Saw he is releasing his new rankings his morning. Will be interested to see where Henry is at
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 21, 2016, 10:06:46 AM
Saw he is releasing his new rankings his morning. Will be interested to see where Henry is at
Between 7 and 12.
Don't have insider, but according to the headline, he's moving up.
Some of you guys need to realize that NBA teams don't care if MU is good or not, or let that cloud their judgement as you do (they also understand when a guys game/body is tailor made for the NBA, as HE's is). Much like the combine is so important in the NFL, these guys are juspdged on their measurable so and potential exponentially more that no what they do in college games.
4th again.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 21, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
4th again.
Gaaaaaaaa..........didn't the evaluators see Hobbled Henry last night losing to the worst program in Big East history? How dare they think he's a lottery talent when it's clear Wojo has stripped him of all his balling mojo.
These yahoos who think Henry won't be a lottery pick must never have seen an NBA draft, must never have read stories quoting NBA scouts and GMs when they say what they are looking for, and must never have seen the likes of Vonleh and Len play in college.
Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2016, 10:47:51 AM
These yahoos who think Henry won't be a lottery pick must never have seen an NBA draft, must never have read stories quoting NBA scouts and GMs when they say what they are looking for, and must never have seen the likes of Vonleh and Len play in college.
Forgot about that kid
Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2016, 10:47:51 AM
These yahoos who think Henry won't be a lottery pick must never have seen an NBA draft, must never have read stories quoting NBA scouts and GMs when they say what they are looking for, and must never have seen the likes of Vonleh and Len play in college.
These are the same yahoos that are coming to conclusions about Wojo's coaching ability and basketball knowledge based on the "inside the huddle" segments shown on TV during our games. They obviously played basketball in high school, duh.
Quote from: MUfan12 on January 21, 2016, 10:25:41 AM
4th again.
The Timberwolves are loaded with young talent, but they're struggling to compete with the other elite teams in the West and look destined to land yet another top-five pick. They already have a number of young players they love -- Andrew Wiggins, Karl-Anthony Towns, Zach LaVine, Ricky Rubio and Shabazz Muhammad -- but could still use some help at the 4.
Ellenson is a perfect fit as a big who can rebound and spread the floor. Think of him as a poor man's Kevin Love, to invoke the name of a recent Timberwolves star.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 21, 2016, 11:09:46 AM
These are the same yahoos that are coming to conclusions about Wojo's coaching ability and basketball knowledge based on the "inside the huddle" segments shown on TV during our games. They obviously played basketball in high school, duh.
Exactly.
Somebody needs to tell 'em: Open your effen eyes and ears, and look at what's going on outside your little cocoons. Maybe you'll learn something.
Oh, and don't just swing by Scoop to post when you're a pissed off, whiny little be-atch.
(I guess I did just tell 'em.)
He will be a nice benchwarmer next year in the NBA, maybe spends a little time in the D league. But a millionaire for sure.
Speaking of D-league playing time... I watched Kevon Looney play in the D-League last night...the boy has a lot of work to do to be a NBA player.
I think Santa Cruz Warriors next game is televised on ESPNU on Friday.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 21, 2016, 11:09:46 AM
These are the same yahoos that are coming to conclusions about Wojo's coaching ability and basketball knowledge based on the "inside the huddle" segments shown on TV during our games. They obviously played basketball in high school, duh.
Quote from: MU82 on January 21, 2016, 01:06:03 PM
Exactly.
Somebody needs to tell 'em: Open your effen eyes and ears, and look at what's going on outside your little cocoons. Maybe you'll learn something.
Oh, and don't just swing by Scoop to post when you're a pissed off, whiny little be-atch.
(I guess I did just tell 'em.)
Hey, guys, I'm the one that first mentioned the "inside the huddle" observation in the "Wojo is a heck of a coach" thread http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50313.msg795887#msg795887 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50313.msg795887#msg795887), and if you re-read my post and the subsequent ones, I think you'll see very little of the over the top judgment and "conclusions about Wojo's coaching ability and basketball knowledge" and "whiny little be-atch" tone that you are carrying over into a different thread.
Between my initial post...
Quote from: mug644 on January 21, 2016, 07:50:32 AM
I'm certainly not as ready to give up on Wojo as some posters seem to be, but I've been wondering where to put out this observation: each time I see that Fox is about to "go into the MU huddle" I cringe a little bit. Wojo seems so--I can't really put a word on it--unconvincing. I've not really heard much technical coaching, as in setting up a play or giving specific instructions. Nor is there much inspiration in his words and tone, like a leader or captain. What I see and hear is repetition. He seems to grab onto to one phrase ("pass the ball") and repeat it 3 or 4 times.
Now, I realize that what Fox shows is just a small slice of his on the sideline coaching, but it just doesn't leave me impressed.
and a second comment responding to TAMU..
Quote from: mug644 on January 21, 2016, 08:52:10 AM
As implied in my initial post about the huddles, I do presume that that is the case. But what we do see is just shallow, and I'm not sure how it directs or motivates the players. Maybe I'm wrong about how it impacts the players, maybe my expectations are unrealistic and/or maybe the "in the huddle" idea is lacking.
I can't and won't use what we see in the huddle as a means of judging Wojo; it was simply an observation.
Further, I'm not ready to reminisce about Buzz and compare Wojo to Buzz.
and then Wadesworld initial response...
Quote from: wadesworld on January 21, 2016, 08:47:44 AM
This place is awesome. Determining how good of a coach we have based on 5 second segments each games that go "inside the huddle."
There are way too many things wrong with this to even bother addressing further.
there were 2 guys who said "I miss Buzz" and 1 guy who asked which Buzz do they miss.
I responded to Wadesworld, asking...
Quote from: mug644 on January 21, 2016, 08:56:30 AM
Wait a second, please. Show me where I--as the person who first brought up my huddle observation--was "determining how good a coach we have."
In subsequent, related comments, two posters mention "I miss Buzz" but it's not as if they were over the top and they were not judging Wojo based on those "5 second segments."
If anyone is overreacting, I venture to say it is you.
but he never responded. Indeed, for the rest of the thread, there was very little judging of Wojo (except for crazyfannyboy54, who seems to be trolling this afternoon), and certainly nothing stating or even implying that what we see during "in the huddle" is proof that he can't coach. Most of the discussion around "in the huddle" was really just observations, like my first comment.
If you see that thread differently than I, please point to specific comments and even specific people. If not, I'll assume that Wadesworld lack of response to my above request was a silent means of pointing out that he did indeed overreact.
Nevertheless, you both carry that over to this thread. For what? I don't get it.
Chad will retroactively change his rankings as he's done in the past, so nothing to see here.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 21, 2016, 03:05:18 PM
Chad will retroactively change his rankings as he's done in the past, so nothing to see here.
+1
Quote from: mug644 on January 21, 2016, 02:38:32 PM
Hey, guys, I'm the one that first mentioned the "inside the huddle" observation in the "Wojo is a heck of a coach" thread http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50313.msg795887#msg795887 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50313.msg795887#msg795887), and if you re-read my post and the subsequent ones, I think you'll see very little of the over the top judgment and "conclusions about Wojo's coaching ability and basketball knowledge" and "whiny little be-atch" tone that you are carrying over into a different thread.
Between my initial post...
and a second comment responding to TAMU..
and then Wadesworld initial response...
there were 2 guys who said "I miss Buzz" and 1 guy who asked which Buzz do they miss.
I responded to Wadesworld, asking...
but he never responded. Indeed, for the rest of the thread, there was very little judging of Wojo (except for crazyfannyboy54, who seems to be trolling this afternoon), and certainly nothing stating or even implying that what we see during "in the huddle" is proof that he can't coach. Most of the discussion around "in the huddle" was really just observations, like my first comment.
If you see that thread differently than I, please point to specific comments and even specific people. If not, I'll assume that Wadesworld lack of response to my above request was a silent means of pointing out that he did indeed overreact.
Nevertheless, you both carry that over to this thread. For what? I don't get it.
I did respond in that thread. Feel free to read my further comments. Anything you see at all from "inside the huddle" is completely irrelevant. I'll say it again, watch a Spurs game on TNT. When they go "inside the huddle," all you'll hear from Pop is "play the right way," and, "move the basketball." Nothing motivating. Nothing genius. And (I think?) Pop has proven to not be some boring, clichéd, coach's speak, moron of a basketball coach. Any observations are completely meaningless. So meaningless that I'll leave it at that regardless of any further responses.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 21, 2016, 03:25:07 PM
I did respond in that thread. Feel free to read my further comments. Anything you see at all from "inside the huddle" is completely irrelevant. I'll say it again, watch a Spurs game on TNT. When they go "inside the huddle," all you'll hear from Pop is "play the right way," and, "move the basketball." Nothing motivating. Nothing genius. And (I think?) Pop has proven to not be some boring, clichéd, coach's speak, moron of a basketball coach. Any observations are completely meaningless. So meaningless that I'll leave it at that regardless of any further responses.
I read your comments, and hold fast to the idea that you overreacted prematurely. "Any observations are completely meaningless"? You might keep that in mind when you assume that a poster is "determining how good of a coach we have based on 5 second segments each games that go 'inside the huddle'" and then carry that agitation to another thread.
Quote from: mug644 on January 21, 2016, 03:43:14 PM
I read your comments, and hold fast to the idea that you overreacted prematurely. "Any observations are completely meaningless"? You might keep that in mind when you assume that a poster is "determining how good of a coach we have based on 5 second segments each games that go 'inside the huddle'" and then carry that agitation to another thread.
...says the guy who carried this topic into this thread. But carry on.
PS If you read my comments in the other thread then why are you claiming I never responded?
Draft express updated: Henry at #7. I think he was there last time also.
The fact that an 18-year-old kid of his size can shoot, pass, dribble, and run the floor pretty well is impressive. Now, he doesn't do any one of those things really well, but the potential is obviously there given his age.
All of those tools are impressive assuming, or so I think, that he has a legit paint game as most players his size do. But, Henry really doesn't have that yet--in fact, I would go as far to characterize him as soft in there unwilling to draw contact (non-offensively--yes, he's had a lot of bogus calls against him).
So what you have right now is an 18-year-old that has all of these tools, but hasn't shown that he excels in any one category. The potential is huge, don't get me wrong, but there's also a lot of uncertainty. He doesn't have that one part of his game that's refined, NBA-ready.
As an NBA scout, can you bank on development of all those tools over time? I say yes, because he really could become a special player if he develops all facets of his game accordingly. Is that upside worth a top 10 pick? I don't know.
Spoiler: it is because NBA scouts say so.
Also, despite Simmons this draft class is weak.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 26, 2016, 12:42:06 PM
Draft express updated: Henry at #7. I think he was there last time also.
Again, the NBA rookie scale with a fourth year option for pick number seven is 14.5 M.
The number ten pick is 11.6M.
Following the season, if Henry is told by pre-draft services he will be in top ten, I am sure he will depart.
Wojo and staff, please start looking for a PF.........
Quote from: damuts222 on January 26, 2016, 03:12:42 PM
Also, despite Simmons this draft class is weak.
And '17 is stronger, more reason for Henry to leave.
Henry is all but gone, money talks, people walk. 10-14 million guaranteed for 3 years see ya. The NBA is ruining the farm system by taking freshman that are not
even that good yet. Kevon Looney is a perfect example, not sure he will ever make it. He got $3 millon or so over 3 years. Uncle Sam takes 40%, family takes who
knows, friends need a few dollars and by 22 he is in Europe or the D league, almost broke. Hope that is not the case. Now 10-14 is 5-7, that you can live along time
on and the next contract if good, is Wes Mathews money or Jimmy Butler. Needs to improve his outside shot, much like DWade, became a shooter, at MU he was a
slasher.
Quote from: nyg on January 26, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Wojo and staff, please start looking for a PF.........
I looked at "247" top JUCO prospects for 2016. Nearly all of them are committed. One that isn't is Jabari Craig (6'10), who committed to USC last year but didn't qualify. Evidently MU was recruiting him then. Now it seems like only East Carolina is looking at him.
The list: http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=JuniorCollege
MU had offered Willis (#9 on list) & Rivers (#14 on list)
Quote from: HoopsterBC on January 26, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
Henry is all but gone, money talks, people walk. 10-14 million guaranteed for 3 years see ya. The NBA is ruining the farm system by taking freshman that are not
even that good yet. Kevon Looney is a perfect example, not sure he will ever make it. He got $3 millon or so over 3 years. Uncle Sam takes 40%, family takes who
knows, friends need a few dollars and by 22 he is in Europe or the D league, almost broke. Hope that is not the case. Now 10-14 is 5-7, that you can live along time
on and the next contract if good, is Wes Mathews money or Jimmy Butler. Needs to improve his outside shot, much like DWade, became a shooter, at MU he was a
slasher.
This is hard to follow.
The comparison to Kevin Love raises a few interesting points.
Kevin Love — UCLA (measurements from 2008 NBA pre-draft camp)
6'9.5" with shoes 255 lbs 6'11.25" wingspan 8'10" standing reach
29.6 mpg 17.5 ppg 10.6 rpg 1.9 apg 0.7 spg 1.4 bpg, .559 FG%, .354 3PT%
Henry Ellenson — Marquette (measurements from 2014 USA Basketball)
6'10" with shoes 228 lbs 7'1.5" wingspan 9'0" standing reach
32.5 mpg, 15.7 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 2.1 apg, 0.9 spg, 1.6 bpg, .428 FG%, .246 3PT%
The numbers are surprisingly close overall, with a few differences standing out.
1. Surprised to see that Ellenson is slightly taller and has a bigger wingspan and standing reach. Not a huge difference, but a positive for Henry.
2. If you look at photos of Love at the time, he was noticeably heavier than Henry is now. Today, Love is at almost the exact same weight but has clearly gained muscle and reduced his body fat.
3. Kevin's offensive game was further along as a freshman than Henry's, as evidenced by the higher scoring average and shooting percentages. Probably helps that he also played on an absolutely loaded Final Four team (including Russell Westbrook, Darren Collison and Luc Richard Mbah a Moute).
Love was drafted #5 by Minnesota, one spot behind his teammate Westbrook. (Imagine having two U.S. Olympians on the same college roster.) Obviously, scouting isn't just about numbers. But they do help fill in the picture.
Quote from: HoopsterBC on January 26, 2016, 03:44:29 PM
The NBA is ruining the farm system by taking freshman that are not even that good yet.
NBA honchos are on the record as wanting to bolster the farm system by forcing kids to do two years of college -- even the next LeBron or the next Kobe or the next Durant. They would love to keep them as indentured servants another year.
The NBA players union, understandably, is against this. They want players earning as early as possible and getting to that second contract as early as possible because it lifts pay throughout their constituency.
Neither side really has the interest of the athlete's physical, mental and emotional development in mind. At least the NBAPA has the athlete's financial development in mind.
Regardless, it's a collectively bargained item. The NBA cannot unilaterally enact a rule forcing athletes to remain in college for a second year.
Quote from: Marcus92 on January 26, 2016, 04:23:22 PM
The comparison to Kevin Love raises a few interesting points.
Kevin Love — UCLA (measurements from 2008 NBA pre-draft camp)
6'9.5" with shoes 255 lbs 6'11.25" wingspan 8'10" standing reach
29.6 mpg 17.5 ppg 10.6 rpg 1.9 apg 0.7 spg 1.4 bpg, .559 FG%, .354 3PT%
Henry Ellenson — Marquette (measurements from 2014 USA Basketball)
6'10" with shoes 228 lbs 7'1.5" wingspan 9'0" standing reach
32.5 mpg, 15.7 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 2.1 apg, 0.9 spg, 1.6 bpg, .428 FG%, .246 3PT%
The numbers are surprisingly close overall, with a few differences standing out.
Per game averages and FG% aren't things I normally look at.. consider digging deeper:
Love shot 59.5% eFG%. Henry is at 45.8%.
Only 20% of Love's FGA's were 3's. Henry is at 25%.
2FG% - and this is important - 61.1% for Kevin; 48.7% for Henry.
Not close.
Love's rebounding %'s were elite on both sides of the glass.. Henry's very good on the d-glass, offensively he's not as good. (15.4% to 8.1% OR adv to Kevin; 28.5% to 23.6% DR adv to Kevin).
Getting to the line.. Kevin drew fouls at a 25%+ higher clip.
ORtg.. Kevin 127 on 28% usage.
Henry... 99 on 26%.
Really, not all that close.
Quote from: WarriorPride68 on January 26, 2016, 03:46:12 PM
I looked at "247" top JUCO prospects for 2016. Nearly all of them are committed. One that isn't is Jabari Craig (6'10), who committed to USC last year but didn't qualify. Evidently MU was recruiting him then. Now it seems like only East Carolina is looking at him.
The list: http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Basketball/CompositeRecruitRankings?InstitutionGroup=JuniorCollege
MU had offered Willis (#9 on list) & Rivers (#14 on list)
As expected, no interest from MU anymore
"Pear River CC forward, Jabari Craig, will visit Cal St Northridge this weekend. He will then decide btwn Northridge, LMU, ECU & Miami (OH)"
Quote from: nyg on January 26, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Again, the NBA rookie scale with a fourth year option for pick number seven is 14.5 M.
The number ten pick is 11.6M.
Following the season, if Henry is told by pre-draft services he will be in top ten, I am sure he will depart.
Wojo and staff, please start looking for a PF.........
This is a problem with a possible 1 and done. Until it's official he's gone it's tough to recruit someone at Henry's position - and if he decides to leave there will be almost nobody who's any good still available.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2016, 02:47:55 PM
This is a problem with a possible 1 and done. Until it's official he's gone it's tough to recruit someone at Henry's position - and if he decides to leave there will be almost nobody who's any good still available.
Few freshmen but lots of grad transfers
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 28, 2016, 03:26:25 PM
Few freshmen but lots of grad transfers
So far Wojo has recruited High school kids well but he's been shut out on Jucos and grad transfers.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2016, 03:29:00 PM
So far Wojo has recruited High school kids well but he's been shut out on Jucos and grad transfers.
Matt Carlino, hello
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2016, 03:29:00 PM
So far Wojo has recruited High school kids well but he's been shut out on Jucos and grad transfers.
Car3no?
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 28, 2016, 03:33:48 PM
Car3no?
My mistake - but that was a bit of a special circumstance. Brian Brunkhorst is Matt's uncle.
This is a good thread about Henry and NBA$$.
I used to think that he would stay because of Wally and strong family motives (that are certainly there).
But the payday numbers plus the draft rank plus the week 2016 class. Its Smart to go with those projections. And the family will be smart.
What do you think about Stone...I've always thought him 1-n-done...where is he projected?
Most of the mock drafts have Stone in the 10 thru 16 range.
Which is generally the second highest ranked true center in the draft. Behind the big Austrian kid at Utah. Tells something about where the pro game has been headed with the need for 6-10+ guys to stretch the floor.
On the broadcast last night, Bardo did a very nice job of shooting down those who keep saying Henry isn't ready. And his intro into his comments was something like, "People who watch Henry Ellenson might think he's not ready for the NBA, so why is there all this talk about him being a lottery pick?"
Bardo said it isn't necessary for Henry -- or anybody in his position -- to be NBA-ready. Especially defensively, NBA GMs fully expect these players to be nowhere near NBA-ready. Bardo said it's all about the size, the skill set and the potential, and NBA GMs like what they see of somebody who can be developed long-term.
Anybody with any understanding of how this all works knows Bardo -- a long-time observer, a real good college player and a guy who had an NBA cup of coffee -- is absolutely correct.
^ one just has to look to the Bucks to see a club drafting for future development
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 28, 2016, 03:42:04 PM
My mistake - but that was a bit of a special circumstance. Brian Brinkhorst is Matt's uncle.
Special circumstance or not, Wojo convinced him to spend his last few months in college with the basement squad of the Big East. Had to take some recruiting talents to do that.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 29, 2016, 10:33:19 AM
Special circumstance or not, Wojo convinced him to spend his last few months in college with the basement squad of the Big East. Had to take some recruiting talents to do that.
Absolutely concede that. But getting Matt only made a really, really bad team a really bad team.
This year Damian Lee would have made us an NCAA team and others we missed on would have given us at least a shot. Getting any of them was, IMO, much more important to the program and a better measuring stick of Wojo's heft with that type of recruit.
Golden
Landing Matt was a special case deal. It was win-win for both parties and Matt's family has a 50 year history with program. Pretty much a slam dunk recruit for Wojo and decision for Matt.
Quote from: Goose on January 29, 2016, 11:29:58 AM
Golden
Landing Matt was a special case deal. It was win-win for both parties and Matt's family has a 50 year history with program. Pretty much a slam dunk recruit for Wojo and decision for Matt.
Even with the history, it was a slam dunk decision to join a bottom feeder? Ambitious crew they're running.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 29, 2016, 10:57:41 AM
Absolutely concede that. But getting Matt only made a really, really bad team a really bad team.
This year Damian Lee would have made us an NCAA team and others we missed on would have given us at least a shot. Getting any of them was, IMO, much more important to the program and a better measuring stick of Wojo's heft with that type of recruit.
So disappointing to have a heft-less coach.
Quote from: MU82 on January 29, 2016, 04:53:06 PM
So disappointing to have a heft-less coach.
Few things sadder.
Quote from: MU82 on January 28, 2016, 11:06:22 PM
On the broadcast last night, Bardo did a very nice job of shooting down those who keep saying Henry isn't ready. And his intro into his comments was something like, "People who watch Henry Ellenson might think he's not ready for the NBA, so why is there all this talk about him being a lottery pick?"
Bardo said it isn't necessary for Henry -- or anybody in his position -- to be NBA-ready. Especially defensively, NBA GMs fully expect these players to be nowhere near NBA-ready. Bardo said it's all about the size, the skill set and the potential, and NBA GMs like what they see of somebody who can be developed long-term.
Anybody with any understanding of how this all works knows Bardo -- a long-time observer, a real good college player and a guy who had an NBA cup of coffee -- is absolutely correct.
I said a month or so ago that HE will be a lottery pick regardless if he steps on the college court again. Just the way it is. Is he NBA ready? Absolutely not. Does that matter in the least?apparently not.
If a GM passes up Buddy Hield on his way to get HE and keeps his job--God bless them.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 29, 2016, 10:57:41 AM
Absolutely concede that. But getting Matt only made a really, really bad team a really bad team.
This year Damian Lee would have made us an NCAA team and others we missed on would have given us at least a shot. Getting any of them was, IMO, much more important to the program and a better measuring stick of Wojo's heft with that type of recruit.
Worth considering the circumstances in the two we aggressively pursued. Both Damion Lee and Shonn Miller signed with borderline blue-blood programs and coaches that have won national titles in the past 3 years (before this season). It sucks losing out on guys that could have been true difference makers for this season, but it's no surprise Wojo (with one year and a losing record) doesn't have the heft of Rick Pitino or Kevin Ollie just yet considering their accomplishments.
It will be interesting to see what happens this offseason, especially if Henry leaves. Clearly it would leave a big hole that any senior PF worth his salt would have the chance to fill. Will Wojo be able to lure someone with a bit more experienced team and a gaping hole where the guy preceding you just left in the lottery? I'd say that would be a better test of his mettle.