UConn gets a postseason ban, then wins the title. Syracuse self bans four years of violations, then the NCAA rewards them (literally) by ignoring their worst losses to give them an undeserved bid and Final Four. Figure Louisville and SMU are virtual locks to meet in the Championship game next year.
So how about it, Wojo? Pay players, hire hookers, fake classes, and make sure we get busted for it. We'll be back to the Final Four in no time!
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2016, 08:10:49 PM
UConn gets a postseason ban, then wins the title. Syracuse self bans four years of violations, then the NCAA rewards them (literally) by ignoring their worst losses to give them an undeserved bid and Final Four. Figure Louisville and SMU are virtual locks to meet in the Championship game next year.
So how about it, Wojo? Pay players, hire hookers, fake classes, and make sure we get busted for it. We'll be back to the Final Four in no time!
We should have hired Ben Howland
We should have hired Kelvin Sampson.
It is hard to argue that Syracuse got an undeserved bid when they made the final four.
Quote from: bilsu on March 27, 2016, 08:50:16 PM
It is hard to argue that Syracuse got an undeserved bid when they made the final four.
Not based upon its season. That's how you get a bid.
Quote from: bilsu on March 27, 2016, 08:50:16 PM
It is hard to argue that Syracuse got an undeserved bid when they made the final four.
No it's not. Their resume wasn't worthy of a bid. How they did after getting the bid doesn't retroactively make it more or less deserved.
We should've kept Buzz
Sorry, couldn't resist
Quote from: naginiF on March 27, 2016, 09:13:14 PM
We should've kept Buzz
Sorry, couldn't resist
Should have kept Kevin O'Neill
Puh-lease. We should be going after Bo Ryan.
True dat on Syracuse.
And don't forget that North Carolina cheated like hell for more than a decade, funneling athletes into make-believe courses. All the while, Roy Williams kept sayin', "Dadgumit, I have no idear how that doggone dilly of a thang ever happened!"
I can't be too hard on UNC, though, as they did take out both Indiana and ND.
Louisville is sitting out this tournament and more punishment likely coming.
UNC is going to get nailed. They are in the final throngs before that comes down.
UCONN, we will see how they do longer term, but they are in a status of limbo.
I know you were joking around, but eventually the piper has to be paid, just like USC football got clobbered out here. Sure, they had their run, and got some hardware, but they had to pay a healthy penalty as a result.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:27:54 PM
Louisville is sitting out this tournament and more punishment likely coming.
UNC is going to get nailed. They are in the final throngs before that comes down.
UCONN, we will see how they do longer term, but they are in a status of limbo.
I know you were joking around, but eventually the piper has to be paid, just like USC football got clobbered out here. Sure, they had their run, and got some hardware, but they had to pay a healthy penalty as a result.
Hope you're right about UNC.
There has to be some serious consequences both for UNC and the department that fostered the deception
Quote from: bilsu on March 27, 2016, 08:50:16 PM
It is hard to argue that Syracuse got an undeserved bid when they made the final four.
It really isn't. The NCAA suspended Jim Boeheim for 9 games including losses to Georgetown and St. John's, their two worst RPI losses of the year. The Orange went 4-5 in that span. But when it came to determining their place in the tournament, the NCAA determined that their OWN suspension should not be counted against Syracuse.
Not only did the suspension levied by the NCAA not hurt the Orange, it actually HELPED them because 38.5% of their losses were wiped out including their two worst losses. The wins in that span were all home cupcake wins over Colgate, Cornell, Texas Southern, and Montana State.
What other team got to discount the worst 9-game stretch of their season, their two worse losses, and over a third of their losses when it came to determining inclusion in the tournament? No one. So Syracuse cheated and the NCAA's decision was to reward them for that. Absolutely inexplicable, despicable, and only enforces that cheating is an action to be lauded, praised, and rewarded by the pathetic institution that is the NCAA.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 27, 2016, 10:28:56 PM
Hope you're right about UNC.
They have 5 Tier 1 allegations against them. That's as bad as it gets. I know people love to make conspiratorial comments like they are in the NCAA tournament because of the money. Sounds nice, but it's silly. The NCAA gets their money from Turner and CBS whether UNC, Duke, etc are in the tournament. It is guaranteed, ratings have nothing to do with it...those are for the networks.
Unfortunately, without subpoena power, the NCAA's ability to investigate is always tough, and it takes a long time. UNC will get hit.
What I don't think will happen, and wish it would.....would be to vacate this championship if they win it. I don't think anyone has the balls to do that.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:27:54 PM
Louisville is sitting out this tournament and more punishment likely coming.
UNC is going to get nailed. They are in the final throngs before that comes down.
UCONN, we will see how they do longer term, but they are in a status of limbo.
I know you were joking around, but eventually the piper has to be paid, just like USC football got clobbered out here. Sure, they had their run, and got some hardware, but they had to pay a healthy penalty as a result.
Nope. It's rare that teams actually end up paying the piper like USC and (ages ago) SMU had to. Instead, the NCAA views cheating as a noble effort to be praised, which is why programs with documented actions of cheating, from Duke to Syracuse to UConn to Louisville to North Carolina continue to be given laurels.
This may be a bit tongue in cheek, but the NCAA absolutely has created a culture where cheating is to be not only allowed but encouraged and rewarded. Any school not cheating to get ahead clearly does not prioritize winning as an important endeavor, because when you cheat, the NCAA rewards you.
We will see whether there is bias or not in the NCAA with how hard they are slapped. I hope its hard.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
What I don't think will happen, and wish it would.....would be to vacate this championship if they win it. I don't think anyone has the balls to do that.
Of course that won't happen. The only reason Memphis had their victories vacated was because they were runners up. When you win, the NCAA rewards you, no matter how those wins are earned.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
They have 5 Tier 1 allegations against them. That's as bad as it gets. I know people love to make conspiratorial comments like they are in the NCAA tournament because of the money. Sounds nice, but it's silly. The NCAA gets their money from Turner and CBS whether UNC, Duke, etc are in the tournament. It is guaranteed, ratings have nothing to do with it...those are for the networks.
Unfortunately, without subpoena power, the NCAA's ability to investigate is always tough, and it takes a long time. UNC will get hit.
What I don't think will happen, and wish it would.....would be to vacate this championship if they win it. I don't think anyone has the balls to do that.
I, too, think UNC will get nailed eventually.
I don't know what grounds could be used to vacate this championship if they win. Not a single recruit for this team was in the sham courses. I guess they could say they lacked institutional control and therefore everything that happened in the wake of the shame classes, especially given Williams' likely knowledge, could make vacating this season a reasonable punishment. But I don't think it will be seriously considered as that seems a reach.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2016, 10:34:16 PM
Nope. It's rare that teams actually end up paying the piper like USC and (ages ago) SMU had to. Instead, the NCAA views cheating as a noble effort to be praised, which is why programs with documented actions of cheating, from Duke to Syracuse to UConn to Louisville to North Carolina continue to be given laurels.
This may be a bit tongue in cheek, but the NCAA absolutely has created a culture where cheating is to be not only allowed but encouraged and rewarded. Any school not cheating to get ahead clearly does not prioritize winning as an important endeavor, because when you cheat, the NCAA rewards you.
Then the NCAA....which is the member schools....including Marquette....have no one to blame but themselves.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:40:11 PM
Then the NCAA....which is the member schools....including Marquette....have no one to blame but themselves.
Which perfectly explains why they don't actually punish themselves, and reinforces that the only smart play is to cheat often and repeatedly.
UNC gets hammered and Roy retires...
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2016, 10:36:21 PM
Of course that won't happen. The only reason Memphis had their victories vacated was because they were runners up. When you win, the NCAA rewards you, no matter how those wins are earned.
USC vacated its championships and Reggie Bush had to give back his Heisman. Memphis vacated it finals because Derek Rose cheated on his SAT.
Given these precedents UNC
should get a death penalty in both football and basketball, if not the entire athletic department (all sports).
What will they actually do?
Remember Jerry Tarkanian's famous line ....
The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky it will probably slap another two years probation on Cleveland State.
Quote from: Heisenberg on March 27, 2016, 11:46:14 PM
Remember Jerry Tarkanian's famous line ....
The NCAA is so mad at Kentucky it will probably slap another two years probation on Cleveland State.
Gotta go with Tark on this one.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:27:54 PM
Louisville is sitting out this tournament and more punishment likely coming.
UNC is going to get nailed. They are in the final throngs before that comes down.
UCONN, we will see how they do longer term, but they are in a status of limbo.
I know you were joking around, but eventually the piper has to be paid, just like USC football got clobbered out here. Sure, they had their run, and got some hardware, but they had to pay a healthy penalty as a result.
But you cant take away fan memories. Thats the problem.
Chicos continues to make very good points here. The NCAA is policing itself. It isn't the FBI. They are setting the rules, letting stuff slide and end up being quite toothless when its institutions act poorly.
My biggest problem is when they are nonsensical when it comes to student athletes. But if they slap their own institutions on the wrist, well at least everyone knows what the consequences are.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 27, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
They have 5 Tier 1 allegations against them. That's as bad as it gets. I know people love to make conspiratorial comments like they are in the NCAA tournament because of the money. Sounds nice, but it's silly. The NCAA gets their money from Turner and CBS whether UNC, Duke, etc are in the tournament. It is guaranteed, ratings have nothing to do with it...those are for the networks.
Unfortunately, without subpoena power, the NCAA's ability to investigate is always tough, and it takes a long time. UNC will get hit.
What I don't think will happen, and wish it would.....would be to vacate this championship if they win it. I don't think anyone has the balls to do that.
Who cares if they get vacated. USC fans still got memories of their team winning a title game. UNC fans will still get memories of title run. All vacating titles do is it to delay the penalty for as long as it takes anyone who witnessed said title to die. Effectively you dont get penalized till the year 2100
Nate wants the NCAA to start incorporating the Men in Black punishment...
(http://s1.thcdn.com/design-assets/products/10620666/Men%20in%20Black.jpg)
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on March 28, 2016, 08:26:53 AM
Nate wants the NCAA to start incorporating the Men in Black punishment...
(http://s1.thcdn.com/design-assets/products/10620666/Men%20in%20Black.jpg)
Yes. You would need the MIB to make a vacated title hurt.
Quote from: elephantraker on March 27, 2016, 10:30:21 PM
There has to be some serious consequences both for UNC and the department that fostered the deception
DepartmenS !!
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 28, 2016, 08:17:11 AM
But you cant take away fan memories. Thats the problem.
You can make them illigitimate. You're right, you can't erase memories, but you can corrupt them and make them meaningless.
Remember when Michigan had to do this? Off to the archives it went.
(http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/ac1394dbdcca6a36cbf486633b129cd813095ac3/r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/05/08/2013-05-08-michigan-banners-4_3.jpg)
People that watched Sosa and McGwire hit all those home runs.....know it was tainted. Sure, it happened, but it was corrupted and tainted, and that diminishes the memories considerably.
Nate, if you are advocating for MU to do some of the crap that some of these schools have done, then it would be best for your health to find a different team to choose for. I mean that as a fellow human being to another one who is concerned for your health and well being. You will end up smashing your head against the wall because it isn't going to happen here.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2016, 01:01:22 PM
You can make them illigitimate. You're right, you can't erase memories, but you can corrupt them and make them meaningless.
You're trying to tell me that if MU had to vacate their 2003 Final Four appearance that your memories - and all MU fans' memories - of that run would become "meaningless?" Not a chance.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 28, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
You're trying to tell me that if MU had to vacate their 2003 Final Four appearance that your memories - and all MU fans' memories - of that run would become "meaningless?" Not a chance.
Meaningless is a strong word. But it would definitely cheapen the memory. I wouldn't be as proud.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 28, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
You're trying to tell me that if MU had to vacate their 2003 Final Four appearance that your memories - and all MU fans' memories - of that run would become "meaningless?" Not a chance.
they made a 30 for 30 about Michigan which completely legitimized them
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 28, 2016, 02:37:42 PM
they made a 30 for 30 about Michigan which completely legitimized them
Most 30 for 30s are complete crap. They are made up BS that attempt to make situations look better than they actually were. Didn't change my opinion of that Michigan team one bit.
That's great.....
Bring on the strippers.......
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 28, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
You're trying to tell me that if MU had to vacate their 2003 Final Four appearance that your memories - and all MU fans' memories - of that run would become "meaningless?" Not a chance.
I'm telling you it would taint them considerably. Knowing we used an ineligible player, or seeing the record books with the word "vacant", having the NCAA require us to take down a Final Four banner (which they would)....yeah, that would suck. We all know it happened, and we would all know we were caught cheating and become, essentially, meaningless.
Let's hope we never have to do that. I'd prefer the Uncle Ed Martin scenarios stay away from MU, or the Chris Mills Emory envelopes, etc, etc
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on March 28, 2016, 02:37:42 PM
they made a 30 for 30 about Michigan which completely legitimized them
They're doing one about Ryan Leaf, too.......uhm, so....does that legitimize him? They did one on the fall of Troy for USC, and it was pretty damning.
The one on Michigan, what exactly did it legitimize? They cheated, were bought to assemble a team, and despite all that cheating they couldn't win it all. What a wonderful story.
"UNC is going to get nailed. They are in the final throngs before that comes down."
the NCeyey went into the 4-corner stall when the "higher ups" tapped them on the shoulder-pssst-ya know the heels are loaded this year HEYN'a? they don't have a shot clock
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2016, 04:34:12 PM
I'm telling you it would taint them considerably. Knowing we used an ineligible player, or seeing the record books with the word "vacant", having the NCAA require us to take down a Final Four banner (which they would)....yeah, that would suck. We all know it happened, and we would all know we were caught cheating and become, essentially, meaningless.
Let's hope we never have to do that. I'd prefer the Uncle Ed Martin scenarios stay away from MU, or the Chris Mills Emory envelopes, etc, etc
My problem is that it rarely hurts those who were associated with cheating. Is Pete Carroll suffering? What about Reggie Bush? Jim Boeheim? Etc, etc. I understand there's only so much you can do, especially for transgressions in the past, but it just seems a failure of the culture. And, a lack of "bite" in the punishments as they aren't harsh enough to really prevent people/programs from committing the acts in the first place.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 28, 2016, 05:15:22 PM
My problem is that it rarely hurts those who were associated with cheating. Is Pete Carroll suffering? What about Reggie Bush? Jim Boeheim? Etc, etc. I understand there's only so much you can do, especially for transgressions in the past, but it just seems a failure of the culture. And, a lack of "bite" in the punishments as they aren't harsh enough to really prevent people/programs from committing the acts in the first place.
It is supposed to be a deterrent as much as anything. Basically a kick to the nuts of the fans and the boosters in particular that such actions will mean the program takes a step backwards. Do it again, and a bigger kick to the nuts will happen.
Was Reggie Bush harmed....yes, IMO. Pete Carroll? Less so, for sure. Jim Boeheim, well it depends on one's reputation I suppose. If you heard his interview this morning, he's not thrilled that his reputation has taken a bunch of shots the last few years....how material is that? Only that individual can answer that.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 28, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
You're trying to tell me that if MU had to vacate their 2003 Final Four appearance that your memories - and all MU fans' memories - of that run would become "meaningless?" Not a chance.
I was in New Orleans four the 2003 Final Four. Bring on the MIB punishment,
please!But leave that Kentucky win memory intact!!!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2016, 01:01:22 PM
Nate, if you are advocating for MU to do some of the crap that some of these schools have done, then it would be best for your health to find a different team to choose for. I mean that as a fellow human being to another one who is concerned for your health and well being. You will end up smashing your head against the wall because it isn't going to happen here.
I think that its Brewcity77 that doing the advocating. Although I believe it's tongue in cheek.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 28, 2016, 06:25:28 PM
It is supposed to be a deterrent as much as anything. Basically a kick to the nuts of the fans and the boosters in particular that such actions will mean the program takes a step backwards. Do it again, and a bigger kick to the nuts will happen.
Was Reggie Bush harmed....yes, IMO. Pete Carroll? Less so, for sure. Jim Boeheim, well it depends on one's reputation I suppose. If you heard his interview this morning, he's not thrilled that his reputation has taken a bunch of shots the last few years....how material is that? Only that individual can answer that.
Bush has been paid somewhere between $60 million and $70 million as a pro football player.
I would like to be similarly harmed.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 28, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
You're trying to tell me that if MU had to vacate their 2003 Final Four appearance that your memories - and all MU fans' memories - of that run would become "meaningless?" Not a chance.
Imagine if you had sat next to Bill Cosby on an airplane fifteen years ago. For many people, that would be a proud memory to have had such an intimate brush with celebrity (no pun intended) and a great story to tell your children, friends and strangers for decades to come, right?
Well, if anyone is still telling that story today, it's certainly not for reasons of pride or posterity.
Quote from: brewcity77 on March 27, 2016, 08:10:49 PM
UConn gets a postseason ban, then wins the title. Syracuse self bans four years of violations, then the NCAA rewards them (literally) by ignoring their worst losses to give them an undeserved bid and Final Four. Figure Louisville and SMU are virtual locks to meet in the Championship game next year.
So how about it, Wojo? Pay players, hire hookers, fake classes, and make sure we get busted for it. We'll be back to the Final Four in no time!
Just recruit a couple of JUCOS. Look at Iowa State coming out of nowhere recently and our three Sweet 16 teams.
The Big East will become Ivy lite or Ivy heavy and totally unlike the SEC/ACC and their ilk. MU is not an NBA minor league like most "blue bloods". Al should have said "gr$$n bloods".
Mid-major stands for legitimate educational institution.
Quote from: MU82 on March 28, 2016, 10:34:26 PM
Bush has been paid somewhere between $60 million and $70 million as a pro football player.
I would like to be similarly harmed.
Ding Ding. Plus, everyone who has eyeballs watched him in college. Even if he doesn't have the trophy, he was still the best player in the nation.
Again, I just get frustrated with the lack of bite to these punishments. Especially if they're really meant to deter the "crime" in the first place.
"What I don't think will happen, and wish it would.....would be to vacate this championship if they win it. I don't think anyone has the balls to do that."
why not? ma-ma-ma-ma-ma money wouldn't have anything to do with it? when in doubt, head-scratchin in doubt, how could this be, say it ain't so....follow the money. someone(many someones) is getting greased...A LOT!! this has repercussions that will reverberate throughout, for awhile. SMU must have had a lot of bad bad people not in the wine n cheese crowd of the NCayay penthouse
Quote from: vogue65 on March 29, 2016, 06:13:53 AM
The Big East will become Ivy lite or Ivy heavy and totally unlike the SEC/ACC and their ilk. MU is not an NBA minor league like most "blue bloods". Al should have said "gr$$n bloods".
Mid-major stands for legitimate educational institution.
So Oral Roberts is a legitimate educational institution. Got it.
This year's Final Four has many storylines, maybe the most interesting one, though, is the one the NCAA definitely doesn't want you to talk about. All four teams have been involved in NCAA investigations in the last decade. Oklahoma, Syracuse and Villanova all served penalties. North Carolina is still under investigation.
http://bsndenver.com/ncaa-sanctions-not-effective-boyle-says/
On Tuesday, at his year-end press conference, Colorado head coach Tad Boyle was asked if it's frustrating for a coach who has never had compliance issues to see that. Boyle, as always, answered very honestly.
"There's frustration. I don't know what goes on at other programs, but I have an idea of who's doing things the right way and who's not. There is some frustration, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't. I think if you're not running your program the right way – I'm not casting stones on anybody – but if you get into issues with the NCAA and compliance – there are a lot of people who argue against this – but taking postseason play away is the sucker punch that the NCAA has to send a message that that's not acceptable. Suspending a coach is not effective. I'm not talking about any program in particular, but there are programs that do it the right way, there are programs who operate the gray area and there are programs who cheat. That's why we have compliance officers at every institution, that's why we have NCAA enforcement staff. I think they do a good job. There are a lot of moving targets when it comes to that. I know how we operate this program and I'm very proud of that. When you see other programs that maybe live in the gray area it is frustrating, but that's life."