JJJ had a number of shots that looked like they were going to fall, but ultimately finished with one basket......that made #2 on ESPN's Top 10.
How many times did you rewind that dunk? Over/under set at four.
It was an amazing play, especially over Obekpa, but one highlight reel dunk then 0-4 the rest of the way = Trend Blackledge or Boo Christian.
Did they show his ridiculous 1 on 4 turnover on the next play too?
He dunked _around_ Obekpa. Golly.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 08:46:11 AM
Did they show his ridiculous 1 on 4 turnover on the next play too?
Imagine if Ners came onto a thread about a nice play by Derrick and said something similar. You're better than that. I think.
He got away with it, because he set Obefka (sp) up by weakly driving on the previous play allowing the pervious shot to be blocked.
Quote from: Ellenson Family Reunion on January 22, 2015, 09:11:17 AM
Imagine if Ners came onto a thread about a nice play by Derrick and said something similar. You're better than that. I think.
It was an exciting play. But it was just two points. He made a boneheaded play the next time down. That is what is so frustrating about JJJ and why he doesn't play more.
Does JJJ know how to use his left hand, always drives right. Easy to guard knowing that. His game has a lot of deficiencies, like can not shoot but thinks he can. Way overrated in high school
particularly his suppose ranking. I hope Wally can show he deserves to play the wing next year.
JJJ's dunk was awesome, but it counted for exactly the same 2 points as his careless turnover seconds later cost us. If he learns that the sky's the limit. But until he does he hurts us on balance.
Quote from: bilsu on January 22, 2015, 09:13:05 AM
He got away with it, because he set Obefka (sp) up by weakly driving on the previous play allowing the pervious shot to be blocked.
Now that's some basketball IQ.
Meanwhile the play didn't crack Fox Sports Live's top 5. C'mon FS1, support your own product!
Some tough customers on here today, ragging on JJJ rather than getting excited about an MU player making #2 on the highlight reel.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 22, 2015, 09:18:06 AM
Does JJJ know how to use his left hand, always drives right. Easy to guard knowing that. His game has a lot of deficiencies, like can not shoot but thinks he can. Way overrated in high school
particularly his suppose ranking. I hope Wally can show he deserves to play the wing next year.
Seriously, people really need to stop bashing JJJ and then think Wally is going to come in.
JJJ is light years ahead of what Wally was as a sophomore. Literally in another galaxy.
This is proof ESPN is trying to screw us.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 22, 2015, 12:14:00 PM
Seriously, people really need to stop bashing JJJ and then think Wally is going to come in.
JJJ is light years ahead of what Wally was as a sophomore. Literally in another galaxy.
Then you better bring in another wing because I am not sold on JJJ at this point. To skinny, no shot, no left hand, ball IQ? Perfect example, makes great dunk, shows off, remember it still is only 2 points, then the next play totally out of control. Needs some consistency, once he achieves that, I will be on his bandwagon. Somebody has to step up but not sure Duane or JJJ will
do that. Sandy is not quick enough to create his own shot, the other 2 are.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 22, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Then you better bring in another wing because I am not sold on JJJ at this point. To skinny, no shot, no left hand, ball IQ? Perfect example, makes great dunk, shows off, remember it still is only 2 points, then the next play totally out of control. Needs some consistency, once he achieves that, I will be on his bandwagon. Somebody has to step up but not sure Duane or JJJ will
do that. Sandy is not quick enough to create his own shot, the other 2 are.
Guys get better. This isn't pro sports.
The majority of players are going to have pretty big flaws in their games for the first couple of seasons. They will show flashes of being very good/great (the dunk, sandy's teardrop, etc.) and then make some plays that will drive you insane (JJJ not fouling right away on an inbounds in the last 30 sec), Sandy turning it over, etc.
That's the nature of college ball. Always has been.
All valid points. I get that he had a few boneheaded plays, I get that he only one basket...but after being in the doghouse on Saturday, I wouldn't have guessed in a million years that JJJ would've been #2 on Top Plays.
You never know...something as trivial as that, could help with his engagement/motivation/focus/passion.
We need JJJ to get through this season.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 09:14:48 AM
It was an exciting play. But it was just two points. He made a boneheaded play the next time down. That is what is so frustrating about JJJ and why he doesn't play more.
Here's the problem: Going 1 on 3 is NOT always a BAD play in transition when you have the defenders on their heels. JJJ is BEST in transition. There are plenty of very gifted guys athletically, that can weave up court in an loosely defined 1-3 situation and score. JJJ as evidenced by the dunk the play before, was feeling confident, has the athleticism - and quite frankly was that last move away from getting all the way to the rack and very likely scoring.
The challenge is - when you have that kind of ability - it's hard not to use it. Now, when you don't have that kind of ability, you don't even think about it. You may call it boneheaded, which it would be if you don't have the athleticism/skill to convert that on a frequent basis. Ever watch D-Wade, Westbrook, hell even Jerel could go 1-3 in transition and score frequently. I personally don't have issues with aggressive, effort, plays, being made by guys with the requisite skill set resulting in turnovers.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 22, 2015, 12:26:38 PM
Then you better bring in another wing because I am not sold on JJJ at this point. To skinny, no shot, no left hand, ball IQ? Perfect example, makes great dunk, shows off, remember it still is only 2 points, then the next play totally out of control. Needs some consistency, once he achieves that, I will be on his bandwagon. Somebody has to step up but not sure Duane or JJJ will
do that. Sandy is not quick enough to create his own shot, the other 2 are.
JJJ is actually a very similar player to Vander as a sophomore, and skill wise, build wise. Can he make the big step up as Vander did as a junior? Personally, I feel JJJ has just as much skill if not more than Vander had at this point in his career as benchmarked against Vander as a sophomore.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 12:47:44 PM
JJJ is actually a very similar player to Vander as a sophomore, and skill wise, build wise. Can he make the big step up as Vander did as a junior? Personally, I feel JJJ has just as much skill if not more than Vander had at this point in his career as benchmarked against Vander as a sophomore.
Vander made a huge jump from his soph to Junior year to becoming the go to guy. Vander had a better left hand, but when it comes to there shot, both have quirky form in shooting. Hope you are right.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 12:47:44 PM
JJJ is actually a very similar player to Vander as a sophomore, and skill wise, build wise. Can he make the big step up as Vander did as a junior? Personally, I feel JJJ has just as much skill if not more than Vander had at this point in his career as benchmarked against Vander as a sophomore.
Offensively I agree, I think JjJ has more offensive skill than Vander did. Defensively however, I think Vander was years ahead of JjJ as a sophomore.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 22, 2015, 12:52:34 PM
Vander made a huge jump from his soph to Junior year to becoming the go to guy. Vander had a better left hand, but when it comes to there shot, both have quirky form in shooting. Hope you are right.
My mind immediately went to the Davidson game. [Drooling]
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 22, 2015, 12:14:00 PM
Seriously, people really need to stop bashing JJJ and then think Wally is going to come in.
JJJ is light years ahead of what Wally was as a sophomore. Literally in another galaxy.
I don't understand the JjJ ragging either. He is very solid for a top player off the bench. But I wouldn't sleep on Wally either. I'm not saying he will be better than JjJ. Just based on what I've heard from practice is that he is much better than his sophomore numbers would indicate.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 22, 2015, 12:54:04 PM
Offensively I agree, I think JjJ has more offensive skill than Vander did. Defensively however, I think Vander was years ahead of JjJ as a sophomore.
I personally don't feel Vander was a better defender as a sophomore. For all the plaudits Vander's defense garnered, he wasn't an impact defender in the way of statistical metrics.
Quote from: BCHoopster on January 22, 2015, 12:52:34 PM
Vander made a huge jump from his soph to Junior year to becoming the go to guy. Vander had a better left hand, but when it comes to there shot, both have quirky form in shooting. Hope you are right.
I'm not sure Vander had much of a left hand as a sophomore? Recall he still had an incredibly difficult time finishing at the basket - and just don't recall him ever using his left much at MU. Of course Davidson game does come to mind. :)
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 22, 2015, 12:56:56 PM
I don't understand the JjJ ragging either. He is very solid for a top player off the bench. But I wouldn't sleep on Wally either. I'm not saying he will be better than JjJ. Just based on what I've heard from practice is that he is much better than his sophomore numbers would indicate.
Yeah like I've said I would LOVE for that to be true because his athleticism(that we know he has) is incredible. So the complete year off and being with a new team could do wonders for him for sure.
I just don't like people raging our current youngsters we have now but then thinking Wally(who they have probably never seen play in a real game, which I have many times) will come in and jack all there minutes. And I think JJJ while he clearly has a lot of issues is underrated on here.
If(and its a big if right now) he can find some sort of consistent outside shot I think he becomes real good. It would cut down on his forced TO's too because he won't have to feel like pushing it 1 on 4 is his only chance.
Right now though having seen Fr/So versions of both guys JJJ is far and away the better player. Hopefully next year we see that both have made huge jumps because if so...we will be damn good.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
I personally don't feel Vander was a better defender as a sophomore.
Laughable.
Quote from: Wade for President on January 22, 2015, 05:14:34 AM
How many times did you rewind that dunk? Over/under set at four.
(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/T2XZeWuXE7sNZbovlk559oe0wi4=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3327900/jjdunk.0.gif)
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 01:20:45 PM
Laughable.
I know you consistently applaud players that never have any production in the box score ultimately, but please, let's hear your explanation? Let me guess, you are going to try to say Vander was a better on-ball defender? Are we playing man to man this year?
Here they are side by side. JJJ rebounds at a higher rate, steals at a higher rate, blocks shots at a higher rate.
I'm sure you have a bias for Vander being from the Madison area and all, but JJJ and Vander are so similar as players its actually pretty crazy how they stack up side by side.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=vander-blue&i=1&p1=3-jajuan-johnson&vander-blue=2011-2012
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 22, 2015, 01:16:41 PM
Yeah like I've said I would LOVE for that to be true because his athleticism(that we know he has) is incredible. So the complete year off and being with a new team could do wonders for him for sure.
I just don't like people raging our current youngsters we have now but then thinking Wally(who they have probably never seen play in a real game, which I have many times) will come in and jack all there minutes. And I think JJJ while he clearly has a lot of issues is underrated on here.
If(and its a big if right now) he can find some sort of consistent outside shot I think he becomes real good. It would cut down on his forced TO's too because he won't have to feel like pushing it 1 on 4 is his only chance.
Right now though having seen Fr/So versions of both guys JJJ is far and away the better player. Hopefully next year we see that both have made huge jumps because if so...we will be damn good.
An outside shot would definitely be nice. I don't mind the turnovers as much as others. Like Ners, I see the value in an aggressive slasher and that comes at the cost of turnovers. My biggest issue with his game is his defense. I love the steals, but he goes for a steal practically every time the ball is near him. Too many times I have seen him lunge for a steal, only to miss and end up by the half court line. His man than takes the open shot or drives to the hoop. If he could learn to control his impulses on defense, picking his steal attempts wisely....or at least learn how to go for a steal without taking himself out of the defense, I think he could become a plus defender. He's got the length and the quickness for it.
Don't agree with Ners often, but I'd take JJJ's defense over Vander's soph defense. I recall Buzz making a huge deal about it when Vander finally stepped in a took his first charge.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 22, 2015, 02:34:57 PM
Don't agree with Ners often, but I'd take JJJ's defense over Vander's soph defense. I recall Buzz making a huge deal about it when Vander finally stepped in a took his first charge.
JJJ plays a wing in primarily a zone scheme. In fact, he is one of the reasons that Wojo has had to resort to playing zone because his man defense skills are terrible.
Vander was playing in an almost entirely man scheme. The only reason he played as a freshman was because of his defense. While his offense improved as a sophomore, he was still a very good defender. He didn't take many charges because he was guarding guys on the perimeter.
I have mentioned this before, but as a sophomore at UW, he at different parts of the game guarded Jordan Taylor, Mike Bruesewitz and Ben Brust - three completely different players - and did so very well.
You think JJJ could do that now? Cmon...
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 02:40:16 PM
JJJ plays a wing in primarily a zone scheme. In fact, he is one of the reasons that Wojo has had to resort to playing zone because his man defense skills are terrible.
Vander was playing in an almost entirely man scheme. The only reason he played as a freshman was because of his defense. While his offense improved as a sophomore, he was still a very good defender. He didn't take many charges because he was guarding guys on the perimeter.
I have mentioned this before, but as a sophomore at UW, he at different parts of the game guarded Jordan Taylor, Mike Bruesewitz and Ben Brust - three completely different players - and did so very well.
You think JJJ could do that now? Cmon...
Actually, Wojo switched to zone primarily after he saw guys blow by Carlino, Derrick, Duane, and to a lesser extent JJJ. I do believe JJJ is as good of athlete as Vander and has the same aptitude/ability - but hasn't gotten as much game experience to play/prove his value as a defender.
But, I can go with you on your point - yet I just don't think it is laughable to say they aren't in the same area code defensively. I mean at some point, how you rebound, steal and block shots has to matter, right?
Must have been a slow sports night last night.
That dunk is pretty pedestrian.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 22, 2015, 04:06:53 PM
Must have been a slow sports night last night.
That dunk is pretty pedestrian.
Not by MU standards. Rarely do we ever see one of our guards dunk in a half court set off the dribble - that goes back to the days of the Big 3. Vander may have had a few his junior year in the half court off the bounce.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
I personally don't feel Vander was a better defender as a sophomore. For all the plaudits Vander's defense garnered, he wasn't an impact defender in the way of statistical metrics.
Vander played big minutes on a USA National team because of his on ball defense. He guarded the other team's top offensive perimeter player.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 22, 2015, 04:21:18 PM
Vander played big minutes on a USA National team because of his on ball defense. He guarded the other team's top offensive perimeter player.
Vander never passed my eye test. Plus, he had a way longer leash.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 22, 2015, 04:06:53 PM
Must have been a slow sports night last night.
That dunk is pretty pedestrian.
I'm surprised it's as high as number 2, but in real time that dunk was impressive. Over Obekpa to tie the game (I believe) and pretty much out of nowhere.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 02:56:04 PM
Actually, Wojo switched to zone primarily after he saw guys blow by Carlino, Derrick, Duane, and to a lesser extent JJJ. I do believe JJJ is as good of athlete as Vander and has the same aptitude/ability - but hasn't gotten as much game experience to play/prove his value as a defender.
But, I can go with you on your point - yet I just don't think it is laughable to say they aren't in the same area code defensively. I mean at some point, how you rebound, steal and block shots has to matter, right?
Defense is a lot more than rebounds, steals and blocks. Since you were such the player in high school, I thought you would know this.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 04:43:27 PM
Defense is a lot more than rebounds, steals and blocks. Since you were such the player in high school, I thought you would know this.
Considering you were watching even high school games from the bleachers - you should really refrain from being a smart ass. ;D
Quote from: 4th and State on January 22, 2015, 04:29:52 PM
I'm surprised it's as high as number 2, but in real time that dunk was impressive. Over Obekpa to tie the game (I believe) and pretty much out of nowhere.
It was nice and all, but Obepka was a half step late and never really challenged it.
Maybe I am just bitter that it was followed up by the next possession.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 12:45:39 PM
Here's the problem: Going 1 on 3 is NOT always a BAD play in transition when you have the defenders on their heels. JJJ is BEST in transition. There are plenty of very gifted guys athletically, that can weave up court in an loosely defined 1-3 situation and score. JJJ as evidenced by the dunk the play before, was feeling confident, has the athleticism - and quite frankly was that last move away from getting all the way to the rack and very likely scoring.
The challenge is - when you have that kind of ability - it's hard not to use it. Now, when you don't have that kind of ability, you don't even think about it. You may call it boneheaded, which it would be if you don't have the athleticism/skill to convert that on a frequent basis. Ever watch D-Wade, Westbrook, hell even Jerel could go 1-3 in transition and score frequently. I personally don't have issues with aggressive, effort, plays, being made by guys with the requisite skill set resulting in turnovers.
I agree with this analysis. I was happy to see JJJ get back in aggressive transition mode, it was he does well. I wish he had more opportunities to push transition like that. It didn't bother me that the play didn't work any more than someone missing a long 3 pointer. Good try reasonable probability of success , sometimes it doesn't work.
I think the desperation shot he made at the shot clock was running out also showed hustle and court awareness.
It seemed that overall, he was working hard to play within the parameters Wojo set. I think next game we will make a fee of the floaters and will get himself back up to the 21-22 minute level.
Quote from: Texas Western on January 22, 2015, 05:13:41 PM
I agree with this analysis. I was happy to see JJJ get back in aggressive transition mode, it was he does well. I wish he had more opportunities to push transition like that. It didn't bother me that the play didn't work any more than someone missing a long 3 pointer. Good try reasonable probability of success , sometimes it doesn't work.
I think the desperation shot he made at the shot clock was running out also showed hustle and court awareness.
It seemed that overall, he was working hard to play within the parameters Wojo set. I think next game we will make a fee of the floaters and will get himself back up to the 21-22 minute level.
Any chance you can back up the statement that a 1 on 3 results has a "reasonable probability of success"?
I love the JJ to Vander comparison. Good call. First, as sophomores, they can't hit shots. But as for the rest:
Vander was a better defender, but JJ is far and away a better finisher at the basket than Vander was as a sophomore. Vander was bad going to the basket on contested layups, he bricked them a ton, if my memory serves me correct. JJ has also been decent on floaters and his shots are usually at least close, whereas you could tell Vander's shots were off before they even left his hand.
Most of all, I love watching JJ in transition, its fun to watch a kid with the athleticism to make a great play go for it. He's growing, TOs will happen, but he shows promise and we can only hope he continues to improve this year and make a big jump for next year (and if its as a big a jump as Vander, we're in for a treat).
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2015, 05:25:22 PM
Any chance you can back up the statement that a 1 on 3 results has a "reasonable probability of success"?
You wouldn't understand it, as you personally probably have never had any success doing it in a game of basketball. It is not uncommon at all for athletically gifted guys to push off a missed shot, in transition, dribble through 3, unsettled defenders, and convert for a basket - at a higher rate of success than a typical 3 point shooting percentage at the college level. Additionally, many times in pushing the action in that type of situation you will get fouled and go to the free throw line.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 05:50:49 PM
You wouldn't understand it, as you personally probably have never had any success doing it in a game of basketball. It is not uncommon at all for athletically gifted guys to push off a missed shot, in transition, dribble through 3, unsettled defenders, and convert for a basket - at a higher rate of success than a typical 3 point shooting percentage at the college level. Additionally, many times in pushing the action in that type of situation you will get fouled and go to the free throw line.
Just on the construct of TW's statements and sentence structure, he wasn't comparing the 3 point attempt to the 1 on 3. He was simply stating that a 1 on 3 has a "reasonable probability of success."
Sometimes you just sound nuts with some of your statements. Other times you're just an ass with statements like "You wouldn't understand it, as you personally probably have never had any success doing it in a game of basketball" and other things you've said to people. Try not being such a huge prick.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2015, 05:53:59 PM
Just on the construct of TW's statements and sentence structure, he wasn't comparing the 3 point attempt to the 1 on 3. He was simply stating that a 1 on 3 has a "reasonable probability of success."
Sometimes you just sound nuts with some of your statements. Other times you're just an ass with statements like "You wouldn't understand it, as you personally probably have never had any success doing it in a game of basketball" and other things you've said to people. Try not being such a huge prick.
Look you and others here have made plenty of prick statements. And quite frankly you and the others make some incredibly nuts statements. I'm sorry your die hard devotion to our head coach last season, and now this season isn't translating into more wins to help validate and support your/their position(s). Just as Mike McCarthy made plenty of mistakes in the Green Bay game against Seattle - just because a guy is paid millions doesn't mean he always gets it right. Period. Just like you nor I get things right at all times.
Additionally, for context, a guy like Steve Wojo could never FATHOM going 1 on 3 in a situation like JJJ did last night - because he didn't have the athletic ability to do it, and pull it off with any success or regularity. So, although Wojo played the game at a high level, it doesn't necessarily mean that he can understand what the thought process of JJJ may be in that situation. But I give Wojo credit, as I don't think he pulled JJJ after that turnover - which showed some understanding of the player's ability as well as situation.
You have to let your athletically gifted guys, use their gifts - you cannot coach that out of them. Yes along the way, there will be frustrating turnovers at times, but there also will be brilliance as well.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 06:23:01 PM
Additionally, for context, a guy like Steve Wojo could never FATHOM going 1 on 3 in a situation like JJJ did last night - because he didn't have the athletic ability to do it, and pull it off with any success or regularity. So, although Wojo played the game at a high level, it doesn't necessarily mean that he can understand what the thought process of JJJ may be in that situation. But I give Wojo credit, as I don't think he pulled JJJ after that turnover - which showed some understanding of the player's ability as well as situation.
You have to let your athletically gifted guys, use their gifts - you cannot coach that out of them. Yes along the way, there will be frustrating turnovers at times, but there also will be brilliance as well.
I have yet to see JJJ once pull off successfully going 1 on 3 much less with "regularity."
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 06:44:08 PM
I have yet to see JJJ once pull off successfully going 1 on 3 much less with "regularity."
I wouldn't expect you to. You miss a lot of nuances in the games.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 06:59:35 PM
I wouldn't expect you to. You miss a lot of nuances in the games.
Have you seen him do it? Because going "one on three" isn't exactly a nuance...it's pretty damn obvious.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 07:05:48 PM
Have you seen him do it? Because going "one on three" isn't exactly a nuance...it's pretty damn obvious.
Sultan, please. There is no point.
Quote from: 79Warrior on January 22, 2015, 07:19:51 PM
Sultan, please. There is no point.
yes, after all, Ners played in HS.
We could never possibly understand the game like he does.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 07:05:48 PM
Have you seen him do it? Because going "one on three" isn't exactly a nuance...it's pretty damn obvious.
Yes, I've seen JJJ be very successful in transition going against multiple defenders, along with going at multiple defenders in half court sets with success.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 22, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
yes, after all, Ners played in HS.
We could never possibly understand the game like he does.
One night and one night only ladies and gentleman!
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 07:29:58 PM
Yes, I've seen JJJ be very successful in transition going against multiple defenders, along with going at multiple defenders in half court sets with success.
Name one time he has gone one on three on a fast break and been successful. Just one.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 08:16:21 PM
Name one time he has gone one on three on a fast break and been successful. Just one.
Sorry, I don't have a photographic memory. What I know is that JJJ is absolutely at his best in transition, attacking the basket, and has done so many times beating one, two and at times three defenders in the process to score.
I know you felt it was boneheaded. I know you value guys who do virtually nothing on the court, other than not make mistakes, but contribute nothing to the box score. It's cool. Nothing wrong with liking gritty, hustle and glue guys. You need a few of those on every team. You just don't max their minutes. LOL.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 08:24:14 PM
Sorry, I don't have a photographic memory. What I know is that JJJ is absolutely at his best in transition, attacking the basket, and has done so many times beating one, two and at times three defenders in the process to score.
I know you felt it was boneheaded. I know you value guys who do virtually nothing on the court, other than not make mistakes, but contribute nothing to the box score. It's cool. Nothing wrong with liking gritty, hustle and glue guys. You need a few of those on every team. You just don't max their minutes. LOL.
Yeah I figured you couldn't. Time to move on.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 22, 2015, 08:26:52 PM
Yeah I figured you couldn't. Time to move on.
Look, if you aren't able to see that JJJ scores about 90% of his points beating guys off the dribble, in transition, while attacking the basket - don't know what to tell you. Because he scores this way 90% of the time I can't specifically isolate an example of how JJJ has been effective 1 on 3. Does he score 1 on 3 for most of his points? OF course not. And generally not 1 on 2 either. Yet he does and has.
The whole point goes back to you saying it was boneheaded for JJJ to be aggressive like that in transition after his dunk the previous play. What would be boneheaded would be watching your boy try something like that. Actually, I wish he would, as maybe for once in the last two years we'd again have some semblance of a fast break/transition game.
I thought it was boneheaded because I doubt that it is a statistically good decision. That's all. I agree Jjj's at his best when attacking the basket in transition or on the bounce
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 08:24:14 PM
I know you value guys who do virtually nothing on the court, other than not make mistakes, but contribute nothing to the box score.
6 assists, 7 rebounds = contribute nothing to the box score
The dumbness keeps getting dumber
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 22, 2015, 05:25:22 PM
Any chance you can back up the statement that a 1 on 3 results has a "reasonable probability of success"?
First, if you carefully watch the replay of the tape , he blew by 3 guys on the dunk. Second , all most all if his points this year have been on drives through heavy traffic. Third, he was in the open court and with his speed he felt he could get to the rack. Bottom line a slasher , driver , transition guy is no different than a jump shooter. When a jump shooter misses a long shot he is labeled a chucker , when a driver misses he gets labeled bone headed. JJJ is very good in transition and driving and I am confident he gets a green light from Wojo in that regard.
Quote from: Texas Western on January 22, 2015, 10:14:04 PM
First, if you carefully watch the replay of the tape , he blew by 3 guys on the dunk. Second , all most all if his points this year have been on drives through heavy traffic. Third, he was in the open court and with his speed he felt he could get to the rack. Bottom line a slasher , driver , transition guy is no different than a jump shooter. When a jump shooter misses a long shot he is labeled a chucker , when a driver misses he gets labeled bone headed. JJJ is very good in transition and driving and I am confident he gets a green light from Wojo in that regard.
I don't disagree with anything you said here. But, that wasn't really an answer to my question.
He's horrible. He's even worse than I thought, and I was the lone wolf this summer questioning how he was a top 100 kid and why so many on this board were so excited about him. He stinks. Minutes keep going down, never plays well against quality opponents, perimeter shot is atrocious (and that may be understating it).
I truly believe Wojo has determined he's not in any way, shape, or form, part of MU's basketball future. The handwriting's on the wall. He'll be gone quickly when this season ends.
Four open scholarships for 2015-16, good.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 22, 2015, 11:40:48 PM
He's horrible. He's even worse than I thought, and I was the lone wolf this summer questioning how he was a top 100 kid and why so many on this board were so excited about him. He stinks. Minutes keep going down, never plays well against quality opponents, perimeter shot is atrocious (and that may be understating it).
I truly believe Wojo has determined he's not in any way, shape, or form, part of MU's basketball future. The handwriting's on the wall. He'll be gone quickly when this season ends.
Four open scholarships for 2015-16, good.
I'm sorry, but this is a dumb hyperbolic comment. People have no idea what to expect from top 100 recruits. I'm doing a little research for a PT article. For part of it I calculated the average stat line for a top 100 recruit from the class of 2013.
22.5 mpg, 8.6 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.0 s/bpg, 1.4 tpg, .248 3P
Compare that to JjJ's stat line:
21.0 mpg, 8.1 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 1.9 tpg, .171 3P
JjJ's numbers are slightly less than the average 2013 top 100 player. He was certainly overranked at 32. But to say he didn't belong in the top 100 simply isn't true. To suggest he's being forced out of the program is even more off the wall.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 22, 2015, 09:28:04 AM
JJJ's dunk was awesome, but it counted for exactly the same 2 points as his careless turnover seconds later cost us. If he learns that the sky's the limit. But until he does he hurts us on balance.
Bingo and he is not the only turnover expert.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=400588424
It was a great dunk. JJJ played 12 minutes, shot 1-5 from the floor, 0-1 from 3 and had 2 TO's. He had 5 rebounds. More than Luke, more than Juan. (Steve with 9, Derrick with 7) In other words, he contributed, he played hard, he made a great dunk. I hope he continues to work hard.
Quote from: Windyplayer on January 22, 2015, 12:54:31 PM
My mind immediately went to the Davidson game. [Drooling]
Vander was horrible in the Davidson game.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on January 23, 2015, 07:01:10 AM
Vander was horrible in the Davidson game.
He was our leading scorer and hit several big shots, one of which being the game winner. I'll take that any day out of Jajuannaman.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 23, 2015, 01:08:29 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a dumb hyperbolic comment. People have no idea what to expect from top 100 recruits. I'm doing a little research for a PT article. For part of it I calculated the average stat line for a top 100 recruit from the class of 2013.
22.5 mpg, 8.6 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 1.5 apg, 1.0 s/bpg, 1.4 tpg, .248 3P
Compare that to JjJ's stat line:
21.0 mpg, 8.1 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 1.8 apg, 1.2 spg, 1.9 tpg, .171 3P
JjJ's numbers are slightly less than the average 2013 top 100 player. He was certainly overranked at 32. But to say he didn't belong in the top 100 simply isn't true. To suggest he's being forced out of the program is even more off the wall.
His minutes have been decreasing in conference play. He had a DNP just two games ago. Wojo and this staff didn't recruit him. Cohen strongly appears to be on the fast track to taking many of his minutes.
If you can't see this guy is just plain not a good player, and where this is headed, than you're either closing your eyes to reality, or are clueless. One of the two.
JJJ's ability maybe belongs at the Horizon League level. Maybe.
It's hilarious to see the people here trying to hold on to him being good and a future contributor in this program like their first born, when all evidence suggests the contrary.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 08:58:11 AM
His minutes have been decreasing in conference play. He had a DNP just two games ago. Wojo and this staff didn't recruit him. Cohen strongly appears to be on the fast track to taking many of his minutes.
If you can't see this guy is just plain not a good player, and where this is headed, than you're either closing your eyes to reality, or are clueless. One of the two.
JJJ's ability maybe belongs at the Horizon League level. Maybe.
It's hilarious to see the people here trying to hold on to him being good and a future contributor in this program like their first born, when all evidence suggests the contrary.
3 weeks ago Wojo didn't even think Sandy was good enough to play against DePaul.
Now Sandy is the future and JJJ is no good?
Maybe turn down the hyperbole. These are young players. There are going to be some ups and downs. Think big picture.
I'll add that he's competing for minutes against all of seven other scholarship players. If there was ever an opportunity for a player this is it. And what's happened, his shot has continued to be about at Derrick Wilson's level, and his minutes have decreased significantly since Big East play started ( the one blip being against Providence).
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 09:27:02 AM
3 weeks ago Wojo didn't even think Sandy was good enough to play against DePaul.
Now Sandy is the future and JJJ is no good?
Maybe turn down the hyperbole. These are young players. There are going to be some ups and downs. Think big picture.
Here's the difference - Sandy is a true freshman. JJJ is a sophomore in his second semester now. Coaches often don't trust freshman in early parts of a season. And now there minutes are going in opposite directions. Sandy was on the floor in crunch time against SJU.
Not only that, Wojo recruited Sandy back to MU, didn't he?
I am thinking big picture. The difference between me and others here is I don't keep hoping against hope when my eyes tell me what is obvious.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 09:32:53 AM
Here's the difference - Sandy is a true freshman. JJJ is a sophomore in his second semester now. Coaches often don't trust freshman in early parts of a season. And now there minutes are going in opposite directions. Sandy was on the floor in crunch time against SJU.
Not only that, Wojo recruited Sandy back to MU, didn't he?
I am thinking big picture. The difference between me and others here is I don't keep hoping against hope when my eyes tell me what is obvious.
I'm not saying your eyes are wrong (that's a different debate).
What I'm saying is: You're taking too small of the sample size and projecting too far.
These are young players. They are going to look great sometimes, and other times they will look really bad. That's part of the growth.
Go back and look at the Luke Fischer thread. Some people were enamored with him and expectations went through the roof after his first few games. 1 month later, and we're getting a better picture of who he is as a player. He's got some holes in his game, but still a lot of potential.
If JJJ barely plays the rest of the season, and he's bad, then yes, you'll certainly have an argument. But, right now, it's a little early for that.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 09:39:20 AM
I'm not saying your eyes are wrong (that's a different debate).
What I'm saying is: You're taking too small of the sample size and projecting too far.
These are young players. They are going to look great sometimes, and other times they will look really bad. That's part of the growth.
Go back and look at the Luke Fischer thread. Some people were enamored with him and expectations went through the roof after his first few games. 1 month later, and we're getting a better picture of who he is as a player. He's got some holes in his game, but still a lot of potential.
If JJJ barely plays the rest of the season, and he's bad, then yes, you'll certainly have an argument. But, right now, it's a little early for that.
A "small sample size" I'm taking?? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
He's played 38 games at MU. The two MU teams he's been on have played 50 games, so he's had 12 DNP- Coaches decision in 12 of the 50. He's never had an injury keep him from playing.
What exactly is your idea of a worthy sample size for a player? OMG.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 09:46:48 AM
A "small sample size" I'm taking?? :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
He's played 38 games at MU. The two MU teams he's been on have played 50 games, so he's had 12 DNP- Coaches decision in 12 of the 50. He's never had an injury keep him from playing.
What exactly is your idea of a worthy sample size for a player? OMG.
He's played LESS than 1/2 of his college career. This isn't Kentucky. Guys usually have big holes in their game their first 2 seasons.
When JJJ was playing well earlier this season, I don't recall you telling everybody that it was a mirage. (you might have, I honestly don't know).
My point is, it's easy to pile on a young player when he's playing bad.
1 month ago, Sandy didn't even get off of the bench. Now he's better. 1 month ago, JJJ looked pretty good, now he's struggling. 1 month ago, Luke looked amazing, now he's struggling to adjust.
Things change quickly with younger players. Probably should let him finish his soph. year before writing him off.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 22, 2015, 08:50:54 PM
Look, if you aren't able to see that JJJ scores about 90% of his points beating guys off the dribble, in transition, while attacking the basket - don't know what to tell you. Because he scores this way 90% of the time I can't specifically isolate an example of how JJJ has been effective 1 on 3. Does he score 1 on 3 for most of his points? OF course not. And generally not 1 on 2 either. Yet he does and has.
I'd actually agree with this. He scores 90% of his points like that. But that's the problem. He scores 90% of his points like that because his three point shot is way off and he doesn't have a midrange game.
Confused why you say it like it's a good thing...