MUScoop

How long will Wojo give Derrick to prove he can shoot at a respectable level for a starting point guard at a high D1 school before he severely restricts his playing time.

My definition of respectable is 70 percent from the line and 33 percent from 3 point line.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 08, 2014, 10:19:19 PM
How long will Wojo give Derrick to prove he can shoot at a respectable level for a starting point guard at a high D1 school before he severely restricts his playing time.

My definition of respectable is 70 percent from the line and 33 percent from 3 point line.

I guarantee he won't reach those stats. My guess is after a couple games wojo sees that Matt Duane Jon are all better shooters and his minutes drop to a defensive role player.

(http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/snail-abandons-thread.gif)

Derrick will play and likely not score much. This year we have alternatives. Hope I am wrong.

Quote from: Johnny Basketball on September 08, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
I guarantee he won't reach those stats. My guess is after a couple games wojo sees that Matt Duane Jon are all better shooters and his minutes drop to a defensive role player.

Those stats are approximately what the Villanova point guard had. If Derrick can perform to this level it would be great for us. If he doesn't then I hope your right and Wojo moves on. I really think we need to give max minutes to Duane.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 08, 2014, 10:55:56 PM
Those stats are approximately what the Villanova point guard had. If Derrick can perform to this level it would be great for us. If he doesn't then I hope your right and Wojo moves on. I really think we need to give max minutes to Duane.

I agree, I think Duane is our future and he needs to play.

Quote from: Johnny Basketball on September 08, 2014, 11:16:47 PM
I agree, I think Duane is our future and he needs to play.

Max minutes for Duane equals max production for Deonte.

I don't think Derrick will be starting and will get minutes only in defensive situations and blowouts. He has had three seasons to show what he can do. He is who he is and one offseason of shooting a bunch of jumpers isn't going to change a whole lifetime of bad shooting.

No mention of Dawson...

Quote from: keefe on September 08, 2014, 11:54:00 PM
No mention of Dawson...

liked him in Hogan's Heroes but not so much on Family Feud

I think you just do not give him credit for being the team leader. He will play simply because Wojo will like him. Remember he worked to keep the team together and did the blogs this summer about the team. Irregardless of his abilities he is a player the coach is simply going to like and trust.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 08, 2014, 10:19:19 PM
How long will Wojo give Derrick to prove he can shoot at a respectable level for a starting point guard at a high D1 school before he severely restricts his playing time.

My definition of respectable is 70 percent from the line and 33 percent from 3 point line.

So, your poll assumes that Derrick won't be able to reach those numbers?  All that shooting practice this summer in vain!

I'm a Derrick fan.

I think he can be effective for 20mpg.

I think he'll probably start early in the year, and depending upon how it goes, we'll see what happens.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 08, 2014, 10:55:56 PM
Those stats are approximately what the Villanova point guard had. If Derrick can perform to this level it would be great for us. If he doesn't then I hope your right and Wojo moves on. I really think we need to give max minutes to Duane.

So, you define Ryan Arcidiacono as "respectable".    May Marquette have five "respectable" starters this year. ;D


Why not ask the question of how long Wojo will stick with Duane, if Duane doesn't produce "respectable" numbers?

Quote from: madhouse on September 09, 2014, 10:43:19 AM
liked him in Hogan's Heroes but not so much on Family Feud

Newkirk thought he was cool but he wasn't. I preferred Kinch and LeBeau. Carter? Now there was an effen moron!

Quote from: Texas Western on September 08, 2014, 10:19:19 PM
How long will Wojo give Derrick to prove he can shoot at a respectable level for a starting point guard at a high D1 school before he severely restricts his playing time.

My definition of respectable is 70 percent from the line and 33 percent from 3 point line.

By your definition Dominique James was a seriously less than respectable point guard. I disagree.

Did a few posters commenting on this thread suffer serious head injuries since last season ended?

Can you add an option for the first practice? I'd vote on that? Silly poll question, he can't shoot and your numbers are ridiculous. 33% from 3 is pretty solid, that's about what Carlino shot. Wilson will be closer to 23%. It's not something you can fix in one summer, he should have been doing this his entire life....too many bad habits formed.

Quote from: bilsu on September 09, 2014, 10:46:56 AM
I think you just do not give him credit for being the team leader. He will play simply because Wojo will like him. Remember he worked to keep the team together and did the blogs this summer about the team. Irregardless of his abilities he is a player the coach is simply going to like and trust.

Are you inferring that he should receive playing time because he kept the team together and he is a good guy? Wojo needs to keep his personal opinions separate from what is good for the team. If Derrick proves to be the best player then play him, if not he needs to roll with the better option. This is high major basketball and playing someone regardless of ability is a recipe for disaster, hence last years record.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on September 08, 2014, 11:36:01 PM
I don't think Derrick will be starting and will get minutes only in defensive situations and blowouts. He has had three seasons to show what he can do. He is who he is and one offseason of shooting a bunch of jumpers isn't going to change a whole lifetime of bad shooting.

I think this might be the winner.

Quote from: Afroman on September 09, 2014, 11:31:39 AM
Did a few posters commenting on this thread suffer serious head injuries since last season ended?

Ganja, mon, ganja.

Quote from: esotericmindguy on September 09, 2014, 11:35:09 AM
Can you add an option for the first practice? I'd vote on that? Silly poll question, he can't shoot and your numbers are ridiculous. 33% from 3 is pretty solid, that's about what Carlino shot. Wilson will be closer to 23%. It's not something you can fix in one summer, he should have been doing this his entire life....too many bad habits formed.

This part I'm not sure about. I'm no expert, but his shot form seems to be pretty close to perfect. I don't think he'll ever be a lights out shooter, or even an average one, but I think he could potentially get to Junior Cadougan type levels.

Derrick Wilson has been playing basketball all of his life. He has never been a good shooter and never will be. Haters here thought he should be playing scrub minutes behind Dawson last year. This year's coach will have 3 better options than we had last year to play in front of Derrick - a year older Dawson, Du Wilson and Carlino. So this year that segment of the fan base should excoriate Wojo if (when) Derrick plays at all. They won't, though.

Quote from: LittleMurs on September 09, 2014, 10:51:07 AM
So, your poll assumes that Derrick won't be able to reach those numbers?  All that shooting practice this summer in vain!

It assumes that Wojo wont give away another year to a poor shooting point guard.  Option 5 essentially implies he will make the numbers.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 09, 2014, 12:05:57 PM
It assumes that Wojo wont give away another year to a poor shooting point guard.  Option 5 essentially implies he will make the numbers.

So your poll should have asked: How many games will Wojo give away by playing Derrick

       1. None, he'll never see the court
       2. A few, he a rookie coach and doesn't know what we know
       3. Several, I hear he's a hard headed Polak
       4. The whole damn season

Quote from: Texas Western on September 09, 2014, 12:05:57 PM
It assumes that Wojo wont give away another year to a poor shooting point guard.  Option 5 essentially implies he will make the numbers.

I guess I read it the opposite way, i.e. Wojo will play Derrick all season long to see if Derrick will finally be able to put up the numbers at the very end. (before being benched)

Quote from: Johnny Basketball on September 08, 2014, 10:24:11 PM
I guarantee he won't reach those stats. My guess is after a couple games wojo sees that Matt Duane Jon are all better shooters and his minutes drop to a defensive role player.

What about the 25,000 shots he took this summer?

Quote from: willie warrior on September 09, 2014, 12:45:34 PM
What about the 25,000 shots he took this summer?

he made about 7% of them

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 09, 2014, 11:59:40 AM
This part I'm not sure about. I'm no expert, but his shot form seems to be pretty close to perfect. I don't think he'll ever be a lights out shooter, or even an average one, but I think he could potentially get to Junior Cadougan type levels.

I've been told I have a nice golf swing, but the balls sprays. One summer of playing isn't going to get me to near expert levels (33% & 70%).

Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 09, 2014, 12:18:47 PM
So your poll should have asked: How many games will Wojo give away by playing Derrick

       1. None, he'll never see the court
       2. A few, he a rookie coach and doesn't know what we know
       3. Several, I hear he's a hard headed Polak
       4. The whole damn season

Well put.

Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on September 09, 2014, 10:52:11 AM
I'm a Derrick fan.

I think he can be effective for 20mpg.

I think he'll probably start early in the year, and depending upon how it goes, we'll see what happens.

A PG HAS to be a playmaker to be effective.  Have to make everyone around you better.  We got 937 minutes last season to see that the exact opposite effect happened.  YOu have to do more than play solid D and not turn the ball over.  Yet, how is someone going to turn the ball over when they aren't pressured, and their defender sags off 5 feet?

Derrick is a 10-15 minute a game guy at best at this level - unless he shows within the first 10 games that his shooting has improved tremendously - a la Vander Blue.  I was shocked at Vander's improvement as a junior as far as his shooting was concerned.  Rarely will you see a player make that kind of leap.

In Derrick's case, my feeling is that he's never been a very good shooter, and his biggest detriment is his build.  He's simply TOO built - that takes away fluidity needed to be good shooter.  There's a reason you rarely see basketball players built like Derrick.

Quote from: Ners on September 09, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
In Derrick's case, my feeling is that he's never been a very good shooter, and his biggest detriment is his build.  He's simply TOO built - that takes away fluidity needed to be good shooter.  There's a reason you rarely see basketball players built like Derrick.

Hmmm. Have you seen any photos of LeBron since, well, since he was 15?

Mailman Malone became an outstanding shooter even though he had a physique like a rock. Jordan bulked up for his comeback. Larry Johnson was chiseled out of granite. Blake Griffin - darn reliable shooter. Ron Freakin' Artist was jacked - and not a bad shooter at all.

Of course, those guys are all much taller. Derrick's body type is almost identical to that of Derek Fisher, whose 3-point shooting helped the Lakers win numerous titles.

But I will say that Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard never could shoot, so maybe Derrick is a mini version of them and not the others I named!

Here's the deal: Some guys can shoot, some can't!

Quote from: MU82 on September 09, 2014, 03:34:42 PM
Hmmm. Have you seen any photos of LeBron since, well, since he was 15?

Mailman Malone became an outstanding shooter even though he had a physique like a rock. Jordan bulked up for his comeback. Larry Johnson was chiseled out of granite. Blake Griffin - darn reliable shooter. Ron Freakin' Artist was jacked - and not a bad shooter at all.

Of course, those guys are all much taller. Derrick's body type is almost identical to that of Derek Fisher, whose 3-point shooting helped the Lakers win numerous titles.

But I will say that Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard never could shoot, so maybe Derrick is a mini version of them and not the others I named!

Here's the deal: Some guys can shoot, some can't!

Compairing Derrick Wilson to Derrick Fischer is like comparing Mt. Everest to a cup of dirt.

Quote from: MU82 on September 09, 2014, 03:34:42 PM
Hmmm. Have you seen any photos of LeBron since, well, since he was 15?

Mailman Malone became an outstanding shooter even though he had a physique like a rock. Jordan bulked up for his comeback. Larry Johnson was chiseled out of granite. Blake Griffin - darn reliable shooter. Ron Freakin' Artist was jacked - and not a bad shooter at all.

Of course, those guys are all much taller. Derrick's body type is almost identical to that of Derek Fisher, whose 3-point shooting helped the Lakers win numerous titles.

But I will say that Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard never could shoot, so maybe Derrick is a mini version of them and not the others I named!

Here's the deal: Some guys can shoot, some can't!

Yeah, but, Jon Harris

I predict that he will be the first person in history to miss the majority of shots that he doesn't take.

Quote from: Johnny Basketball on September 09, 2014, 03:43:59 PM
Compairing Derrick Wilson to Derrick Fischer is like comparing Mt. Everest to a cup of dirt.

Not sure what this even means, but OK.

And I compared Derrick to Derek, not to another Derrick.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on September 09, 2014, 11:47:53 AM
Are you inferring that he should receive playing time because he kept the team together and he is a good guy? Wojo needs to keep his personal opinions separate from what is good for the team. If Derrick proves to be the best player then play him, if not he needs to roll with the better option. This is high major basketball and playing someone regardless of ability is a recipe for disaster, hence last years record.

Wojo said that the players that give 100% everyday will play. Derrick always gives 100%. There are several returning players that cannot claim that. Derrick would not play significant minutes on a top 10 team, but I am not sure we have any players that would. I believe Duane and Carlino will see the most minutes at guard, but Derrick will play significant minutes backing up both guard spots and the three.

Lets face it. Hes just a bad shooter. Sure he can improve but to what extent over a single summer? Some people just cant shoot, its not anything bad but he just doesn't have a whole lot else on the offensive end to compensate for that and that's where the problems start.

Quote from: bilsu on September 09, 2014, 03:51:59 PM
Wojo said that the players that give 100% everyday will play. Derrick always gives 100%. There are several returning players that cannot claim that. Derrick would not play significant minutes on a top 10 team, but I am not sure we have any players that would. I believe Duane and Carlino will see the most minutes at guard, but Derrick will play significant minutes backing up both guard spots and the three.

Wrongo--Derrick will not back up both guard spots--no way, no how, no sir! And he will not play the three!

Quote from: willie warrior on September 09, 2014, 03:56:50 PM
Wrongo--Derrick will not back up both guard spots--no way, no how, no sir! And he will not play the three!

Are you saying he will start?

Derrick is much more effective as a backup than as a starter. He is better as a change of pace than as the number one option. Derrick is effective when defenses treat him like he's a legitimate scoring threat. If he comes in off the bench to play 8-18 minutes a game, I don't think defenses will shift to account for him.

Derrick will almost certainly be a starter at the beginning of the year and will probably play about 20 minutes a game, maybe more in the first half of the season.  We don't have enough players for it to be much different than that IMO. 

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on September 09, 2014, 05:28:03 PM
Derrick will almost certainly be a starter at the beginning of the year and will probably play about 20 minutes a game, maybe more in the first half of the season.  We don't have enough players for it to be much different than that IMO. 

If he starts were in trouble.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 09, 2014, 04:36:48 PM
Are you saying he will start?

Pretty self explanatory.....Reading...is...fundamental!!!!!

Quote from: Johnny Basketball on September 09, 2014, 05:45:49 PM
If he starts were in trouble.

He and Carlino start as they are both seniors and experienced at this level.  That seems fairly obvious.

Who's going to start over Derrick?  Duane who has never played a minute of college ball?  Dawson? 

Am I forgetting somebody? 

Derrick can potentially extend his playing minutes just by slapping the floor.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on September 09, 2014, 06:03:31 PM
He and Carlino start as they are both seniors and experienced at this level.  That seems fairly obvious.

Who's going to start over Derrick?  Duane who has never played a minute of college ball?  Dawson? 

Am I forgetting somebody? 

I don't know ... Wojo's mentor started an awful lot of guys who had never played a minute of college ball if he thought they were better than veterans.

Duane's no Jabari Parker, true. But last year's starting PG would have had to walk on at Duke.

Quote from: MU82 on September 09, 2014, 06:14:09 PM
I don't know ... Wojo's mentor started an awful lot of guys who had never played a minute of college ball if he thought they were better than veterans.

Duane's no Jabari Parker, true. But last year's starting PG would have had to walk on at Duke.

MU is not Duke (sorry to say).

I doubt we have any players on our team that would be scholarship players at Duke...did any of the guys on our team get an offer from them?

Anyway, Derrick starts to begin the season.  I am quite sure. 

If he doesn't, then that's a good sign we might be a lot better than what I think we are going to be.

Quote from: bilsu on September 09, 2014, 10:46:56 AM
I think you just do not give him credit for being the team leader. He will play simply because Wojo will like him. Remember he worked to keep the team together and did the blogs this summer about the team. Irregardless of his abilities he is a player the coach is simply going to like and trust.

I'm really not sure who is going to start.  What role does Carlino play?  How good are Dawson, Duane and JJJ?  What system will Wojo run? 

I think Derrick Wilson will get about 20 mpg.  But he won't get the 30 mpg he got last year. 

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 09, 2014, 05:15:25 PM
Derrick is much more effective as a backup than as a starter. He is better as a change of pace than as the number one option. Derrick is effective when defenses treat him like he's a legitimate scoring threat. If he comes in off the bench to play 8-18 minutes a game, I don't think defenses will shift to account for him.

Agreed. Also I think when he comes in for spot duty he can play at max speed for 3-4 minutes , push it up the court, go for steals etc be more of a disruptive factor. I prefer that than having him dribble to the sideline 35 feet from the basket.

Quote from: MU82 on September 09, 2014, 03:34:42 PM
Hmmm. Have you seen any photos of LeBron since, well, since he was 15?

Mailman Malone became an outstanding shooter even though he had a physique like a rock. Jordan bulked up for his comeback. Larry Johnson was chiseled out of granite. Blake Griffin - darn reliable shooter. Ron Freakin' Artist was jacked - and not a bad shooter at all.

Of course, those guys are all much taller. Derrick's body type is almost identical to that of Derek Fisher, whose 3-point shooting helped the Lakers win numerous titles.

But I will say that Ben Wallace and Dwight Howard never could shoot, so maybe Derrick is a mini version of them and not the others I named!

Here's the deal: Some guys can shoot, some can't!

I don't feel Blake Griffin is a good perimeter shooter, nor was Larry Johnson, nor Karl Malone - maybe they had a mid-range game - but those guys largely are/were stars due to their power and what they were able to do around the rim...and all are 6'6" plus.

Derrick is probably 5'10" barefeet, weighs 205-215, is built like a tank - short arms.  LeBron?  He's a long muscle type of guy - yes he's built, as was Jordan, yet they are long armed and aren't nearly as muscle bound as Derrick. 

Derrick looks like he should be a halfback.  He's a powerful dude without question, has a super strong physique - yet I do feel his physique alone makes it very difficult to be a good shooter of the basketball.

Quote from: Ners on September 09, 2014, 07:34:13 PM
I don't feel Blake Griffin is a good perimeter shooter, nor was Larry Johnson, nor Karl Malone - maybe they had a mid-range game - but those guys largely are/were stars due to their power and what they were able to do around the rim...and all are 6'6" plus.

Derrick is probably 5'10" barefeet, weighs 205-215, is built like a tank - short arms.  LeBron?  He's a long muscle type of guy - yes he's built, as was Jordan, yet they are long armed and aren't nearly as muscle bound as Derrick. 

Derrick looks like he should be a halfback.  He's a powerful dude without question, has a super strong physique - yet I do feel his physique alone makes it very difficult to be a good shooter of the basketball.

Derricks future is in the NFL. I am sure he would blow away the combine.  He would certainly be worth a look.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 09, 2014, 07:44:39 PM
Derricks future is in the NFL. I am sure he would blow away the combine.  He would certainly be worth a look.

It would be interesting to see.  As I recall he was an all state caliber football player in HS as well.  On another note, his body and head will thank him later for choosing basketball.   :D

Quote from: Ners on September 09, 2014, 07:34:13 PM
I don't feel Blake Griffin is a good perimeter shooter, nor was Larry Johnson, nor Karl Malone - maybe they had a mid-range game - but those guys largely are/were stars due to their power and what they were able to do around the rim...and all are 6'6" plus.

Derrick is probably 5'10" barefeet, weighs 205-215, is built like a tank - short arms.  LeBron?  He's a long muscle type of guy - yes he's built, as was Jordan, yet they are long armed and aren't nearly as muscle bound as Derrick. 

Derrick looks like he should be a halfback.  He's a powerful dude without question, has a super strong physique - yet I do feel his physique alone makes it very difficult to be a good shooter of the basketball.

Larry Johnson was a 33% career shooter from 3-point range; very representative for a power player. Malone became extremely reliable from 20 and in - is that midrange? Griffin has a very nice 17-footer now. LeBron is built like an NFL linebacker.

And, again, Derek Fisher has almost the exact same build as Derrick and was a great outside shooter.

Denying all that doesn't make it less true.

I am sure of that...there are alot of players built with Derrick's body type and physique who were compact players who developed into good shooters.

I think it comes down to repetition and flexibility for guys who are a bit muscle bound in getting that extension and proper shot slot in their shot.

Derrick Fisher is an exellent example you used. World B. Free was built alot like Derrick is as well and he could put them up and in with the best of them.

Remember Pearl Washington of the SU? Mateen Cleaves of MSU. And Jordan Taylor of UW. All a bit like D.Wilson. He has good form and lift on his shot. It might have been a bit flat at times and comes off the rim long. . . but the technique is there.

But yeah, he would have made a heck of a running back or safety on the college level or NFL as would a lot of cats we had run through here.

But I say Derrick will be given 5 games but not long. They are too deep at his position and we have nto see Duane Wilson yet. Plus DWilson's calling card is Wojo type defense, not offense. I think Wojo will be a role based coach.

But I will say this, I do not know the trainer is for MU [who is it Todd Smith is it? Never met him...]but he helps to do a phenomenal job with transforming some of these players from when they first come in here to their senior year and early in their Pro careers physically and strength wise.

Stiff players all of a sudden have more lateral quickness and are more quicker and explosive and evenly centered and trimmed down into basketball weight and shape.

Quote from: Ners on September 09, 2014, 10:29:40 PM
It would be interesting to see.  As I recall he was an all state caliber football player in HS as well.  On another note, his body and head will thank him later for choosing basketball.   :D

I disagree. He should have stuck with football. And that is no knock on his skills as a basketball player at all.

He would have been excellent at football but so would have Jae Crowder and he is in the Association [NBA] so what do I know?

Too bad this University does not have both.

But that was up to him and he chose basketball. I think he can make a good coach someday as well. He has the bball IQ and temperment and leadership capabilities for it.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on September 09, 2014, 06:18:14 PM
MU is not Duke (sorry to say).

I doubt we have any players on our team that would be scholarship players at Duke...did any of the guys on our team get an offer from them?

Anyway, Derrick starts to begin the season.  I am quite sure.  

If he doesn't, then that's a good sign we might be a lot better than what I think we are going to be.

What!?

MU does have some players who could have been considered to be scholarship players at Duke when they came out of high school, what are you talking about?

Duane Wilson is one. If Quinn Cook went there he could have. Deonte Burton as well could have gone to Duke too if they offered. So might have JJJ.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on September 10, 2014, 12:58:23 AM
I disagree. He should have stuck with football. And that is no knock on his skills as a basketball player at all.

He would have been excellent at football but so would have Jae Crowder and he is in the Association [NBA] so what do I know?

Too bad this University does not have both.

But that was up to him and he chose basketball. I think he can make a good coach someday as well. He has the bball IQ and temperment and leadership capabilities for it.

What makes you think he has the bball IQ to be a good coach someday?

Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on September 09, 2014, 03:53:16 PM
Lets face it. Hes just a bad shooter. Sure he can improve but to what extent over a single summer? Some people just cant shoot, its not anything bad but he just doesn't have a whole lot else on the offensive end to compensate for that and that's where the problems start.

No, I have seen him. He can shoot. He just releases the ball in the back of his hand too much and does not get enough arc under it.

But he has solid mechanics and form. He is thick handed and heavy handed shooter. Meaning, to me guys or gals with long wide and slim hands and fingers can grip the ball differently and launch it and have a better snap follow throw on the ball then guys who have meater hands and normal arms length wise. Sorry to get too technical but I could explain it more if I had more time...suffice to say. He could improve with some minor tweaking and adjustments. I've seen him play up close I know. Trust me. He can get better.

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on September 10, 2014, 01:06:13 AM
What makes you think he has the bball IQ to be a good coach someday?

I don't know much about Derrick's bball IQ, but he has the leadership skills. Talk to any of the guys on the team. Even if he doesn't have the skills to match, they all respect the hell out of Derrick. He is the team's leader. He just doesn't have the shot to match. I would not be surprised at all if he ended up coaching one day.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on September 10, 2014, 01:12:16 AM
I don't know much about Derrick's bball IQ, but he has the leadership skills. Talk to any of the guys on the team. Even if he doesn't have the skills to match, they all respect the hell out of Derrick. He is the team's leader. He just doesn't have the shot to match. I would not be surprised at all if he ended up coaching one day.

I don't know about his bball IQ either, that's why I was asking why he thought this. I don't doubt that he is a team leader, always have very much respected his character on and off the court.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on September 10, 2014, 01:03:15 AM
What!?

MU does have some players who could have been considered to be scholarship players at Duke when they came out of high school, what are you talking about?

Duane Wilson is one. If Quinn Cook went there he could have. Deonte Burton as well could have gone to Duke too if they offered. So might have JJJ.

Name one player on our team who had a scholorship offer from Duke, not "they could have gone there IF Duke had offered." 

Not trying to knock our guys, just the reality.

Quote from: MU82 on September 09, 2014, 11:36:32 PM
Larry Johnson was a 33% career shooter from 3-point range; very representative for a power player. Malone became extremely reliable from 20 and in - is that midrange? Griffin has a very nice 17-footer now. LeBron is built like an NFL linebacker.

And, again, Derek Fisher has almost the exact same build as Derrick and was a great outside shooter.

Denying all that doesn't make it less true.

Derek Fisher is the only relevant example.  As I said before, the other guys you mentioned are all 6'6" plus, and while powerfully built, all have longer muscle structure.  It is much more difficult for a muscle bound, stocky, short armed guy to shoot a basketball well.  Jordan, Malone, LeBron, and even LJ all have very long arms.

Someone else mentioned Mateen Cleaves - Cleaves was never a good shooter.  Jordan Taylor?  He was taller and longer armed than is Derrick.

As MUHoopsFan2 pointed out, Derrick has thick/heavy hands (great for a boxer), and that also affects an ability to shoot with touch.

I'm not hating on Derrick here in anyway - I'm simply saying that his build alone makes it much more challenging to be a good shooter than is the case for most high major basketball players.

Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on September 10, 2014, 01:09:51 AM
No, I have seen him. He can shoot. He just releases the ball in the back of his hand too much and does not get enough arc under it.

But he has solid mechanics and form. He is thick handed and heavy handed shooter. Meaning, to me guys or gals with long wide and slim hands and fingers can grip the ball differently and launch it and have a better snap follow throw on the ball then guys who have meater hands and normal arms length wise. Sorry to get too technical but I could explain it more if I had more time...suffice to say. He could improve with some minor tweaking and adjustments. I've seen him play up close I know. Trust me. He can get better.

The question is how long will it take for him to get better. My sense is not in time for this season. Hence the question how long is Wojo willing to tolerate this situation.  Derrick is the kind of kid coaches will give the benefit of the doubt to because he works hard and is a leader. But that only goes so far.

A leopard don't change his spots, hey?

Just to put things in perspective. The TEAM free throw shooting percentage for Providence College last year was 78.2 percent which was better than our best guy.  It is virtually impossible to compete at the D 1 level with a 44.2 percent shooting point guard. It is unprecedented.

Quote from: willie warrior on September 09, 2014, 03:56:50 PM
Wrongo--Derrick will not back up both guard spots--no way, no how, no sir! And he will not play the three!

One of us will be right at the end of the season.

Quote from: Ners on September 10, 2014, 07:57:22 AM
Derek Fisher is the only relevant example.  As I said before, the other guys you mentioned are all 6'6" plus, and while powerfully built, all have longer muscle structure.  It is much more difficult for a muscle bound, stocky, short armed guy to shoot a basketball well.  Jordan, Malone, LeBron, and even LJ all have very long arms.

Someone else mentioned Mateen Cleaves - Cleaves was never a good shooter.  Jordan Taylor?  He was taller and longer armed than is Derrick.

As MUHoopsFan2 pointed out, Derrick has thick/heavy hands (great for a boxer), and that also affects an ability to shoot with touch.

I'm not hating on Derrick here in anyway - I'm simply saying that his build alone makes it much more challenging to be a good shooter than is the case for most high major basketball players.

MUHoopsFan also mentioned World B. Free - another stocky guy who was a great shooter.

And I've got another - Vinnie Johnson.

And here's another - Khalid El-Amin. Say what you want about his short Bulls career, but he shot 35% from 3-point range at UConn, averaged more than 15 points,  was the No. 2 scorer on a national title team and even started 14 games in the NBA. Pretty good college shooter despite his 5-foot-10, 203 lbs frame.

Ners, you're probably right when you say compact and/or muscular smaller players tend not to be as good shooters. As with most generalizations, however, there are so many exceptions that it ends up being only an excuse.

Again, SOME GUYS JUST CAN'T SHOOT! And some muscular men - big and small - shoot very well.

Quote from: Texas Western on September 10, 2014, 08:51:05 AM
Just to put things in perspective. The TEAM free throw shooting percentage for Providence College last year was 78.2 percent which was better than our best guy.  It is virtually impossible to compete at the D 1 level with a 44.2 percent shooting point guard. It is unprecedented.

Take away Dominic James dunks and he probably had a worse shooting percentage than Wilson, which did not stop James from taking shots. James also was a horrible free throw shooter. The big difference between James and Wilson is that James was actually a point guard. Derrick is not a point guard and playing him at the two and the three will make things easier for him. Although, if you take Wojo by his word there will be no designated point guard on this team. Basically, whichever guard has the ball will initiate the offense. This makes sense, because this team has a lot of combo guards and no true point guard. I never liked the term combo guard, because it always seemed to me that these are guards that are not good enough at shooting to be called a shooting guard and not good enough at point to be called a point guard.

Quote from: bilsu on September 10, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Take away Dominic James dunks and he probably had a worse shooting percentage than Wilson, which did not stop James from taking shots. James also was a horrible free throw shooter. The big difference between James and Wilson is that James was actually a point guard. Derrick is not a point guard and playing him at the two and the three will make things easier for him. Although, if you take Wojo by his word there will be no designated point guard on this team. Basically, whichever guard has the ball will initiate the offense. This makes sense, because this team has a lot of combo guards and no true point guard. I never liked the term combo guard, because it always seemed to me that these are guards that are not good enough at shooting to be called a shooting guard and not good enough at point to be called a point guard.

I dont think dominic was worse than 7%.

Quote from: bilsu on September 10, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Take away Dominic James dunks and he probably had a worse shooting percentage than Wilson, which did not stop James from taking shots. James also was a horrible free throw shooter. The big difference between James and Wilson is that James was actually a point guard. Derrick is not a point guard and playing him at the two and the three will make things easier for him. Although, if you take Wojo by his word there will be no designated point guard on this team. Basically, whichever guard has the ball will initiate the offense. This makes sense, because this team has a lot of combo guards and no true point guard. I never liked the term combo guard, because it always seemed to me that these are guards that are not good enough at shooting to be called a shooting guard and not good enough at point to be called a point guard.

You are aware the the 2 guard position is also referred to as a shooting guard, correct?  If there is one thing I am absolutely sure of this upcoming season, Derrick Wilson will not be playing the 2.  I can only imagine seeing Derrick run the baseline for a look off of a double screen - a la Reggie Miller - and Derrick round into a nice 3.   ;D

Yes I am aware that the 2 guard is the shooting guard spot. I am also aware that Derrick was a 2 guard in high school. Buzz trying to make him into a point guard was a disaster, because Derrick has no point guard skills. I am not saying he is going to start, but he is going to play. I also take Wojo at his word when he said the team will not have a designated point guard and that the players that give the maximum effort are going to play a lot..

Quote from: Johnny Basketball on September 10, 2014, 02:34:16 PM
I dont think dominic was worse than 7%.

I was referring to overall shooting percentage and not 3 point shooting. Remove James fast break dunks and Derrick's three point shooting it would not surprise me if Derrcik's junior percentage is higher than James' senior percentage.

Quote from: bilsu on September 10, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Take away Dominic James dunks and he probably had a worse shooting percentage than Wilson, which did not stop James from taking shots. James also was a horrible free throw shooter. The big difference between James and Wilson is that James was actually a point guard. Derrick is not a point guard and playing him at the two and the three will make things easier for him. Although, if you take Wojo by his word there will be no designated point guard on this team. Basically, whichever guard has the ball will initiate the offense. This makes sense, because this team has a lot of combo guards and no true point guard. I never liked the term combo guard, because it always seemed to me that these are guards that are not good enough at shooting to be called a shooting guard and not good enough at point to be called a point guard.

How many guys that are 6ft and can't shoot play the 2 and 3? Good grief do you understand what you are saying...how can a guy who can't shoot be effective at the 2 and 3, and at 6ft besides that smh. Why not just have him play the 5 for us while were at it  :o

Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on September 11, 2014, 12:03:50 AM
How many guys that are 6ft and can't shoot play the 2 and 3? Good grief do you understand what you are saying...how can a guy who can't shoot be effective at the 2 and 3, and at 6ft besides that smh. Why not just have him play the 5 for us while were at it  :o

Well, you may recall Buzz did try to essentially "hide"/play Derrick at the 5 last year.  In Buzz's brilliant mind last year, he concluded he could try to play Derrick in the paint, as a way to force teams to guard him - as that wasn't happening on the perimeter. So in Buzz's bizarro world last year, he simply further crowded the painted area where Davante and Jamil historically had done a lot of damage while at MU.  Took about a F'd up "strategy."