MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: HutchwasClutch on December 09, 2014, 09:03:56 PM
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A Coach K protege inheriting a kid who can't/won't play defense, won't pass the ball on offense, seriously, this was a square peg trying to be jammed in a round hole. Another flawed Buzz recruit, talent, yes, obvious flaws in their game, yes even more- emphatically.
The purging of the attitudes and crap Buzz was willing to bring in continues. Good for Wojo.
The only reason I'm mildly surprise is his Milwaukee roots and that when Buzz left, he was one of the guys who left no doubt quickly he was staying at MU.
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I honestly cannot find fault with Buzz for recruiting Deonte. Lots of offensive promise, and a defensive challenge any teacher/coach would love to work with. Just didn't happen last year, nor again this year, as well as the wrenching loss to Deonte's family to compound the problems. Don't put it on Buzz any more than on Wojo.
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I honestly cannot find fault with Buzz for recruiting Deonte. Lots of offensive promise, and a defensive challenge any teacher/coach would love to work with. Just didn't happen last year, nor again this year, as well as the wrenching loss to Deonte's family to compound the problems. Don't put it on Buzz any more than on Wojo.
Burton's body language and effort on D is what was disturbing and why I think many coaches wouldn't have taken him. I don't think he had any interest in playing much D except slapping at the ball. It's one thing if a kid is lacking on defense, but is willing to work at it and wants to be good on that end of the floor. I can see wanting to take on that kind of a work in progress. Defense just seems to be something you have to do when you're not on offense to him.
Plus, passing was such a rare occurrence when he touched the ball. Another area lacking in his game that I would think would turn off many (not saying all or most) coaches at the high D-1 level.
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ERRR.... Why Deonte?
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ERRR.... Why Deonte?
Addition by subtraction Johnny.
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A Coach K protege inheriting a kid who can't/won't play defense, won't pass the ball on offense, seriously, this was a square peg trying to be jammed in a round hole. Another flawed Buzz recruit, talent, yes, obvious flaws in their game, yes even more- emphatically.
The purging of the attitudes and crap Buzz was willing to bring in continues. Good for Wojo.
The only reason I'm mildly surprise is his Milwaukee roots and that when Buzz left, he was one of the guys who left no doubt quickly he was staying at MU.
OK this is really uncalled for. Deonte wasn't well coached, but he is a real smart kid who recently lost his mother and from everything I heard is a great teammate. Buzz wasn't simply "willing to bring him in." He deservedly got in on his own merits.
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OK this is really uncalled for. Deonte wasn't well coached, but he is a real smart kid who recently lost his mother and from everything I heard is a great teammate. Buzz wasn't simply "willing to bring him in." He deservedly got in on his own merits.
Ditto
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OK this is really uncalled for. Deonte wasn't well coached, but he is a real smart kid who recently lost his mother and from everything I heard is a great teammate. Buzz wasn't simply "willing to bring him in." He deservedly got in on his own merits.
Please quote me correctly. My comment about players Buzz brought in the program was not specific to Burton alone and was clearly written that way. Don't change it by inserting "him" to tailor it to how you want to rip my comment.
BUrton doesn't pass or play any defense, nor did he ever show interest in either while at MU. Buzz brought him in because he is very gifted offensively, but as I stated, his game has serious flaws that I'm not sure he has interest in correcting. His play didn't suggest he had interest in correcting them, and Wojo's remarks leading up to and including his departure today suggest further he's not losing any sleep over him leaving now.
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OK this is really uncalled for. Deonte wasn't well coached, but he is a real smart kid who recently lost his mother and from everything I heard is a great teammate. Buzz wasn't simply "willing to bring him in." He deservedly got in on his own merits.
By the way, clarify who he wasn't well coached by?
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Hutch-
I'm not supporting Buzz when I say this, but call me skeptical that Wojo will be able to 1) achieve Buzz's level of post season success 2) win a BE regular season championship even in this watered down Big East and 3) consistently bring NBA talent to this team.
Be dismissive of Buzz and even Crean if you want, but we got lucky with lightning in a bottle with Buzz once. Based on other former Duke assistants moving on to head coaching jobs the odds are against us having it strike twice.
Even if Ellenson is everything we hope him to be, getting the type of players like Butler, Crowder, Johnson-Odom, Blue, Jamil, Gardner consistently to Marquette is unlikely.
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Hutch-
I'm not supporting Buzz when I say this, but call me skeptical that Wojo will be able to 1) achieve Buzz's level of post season success 2) win a BE regular season championship even in this watered down Big East and 3) consistently bring NBA talent to this team.
Be dismissive of Buzz and even Crean if you want, but we got lucky with lightning in a bottle with Buzz once. Based on other former Duke assistants moving on to head coaching jobs the odds are against us having it strike twice.
Even if Ellenson is everything we hope him to be, getting the type of players like Butler, Crowder, Johnson-Odom, Blue, Jamil, Gardner consistently to Marquette is unlikely.
Just curious, if the choice were yours, would you have chosen someone else?
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Just curious, if the choice were yours, would you have chosen someone else?
Yes.
I'm not unhappy with Wojo being hired but he was not my first or even fifth choice. You can find my thoughts on the hundreds of posts speculating on our coaching search. It's over now.
This was in direct response to Hutch's 'The purging of attitudes and crap Buzz was willing to bring in continues. Good for Wojo.' Neither Burton or Dawson have shown any indication of poor attitudes and I'd suggest that the 'attitudes and crap' Buzz took chances on is why we had the success we had. When you're in that second tier of schools (not blue bloods) you have to find the talent that slipped through the cracks of the upper echelon. Finding talent in imperfect packages and getting them to play hard was a big strength of what Buzz was able to do in his time here.
I'll go on record to say I think the program will be in worse shape with Wojo in five years than it has been the previous twelve. As a fan and supporter of MUBB I hope I'm wrong.
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Addition by subtraction Johnny.
I agree his dribble drives at Kaminsky weren't working. And yes, I believe in player development.
You think a guy in his senior season though, who's been crap offensively his first three full seasons in college, is all of a sudden going to change spots this year and become a dependable scording threat? Yeah, it's happened before, but the odds are high against it happening. Let's be realistic and not dreamers about him.
I'll hold out hope for guys like Burton, Taylor, Duane Wilson, maybe FIscher, to step up and give scoring punch help to Carlino over Anderson any day.
Didn't hold out very long, eh?
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Yes.
Care to share who?
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Care to share who?
Eldon,
I updated my previous post. I didn't name names. It was discussed in many posts during our coaching search and is irrelevant now. I'm not anti Wojo, just simply feel he could have done more with this recent situation to prevent it from occurring midseason.
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Please quote me correctly. My comment about players Buzz brought in the program was not specific to Burton alone and was clearly written that way. Don't change it by inserting "him" to tailor it to how you want to rip my comment.
BUrton doesn't pass or play any defense, nor did he ever show interest in either while at MU. Buzz brought him in because he is very gifted offensively, but as I stated, his game has serious flaws that I'm not sure he has interest in correcting. His play didn't suggest he had interest in correcting them, and Wojo's remarks leading up to and including his departure today suggest further he's not losing any sleep over him leaving now.
But you very clearly stated that "it continues" when referring to Burton. You stated a fallacy and tried defend yourself by stating another. You were quoted correctly. You lumped Burton in with the "bad attitude" crowd when it has never been even hinted that Deonte has shown any of that.
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Please quote me correctly. My comment about players Buzz brought in the program was not specific to Burton alone and was clearly written that way. Don't change it by inserting "him" to tailor it to how you want to rip my comment.
Total cop out.
You are correct that I didn't quote you correctly, but you certainly insinuated it by saying what you said in a thread about Burton. Deonte Burton was hardly a crap player that Buzz somehow forced onto Marquette. He was a top prospect, with solid academics, who was a great teammate and representative of MU.
As others have said, it didn't work out. Maybe he doesn't like Wojo. Maybe he can't quite figure out what Wojo wants because he hasn't been coached well in the past.
That doesn't make him a bad guy or even a bad player. It just means that it is probably best for him to find a new place to play. And that's OK. Wherever that ends up being, I wish him well because he seems like the type of guy I would be proud to call my son.
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That doesn't make him a bad guy or even a bad player. It just means that it is probably best for him to find a new place to play. And that's OK. Wherever that ends up being, I wish him well because he seems like the type of guy I would be proud to call my son.
Deonte is one of those kids that I really wonder how good of advice he is getting. He's gone through a ton of crap this year, and while Marquette may not be the best place for him, I'm not sure that truly finding the best place for him is what everyone around him has in mind.
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I have always wondered, if Buzz was winning recruiting battles because other teams recognized the players had deficiencies in their games. For example JJJ has a funky outside shot and even though he was rated very high Memphis did not seriously recruit him.
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I have always wondered, if Buzz was winning recruiting battles because other teams recognized the players had deficiencies in their games. For example JJJ has a funky outside shot and even though he was rated very high Memphis did not seriously recruit him.
I do think one of Buzz's failings was recruiting more to star rankings when it came to high school kids. So many of his highly rated players didn't pan out. Sure, we won some recruiting battles, but against who?
- Erik Williams picked us over Texas A&M, Baylor, and Alabama
- Junior Cadougan picked us over Memphis and Wake Forest
- Jamail Jones picked us over Oklahoma, Xavier, and Mississippi State
- Juan Anderson picked us over Cal, Arizona State, and Oregon
- Steve Taylor picked us over DePaul and Missouri
- Jajuan Johnson picked us over Miami and Alabama
I left the local guys off the list, but while we were winning recruiting battles, these weren't recruiting battles against top basketball programs. There are a few decent names in there, but these are schools that generally get top-100 recruits but don't win a ton with them. Even schools like Duke, UNC, Arizona, and Kansas recruit guys that aren't top-25 prospects. Yes, these are the kinds of players they usually fill out the roster with, but why is it none of these guys had even one blue-blood offer? My guess is because the big programs saw flaws in these guys games.
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I do think one of Buzz's failings was recruiting more to star rankings when it came to high school kids. So many of his highly rated players didn't pan out. Sure, we won some recruiting battles, but against who?
- Erik Williams picked us over Texas A&M, Baylor, and Alabama
- Junior Cadougan picked us over Memphis and Wake Forest
- Jamail Jones picked us over Oklahoma, Xavier, and Mississippi State
- Juan Anderson picked us over Cal, Arizona State, and Oregon
- Steve Taylor picked us over DePaul and Missouri
- Jajuan Johnson picked us over Miami and Alabama
I left the local guys off the list, but while we were winning recruiting battles, these weren't recruiting battles against top basketball programs. There are a few decent names in there, but these are schools that generally get top-100 recruits but don't win a ton with them. Even schools like Duke, UNC, Arizona, and Kansas recruit guys that aren't top-25 prospects. Yes, these are the kinds of players they usually fill out the roster with, but why is it none of these guys had even one blue-blood offer? My guess is because the big programs saw flaws in these guys games.
Baylor, Memphis, Xavier, Oklahoma, Cal and Missouri are all good basketball programs either currently or in the very recent past.
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Baylor, Memphis, Xavier, Oklahoma, Cal and Missouri are all good basketball programs either currently or in the very recent past.
Yes, good programs, but so were we. What I'm saying is we weren't beating schools in recruiting battles that were on that next plateau. And the interest from those schools the next tier up simply wasn't there.
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Yes, good programs, but so were we. What I'm saying is we weren't beating schools in recruiting battles that were on that next plateau. And the interest from those schools the next tier up simply wasn't there.
Was Vander choosing Marquette over Wisconsin beating a school on the next plateau?
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Was Vander choosing Marquette over Wisconsin beating a school on the next plateau?
LOL
Totally different as he originally committed to Wisconsin, then was essentially run off.
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Total cop out.
You are correct that I didn't quote you correctly, but you certainly insinuated it by saying what you said in a thread about Burton. Deonte Burton was hardly a crap player that Buzz somehow forced onto Marquette. He was a top prospect, with solid academics, who was a great teammate and representative of MU.
As others have said, it didn't work out. Maybe he doesn't like Wojo. Maybe he can't quite figure out what Wojo wants because he hasn't been coached well in the past.
That doesn't make him a bad guy or even a bad player. It just means that it is probably best for him to find a new place to play. And that's OK. Wherever that ends up being, I wish him well because he seems like the type of guy I would be proud to call my son.
I'll expand on my original comment about Wojo purging the attitudes and crap Buzz brought in the program.
Assumptions are being made that I was calling out Burton as a bad dude, this horrid cancer on the team, whatever. I'm not lumping him in with the Montearle Clark's that Buzz recruited as some here are assuming. By the term crap, I mean recruiting a guy who doesn't play defense or pass the ball, and has shown zero interest in either ( as stated in one of my earlier posts on this thread). That's selfish basketball, that never leads to winning basketball, and that is indeed part of the crap that Buzz brought in. I think there are character flaws for a guy who doesn't want to do these things on a basketball court. It's selfish, self absorbed, and a ME attitude. I never heard of any trouble the kid caused at MU off the court either, and he seemed rather soft spoken and quiet, but his playing style on the court, did not show well at all, and MU is well rid of him I think.
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Didn't hold out very long, eh?
What I wrote about him after the Badger game that I was holding out hope, was hardly a ringing endorsement, was it?
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I'll expand on my original comment about Wojo purging the attitudes and crap Buzz brought in the program.
Assumptions are being made that I was calling out Burton as a bad dude, this horrid cancer on the team, whatever. I'm not lumping him in with the Montearle Clark's that Buzz recruited as some here are assuming. By the term crap, I mean recruiting a guy who doesn't play defense or pass the ball, and has shown zero interest in either ( as stated in one of my earlier posts on this thread). That's selfish basketball, that never leads to winning basketball, and that is indeed part of the crap that Buzz brought in. I think there are character flaws for a guy who doesn't want to do these things on a basketball court. It's selfish, self absorbed, and a ME attitude. I never heard of any trouble the kid caused at MU off the court either, and he seemed rather soft spoken and quiet, but his playing style on the court, did not show well at all, and MU is well rid of him I think.
You must not have watched many Buzz Williams coached teams Hutch, because if you had you'd understand that they were anything other than selfish, lazy, lacking effort or me first.
Unfortunately last year we had a backcourt consisting of one guy who couldn't create his own shot and only shot 25 footers and another guy who had trouble finishing at point blank range and it forced the guys who could score to hang onto the basketball. Every other year I'd define Buzz's teams as unselfish, hard working, active on defense, good passing, sharing the basketball teams.
Ironically, Carlino has been the most selfish, me first player I've seen at Marquette in a long time and he's the first guy Wojo has brought in.
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You must not have watched many Buzz Williams coached teams Hutch, because if you had you'd understand that they were anything other than selfish, lazy, lacking effort or me first.
Unfortunately last year we had a backcourt consisting of one guy who couldn't create his own shot and only shot 25 footers and another guy who had trouble finishing at point blank range and it forced the guys who could score to hang onto the basketball. Every other year I'd define Buzz's teams as unselfish, hard working, active on defense, good passing, sharing the basketball teams.
Ironically, Carlino has been the most selfish, me first player I've seen at Marquette in a long time and he's the first guy Wojo has brought in.
I agree with you point on Carlino..but I'm fine with it. Was fine with Mayo. Was fine with Burton. Was fine with DJO. You have to have some guys who can go get you one, and get a look on their own at this level. People at times rode Todd last season as being a "me first" guy. What the hell was he supposed to do on that team when playing with Derrick and Jake. Did you not want Todd shooting it, attacking the basket? Same with Deonte. Same as this year with Carlino, Duane and Deonte - they are guys who can get their own shot off, and they are much better offensive players than Derrick, Juan, Steve. You want your best offensive players taking the most shots - even if forced at times.
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You must not have watched many Buzz Williams coached teams Hutch, because if you had you'd understand that they were anything other than selfish, lazy, lacking effort or me first.
Unfortunately last year we had a backcourt consisting of one guy who couldn't create his own shot and only shot 25 footers and another guy who had trouble finishing at point blank range and it forced the guys who could score to hang onto the basketball. Every other year I'd define Buzz's teams as unselfish, hard working, active on defense, good passing, sharing the basketball teams.
Ironically, Carlino has been the most selfish, me first player I've seen at Marquette in a long time and he's the first guy Wojo has brought in.
OMG!!!! I was talking about Burton in my post!! Burton's game was not a generalization of Buzz's players and teams. I didn't imply, say it, nothing. Give me a break already.
Buzz's players and recruits had a myriad of flaws that were red flags, some as players stricly, some off the court/character, in some cases both were true. They ran the spectrum- Burton- selfish, Mayo- attitude, Maymon, Reggie Smith- overinflated opinions of their ability coming in, Montearle Clark- criminal (not to mention the alleged sexual assault swept under the rug who can only be speculated were part of), Cadougan- a turnover machine for a PG, although capable of big plays, Derrick- maybe the worst shooter from the PG position this program has ever seen; they came in all shapes, sizes, and forms.
How much detail do I have to go into for the assumptions to be put to bed.
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I agree with you point on Carlino..but I'm fine with it. Was fine with Mayo. Was fine with Burton. Was fine with DJO. You have to have some guys who can go get you one, and get a look on their own at this level. People at times rode Todd last season as being a "me first" guy. What the hell was he supposed to do on that team when playing with Derrick and Jake. Did you not want Todd shooting it, attacking the basket? Same with Deonte. Same as this year with Carlino, Duane and Deonte - they are guys who can get their own shot off, and they are much better offensive players than Derrick, Juan, Steve. You want your best offensive players taking the most shots - even if forced at times.
Which is a huge problem with Deonte this year. His usage rate is way down. For a guy who probably has the most raw offensive ability on the team, he should be far more aggressive trying to score than he has been this year.
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I was personally shocked. I would drop him off at the AL at 1 am a few times and he would go shoot around. Just odd, really wonder what happened.
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I was personally shocked. I would drop him off at the AL at 1 am a few times and he would go shoot around. Just odd, really wonder what happened.
Probably uses time on the court to think things through. He's been through a lot in a short time. He's lost a boss (coach), a mother, and his best friend on the team wasn't playing. That would be a lot for me to go through and I have nearly 50 years of wisdom, and a wonderful wife and family to help me. It's a lot for a 20 year old to deal with.
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Probably uses time on the court to think things through. He's been through a lot in a short time. He's lost a boss (coach), a mother, and his best friend on the team wasn't playing. That would be a lot for me to go through and I have nearly 50 years of wisdom, and a wonderful wife and family to help me. It's a lot for a 20 year old to deal with.
Per twitter, Iowa State showing interest already. Is there any connection between Burton and McKay? A coach or "advisor"?
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Hoiberg does love the transfers. But he IS able to ride herd on the Island of Misfit Toys, so more power to him.
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Per twitter, Iowa State showing interest already. Is there any connection between Burton and McKay? A coach or "advisor"?
I believe AAU coach.
http://painttouches.com/2012/06/05/mckay-feels-right-at-home-at-marquette/
"And as the third recruit from Milwaukee to commit for the 2013 class, McKay also has a friendship with 6-foot-5 wing Deonte Burton, who committed to Marquette last September.
Two years ago, the duo played for Terry Porter Elite on the AAU circuit, and McKay said he spoke with Burton and point guard commit Duane Wilson shortly after his commitment."
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Hoiberg does love the transfers. But he IS able to ride herd on the Island of Misfit Toys, so more power to him.
Yup, say what you want about Hoiberg. But he is a great coach. I have a friend who plays for Iowa St. (Yes he transferred) and he has said nothing but great things about Hoiberg. Deonte would be in good hands if he went there.
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I never know how to feel about Hoiberg. Everyone talks about how he is such a great guy. But his players always seem to be dealing with off the court issues. Bryce Dejean-Jones just got suspended for a green leafy substance. Seems like he runs a pretty loose program.
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I never know how to feel about Hoiberg. Everyone talks about how he is such a great guy. But his players always seem to be dealing with off the court issues. Bryce Dejean-Jones just got suspended for a green leafy substance. Seems like he runs a pretty loose program.
Well I have a great source in regards to him and I've only heard positives.
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Marquette Hoops retweeted
PantherU.com @PantherU 46m46 minutes ago
FWIW, coaches I've talked to around the Midwest believe Deonte Burton will likely end up at either Iowa State or UCLA. #MKEBB will recruit.
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Yup, say what you want about Hoiberg. But he is a great coach. I have a friend who plays for Iowa St. (Yes he transferred) and he has said nothing but great things about Hoiberg. Deonte would be in good hands if he went there.
Abdel Nader?
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Wojo may be a terrible defensive coach, we don't know yet. To single Deonte out when the whole D was bad is not looking at the whole picture.
Guess we'll see at Deonte's next stop.
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Abdel Nader?
Yup, had a heck of a game last night too.
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Per twitter, Iowa State showing interest already. Is there any connection between Burton and McKay? A coach or "advisor"?
Even after McKay transferred, he was still around MKE last spring and played pickup games with the boys - JJJ, Burton, Dawson, Duane - downtown at the B&G club after hours. I was at a few of them and Burton/McKay played together a lot. Definitely friends. How close, I have no idea.
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Well I have a great source in regards to him and I've only heard positives.
Well if I was a college aged basketball player and my coach created an environment where I felt free to drink, drive, and smoke weed, I'd probably only have positives to say about him too!
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Yup, had a heck of a game last night too.
Marquette was looking at him apparently out of high school.
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Well if I was a college aged basketball player and my coach created an environment where I felt free to drink, drive, and smoke weed, I'd probably only have positives to say about him too!
Wait, you think players on other teams don't do these things? Cause man do I have some stories about MU players for you.
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Marquette was looking at him apparently out of high school.
Yea, they were. Aki Collins came to a couple of practices when he was a senior. He had an offer.
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Wait, you think players on other teams don't do these things? Cause man do I have some stories about MU players for you.
Trust me, I am well aware. But it doesn't change the fact that he's had five players (that I can think of) in the last three years in the national media for reasons you don't want to be in the media for. That doesn't happen very often. Is Iowa state just unlucky or is there another factor? I don't know, but it certainly looks bad on its face
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Trust me, I am well aware. But it doesn't change the fact that he's had five players (that I can think of) in the last three years in the national media for reasons you don't want to be in the media for. That doesn't happen very often. Is Iowa state just unlucky or is there another factor? I don't know, but it certainly looks bad on its face
could be worse, see Indiana :D
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Trust me, I am well aware. But it doesn't change the fact that he's had five players (that I can think of) in the last three years in the national media for reasons you don't want to be in the media for. That doesn't happen very often. Is Iowa state just unlucky or is there another factor? I don't know, but it certainly looks bad on its face
Squirmy.
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Which is a huge problem with Deonte this year. His usage rate is way down. For a guy who probably has the most raw offensive ability on the team, he should be far more aggressive trying to score than he has been this year.
I find this somewhat funny. I also find it a byproduct of Wojo's coaching. Many complained about Deonte being a black hole, needs to have a more well rounded game - to an extent I agree. Yet, I sense the aggressiveness you would have liked to see (now in retrospect), was largely coached out of him.
My issue: On a team that needs all the scoring punch it can get, I'd like a guy who was shooting 47.2% from the field, 40% from the 3, and 76% from the FT line to let it fly, and to be able to do so more than 16 minutes a game.
In retrospect, his decision to transfer really isn't a shock at all. Particularly when you combine the above with the fact his best friend on the team was oddly relegated to the bench for 7 DNPs.
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Just for reference, Deonte was 3rd in shots per minute, and #1 in shots per min. in the front court.
Name FG Made FG Attempts Shots per Min. Minutes
Juan Anderson 35 68 0.265 257
Matt Carlino 30 78 0.315 248
Duane Wilson 30 71 0.306 232
Steve Taylor Jr. 26 57 0.243 235
Derrick Wilson 18 44 0.187 235
Deonte Burton 17 36 0.279 129
JaJuan Johnson 16 40 0.247 162
Sandy Cohen III 10 24 0.245 98
John Dawson 0 1 0.250 4
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I think Dawson told Wojo early he was transferring at the end of the first semester, so there was no way he was going to get any playing time. Coaches do not want to play players that are transferring. From what I saw and other's reported Deonte basically shot threes in the Pro am instead of taking it to the hoop like he did the year before. I do not know why, but Deonte changed how he wanted to play. I think two things hurt Deonte's playing time this year and they were defense and rebounding.
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I think Dawson told Wojo early he was transferring at the end of the first semester, so there was no way he was going to get any playing time. Coaches do not want to play players that are transferring. From what I saw and other's reported Deonte basically shot threes in the Pro am instead of taking it to the hoop like he did the year before. I do not know why, but Deonte changed how he wanted to play. I think two things hurt Deonte's playing time this year and they were defense and rebounding.
This is completely false. I can assure you 100% the decision wasn't made until after the 7th DNP (Wisconsin game). Thoughts began after the 3rd DNP, though nothing said to coaching staff. Dawson continued to work hard, be a great teammate, and did everything he could to get on the court thereafter.
Wojo preferred to free that scholarship versus give him an opportunity to play. Wojo isn't dumb and knows that nailing a guy to the bench is the best way to breed discontent.
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This is completely false. I can assure you 100% the decision wasn't made until after the 7th DNP (Wisconsin game). Thoughts began after the 3rd DNP, though nothing said to coaching staff. Dawson continued to work hard, be a great teammate, and did everything he could to get on the court thereafter.
Wojo preferred to free that scholarship versus give him an opportunity to play. Wojo isn't dumb and knows that nailing a guy to the bench is the best way to breed discontent.
He's back and worse than ever. Now he knows the players' thoughts.
So his time away was just spent making up even weirder theories.
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He's back and worse than ever. Now he knows the players' thoughts.
So his time away was just spent making up even weirder theories.
Maybe he called Dawson personally.
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He's back and worse than ever. Now he knows the players' thoughts.
So his time away was just spent making up even weirder theories.
What I wrote wasn't speculation. Ever think that given how much of a fan I've been of John's, somehow, some way, beyond belief - his family my have appreciated the support?? So...if you want to know...yes...I've been privy to what's transpired through this process from as good of source as you can get.
And as for the continued personal insults you and a handful of the other clowns here continue to drop - they'd actually offend if I truly respected the group of clowns who have such hatred toward a guy who shares a different view than them on MU basketball. God forbid. Maybe I should start to trot out the lame - "I'm going to announce to the board..I'm putting you on ignore." But, I won't - because even though I disagree with many of the clowns takes, and read countless personal insults from the clown posse - I've managed to develop a thicker skin than those in yours. Carry on.
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He's back and worse than ever. Now he knows the players' thoughts.
So his time away was just spent making up even weirder theories.
He is a tool.
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I will confirm that Dawson was committed to MU until very recently. He remained a contributor in practice and carried the torch that he would earn his playing time. His decision to leave was made right before his announcement.
PS I think John Dawson is a great kid and I wish him nothing but success. From what I know he was reared by a great family and his core values will enable him to prosper in whatever path he chooses.
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While I have no inside information I don't for a moment doubt Ners or Keefe on this.
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MU never had any blow out games to allow the player at the end of the bench to play. Dawson's not playing does not necessarily mean Wojo was pushing him out.
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And as for the continued personal insults you and a handful of the other clowns here continue to drop - they'd actually offend if I truly respected the group of clowns who have such hatred toward a guy who shares a different view than them on MU basketball.
Nobody hates you Ners. Stop making it so personal.
FWIW, I have no doubt what you are saying is the truth wrt Dawson.
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This is completely false. I can assure you 100% the decision wasn't made until after the 7th DNP (Wisconsin game). Thoughts began after the 3rd DNP, though nothing said to coaching staff. Dawson continued to work hard, be a great teammate, and did everything he could to get on the court thereafter.
Wojo preferred to free that scholarship versus give him an opportunity to play. Wojo isn't dumb and knows that nailing a guy to the bench is the best way to breed discontent.
I do believe you know all this information. Can you answer the following?
1. Why, from the Dawson side, was nothing said about having doubts about sticking with the team?
2. Was anything say to Dawson, from the coaches, about why he wasn't getting playing time?
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I do believe you know all this information. Can you answer the following?
1. Why, from the Dawson side, was nothing said about having doubts about sticking with the team?
2. Was anything say to Dawson, from the coaches, about why he wasn't getting playing time?
1. John wanted to stay at Marquette, and was hopeful to "earn" time on the floor to prove he belonged. He kept his mouth shut, kept working hard, being a good teammate - with the hopes he'd get some PT. As has been posted, the decision wasn't made till after the WI game (7th DNP in a row.) He, nor family ever went to coaching staff and said..."Play me, or I'm going to transfer." Not their style. As his Dad said in the Journal Sentinel interview - "They read the handwriting on the wall." (And made their determination accordingly.)
2. Nothing concrete/definitive. Was told to just keep working hard. Was pretty generic "company line" type of communication.
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1. John wanted to stay at Marquette, and was hopeful to "earn" time on the floor to prove he belonged. He kept his mouth shut, kept working hard, being a good teammate - with the hopes he'd get some PT. As has been posted, the decision wasn't made till after the WI game (7th DNP in a row.) He, nor family ever went to coaching staff and said..."Play me, or I'm going to transfer." Not their style. As his Dad said in the Journal Sentinel interview - "They read the handwriting on the wall." (And made their determination accordingly.)
2. Nothing concrete/definitive. Was told to just keep working hard. Was pretty generic "company line" type of communication.
I will point out, that this is just one side of the story. I don't know anything to the contrary, but please keep this in mind.
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Ners, wouldn't it hurt a coach's reputation to not be forthcoming with a player and bench him to force a transfer? No coach can afford that.
I am not challenging you on your point. It just doesn't make sense to me.
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Nobody hates you Ners. Stop making it so personal.
FWIW, I have no doubt what you are saying is the truth wrt Dawson.
FYI - I don't put you in the group of Clowns I referenced. As for the "hatred" comment - semantics/splitting hairs. You and I can disagree with each other, and frequently do - yet it doesn't devolve into what others here choose to devolve it to in the way of expressing disagreement/dislike.
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Wojo preferred to free that scholarship versus give him an opportunity to play. Wojo isn't dumb and knows that nailing a guy to the bench is the best way to breed discontent.
Or maybe Wojo just didn't think he was good enough to play.
Why do you insist on nefarious motives here?
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Ners, wouldn't it hurt a coach's reputation to not be forthcoming with a player and bench him to force a transfer? No coach can afford that.
I am not challenging you on your point. It just doesn't make sense to me.
It happens fairly frequently at the high major level. The more vague the "explanation" the more frustrating the experience becomes for a player. Though this is college ball, and not the pros - It truly is still a business/big business - and the coaches face enormous pressure to deliver a winning product. They are the chief executive of the program, and make decisions accordingly.
Now, I was very vocal in my support of John, and felt he'd be a good player at this level. Wojo felt differently - and that is his prerogative and decision to make with regard to the program moving forward. I will speculate, however, that perhaps it may not have been so much that Wojo didn't think John was a good player, as much as it was Wojo liked other prospects better (Sandy), as well as next year's incoming guards - Nick N and Cheatham. I feel this way as it then goes back to being the CEO of the program, and if you sense "overcapacity" at one position, and perhaps a deficit elsewhere (PG), you might want to change the complexion of the roster and in so doing improve your roster - and give the "encouraged transfer" kid a better future elsewhere.
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Or maybe Wojo just didn't think he was good enough to play.
Why do you insist on nefarious motives here?
Given that Dawson was given more run than JJJ last season by Buzz and showed some potential, combined with the fact that ALL of the guards this year have struggled at times (perhaps other than Carlino), and all were given an opportunity to get on the floor - that's where I draw the inference.
Had any of JJJ, Cohen, or Derrick really stepped up and shown they were clear cut best option for the other guard position - then I wouldn't draw the inference. It isn't logical to think based on what Dawson showed in games last season, that he really could have been THAT much worse than the other guys - to not even merit some opportunity.
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Given that Dawson was given more run than JJJ last season by Buzz and showed some potential, combined with the fact that ALL of the guards this year have struggled at times (perhaps other than Carlino), and all were given an opportunity to get on the floor - that's where I draw the inference.
Ignoring the factual inaccuracy (JJJ played more than JD last year, and was better when he did), it's really irrelevant because they play different positions.
The fact is not one, but two, coaching staffs have determined that JD wasn't good enough to get more PT. It's possible that everybody is wrong but you here ... but it's not credible to suggest, as you have repeatedly, that the kid is the victim of some sinister plot.
. It isn't logical to think based on what Dawson showed in games last season, that he really could have been THAT much worse than the other guys - to not even merit some opportunity.
Are you sure? What exactly did JD show in games last year? We're talking about a kid who shot .320 from the field - worse than Derrick, in fact, by not a little - and had a terrible assist-to-turnover ratio for a guy who'd be asked to handle the ball a lot, as Derrick does. JD turned the ball over once for every 1.4 assists. Derrick has a 3-to-1 ratio this year.
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Just stop already
Given that Dawson was given more run than JJJ last season by Buzz and showed some potential, combined with the fact that ALL of the guards this year have struggled at times (perhaps other than Carlino), and all were given an opportunity to get on the floor - that's where I draw the inference.
Had any of JJJ, Cohen, or Derrick really stepped up and shown they were clear cut best option for the other guard position - then I wouldn't draw the inference. It isn't logical to think based on what Dawson showed in games last season, that he really could have been THAT much worse than the other guys - to not even merit some opportunity.
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He is a tool.
Spoken like a true tool, 79.
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1. John wanted to stay at Marquette, and was hopeful to "earn" time on the floor to prove he belonged. He kept his mouth shut, kept working hard, being a good teammate - with the hopes he'd get some PT. As has been posted, the decision wasn't made till after the WI game (7th DNP in a row.) He, nor family ever went to coaching staff and said..."Play me, or I'm going to transfer." Not their style. As his Dad said in the Journal Sentinel interview - "They read the handwriting on the wall." (And made their determination accordingly.)
2. Nothing concrete/definitive. Was told to just keep working hard. Was pretty generic "company line" type of communication.
Thanks. Appreciate the response. You and I will always disagree on this topic - JD's playing time. Having said that, I understand that high major hoops can be a questionable venture at times, guess I would just hope that conversation and feelings between coaches and players are always known.
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Ners, they're gone. Exacerbating this is just a waste of everyone's time and Scoop's bandwidth.
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Ignoring the factual inaccuracy (JJJ played more than JD last year, and was better when he did), it's really irrelevant because they play different positions.
The fact is not one, but two, coaching staffs have determined that JD wasn't good enough to get more PT. It's possible that everybody is wrong but you here ... but it's not credible to suggest, as you have repeatedly, that the kid is the victim of some sinister plot.
Are you sure? What exactly did JD show in games last year? We're talking about a kid who shot .320 from the field - worse than Derrick, in fact, by not a little - and had a terrible assist-to-turnover ratio for a guy who'd be asked to handle the ball a lot, as Derrick does. JD turned the ball over once for every 1.4 assists. Derrick has a 3-to-1 ratio this year.
Sorry - Yes, JJJ did play more minutes for the season as a whole, but in conference play John played more. But yes, different positions.
Regarding what Dawson showed in games last year - to compare head to head with Derrick given one player had the ideal performance environment (max minutes EVERY GAME), and the other wildly inconsistent minutes, but generally 3, short stints of 3 to 4 minutes per game (in the games he got to play in) is like comparing an apple to an orange. Not trying to be a dick - but have you ever played the game at even a high school level? I simply, ask, because if you have I think you'd understand it is very hard to produce a whole lot in such choppy segments of playing time.
Yes, we have only 1 game of "real" data on Dawson (where he got 30 minutes). In that game the guy scored 12. He played solidly, on the road, against 2 very good guards. And in overtime, hit a 3, a nice midrange pull up off the dribble, and 2-2 from the FT line - all during clutch time. Shows me the kid has some poise. The fact he shoots FTS at about 75% also tells me he's a good shooter. He saw the floor well too. Had the second best D-Rating on the team last year after Derrick. He was a good prospect. And he will have a nice college career somewhere.
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1. John wanted to stay at Marquette, and was hopeful to "earn" time on the floor to prove he belonged. He kept his mouth shut, kept working hard, being a good teammate - with the hopes he'd get some PT. As has been posted, the decision wasn't made till after the WI game (7th DNP in a row.) He, nor family ever went to coaching staff and said..."Play me, or I'm going to transfer." Not their style. As his Dad said in the Journal Sentinel interview - "They read the handwriting on the wall." (And made their determination accordingly.)
2. Nothing concrete/definitive. Was told to just keep working hard. Was pretty generic "company line" type of communication.
Thanks for the insight on this. Sounds like John is a great kid with a great family. Hope he finds a good fit going forward. Any idea how long he will take to pick a new program (I assume it has to be by the start of the new semester)?
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Almost every player has a career game. I think Vander averaged slighly less than 6 points as freshmen, but he scored 25 in one game. Kinsella did nothing his whole career and then hit 3 or 4 threes on senior night against Pittsburg. I would say Carlino's 38 points against Georgia Tech was a career game. I do believe Duane will have another 30 point game this year, like Novak who had two unbelievable games they are outliers. Doing it once means you were hot, doing more than one shows you have talent. The year we went 22-15 we won one game where
Acker hit 6 threes and another game were Culliban hit 6 threes. I doubt they hit more than 3 threes in any other game that year.
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Almost every player has a career game. I think Vander averaged slighly less than 6 points as freshmen, but he scored 25 in one game. Kinsella did nothing his whole career and then hit 3 or 4 threes on senior night against Pittsburg. I would say Carlino's 38 points against Georgia Tech was a career game. I do believe Duane will have another 30 point game this year, like Novak who had two unbelievable games they are outliers. Doing it once means you were hot, doing more than one shows you have talent. The year we went 22-15 we won one game where
Acker hit 6 threes and another game were Culliban hit 6 threes. I doubt they hit more than 3 threes in any other game that year.
Ryan Amoroso had a game for the ages. Once.
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Jean Felix, anyone? >:( :'(
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Jean Felix, anyone? >:( :'(
Did you really have to open painful, old, psychological wounds that were slowly scabbing over? Damn you!
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I will speculate, however, that perhaps it may not have been so much that Wojo didn't think John was a good player, as much as it was Wojo liked other prospects better (Sandy), as well as next year's incoming guards - Nick N and Cheatham. I feel this way as it then goes back to being the CEO of the program, and if you sense "overcapacity" at one position, and perhaps a deficit elsewhere (PG), you might want to change the complexion of the roster and in so doing improve your roster - and give the "encouraged transfer" kid a better future elsewhere.
if next year's players were a factor then wouldn't Wojo just nail him to the bench next year, no need to force a transfer this year
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If we believe that 3 or 4 min stints aren't a good way to evaluate a player, then a 1 time performance probably isn't a good way either. Lots of outliers in both scenarios.
Honestly, none of us have enough input to accurately judge playing time. We're all just guessing based upon what we've seen, which is about 1% of what the coaches have seen.
I hope John has a nice career. Seems like a nice kid, and should be able to find a place to play for a couple of years.
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This is completely false. I can assure you 100% the decision wasn't made until after the 7th DNP (Wisconsin game). Thoughts began after the 3rd DNP, though nothing said to coaching staff. Dawson continued to work hard, be a great teammate, and did everything he could to get on the court thereafter.
Wojo preferred to free that scholarship versus give him an opportunity to play. Wojo isn't dumb and knows that nailing a guy to the bench is the best way to breed discontent.
This is 100% ners is right.... It didn't happen right away....
Thanks for the insight on this. Sounds like John is a great kid with a great family. Hope he finds a good fit going forward. Any idea how long he will take to pick a new program (I assume it has to be by the start of the new semester)?
Correct, and very soon....
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While I'm sure Ners and keefe have it right, I guess what I still can't get my arms around is why Wojo wouldn't value both John's and Deonte's services for the remainder of the year? Both had already burned their Sophomore eligibility and it's not as if they were 12th and 13th man. I guess we'll never know. Certainly there's no indication that either did anything that reflected badly on MU.
Anyway, we move forward. I hope both find happiness and success at their next stop.
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While I'm sure Ners and keefe have it right, I guess what I still can't get my arms around is why Wojo wouldn't value both John's and Deonte's services for the remainder of the year? Both had already burned their Sophomore eligibility and it's not as if they were 12th and 13th man. I guess we'll never know. Certainly there's no indication that either did anything that reflected badly on MU.
Anyway, we move forward. I hope both find happiness and success at their next stop.
I see your point, but wouldnt there be an incentive for both John and Deonte to transfer sooner? In order for them to be eligible earlier next year? I understand in doing so, they in essence lose a year's worth of eligibility (second half this year, first half next year), but I just want to point out that I wouldn't jump to assumptions that Wojo wouldn't want them to stick around for the remainder of the year.
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Sorry - Yes, JJJ did play more minutes for the season as a whole, but in conference play John played more. But yes, different positions.
Regarding what Dawson showed in games last year - to compare head to head with Derrick given one player had the ideal performance environment (max minutes EVERY GAME), and the other wildly inconsistent minutes, but generally 3, short stints of 3 to 4 minutes per game (in the games he got to play in) is like comparing an apple to an orange. Not trying to be a dick - but have you ever played the game at even a high school level? I simply, ask, because if you have I think you'd understand it is very hard to produce a whole lot in such choppy segments of playing time.
Yes, we have only 1 game of "real" data on Dawson (where he got 30 minutes). In that game the guy scored 12. He played solidly, on the road, against 2 very good guards. And in overtime, hit a 3, a nice midrange pull up off the dribble, and 2-2 from the FT line - all during clutch time. Shows me the kid has some poise. The fact he shoots FTS at about 75% also tells me he's a good shooter. He saw the floor well too. Had the second best D-Rating on the team last year after Derrick. He was a good prospect. And he will have a nice college career somewhere.
Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.
I hate to do this, because bashing JD is not my desire or my intent, but let's be honest here. He was a lower-tier three-star recruit (#277 overall according to the 24/7 composite) who chose Marquette over the likes of UTEP, Wyoming, Idaho State and New Mexico State. It was a big surprise that a high-major program like MU gave him a scholarship. What shouldn't be a big surprise is that he wasn't good enough - especially by early in his sophomore year - to play much for such a program. While there certainly have been instances of lightly regarded recruits succeeding at bigger programs, they're very much the exception to the rule. John doesn't appear to be the exception.
He's no different from Jamal Ferguson or Brett Roseboro or Liam McMorrow or Youssoupha Mbao .... a kid Buzz reached - and missed - on.
I wish him nothing but the best in his future.
Problem is, you can't or won't accept this because you built him up last year to be a Magic-esque player, despite heaps of evidence to the contrary. And so instead of facing the reality that John probably wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to earn major minutes, you've fabricated a conspiracy wherein TWO D-1 coaching staffs are either too incompetent to see the kid's all-world talents or have acted sinisterly to keep a good kid down.
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John Dawson simply isn't that good. He'll transfer to a mid major and probably have a decent career. Good for him, he probably just wants to play. Can't imagine it's that fun to dedicate yourself to academics and basketball and never see the floor.People on this board will then post his great stats at Florida A&M.
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Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.
I hate to do this, because bashing JD is not my desire or my intent, but let's be honest here. He was a lower-tier three-star recruit (#277 overall according to the 24/7 composite) who chose Marquette over the likes of UTEP, Wyoming, Idaho State and New Mexico State. It was a big surprise that a high-major program like MU gave him a scholarship. What shouldn't be a big surprise is that he wasn't good enough - especially by early in his sophomore year - to play much for such a program. While there certainly have been instances of lightly regarded recruits succeeding at bigger programs, they're very much the exception to the rule. John doesn't appear to be the exception.
He's no different from Jamal Ferguson or Brett Roseboro or Liam McMorrow or Youssoupha Mbao .... a kid Buzz reached - and missed - on.
I wish him nothing but the best in his future.
Problem is, you can't or won't accept this because you built him up last year to be a Magic-esque player, despite heaps of evidence to the contrary. And so instead of facing the reality that John probably wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to earn major minutes, you've fabricated a conspiracy wherein TWO D-1 coaching staffs are either too incompetent to see the kid's all-world talents or have acted sinisterly to keep a good kid down.
Good post.
I think if Junior Cadougan was our point guard last year Ners never has this debate.
It's the point guard production (or lack there of) that no matter what anyone says, in Ners' mind is the worst he's ever seen.
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Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.
I hate to do this, because bashing JD is not my desire or my intent, but let's be honest here. He was a lower-tier three-star recruit (#277 overall according to the 24/7 composite) who chose Marquette over the likes of UTEP, Wyoming, Idaho State and New Mexico State. It was a big surprise that a high-major program like MU gave him a scholarship. What shouldn't be a big surprise is that he wasn't good enough - especially by early in his sophomore year - to play much for such a program. While there certainly have been instances of lightly regarded recruits succeeding at bigger programs, they're very much the exception to the rule. John doesn't appear to be the exception.
He's no different from Jamal Ferguson or Brett Roseboro or Liam McMorrow or Youssoupha Mbao .... a kid Buzz reached - and missed - on.
I wish him nothing but the best in his future.
Problem is, you can't or won't accept this because you built him up last year to be a Magic-esque player, despite heaps of evidence to the contrary. And so instead of facing the reality that John probably wasn't good enough at this stage of his career to earn major minutes, you've fabricated a conspiracy wherein TWO D-1 coaching staffs are either too incompetent to see the kid's all-world talents or have acted sinisterly to keep a good kid down.
Great post Pakuni. I would like to further stress that your above assessment is not bashing JD at all, but merely calling it how it is. Some people here like to think that statements like the above are "bashing a player" when all it really is, is saying he merely was not good enough to get significant minutes.
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Serious questions, Ners .... how is it you believe coaches do determine playing time, and how do you think coaches should determine playing time?
You seem to be implying here that a player - in this case Dawson - deserves playing time to show whether or not he deserves playing time. As if at the season's onset, all playing time should be distributed equally among the roster until at some point (when???) each player has been given enough opportunity to show whether or not he deserves more.
That's obviously ludicrous, and fortunately not the way it works.
Players earn PT initially based on what they show in practice, and then when given an opportunity in games.
Buzz Williams saw John in practice every day for months, and then in some games, and decided he didn't earn more playing time.
Wojo saw John in practice for weeks, and decided he didn't earn significant playing time.
It's bizarre to think that there's something more to it than that.
Don't want to answer for Ners, but in short, I think the logic for his desire to see Dawson was basically, "The starting PG is killing us, let's try someone else. How could he be worse?" He was not advocating playing everyone equally then sorting them out based on game action. Not unreasonable for a fan to think that way. Of course the coach has a better handle on his options than we do as fans, but as fans we can have valid dissenting opinions (though perhaps expressing the same opinion multiple times daily is unnecesary), and I have to agree that it was very frustrating watching that Derrick/Jake backcourt last year.
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John Dawson simply isn't that good. He'll transfer to a mid major and probably have a decent career. Good for him, he probably just wants to play. Can't imagine it's that fun to dedicate yourself to academics and basketball and never see the floor.People on this board will then post his great stats at Florida A&M.
And if John averages only 5 pts in 18 minutes a game at a low- or mid-major, will we have to listen to Ners go on about another coach not knowing what he is doing?
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Don't want to answer for Ners, but in short, I think the logic for his desire to see Dawson was basically, "The starting PG is killing us, let's try someone else. How could he be worse?" He was not advocating playing everyone equally then sorting them out based on game action. Not unreasonable for a fan to think that way. Of course the coach has a better handle on his options than we do as fans, but as fans we can have valid dissenting opinions (though perhaps expressing the same opinion multiple times daily is unnecesary), and I have to agree that it was very frustrating watching that Derrick/Jake backcourt last year.
That's fair, but I would suggest this:
Wojo - and before him, Buzz - knows exactly who Derrick Wilson is.They know what kind of production they're getting from him in games. They know what he does well, and they know his obvious limitations. I would suggest they know this to a far greater degree than any of us.
Despite this knowledge, they've both decided their teams have a better chance of winning with Derrick getting significantly more playing time than JD.
As I've said before, it is possible that they're both wrong.
But what's not possible, as Ners has repeatedly implied, is that Buzz and Wojo have nailed JD to the bench for (separate) nefarious reasons.
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That's fair, but I would suggest this:
Wojo - and before him, Buzz - knows exactly who Derrick Wilson is.They know what kind of production they're getting from him in games. They know what he does well, and they know his obvious limitations. I would suggest they know this to a far greater degree than any of us.
Despite this knowledge, they've both decided their teams have a better chance of winning with Derrick getting significantly more playing time than JD.
As I've said before, it is possible that they're both wrong.
But what's not possible, as Ners has repeatedly implied, is that Buzz and Wojo have nailed JD to the bench for (separate) nefarious reasons.
I agree with you here. Both the last two coaches certainly see what Derrick does and doesn't do and have a better handle on what JD can and can't do than we do, and felt it was in the team's best interest to play Derrick big minutes and Dawson little to none. Derrick is undoubtedly a great leader but I don't see him as even a serviceable PG on the offensive half of the court. I readily admit that I would defer to Wojo (and Buzz before him) when it comes to what's best for the team, but I don't understand what they see in him other than intangibles and defense and how that's worth so many minutes.
I can live in a world where I don't understand why the coach is doing what he is doing and still root for him and the team. I understand that I am very likely wrong and they are very likely right.
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Don't want to answer for Ners, but in short, I think the logic for his desire to see Dawson was basically, "The starting PG is killing us, let's try someone else. How could he be worse?" He was not advocating playing everyone equally then sorting them out based on game action. Not unreasonable for a fan to think that way. Of course the coach has a better handle on his options than we do as fans, but as fans we can have valid dissenting opinions (though perhaps expressing the same opinion multiple times daily is unnecesary), and I have to agree that it was very frustrating watching that Derrick/Jake backcourt last year.
Nothing but net!
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And if John averages only 5 pts in 18 minutes a game at a low- or mid-major, will we have to listen to Ners go on about another coach not knowing what he is doing?
And how many points per minute would DeWil score at a low- or mid-major?
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I can live in a world where I don't understand why the coach is doing what he is doing and still root for him and the team. I understand that I am very likely wrong and they are very likely right.
This is the key for me.
It's okay to dislike the way a coach does something, but also understand that he likely knows something we don't.
EXAMPLE:
I never liked Buzz's rotations, but they worked (for several seasons), so I just shrugged and said "okay".
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This is the key for me.
It's okay to dislike the way a coach does something, but also understand that he likely knows something we don't.
EXAMPLE:
I never liked Buzz's rotations, but they worked (for several seasons), so I just shrugged and said "okay".
But that ignores the couple of poster (or maybe one) who knows more than Buzz and Wojo. Can't you see that we have a poster that knows more than these guys who are being paid millions of dollars? Guys at the very top of their profession. One poster in particular knows what is best from a very small sample size than Buzz, Wojo, and presumably the majority of assistants as well.
The same guy probably knows what the politicians should be doing to resolve the ISIS problem, the middle east issues, and sound economic policy as well as a host of other significant issues. It is just the rest of us that can't see it so clearly. And this person thinks if they spend hours posting the same stuff over and over and over, that the rest of us will see the light that he so clearly sees and get in line... Ugghh!
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Yup, say what you want about Hoiberg. But he is a great coach. I have a friend who plays for Iowa St. (Yes he transferred) and he has said nothing but great things about Hoiberg. Deonte would be in good hands if he went there.
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/business/article_f349fbe8-816c-11e4-bad3-4b9f0904cabf.html (http://www.iowastatedaily.com/business/article_f349fbe8-816c-11e4-bad3-4b9f0904cabf.html)
Based on the article linked above, seems like Hoiberg gives his players a long leash/free rein.
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http://www.iowastatedaily.com/business/article_f349fbe8-816c-11e4-bad3-4b9f0904cabf.html (http://www.iowastatedaily.com/business/article_f349fbe8-816c-11e4-bad3-4b9f0904cabf.html)
Based on the article linked above, seems like Hoiberg gives his players a long leash/free rein.
So did Buzz. Plus any given weekend, any house on MU's campus would be busted for those exact same charges. I'm not saying it's right but to turn a blind eye is the norm in many big time programs.
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We will be better without Burton. Thats no shot at Burton either he just didn't fit Wojo's system.
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To clarify a few of the posts made by those who love to hate on me:
1) Yes, I preferred anything over Derrick last year (and this year). Wojo and Buzz see it differently. That's fine. Believe they both got/are getting far too caught up in the intangibles with regard to Derrick, than the actual tangibles.
2) Never said Dawson would be "Magic Johnson." Said he made a few passes against Grambling (yes Grambling) that were Magic Johnson good.
3) Don't be so sure Dawson ends up at a mid-major. Big 12 schools inquiring. NO decision will be made before Christmas.
4) Burton left primarily due to wanting to be a 3 (not a 4 - which is what Wojo wanted). Deonte essentially wanted the minutes Derrick was getting 25-30 minutes per game - and had a hard time processing Derrick getting those minutes with Carlino and Duane being the clear cut best two guards and basically them being interchangeable.
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To clarify a few of the posts made by those who love to hate on me:
Quit playing the martyr. It is unbecoming.
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To clarify a few of the posts made by those who love to hate on me:
1) Yes, I preferred anything over Derrick last year (and this year). Wojo and Buzz see it differently. That's fine. Believe they both got/are getting far too caught up in the intangibles with regard to Derrick, than the actual tangibles.
2) Never said Dawson would be "Magic Johnson." Said he made a few passes against Grambling (yes Grambling) that were Magic Johnson good.
3) Don't be so sure Dawson ends up at a mid-major. Big 12 schools inquiring. NO decision will be made before Christmas.
4) Burton left primarily due to wanting to be a 3 (not a 4 - which is what Wojo wanted). Deonte essentially wanted the minutes Derrick was getting 25-30 minutes per game - and had a hard time processing Derrick getting those minutes with Carlino and Duane being the clear cut best two guards and basically them being interchangeable.
+1000
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Quit playing the martyr. It is unbecoming.
Quit posting garbage. It's a waste of space.
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4) Burton left primarily due to wanting to be a 3 (not a 4 - which is what Wojo wanted). Deonte essentially wanted the minutes Derrick was getting 25-30 minutes per game - and had a hard time processing Derrick getting those minutes with Carlino and Duane being the clear cut best two guards and basically them being interchangeable.
This is the only point I have trouble with. I'm sure Burton realized that once Luke was here, he would shift to the three. In fact, I know he knew that. If the only thing motivating him to leave was wanting to play the three, all he had to do was wait 10 days and he would have gotten his wish.
Derrick Wilson had NOTHING to do with Deonte's transfer. #donedeal
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This is the only point I have trouble with. I'm sure Burton realized that once Luke was here, he would shift to the three. In fact, I know he knew that. If the only thing motivating him to leave was wanting to play the three, all he had to do was wait 10 days and he would have gotten his wish.
Derrick Wilson had NOTHING to do with Deonte's transfer. #donedeal
Agree with this. If Wojo was telling Deonte he'd still be playing a 4 after Luke came into the rotation, I and a large majority of posters are all way off on what would have been the rotation/depth chart had Deonte stayed.
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To clarify a few of the posts made by those who love to hate on me:
1) Yes, I preferred anything over Derrick last year (and this year). Wojo and Buzz see it differently. That's fine. Believe they both got/are getting far too caught up in the intangibles with regard to Derrick, than the actual tangibles.
2) Never said Dawson would be "Magic Johnson." Said he made a few passes against Grambling (yes Grambling) that were Magic Johnson good.
3) Don't be so sure Dawson ends up at a mid-major. Big 12 schools inquiring. NO decision will be made before Christmas.
4) Burton left primarily due to wanting to be a 3 (not a 4 - which is what Wojo wanted). Deonte essentially wanted the minutes Derrick was getting 25-30 minutes per game - and had a hard time processing Derrick getting those minutes with Carlino and Duane being the clear cut best two guards and basically them being interchangeable.
This just in Derrick Wilson is founder of ISIS, shot Bambi's mom, and sells illegal cigarettes to kindergarteners. Give it up. Seriously, Derrick had nothing to do with Burton's transfer. If Burton wanted to be a three he had two guys in front of him at that position and their names aren't Derrick. Your level of dislike for Derrick has hit a new low. Not only is he a bad basketball player who somehow convinced two staffs that he should play but now has driven away two of his teammates. Don't you think if Wilson was so bad that other players would start to protest, especially after driving a talent away like Burton. You just can't stop digging.
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To clarify a few of the posts made by those who love to hate on me:
1) Yes, I preferred anything over Derrick last year (and this year). Wojo and Buzz see it differently. That's fine. Believe they both got/are getting far too caught up in the intangibles with regard to Derrick, than the actual tangibles.
2) Never said Dawson would be "Magic Johnson." Said he made a few passes against Grambling (yes Grambling) that were Magic Johnson good.
3) Don't be so sure Dawson ends up at a mid-major. Big 12 schools inquiring. NO decision will be made before Christmas.
4) Burton left primarily due to wanting to be a 3 (not a 4 - which is what Wojo wanted). Deonte essentially wanted the minutes Derrick was getting 25-30 minutes per game - and had a hard time processing Derrick getting those minutes with Carlino and Duane being the clear cut best two guards and basically them being interchangeable.
1. Really? How could we know?
2. No
3. He will if he wants to play.
4. Obviously he wanted to be a '3', but the team makeup didn't allow it this year. Reminds me of Rickie Weeks preferring to sit on the bench rather than play the OF.
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Quit posting garbage. It's a waste of space.
Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahah. Ok you are right. Sorry. I will try to be more prudent in my posts in the future. I wouldn't want to waste anyone's time or bandwidth.
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Jeronne's dad wanted him to be a 2 and have the offense run through him. Players don't get to make demands.
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Burton will decide between UCLA and Iowa State
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Burton will decide between UCLA and Iowa State
Ames or So Cal? So Cal or Ames? Sigh...it's a tough call.
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Ames or So Cal? So Cal or Ames? Sigh...it's a tough call.
No teal needed there.