It continues to reaffirm my belief that while still very unlikely we could still win 3 straight at MSG in this conference. Of course we would have to get out of the bottom so that we don't play 4 games but outside of Nova and SJU we can hang with every team.
The fact we can't close out these road games makes 3 straight in one weekend unlikely..but its not a pipe dream like DePaul faces every year lol.
Said this last week. But man shame this is our "rebuilding" time. Could you imagine that DJO and Jae team in this league? Might win every game by 15.
I'm encouraged. Duane is going to be real good. Sandy and Luke are going to be solid players for a couple more years. Teams play hard. They defend.
This is a limited team. But I like that Wojo is laying the groundwork. This team isn't going anywhere this year. They weren't going anywhere had they played JJJ and won. Long term lessons are way more important right now.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 17, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
I'm encouraged. Duane is going to be real good. Sandy and Luke are going to be solid players for a couple more years. Teams play hard. They defend.
This is a limited team. But I like that Wojo is laying the groundwork. This team isn't going anywhere this year. They weren't going anywhere had they played JJJ and won. Long term lessons are way more important right now.
This. Very few people seem to understand that this season for the long term progress. This year should be taken on a game by game basis and people cant get too excited or ticked off whether we win or lose.
Duane had a rough second half. Moreso than the others.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 17, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
I'm encouraged. Duane is going to be real good. Sandy and Luke are going to be solid players for a couple more years. Teams play hard. They defend.
This is a limited team. But I like that Wojo is laying the groundwork. This team isn't going anywhere this year. They weren't going anywhere had they played JJJ and won. Long term lessons are way more important right now.
I think the good thing about how hard the team plays is that as soon as next year with more bodies, talent and experience we should be set up pretty well.
That's assuming they play with the same intensity and drive.
What I see is a team that really hustles, plays hard but with Juan, Derrick on the court you are always playing 3 on 5. The inability to get the ball to Fisher is obvious, Carlino must have had 3 turnovers trying. Poor Steve Taylor brings nothing, shell of what he once was. Freshman will get lots of time next year, with NN having health issues, I am sure now he needs to add a player or two. Tough loss, Carlino did his best. Really should be Ellensons team next year.
Quote from: GoldenZebra on January 17, 2015, 01:48:44 PM
Very few people seem to understand that this season for the long term progress. This year should be taken on a game by game basis and people cant get too excited or ticked off whether we win or lose.
This post should be in the strawman hall of fame.
I think we're fine. We're going to have a very solid program in the years to come.
Do you guys remember Omaha and NJIT? Our coach built multiple zone defenses that now give teams fits ON THE FLY. When we've got more quality players we'll be a solid threat in the league and in the NCAAs.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 17, 2015, 01:43:50 PM
I'm encouraged. Duane is going to be real good. Sandy and Luke are going to be solid players for a couple more years. Teams play hard. They defend.
This is a limited team. But I like that Wojo is laying the groundwork. This team isn't going anywhere this year. They weren't going anywhere had they played JJJ and won. Long term lessons are way more important right now.
Since this season is about "long term lessons" and not about winning, then there isn't much point spending hours and hours and hours watching every minute of every game. Hoping the children learn life lessons isn't in my mind when watching MU play. I thought this was big time college basketball and the coach's job is to win games.
On the other hand, I suppose establishing his "culture" is what's most important to Wojo this season, and wins and loses are secondary. Fine. That better not be the case next season. Coaches are ultimately judged on wins and loses.
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 17, 2015, 02:12:07 PM
Since this season is about "long term lessons" and not about winning, then there isn't much point spending hours and hours and hours watching every minute of every game. Hoping the children learn life lessons isn't in my mind when watching MU play. I thought this was big time college basketball and the coach's job is to win games.
On the other hand, I suppose establishing his "culture" is what's most important to Wojo this season, and wins and loses are secondary. Fine. That better not be the case next season. Coaches are ultimately judged on wins and loses.
If establishing his culture is more important than wins and losses Marquette hired the wrong coach.
I'll venture that neither matty nor warriorhal have played sports in a winning program.
Quote from: jsglow on January 17, 2015, 02:16:10 PM
I'll venture that neither matty nor warriorhal have played sports in a winning program.
So benching a player to teach him a lesson and hurt your team's chance of winning leads to victory over the long haul. Got it. Hope you're right :)
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 17, 2015, 02:12:07 PM
Since this season is about "long term lessons" and not about winning, then there isn't much point spending hours and hours and hours watching every minute of every game.
Then don't. I don't care either way.
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 17, 2015, 02:24:09 PM
So benching a player to teach him a lesson and hurt your team's chance of winning leads to victory over the long haul. Got it. Hope you're right :)
It absolutely is the right thing to do.
I don't understand how people don't get this. If you have a player not doing whatever it is the coach expects him to do in order to get playing time, you must bench him. If you don't, you reinforce the idea that you don't have to practice or listen to the coach in order to get playing time. You may win the game right in front of you, but you will lose more in the future as a result.
We can argue all day about how severe the transgression needs to be to deserve a benching or how long/short the benching should be, but the only ones with all the information are the players and coaches. I trust the coaches' judgement.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:14:06 PM
If establishing his culture is more important than wins and losses Marquette hired the wrong coach.
Steve Lavin and Ben Howland would agree with you. Most other Division 1 coaches wouldn't.
Well this thread went off track quickly
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 02:36:03 PM
Steve Lavin and Ben Howland would agree with you. Most other Division 1 coaches wouldn't.
+1.
I'll bet Wojo asks himself often, 'What would Coach K do right now?' I think we know the answer.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 02:36:03 PM
Steve Lavin and Ben Howland would agree with you. Most other Division 1 coaches wouldn't.
I'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
[quote
I'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
[/quote]
I disagree. Yes, Wojo is coaching to win every game but he also has to implement his system and culture. If JJJ didn't practice at Wojo's expectation level then he must sit him. Playing him today would tell the team practice habits don't matter and Wojo might lose the team. Message needed to be sent to both to JJJ directly and the rest of the team as well.
As for comparing Buzz in year 1 to Wojo year 1, that's really not fair. Buzz inherited James, McNeal, Matthews and Hayward. This is year one of a total rebuild. Buzz had a good run but his 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes weren't good enough to sustain that success. With Vander leaving early and Duane getting injured, MU bottomed out last year and the team remains at that level. Much like Crean had to rebuild from the Deane era, Wojo is rebuilding with a limited roster.
With Crean, he needed until year 3 to make the tourney. I think Wojo needs to make the tourney next year and we have a chance to be pretty good in two years. We have a couple pieces on the roster, the first recruiting class looks good and Wojo has 3 more open scholarships. Add in Steve Taylor and that's 4 over the next two years assuming no departures. Find a good PG, another wing scorer/shooter, another rebounder and BPA. I expected to be mediocre this year and we are. But years 2, 3, and 4 I will be expecting MU to be dancing.
Quote from: Lazars Headband on January 17, 2015, 03:33:21 PM
[quote
I'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
I disagree. Yes, Wojo is coaching to win every game but he also has to implement his system and culture. If JJJ didn't practice at Wojo's expectation level then he must sit him. Playing him today would tell the team practice habits don't matter and Wojo might lose the team. Message needed to be sent to both to JJJ directly and the rest of the team as well.
As for comparing Buzz in year 1 to Wojo year 1, that's really not fair. Buzz inherited James, McNeal, Matthews and Hayward. This is year one of a total rebuild. Buzz had a good run but his 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes weren't good enough to sustain that success. With Vander leaving early and Duane getting injured, MU bottomed out last year and the team remains at that level. Much like Crean had to rebuild from the Deane era, Wojo is rebuilding with a limited roster.
With Crean, he needed until year 3 to make the tourney. I think Wojo needs to make the tourney next year and we have a chance to be pretty good in two years. We have a couple pieces on the roster, the first recruiting class looks good and Wojo has 3 more open scholarships. Add in Steve Taylor and that's 4 over the next two years assuming no departures. Find a good PG, another wing scorer/shooter, another rebounder and BPA. I expected to be mediocre this year and we are. But years 2, 3, and 4 I will be expecting MU to be dancing.
Good post, but I never compared Buzz to Wojo. I don't have the animosity for Buzz like some on here but I probably was more critical of him than most when he was our coach. There seems to be a lot of people here who get enamored with the shiny new toy simply because it's new. Wojo is hardly infallible just like Buzz.
Sorry MattyV, the Buzz-Wojo comparison comment was meant for another poster though I can't find the post where I read that. I mistakenly omitted that point.
To reference the original post, I actually think we could compete with SJU this year. Last year they dominated us on the road and beat us at the BC in 2OT, but that was mostly because we consistently got beat off the dribble. SJU is a good matchup for our zone, as Harrison is really their only reliable shooter. Rebounding could be a huge issue though.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:58:58 PM
I'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
I agree with this point.
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on January 17, 2015, 05:52:50 PM
To reference the original post, I actually think we could compete with SJU this year. Last year they dominated us on the road and beat us at the BC in 2OT, but that was mostly because we consistently got beat off the dribble. SJU is a good matchup for our zone, as Harrison is really their only reliable shooter. Rebounding could be a huge issue though.
St. John's plays 6 players - 5 seniors and a junior. If you are correct, then Wojo has done an absolutely unbelievable coaching job this year.
We have
two players on the team with experience as starters in college before this season while the SJU players have been together for 4 years.
I have a hard time understanding some of the posts this year (not referring to you, MU Eagle) when we are competitive almost every game with a severely undermanned and inexperienced roster.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:58:58 PM
I'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
You do realize that the man's motto for this program is "Win Every Day," right?
Quote from: MUEagle1090 on January 17, 2015, 05:52:50 PM
To reference the original post, I actually think we could compete with SJU this year. Last year they dominated us on the road and beat us at the BC in 2OT, but that was mostly because we consistently got beat off the dribble. SJU is a good matchup for our zone, as Harrison is really their only reliable shooter. Rebounding could be a huge issue though.
Very good point on their lack of shooting but what worries me is the extreme length and athleticism they have. SJU isn't a very good "team" in that they are not very sound a lot but they are the type who should give us fits. I mean we are breaking down against Creighton, DePaul and Xavier. Obepka is going to have a field day.
Then eventually all our misses and TO's lead to fast breaks for them
The match up I just don't think is a good one for us at all.
Quote from: brandx on January 17, 2015, 10:12:44 PM
I have a hard time understanding some of the posts this year (not referring to you, MU Eagle) when we are competitive almost every game with a severely undermanned and inexperienced roster.
+1000
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 17, 2015, 02:12:07 PM
Since this season is about "long term lessons" and not about winning, then there isn't much point spending hours and hours and hours watching every minute of every game. Hoping the children learn life lessons isn't in my mind when watching MU play. I thought this was big time college basketball and the coach's job is to win games.
On the other hand, I suppose establishing his "culture" is what's most important to Wojo this season, and wins and loses are secondary. Fine. That better not be the case next season. Coaches are ultimately judged on wins and loses.
Sounds like you don't understand or don't want to accept what is necessary to win.
Wojo is very concerned about winning as was Williams. Like us they love the game but they also want the big paycheck which is a huge in insentive to win.
The problem was/is we have/had a number of immature players that have/had some talent but just do not understand the focus, attention to detail and dedication necessary to win. If players followed what coaches teach based on what they are told the first time, anyone could coach. The problem is coaches deal with immature individuals that need positive and negative reinforcement to change behavior in a positive direction. Many immature players are simply one-on-one, mistake prone, stars in their own mind or those who need to buck up. And, yes some just want to have fun but don't understand the necessary sacrifice to be a winner.
Butler shows year in and year out teams can win with average talent that buy into basic concepts most coaches teach. Recruiting players that will accept change in their approach apparently was not a strong characteric of Buzz's recruiting process. Wojo is trying various techniques to try and effectuate positive change in the players but some just do not get it. Derrick gets it, so while he is likely the least talented, he plays to show work effort is rewarded and since he protects the ball and plays reasonable defense. If some of our "stars" played better M-to-M D and protected the ball we would have a much better team and they would play a lot more.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:58:58 PMI'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
I agree with this. Wojo should be trying to win now. No, we aren't going to win a title, but every game, every time out, we should be trying to win. But so far, I haven't seen anything to convince me that Wojo isn't trying to win now. What...because he benched Jajuan? If the kid did something to deserve benching, then sit his ass so it doesn't happen again.
Was Buzz not trying to win when he benched Junior at Madison? Or when he benched Mayo, DJO, and others for a half at WVU? Part of the game is about getting everyone to be on the same page at the same time. If that takes benching a guy for a road game in January so he is up with the program by the time you get to MSG in March, I'm all for it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 18, 2015, 08:41:58 AM
I agree with this. Wojo should be trying to win now. No, we aren't going to win a title, but every game, every time out, we should be trying to win. But so far, I haven't seen anything to convince me that Wojo isn't trying to win now. What...because he benched Jajuan? If the kid did something to deserve benching, then sit his ass so it doesn't happen again.
Was Buzz not trying to win when he benched Junior at Madison? Or when he benched Mayo, DJO, and others for a half at WVU? Part of the game is about getting everyone to be on the same page at the same time. If that takes benching a guy for a road game in January so he is up with the program by the time you get to MSG in March, I'm all for it.
Thanks Brew because prior to this whole topic getting out of control I simply made the suggestion that a first half benching could have probably had the same effect with JJJ and not left a depleted roster with seven players in a little foul which may have impacted the outcome of the game.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on January 17, 2015, 02:58:58 PM
I'll rephrase. If Wojo is looking at this year in any way other than 'win now' then we hired the wrong coach. Prior seasons don't translate into future seasons. This season and this team deserve a coach who is committed to winning as many games as possible this year.
This I definitely agree with. I don't think for a second that Wojo isn't trying everything he can to win this season. I've been impressed with his willingness to change defensive strategies and adjust playing time based on who's performing. I laughed last season at people who said we needed to play for the future and bench all the seniors.
This being said, I am ok with a coach who uses the bench to teach a kid that he needs to bring it more in practice. As MU82 said in another post, sometimes you need to be willing to lose today to win the pennant tomorrow. Maybe a benching for the first half would have been all JjJ needed. I don't know. I trust Wojo because he has the experience and has all of the information of this particular case.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 17, 2015, 02:35:33 PM
I don't understand how people don't get this. If you have a player not doing whatever it is the coach expects him to do in order to get playing time, you must bench him. If you don't, you reinforce the idea that you don't have to practice or listen to the coach in order to get playing time. You may win the game right in front of you, but you will lose more in the future as a result.
We can argue all day about how severe the transgression needs to be to deserve a benching or how long/short the benching should be, but the only ones with all the information are the players and coaches. I trust the coaches' judgement.
Well said. To say Wojo is not interested in winning is a falsehood. The problem is he knows if he does not change behavior he will not be a consistent winner. To make an omelet you need to break a few eggs/bad habits. Benching is one of just a few options Wojo has. Al also used benching but the need in those days was not as great as today's instant gratification or I quit attitude of some players. What is more disappointing is that these guys have been around almost 2 years and they still don't get it. Patience is going to run out by the fans and the coaches if things don't change in the next few games for those who are not committed to the program.
Wojo wants to win. He's fiercely competitive, I'd guess much more competitive than matty, Hal, etc. He's also fiercely principled and won't sacrifice principle in order to win, unlike, I guess, matty, Hal, etc. I'm with Wojo.
Quote from: Class71 on January 18, 2015, 01:59:45 PM
Well said. To say Wojo is not interested in winning is a falsehood. The problem is he knows if he does not change behavior he will not be a consistent winner. To make an omelet you need to break a few eggs/bad habits. Benching is one of just a few options Wojo has. Al also used benching but the need in those days was not as great as today's instant gratification or I quit attitude of some players. What is more disappointing is that these guys have been around almost 2 years and they still don't get it. Patience is going to run out by the fans and the coaches if things don't change in the next few games for those who are not committed to the program.
All well and good. The problem is with the attitude of some of the players Buzz recruited--unwilling to work hard in practice every day. I'll assume going forward that this will not be a problem with the players Wojo recruits since they should know what will be expected of them.
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 18, 2015, 02:48:58 PM
All well and good. The problem is with the attitude of some of the players Buzz recruited--unwilling to work hard in practice every day. I'll assume going forward that this will not be a problem with the players Wojo recruits since they should know what will be expected of them.
I wouldn't assume that. Wojo has already had one of his recruits transfer on him. There will always be misses no matter who the coach is.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 18, 2015, 02:53:31 PM
I wouldn't assume that. Wojo has already had one of his recruits transfer on him. There will always be misses no matter who the coach is.
His first batch of recruits aren't here yet--unless you count Cohen who he "re-recruited"--so don't know who you are referring to.
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 18, 2015, 03:16:49 PM
His first batch of recruits aren't here yet--unless you count Cohen who he "re-recruited"--so don't know who you are referring to.
Gabe Levin
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 18, 2015, 03:19:24 PM
Gabe Levin
Oh yeah, already forgot about him. Transferred in, transferred out. Thanks.
Quote from: WarriorHal on January 18, 2015, 03:38:45 PM
Oh yeah, already forgot about him. Transferred in, transferred out. Thanks.
Doesn't count.