MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: keefe on June 01, 2015, 12:02:34 PM
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This has to be one of the most odd things out there...
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz
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This has to be one of the most odd things out there...
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-bruce-cover-annie-leibovitz
One of my daughters just had her first baby - Elizabeth Grace. Runner up in the name derby? Caitlyn Elizabeth. Hope her initial good luck is a harbinger of things to come.
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One of my daughters just had her first baby - Elizabeth Grace. Runner up in the name derby? Caitlyn Elizabeth. Hope her initial good luck is a harbinger of things to come.
Congrats, Lenny!
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One of my daughters just had her first baby - Elizabeth Grace. Runner up in the name derby? Caitlyn Elizabeth. Hope her initial good luck is a harbinger of things to come.
Congrats, Lenny!
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congratulations, but no lenna or lenni or leanai or... or something? heynie?
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Just flat out bizarre.
Now, we all know that there are gays who simply choose to be gay. Same with whatever Jenner is?
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Congrats, Lenny!
Thanks, Warrior, Crash and rocket!
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One of my daughters just had her first baby - Elizabeth Grace. Runner up in the name derby? Caitlyn Elizabeth. Hope her initial good luck is a harbinger of things to come.
The Scoop boomerang. Jenner to Lenny, congrats!
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congratulations, but no lenna or lenni or leanai or... or something? heynie?
Lennay Kekua is a pretty name.
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The Scoop boomerang. Jenner to Lenny, congrats!
Thanks, Doc.
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This guys need for attention is beyond mind boggling.
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People seem to be forgetting this took place just a few months ago.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2957919/Bruce-Jenner-facing-manslaughter-charges-new-video-shows-driver-rear-ended-woman-killed-Malibu-crash.html
I guess since he didn't kill anyone famous, it doesn't really count.
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People seem to be forgetting this took place just a few months ago.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2957919/Bruce-Jenner-facing-manslaughter-charges-new-video-shows-driver-rear-ended-woman-killed-Malibu-crash.html
I guess since he didn't kill anyone famous, it doesn't really count.
Damn. Women drivers. Oh, wait....
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Just flat out bizarre.
Now, we all know that there are gays who simply choose to be gay. Same with whatever Jenner is?
Does it logically follow that you believe there are straight people who simply choose to be straight?
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People seem to be forgetting this took place just a few months ago.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2957919/Bruce-Jenner-facing-manslaughter-charges-new-video-shows-driver-rear-ended-woman-killed-Malibu-crash.html
I guess since he didn't kill anyone famous, it doesn't really count.
Well, on the bright side, when he goes to the Men's Penitentiary in Chino or Soledad he will be very, very popular...
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Well, on the bright side, when he goes to the Men's Penitentiary in Chino or Soledad he will be very, very popular...
Well you got to admit, at least he had the decency to give himself a nice rack.
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This guys need for attention is beyond mind boggling.
Him and that entire family. I was betting on their 15 minutes being up years ago. Not sure why they all have such staying power among the general public.
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Buncha transphobia up in here. You guys are embarrassing sometimes.
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This is a blip due to her having once won a gold medal in the Olympics and apparently gotten some notoriety at the time out of that victory, except she is connected to that family of disgusting parasitic fame harpies. I view this story as more of a commentary on how awful the Kardashians are and America's fascination with them than I do of a transgendered individual's transition.
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so he/she was/is a guy who didn't/did like women/men but now insists that he/she is a lesbian? ?-(
i'm a lesbian too ya know and i didn't go get a rack and a taco shell :o
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The thing that disturbs me most about this are the “celebrities’” gushing about how courageous he is. What a fooked up sense of values. The men and women in our military who put their ass on the line for these idiots are courageous. How about the kids or people battling cancer, or the single parent or police and firefighters and on and on. Those people are courageous. Not some attention whore who can afford to have his junk removed and change genders.
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The thing that disturbs me most about this are the “celebrities’” gushing about how courageous he is. What a fooked up sense of values. The men and women in our military who put their ass on the line for these idiots are courageous. How about the kids or people battling cancer, or the single parent or police and firefighters and on and on. Those people are courageous. Not some attention whore who can afford to have his junk removed and change genders.
Can't all of the above be courageous?
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Buncha transphobia up in here. You guys are embarrassing sometimes.
+1
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Buncha transphobia up in here. You guys are embarrassing sometimes.
Bullsh.t. Why the need to pose on the cover of Vanity Fair? Why the need for a reality series? This guy has children! It's pathetic and far from "courageous."
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Can't all of the above be courageous?
Sure, but there are different levels of courage. When is the last time you heard Rosie O'Donnell gush over our military? The level of praise this guy is getting isn't proportionate to what he did.
So who in your opinion is more deserving of the Arthur Ashe award given at the ESPYs Bruce Jenner or that girl who played in a college basketball game before she died of brain cancer. What a shame ESPN has to be a tool to get ratings by putting this guy on a pedestal.
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What's the name of Bruce's new reality series? "How to Go From Hero to Zero," ai na?
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Bullsh.t. Why the need to pose on the cover of Vanity Fair? Why the need for a reality series? This guy has children! It's pathetic and far from "courageous."
"Pathetic" is much more accurate than "courageous" when describing Jenner.
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The thing that disturbs me most about this are the “celebrities’” gushing about how courageous he is. What a fooked up sense of values. The men and women in our military who put their ass on the line for these idiots are courageous. How about the kids or people battling cancer, or the single parent or police and firefighters and on and on. Those people are courageous. Not some attention whore who can afford to have his junk removed and change genders.
No one said "she is the most courageous person ever" or "she is more courageous then a solider or a kid with cancer." Why are we supposed to have limits on what can be called courageous?
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Sure, but there are different levels of courage. When is the last time you heard Rosie O'Donnell gush over our military? The level of praise this guy is getting isn't proportionate to what he did.
So who in your opinion is more deserving of the Arthur Ashe award given at the ESPYs Bruce Jenner or that girl who played in a college basketball game before she died of brain cancer. What a shame ESPN has to be a tool to get ratings by putting this guy on a pedestal.
Your first mistake is caring about who gets an ESPY or what Rosie O'Donnell thinks (note: I have no idea whether or not Rosie has gushed over the military).
Degrees of courage? OK, sure. I'll buy that. But again, who cares? And who made you the arbiter of what other people should praise and what they shouldn't, and which courageous acts deserve acclaim and which don't?
The only thing that confuses me more here than why people care about the Kardashians and this story, is why people care about the fact people care about the Kardashians and this story.
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Your first mistake is caring about who gets an ESPY or what Rosie O'Donnell thinks (note: I have no idea whether or not Rosie has gushed over the military).
Degrees of courage? OK, sure. I'll buy that. But again, who cares? And who made you the arbiter of what other people should praise and what they shouldn't, and which courageous acts deserve acclaim and which don't?
The only thing that confuses me more here than why people care about the Kardashians and this story, is why people care about the fact people care about the Kardashians and this story.
Your first and last paragraphs are correct.
I am not claiming to be the arbiter of what people should praise. I am just saying it is disturbing to me and a disappointing commentary on our society. Praise away.
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You guys disgust me.
If all the former Bruce Jenner wanted was attention, there are plenty of ways to get just as much that would be a lot easier to accomplish. I was just as shocked as anyone else when it appeared that he was going in this direction. After all, when I was a kid, he was the epitome of manliness. But that doesn't mean he is not sincere about this.
Do you know anyone who is openly transgender? I have a friend who has a transgender son. He is in junior high now, and has insisted that he was a boy since he was a toddler, even though he was born with female parts. He literally has no friends. The girls shun him and the boys beat the crap out of him.
Walk a mile in his shoes and see if you still think Caitlyn Jenner is just an attention whore.
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You guys disgust me.
If all the former Bruce Jenner wanted was attention, there are plenty of ways to get just as much that would be a lot easier to accomplish. I was just as shocked as anyone else when it appeared that he was going in this direction. After all, when I was a kid, he was the epitome of manliness. But that doesn't mean he is not sincere about this.
Do you know anyone who is openly transgender? I have a friend who has a transgender son. He is in junior high now, and has insisted that he was a boy since he was a toddler, even though he was born with female parts. He literally has no friends. The girls shun him and the boys beat the crap out of him.
Walk a mile in his shoes and see if you still think Caitlyn Jenner is just an attention whore.
So obviously you HAVE walked a mile in his shoes and know his true feelings and intentions and if he is sincere.
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So obviously you HAVE walked a mile in his shoes and no his true feelings and intentions and if he is sincere.
What is your point?
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Photoshop is your friend, hey?
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You guys disgust me.
If all the former Bruce Jenner wanted was attention, there are plenty of ways to get just as much that would be a lot easier to accomplish. I was just as shocked as anyone else when it appeared that he was going in this direction. After all, when I was a kid, he was the epitome of manliness. But that doesn't mean he is not sincere about this.
Do you know anyone who is openly transgender? I have a friend who has a transgender son. He is in junior high now, and has insisted that he was a boy since he was a toddler, even though he was born with female parts. He literally has no friends. The girls shun him and the boys beat the crap out of him.
Walk a mile in his shoes and see if you still think Caitlyn Jenner is just an attention whore.
The first transgendered person I encountered was a female student at a private, Catholic school run by nuns. And the nuns were by far the most understanding and accepting group of people at the school. This was 20+ years ago.
Look, it is obviously easier for Caitlyn Jenner to come out this way in her circles, but it is exceedingly difficult for most people out there. It is a courageous act.
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So obviously you HAVE walked a mile in his shoes and no his true feelings and intentions and if he is sincere.
I struggle to find what is "insincere". You can have an opinion about how he's handling it, and the press coverage, but personal shots at his choice are absurd. People who think this is just an attention grab absolutely baffle me.
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Him and that entire family. I was betting on their 15 minutes being up years ago. Not sure why they all have such staying power among the general public.
Says more about the general public than it does about them.
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You guys disgust me.
If all the former Bruce Jenner wanted was attention, there are plenty of ways to get just as much that would be a lot easier to accomplish. I was just as shocked as anyone else when it appeared that he was going in this direction. After all, when I was a kid, he was the epitome of manliness. But that doesn't mean he is not sincere about this.
Do you know anyone who is openly transgender? I have a friend who has a transgender son. He is in junior high now, and has insisted that he was a boy since he was a toddler, even though he was born with female parts. He literally has no friends. The girls shun him and the boys beat the crap out of him.
Walk a mile in his shoes and see if you still think Caitlyn Jenner is just an attention whore.
Thank you! I can't stand the Kardashians and all they represent but that is no excuse for ignorance and intolerance.
If you know anyone who is transgender you know that it can be extremely isolating even in the best environments.
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happiness comes from within. there is no guarantee that anything one does to their self, for their self, buys, sells, drinks, eats, snorts, injects will bring happiness. once the shine wears off-what do you have left? i honestly hope he/she finds what he/she is looking for because what else is there? my concern is, that he/she is honest with him/herself and others so we don't have a bunch of people saying-i want what he/she has and then finds out, this isn't what i thought i was getting-buyers remorse?
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I struggle to find what is "insincere". You can have an opinion about how he's handling it, and the press coverage, but personal shots at his choice are absurd. People who think this is just an attention grab absolutely baffle me.
Find in any of my posts where I say he is insincere. I believe he is. Why does he have to pose on the cover of Vanity Faire or have a reality show? Looks like he is looking for attention to me. Being sincere about his choice and being an attention whore are two different things.
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Waitin' for F*ckin' to chime in on this one. Although he's probably at the shoe repair shop, as we type, gettin' some new soles and heels, ai na?
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Jenner can do what he/she wants but why does posing in Vanity Fair this rise to the level of worthy of a honor like this?
(he/she ... is gender a voluntary thing? Can one just announce trey changed their gender?)
Caitlyn Jenner to be Honored with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at The 2015 ESPYS on ABC July 15
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-to-be-honored-with-the-arthur-ashe-courage-award-at-the-2015-espys-on-abc-july-15/
Almost 40 years ago, Bruce Jenner’s Olympic success came as a result of strengthening both his mind and body leading to his status as one of the world’s greatest athletes, but the decision to publicly come out as a transgender woman took a different kind of courage and acceptance of one’s self. To celebrate that bravery, ESPN today announced that Jenner will be presented with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at The 2015 ESPYS Presented by Capital One. Presented annually to individuals whose contributions transcend sports, the Arthur Ashe Courage Award is the pinnacle of the sports celebration, which will be televised Wednesday, July 15, at 8 p.m. ET on ABC from Nokia Theatre L.A. LIVE.
Jenner’s unyielding resolve and hard work enabled him to win a gold medal in the 1976 Olympics and break world records. He then parlayed that success into a variety of roles across different areas including television, film, auto racing and business. Although Jenner first captured the attention of the nation for his athletic prowess and determination, the same strength of character shone through this past April when he sat down with ABC’s Diane Sawyer to come out as a transgender woman.
“In the past few months, the overwhelming outpouring of support from all over the world for my journey has been incredible,” said Jenner. “However, being honored with this award, which is named after one of my heroes, is truly special. For the first time this July, I will be able to stand as my true self in front of my peers.”
Added executive producer Maura Mandt: “Bruce has received many accolades over the years for being one of the greatest Olympians of our time but The ESPYS are honored to celebrate Bruce becoming Caitlyn. She has shown the courage to embrace a truth that had been hidden for years, and to embark on a journey that may not only give comfort to those facing similar circumstances, but can also help to educate people on the challenges that the transgender community faces.”
The Arthur Ashe Courage Award
The Arthur Ashe Courage Award is presented each year to individuals whose contributions transcend sports. Past honorees include: Jim Valvano (1993); Steve Palermo (1994); Howard Cosell (1995); Loretta Claiborne (1996); Muhammad Ali (1997); Dean Smith (1998); Billie Jean King (1999); Dave Sanders (2000); Olympian Cathy Freeman (2001); Todd Beamer, Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, four passengers who lost their lives September 11 on United Flight 93 (2002); Pat and Kevin Tillman (2003); Liberian-born soccer legend George Weah (2004); disabled athletes Emmanuel Ofosu Yeboah and Jim MacLaren (2005); Afghan female athletes (2006); and Trevor Ringland and Dave Cullen for their work with PeacePlayers (2007); U.S. Olympians Tommie Smith and John Carlos (2008); former president Nelson Mandela (2009); the Thomas family of Parkersburg, IA (2010); boxer Dewey Bozella (2011); women’s basketball coach Pat Summitt (2012); Robin Roberts (2013) and Michael Sam (2014).
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Jenner can do what he/she wants but why does posing in Vanity Fair this rise to the level of worthy of a honor like this?
(he/she ... is gender a voluntary thing? Can one just announce trey changed their gender?)
Caitlyn Jenner to be Honored with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at The 2015 ESPYS on ABC July 15
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2015/06/caitlyn-jenner-to-be-honored-with-the-arthur-ashe-courage-award-at-the-2015-espys-on-abc-july-15/
Almost 40 years ago, Bruce Jenner’s Olympic success came as a result of strengthening both his mind and body leading to his status as one of the world’s greatest athletes, but the decision to publicly come out as a transgender woman took a different kind of courage and acceptance of one’s self. To celebrate that bravery, ESPN today announced that Jenner will be presented with the Arthur Ashe Courage Award at The 2015 ESPYS Presented by Capital One. Presented annually to individuals whose contributions transcend sports, the Arthur Ashe Courage Award is the pinnacle of the sports celebration, which will be televised Wednesday, July 15, at 8 p.m. ET on ABC from Nokia Theatre L.A. LIVE.
Jenner’s unyielding resolve and hard work enabled him to win a gold medal in the 1976 Olympics and break world records. He then parlayed that success into a variety of roles across different areas including television, film, auto racing and business. Although Jenner first captured the attention of the nation for his athletic prowess and determination, the same strength of character shone through this past April when he sat down with ABC’s Diane Sawyer to come out as a transgender woman.
“In the past few months, the overwhelming outpouring of support from all over the world for my journey has been incredible,” said Jenner. “However, being honored with this award, which is named after one of my heroes, is truly special. For the first time this July, I will be able to stand as my true self in front of my peers.”
Added executive producer Maura Mandt: “Bruce has received many accolades over the years for being one of the greatest Olympians of our time but The ESPYS are honored to celebrate Bruce becoming Caitlyn. She has shown the courage to embrace a truth that had been hidden for years, and to embark on a journey that may not only give comfort to those facing similar circumstances, but can also help to educate people on the challenges that the transgender community faces.”
The Arthur Ashe Courage Award
The Arthur Ashe Courage Award is presented each year to individuals whose contributions transcend sports. Past honorees include: Jim Valvano (1993); Steve Palermo (1994); Howard Cosell (1995); Loretta Claiborne (1996); Muhammad Ali (1997); Dean Smith (1998); Billie Jean King (1999); Dave Sanders (2000); Olympian Cathy Freeman (2001); Todd Beamer, Mark Bingham, Tom Burnett and Jeremy Glick, four passengers who lost their lives September 11 on United Flight 93 (2002); Pat and Kevin Tillman (2003); Liberian-born soccer legend George Weah (2004); disabled athletes Emmanuel Ofosu Yeboah and Jim MacLaren (2005); Afghan female athletes (2006); and Trevor Ringland and Dave Cullen for their work with PeacePlayers (2007); U.S. Olympians Tommie Smith and John Carlos (2008); former president Nelson Mandela (2009); the Thomas family of Parkersburg, IA (2010); boxer Dewey Bozella (2011); women’s basketball coach Pat Summitt (2012); Robin Roberts (2013) and Michael Sam (2014).
1. The word you're looking for is she, not he/she.
2. It takes courage to publicly identify as transgender in a society that is incredibly transphobic, as evidenced by this thread, including your belittling implication that the award is because she posed for Vanity Fair.
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Find in any of my posts where I say he is insincere. I believe he is. Why does he have to pose on the cover of Vanity Faire or have a reality show? Looks like he is looking for attention to me. Being sincere about his choice and being an attention whore are two different things.
She had already been celebrity for a decade before she had ever met a Kardashian. By being public about this, she is showing transgender kids and other "misfits" that it is okay to be who you are. What message would she be sending if she had decided to live in seclusion instead?
Maybe Magic Johnson should have just gone to live on a deserted island when he discovered he was HIV positive. But instead, he called a press conference that was carried on every network to let everyone know that despite his challenges, he was still the same person. Was he an attention whore? Or did he change millions of people's attitudes about HIV?
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Seriously, people? Some really sad commentary from people here, probably because it just makes you uncomfortable.
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Unfortunately for Caitlyn, my perspective of her story is skewed by the vast level of disdain I have for the Kardashian clan. That her family has a documented "attention whore" dynamic does not go unnoticed. The fact is that I think that her transition would be a *much* smaller story were it not for her family's stature as fame-seekers is not lost on me.
That being said hopefully she can leverage her fame and accomplish something good from the publicity. It is a sad testament to the horrible nature of her family that we even have to discuss the possibility that she is an "attention whore."
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She had already been celebrity for a decade before she had ever met a Kardashian. By being public about this, she is showing transgender kids and other "misfits" that it is okay to be who you are. What message would she be sending if she had decided to live in seclusion instead?
Maybe Magic Johnson should have just gone to live on a deserted island when he discovered he was HIV positive. But instead, he called a press conference that was carried on every network to let everyone know that despite his challenges, he was still the same person. Was he an attention whore? Or did he change millions of people's attitudes about HIV?
That's true she is showing people it is ok to be who you are, but are you sure that is what motivates her to go after publicity? I don't know and you don't either unless like you said you have walked a mile in her shoes. My original point was that she is getting more praise than she deserves. some may feel otherwise that's fine its my opinion.
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Seriously, people? Some really sad commentary from people here, probably because it just makes you uncomfortable.
interesting comment from someone who has a Schmidt's gay avatar.
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That's true she is showing people it is ok to be who you are, but are you sure that is what motivates her to go after publicity? I don't know and you don't either unless like you said you have walked a mile in her shoes. My original point was that she is getting more praise than she deserves. some may feel otherwise that's fine its my opinion.
How do you know she "went after" publicity? Publicity was going after her way, way before she wanted to talk about it. Have you ever seen the tape of all the paparazzi harassing her as she left a medical clinic?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to make an announcement on one's own terms. And what woman wouldn't want to have her picture taken by Annie Leibovitz and have it appear on the cover of Vanity Fair? I hope she is on Vogue next.
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How do you know she "went after" publicity? Publicity was going after her way, way before she wanted to talk about it. Have you ever seen the tape of all the paparazzi harassing her as she left a medical clinic?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to make an announcement on one's own terms. And what woman wouldn't want to have her picture taken by Annie Leibovitz and have it appear on the cover of Vanity Fair? I hope she is on Vogue next.
Ok believe what you want I will believe what I want
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Buncha transphobia up in here. You guys are embarrassing sometimes.
I am no more afraid of transgendered people than I am of gays than I am of rabbits.
Bruce Jenner on the cover of Vanity Fair as a woman is odd. That isn't a pejorative. It is relativist perspective on life known as Absurdism.
Everyone wants to start accusing people of bad intent or evil design. Someone known as a man suddenly appears on the cover of a magazine as a woman is odd.
If I were to see a rabbit smoking a cigarette it would strike me as odd.
You either Absurdism or you don't but it seems to me that you are the Absolutist in this case. Now that is actually funny...
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Can't all of the above be courageous?
I suppose Jenner's internal struggle could be seen as a personal victory of some sort but I think it a stretch to suggest he has done something courageous.
Courage is like the word education; it means many different things.
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Kinda like a "retired number," hey?
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Someone known as a man suddenly appears on the cover of a magazine as a woman is odd.
Reality TV, tabloids and TMZ are things i know exist but never entertain (and have distain for). Yet in my daily daily life at the grocery check out, buying gas, unable to mute the table next to me, it was obvious months ago that she was going to declare her gender. This was hardly 'suddenly'.
Now a rabbit smoking a cig? I'm shocked!
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Clarification help: This dude didn't get the dils chopped off right? He's still got a dong?
It's a bizarre story to me, especially at age 67 or whatever he is. I don't understand it.
To Jenner, hey do whatever you need to.....but people calling him courageous is nonsense. He knew he would be / is being "embraced" by many for doing this.
You can't even be a sane person who says, "uhhh, this is some weird sh1t. Look at that dude" and not be called insensitive, awful, sexist (?), etc... which is bizarre... because this whole thing is bizarre.
Just like being gay is in 2015 for many - you'll be accepted by many. Courageous? Meh.
Maybe they can put a mural of this weirdo on the wall where Assata was, a'inal?
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interesting comment from someone who has a Schmidt's gay avatar.
Why's that? That skit doesn't make fun of gay men more than any Coors commercial with straight men drooling over large breasted children. It's a satire of poor 90s Budweiser commercials and a commentary of the public reaction of gay men to that satire.
Besides the point, I'm sure you also defend yourself against gay marriage by declaring children will not be able to understand why another child has two fathers.
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Clarification help: This dude didn't get the dils chopped off right? He's still got a dong?
Just so you know, that is considered to be basically the rudest question you can ask a transgender person. It's none of your business.
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1. The word you're looking for is she, not he/she.
2. It takes courage to publicly identify as transgender in a society that is incredibly transphobic, as evidenced by this thread, including your belittling implication that the award is because she posed for Vanity Fair.
So gender is not assigned at birth. It is whatever I say it is this week.
Can you also self-identify your race too? Because if you can, can someone born white make decide to self-identify themselves as, say, a black female when applying for a job or college because they believe such identification will increase their chances of acceptance?
Just asking.
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Here Are All the Different Genders You Can Be on Facebook
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/02/13/facebook_custom_gender_options_here_are_all_56_custom_options.html
Facebook on Thursday added more than 50 custom gender options for users who don't identify simply as "male" or "female." While this was welcome news to LGBTQ advocates, the company did not publish a list of all the options, leaving users to begin typing into an empty text field in order to bring up a drop-down menu of autocomplete choices. (The site does not seem to allow users to simply leave the field blank, or to type in a gender identifier that is not among the preset options.)
Facebook told me it has no plans to publish a comprehensive list of the choices it offers. So we took it upon ourselves to reconstruct it by typing each letter of the alphabet into the text field, one at a time, and transcribing the options that appeared. We found 56 custom options, bringing the total number of options to 58 including male and female. Please note that it's possible that the list below is not complete. If you find one that we missed, please feel free to point it out in the comments and we'll update accordingly.
Agender
Androgyne
Androgynous
Bigender
Cis
Cisgender
Cis Female
Cis Male
Cis Man
Cis Woman
Cisgender Female
Cisgender Male
Cisgender Man
Cisgender Woman
Female to Male
FTM
Gender Fluid
Gender Nonconforming
Gender Questioning
Gender Variant
Genderqueer
Intersex
Male to Female
MTF
Neither
Neutrois
Non-binary
Other
Pangender
Trans
Trans*
Trans Female
Trans* Female
Trans Male
Trans* Male
Trans Man
Trans* Man
Trans Person
Trans* Person
Trans Woman
Trans* Woman
Transfeminine
Transgender
Transgender Female
Transgender Male
Transgender Man
Transgender Person
Transgender Woman
Transmasculine
Transsexual
Transsexual Female
Transsexual Male
Transsexual Man
Transsexual Person
Transsexual Woman
Two-Spirit
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Just so you know, that is considered to be basically the rudest question you can ask a transgender person. It's none of your business.
Oh, I could probably come up with a few questions that make that not seem too rude. If someone publicly parades that they're transgender, I fail to understand why asking a potentially related question is rude. I guess we're talking the diff of what? How you see yourself and what you are?
I know that some ppl simply choose to be gay. Probably the same with this stuff too
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Just so you know, that is considered to be basically the rudest question you can ask a transgender person. It's none of your business.
According to whom?
In Washington state, a very liberal place, people sent to jail get locked up according to their birth gender genitalia. If you are Bruce Jenner at lock up, but tell people you are really "Caitlin" Jenner and should be sent to the women's facility, if you are still packing you get housed with the lads.
People saying that Bruce Jenner has courage might not have ever seen genuine heroism. I have seen men risk their lives for others. I am certain men like Tower has too. To compare some self-absorbed identity crisis with authentic courage is an insult to the brave men and women who risk everything while serving others.
I have 14 bros in the ground. Bruce Jenner's struggle with trying to live life as a woman is nothing compared with the extraordinary valor and genuine courage those 14 men demonstrated every day. Frankly, Bruce Jenner isn't worthy to carry the Under Armour base layer of any Air Commando I know. When people declare Bruce Jenner's struggle as valorous or courageous they do nothing but cheapen its meaning for the real heroes of this world.
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Courage is relative but I think there's some general consensus as to what is deemed truly courageous.
Malala, to me, is more courageous than Jenner.
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Malala, to me, is more courageous than Jenner.
There is no comparison between Malala and Jenner. Hers is a remarkable story. She risks her own life fighting for the rights and dignity of millions of others. Bruce Jenner grandstands what should be a very personal, private identity self-issue that has very little relevance for anyone.
To honor Malala as courageous then characterize Jenner's 'struggle' as having some equivalent nobility is ludicrous. Malala is a champion of human rights and is fighting truth, justice, and the legitimate inherent dignity of every person. Jenner is a self-absorbed, churlish boor cynically capitalizing on his psychological demons.
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Oh, I could probably come up with a few questions that make that not seem too rude. If someone publicly parades that they're transgender, I fail to understand why asking a potentially related question is rude. I guess we're talking the diff of what? How you see yourself and what you are?
I know that some ppl simply choose to be gay. Probably the same with this stuff too
People don't choose to be gay just like people don't choose to be straight. If you believe that it's a choice either 1) you met someone who acted as if they were gay (not the same as being gay), 2) you have never actually met a gay person, or 3) you are amazingly ignorant about sexual orientation other than your own.
I'll give you that not so long ago it was a popularly held belief that it could be a choice but understanding and science have shown that to be totally wrong just like white people aren't smarter than black people, women aren't too emotional to serve in the armed forces, having gay service men/women won't destroy moral and gingers aren't unholy soulless demons.
It's 2015, time to be a bit more enlightened.
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Why's that? That skit doesn't make fun of gay men more than any Coors commercial with straight men drooling over large breasted children. It's a satire of poor 90s Budweiser commercials and a commentary of the public reaction of gay men to that satire.
Besides the point, I'm sure you also defend yourself against gay marriage by declaring children will not be able to understand why another child has two fathers.
Yes I have seen the skit. I guess you get to pick and choose what offends you. Plus the avatar is tired and not funny.
As far as your 2nd paragraph, I’m not sure where the hell you are going with that or how you know what I think. Obviously making assumptions about people’s beliefs’ to make yourself appear self-righteous is ok with you.
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Oh, I could probably come up with a few questions that make that not seem too rude. If someone publicly parades that they're transgender, I fail to understand why asking a potentially related question is rude. I guess we're talking the diff of what? How you see yourself and what you are?
I know that some ppl simply choose to be gay. Probably the same with this stuff too
Asking anyone about their genitals is rude, with the exception of some of the chat rooms that you hang out in.
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A lot of people using a lot of words to defend their bigotry.
I hope I don't become this closed minded as I age.
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Plus the avatar is tired and not funny.
OOOOOooooo.....BUUUURRRRRNNNN!!!!!!!
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There is no comparison between Malala and Jenner. Hers is a remarkable story. She risks her own life fighting for the rights and dignity of millions of others. Bruce Jenner grandstands what should be a very personal, private identity self-issue that has very little relevance for anyone.
To honor Malala as courageous then characterize Jenner's 'struggle' as having some equivalent nobility is ludicrous. Malala is a champion of human rights and is fighting truth, justice, and the legitimate inherent dignity of every person. Jenner is a self-absorbed, churlish boor cynically capitalizing on his psychological demons.
Who said that Jenner was more courageous than Malala? Why must people create strawmen to make their points?
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(http://memecrunch.com/meme/7QD1/internet-arguments-strawman/image.jpg)
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From my perspective, there is plenty of room in this situation for everyone to be "right." I think Caitlyn Jenner is very sincere and has endured significant pain and struggles for a long time. I think it takes courage to go public with something like this, but nowhere near as much courage as shown by people who put their lives on the line to serve others. And, finally, I think that she learned very well from the Kardashians and has orchestrated this entire situation for maximum exposure for her and to increase interest in her forthcoming reality show. I don't think that means she's not sincere -- although truth be told, it does make me think a bit less of the courage aspect.
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From my perspective, there is plenty of room in this situation for everyone to be "right." I think Caitlyn Jenner is very sincere and has endured significant pain and struggles for a long time. I think it takes courage to go public with something like this, but nowhere near as much courage as shown by people who put their lives on the line to serve others. And, finally, I think that she learned very well from the Kardashians and has orchestrated this entire situation for maximum exposure for her and to increase interest in her forthcoming reality show. I don't think that means she's not sincere -- although truth be told, it does make me think a bit less of the courage aspect.
Well said.
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Just so you know, that is considered to be basically the rudest question you can ask a transgender person. It's none of your business.
So if I put on a wig and called myself Susie, you wouldn't care if I walked into the women's locker room when you were changing?
I am not "for" or "against" what Jenner is doing, and happen to think it's a very sincere change. But the genital question could be VERY relevant in certain situations.
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So if I put on a wig and called myself Susie, you wouldn't care if I walked into the women's locker room when you were changing?
I am not "for" or "against" what Jenner is doing, and happen to think it's a very sincere change. But the genital question could be VERY relevant in certain situations.
Because the question as to whether it's okay for a trans woman is allowed to use women's facilities depends on whether or not her male junk is cut off?
For the record, it is my understanding that presurgery or not, the overwhelming number of trans people bend over backwards to be discreet about this. It's not like they are all strolling naked into the community shower going, "Check this out, fellow beyotches!"
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Because the question as to whether it's okay for a trans woman is allowed to use women's facilities depends on whether or not her male junk is cut off?
For the record, it is my understanding that presurgery or not, the overwhelming number of trans people bend over backwards to be discreet about this. It's not like they are all strolling naked into the community shower going, "Check this out, fellow beyotches!"
Agreed - the overwhelming majority of legitimately transgender people try to be discreet. The problem is that if society becomes too afraid to ask difficult questions about a person's status, it could ultimately allow pervs who are not legitimately transgender to stroll into the other locker room to catch a peek...and defend their actions by saying "but I consider myself one of the gals."
Asking these difficult questions would actually help transgender people in the long run, because it would help to weed out people with nefarious motives from those with true transgender identities.
Just my $0.02...and as I said, I am not one of those people who are ridiculing or demeaning people who truly have transgender identities.
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Agreed - the overwhelming majority of legitimately transgender people try to be discreet. The problem is that if society becomes too afraid to ask difficult questions about a person's status, it could ultimately allow pervs who are not legitimately transgender to stroll into the other locker room to catch a peek...and defend their actions by saying "but I consider myself one of the gals."
Asking these difficult questions would actually help transgender people in the long run, because it would help to weed out people with nefarious motives from those with true transgender identities.
Just my $0.02...and as I said, I am not one of those people who are ridiculing or demeaning people who truly have transgender identities.
My wife had a male team member who left Microsoft for a year and returned as a woman. I knew this individual as both a man and a woman. Microsoft sponsored this person's medical leave and had counselors come in and meet with my wife's team over the course of a few months during the person's reintegration into the workplace.
Not everyone understood or accepted this person's decision but Microsoft made very clear that it would not tolerate abuse or harassment as LGBT is considered a protected category. But Microsoft also understood clearly that the impact of Mike coming back to work as Debbie would be traumatic for everyone for a range of reasons in a varying degrees.
When I first saw this person it was at a team social event and I found it extremely odd since I had known Mike and not Debbie. I was neither threatened nor angry. Frankly, I didn't care in any way other than I was growing weary of listening to my wife's nightly stories of a Day in the Life of Debbie at MBD.
When a colleague has a gall bladder operation we express the appropriate level of interest and concern and then get on with our day. When a male colleague returns as a woman it impacts us in a more fundamental and profound way. Anyone who suggests that any discomfort is inappropriate must be ignorant of human nature. It is expected that such a change will affect people. The key is in how we manage those reactions.
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Agreed - the overwhelming majority of legitimately transgender people try to be discreet. The problem is that if society becomes too afraid to ask difficult questions about a person's status, it could ultimately allow pervs who are not legitimately transgender to stroll into the other locker room to catch a peek...and defend their actions by saying "but I consider myself one of the gals."
Asking these difficult questions would actually help transgender people in the long run, because it would help to weed out people with nefarious motives from those with true transgender identities.
Just my $0.02...and as I said, I am not one of those people who are ridiculing or demeaning people who truly have transgender identities.
To me, asking a trans person about the current state of his genitals to prove he or she is truly transgender is like asking an African American man the size of his penis to prove his race.
Is there some rash of men saying they are trans just to get into women's locker rooms? The only one I know of is Mike Huckabee.
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To me, asking a trans person about the current state of his genitals to prove he or she is truly transgender is like asking an African American man the size of his penis to prove his race.
That would indicate that you've bought into the "once you go black, you never go back" myth. Hardly grounds for a well-informed comparison.
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Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.
These are facts
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Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.
These are facts
(http://img.pandawhale.com/post-17260-spencer-reid-OH-OKAY-gif-QdyRH-Ey7F.gif)
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Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.
These are facts
So you're saying "it's #3". Thanks for clarifying
"People don't choose to be gay just like people don't choose to be straight. If you believe that it's a choice either 1) you met someone who acted as if they were gay (not the same as being gay), 2) you have never actually met a gay person, or 3) you are amazingly ignorant about sexual orientation other than your own.
I'll give you that not so long ago it was a popularly held belief that it could be a choice but understanding and science have shown that to be totally wrong just like white people aren't smarter than black people, women aren't too emotional to serve in the armed forces, having gay service men/women won't destroy moral and gingers aren't unholy soulless demons.
It's 2015, time to be a bit more enlightened. "
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That would indicate that you've bought into the "once you go black, you never go back" myth. Hardly grounds for a well-informed comparison.
My point is, you can't make assumptions about people based on their genitalia. Unless it is a cis male who is an observant Jew.
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Just so you know, that is considered to be basically the rudest question you can ask a transgender person. It's none of your business.
And you know this because a disturbed child of a friend of yours has identity problems? You're an expert on transgender people?
Your high horse on this is in danger of tipping over.
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Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.
These are facts
You are 100 percent correct.
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And you know this because a disturbed child of a friend of yours has identity problems? You're an expert on transgender people?
Your high horse on this is in danger of tipping over.
I don't claim to be an expert, but I do my best to find out what is considered polite and what isn't.
Katie Couric got excoriated awhile back when she tried to get LaVerne Cox, the transgender star of "Orange is the New Black", to tell her whether or not she had undergone surgery or not.
http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2014/01/katie-couric-transgender-laverne-cox
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You are 100 percent correct.
Chick is correct and you and JB need to realize your point of view on this topic is antiquated, ignorant, in the minority, wrong, and flat out hateful. I don't wish either of you ill will but i do:
- hope you seek out somebody who is truly LGBT and listen to them about who they are and what they experience
- assume you don't use your Christianity as a backing for your position of demeaning others
- hope those in your family, employ, and social circuits that are LGBT have people that are supportive of them
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A lot of people using a lot of words to defend their bigotry.
I hope I don't become this closed minded as I age.
that is pretty closed minded of you. really.
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Chick is correct and you and JB need to realize your point of view on this topic is antiquated, ignorant, in the minority, wrong, and flat out hateful. I don't wish either of you ill will but i do:
- hope you seek out somebody who is truly LGBT and listen to them about who they are and what they experience
- assume you don't use your Christianity as a backing for your position of demeaning others
- hope those in your family, employ, and social circuits that are LGBT have people that are supportive of them
It's ignorant to.claim otherwise. How about if I ask actress Anne Heche? I believe she was in a same sex relationship for many years. Now she's married to a male. It is a fact that there are some people who chose that lifestyle and some who do not. It's not really hard to accept. It's also an ironclad fact that Bruce Jenner was odd and now his newly.sex changed personal is odd. It is odd and she is odd. In fact, it's really strange to claim it's anything other than odd.
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It's ignorant to.claim otherwise. How about if I ask actress Anne Heche? I believe she was in a same sex relationship for many years. Now she's married to a male. It is a fact that there are some people who chose that lifestyle and some who do not. It's not really hard to accept. It's also an ironclad fact that Bruce Jenner was odd and now his newly.sex changed personal is odd. It is odd and she is odd. In fact, it's really strange to claim it's anything other than odd.
Not knowing who Anne Heche is I used 'the Google' to search "Anne Heche POV on sexuality" and found that yes she was in a same sex relationship with Ellen but now is married to a man. The top result was an ABCnews article (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=124037) where she talks about sexual abuse from her father. I have no idea if this story is accurate (never met Anne, Ellen, Anne's father, or the author of the article) but it seems plausible that the one example you hold up as proof is questionable due to horrible circumstance. I ask you again......unless you know Anne personally, talk to a non media GLBT person.
You use the word odd 5 times in the last 4 sentences **note - hard to tell due to the lack of spacing and proliferation of periods** I ask that you read Keefe's post on the acceptance of a transgender person back into Microsoft's workforce. He nails the fact that it is odd but there are ways us straights can get help in understanding.
Edit: Sorry.....Yes, it's ignorant!
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To me, asking a trans person about the current state of his genitals to prove he or she is truly transgender is like asking an African American man the size of his penis to prove his race.
Is there some rash of men saying they are trans just to get into women's locker rooms? The only one I know of is Mike Huckabee.
For the record, I'm a white dude, but I'm black from the waist down. ;)
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I don't claim to be an expert, but I do my best to find out what is considered polite and what isn't.
Katie Couric got excoriated awhile back when she tried to get LaVerne Cox, the transgender star of "Orange is the New Black", to tell her whether or not she had undergone surgery or not.
http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2014/01/katie-couric-transgender-laverne-cox
I'm an older dude. Didn't know any gays growing up. Now I know several, but it has taken me some time to come around to being able to acknowledge it as being an acceptable...lifestyle. (See - I'm not even sure about the correct word to put there.) But I educated myself and have come to that point as that is the direction society is going. I kind of accept it with a shrug of my shoulders, and relate to these people as I would if they were hetero.
I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue. I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.
As to courage, I suppose Jenner deserves some credit for empowering those similarly situated. especially youth. But if he's doing it because she (see...progress!) is an attention whore and the empowerment is an unintentional byproduct, much less so. I think her level of courage pales to some of the other examples used.
I remember there was once just a Gay Liberation movement. Then it morphed into the LGBT movement. I have to give the transgender community credit for how they were able to hook their wagon to the larger gay movement and really are bootstrapping their way to acceptability.
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For the record, I'm a white dude, but I'm black from the waist down. ;)
I actually just say I am from the knees down...
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There is no comparison between Malala and Jenner. Hers is a remarkable story. She risks her own life fighting for the rights and dignity of millions of others. Bruce Jenner grandstands what should be a very personal, private identity self-issue that has very little relevance for anyone.
To honor Malala as courageous then characterize Jenner's 'struggle' as having some equivalent nobility is ludicrous. Malala is a champion of human rights and is fighting truth, justice, and the legitimate inherent dignity of every person. Jenner is a self-absorbed, churlish boor cynically capitalizing on his psychological demons.
Here is another opinion supporting your view and calling out ESPN's sensationalism.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2015/06/03/paul-daugherty-espys-courage-award-should-go-to-lauren-hill/28428797/
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Wow ESPN is being sensational? Stop the presses...
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Jenner is a weirdo and some gay people simply choose to be gay.
These are facts
Some people choose to engage in homosexual acts. That doesn't make them gay.
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Is there some rash of men saying they are trans just to get into women's locker rooms? The only one I know of is Mike Huckabee.
(http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/south-park/clip-thumbnails/season-18/1803/south-park-s18e03c04-you-guys-are-so-cisgender_16x9.jpg)
It's ignorant to.claim otherwise. How about if I ask actress Anne Heche? I believe she was in a same sex relationship for many years. Now she's married to a male. It is a fact that there are some people who chose that lifestyle and some who do not. It's not really hard to accept. It's also an ironclad fact that Bruce Jenner was odd and now his newly.sex changed personal is odd. It is odd and she is odd. In fact, it's really strange to claim it's anything other than odd.
Agree. And "some" being a key word. It's a minority, but suggesting 100% either way is absurd.
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I think its helpful to remember, according Alfred Kinsey who has some of the most thorough research on the subject, sexuality and preference is a scale. Its not black and white. A relationship or feelings can be the result of many things but doesn't necessarily disprove preference, especially when factors such as previous emotional trauma in the case of Heche come into play. Hey, Elton John was married once, totally straight, clearly he chose to be gay later... ::)
I'm an older dude. Didn't know any gays growing up. Now I know several, but it has taken me some time to come around to being able to acknowledge it as being an acceptable...lifestyle. (See - I'm not even sure about the correct word to put there.) But I educated myself and have come to that point as that is the direction society is going. I kind of accept it with a shrug of my shoulders, and relate to these people as I would if they were hetero.
I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue. I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.
As to courage, I suppose Jenner deserves some credit for empowering those similarly situated. especially youth. But if he's doing it because she (see...progress!) is an attention whore and the empowerment is an unintentional byproduct, much less so. I think her level of courage pales to some of the other examples used.
I remember there was once just a Gay Liberation movement. Then it morphed into the LGBT movement. I have to give the transgender community credit for how they were able to hook their wagon to the larger gay movement and really are bootstrapping their way to acceptability.
I think your take and perspective is fair and pretty open minded. The latter is bit unfair. If you look in history, acceptance of homosexuality was hard enough, transgender is even more tricky. Until recently, there wasn't the medical ability to make such transformations, so the person was essentially living an uncomfortable existence their entire life. Additionally, much as how ridiculous we see antiquated views on race now, it was a major sea change at the time. I feel the acceptance of homosexuality is the civil rights movement of my generation. And as weird as it is to say, its the most "easily accepted" of the LGBT segment of the population, so I don't think its hooking the wagon as much as its following a logical pattern of social education and acceptance.
And so as not to appear haughty, I'll admit its still a bit "different" for me as well. I have plenty of gay and lesbian friends/coworkers. Ive been to gay bars with one of my best friends, actively wingman him as he tries to meet guys. Its not a big deal. Again, he's my friend, like Spaniell said, i treat him like he's hetero, but not even that, I just treat him like I would any other human. But I have very little experience with the transgender community and unfortunately, not all of it has been positive. But I've learned to be sympathetic to all forms of the human condition, and understanding will come.
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Some people choose to engage in homosexual acts. That doesn't make them gay.
Exactly.
Some people seem incapable/unwilling to recognize the distinction.
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I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue. I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.
There is a difference between having general information about the different surgical options and choices among trans people and having a "need" to know on an individual basis what a particular person's status is.
There are many reasons why a trans person might still have their original genitals. They might not be able to afford the surgery. They may be waiting for surgical techniques to improve. They may choose never to have the surgery because as long as they are able to express their true gender in every other way, they are fine with things the way they are.
No one needs to know if a trans person is "cut" unless they anticipate having sex with them and need to know what to expect when the clothes come off. It's no one else's business. Why would that question be any less inappropriate than asking any other person about their genitals?
It seems to be a guy thing to be so focused on this. There is so much more to gender identity than body parts. I mean, if any of you fellas had the misfortune of losing your junk in an unfortunate industrial accident, would you still consider yourself to be a man?
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Being a Lesbian trapped in a man's body I can sympathize with Jenner's transition.
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Here is another opinion supporting your view and calling out ESPN's sensationalism.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/columnists/paul-daugherty/2015/06/03/paul-daugherty-espys-courage-award-should-go-to-lauren-hill/28428797/
Not only is it ESPN sensationalism. I think this is all orchestrated. Nothing in Hollywood is real. None of this is genuine.
The cynic in me thinks after Jenner was kicked off the Kardashians (he was) he asked for his own show. When met with a luke warm response, he offered to become a transgender and that got them interested. (It was easy for him to do this because he was leaning that way for years but the pull of continued celebrity with his own show was the motivation to come out now.)
So E arranged for a reality show. E direct the coming out. E got (or paid for) the Vanity Fair cover (most VF covers are paid for, which is the case with most celebrity magazines). E even made a deal for the ESPY award (E either paid for it or offered ESPN something in return.)
Most celebrity do not "get" awards. They are paid to show up and accept them or accept them as part of a quid pro quo. See Bill Clinton. Major awards like Oscars, Pulitzers and Nobels are the exception.
See Michael Sam getting the ESPY award last year. That was all orchestrated with cover stories and a reality show as well (before the NFL balked about them filming in their training camps. The NFL did not want the precedent of players arranged for their own reality shows being filmed in their training camps. Their fear is every camp then has 3 to 5 crews filming in practice creating a huge disruption. The exception is "Hard Knocks" as that is the NFL's own reality show).
This is all bought and paid for publicity to get people to watch.
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Not only is it ESPN sensationalism. I think this is all orchestrated. Nothing in Hollywood is real. None of this is genuine.
The cynic in me thinks after Jenner was kicked off the Kardashians (he was) he asked for his own show. When met with a luke warm response, he offered to become a transgender and that got them interested. (It was easy for him to do this because he was leaning that way for years but the pull of continued celebrity with his own show was the motivation to come out now.)
So E arranged for a reality show. E direct the coming out. E got (or paid for) the Vanity Fair cover (most VF covers are paid for, which is the case with most celebrity magazines). E even made a deal for the ESPY award (E either paid for it or offered ESPN something in return.)
Most celebrity do not "get" awards. They are paid to show up and accept them or accept them as part of a quid pro quo. See Bill Clinton. Major awards like Oscars, Pulitzers and Nobels are the exception.
See Michael Sam getting the ESPY award last year. That was all orchestrated with cover stories and a reality show as well (before the NFL balked about them filming in their training camps. The NFL did not want the precedent of players arranged for their own reality shows being filmed in their training camps. Their fear is every camp then has 3 to 5 crews filming in practice creating a huge disruption. The exception is "Hard Knocks" as that is the NFL's own reality show).
This is all bought and paid for publicity to get people to watch.
This is why all the hullabaloo is going to make this the worst thing for transgender individuals (as if there are so many of them that this is a legitimate issue.)
I sympathize with individuals who are so deeply disturbed that they think changing sex is the answer to their problems, I truly do. I cannot imagine it. What irritates me is this discussion people are now having about dealing with transgender people, what bathrooms they should use, how to handle it in the workplace, how to talk to kids about it, etc. It's nonsense! This is so uncommon it's not even worth discussion. We'd be better off talking about survivors of lightning strikes.
The fact is, Jenner is going to deeply regret this "decision, as it seems a large number of those before him have acknowledged. But let's celebrate him!
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I am waaaay more ignorant about this transgender issue. I'm sure I'll come around in time, but I need to learn more and damn well one of the questions I'm going to have is what is done with the genitalia. If transgender people are somehow insulted about divulging that information, it's going to take a lot longer for them to reach the acceptance level that the gay community has attained. Openly sharing of all the mysteries that surround the transgender lifestyle will accelerate societal acceptance.
I am on the same page as you on understanding and accepting homosexuality - acceptance always comes after understanding - and I think this statement about transgender people is spot on. The reality is that more information is better than less when a group is working toward understanding and acceptance. And the more the answer is "it's none of your business," the longer it will take to gain that acceptance.
A person who wants to say "it's none of your business" certainly has every right to do so. But they should do it with the knowledge that it delays more widespread acceptance.
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"I will accept you, but only if you describe your private parts."
Unreal.
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"true gender"
Ok, I asked a colleague, a recognized authority in genomics who was a member of a Nobel Prize-winning team, about gender and he said the litmus test is simple: What is the individual's biological reproductive basis.
Cosmetically altering one's body or employing those cultural conventions and norm society attributes to a gender does not actually alter or change one's gender.
Gender is immutable. One may choose to adopt certain behaviors but one cannot actually 'change' one's gender.
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Ok, I asked a colleague, a recognized authority in genomics who was a member of a Nobel Prize-winning team, about gender and he said the litmus test is simple: What is the individual's biological reproductive basis.
Cosmetically altering one's body or employing those cultural conventions and norm society attributes to a gender does not actually alter or change one's gender.
Gender is immutable. One may choose to adopt certain behaviors but one cannot actually 'change' one's gender.
Well of course that is what someone who studies genomics is going to say. They are going to give you a black and white answer based on biology. But gender isn't simply about biology.
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So you're saying "it's #3". Thanks for clarifying
"People don't choose to be gay just like people don't choose to be straight. If you believe that it's a choice either 1) you met someone who acted as if they were gay (not the same as being gay), 2) you have never actually met a gay person, or 3) you are amazingly ignorant about sexual orientation other than your own.
I'll give you that not so long ago it was a popularly held belief that it could be a choice but understanding and science have shown that to be totally wrong just like white people aren't smarter than black people, women aren't too emotional to serve in the armed forces, having gay service men/women won't destroy moral and gingers aren't unholy soulless demons.
It's 2015, time to be a bit more enlightened. "
Ummmm.... not so long ago you had a lot of gay people who "choosing" to be straight. Look at any homosexual who lived a "heterosexual" life for years, decades, etc... that was a choice.
So what's so difficult to comprehend about a straight person choosing to be gay? Bigots exist on both sides of the closet door.
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"I will accept you, but only if you describe your private parts."
Unreal.
You're right. Ignorance is better. Look at how well "don't ask, don't tell" worked for homosexuals in the military.
Guess we should just stop asking questions and believe what we're told to believe.
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You're right. Ignorance is better. Look at how well "don't ask, don't tell" worked for homosexuals in the military.
Guess we should just stop asking questions and believe what we're told to believe.
The equivalent of "describe your private parts" isn't Don't Ask, Don't Tell, but asking a homosexual guy to "describe giving a blow job." It is a rude question about something that should be private.
Do you really think that gay and lesbian rights has advanced in this country because they are sharing their most intimate details with the public? No. It's because people have kind of figured out that they are simply normal people with private lives just like the rest of us.
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Well of course that is what someone who studies genomics is going to say. They are going to give you a black and white answer based on biology. But gender isn't simply about biology.
Well, it is the only empirically demonstrable fact we have.
At the end of the day, if the question is what is an individual's gender, the only evidence-based proof point we have is our genetic code.
Gender is about biology. How one chooses to express oneself or behave according to cultural norms and conventions is not fact but, rather, aspiration. The difference is profound.
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Well, it is the only empirically demonstrable fact we have.
At the end of the day, if the question is what is an individual's gender, the only evidence-based proof point we have is our genetic code.
Gender is about biology. How one chooses to express oneself or behave according to cultural norms and conventions is not fact but, rather, aspiration. The difference is profound.
You're right. The difference is profound. That doesn't mean that non-objective definitions of "gender" don't exist.
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Well of course that is what someone who studies genomics is going to say. They are going to give you a black and white answer based on biology. But gender isn't simply about biology.
So gender is a decision about how one feels regardless of their biology?
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Ummmm.... not so long ago you had a lot of gay people who "choosing" to be straight. Look at any homosexual who lived a "heterosexual" life for years, decades, etc... that was a choice.
So what's so difficult to comprehend about a straight person choosing to be gay? Bigots exist on both sides of the closet door.
Would a Jewish person in Nazi Germany who masqueraded as a Christian be any less Jewish? And I mean in the genetic/heritage sense, not choice of religion.
Choosing to adopt the less persecuted and more "socially acceptable" path to avoid persecution, bigotry, or familial discord is very different than actively "choosing" to become one of the persecuted. Some anti-homosexuality conservative advocates would like to believe being homosexual is a "hip and cool" choice, but really, outside of a few VERY small niches, there is no benefit to be gained socially or otherwise by making such a choice. It may have happened here or there, but to act like its a widespread activity meant to cheapen the biological basis of homosexuality is unfair.
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sharing their most intimate details with the public
Thank you. This is what I find repulsive about Jenner's grandstanding in all of this. I could care less how he or anyone else chooses to live their life. But to think that this whole transition has not been carefully scripted in a cynical attempt to generate fame and fortune through bizarre notoriety is naive.
I mentioned the transgender person at MS. When I met Debbie for the first time it was clear she was painfully awkward in her new personae which was largely driven by concern over how people would respond. She made a decision in how to live her life and the vast majority of people really didn't care.
I contrast Debbie's painful awkwardness with Jenner's in-your-face publicity grubbing antics and I am reminded that quiet dignity is usually the more elegant.
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So gender is a decision about how one feels regardless of their biology?
One of the definitions of gender in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
"The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)"
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One of the definitions of gender in the Oxford English Dictionary is:
"The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)"
Got it (I think). So Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a man biologically and a woman socially and culturally?
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Got it (I think). So Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a man biologically and a woman socially and culturally?
Well, if she has physically altered herself, I am not sure how that meets the biological definition. That is where the genomicist (?) comes into play.
But really the biological definition isn't the one that comes to play in her day to day life.
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Would a Jewish person in Nazi Germany who masqueraded as a Christian be any less Jewish? And I mean in the genetic/heritage sense, not choice of religion.
Choosing to adopt the less persecuted and more "socially acceptable" path to avoid persecution, bigotry, or familial discord is very different than actively "choosing" to become one of the persecuted. Some anti-homosexuality conservative advocates would like to believe being homosexual is a "hip and cool" choice, but really, outside of a few VERY small niches, there is no benefit to be gained socially or otherwise by making such a choice. It may have happened here or there, but to act like its a widespread activity meant to cheapen the biological basis of homosexuality is unfair.
Nobody said anything about being widespread; all that was said was that some people make that choice. Some do.
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Well, if she has physically altered herself, I am not sure how that meets the biological definition. That is where the genomicist (?) comes into play.
But really the biological definition isn't the one that comes to play in her day to day life.
So, back to the TransAbles. If they feel like they are amputees and live like they're amputees they don't need to actually amputate anything to be amputees.
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So, back to the TransAbles. If they feel like they are amputees and live like they're amputees they don't need to actually amputate anything to be amputees.
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/Jon-Stewart-mind-blown.gif)
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(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/Jon-Stewart-mind-blown.gif)
Isn't that the argument those advocating on their behalf make?
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No definition of "amputee" that I can find includes anything but the physical. Words change though.
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For the record, I'm a white dude, but I'm black from the waist down. ;)
Yeah, mostly in ur azz.
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For those of you who inappropriately disagree with my factual knowledge that (1) Jenner is a weirdo and (2) some people choose to be gay, why do you believe (2) is not true?
It's fact - some people choose to be gay. Some do it to feel included. "Eh, what the hell.. I'll give this a try..."
Why do you believe that NO ONE chooses to be gay?
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Yeah, mostly in ur azz.
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For those of you who inappropriately disagree with my factual knowledge that (1) Jenner is a weirdo and (2) some people choose to be gay, why do you believe (2) is not true?
It's fact - some people choose to be gay. Some do it to feel included. "Eh, what the hell.. I'll give this a try..."
Why do you believe that NO ONE chooses to be gay?
It's really not that difficult.
"Acting" gay is not the same as "being" gay.
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It's really not that difficult.
"Acting" gay is not the same as "being" gay.
Ahhh.... you agree that some people choose to be gay... but you'd say they are just 'fakers' even if they make a life of it... and thus, they're not "real gays"??
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Ahhh.... you agree that some people choose to be gay... but you'd say they are just 'fakers' even if they make a life of it... and thus, they're not "real gays"??
No, that's not remotely close to what I'm saying.
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Well, if she has physically altered herself, I am not sure how that meets the biological definition.
It doesn't. Jenner is still a biological man. Surgical alteration does not change one's gender. Anymore than a nose job does. They are both cosmetic procedures.
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@GSElevator 3h3 hours ago
Bruce Jenner got $25k for speaking engagements. Caitlyn gets $100k. What wage gap?
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@GSElevator 3h3 hours ago
Bruce Jenner got $25k for speaking engagements. Caitlyn gets $100k. What wage gap?
Weird Al tickets at the BMOHP going for over a hundred dollars. Barenaked Ladies around $50. Never underestimate the drawing power of weird.
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No, that's not remotely close to what I'm saying.
Can you choose to participate in homosexual activities and lifestyle? Yes. But that doesn't make you gay.
- Growing up in a Catholic family i followed all of the appropriate doctrines and rituals because that is what was demanded of me. Does that make me a Christian?
- My father was forced to write with his right hand growing up (ruler across the knuckles yo). Does that mean he wasn't left handed?
- I have a colleague that goes to various ComicCons (sp?) dressed as SpiderMan. Does it make him a super hero?
- Axel Rose continues to tour with a band called Guns and Roses. Does that mean that G&R still exists?
Point is we can all play a role but there is a difference between playing that role for either our psychological needs, or what society demands of us, and what we really are as people.
I'm atheist even though I went to mass most Sunday's at Marquette. My Dad was left handed even though he could write with his right hand. My colleague is pretty great but not a super hero. And there is no G&R without Slash (I was going to use "there is no VanHalen without Diamond Dave" but I thought that would be too controversial)
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No, that's not remotely close to what I'm saying.
Then what are you saying?
Do you agree that some people choose to be gay?
If yes, do you believe they are just 'fakers' even if they make a life of it? In other words, not "real gays"??
It doesn't. Jenner is still a biological man. Surgical alteration does not change one's gender. Anymore than a nose job does. They are both cosmetic procedures.
I heard Jenner didn't have surgery to take off his dils. (Not allowed to ask if true per warriorchick).
Which again is strange... you're a dude, then come out and want the general public to recognize you and call you a girl's name.... and talk about some of your transformational surgeries.. but others are banned from me being inquisitive of?
I think a lot of folks write the rules for what's OK and what's not with this stuff.
I don't care much what people do - but some gays do simply choose to be gay and Jenner is a flipping weirdo.
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Not bein' allowed to ax is weird, ai na? Let freedom ring, hey?
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Then what are you saying?
Do you agree that some people choose to be gay?
If yes, do you believe they are just 'fakers' even if they make a life of it? In other words, not "real gays"??
No. I, like the large majority of the scientific community, do not believe people choose to be gay.
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No. I, like the large majority of the scientific community, do not believe people choose to be gay.
I'm in agreement with you, and part of the reason that I bristle, even if an odd example or two is brought up like Jay Bee keeps hammering on, is that it just gives fuel to the ignorant and intolerant who say things like homosexuality is a product of a weak mind, or can be prayed away, or is simply a decision people make for vanity and social cred.
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It doesn't. Jenner is still a biological man. Surgical alteration does not change one's gender. Anymore than a nose job does. They are both cosmetic procedures.
if he still has an X and a Y chromosome, sorry, he's still a dude. i don't think they have mastered taking away the Y and giving them another X. as long as he has an XY, he can wear all the dresses, brassieres, g-strings, use "different" toys, sit n pee, use a curling iron..still a muchacho, a little rough around the edges, but still a dudeguy-comprende?
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Can you choose to participate in homosexual activities and lifestyle? Yes. But that doesn't make you gay.
- Growing up in a Catholic family i followed all of the appropriate doctrines and rituals because that is what was demanded of me. Does that make me a Christian?
- My father was forced to write with his right hand growing up (ruler across the knuckles yo). Does that mean he wasn't left handed?
- I have a colleague that goes to various ComicCons (sp?) dressed as SpiderMan. Does it make him a super hero?
- Axel Rose continues to tour with a band called Guns and Roses. Does that mean that G&R still exists?
Point is we can all play a role but there is a difference between playing that role for either our psychological needs, or what society demands of us, and what we really are as people.
I'm atheist even though I went to mass most Sunday's at Marquette. My Dad was left handed even though he could write with his right hand. My colleague is pretty great but not a super hero. And there is no G&R without Slash (I was going to use "there is no VanHalen without Diamond Dave" but I thought that would be too controversial)
'
How can you even say that?????? Despite a being a punchline in the movie Airheads, Van Halen did some great work with Sammy.
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I'm in agreement with you, and part of the reason that I bristle, even if an odd example or two is brought up like Jay Bee keeps hammering on, is that it just gives fuel to the ignorant and intolerant who say things like homosexuality is a product of a weak mind, or can be prayed away, or is simply a decision people make for vanity and social cred.
So if I have this straight (no pun intended), ideology should trump logic?
If you want to take the position that there are not even a handful of people in the ENTIRE WORLD who have chosen to be gay simply because you don't like the potential consequence of what that means, then how is that any less illogical than someone who claims the "gay can be prayed away?"
I find it quite interesting that there is more conjecture about whether or not some people choose to be gay than there is about the second half of JayBee's statement: that Jenner is a weirdo. After all, the latter seems much more subjective (I think Jenner's a weirdo, but have thought that for many years)... yet there's more "fuel for intolerance" to be found in the more objective of the two statements? Instead of dealing with the reality that some people have chosen to be gay, and saying "sure, so what, most don't" the anti-homophobe movement simply defies logic because hammering on an agenda means that there's never any exception to the rule. How is that not as dumb as a radical conservative who says that no one - without exception - could ever be born gay?
So yes... ideology > logic. I don't agree with it and refuse to ever accept it personally, but that's the unfortunate reality for many people apparently.
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@GSElevator 3h3 hours ago
Bruce Jenner got $25k for speaking engagements. Caitlyn gets $100k. What wage gap?
This has to be wrong. Somebody was paying Bruce Jenner to speak? I believe that was his asking price, but who would have asked this guy to speak? He was unrecognizable even before this situation. I could see Eruzione getting money for a speech or a golf outing, but Bruce Jenner?
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@GSElevator 3h3 hours ago
Bruce Jenner got $25k for speaking engagements. Caitlyn gets $100k. What wage gap?
But on the downside, she is no longer has the ability to parallel park.
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But on the downside, she is no longer has the ability to parallel park.
(http://rs1img.memecdn.com/dont-be-sexist_o_442488.jpg)
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But on the downside, she is no longer has the ability to parallel park.
Yeah, driving was never a strength apparently.
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When is the last time you heard Rosie O'Donnell gush over our military?
This pic of Rosie was popular in Iraq back in the day
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i49/CKsobent/off%20internet%20pics/rosieksm.jpg)