http://marquettenation.com/2016/01/31/six-ways-to-save-marquettes-season/ (http://marquettenation.com/2016/01/31/six-ways-to-save-marquettes-season/)
Hey, we've already got 1/6, don't we?
#2 I do not think winning one of those four does us any good. I see two as very possible and needed. I also disagree that we cannot beat Providence. We already have and we did last year too. We may just be a bad match up for them.
Not sure what's crazier here, that going 1-3 in our next 4 would help "save our season" or that 9-9 would have us in the conversation for an at-large.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 12:34:48 PM
Not sure what's crazier here, that going 1-3 in our next 4 would help "save our season" or that 9-9 would have us in the conversation for an at-large.
The 1-3 one is what really got me.
That just made no sense
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 12:34:48 PM
Not sure what's crazier here, that going 1-3 in our next 4 would help "save our season" or that 9-9 would have us in the conversation for an at-large.
I think 9-9 will get us in the consideration. I just do not think we will be picked over the other teams who are also in consideration. However, at this point there is no way of knowing who the bubble teams will be.
Click on link to click on another link :o
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 12:47:24 PM
I think 9-9 will get us in the consideration. I just do not think we will be picked over the other teams who are also in consideration. However, at this point there is no way of knowing who the bubble teams will be.
It would take a really, really soft bubble. 9-9, even with two wins at MSG, would leave us with a likely RPI in the 70s. There hasn't been an at large in the 70s this century.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 31, 2016, 12:50:22 PM
Click on link to click on another link :o
Teams are going to play themselves onto or off the bubble. MU has to play themselves on. No way of knowing how the rest of the regular season along with conference tournaments are going to play out for anyteams. Certainly there will be a team that you would consider a lock now ending up on the bubble and a team (maybe MU) who plays themself onto the bubble.
I know some of the guys over at Marquette nation and let's just say they aren't the most knowledgeable about basketball. They're more eternal optimist, cheerleader type. They don't really understand what it means to make the tourney because for a lot of them their freshman year was last year or this year.
We just need to win more games and lose fewer games.
If we are deserving it will work out.
My realistic goal is a successful NIT run.
We're on the outside looking in right now. Real Warriors hate that and don't give up until the season is over.
Basically, we're going to have to protect our house like we did against Butler. Win all 'em at home (OK, except Villanova), beat those horses a*s Blue Demons in Rosemont and do our best to win this week in Seton Hall and Omaha and we're probably back on the bubble.
If we play like we did Saturday with the defensive intensity we had, there isn't a game we have left that we're not in it!
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 31, 2016, 12:47:04 PM
The 1-3 one is what really got me.
That just made no sense
Yeah, the whole article was stupid. The author pretty much communicated he had no pulse of MU hoops or college basketball in general. That's what I got out of it.
Quote from: AirPunch on January 31, 2016, 01:57:45 PM
Yeah, the whole article was stupid. The author pretty much communicated he had no pulse of MU hoops or college basketball in general. That's what I got out of it.
You're not wrong.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 12:55:55 PM
It would take a really, really soft bubble. 9-9, even with two wins at MSG, would leave us with a likely RPI in the 70s. There hasn't been an at large in the 70s this century.
I agree that 9-9 probably won't get it done, but there are 4 more at large teams now than there were for the majority of the last decade. That makes a difference.
9-9 will get them on the committees radar, but likely leaves them out.
I want an NCAA bid. However, that is likely to be a one and done. An NIT bid could mean several more games to watch Ellenson before he leaves. Anyway any tournament experience is good for next year's team.
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 02:04:27 PM
I want an NCAA bid. However, that is likely to be a one and done. An NIT bid could mean several more games to watch Ellenson before he leaves. Anyway any tournament experience is good for next year's team.
Nonsense. You take one and done NCAAs (plus, once there you never know), over an NIT championship everyday.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2016, 02:06:37 PM
Nonsense. You take one and done NCAAs (plus, once there you never know), over an NIT championship everyday.
I don't agree with this at all. If I were given a choice between a one and done NCAA bid, and an NIT Final Four run, I would take the latter with a young team.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
I don't agree with this at all. If I were given a choice between a one and done NCAA bid, and an NIT Final Four run, I would take the latter with a young team.
I wouldn't. Plus, you can't choose the outcomes once there. You take the NCAAs everytime. Never know what can happen. Who gives a rip about the NIT? Sure, it'd be nice for this team to take a deep run in the NITs if that's where they end up, but I can't guarantee no one on the team, or the coaching staff, thinks that way.
If they end up in the NIT, of course I will root for them and hope they win it, but it's NCAAs until they're eliminated.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2016, 02:14:18 PM
I wouldn't. Plus, you can't choose the outcomes once there. You take the NCAAs everytime. Never know what can happen. Who gives a rip about the NIT? Sure, it'd be nice for this team to take a deep run in the NITs if that's where they end up, but I can't guarantee no one on the team, or the coaching staff, thinks that way.
If they end up in the NIT, of course I will root for them and hope they win it, but it's NCAAs until they're eliminated.
I don't think you understand my point. IF I were told the guaranteed outcome of an NCAA bid was a first round loss, and IF I was told the guaranteed outcome of an NIT bid was a final four run, I would take the latter.
But I would take an NCAA bid over an NIT bid because, as you said, you never know.
This year I'd take the NIT Final Four. Here's the thing, I don't realistically have any hopes of anything more than a Sweet 16 run (and that's ultimate optimist) this year, which means we're building for the future.
I'll take home games and a longer season over losing in the first round, or worse, losing a play in where no one is even writing our name in their bracket.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 02:16:22 PM
I don't think you understand my point. IF I were told the guaranteed outcome of an NCAA bid was a first round loss, and IF I was told the guaranteed outcome of an NIT bid was a final four run, I would take the latter.
But I would take an NCAA bid over an NIT bid because, as you said, you never know.
I fully understand your point, Sultan. Problem is, there are no guaranteed outcomes, so you take NCAAs everytime.
But I do agree that a deep run in the NIT would be good for this team since it so young. But I think ending this 2 year drought would be more important to the team, to confidence, to recruiting, to fans, etc. It's better for the program for MU to dance.
One game at a time. A W on Wednesday is necessary.
I'd take the NCAA bid even if you knew ahead of time that you'd lose. NCAA bids are a stat with historical significance for a program.
Quote from: Litehouse on January 31, 2016, 02:46:27 PM
I'd take the NCAA bid even if you knew ahead of time that you'd lose. NCAA bids are a stat with historical significance for a program.
Not really.
Quote from: Litehouse on January 31, 2016, 02:46:27 PM
I'd take the NCAA bid even if you knew ahead of time that you'd lose. NCAA bids are a stat with historical significance for a program.
Exactly. No one cares about or watches the NIT. I am a pretty die hard CBB fan and watch a ton of it. I may flip on a few NIT games since it is only CBB on at the time (midweek), but it is a totally meaningless tournament outside of gaining experience for the returning players.
I'd take a throttling in the first NCAA game over an NIT championship, but it's a moot point because we're not getting to the NCAA this year. Make the best of it by making the NIT and showing up for it.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2016, 02:51:16 PM
Exactly. No one cares about or watches the NIT. I am a pretty die hard CBB fan and watch a ton of it. I may flip on a few NIT games since it is only CBB on at the time (midweek), but it is a totally meaningless tournament outside of gaining experience for the returning players.
Who cares who watches it? It's about my team playing more games for my benefit and the player's experience.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
If I were given a choice between a one and done NCAA bid, and an NIT Final Four run, I would take the latter with a young team.
Well, hello there Coach Deane! Welcome back to MU.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 03:01:57 PM
Who cares who watches it? It's about my team playing more games for my benefit and the player's experience.
Just another point that The NIT is irrelevant.
Again, if Marquette lands in the NIT, I hope they win it and I'll be cheering like crazy like i do every game.
But for like the 5th time, you take the NCAAs every time. This program badly needs to get back there. If you can't see that, well I don't know what to tell you.
But then again, I gather you're an older guy who has seen MU go thru plenty of poor seasons. I've been an MU fan for 8 seasons, and to me, missing the tournament is a colossal failure. I became an MU fan watching winning teams that played in meaningful games in March. Not friendship games.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2016, 03:12:20 PM
Just another point that The NIT is irrelevant.
Again, if Marquette lands in the NIT, I hope they win it and I'll be cheering like crazy like i do every game.
But for like the 5th time, you take the NCAAs every time. This program badly needs to get back there. If you can't see that, well I don't know what to tell you.
But then again, I gather you're an older guy who has seen MU go thru plenty of poor seasons. I've been an MU fan for 8 seasons, and to me, missing the tournament is a colossal failure. I became an MU fan watching winning teams that played in meaningful games in March. Not friendship games.
Yes, I have lived through my share of Marquette basketball. I know that it isn't a "colossal failure" to miss the tournament as long as the journey continues toward a return trip in the near future. I feel like we are on that journey.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 03:15:50 PM
Yes, I have lived through my share of Marquette basketball. I know that it isn't a "colossal failure" to miss the tournament as long as the journey continues toward a return trip in the near future. I feel like we are on that journey.
Touché. It ain't over yet, man!
For a team made up mostly of freshman and sophomores, having tourney success could pay larger dividends in the coming years. I'd love a deep NIT run this year and getting used to winning in March may be more valuable than being blown out in the Big Dance.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2016, 02:51:16 PM
Exactly. No one cares about or watches the NIT. I am a pretty die hard CBB fan and watch a ton of it. I may flip on a few NIT games since it is only CBB on at the time (midweek), but it is a totally meaningless tournament outside of gaining experience for the returning players.
I'm with you, I prefer the NCAA tournament bid and first round loss.
However, I would definitely watch Marquette with great interest should they make the NIT this year.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
I don't agree with this at all. If I were given a choice between a one and done NCAA bid, and an NIT Final Four run, I would take the latter with a young team.
Sorry but no way. Tourney at least generates excitement and exposure as well as some big time experience.
As a mere gopher supporter the NIT means nothing. You can win that whole thing, return basically everyone and still manage to suck.
Quote from: MuEagle1090 on January 31, 2016, 03:27:05 PMHowever, I would definitely watch Marquette with great interest should they make the NIT this year.
I agree that nothing would give me more joy than watching us be the surprise NCAA team, but a NIT title would be really cool. First, the connection to Al, but also because it'd be one of those things that the diehard fans works really enjoy, even if passive fans were unaware it was happening.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
I don't agree with this at all. If I were given a choice between a one and done NCAA bid, and an NIT Final Four run, I would take the latter with a young team.
No F*in way!
Warriors Play for the NCAA.
I'll fly across the country on a moment's notice to watch the Warriors in the NCAA.
I generally won't waste my time and won't go to Milwaukee for an NIT game.
Call me a fair weather fan if you like. But the NCAA is the real thing.
Warriors play to win. Going to the NCAA is winning. Going to the NIT isn't.
Yea, this ain't the NIT of the 70s and 80s. The NIT doesn't matter. NCAA tourney or bust.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 31, 2016, 04:29:56 PM
Yea, this ain't the NIT of the 70s and 80s. The NIT doesn't matter. NCAA tourney or bust.
NCAA's are just a pipe dream at the moment. Now, if we get to the NCAAs, a lot will have gone right. If not, the NIT would be a very nice opportunity for this young team.
The NIT does matter. More practice time. More games. More chances for me to watch my team. It certainly can't hurt the team heading into next year.
You guys are acting as if I said that going to the NIT is better than the NCAA.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 04:34:25 PM
The NIT does matter. More practice time. More games. More chances for me to watch my team. It certainly can't hurt the team heading into next year.
You guys are acting as if I said that going to the NIT is better than the NCAA.
You said that you would take NIT FF over Tourney first game loss though. That's where I simply disagree.
If we go to the NIT do be it.
But it is never more beneficial. Just simply isn't.
You think Duane is going to be flexing his muscles next year because he scored 23 pts in a NIT home win over Toledo or some garbage like that? I hope not.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 31, 2016, 04:45:45 PM
You said that you would take NIT FF over Tourney first game loss though. That's where I simply disagree.
If we go to the NIT do be it.
But it is never more beneficial. Just simply isn't.
You think Duane is going to be flexing his muscles next year because he scored 23 pts in a NIT home win over Toledo or some garbage like that? I hope not.
Nobody can give me a substantive basketball reason why it would be more beneficial to lose in the first round.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
Nobody can give me a substantive basketball reason why it would be more beneficial to lose in the first round.
I'd say many 18 year old recruits care a lot more that you've been to the NCAA recently than the FF of the NIT. Also the same with the more -"casual" STH
Quote from: 1SE on January 31, 2016, 05:11:28 PM
I'd say many 18 year old recruits care a lot more that you've been to the NCAA recently than the FF of the NIT. Also the same with the more -"casual" STH
Although I should clarify that the "first four" still isn't the NCAA. Worst thing to happen to CBB ever. Rather have a NIT FF than a NCAA first four loss...
Being one of the Thursday or Friday games is awesome. The best two days in all of sport.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
Nobody can give me a substantive basketball reason why it would be more beneficial to lose in the first round.
Haha easy.
The exposure to the biggest stage. You've proven to yourselves you are good enough to get their. Now you know what it's gonna require to actually win. A measuring stick against the best. Confidence that as a team your capable of making it to the Big dance.
Seriously what's a substantial basketball reason for the NIT? Say "o yay, we proved we could beat a couple of fellow bad teams". All the NIT tells you is where you stack up against other poor teams.
This really shouldn't be a debate. Maybe you personally would prefer to watch that option. But it's not better for the team lol.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 31, 2016, 05:13:59 PM
Haha easy.
The exposure to the biggest stage. You've proven to yourselves you are good enough to get their. Now you know what it's gonna require to actually win. A measuring stick against the best. Confidence that as a team your capable of making it to the Big dance.
Seriously what's a substantial basketball reason for the NIT? Say "o yay, we proved we could beat a couple of fellow bad teams". All the NIT tells you is where you stack up against other poor teams.
This really shouldn't be a debate. Maybe you personally would prefer to watch that option. But it's not better for the team lol.
Actually I would prefer to watch the NCAA.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 02:47:59 PM
Not really.
Actually, I think that the cache that comes with NCAA appearances is huge, as opposed to the folly that is the NIT, even an NIT championship. The Big Dance is called the Big Dance for a reason. Recruits and fans of opposing teams take notice of this...
Quote from: 1SE on January 31, 2016, 05:13:50 PM
Although I should clarify that the "first four" still isn't the NCAA. Worst thing to happen to CBB ever. Rather have a NIT FF than a NCAA first four loss...
Being one of the Thursday or Friday games is awesome. The best two days in all of sport.
Yeah that's a solid case.
It's just nonsensical to prefer NIT FF over a Thursday/Friday game though. All eyes on you. Even casual fans know you've made it.
Before our 16,16,8 success when we kept losing 1st or second round. Everyone in my personal life had a higher perception of us then ud think. Because we're constantly being seen. They don't know about the heartbreakers. The MSU debacle. They just know they routinely saw MARQUETTE
Think I'm 2010 it would have been better to go to NIT???
Another "basketball benefit" of going to the NCAAs, even if getting blown out in the first game, is that the young players get a taste of the tourney. The big stage, the jitters. Get tthat out of the way this year if we can.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 31, 2016, 05:19:06 PM
Yeah that's a solid case.
It's just nonsensical to prefer NIT FF over a Thursday/Friday game though. All eyes on you. Even casual fans know you've made it.
Before our 16,16,8 success when we kept losing 1st or second round. Everyone in my personal life had a higher perception of us then ud think. Because we're constantly being seen. They don't know about the heartbreakers. The MSU debacle. They just know they routinely saw MARQUETTE
Think I'm 2010 it would have been better to go to NIT???
Not really comparable. In 2010 we were an experienced team and a #6 seed.
I would like to remind people of my POV. If I were told beforehand that we would lose in the first round of the NCAAs, OR Final Four of the NIT, I would choose the NIT. But since we don't know beforehand, I would take the NCAA tournament every single time.
Having experienced the NIT up close many times in the past (including '93 with Minnesota over Georgetown and while in school with MU vs. Ace Custis) and recent years (including Minnesota's lost to Stanford in the 2012 finals and their championship in 2014), the NIT ride can be very fun to watch.
However... does it help a ton? Ehh.. depends on the team makeup and a bunch of other variables. Last year's champion Stanford looks like they may finish under .500 this year.. 2014's champ Minnesota returned to teh court in 2014-15 with a veteran team that failed to make any postseason tourney.
For every Wichita St... there is a Penn St.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 05:31:34 PM
Not really comparable. In 2010 we were an experienced team and a #6 seed.
I would like to remind people of my POV. If I were told beforehand that we would lose in the first round of the NCAAs, OR Final Four of the NIT, I would choose the NIT. But since we don't know beforehand, I would take the NCAA tournament every single time.
We were 2-5 with a loss to DePaul then too. And we're not gonna have Henry next year so doesn't do much good either way much like Lazar. But Junior got big experience, Jimmy felt the heartbreak of not stopping his guy. DJO and Buycks felt it.
I get your POV. But there just isn't anything beneficial. Again, I saw it with the crappy gophers. Last year with a Vet team off a NIT title they still sucked. Beating bad teams doesn't make you good.
Losing to a good team gives you invaluable experience. Maybe it's a patented MU thriller? All I know is for the first time JJJ, Duane, Luke, Sandy know what it's like to be somewhat successful.
I'd rather build off a loss on the Big stage then hope beating blah teams makes Sandy finally be confident in his shot or Luke to finally go up strong.
And then obviously from a Brand aspect we know which option is better.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 31, 2016, 05:41:03 PM
I get your POV. But there just isn't anything beneficial. Again, I saw it with the crappy gophers. Last year with a Vet team off a NIT title they still sucked. Beating bad teams doesn't make you good.
Yeah, but the Gophers were a team with a young, inexperienced coach... and we, ummm.. ugh..
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
Nobody can give me a substantive basketball reason why it would be more beneficial to lose in the first round.
1. Exposure. Potential recruits watch the NCAA. Far fewer watch the NIT.
2. Experience on the biggest stage.
RPI wizard (based on Sagarin analytic model which NCAA uses for selecting at large bids) has Marquette finishing:
18-13, 120/122 RPI, 90 SOS.
6.89 % chance of winning 20 games.
Interesting site to mess around on:
http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Marquette.html
It's two different questions. If you know the result is a NIT Final Four (and two more weeks of meaningful Marquette basketball) or losing our first NCAA game and having the season done by Friday, I'll take the longer season. The only tangible advantage to the NCAA bid is the credits for the league.
But if you don't know the results, take the NCAA bid. No doubt.
Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on January 31, 2016, 02:06:37 PM
Nonsense. You take one and done NCAAs (plus, once there you never know), over an NIT championship everyday.
I was not advocating that we turn down an NCAA bid. I still think McGuire was stupid to turn one down. What I was saying is if we do not get an NCAA bid we may actually get to see Henry play more games, which is not all that bad. Of course we could win a first round NCAA game or lose a first round NIT. Nothing is a given.
Certainly an interesting debate growing out of a...erm...questionable article ;D
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
Nobody can give me a substantive basketball reason why it would be more beneficial to lose in the first round.
I think players that have not been to the NCAA cannot anticipate the level of intensity and that is why a team that has not been there can be rocked at the start of the game. Think of the amigos first year. They got down and lost the game when they came back and Novak miss the game winner. We lost the first year MacIlvanie, Key & Logterman made the tourney. The same with Wade & Diener's first year. Again another game we missed the game winning shot. So I argue there would be a big advantage to getting NCAA bid, even if we lost the first game, because with the possible exception of Henry we have everyone coming back. I do not think playing in the NIT gives you the same intensity, especially if you are getting home games. We need an NCAA bid, but if not an NIT bid is good and I would not turn down a CBI bid. As far as exposure a first round loss, especially in a play in game, does not give you much exposure. But saying you got a bid should help recruiting. recruits are not looking to play in anything but the NCAA.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 31, 2016, 06:05:08 PM
RPI wizard (based on Sagarin analytic model which NCAA uses for selecting at large bids) has Marquette finishing:
18-13, 120/122 RPI, 90 SOS.
6.89 % chance of winning 20 games.
Interesting site to mess around on:
http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Marquette.html
The NIT has to take the conference champions that do not get an NCAA bid. Factoring that in, we will not get an NIT bid with a 120 RPI.
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 07:39:40 PM
The NIT has to take the conference champions that do not get an NCAA bid. Factoring that in, we will not get an NIT bid with a 120 RPI.
Probably need 20 wins for the NIT. 9-9 or 10-8 give us a shot. Probably need to be in the 65-90 RPI range. Let's not forget our 2014 team missed the NIT despite a 9-9 league record and 92 RPI.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
Probably need 20 wins for the NIT. 9-9 or 10-8 give us a shot. Probably need to be in the 65-90 RPI range. Let's not forget our 2014 team missed the NIT despite a 9-9 league record and 92 RPI.
Fudge...I did not remember that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 31, 2016, 07:58:40 PM
Probably need 20 wins for the NIT. 9-9 or 10-8 give us a shot. Probably need to be in the 65-90 RPI range. Let's not forget our 2014 team missed the NIT despite a 9-9 league record and 92 RPI.
I was expecting an NIT bid and was very disappointed when we did not get one. I know the coaching staff was expecting one. I always had the feeling (no proof) that we lost the bid, because we were insisting on a home game.
Quote from: bilsu on January 31, 2016, 08:25:30 PM
I was expecting an NIT bid and was very disappointed when we did not get one. I know the coaching staff was expecting one. I always had the feeling (no proof) that we lost the bid, because we were insisting on a home game.
I'm sure the four game losing streak that dropped us from 17-11 to 17-15 didn't help matters.
Serious question: why is it we don't count our NIT championship as a NC?
I know that's ridiculous in today's NIT, but I recall lots of references to the NIT being just as prestigious as the NCAAs in the 1970s.
Wasn't alive then so no idea; am I way off with that understanding?
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on January 31, 2016, 04:29:56 PM
Yea, this ain't the NIT of the 70s and 80s. The NIT doesn't matter. NCAA tourney or bust.
What's the difference between 70s/80s NIT and current day NIT?
Quote from: Black_Sands on January 31, 2016, 10:40:23 PM
What's the difference between 70s/80s NIT and current day NIT?
I'm one of the worst people here to asl because I'm only 22 but since the NCAA tourney was only 32 teams for a long time, a lot of great teams got snubbed (or just rejected the invite because they didn't like where they were placed)
Quote from: Black_Sands on January 31, 2016, 10:40:23 PM
What's the difference between 70s/80s NIT and current day NIT?
In 1970, when we won it, there were 24 teams in the NCAA tournament. Conferences sent only one team. There were about eight at-large bids, two for each region.
There were a lot of teams that were incredibly good that went to the NIT because there was no room for them in the NCAA. The NCAA "got smart" in the 1970s and gradually began expanding the tournament to its present 68 teams.
A pissed-off Al famously rejected the NCAA tournament for the NIT in 1970 because the NCAA wouldn't put him in the region he preferred. (That will never, ever, ever happen again.) The Warriors then pretty much laid waste to the NIT field to win the title. They vanquished Dr. J (UMass) and Pistol Pete (LSU) in the process.
Back then, there wasn't a humongous financial discrepancy between the NCAA and the NIT, and going to MSG to win an NIT title was still considered quite prestigious. Plus, there were only 25 schools in the 1970 NCAA tourney.
However, it wasn't very many years longer that the NCAA tournament started lavishing comparatively big bucks just for participating -- and bigger still for advancing. And it became accepted throughout the basketball world that the NCAA tournament was far superior to the NIT. That characterization came in before 1980 but really took hold as the NCAA tourney expanded from 1979-85. In 1985, when the NCAA expanded to 64 teams, the NIT had all but become a JV event.
If we can't get to the NCAAs this season, Marquette is just the type of program that should embrace an NIT bid. It is a good opportunity for a young team to get 2-3 more weeks together in a competitive environment. It can -- and, historically has -- provided a good springboard for such teams going into the following season.
I do completely understand why veteran teams that have had disappointing seasons might just say "screw it" and skip the NIT.
Quote from: MU82 on February 01, 2016, 09:26:18 AM
A pissed-off Al famously rejected the NCAA tournament for the NIT in 1970 because the NCAA wouldn't put him in the region he preferred. (That will never, ever, ever happen again.) The Warriors then pretty much laid waste to the NIT field to win the title. They vanquished Dr. J (UMass) and Pistol Pete (LSU) in the process.
Back then, there wasn't a humongous financial discrepancy between the NCAA and the NIT, and going to MSG to win an NIT title was still considered quite prestigious. Plus, there were only 25 schools in the 1970 NCAA tourney.
Al also said after that fact that going to the NIT was a mistake. Not sure I'd say they "laid waste" to the field, they nearly got knocked off in the first round by Dr. J and UMass. Game was tied with 2:00 to play before Marquette pulled away. Would have been a very different memory if Al had turned down the NCAA only to lose in their first NIT game.
We're tied for 12th in all-time NCAA appearances with 31. Any time you get a chance to add to that total you should take it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men%27s_Division_I_Tournament_bids_by_school
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 31, 2016, 04:50:22 PM
Nobody can give me a substantive basketball reason why it would be more beneficial to lose in the first round.
At this point, a multitude of reasons (from several different posters) have been mentioned as to why the NCAAs are far superior to anything relating to the NIT. Glad we could spur a good discussion, but as I said when we started this discussion, you take the NCAAs every single time, even if you're in the first 4, or if you get your doors blown off in a 12/5 matchup (don't see that happening anyway).
Now, Henry, take us to the promised land, young man.
Everyone has a formula...and sure, they are all a stretch...and of course there is the "BET hope against hope".
After every loss I recreate a new formula until I have to give up...I gave up after Georgetown#2 last year.
anyway after DePaul, this is what I brewed up to get in:
<Stetson - W>
Butler - W
@SetonHall - W
@Xavier - loss
Providence - W
Creighton - W
@DePaul - W
@Creighton - loss
Villanova - loss
Georgetown - W
@Butler - W
-----------------------
10-8 BE
1-1 BET
-----------------------
22-11
I know one way: just win baby!
Saturday: great crowd, great performance by the squad and staff. A very nice win for a young team. Man is the big fella Henry impressive. Can they shoot that well consistently? Probably not. But it was a nice win to build off of... lets BEAT SETON HALL
GO WARRIORS
I do think every game besides @ Xavier is winnable for this team.
But we could also lose every game.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 01, 2016, 09:42:29 AM
Al also said after that fact that going to the NIT was a mistake. Not sure I'd say they "laid waste" to the field, they nearly got knocked off in the first round by Dr. J and UMass. Game was tied with 2:00 to play before Marquette pulled away. Would have been a very different memory if Al had turned down the NCAA only to lose in their first NIT game.
At the time, the NIT still had prestige, and more importantly for MU, it had big New York media coverage. Remember those were pre cable pre ESPN days so local media was very big. The games were all at the Garden. The finals were televised on national TV again which was a big deal . The Knicks were doing well in those days and Al was a former Knick and his brother Dick was a Knick legend so the news media was very into this NIT . Al got a lot of publicity for the decision which really benefited MU.
By the way the teams that were invited to the NIT that year :
Army ( Bob Knight coaching)
Cincinnati
Duke
Duquesne
Georgetown
Georgia Tech
LSU
Louisville
Manhattan
Marquette
Massachusetts
Miami (OH)
North Carolina
Oklahoma
St. John's
Utah
Pistol Pete of LSU was a true legend and that gave the tournament some spice as well.
In my view this was the last NIT that truly had cachet.
NCAA only had 24 teams in those days. It eventually expanded to 32. NIT continued on with respectability until the NCAA expanded to 64 teams in 1979-80
In our MU history, things worked out that we chose the NIT. So I will just leave it at that.
In 1970 Al was pissed because #4 Jacksonville and #9 Notre Dame received the two at-large bids in the MidEast. Marquette was to have been put in the Fort Worth region rather than the Dayton region which went to ND.
Al was certain Adolph Rupp was behind moving Marquette out of the Mideast region where Kentucky was.
With only one team allowed in the NCAA's from each conference, the NIT often had ranked teams. I think it was 1972 that there were 5 top-20 teams in the 16 team NIT field.
In 1970 South Carolina went 14-0 in the ACC but lost the conf final to NC State in one of the slow down battles that had become the norm for ACC tourney games. NC State had earlier defeated Duke 12-10. That ultimately led to Frank McGuire moving the Gamecocks out of the ACC and becoming an independent in 1972.
Even though South Carolina was still ranked 6th after the defeat they were prohibited by the NCAA from accepting a bid from the NIT because they were playing host to a first round 1970 NCAA game. Times certainly have changed.
Quote from: MU82 on February 01, 2016, 09:26:18 AM
A pissed-off Al famously rejected the NCAA tournament for the NIT in 1970 because the NCAA wouldn't put him in the region he preferred. (That will never, ever, ever happen again.)
I am pretty sure this is true because the NCAA instituted a rule where you cannot reject the invitation and go play in another tournament.
Quote from: Frenns Liquor Depot on February 01, 2016, 03:57:15 PM
I am pretty sure this is true because the NCAA instituted a rule where you cannot reject the invitation and go play in another tournament.
I am also pretty sure this would be true even if there were no such rule because in addition to the prestige of the NCAA tournament, that event pays participating schools SIGNIFICANTLY more money.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 01, 2016, 09:42:29 AM
Al also said after that fact that going to the NIT was a mistake. Not sure I'd say they "laid waste" to the field, they nearly got knocked off in the first round by Dr. J and UMass. Game was tied with 2:00 to play before Marquette pulled away. Would have been a very different memory if Al had turned down the NCAA only to lose in their first NIT game.
Al also said he turned to Hank during the game and said why did you not tell me about Dr. J. or something to that extent. Back then there was not a lot of scouting of teams.