MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: ChicosBailBonds on June 16, 2014, 10:29:46 AM
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Very sad. My favorite ball player growing up and an absolute gem of a person if you ever had a chance to meet him. Many don't know what a pretty good basketball player he was as he played guard for San Diego State.
Very sad. Phenomenal hitter, better person.
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Very sad. My favorite ball player growing up and an absolute gem of a person if you ever had a chance to meet him. Many don't know what a pretty good basketball player he was as he played guard for San Diego State.
Very sad. Phenomenal hitter, better person.
Didn't hear that but he was a great ball player and superb individual.
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Very sad. My favorite ball player growing up and an absolute gem of a person if you ever had a chance to meet him. Many don't know what a pretty good basketball player he was as he played guard for San Diego State.
Very sad. Phenomenal hitter, better person.
Wow...had he been having health issues? Always seemed to be a class act.
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He had salivary gland cancer. Too much dip during his playing days. Too bad, he was really one of the good ones.
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Wow...had he been having health issues? Always seemed to be a class act.
Had cancer part of his cheek had to be removed. Was making a recovery, but then it came back. Very sad, terrific man.
Was two time all conference basketball player at San Diego State. If I recall, drafted by the Clippers. Obviously one of the greatest baseball hitters ever.
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Stat
Hit safely in 75% of the MLB games he played in. Think about that.
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Stat
Hit safely in 75% of the MLB games he played in. Think about that.
Considering the duration his career, that's Ripkenesque right there.
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Tony Gwynn was one of the greatest AVERAGE hitters of all time. If power and runs produced count I think he probably moves down to about 50.
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Don't remember the numbers exactly, but I heard he faced Maddox about 107 times had 45 ish hits and never struck out.
He also was a career .302 hitter ---- with 2 strikes. Simply amazing.
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Gwynn was not asked to be a power hitter. I remember an interview with Ted Williams saying if Gwynn wanted to hit 35 homeruns a year, he could easily but that is not what he was asked to do. Gwynn still managed to get 17 and I think a few at 14 or 15. Over 1100 RBIs in his career and played on some piss poor Padres teams over the years.
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Cancer sucks.
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Don't remember the numbers exactly, but I heard he faced Maddox about 107 times had 45 ish hits and never struck out.
He also was a career .302 hitter ---- with 2 strikes. Simply amazing.
Actually .335 hitter with 2 strikes according to ESPN tonight
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Gwynn was not asked to be a power hitter. I remember an interview with Ted Williams saying if Gwynn wanted to hit 35 homeruns a year, he could easily but that is not what he was asked to do. Gwynn still managed to get 17 and I think a few at 14 or 15. Over 1100 RBIs in his career and played on some piss poor Padres teams over the years.
Loved him as a player. Loved him as a person. And he was a great hitter. But c'mon. A guy who averaged 8 HRs and 70 RBIs a year could have easily hit 35 a year but he didn't because he was not asked to? He left nearly 500 HRs and maybe 800 RBIs on the table because he wasn't asked to be a power hitter? He chose to be Wade Boggs rather than Willie Mays? Because that's what he and the Padres preferred? Somewhere Tony Gwynn is having a good laugh.
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Very sad. My favorite ball player growing up and an absolute gem of a person if you ever had a chance to meet him. Many don't know what a pretty good basketball player he was as he played guard for San Diego State.
Very sad. Phenomenal hitter, better person.
This is a great read from Deadspin- http://deadspin.com/i-was-tony-gwynns-bat-boy-1592123043?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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Gwynn was not asked to be a power hitter. I remember an interview with Ted Williams saying if Gwynn wanted to hit 35 homeruns a year, he could easily but that is not what he was asked to do. Gwynn still managed to get 17 and I think a few at 14 or 15. Over 1100 RBIs in his career and played on some piss poor Padres teams over the years.
Jack Clark - .136 Runs per plate appearance in MLB, .143 RBIs per PA. Career OBP .379, Career SLG .476
Tony Gwynn - .135 Runs per PA, .111 RBI per PA, career OBP .388, career SLG .459.
Jack Clark and Tony Gwynn were equally valuable major league hitters (though Clark probably more valuable), though hardly anyone can see it because of .338 BA vs .267 BA. I am using Clark as an example because nobody considers him an all-time great hitter, but he was every bit as good, probably better, at putting runs on the scoreboard than was Gwynn. Gwynn was by all accounts a wonderful man, but overrated as a hitter, because he didn't walk a ton so his OBPs weren't as great as you'd expect and too big a chunk of his batting average was singles.
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Loved him as a player. Loved him as a person. And he was a great hitter. But c'mon. A guy who averaged 8 HRs and 70 RBIs a year could have easily hit 35 a year but he didn't because he was not asked to? He left nearly 500 HRs and maybe 800 RBIs on the table because he wasn't asked to be a power hitter? He chose to be Wade Boggs rather than Willie Mays? Because that's what he and the Padres preferred? Somewhere Tony Gwynn is having a good laugh.
I'm not going to question what Ted Williams said. Mike Matheny last night on ESPN said one of the greatest displays of power he ever saw was from Tony Gwynn. Also said he was capable of hitting many more homeruns if he had chosen to, but set the table for his teammates behind him. Lilliquist said something similar.
In 1997, Gwynn had 13 home runs by the All Star break, using a heavier bat than he normally used. He went back to his lighter bat (lightest in baseball) and not surprisingly the HR's went down.
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Jack Clark - .136 Runs per plate appearance in MLB, .143 RBIs per PA. Career OBP .379, Career SLG .476
Tony Gwynn - .135 Runs per PA, .111 RBI per PA, career OBP .388, career SLG .459.
Jack Clark and Tony Gwynn were equally valuable major league hitters (though Clark probably more valuable), though hardly anyone can see it because of .338 BA vs .267 BA. I am using Clark as an example because nobody considers him an all-time great hitter, but he was every bit as good, probably better, at putting runs on the scoreboard than was Gwynn. Gwynn was by all accounts a wonderful man, but overrated as a hitter, because he didn't walk a ton so his OBPs weren't as great as you'd expect and too big a chunk of his batting average was singles.
Tony Gwynn batted 2nd for most of his career. When you bat 2nd, you don't get a lot of RBI opportunities. Your first at bat, at best, is a chance at 2 RBIs, but that is rare. In subsequent at bats, you are trailing the 8, 9, 1 hitters...again, not good RBI potential. Your job is to get on base.
Jack Clark batted 3rd or 4th. Gwynn got on base, the guys behind him supposed to knock him in. Let's reverse rolls, if Tony Gwynn was batting 3rd or 4th with guys on base vs Jack Clark batting second, how would they do?
It's about opportunity and what you are asked to do. Mike Trout right now is batting 2nd. If he was batting 3rd or 4th, his numbers would be off the charts, but they are asking him to hit 2nd for a reason right now. Fewer opportunities for him, more opportunities for the team, however.
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I'm not going to question what Ted Williams said. Mike Matheny last night on ESPN said one of the greatest displays of power he ever saw was from Tony Gwynn. Also said he was capable of hitting many more homeruns if he had chosen to, but set the table for his teammates behind him. Lilliquist said something similar.
Just heard a radio interview with a Padres beat writer from the time who said the same thing.
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Jack Clark - .136 Runs per plate appearance in MLB, .143 RBIs per PA. Career OBP .379, Career SLG .476
Tony Gwynn - .135 Runs per PA, .111 RBI per PA, career OBP .388, career SLG .459.
Jack Clark and Tony Gwynn were equally valuable major league hitters (though Clark probably more valuable), though hardly anyone can see it because of .338 BA vs .267 BA. I am using Clark as an example because nobody considers him an all-time great hitter, but he was every bit as good, probably better, at putting runs on the scoreboard than was Gwynn. Gwynn was by all accounts a wonderful man, but overrated as a hitter, because he didn't walk a ton so his OBPs weren't as great as you'd expect and too big a chunk of his batting average was singles.
Gwynn: .338/.388/.459 OPS: .847
Clark: .267/.379/.476 OPS: .854
Jack Clark walked A LOT.
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I'm a big fan of advanced stats...
HOWEVER, I think that it's hard to critique a guy(s) who followed a more conventional hitting approach in the past.
Kirby Puckett and Tony Gwynn got paid for HITS and AVERAGE, not OBP and BB's. Right or wrong, those 2 guys (maybe more than anybody in recent memory) were guys who were trying to get HITS every time up.
Don't strike out.
Walks are ok.
Hits are the best.
That's what everybody was doing, and Tony was the best at it.
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http://deadspin.com/i-was-tony-gwynns-bat-boy-1592123043
More world classiness
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Tony Gwynn batted 2nd for most of his career. When you bat 2nd, you don't get a lot of RBI opportunities. Your first at bat, at best, is a chance at 2 RBIs, but that is rare. In subsequent at bats, you are trailing the 8, 9, 1 hitters...again, not good RBI potential. Your job is to get on base.
Jack Clark batted 3rd or 4th. Gwynn got on base, the guys behind him supposed to knock him in. Let's reverse rolls, if Tony Gwynn was batting 3rd or 4th with guys on base vs Jack Clark batting second, how would they do?
It's about opportunity and what you are asked to do. Mike Trout right now is batting 2nd. If he was batting 3rd or 4th, his numbers would be off the charts, but they are asking him to hit 2nd for a reason right now. Fewer opportunities for him, more opportunities for the team, however.
But Clark had lesser hitters batting behind him and he scored as often as Gwynn. Gwynn had 3-4-5 hitters after him and Clark had 5-6-7. Bottom line is that a lineup of 9 Jack Clarks would score more runs than a lineup of 9 Tony Gwynns.
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It's simply the romantic allegiance to a statistic that over time has been shown to not be as valuable as another.
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I'm not going to question what Ted Williams said. Mike Matheny last night on ESPN said one of the greatest displays of power he ever saw was from Tony Gwynn. Also said he was capable of hitting many more homeruns if he had chosen to, but set the table for his teammates behind him. Lilliquist said something similar.
In 1997, Gwynn had 13 home runs by the All Star break, using a heavier bat than he normally used. He went back to his lighter bat (lightest in baseball) and not surprisingly the HR's went down.
I don't know if your Ted Williams quote is accurate ("Tony Gwynn could have EASILY hit 35 HRs a year) or if there was context that you're omitting, but if Tony Gwynn hit 500 less home runs in his career on purpose then Tony Gwynn is the dumbest player ever to put on a pair of spikes.
I can see the wheels grinding : Hmm...I could hit a home run and win the game right here, but I'm going to hit a single to "set the table" for my teammates instead. BS. Look, I've got nothing against Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs. Great hitters, Hall of Famers. But nobody, at least nobody with one functioning brain cell, chooses to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs if they could be Willie Mays or Ted Williams. I don't care who allegedly said it. If they did, it was dumb.
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But Clark had lesser hitters batting behind him and he scored as often as Gwynn. Gwynn had 3-4-5 hitters after him and Clark had 5-6-7. Bottom line is that a lineup of 9 Jack Clarks would score more runs than a lineup of 9 Tony Gwynns.
Just so I have this straight, are you suggesting that the guys hitting behind Gwynn during his career were equal to those hitting behind Clark in his career?
That's the argument you are making. I think you will find with very little effort that is not a strong argument on your part.
Clark played 3 years in the AL, with no pitchers hitting in front of him like Gwynn had to constantly. Clark had in some years major talent hitting behind him in the 4, 5, 6 slots. Gwynn's hitters behind him for most years are pedestrian. Not all years, but the teams for which the two played for are not a good comparison.
Clark played for the Cardinals, Yankees, Giants, Red Sox.
Gwynn played for the Padres, a team that has historically been poor minus a few magical seasons.
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I can see the wheels grinding : Hmm...I could hit a home run and win the game right here, but I'm going to hit a single to "set the table" for my teammates instead. BS. Look, I've got nothing against Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs. Great hitters, Hall of Famers. But nobody, at least nobody with one functioning brain cell, chooses to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs if they could be Willie Mays or Ted Williams. I don't care who allegedly said it. If they did, it was dumb.
I don't think the issue is being Mays or Williams.
But being a non-HOF, random "power hitter" type.
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I can see the wheels grinding : Hmm...I could hit a home run and win the game right here, but I'm going to hit a single to "set the table" for my teammates instead. BS. Look, I've got nothing against Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs. Great hitters, Hall of Famers. But nobody, at least nobody with one functioning brain cell, chooses to be Tony Gwynn or Wade Boggs if they could be Willie Mays or Ted Williams. I don't care who allegedly said it. If they did, it was dumb.
Tony Gwynn didn't choose to be anyone. He was Tony Gwynn, and he had a pretty damn good career just being himself.
In fact, if Willie Mays and Ted Williams were just starting their careers today, I would be willing to bet that either one would sign a deal with the devil to be the "next Tony Gwynn" (Tony Gwynn Jr. notwithstanding).
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I don't think the issue is being Mays or Williams.
But being a non-HOF, random "power hitter" type.
If Tony Gwynn could have "easily" hit 35 dingers a year that's around 650 for his career. About what Mays did and what Williams would have done without his wartime service. I think suggesting he could have "easily" done that or done anything close to that is ridiculous.
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If Tony Gwynn could have "easily" hit 35 dingers a year that's around 650 for his career. About what Mays did and what Williams would have done without his wartime service. I think suggesting he could have "easily" done that or done anything close to that is ridiculous.
I don't think he meant 35HRs a year for his entire career. I suspect there is nuance and meant during his prime that he could do that if asked to do that. Athletes have primes, Matheny and Williams were basing their comments on what they saw and what they felt, as baseball players, he was capable of.
How's your Blackhawks wardrobe holding up?
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I don't think he meant 35HRs a year for his entire career. I suspect there is nuance and meant during his prime that he could do that if asked to do that. Athletes have primes, Matheny and Williams were basing their comments on what they saw and what they felt, as baseball players, he was capable of.
How's your Blackhawks wardrobe holding up?
When I read "easily" that sounds like a baseline, not the max in his best year.
Don't have a "Blackhawk" or any other team's wardrobe. Played sports at a high enough level that I was able to wear some pretty nice uniforms of my own. No interest in somebody else's.
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Just so I have this straight, are you suggesting that the guys hitting behind Gwynn during his career were equal to those hitting behind Clark in his career?
That's the argument you are making. I think you will find with very little effort that is not a strong argument on your part.
I took the little effort. Jack Clark played on poor SF Giants teams during much of his prime. At any rate, teams, Clark played on scored and average of 667 runs/season and Gwynn for teams that averaged 691 runs/season (and I adjusted for the strike-shortened seasons) so in point of fact, Jack Clark had lesser teammates over the course of his career than did Gwynn, and despite this scored runs at an equal rate and drove them in at a higher rate.
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I took the little effort. Jack Clark played on poor SF Giants teams during much of his prime. At any rate, teams, Clark played on scored and average of 667 runs/season and Gwynn for teams that averaged 691 runs/season (and I adjusted for the strike-shortened seasons) so in point of fact, Jack Clark had lesser teammates over the course of his career than did Gwynn, and despite this scored runs at an equal rate and drove them in at a higher rate.
Ding, ding, ding.
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I believe I said guys hitting immediately behind Clark. You're comparing an entire team's runs scored, meaning batters 1 through 9 and any PH's. I'd take Clark's guys over the longhaul over Gwynn's, though both had teams in which there were star players.
At any rate, good article from one of the early statisticians. Called Gwynn was the best player of all time in getting hits. Plus he wasn't a world class douche like Jack Clark. ;)
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/sportingscene/2014/06/tony-gwynn-an-appreciation.html
I'm also a big Bill James fan, and James has Gwynn top 60 all time at any position, including pitcher and including Negro league players. For position players, Gwynn is 40th all time. Clark, doesn't get a sniff anywhere. Don't forget ball park, which OPS+ adjusts for. Gwynn didn't get to play in a place like Yankees Stadium, or Fenway.
The greatest baseball mind of our time, Bill James, wrote in 2001 about the change in the game. James wrote that despite the power explosion, even during the steroid era, no one made a run at Hack Wilson’s single-season RBI record of 191. “Why?” James asked. “Individually, power hitters have had seasons which are as good as any in history — but they don’t drive in as many runs, and their teams do not score as many runs as the great hitting teams of the 1930s. Why? Because nobody is setting the table. We’ve got offenses now that are wall-to-wall power hitters. The only people who aren’t power hitters are the guys who don’t hit anything; there really aren’t any good hitters, other than Tony Gwynn…”
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I believe I said guys hitting immediately behind Clark. You're comparing an entire team's runs scored, meaning batters 1 through 9 and any PH's. I'd take Clark's guys over the longhaul over Gwynn's, though both had teams in which there were star players.
Let's make sure I have this straight. So your position is that the 5-6-7 hitters (the guys that would bat behind Clark) on teams that score less runs are better than the 3-4-5 hitters (the guys that bat behind Gwynn) on teams that score more runs? You realize how ridiculous that is, right?
You are also correct that OPS+ adjusts for park, but Clark's OPS+ is better than Gwynn's.
At any rate my original point wasn't that Clark was a better player than Gwynn. He was a good example of a guy with a much lower batting average who was actually as productive or more productive at doing what counts, i.e. putting runs on the scoreboard. Most baseball fans would instinctively say that Gwynn was a far superior hitter to a guy like Clark when that is not true at all.
Gwynn's main advantage over Clark is his longevity and ability to avoid injury and stay on the field (despite not staying in peak physical condition, to say the least). Plus Gwynn added more value on defense. For those reasons, he rates higher (and rightfully so) on best lists, etc.
Also funny how you mention Bill James, who wrote about these guys when they were on the Padres together and noted then that Clark was the more productive hitter despite the batting averages and was the reason why I thought of him as the compare guy in the first place. Also funny because a long time ago you and I han a lengthy argument about Nolan Ryan and I used James to back up a point and you knocked James' opinion in favor of Maury Allen.
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Late to the thread.
My Gwynn story takes place at Candlestick Park circa 1990.
Batting practice had just ended for the Padres and they were walking off.
A couple of them signed. I wanted Gwynn, Roberto Alomar and Benito Santiago.
Ironically - especially with the discussion in this thread - Jack Clark was on that team.
As I waited and called out to the remaining players, everyone headed to the locker room.
Tony was the only player to stay and sign EVERYTHING. Not one fan turned away.
Every ball, card, program, cap, etc. was signed as he made his way down the 3rd base/left field line.
He could've charged for his autos like Will Clark did, that's why he rarely signed at games. (Plus the dude has a little "southern dixie" in him.)
You tell me an MLB player who does that nowadays.
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Late to the thread.
My Gwynn story takes place at Candlestick Park circa 1990.
Batting practice had just ended for the Padres and they were walking off.
A couple of them signed. I wanted Gwynn, Roberto Alomar and Benito Santiago.
Ironically - especially with the discussion in this thread - Jack Clark was on that team.
As I waited and called out to the remaining players, everyone headed to the locker room.
Tony was the only player to stay and sign EVERYTHING. Not one fan turned away.
Every ball, card, program, cap, etc. was signed as he made his way down the 3rd base/left field line.
He could've charged for his autos like Will Clark did, that's why he rarely signed at games. (Plus the dude has a little "southern dixie" in him.)
You tell me an MLB player who does that nowadays.
Witnessed the same thing with Cal Ripken Jr. On his farewell tour he stayed after each game and signed for everyone. It was pretty cool.
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Late to the thread.
My Gwynn story takes place at Candlestick Park circa 1990.
Batting practice had just ended for the Padres and they were walking off.
A couple of them signed. I wanted Gwynn, Roberto Alomar and Benito Santiago.
Ironically - especially with the discussion in this thread - Jack Clark was on that team.
As I waited and called out to the remaining players, everyone headed to the locker room.
Tony was the only player to stay and sign EVERYTHING. Not one fan turned away.
Every ball, card, program, cap, etc. was signed as he made his way down the 3rd base/left field line.
He could've charged for his autos like Will Clark did, that's why he rarely signed at games. (Plus the dude has a little "southern dixie" in him.)
You tell me an MLB player who does that nowadays.
It's weird, but if you had the last name of Clark it didn't seem to mix well with Gwynn. Gwynn and Jack Clark did not get along very well in SD, of course Jack has worn out his welcome just about everywhere, including his radio gig.
Will Clark, he and Gwynn didn't get off so swimmingly either when Will Clark decided to use a homophobic slur toward one of the bat boys of the Padres. Gwynn and a few Padres addressed it well.
http://www.sonsofstevegarvey.com/2014/06/deadspin-tony-gwynn-tribute-contains.html
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If Tony Gwynn could have "easily" hit 35 dingers a year that's around 650 for his career. About what Mays did and what Williams would have done without his wartime service. I think suggesting he could have "easily" done that or done anything close to that is ridiculous.
I agree with this. "Easily" implies that Gwynn could have been a consistently productive home-run hitter if he wanted to. I have heard the same claim (not from Williams but from others) that Ichiro also could be a big-HR guy "if he wanted to."
It's silliness, because anybody truly capable of "easily" hitting 40 HR is going to want to do it.
The guess is that Williams didn't really think Gwynn could be a 30-40 HR guy but that Gwynn could have hit quite a few more HRs if he changed his style some. The "easily" thing was hyperbole - which often comes with a compliment.
As for applying newer metrics, I agree with the comment that Gwynn believed a hit was more valuable than a walk - and that was common thinking for most of his era. I also agree that Gwynn probably would have had several 100 RBI years (or close to them) had he batted third rather than second.
Gwynn was a great hitter, an outstanding all-around player who could run the bases and field his position superbly (before he got fat) and a credit to the game.
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Gwynn had unreal bat control. He put the ball in play and hit to all fields. Would rather watch this student of hitting choke up a little with 2 strikes and slap the ball to left for a single, than a player today, who never adjusts to the count and keeps trying to jack one out or go for the walk.
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I agree with this. "Easily" implies that Gwynn could have been a consistently productive home-run hitter if he wanted to. I have heard the same claim (not from Williams but from others) that Ichiro also could be a big-HR guy "if he wanted to."
It's silliness, because anybody truly capable of "easily" hitting 40 HR is going to want to do it.
The guess is that Williams didn't really think Gwynn could be a 30-40 HR guy but that Gwynn could have hit quite a few more HRs if he changed his style some. The "easily" thing was hyperbole - which often comes with a compliment.
As for applying newer metrics, I agree with the comment that Gwynn believed a hit was more valuable than a walk - and that was common thinking for most of his era. I also agree that Gwynn probably would have had several 100 RBI years (or close to them) had he batted third rather than second.
Gwynn was a great hitter, an outstanding all-around player who could run the bases and field his position superbly (before he got fat) and a credit to the game.
Nice, non hyperbolic synopsis.
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Lifetime Intentional Walks....respect
Tony Gwynn 12th all time, behind Bonds, Aaron, Pujols, McCovery, Guerrero, Griffey Jr, Brett, Stargell, Murray, Frank Robinson and Manny Ramirez.
Jack Clark 73rd
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Lifetime Intentional Walks....respect
Tony Gwynn 12th all time, behind Bonds, Aaron, Pujols, McCovery, Guerrero, Griffey Jr, Brett, Stargell, Murray, Frank Robinson and Manny Ramirez.
Jack Clark 73rd
You can keep making irrelevant comparisons all you want, but my only original point was that despite the large difference in batting average, Jack Clark put more runs on the board per PA than did Tony Gwynn, and there really aren't numbers to dispute that. Yes Gwynn was a better human being and stayed healthier and lasted longer, but when he was in the lineup, Clark did a little more than Gwynn to put runs on the board.
Earlier in this discussion you used OPS+ as a park/era neutral stat to compare hitters. A list of non-HOFers I watched play with OPS+ higher than or equal to Tony Gwynn
Barry Bonds
Mark McGwire
Dick Allen
Miguel Cabrera
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Martinez
Jim Thome
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman
Mike Piazza
Alex Rodriguez
Frank Howard
Andrew McCutcheon
Kevin Mitchell
Chipper Jones
Larry Walker
Price Fielder
Vladimir Guerrero
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
David Ortiz
Carlos Delgado
Darryl Strawberry
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Pedro Guerrero
Reggie Smith
Ken Griffey, Jr
Gene Tenace
David Wright
Adrian Gonzalez
John Kruk
Evan Longoria
Fred McGriff
Boog Powell
Shin-Soo Choo
Todd Helton
Ryan Howard
Joe Mauer
Danny Tartabull
Jose Canseco
Rico Carty
Jim Edmonds
Juan Gonzalez
Josh Hamilton
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Singleton
Mo Vaughn
There are plenty more older guys, too. A lot of steroids suspects or not eligible yet guys on that list, but also a lot of guys who were not given much consideration at all for the hall of fame who were similarly productive to Tony Gwynn on a per rate basis. My point is not to denigrate Tony Gwynn, who was a great hitter, just to point out that his type of hitter, high average, not a lot of walks, not a lot of power, are generally overrated as offensive players.
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You can keep making irrelevant comparisons all you want, but my only original point was that despite the large difference in batting average, Jack Clark put more runs on the board per PA than did Tony Gwynn, and there really aren't numbers to dispute that. Yes Gwynn was a better human being and stayed healthier and lasted longer, but when he was in the lineup, Clark did a little more than Gwynn to put runs on the board.
Earlier in this discussion you used OPS+ as a park/era neutral stat to compare hitters. A list of non-HOFers I watched play with OPS+ higher than or equal to Tony Gwynn
Barry Bonds
Mark McGwire
Dick Allen
Miguel Cabrera
Manny Ramirez
Edgar Martinez
Jim Thome
Albert Belle
Lance Berkman
Mike Piazza
Alex Rodriguez
Frank Howard
Andrew McCutcheon
Kevin Mitchell
Chipper Jones
Larry Walker
Price Fielder
Vladimir Guerrero
Gary Sheffield
Jason Giambi
David Ortiz
Carlos Delgado
Darryl Strawberry
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Pedro Guerrero
Reggie Smith
Ken Griffey, Jr
Gene Tenace
David Wright
Adrian Gonzalez
John Kruk
Evan Longoria
Fred McGriff
Boog Powell
Shin-Soo Choo
Todd Helton
Ryan Howard
Joe Mauer
Danny Tartabull
Jose Canseco
Rico Carty
Jim Edmonds
Juan Gonzalez
Josh Hamilton
Rafael Palmeiro
Ken Singleton
Mo Vaughn
There are plenty more older guys, too. A lot of steroids suspects or not eligible yet guys on that list, but also a lot of guys who were not given much consideration at all for the hall of fame who were similarly productive to Tony Gwynn on a per rate basis. My point is not to denigrate Tony Gwynn, who was a great hitter, just to point out that his type of hitter, high average, not a lot of walks, not a lot of power, are generally overrated as offensive players.
Dead on, CT. Tony Gwynn was an artist. I loved watching him. And by all accounts a great guy, popular with fans and sportswriters alike. Add it all up and you have a great but very much overrated player.