are given the academic procto exam. please please don't even think about the "R" card.  all of these guys will and or can graduate if they choose to come back and do the time.  note, davidson will not retire steph's jersey unless he comes back and graduates, which is maintaining an excellent standard and not setting a precedent, regardless of who you are

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 16, 2016, 10:38:13 AM
The college degree is the one real tangible payment that college athletes get for all they do for their universities. You take a student who isn't ready academically to benefit from that payment and the university is taking advantage of a kid for his athletic ability.

What the hell are you talking about. I know for a fact that Sam Worthen and Oliver Lee both said that sharing a room at McCormick and having access to Chez Saga three times a day was payment enough for their services.

Quote from: Taint on April 16, 2016, 11:44:02 PM
Favorite player:  Tossup between Traci and JJJ.  Both were underutilized last season IMO.

Who will help most next year?  Tough question.  If we land a grad transfer PF, that would be what the team needs most.  If we don't - I'd go with Reinhardt - a proven contributor at a high major program with respectable Usage and eFG%.  Howard is a great prospect, yet because I am bullish on Traci Carter - not sure I see Howard as the PG of choice.  Think Duane Wilson has his work cutout for him as I see both Howard and Rowsey primarily playing off the ball where Duane is also at his best.

Having said all of this, I really don't see the logic in bringing Reinhardt into the fold when you have JJJ and Cheatham who SHOULD eat major guard minutes.  Then again, given how short of leash Wojo has had with JJJ - it is possible Reinhardt could eat into JJJ's minutes - which would be a total and complete shame.  When you consider Sandy Cohen played more minutes last season than JJJ - it isn't beyond the realm of possibility to think Wojo once again will inexplicably allocate playing time to guys other thn his best players - just as he's done in each of his first two years as coach.

I like Traci at the point too, I have seen glimpses of his leadership, and his shooting skill I think will not be a problem (He seem very good at the line at crunch time).  I think his major improvement must come from his decision  making, (Especially looking to pass much more quickly) once that happens the other things fall in place.

Regarding Katlin, if I understand you, its a good recruiting move because Wojo does not  see that giving JJ and HC more minutes at the guard position would have make it unnecessary.  Reviewing the MU official stats  HC had 29.5 and JJ had 23.7 (of note Sandy had 23.3). What increase to these numbers would you consider?

Also are you surprised how things have played out for JJ and that he is still at MU today?

Quote from: Loose Cannon on April 17, 2016, 11:40:22 AM

I like Traci at the point too, I have seen glimpses of his leadership, and his shooting skill I think will not be a problem (He seem very good at the line at crunch time).  I think his major improvement must come from his decision  making, (Especially looking to pass much more quickly) once that happens the other things fall in place.

Regarding Katlin, if I understand you, its a good recruiting move because Wojo does not  see that giving JJ and HC more minutes at the guard position would have make it unnecessary.  Reviewing the MU official stats  HC had 29.5 and JJ had 23.7 (of note Sandy had 23.3). What increase to these numbers would you consider?

Also are you surprised how things have played out for JJ and that he is still at MU today?

Traci will go down as a VERY good MU point guard when all is said and done.  Felt he was our toughest player last year - a junkyard dog who plays incredibly hard.  Assist rate is off the charts.  High steal rate.  Turnovers will reduce, yet I personally don't mind turnovers committed out of aggression.  I too am not worried about Traci's shooting.  He'll be fine.  Felt Traci should have played 30+ last season.  Same for JJJ.

Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 12:12:32 PM
Traci will gone down as a VERY good MU point guard when all is said and done.  Felt he was our toughest player last year - a junkyard dog who plays incredibly hard.  Assist rate is off the charts.  High steal rate.  Turnovers will reduce, yet I personally don't mind turnovers committed out of aggression.  I too am not worried about Traci's shooting.  He'll be fine.  Felt Traci should have played 30+ last season.  Same for JJJ.

Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

Thanks

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 12:12:32 PM
Traci will gone down as a VERY good MU point guard when all is said and done.  Felt he was our toughest player last year - a junkyard dog who plays incredibly hard.  Assist rate is off the charts.  High steal rate.  Turnovers will reduce, yet I personally don't mind turnovers committed out of aggression.  I too am not worried about Traci's shooting.  He'll be fine.  Felt Traci should have played 30+ last season.  Same for JJJ.

Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

I agree with this analysis.

Quote from: Marquette Fan In NY on April 17, 2016, 03:16:30 PM
I agree with this analysis.

Shocking.

Quote from: MuEagle1090 on April 17, 2016, 03:23:21 PM
Shocking.

This just in, Ners and MU fan in NY are the same person.

Loose Cannon & Taint - totally agree on Carter. He's got the goods.

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 12:12:32 PM
Reinhardt?  Not sure I understand your statement.  My view is that he can contribute, yet that he wasn't at a position of need - AT ALL - assuming JJJ is staying.

JJJ and Reinhardt don't play the same position AT ALL. If anyone's playing time is hurt by Reinhardt, it's Sandy's

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 12:12:32 PM
Regarding JJJ:  Yes, I am still surprised he is at MU.  Think he's a real talent.  I feel Wojo's had far too short of leash on JJJ.  However, I will say that to Wojo's credit it did appear that JJJ was playing harder on both ends the last 1/4 of the year which I'd have to believe was borne out of JJJ's frustration with his playing time - which Wojo helped create.  That aside, I think somehow you have to figure out how to reach a player, other than just benching him during games - when the player is clearly one of your best players and most dynamic playmaker.

Classic, it's like you never left.  And your comments about TC playing 30+ last year sets you up to complain about Wojo if Howard is a shockingly mature 17 yr old, Rowsey earns more minutes than you deem worthy, or TC has an off 2 week stretch as 19yr olds are apt to have. 

I like the transition from DeezNuts to Taint because it means you are following an anatomical path to the ultimate honest user name of A$$hole in your next on-line life.  I'm puzzled by N'ers though because i don't know what it references, care to share any insight?

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on April 17, 2016, 04:54:02 PM
JJJ and Reinhardt don't play the same position AT ALL. If anyone's playing time is hurt by Reinhardt, it's Sandy's

This would be a good thing.  Hope you are right.  Perhaps we can start 3 wings who all like to dominate the ball - Haanif, JJJ and Reinhardt - yet I wonder if there will be enough shots to go around in that lineup? 

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 05:25:53 PM
This would be a good thing.  Hope you are right.  Perhaps we can start 3 wings who all like to dominate the ball - Haanif, JJJ and Reinhardt - yet I wonder if there will be enough shots to go around in that lineup?

If players are worried about that, they are not good teammates and I hope wojo it's able to coach that out of them

Quote from: naginiF on April 17, 2016, 05:14:04 PM
Classic, it's like you never left.  And your comments about TC playing 30+ last year sets you up to complain about Wojo if Howard is a shockingly mature 17 yr old, Rowsey earns more minutes than you deem worthy, or TC has an off 2 week stretch as 19yr olds are apt to have. 

I like the transition from DeezNuts to Taint because it means you are following an anatomical path to the ultimate honest user name of A$$hole in your next on-line life.  I'm puzzled by N'ers though because i don't know what it references, care to share any insight?

Let's talk basketball. Last year it was evident to MOST that the team played much better with Carter running the point, and that Cheatham was best off the ball.  Yet, repeatedly, Wojo continued to try to make Cheatham the PG.  Why?  How can it be that Sandy Cohen and JJJ played the same amount of minutes for the year - and Duane Wilson roughly 20% minutes than JJJ?

Can't win if you don't arrange your available talent in its best form.  Next year?  If Howard and or Rowsey show they are better than Carter - I have NO problem with Wojo playing either one of them ahead of Carter.  But considering we saw Wojo start both Juan Anderson and freshman Sandy Cohen ahead of Deonte Burton?  Well.  I wish I had more confidence in how Wojo uses his roster.

But hey - How dare anyone question Wojo or question "the process."  95% of this board predicted NIT or better for last year's team - and we didn't even sniff the NCAA much less make the NIT.  That in and of itself should warrant some scrutiny of the job turned in thus far.

And btw - Sincerely, sorry if my opinions make me an a$$hole in your world.  This is a message board - it shouldn't arouse anger by virtue of someone voicing a different opinion than your own.

Ners, no one has ever said that Wojo shouldn't be questioned.  You are just very absolute on your opinions while others give more leeway to the guy running the program.

Carter for instance by and large was the best PG option.  However there were times in games were he got a little loose and Cheatham was a better option because he turned the ball over less.  JJJ was very good toward the end of the year, but was still struggling with playing both ends.  Glad that Wojo finally got through to him.

Quote from: keefe on April 17, 2016, 11:33:48 AM
What the hell are you talking about. I know for a fact that Sam Worthen and Oliver Lee both said that sharing a room at McCormick and having access to Chez Saga three times a day was payment enough for their services.

So they thought that going to class on top of all that was just being greedy?  That would explain some things.

This whole "Sandy vs Jajuan minutes argument" is just ridiculous. Looking at the balance of the season is pointless.

Early on, Sandy was earning minutes with great defense. After Jajuan sat for 'Nova, he turned it around. Played better defense and found his shot. And with Jajuan turning it around (whole Sandy concurrently declined) the minutes reflected it.

Look at their minutes the last 16 games. Jajuan played starter minutes, 28.4 mpg while Sandy played just 16.1 mpg.

So, tell me again how Wojo is giving Sandy equal minutes...

Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on April 17, 2016, 03:37:28 PM
This just in, Ners and MU fan in NY are the same person.

No, the old unholy pair of Ners and Texas Western.  No matter how many times they are banned they just keep coming back.

  you guys are all caught up in dividing up playing times and rightly so, but one can never have enough solid contributors-i.e. a good problem to have.  a good coach, as i think wojo will become.  he now has his own recruits in his system. he should be able to get these guys playing off each other in a good competitive team way. reading one of those articles on jae, the thing that stood out for buzz when he was recruiting him,  he had his worst game?  so what did jae do?  did he mope and pout on the bench?  nope-he became the teams biggest fan-that's what we need from all of the guys, playing or not.   

   but back to the point i wanted to make-some of these projected playing times may all go for chit because of all the variables.  it's a long, physical season ripe for injuries, team issues, academics, family issues, etc.  really looking forward to this season.  this should be fun(i hope)

Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 17, 2016, 08:04:31 PM
  you guys are all caught up in dividing up playing times and rightly so, but one can never have enough solid contributors-i.e. a good problem to have.  a good coach, as i think wojo will become.  he now has his own recruits in his system. he should be able to get these guys playing off each other in a good competitive team way. reading one of those articles on jae, the thing that stood out for buzz when he was recruiting him,  he had his worst game?  so what did jae do?  did he mope and pout on the bench?  nope-he became the teams biggest fan-that's what we need from all of the guys, playing or not.   

   but back to the point i wanted to make-some of these projected playing times may all go for chit because of all the variables.  it's a long, physical season ripe for injuries, team issues, academics, family issues, etc.  really looking forward to this season.  this should be fun(i hope)

I agree with this. 

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 05:46:15 PM
sorry if my opinions make me an a$$hole

I mean, you were DeezNuts, now Taint, so that would be the next step, ai'na?

;)

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 17, 2016, 07:05:45 PM
This whole "Sandy vs Jajuan minutes argument" is just ridiculous. Looking at the balance of the season is pointless.

Early on, Sandy was earning minutes with great defense. After Jajuan sat for 'Nova, he turned it around. Played better defense and found his shot. And with Jajuan turning it around (whole Sandy concurrently declined) the minutes reflected it.

Look at their minutes the last 16 games. Jajuan played starter minutes, 28.4 mpg while Sandy played just 16.1 mpg.

So, tell me again how Wojo is giving Sandy equal minutes...

maybe i'm missed this discussion, but didn't sandy's drop in playing time also coincide with being suspended for a game for a "team" thingy?

Quote from: MUfan12 on April 17, 2016, 08:25:27 PM
I mean, you were DeezNuts, now Taint, so that would be the next step, ai'na?

;)

and i did point out an anatomical progression.  I think N'ers is interpreting my not understanding what 'N'ers' is as being angry and just didn't understand the anatomical progression.

Also, i completely agree with Rocket's last 2 posts - that's what i get for straying off the politics board ;D

Quote from: rocket surgeon on April 17, 2016, 08:04:31 PM
  you guys are all caught up in dividing up playing times and rightly so, but one can never have enough solid contributors-i.e. a good problem to have.  a good coach, as i think wojo will become.  he now has his own recruits in his system. he should be able to get these guys playing off each other in a good competitive team way. reading one of those articles on jae, the thing that stood out for buzz when he was recruiting him,  he had his worst game?  so what did jae do?  did he mope and pout on the bench?  nope-he became the teams biggest fan-that's what we need from all of the guys, playing or not.   

   but back to the point i wanted to make-some of these projected playing times may all go for chit because of all the variables.  it's a long, physical season ripe for injuries, team issues, academics, family issues, etc.  really looking forward to this season.  this should be fun(i hope)

Good post.

Quote from: MUfan12 on April 17, 2016, 08:25:27 PM
I mean, you were DeezNuts, now Taint, so that would be the next step, ai'na?

;)

Good point

Quote from: naginiF on April 17, 2016, 09:10:18 PM
and i did point out an anatomical progression.  I think N'ers is interpreting my not understanding what 'N'ers' is as being angry and just didn't understand the anatomical progression.

Also, i completely agree with Rocket's last 2 posts - that's what i get for straying off the politics board ;D

Nag - I did understand the anatomical progression, and applaud you on a clever and well conceived post.  Just wanted to clarify, however, that because I happen to be skeptcial of Wojo THUS FAR - doesn't make me an a$$hole.   8-) 

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 17, 2016, 07:05:45 PM
This whole "Sandy vs Jajuan minutes argument" is just ridiculous. Looking at the balance of the season is pointless.

Early on, Sandy was earning minutes with great defense. After Jajuan sat for 'Nova, he turned it around. Played better defense and found his shot. And with Jajuan turning it around (whole Sandy concurrently declined) the minutes reflected it.

Look at their minutes the last 16 games. Jajuan played starter minutes, 28.4 mpg while Sandy played just 16.1 mpg.

So, tell me again how Wojo is giving Sandy equal minutes...

Well, I happen to see the game against Butler on March 5th where we got destroyed by Butler and JJJ got 20 minutes and Sandy got 30.  Never mind, of course, that JJJ had an O-Rating of 149 in that game and had 9 points on 3 of 4 shooting.

Furthermore, JJJ broke 30 minutes exactly 8 out of 16 games after the Villanova game you reference. 

A CONSISTENT lineup of Traci, JJJ, Haanif, Henry and Luke would have done very good things last season.  Yanking guys in and out of the lineup on a consistent basis - Traci and JJJ - hurt the team's performance tremendously last year, again, IMO. 

Best teams and coaches develop a solid 8-9 man rotation with generally consistent substitution patterns - and rarely have emotionally reactive substitutions.

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 10:56:18 PM
Well, I happen to see the game against Butler on March 5th where we got destroyed by Butler and JJJ got 20 minutes and Sandy got 30.  Never mind, of course, that JJJ had an O-Rating of 149 in that game and had 9 points on 3 of 4 shooting.

Was that the only game you watched after Valentine's Day? Picking the statistical outlier and trying to use it as proof of an overarching point is foolish.

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 10:56:18 PMFurthermore, JJJ broke 30 minutes exactly 8 out of 16 games after the Villanova game you reference.

He did...which is more times than any Marquette player other than Henry or Haanif. What's your point?

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 10:56:18 PMA CONSISTENT lineup of Traci, JJJ, Haanif, Henry and Luke would have done very good things last season.  Yanking guys in and out of the lineup on a consistent basis - Traci and JJJ - hurt the team's performance tremendously last year, again, IMO.

Those were the five most frequent guys on the court by season's end. What more were we going to do? We were a middle of the road team in the league. You think those guys getting 35+ mpg would have somehow changed that?

Quote from: Taint on April 17, 2016, 10:56:18 PMBest teams and coaches develop a solid 8-9 man rotation with generally consistent substitution patterns - and rarely have emotionally reactive substitutions.

Which is what we had. Our rotation was Luke, Henry, Jajuan, Haanif, Traci, and Duane all getting starting level minutes, with Cohen, Wally, and Matt contributing varying amounts off the bench.

You really seem to be making some big argumentative talking point out of an issue that doesn't exist. If it did, wouldn't JJ have transferred one of the 734 times you tried to play that card?

Quote from: naginiF on April 17, 2016, 05:14:04 PMI'm puzzled by N'ers though because i don't know what it references, care to share any insight?

It was supposed to be BoNers, but he hated Wisconsin's coach so much he shortened it to Ners.

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 18, 2016, 07:15:44 AM
Was that the only game you watched after Valentine's Day? Picking the statistical outlier and trying to use it as proof of an overarching point is foolish.

He did...which is more times than any Marquette player other than Henry or Haanif. What's your point?

Those were the five most frequent guys on the court by season's end. What more were we going to do? We were a middle of the road team in the league. You think those guys getting 35+ mpg would have somehow changed that?

Which is what we had. Our rotation was Luke, Henry, Jajuan, Haanif, Traci, and Duane all getting starting level minutes, with Cohen, Wally, and Matt contributing varying amounts off the bench.

You really seem to be making some big argumentative talking point out of an issue that doesn't exist. If it did, wouldn't JJ have transferred one of the 734 times you tried to play that card?

The issue did exist.  My point is there was NO reason JJJ shouldn't have been playing 30 minutes per game ALL year.  No reason he shouldn't have been playing 30 in all 16 of the games we were discussing. We can also look to the Creighton game at home where we lost by 3 and Wojo had JJJ on the bench for basically the whole 2nd half.  He played 17 minutes in that game.  Cohen played 20.

Just because Wojo primarily played 8-9 guys does NOT mean he had a clearly defined rotation.  He didn't.  We had various starting lineups.  Mass substitution, with no consistent pattern.  And RARELY did the lineup of Carter, Cheatham, JJJ, Henry and Luke get to play together for LONG stretches of play.  By my research, that lineup was started only 2 times all year. 

It is nearly impossible to get any kind of consistent performance out of a team when there is virtually NO consistency to the lineup and rotation, and frequent substitution. 

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 10:49:01 AM
Just because Wojo primarily played 8-9 guys does NOT mean he had a clearly defined rotation.  He didn't.  We had various starting lineups.  Mass substitution, with no consistent pattern.  And RARELY did the lineup of Carter, Cheatham, JJJ, Henry and Luke get to play together for LONG stretches of play.  By my research, that lineup was started only 2 times all year. 

The bolded is absolutely not true.  Rotations changed at times, but it was quite consistent from about the time conference play started.  Adjustments were made in the second half based on performance, foul trouble, etc.  But by and large the same starting five were the same starting five.

I do not recall many instances of mass substitution either.

No team is going to have the same starting five, with the same players subbing in and out and the same exact times all season. 

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 18, 2016, 10:54:39 AM

The bolded is absolutely not true.  Rotations changed at times, but it was quite consistent from about the time conference play started.  Adjustments were made in the second half based on performance, foul trouble, etc.  But by and large the same starting five were the same starting five.

I do not recall many instances of mass substitution either.

No team is going to have the same starting five, with the same players subbing in and out and the same exact times all season.

I disagree  Our starting lineup (and lineup) was all over the place last season.  A quick review of Ken Pom's Top 20 teams, and their Most Frequent Lineups over the Past 5 Games statistic reveals the Most Frequent Lineup combination was used ~27% of the time.  Marquette?  10.9%  And, JJJ was not in that lineup - it comprised:  Traci, Duane, Haanif, Henry and Luke.

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 11:05:43 AM
I disagree  Our starting lineup (and lineup) was all over the place last season.  A quick review of Ken Pom's Top 20 teams, and their Most Frequent Lineups over the Past 5 Games statistic reveals the Most Frequent Lineup combination was used ~27% of the time.  Marquette?  10.9%  And, JJJ was not in that lineup - it comprised:  Traci, Duane, Haanif, Henry and Luke.

Past 5 games?  For Marquette that included two blowout losses.  That is going to screw with playing time decisions consistently.

For most top 20 teams that includes tournaments.  They are going to be much more consistent in those games.

Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on April 18, 2016, 11:11:40 AM
Past 5 games?  For Marquette that included two blowout losses.  That is going to screw with playing time decisions consistently.

For most top 20 teams that includes tournaments.  They are going to be much more consistent in those games.

If Pomeroy had season long data in this statistic, I'd share it, and feel it would be quite similar.  Furthermore, I don't feel once a Top 20 teams gets to the NCAA it all of a sudden drastically alters its approach to a more consistent and cohesive lineup.

My over-arching point is this:  Our best lineup combination was Traci, Haanif, JJJ, Henry and Luke.  That lineup was started exactly 2 times all year - in our 30th and 31st game. 

Will be quite interesting to see how Wojo manages the lineup this upcoming season as we have a ton of guards - can see the paradox of choice creating further lineup disarray.

This is ridiculous. You're trying to create issues that don't exist. Your ability to posit a rational argument seems to be getting worse as you progress toward the backside of the anatomy.

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 10:49:01 AM
The issue did exist.  My point is there was NO reason JJJ shouldn't have been playing 30 minutes per game ALL year.  No reason he shouldn't have been playing 30 in all 16 of the games we were discussing. We can also look to the Creighton game at home where we lost by 3 and Wojo had JJJ on the bench for basically the whole 2nd half.  He played 17 minutes in that game.  Cohen played 20.

Just because Wojo primarily played 8-9 guys does NOT mean he had a clearly defined rotation.  He didn't.  We had various starting lineups.  Mass substitution, with no consistent pattern.  And RARELY did the lineup of Carter, Cheatham, JJJ, Henry and Luke get to play together for LONG stretches of play.  By my research, that lineup was started only 2 times all year. 

It is nearly impossible to get any kind of consistent performance out of a team when there is virtually NO consistency to the lineup and rotation, and frequent substitution.

I'm glad you brought this game up.  It continues to be beyond hilarious to me that you try to tear apart Wojo's coaching ability at every chance you can when you then go and hold opinions like this.  I was at the Creighton game at home and it was ABUNDANTLY clear that the gameplay was to GET BACK ON DEFENSE whether it was off of a made basket or a rebound or live ball turnover.  The coaching staff had clearly seen plenty of Creighton film and knew that their offense relied on beating the defense down the court and not allowing the defense to set up.  After just about every made basket that entire game Wojo, Stan, and Nelson were all jumping off the bench SCREAMING for everyone to run back.  If I paid attention to Heldt and Mache on the bench I would be willing to be that they were doing the same, as it was clear that everyone should have been well aware what their job was to do first and foremost defensively: SPRINT BACK!

There were 3 straight possessions where JJJ made a layup and lollygagged back, leading to Creighton beating us down the floor and hitting a wide open corner 3, JaJuan chucked up a bad 3 pointer and held the hand up watching it while his man got a run out layup, and then JJJ tried to drive through all 5 defenders, threw up a wild shot at the backboard, and when he knew it had no chances of going in flopped to the ground and just laid there while Creighton hit another wide open 3 to go from down 6 to up 2.  Wojo went to the bench, and absolutely deservedly so.  If you can't follow a game plan then find the pine.  And even if the game plan had nothing to do with transition D (which it clearly did), if you're going to lay on the ground begging for a call after you went completely out of control, you can find the pine.

You think Wojo can't coach, but then when your new favorite guy doesn't follow what the coach had in his game plan you scream and cry about why your favorite player isn't allowed to just do whatever he wants on the court and get 40 mpg.  You just don't understand the game.

Quote from: wadesworld on April 18, 2016, 03:22:50 PM
I'm glad you brought this game up.  It continues to be beyond hilarious to me that you try to tear apart Wojo's coaching ability at every chance you can when you then go and hold opinions like this.  I was at the Creighton game at home and it was ABUNDANTLY clear that the gameplay was to GET BACK ON DEFENSE whether it was off of a made basket or a rebound or live ball turnover.  The coaching staff had clearly seen plenty of Creighton film and knew that their offense relied on beating the defense down the court and not allowing the defense to set up.  After just about every made basket that entire game Wojo, Stan, and Nelson were all jumping off the bench SCREAMING for everyone to run back.  If I paid attention to Heldt and Mache on the bench I would be willing to be that they were doing the same, as it was clear that everyone should have been well aware what their job was to do first and foremost defensively: SPRINT BACK!

There were 3 straight possessions where JJJ made a layup and lollygagged back, leading to Creighton beating us down the floor and hitting a wide open corner 3, JaJuan chucked up a bad 3 pointer and held the hand up watching it while his man got a run out layup, and then JJJ tried to drive through all 5 defenders, threw up a wild shot at the backboard, and when he knew it had no chances of going in flopped to the ground and just laid there while Creighton hit another wide open 3 to go from down 6 to up 2.  Wojo went to the bench, and absolutely deservedly so.  If you can't follow a game plan then find the pine.  And even if the game plan had nothing to do with transition D (which it clearly did), if you're going to lay on the ground begging for a call after you went completely out of control, you can find the pine.

You think Wojo can't coach, but then when your new favorite guy doesn't follow what the coach had in his game plan you scream and cry about why your favorite player isn't allowed to just do whatever he wants on the court and get 40 mpg.  You just don't understand the game.

I watched the game too.  Saw the plays you referenced.  The weren't as egregious as you make them out to be.  I've seen Duane Wilson jack up countless ill-advised 3's, particularly with respect to time and situation, and no consequence - as well as frequently and feebly "attack" the rim.  Hell I can't imagine JJJ ever getting the leash to go 1-9 from the 3, and continue to be able to fire at will and play 30+ minutes every game - as we saw Duane go 1-8, 1-6, 2-9, 3-9 and 0-4 his first 5 games this season.

I know you are a HUGE Wojo fan - HUGE - which is great.  Considering you predicted the team this past season would make the Elite 8/Sweet 16, where do you place blame for the team so drastically under-performing your expectations?  #trusttheprocess, right Wades?

As for your comment about not understanding the game...that's rich.  Just rich. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on April 18, 2016, 01:53:59 PM
This is ridiculous. You're trying to create issues that don't exist. Your ability to posit a rational argument seems to be getting worse as you progress toward the backside of the anatomy.

I would expect a better rebuttal than this from you Brew.  As I pointed out, JJJ didn't hit 30 minutes in 8 of the 16 games from the Nova game you mentioned.  He was played 20% less than Duane Wilson.  There is NOTHING on the basketball floor Duane Wilson does better than JJJ.  Nothing.  And Sandy Cohen to get equal PT to JJJ?  Come on Man.

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 04:03:28 PM
I watched the game too.  Saw the plays you referenced.  The weren't as egregious as you make them out to be.  I've seen Duane Wilson jack up countless ill-advised 3's, particularly with respect to time and situation, and no consequence - as well as frequently and feebly "attack" the rim.  Hell I can't imagine JJJ ever getting the leash to go 1-9 from the 3, and continue to be able to fire at will and play 30+ minutes every game - as we saw Duane go 1-8, 1-6, 2-9, 3-9 and 0-4 his first 5 games this season.

I know you are a HUGE Wojo fan - HUGE - which is great.  Considering you predicted the team this past season would make the Elite 8/Sweet 16, where do you place blame for the team so drastically under-performing your expectations?  #trusttheprocess, right Wades?

As for your comment about not understanding the game...that's rich.  Just rich.

Letting your guy beat you down the court off of a made basket is inexcusable under any circumstance.  Standing around and watching your shot (a miss) is inexcusable under any circumstance.  If you're going to get beat on a run out it better have been because you were crashing the offensive glass, not because you were admiring a miss.  Getting frustrated because your coach is yelling at you for not following the game plan for 2 straight possessions and trying to force the action as a result is what you do as a 3rd grader when the game isn't going your way, not as a junior in college.  Laying on the floor because you didn't get a phantom foul call out of your flop after forcing said action is inexcusable.  Find the pine kid.

Jack up bad 3s with regard to time and situation and not have any consequences because, well, the next stoppage in play with those plays were the buzzer to end the game.  I'm pretty confident Wojo addressed those situations with Duane after that game.

Duane was not very good, but I saw him get pulled plenty of times after a series of poor plays, just as JJJ did.  Despite your wanting to believe that Wojo has some vendetta out against JJJ, he really doesn't.  His methods clearly worked, as JJJ played a much more complete game towards the end of the season, and was rewarded with extended minutes.  Wojo will give a player the minutes...if he earns those minutes.  JJJ was solid to very good on one side of the court all year.  He was very bad on the other side of the court early in the season, and drastically improved towards the end of the season.  He finally bought in.

Blame?  I guess I'd blame it on myself for thinking that starting 3 freshman when only 1 of the freshman was a 1 and done talent could perform from day 1.  Youth and inexperience led to a need for a weak out of conference schedule, which allowed for very little room for error, and when you're so young you need some room for error.  I thought Traci would be slightly better than he was (and I'm very happy we have Traci and excited for his future).  I thought Duane would be this team's 2nd best player, and he was nowhere near it.  I thought Luke would be able to stay on the floor a lot more than he was able to.  And you got your phrase wrong.  Stick to the process.

Well, looks like I need a Scoop break for a few days. Someone call me when Ners is banned again.

Quote from: MuEagle1090 on April 18, 2016, 04:15:01 PM
Well, looks like I need a Scoop break for a few days. Someone call me when Ners is banned again.

Probably a good idea.  Don't know why I got sucked in.

Quote from: wadesworld on April 18, 2016, 04:12:40 PM
Letting your guy beat you down the court off of a made basket is inexcusable under any circumstance.  Standing around and watching your shot (a miss) is inexcusable under any circumstance.  If you're going to get beat on a run out it better have been because you were crashing the offensive glass, not because you were admiring a miss.  Getting frustrated because your coach is yelling at you for not following the game plan for 2 straight possessions and trying to force the action as a result is what you do as a 3rd grader when the game isn't going your way, not as a junior in college.  Laying on the floor because you didn't get a phantom foul call out of your flop after forcing said action is inexcusable.  Find the pine kid.

Jack up bad 3s with regard to time and situation and not have any consequences because, well, the next stoppage in play with those plays were the buzzer to end the game.  I'm pretty confident Wojo addressed those situations with Duane after that game.

Duane was not very good, but I saw him get pulled plenty of times after a series of poor plays, just as JJJ did.  Despite your wanting to believe that Wojo has some vendetta out against JJJ, he really doesn't.  His methods clearly worked, as JJJ played a much more complete game towards the end of the season, and was rewarded with extended minutes.  Wojo will give a player the minutes...if he earns those minutes.  JJJ was solid to very good on one side of the court all year.  He was very bad on the other side of the court early in the season, and drastically improved towards the end of the season.  He finally bought in.

Blame?  I guess I'd blame it on myself for thinking that starting 3 freshman when only 1 of the freshman was a 1 and done talent could perform from day 1.  Youth and inexperience led to a need for a weak out of conference schedule, which allowed for very little room for error, and when you're so young you need some room for error.  I thought Traci would be slightly better than he was (and I'm very happy we have Traci and excited for his future).  I thought Duane would be this team's 2nd best player, and he was nowhere near it.  I thought Luke would be able to stay on the floor a lot more than he was able to.  And you got your phrase wrong.  Stick to the process.

Look - JJJ played practically perfectly the last 10 games of the season - to where Wojo couldn't pull him off the floor. JJJ just didn't all of a sudden become a good player the last 10.  He finally played SO well Wojo couldn't take him out.  You need consistent minutes to perform.  The standard JJJ was held to was MUCH higher than that of Cheatham, Cohen, Duane.   

How about this one Wades:  At Xavier, JJJ had a wide open baseline drive and dribbled the ball off his his foot.  Something that would happen maybe 1 in 200 attempts.  What happens?  Immediate Horn, JJJ to the bench.  That is NOT good coaching..AT ALL.

The fact you and some* others cannot see and identify the double standard JJJ was held to, and had a much shorter leash says all that needs to be said about your knowledge of basketball.

Hit the pine kid?  Are you serious?  JJJ was easily our 2nd best and most talented player last year, with Cheatham a close third.  You don't win, when you only play your 2nd best player 57% of all minutes in a season.

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 05:21:15 PM
Look - JJJ played practically perfectly the last 10 games of the season - to where Wojo couldn't pull him off the floor. JJJ just didn't all of a sudden become a good player the last 10.  He finally played SO well Wojo couldn't take him out.  You need consistent minutes to perform.  The standard JJJ was held to was MUCH higher than that of Cheatham, Cohen, Duane.   

How about this one Wades:  At Xavier, JJJ had a wide open baseline drive and dribbled the ball off his his foot.  Something that would happen maybe 1 in 200 attempts.  What happens?  Immediate Horn, JJJ to the bench.  That is NOT good coaching..AT ALL.

The fact you and some* others cannot see and identify the double standard JJJ was held to, and had a much shorter leash says all that needs to be said about your knowledge of basketball.

Hit the pine kid?  Are you serious?  JJJ was easily our 2nd best and most talented player last year, with Cheatham a close third.  You don't win, when you only play your 2nd best player 57% of all minutes in a season.

You're right Ners. Every season Bazz and Wojo just pick one of the most talented guys and decides to eff with them and play favorites, putting their career at risk.

Good talk Ners. You obviously know a lot about basketball.

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 05:21:15 PM
Look - JJJ played practically perfectly the last 10 games of the season - to where Wojo couldn't pull him off the floor. JJJ just didn't all of a sudden become a good player the last 10.  He finally played SO well Wojo couldn't take him out.  You need consistent minutes to perform.  The standard JJJ was held to was MUCH higher than that of Cheatham, Cohen, Duane.   

How about this one Wades:  At Xavier, JJJ had a wide open baseline drive and dribbled the ball off his his foot.  Something that would happen maybe 1 in 200 attempts.  What happens?  Immediate Horn, JJJ to the bench.  That is NOT good coaching..AT ALL.

The fact you and some* others cannot see and identify the double standard JJJ was held to, and had a much shorter leash says all that needs to be said about your knowledge of basketball.

Hit the pine kid?  Are you serious?  JJJ was easily our 2nd best and most talented player last year, with Cheatham a close third.  You don't win, when you only play your 2nd best player 57% of all minutes in a season.

This is either bad memory or a downright lie. I remember the play in question. Wojo looked at JJ, put his hands up at him as if to say "slow down a bit", and that was the end of it. No sub. He stayed in the game.

Why oh why oh why is Ners back and ruining threads like he never left/was banned in the first place?

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
I would expect a better rebuttal than this from you Brew.  As I pointed out, JJJ didn't hit 30 minutes in 8 of the 16 games from the Nova game you mentioned.  He was played 20% less than Duane Wilson.  There is NOTHING on the basketball floor Duane Wilson does better than JJJ.  Nothing.  And Sandy Cohen to get equal PT to JJJ?  Come on Man.

There's nothing to rebut. He averaged 28.4 mpg and only two players played 30+ more times. You're trying to turn nothing into something.

Meanwhile, Sandy was averaging 16 mpg. So when you say you think Sandy should have played less and Jajuan more, that's exactly what happened. For some reason, you got exactly what you wanted and you're still complaining about it.

I don't know why you are so obsessed with complaining about minutes ago season long, but when what you're arguing for something that already happened, I just don't understand your bitch.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2016, 06:17:23 PM
Why oh why oh why is Ners back and ruining threads like he never left/was banned in the first place?

Here's the thing guys.  It's not Ners.  IT'S YOU. He can come into any thread and spew any bullcrap he wants, but the threads only go downhill when you insist on responding and arguing with him. "Ignore" doesn't have to be a button, it can also be a state of mind. 

Perhaps we should simply institute a Ners Board, where those of you intent on beating a dead horse with a new name can go to respond to his asinine and intentionally provocative comments.

That was a great article on Jae. It's so great to see his success, and he's a real credit to Marquette's program.

BOOM! Back on topic.

Quote from: MomofMUltiples on April 18, 2016, 07:46:28 PM
Here's the thing guys.  It's not Ners.  IT'S YOU. He can come into any thread and spew any bullcrap he wants, but the threads only go downhill when you insist on responding and arguing with him. "Ignore" doesn't have to be a button, it can also be a state of mind. 

You are 100% correct here. Argumentative people do what they can to create arguments.

Quote from: Taint on April 18, 2016, 04:08:39 PM
I would expect a better rebuttal than this from you Brew.  As I pointed out, JJJ didn't hit 30 minutes in 8 of the 16 games from the Nova game you mentioned.  He was played 20% less than Duane Wilson.  There is NOTHING on the basketball floor Duane Wilson does better than JJJ.  Nothing.  And Sandy Cohen to get equal PT to JJJ?  Come on Man.

Um...I learned from ners last season that 25 minutes was all that was required for a player to get into a groove. Your just getting greedy with those extra 5 minutes.

Quote from: MomofMUltiples on April 18, 2016, 07:46:28 PM
Here's the thing guys.  It's not Ners.  IT'S YOU. He can come into any thread and spew any bullcrap he wants, but the threads only go downhill when you insist on responding and arguing with him. "Ignore" doesn't have to be a button, it can also be a state of mind. 

Perhaps we should simply institute a Ners Board, where those of you intent on beating a dead horse with a new name can go to respond to his asinine and intentionally provocative comments.

That was a great article on Jae. It's so great to see his success, and he's a real credit to Marquette's program.

BOOM! Back on topic.

Ha!  True enough, although I learned my lesson a long time ago.  Now I'm just annoyed reading it.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 18, 2016, 06:17:23 PM
Why oh why oh why is Ners back and ruining threads like he never left/was banned in the first place?

I don't understand it either.  He comes in and spews the same endless arguments in every single thread, making the boards unreadable.  This is what he was banned for in the first place.

Quote from: TSmith34 on April 18, 2016, 10:00:47 PM
I don't understand it either.  He comes in and spews the same endless arguments in every single thread, making the boards unreadable.  This is what he was banned for in the first place.

Sorry guys - it wasn't really an "allowed" thing.  I was traveling this weekend, catching up on work today, and just got to the moderation reports.  He's muted again.

Very much appreciated Rocky. 

Quote from: TSmith34 on April 19, 2016, 06:39:52 AM
Very much appreciated Rocky.

Ditto.

Quote from: TSmith34 on April 19, 2016, 06:39:52 AM
Very much appreciated Rocky.

+1

Thanks.

I don't mind contrarian points of view, but the dude is just so darn argumentative.  And utterly obsessed with arguing arguments from years past.

I saw a VW Bug with a DEEZ-NUTZ German/Euro plate on the front this morning, was that you Taint?

Well done, Rock.

I appreciate what Wocky did, but Mom does have a point.

Ners is a great contributor to this board. He has great insight and while carrying on too long sometimes, he is passionate about what he's talking about. I don't see what's wrong with having him being able to contribute on this board. He has a well earned reputation and I don't dispute that. However, maybe he has learned his lesson and toned it down. There are many more arrogant, smug jerks on this board who offend me much more than Ners.

I don't disagree with mom, but not everybody will heed her advice, and Moderator sanity is a state of mind too :)

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on April 19, 2016, 01:20:51 PM
maybe he has learned his lesson and toned it down.

This thread essentially proved he hasn't.  His first couple posts back I might have accepted, but after 20+ posts in a couple days, he was clearly continuing on the same path he always has.

This thread essentially proved he hasn't.  His first couple posts back I might have accepted, but after 20+ posts in a couple days, he was clearly continuing on the same path he always has.
[/quote]

I just think there's a double standard when it comes to him. If someone came on the board and posted what he did but it wasn't Ners, it wouldn't have been an issue. Obviously he brought a lot of this on himself so now he's paying the price. No biggie just throwing my opinion out there.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on April 19, 2016, 01:20:51 PM
However, maybe he has learned his lesson and toned it down.

Did you read the first 4 pages of this thread? It is clear he hasn't.

This board is better without him. I just caught up on this thread and I now have a headache.

Plus, who gets banned from a board and then comes back with multiple screen names like DeezNuts and Taint? Find a hobby.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on April 19, 2016, 01:44:00 PM

This thread essentially proved he hasn't.  His first couple posts back I might have accepted, but after 20+ posts in a couple days, he was clearly continuing on the same path he always has.


I just think there's a double standard when it comes to him. If someone came on the board and posted what he did but it wasn't Ners, it wouldn't have been an issue. Obviously he brought a lot of this on himself so now he's paying the price. No biggie just throwing my opinion out there.

LOL...    just my opinion.

Quote from: MomofMUltiples on April 18, 2016, 07:46:28 PM
Here's the thing guys.  It's not Ners.  IT'S YOU. He can come into any thread and spew any bullcrap he wants, but the threads only go downhill when you insist on responding and arguing with him. "Ignore" doesn't have to be a button, it can also be a state of mind. 

Perhaps we should simply institute a Ners Board, where those of you intent on beating a dead horse with a new name can go to respond to his asinine and intentionally provocative comments.

That was a great article on Jae. It's so great to see his success, and he's a real credit to Marquette's program.

BOOM! Back on topic.

well done!  it's just another point of view.  and you guys think the politics board is tough??   ::)