Interesting article in the paper today. Wil pass by Chicago in 8 to 10 years. I remember when LA passed Chicago when I was a kid.
http://news.yahoo.com/americas-city-rankings-set-texas-sized-shake-houston-130507316.html
As a Chicagoan this doesn't surprise me at all with lower cost of living, better weather, and better employment opportunities.
Is Austin still Texas' fastest growing city?
I remember when we passed Detroit and Philly on this list. Yes, Detroit was once a top 5 city!
There will be those that note city population vs Metro area (in which Chicago will still lead) ....but then again, ask someone from cowtown Fort Worth how much he considers himself from snooty Dallas. lol . Dallas grabbed Ft Worth to its metro area mainly to compete with arch rival, but bigger Houston.
What is good in this article is the referenced diversity that Houston thrives on:..."Apart from domestic migration, about one in five Houstonians is foreign born and more than 90 languages are spoken in the city...."
It also notes our strange anomoly...No Zoning. We built homes almost everywhere by subdivisions (which enforce their own use/appearance restrictions by HOA's) and commercial development has been along main thoroughfares. Aside from Downtown, and Uptown (Galleria), we have about 8-10 other major office areas. The geographic space of Houston's sprawl is about 70 miles EW and 50 miles NS .
Most come to Houston for a great job, then find a large affordable house in a great neighborhood, located in a good school district (N,NW,W,SW), and enjoy going out to eat in one of the most restaurant crazy towns on earth. To me its just a great place to live.
See:
http://www.businessinsider.com/houston-best-city-in-america-2014-6?op=1
BTW, it may be early, but this is the first of my many Houston promos leading up to the Final Four in H-Town --2016
Weather sucks ass doe, ai na?
The handful of times I have been to Houston, I have found it much nicer than I thought it would be. The week I spent there in July was hellish.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on September 13, 2015, 08:33:54 PM
Weather sucks ass doe, ai na?
Sure does...lol...we suffer through lush subtropical warm weather (70s at night; 80-90s daytime) for about 10 months a year.
Its like a Wisconsin summertime for ten months, and Wisc.'s "October" weather during our "chilly" December-January winter.
The regular rain leaves foliage/lawns very green and lush, but I do need a Mexmow every week.
We have no snow, no Ice, no shovelling, no rust on cars, no winter coats, etc...so I guess on those points,... I miss your weather....NOT!!
OK, I'll move back to Chicago to keep this from happening!
Quote from: houwarrior on September 13, 2015, 08:31:49 PM
I remember when we passed Detroit and Philly on this list. Yes, Detroit was once a top 5 city!
There will be those that note city population vs Metro area (in which Chicago will still lead) ....but then again, ask someone from cowtown Fort Worth how much he considers himself from snooty Dallas. lol . Dallas grabbed Ft Worth to its metro area mainly to compete with arch rival, but bigger Houston.
What is good in this article is the referenced diversity that Houston thrives on:..."Apart from domestic migration, about one in five Houstonians is foreign born and more than 90 languages are spoken in the city...."
It also notes our strange anomoly...No Zoning. We built homes almost everywhere by subdivisions (which enforce their own use/appearance restrictions by HOA's) and commercial development has been along main thoroughfares. Aside from Downtown, and Uptown (Galleria), we have about 8-10 other major office areas. The geographic space of Houston's sprawl is about 70 miles EW and 50 miles NS .
Most come to Houston for a great job, then find a large affordable house in a great neighborhood, located in a good school district (N,NW,W,SW), and enjoy going out to eat in one of the most restaurant crazy towns on earth. To me its just a great place to live.
See:
http://www.businessinsider.com/houston-best-city-in-america-2014-6?op=1
BTW, it may be early, but this is the first of my many Houston promos leading up to the Final Four in H-Town --2016
Funny thing is, I doubt that 25% of the country knows Houston is the 4th largest city in this country. 25% might actually be high.
We should have a beer sometime Houston, I get down there a few times a year as my bro-in-law lives in Magnolia.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 13, 2015, 10:55:57 PM
Funny thing is, I doubt that 25% of the country knows Houston is the 4th largest city in this country. 25% might actually be high.
We should have a beer sometime Houston, I get down there a few times a year as my bro-in-law lives in Magnolia.
These 25% join the same group that actually knows where MU is located, as...
..based on the questions I get... about 75% of folks would guess Marquette Univ. is located in Michigan. The "smart" ones even guess that its in the UP.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 13, 2015, 10:55:57 PM
Funny thing is, I doubt that 25% of the country knows Houston is the 4th largest city in this country. 25% might actually be high.
We should have a beer sometime Houston, I get down there a few times a year as my bro-in-law lives in Magnolia.
I thought Dallas was 4th to he honest.
There's loads of spots Chicago could take in if the burbs would be interested in joining. Cicero, Berwyn, Burbank, Dillon, robins, Harvey, heck even parts of oak park and Evanston were up for debate years ago. Houston is newer and doesn't need to deal with the same metro problems of expanding that Chicago does. Even if it surpasses it Chicago is still a much greater city and any architecture nerd will agree (yours truly)
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 14, 2015, 01:33:00 AM
I thought Dallas was 4th to he honest.
Dallas is the fourth biggest MSA (city proper plus the burbs). It will be a while before the Houston MSA surpasses the Dallas MSA in population.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 14, 2015, 02:04:46 AM
There's loads of spots Chicago could take in if the burbs would be interested in joining. Cicero, Berwyn, Burbank, Dillon, robins, Harvey, heck even parts of oak park and Evanston were up for debate years ago. Houston is newer and doesn't need to deal with the same metro problems of expanding that Chicago does. Even if it surpasses it Chicago is still a much greater city and any architecture nerd will agree (yours truly)
Chicago is what Chicago is. Houston is what Houston is. "Much greater city" is simply a subjective opinion and nothing more.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 13, 2015, 10:55:57 PM
We should have a beer sometime Houston, I get down there a few times a year as my bro-in-law lives in Magnolia.
Does Houston have a back yard?
Quote from: houwarrior on September 13, 2015, 09:00:58 PM
Sure does...lol...we suffer through lush subtropical warm weather (70s at night; 80-90s daytime) for about 10 months a year.
Its like a Wisconsin summertime for ten months, and Wisc.'s "October" weather during our "chilly" December-January winter.
The regular rain leaves foliage/lawns very green and lush, but I do need a Mexmow every week.
We have no snow, no Ice, no shovelling, no rust on cars, no winter coats, etc...so I guess on those points,... I miss your weather....NOT!!
I'll rest more comfortably at night knowing that a storm brewing over Lake Michigan doesn't have the "wrath-of-God" potential that our neighbors along the Gulf coast experience every few years.
No ice? The last time I was in Houston, the entire city was shut down due to ice.
Also, hate Houston's development. Urban sprawl at it's worst. A city center with four different Napervilles around it.
Quote from: PTM on September 14, 2015, 11:57:28 AM
No ice? The last time I was in Houston, the entire city was shut down due to ice.
Also, hate Houston's development. Urban sprawl at it's worst. A city center with four different Napervilles around it.
Nice point about urban sprawl at its worst. It's density is 3,600/sq mi. That's really spread out in fact that's more spread out than Naperville's 4,000/sq mi.
Quote from: PTM on September 14, 2015, 11:57:28 AM
No ice? The last time I was in Houston, the entire city was shut down due to ice.
Also, hate Houston's development. Urban sprawl at it's worst. A city center with four different Napervilles around it.
I was so disappointed by a visit to Houston for work two years ago.
Disjointed urban sprawl is being kind. Lack of zoning was bizarre.
The only place I saw air pollution worse than Houston was in China and that includes comparing it to LA & Mexico City.
For a city that size they need to move a little quicker on implementing the mass transit besides the one short rail line. Took me 50+ minutes to get to Minute Maid Park from the hotel and took me like 12-15 minutes after the game to get back.
And don't get me started on those giant heads of "Great Americans" where the highway enters the city.
I did like the hot Florida-like weather in September. I always like that.
I also liked Minute Maid Park. Since the Astros sucked bad in 2013 it was cool to walk up to the gate and spend $20 for ticket, one row from the field that also got me a soda & hot dog with the ticket.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on September 14, 2015, 01:17:19 PM
I was so disappointed by a visit to Houston for work two years ago.
Disjointed urban sprawl is being kind. Lack of zoning was bizarre.
The only place I saw air pollution worse than Houston was in China and that includes comparing it to LA & Mexico City.
For a city that size they need to move a little quicker on implementing the mass transit besides the one short rail line. Took me 50+ minutes to get to Minute Maid Park from the hotel and took me like 12-15 minutes after the game to get back.
And don't get me started on those giant heads of "Great Americans" where the highway enters the city.
I did like the hot Florida-like weather in September. I always like that.
I also liked Minute Maid Park. Since the Astros sucked bad in 2013 it was cool to walk up to the gate and spend $20 for ticket, one row from the field that also got me a soda & hot dog with the ticket.
I've never been to Houston but I just don't like cities that are developed this way. They're just a financial downtown with skyscrapers surrounded by miles and miles of generic looking sprawling suburban neighborhoods that are still considered to be in "the city". Urban and dynamic neighborhoods are to me what give a city it's character. Give me a real urban city like NY, Boston, or Chicago over Places like Houston, Phoenix, and Dallas all day.
This being said I really hope to be in Houston this spring for some BBQ and a Marquette national championship
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
I've never been to Houston but I just don't like cities that are developed this way. They're just a financial downtown with skyscrapers surrounded by miles and miles of generic looking sprawling suburban neighborhoods that are still considered to be in "the city". Urban and dynamic neighborhoods are to me what give a city it's character. Give me a real urban city like NY, Boston, or Chicago over Places like Houston, Phoenix, and Dallas all day.
This being said I really hope to be in Houston this spring for some BBQ and a Marquette national championship
Keep in mind the "cities" you cited are ones that were established well before Henry Ford was cranking his wares off the line
en masse. Places like Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas (and the like) are still teenagers, relatively speaking, which means they were all developed from the pretext that every household had an automobile.
In other words, urban sprawl wasn't a choice for these cities, it was a response.
Quote from: Benny B on September 14, 2015, 02:08:59 PM
Keep in mind the "cities" you cited are ones that were established well before Henry Ford was cranking his wares off the line en masse. Places like Houston, Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas (and the like) are still teenagers, relatively speaking, which means they were all developed from the pretext that every household had an automobile.
In other words, urban sprawl wasn't a choice for these cities, it was a response.
Of course, bostons current city streets were the results of cow paths way back in the day. All cities are the way they are for all kinds of different reasons. I just strongly prefer the real urban ones. Henry ford changed the way we live drastically. As did Eisenhower by developing our interstate highway system. For better or for worse, it just depends on who you ask
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 02:20:56 PM
Of course, bostons current city streets were the results of cow paths way back in the day. All cities are the way they are for all kinds of different reasons. I just strongly prefer the real urban ones. Henry ford changed the way we live drastically. As did Eisenhower by developing our interstate highway system. For better or for worse, it just depends on who you ask
Makes you really appreciate what Burnham did. I can name every major east west street from Howard all the way to downtown. Really an incredible layout and grid.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 14, 2015, 02:25:14 PM
Makes you really appreciate what Burnham did. I can name every major east west street from Howard all the way to downtown. Really an incredible layout and grid.
Chicago is unique because they essentially got a mulligan. The city developed at an extreme rate in the 19th century then obviously burnt down and they got to see what was the best way to develop an American city by learning from their own mistakes and by looking at what did and didn't work for other American cities in regards to development.
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 02:31:08 PM
Chicago is unique because they essentially got a mulligan. The city developed at an extreme rate in the 19th century then obviously burnt down and they got to see what was the best way to develop an American city by learning from their own mistakes and by looking at what did and didn't work for other American cities in regards to development.
I don't know... burning down Houston seems a bit drastic. Not to mention, you know, the logistics of having to do so with all that urban sprawl and stuff.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 14, 2015, 02:25:14 PM
Makes you really appreciate what Burnham did. I can name every major east west street from Howard all the way to downtown. Really an incredible layout and grid.
Burnham yes but the others too, Louis Sullivan, Frank Lloyd Wright, Adler and more. All these "teenager cities" are just cookie cutters. It's like putting any barrington or naperville subdivision around a city center. And even the sky scrappers have no character to them.
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 02:31:08 PM
Chicago is unique because they essentially got a mulligan. The city developed at an extreme rate in the 19th century then obviously burnt down and they got to see what was the best way to develop an American city by learning from their own mistakes and by looking at what did and didn't work for other American cities in regards to development.
See Chicago's the best of both worlds a touch of modern thought with the culture of the older east coast cities.
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 02:31:08 PM
Chicago is unique because they essentially got a mulligan. The city developed at an extreme rate in the 19th century then obviously burnt down and they got to see what was the best way to develop an American city by learning from their own mistakes and by looking at what did and didn't work for other American cities in regards to development.
True. The funny thing is that everything you read about the fire is that the city was built for a disaster like that. Wooden sidewalks with space underneath them, river was so polluted that the fire "jumped" over it. Really speaks to Chicagoans stubbornness to build the entire city again. I'm such a Chicago history nerd. Find the whole development of it so fascinating.
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 01:36:10 PM
I've never been to Houston but I just don't like cities that are developed this way. They're just a financial downtown with skyscrapers surrounded by miles and miles of generic looking sprawling suburban neighborhoods that are still considered to be in "the city". Urban and dynamic neighborhoods are to me what give a city it's character. Give me a real urban city like NY, Boston, or Chicago over Places like Houston, Phoenix, and Dallas all day.
This being said I really hope to be in Houston this spring for some BBQ and a Marquette national championship
I've never been to Fargo, but I saw the movie and I dont like cold wintery towns with all those bars and excons hatching kidnap plots. lol
Your description of cities with ...."just a financial downtown with skyscrapers surrounded by miles and miles of generic looking sprawling suburban neighborhoods that are still considered to be in "the city". ..."
demonstrates your lack of actually having been to H-town. In March, during the final four, I will take on an in person tour of Houston; then you can repost your actual experience here, and it will be an opinion of substance.
Quote from: houwarrior on September 14, 2015, 05:24:02 PM
I've never been to Fargo, but I saw the movie and I dont like cold wintery towns with all those bars and excons hatching kidnap plots. lol
Your description of cities with ...."just a financial downtown with skyscrapers surrounded by miles and miles of generic looking sprawling suburban neighborhoods that are still considered to be in "the city". ..."
demonstrates your lack of actually having been to H-town. In March, during the final four, I will take on an in person tour of Houston; then you can repost your actual experience here, and it will be an opinion of substance.
That would be awesome. I love visiting, learning about, and experiencing new cities and their cultures. Good luck trying to convince me it's better than Boston though lol
Quote from: Eldon on September 14, 2015, 07:18:51 AM
Dallas is the fourth biggest MSA (city proper plus the burbs). It will be a while before the Houston MSA surpasses the Dallas MSA in population.
Dallas (assuming DFW)is 4th MSA (6.3 mil.)and Houston is 5th(6.1 mil). The Houston metro is the "city proper plus the burbs"; but Dallas metro reaches all the way over to grab Fort Worth (hence the term DFW).
Cowtown Fort Worth is NOT a suburb of snooty Dallas. Dallas and Fort Worth are the county seats of 2 different counties. If you have ever traveled west to Fort Worth you'll note the undeveloped expanses between these 2 completely separate metros. We think its cute how Dallas grabbed Fort Worth to compete in MSA size with Houston. It allowed them to add 2.1 million to their Metro, and to edge us by 200k
Believe it or not but the DFW Metro EW distance is just 10 miles short of the distance between Austin and San Antonio. Like Dallas and Fort Worth, Keep it Weird Austin and Salsa San Antonio are two very different cities. However, You wont ever hear about either of these two proposing to link their metros. lol
Your claim that..." It will be a while before the Houston MSA surpasses the Dallas MSA in population.", is wrong- we did this long ago. In an apples to apples MSA comparison, Dallas MSA is 4.2 mil. and Houston MSA is 6.1 mil.
Quote from: Celtic Truth on September 14, 2015, 05:39:17 PM
That would be awesome. I love visiting, learning about, and experiencing new cities and their cultures. Good luck trying to convince me it's better than Boston though lol
That is something I will never do. Houstonians are bred polite. It is unseemly and provincial to try to say one one city is better than another. Houston is simply different, and its been perfect...for me and my family.
I lived for some years in Europe (Madrid, Rome, etc). they found it laughable when Americans go on and on about their city history and architecture. This Yankee (in Spain...all americans are "yankees") shut up and recognized that all of this is relative. Every city I have ever seen has something neat about it..people are more similar than different, and no one is better than someone else....except for Carnies and the Dutch (Austin Powers-lol).
Quote from: PTM on September 14, 2015, 11:57:28 AM
No ice? The last time I was in Houston, the entire city was shut down due to ice.
Also, hate Houston's development. Urban sprawl at it's worst. A city center with four different Napervilles around it.
You are right, sir.
In Jan 2014 we had ice here in the same anomalous storm that shut down Atlanta (watching southerners freak out in such weather is a hoot) Here, it all melted the next day.
BTW, in fairness on Jan 3, 1985, birthdate of my daughter, it also dusted snow here, which melted by noon.
Houston gets the tail of huge arctic systems. When its -20 in N. Minn. we'll expect overnight frost here, on occasion.
Sorry you didn't get outside the Houston inner loop during your stay...there is a lot of Milwaukee, west of Marquette. lol
Houston is not a downtown, with four "Napervilles"; I hope you get a chance to experience it. We never will be Chicago, and Chicago will never be Houston...my guess is they both like it that way, and they respect the differences (at least we do- lol).
I am exhausted in my defenses of Houston.
It is a large, growing, dynamic city. Like all large cities, it has its warts and challenges. If you need it to feel better about your home, I am happy to apologize for mine, and to say your city is clearly better. What does that accomplish?
As...Each of you travelled here from cities that you know have their own warts and challenges ( of which you do not speak- lol).
Houston itself is made up totally of domestic and international people migrations. As our mayor said we are made up of "tolerant traditionalists". Our diversity mandates mutual acceptance. We make it work here, as best we can, and I trust your cities aspire to the same.
I simply cant bring myself to put down anything about your city to make me feel better about mine. Diversity mandates acceptance.
I like your city just fine--OK?
I went to Houston for the first time two months ago. I was both surprised and not surprised at how big of a city it was, if that makes sense. I went to a game at Minute Maid (I loved that place) and stayed in the medical district. It was interesting driving from the two, mainly because the city didn't stop. I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just a huge city.
One thing I love to do when going to a city I've never been to before is to try to read up on it, why it developed the way it did, important industries. I was fascinated about how/why NASA set up shop in Houston.
Quote from: houwarrior on September 14, 2015, 07:20:24 PM
I am exhausted in my defenses of Houston.
It is a large, growing, dynamic city. Like all large cities, it has its warts and challenges. If you need it to feel better about your home, I am happy to apologize for mine, and to say your city is clearly better. What does that accomplish?
As...Each of you travelled here from cities that you know have their own warts and challenges ( of which you do not speak- lol).
Houston itself is made up totally of domestic and international people migrations. As our mayor said we are made up of "tolerant traditionalists". Our diversity mandates mutual acceptance. We make it work here, as best we can, and I trust your cities aspire to the same.
I simply cant bring myself to put down anything about your city to make me feel better about mine. Diversity mandates acceptance.
I like your city just fine--OK?
So, the ice fishing kinda sucks there, ai na?
Quote from: houwarrior on September 14, 2015, 07:20:24 PM
I am exhausted in my defenses of Houston.
It is a large, growing, dynamic city. Like all large cities, it has its warts and challenges. If you need it to feel better about your home, I am happy to apologize for mine, and to say your city is clearly better. What does that accomplish?
As...Each of you travelled here from cities that you know have their own warts and challenges ( of which you do not speak- lol).
Houston itself is made up totally of domestic and international people migrations. As our mayor said we are made up of "tolerant traditionalists". Our diversity mandates mutual acceptance. We make it work here, as best we can, and I trust your cities aspire to the same.
I simply cant bring myself to put down anything about your city to make me feel better about mine. Diversity mandates acceptance.
I like your city just fine--OK?
Can a man get a decent bowl of chili down there? I mean, that real Green Bay kinda chili?
Quote from: keefe on September 14, 2015, 10:28:45 PM
Can a man get a decent bowl of chili down there? I mean, that real Green Bay kinda chili?
Houston's (world's largest) livestock show and rodeo kicks off its first weekend, every year with a two day bacchanal, the HL&R BBQ and Chili cookoff. There is some very serious competition among the 100 plus teams...someone is bound to make the chili you favor. It will be made with sirloin, and few if any beans. For Green Bay style, I guess you'd ask for extra cheese, and tell them to hold those darn fritos.
Quote from: MUDish on September 14, 2015, 09:51:51 PM
I was fascinated about how/why NASA set up shop in Houston.
Most folks thank LBJ. Rice Univ. and Humble oil (Exxon) arranged for the 1000 acre land donation in Clear Lake.
First, .... A set of requirements for the new site was drawn up and released to the Congress and general public. These included: access to water transport by large barges, a moderate climate, availability of all-weather commercial jet service, a well established industrial complex with supporting technical facilities and labor, close proximity to a culturally attractive community in the vicinity of an institution of higher education, a strong electric utility and water supply, at least 1000 acres of land, and certain specified cost parameters.
Second, Politics played its role in the choice:
Henry C. Dethloff wrote in the NASA-published history Suddenly Tomorrow Came: "Although the Houston site neatly fit the criteria required for the new center, Texas undoubtedly exerted an enormous political influence on such a decision. Lyndon B. Johnson was Vice President and head of the Space Council, Albert Thomas headed the House Appropriations Committee, Bob Casey and Olin E. Teague were members of the House Committee on Science and Astronautics, and Teague headed the Subcommittee on Manned Space Flight. Finally, Sam Rayburn was Speaker of the House of Representatives.
BTW in the Mid 80s, I was the first president of the Marquette Cub of Houston....and when we personally called and tracked down the MU alums in the area...I noticed a pattern. A large group were MU engineers who came to work at NASA in the 60's, then many were medical folks in the 70's, followed by full gamut of grads/majors who came here in the 80s. I am guessing the full gamut continued from the 80s to today. We have about 1000 MUers in the area today.
Chicago is getting Rahm'd and the city is paying for it.
Houston benefitted from Katrina. The families that moved there are staying and adding to the population.
FWIW, I had a friend from the Midwest move to Houston and while he loved a fresh start, he hated it there. And in my head I was like "knew it, Houston kind of sucks" (using a small sample set of my own, of course). Within 3 months of being back, he missed it terribly and was looking for ways to move back, and this was summer so its not just because of cold weather or anything. Its a massive city, I can only imagine how much there is to offer. Need to head back if he ends up moving back.
I've only been to Houston twice, but I really didn't like it. It seemed like a big suburb over all, with a crappy downtown. I like a City to be more compact.
I also don't like Wisconsin winters, but Houston summers would be just about as unbearable for me. I could see living in Houston from about November to April, but that would be about it. But, if I were going to do that, there many, many places I'd go to before even thinking about Houston.
I'd have to take a pass on Houston and would avoid having to live there. But, I understand that is just me and to each their own. I also understand that I have a very limited sample of what it would be like to live in Houston.
Kind of amusing to find this thread a few slots above the U.S. News ranking discussion. Different tune, same melody: personal fit > empirical ranking.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 14, 2015, 02:36:52 PM
See Chicago's the best of both worlds a touch of modern thought with the culture of the older east coast cities.
The late Richard Jeni on how Chicago came to be. A bunch of guys were sitting around in New York and one said, "You know, I'm really enjoying all the crime and poverty, but it's just not cold enough!"
Quote from: houwarrior on September 15, 2015, 12:07:02 AM
Houston's (world's largest) livestock show and rodeo kicks off its first weekend, every year with a two day bacchanal, the HL&R BBQ and Chili cookoff. There is some very serious competition among the 100 plus teams...someone is bound to make the chili you favor. It will be made with sirloin, and few if any beans. For Green Bay style, I guess you'd ask for extra cheese, and tell them to hold those darn fritos.
I was funnin' ya Houston.
Actually, I have had chili in Houston - sirloin with nary a bean on premise - and it was outstanding.
Frankly, I have never had chili with pasta. It just seems...wrong.
Quote from: CTWarrior on September 15, 2015, 04:20:47 PM
The late Richard Jeni on how Chicago came to be. A bunch of guys were sitting around in New York and one said, "You know, I'm really enjoying all the crime and poverty, but it's just not cold enough!"
Yeah, Chicago gets a lot of love, but people ignore some pretty big problems. Yeah, the grid and architecture are great. So are the museums, food, music and more. But it is also crooked, crime riddled, over congested, expensive, poorly governed, segregated and broke.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 16, 2015, 05:19:45 PM
Yeah, Chicago gets a lot of love, but people ignore some pretty big problems. Yeah, the grid and architecture are great. So are the museums, food, music and more. But it is also crooked, crime riddled, over congested, expensive, poorly governed, segregated and broke.
Its not expensive compared to other cities its size. Coming from Milwaukee or a small city sure, but I know people who move back to Chicago cause they've gotten sick of the price of living elsewhere. (NY, LA, DC, SF, etc)
As for crime riddled and segregated, unfortunately they go hand in hand. I've lived in the city for 7 years and went to a lot of neighborhoods at all hours of the day and never felt unsafe. Most of the crime you read about in Chicago is confined to a few really tragic areas where most people never find themselves. And segregated? If you look at the heat maps for the most segregated cities in the US, most of them are in the Midwest. Including places like Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, and St Louis.
Quote from: JWags85 on September 16, 2015, 05:26:31 PM
Its not expensive compared to other cities its size. Coming from Milwaukee or a small city sure, but I know people who move back to Chicago cause they've gotten sick of the price of living elsewhere. (NY, LA, DC, SF, etc)
As for crime riddled and segregated, unfortunately they go hand in hand. I've lived in the city for 7 years and went to a lot of neighborhoods at all hours of the day and never felt unsafe. Most of the crime you read about in Chicago is confined to a few really tragic areas where most people never find themselves. And segregated? If you look at the heat maps for the most segregated cities in the US, most of them are in the Midwest. Including places like Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, and St Louis.
That doens't really excuse it though, does it? I love Chicago. But it is just that people ignore a lot of problems, and in terms of expensive, you are right about that, I should have said, grossly over taxed.
I lived in Houston from 1972-76, the last three years as a "newlywed". I'm sure much has changed in 40 years but some things apparently haven't - 6 months of hot, humid weather, a lack of public transportation, no zoning, affordable (and nice) housing, etc.. I liked the weather but the humidity was a bit much for my wife. Also lived in Dallas for a short time and much preferred Houston. Presently have a daughter, son in law and baby granddaughter in Austin and it's my favorite southwestern city.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 16, 2015, 05:35:00 PM
That doens't really excuse it though, does it? I love Chicago. But it is just that people ignore a lot of problems, and in terms of expensive, you are right about that, I should have said, grossly over taxed.
It doesn't excuse the city overall for crime, but it shouldn't effect you unless you planned on living on the west side or in the non Mt Greenwood, Hyde Park, or Beverly areas of the south side. Every big city has crime issues, Chicago is almost at an advantage because it is easier to have street smarts with it's clearly defined borders of bad neighborhoods.
Regarding segregation you have to take into account that it's not entirely the city's fault (at least in Chicago) Yes there was white flight from the west side when all the Germans moved out when the African Americans moved in. And prior to that same in Englewood. But Chicago's patchwork was originally designed for cultures to essentially make a mini version of their homelands. Mt Greenwood/Beverly was made for Irish Americans, Albany Park originally for Irish immigrants. China town was pretty clearly for the chinese, up by montrose and broadway there's tons of koreans but the architecture and such is all korean. Polish village is polish, Humboldt Park has a giant puerto rican flag over it. Those areas are designed for the cultures it's often misinterpreted as segregated.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 16, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
It doesn't excuse the city overall for crime, but it shouldn't effect you unless you planned on living on the west side or in the non Mt Greenwood, Hyde Park, or Beverly areas of the south side. Every big city has crime issues, Chicago is almost at an advantage because it is easier to have street smarts with it's clearly defined borders of bad neighborhoods.
Regarding segregation you have to take into account that it's not entirely the city's fault (at least in Chicago) Yes there was white flight from the west side when all the Germans moved out when the African Americans moved in. And prior to that same in Englewood. But Chicago's patchwork was originally designed for cultures to essentially make a mini version of their homelands. Mt Greenwood/Beverly was made for Irish Americans, Albany Park originally for Irish immigrants. China town was pretty clearly for the chinese, up by montrose and broadway there's tons of koreans but the architecture and such is all korean. Polish village is polish, Humboldt Park has a giant puerto rican flag over it. Those areas are designed for the cultures it's often misinterpreted as segregated.
Haha. OK so the crime doesn't bother you unless you happen to be one of those cultures that lives in the areas afflicted by crime. That, I am sure is very comforting to the people living in those communities. I didn't say that there was crime against tourists or anything. But there are major gang and drug trafficking problems that lead to a lot of crime. It is a major problem for the city, no matter where you live .
And Chicago is, statistically, the most segregated city in the US. So try to justify it all you want, that is the reality.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 16, 2015, 09:36:38 PM
Haha. OK so the crime doesn't bother you unless you happen to be one of those cultures that lives in the areas afflicted by crime. That, I am sure is very comforting to the people living in those communities. I didn't say that there was crime against tourists or anything. But there are major gang and drug trafficking problems that lead to a lot of crime. It is a major problem for the city, no matter where you live .
And Chicago is, statistically, the most segregated city in the US. So try to justify it all you want, that is the reality.
Actually I'm pretty sure Milwaukee is the most segregated city.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 16, 2015, 11:06:26 PM
Actually I'm pretty sure Milwaukee is the most segregated city.
If you're talking black vs. white, sure. But there are a lot of other cultures and ethnicities that don't fit into a "black" or "white" bucket... when all are considered, no place can compete with Chicago.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 16, 2015, 09:36:38 PM
Haha. OK so the crime doesn't bother you unless you happen to be one of those cultures that lives in the areas afflicted by crime. That, I am sure is very comforting to the people living in those communities. I didn't say that there was crime against tourists or anything. But there are major gang and drug trafficking problems that lead to a lot of crime. It is a major problem for the city, no matter where you live .
And Chicago is, statistically, the most segregated city in the US. So try to justify it all you want, that is the reality.
But this is my point segregated is to arbitrary it doesn't take into account why, only that there aren't many races in certain parts. That would only work in the areas that aren't traditionally built for cultures to feel at home. Like is chicago segregated because they're forcing a bunch of puerto ricans to live in humboldt park? Nope it looks segregated because all the puerto rican families wanted to live around each other in an area that felt like home. Is it Chicago's fault Ukranians went to Ukranian village? No they decided to live around each other. Yes some were actually segregated by white flight but most of it happened because people wanted to live by each other's cultures. Other cities are similar but don't get that rep, Boston for example, does anyone say it's segregated because the north end is all italian and southy is all irish? No because the italians chose to live by each other and the irish did the same.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2015, 06:17:17 PM
I lived in Houston from 1972-76, the last three years as a "newlywed". I'm sure much has changed in 40 years but some things apparently haven't - 6 months of hot, humid weather, a lack of public transportation, no zoning, affordable (and nice) housing, etc.. I liked the weather but the humidity was a bit much for my wife. Also lived in Dallas for a short time and much preferred Houston. Presently have a daughter, son in law and baby granddaughter in Austin and it's my favorite southwestern Texascity.
Bernstein
I agree that Austin is great. But the best city in the Southwest: Santa Fe.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 16, 2015, 11:56:33 PM
But this is my point segregated is to arbitrary it doesn't take into account why, only that there aren't many races in certain parts. That would only work in the areas that aren't traditionally built for cultures to feel at home. Like is chicago segregated because they're forcing a bunch of puerto ricans to live in humboldt park? Nope it looks segregated because all the puerto rican families wanted to live around each other in an area that felt like home. Is it Chicago's fault Ukranians went to Ukranian village? No they decided to live around each other. Yes some were actually segregated by white flight but most of it happened because people wanted to live by each other's cultures. Other cities are similar but don't get that rep, Boston for example, does anyone say it's segregated because the north end is all italian and southy is all irish? No because the italians chose to live by each other and the irish did the same.
Hahaha. No, Boston has an entirely different reputation. Haha, and funny you chose Boston. Really good example.
And I know when segregation comes up, my first thought is the Irish, Italians and Ukrainians. Maybe you should do a little more research on the really obvious segregation that exists before you excuse it all away.
And since it isn't really a problem in chicago, that must mean that the south side schools are just as good as the ones on the north side, right?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 16, 2015, 06:17:17 PM
Presently have a daughter, son in law and baby granddaughter in Austin and it's my favorite southwestern city.
Don't tell anyone from Texas that you consider Texas as part of the Southwest.
As far as Texicans are concerned, Texas isn't part of the South, West, Southwest, Mid-Southwest, South Central, West South Central... Texas is part of Texas.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 16, 2015, 11:06:26 PM
Actually I'm pretty sure Milwaukee is the most segregated city.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/05/04/chicago-is-the-most-segregated-city-in-america-analysis/
Quote from: keefe on September 17, 2015, 12:01:41 AM
Bernstein
I agree that Austin is great. But the best city in the Southwest: Santa Fe.
Should have said my favorite among the cities I know in the southwest. That would include All of Texas and Arizona. I don't know Santa Fe, but have a friend who loves it and plans to retire there.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on September 17, 2015, 09:06:06 AM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/05/04/chicago-is-the-most-segregated-city-in-america-analysis/
This link in the article is actually quite interesting.
http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/
Also interesting to see an exclave of deep blue sandwiched between oceans of green and orange (in Milwaukee)... wait a second.
This thread started out about Houston, then the Chicago folks appeared to defend Chicago and rip on the 'new' cities out west and then to defend Chicago against all-comers. Perhaps a bit of Chicago inferiority complex at work?
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 17, 2015, 08:12:54 AM
Hahaha. No, Boston has an entirely different reputation. Haha, and funny you chose Boston. Really good example.
And I know when segregation comes up, my first thought is the Irish, Italians and Ukrainians. Maybe you should do a little more research on the really obvious segregation that exists before you excuse it all away.
And since it isn't really a problem in chicago, that must mean that the south side schools are just as good as the ones on the north side, right?
Why's it funny I chose Boston does is have that same reputation and I'm unaware?
Yes I said certain areas like Edgewood Austin and more actually had real segregation. I'm not excusing it al away. I'm saying that chicagos blown wayyyy up in terms of segregation because here more so than elsewhere people choose to live around their cultures.
Now the education system is an entirely different talking point. That is segregated, however the big flagships are magnets anyways. Yes it's pretty BS that they're almost all north side schools but some of the best Young, LP, Lane Tech, Peyton, they don't have a neighborhood requirement. But with schools I'll give you is not over inflated and is an element of segregation that is totally on the city.
Maybe try typing boston reputation into google and see what comes up.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 17, 2015, 11:08:50 AM
Maybe try typing boston reputation into google and see what comes up.
So they're bad drivers and mean? That's what came up when I typed in Boston reputation.
All I'm saying is if Chicago suddenly was some magical blended up mess of cultures it wouldn't be cool to go to taylor street for italian, humboldt puerto rican or pilsen for mexican, China town wouldn't be a thing, neither would little korea, and so many more. Yes Lakeview, LP, Streeterville etc could use some minorities and austin, garfield park Englewood could use some majorities. But as far as the cultural neighborhoods go that "segregation" that everybody points to as being so big in Chicago, is the same thing that gives Chicago a unique spirit.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 17, 2015, 11:40:00 AM
So they're bad drivers and mean? That's what came up when I typed in Boston reputation.
All I'm saying is if Chicago suddenly was some magical blended up mess of cultures it wouldn't be cool to go to taylor street for italian, humboldt puerto rican or pilsen for mexican, China town wouldn't be a thing, neither would little korea, and so many more. Yes Lakeview, LP, Streeterville etc could use some minorities and austin, garfield park Englewood could use some majorities. But as far as the cultural neighborhoods go that "segregation" that everybody points to as being so big in Chicago, is the same thing that gives Chicago a unique spirit.
That's not the segregation they're referring to. Yikes.
I get what Bagpiping is saying. My initial post on the matter was more scoffing at what people traditionally rip on Chicago for, and how it doesn't really negatively impact life for most residents. I love when people from the coasts who have never been to Chicago think that its 80s Beirut and exceedingly dangerous.
That being said, there is the triumvirate of BS I fully acknowledge: the weather blows 75% of the time; the taxes are outrageous; and city politics are a mess that will likely never truly be fixed.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 17, 2015, 11:40:00 AM
So they're bad drivers and mean? That's what came up when I typed in Boston reputation.
All I'm saying is if Chicago suddenly was some magical blended up mess of cultures it wouldn't be cool to go to taylor street for italian, humboldt puerto rican or pilsen for mexican, China town wouldn't be a thing, neither would little korea, and so many more. Yes Lakeview, LP, Streeterville etc could use some minorities and austin, garfield park Englewood could use some majorities. But as far as the cultural neighborhoods go that "segregation" that everybody points to as being so big in Chicago, is the same thing that gives Chicago a unique spirit.
Well I just googled it myself, and on the top half of the first page of results there was something about boston being the most racist city in the nation. But maybe I am making that up.
Chicago also had some of the most extensive deed restrictions in the nation, mostly to keep African Americans out of certain parts of town. That to me, seems more like segregation than wow look at those cute little ethnic neighborhoods.
Quote from: Grayson Allen on September 17, 2015, 12:52:39 PM
That's not the segregation they're referring to. Yikes.
I know. Must be willful ignorance to even plead that case.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 17, 2015, 01:02:53 PM
Well I just googled it myself, and on the top half of the first page of results there was something about boston being the most racist city in the nation. But maybe I am making that up.
Chicago also had some of the most extensive deed restrictions in the nation, mostly to keep African Americans out of certain parts of town. That to me, seems more like segregation than wow look at those cute little ethnic neighborhoods.
And I'm not arguing the black vs white point. But referring to what what Benny said way up there about how Chicago segregates more than that and I'm arguing that point. Yes chicagos very segregated against African Americans, but with regards to beyond that it's just as much the cultures wanting to live together.
At the same time you have the segregated areas of the city, you also have places like Rogers Park which I grew up in. Along with Albany park, Logan Square, etc. Let's not pretend like Chicago is split into the northside is white and the South and Westside is black. I'm not going to deny that it can be segregated but there are some gross over exaggurations.
Quote from: ChitownSpaceForRent on September 17, 2015, 01:33:01 PM
At the same time you have the segregated areas of the city, you also have places like Rogers Park which I grew up in. Along with Albany park, Logan Square, etc. Let's not pretend like Chicago is split into the northside is white and the South and Westside is black. I'm not going to deny that it can be segregated but there are some gross over exaggurations.
Ok, well, statistically speaking, it is the most segregated city in the nation. So, you can deny it if you want, but that is what the demographics are.
It is a great city. There are very many world class things about Chicago. I guess I just don't understand all the people that need to make it some sort of Utopia. It clearly isn't. It is a big city. Big cities have problems inherent to them. You take the good with the bad, but all the greatest city in the world stuff goes too far for me. It is a great city. There are very many other great cities. Enjoy them for what they are, not everything needs to be the best in the world, and if you think it is best in the world, that is fine, but it is also ok if someone else thinks another city is better.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 17, 2015, 01:42:11 PM
Ok, well, statistically speaking, it is the most segregated city in the nation. So, you can deny it if you want, but that is what the demographics are.
It is a great city. There are very many world class things about Chicago. I guess I just don't understand all the people that need to make it some sort of Utopia. It clearly isn't. It is a big city. Big cities have problems inherent to them. You take the good with the bad, but all the greatest city in the world stuff goes too far for me. It is a great city. There are very many other great cities. Enjoy them for what they are, not everything needs to be the best in the world, and if you think it is best in the world, that is fine, but it is also ok if someone else thinks another city is better.
The bolded statement is why we're arguing. What is Chicago going to do? Force Chinese people and Korean people away from Chinatown and little Korea? Force Puerto Ricans and Mexicans away from humboldt and Pilsen? Those stats are built on a base line that doesn't work. White people have been moving into humboldt park and the Puerto Rican community is livid about it. Yes black vs white it is segregated and has problems that should be fixed but when you account for the fact that certain areas lack diversity out of choice well then it's not as segregated as people make it out to be.
Also Chicago is far from the greatest city in the world. Yes a great city but not everyone's going to be a fan. Being the most segregated in the country is a statistic thrown around by people who don't understand Chicago though.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 17, 2015, 02:23:22 PM
The bolded statement is why we're arguing. What is Chicago going to do? Force Chinese people and Korean people away from Chinatown and little Korea? Force Puerto Ricans and Mexicans away from humboldt and Pilsen? Those stats are built on a base line that doesn't work. White people have been moving into humboldt park and the Puerto Rican community is livid about it. Yes black vs white it is segregated and has problems that should be fixed but when you account for the fact that certain areas lack diversity out of choice well then it's not as segregated as people make it out to be.
Also Chicago is far from the greatest city in the world. Yes a great city but not everyone's going to be a fan. Being the most segregated in the country is a statistic thrown around by people who don't understand Chicago though.
Give it whatever connotation you want, but when a higher percentage of ethnicities and races live in areas containing low numbers of other ethnicities/races, that's segregation. Whether it's by choice or not, it's still segregation. Whether there were laws that set the stage decades ago, it's still segregation. Whether the Irish simply want to live closer to the hospital with the maternity ward that serves Guinness and Jameson or it's because their being oppressed by the WASPs, it's still segregation.
Nate Silver agrees... Chicago is the most segregated city in the country. Period.
Quote from: Benny B on September 17, 2015, 03:05:43 PM
Give it whatever connotation you want, but when a higher percentage of ethnicities and races live in areas containing low numbers of other ethnicities/races, that's segregation. Whether it's by choice or not, it's still segregation. Whether there were laws that set the stage decades ago, it's still segregation. Whether the Irish simply want to live closer to the hospital with the maternity ward that serves Guinness and Jameson or it's because their being oppressed by the WASPs, it's still segregation.
Nate Silver agrees... Chicago is the most segregated city in the country. Period.
Ok that's fine, but then it can't be used as a put down to Chicago. If a bunch of Irish people want to live by a hospital that serves jameson and guiness then that form of "segregation" isn't a problem and shouldn't be able to be used a put down for that neighborhood. Also please point me to this hospital I might brake my leg just to go there.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 17, 2015, 02:23:22 PM
The bolded statement is why we're arguing. What is Chicago going to do? Force Chinese people and Korean people away from Chinatown and little Korea? Force Puerto Ricans and Mexicans away from humboldt and Pilsen? Those stats are built on a base line that doesn't work. White people have been moving into humboldt park and the Puerto Rican community is livid about it. Yes black vs white it is segregated and has problems that should be fixed but when you account for the fact that certain areas lack diversity out of choice well then it's not as segregated as people make it out to be.
Also Chicago is far from the greatest city in the world. Yes a great city but not everyone's going to be a fan. Being the most segregated in the country is a statistic thrown around by people who don't understand Chicago though.
I think I understand Chicago just fine, thanks. And I seem to have a better handle on its history than some. Whatever the reason, the city is segregated. Whether it is ethnicities doing it by choice, or by regulation, for economic reasons, it is what it is. Other cities have the same ethnic neighborhoods, but still, Chicago is at the top for some reason. I don't think it is because people want to slander Chicago.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on September 17, 2015, 03:11:36 PM
Ok that's fine, but then it can't be used as a put down to Chicago. If a bunch of Irish people want to live by a hospital that serves jameson and guiness then that form of "segregation" isn't a problem and shouldn't be able to be used a put down for that neighborhood. Also please point me to this hospital I might brake my leg just to go there.
To hell if you think I'm telling you... that's
my beer and whisky, dammit.
Quote from: buckchuckler on September 17, 2015, 03:21:27 PM
I think I understand Chicago just fine, thanks.
You're welcome.