MJ is No. 1.
Kobe has the strongest argument for No. 2.
But if Dwyane retires with 4-6 rings, can't there be a real argument for him as No. 2?
His stats are closer to Kobe than you might think.
I'd put Clyde Drexler and Kobe between him and MJ but he's definitely top 5.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on May 29, 2014, 10:03:07 PM
MJ is No. 1.
Kobe has the strongest argument for No. 2.
But if Dwyane retires with 4-6 rings, can't there be a real argument for him as No. 2?
His stats are closer to Kobe than you might think.
Dwayne is top 5 - but absolutely not in Kobe's class. Dwayne is as far behind Kobe as Kobe is behind MJ. And you obviously never saw the Big 'O' play.
Lot of guys ahead of him, but fantastic player and career.
D Wade is my favorite player ever.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on May 29, 2014, 10:44:35 PM
I'd put Clyde Drexler and Kobe between him and MJ but he's definitely top 5.
Drexler: No. Kobe belongs in the police lineup.
Quote from: brandx on May 29, 2014, 10:50:13 PM
Dwayne is top 5 - but absolutely not in Kobe's class. Dwayne is as far behind Kobe as Kobe is behind MJ. And you obviously never saw the Big 'O' play.
this
Quote from: brandx on May 29, 2014, 10:50:13 PM
Dwayne is top 5 - but absolutely not in Kobe's class. Dwayne is as far behind Kobe as Kobe is behind MJ. And you obviously never saw the Big 'O' play.
Big O was a 1 but you would take him every time over Wade. He was in a league of his own.
Even if he gets 4-6 you run into the problem that he wasn't the guy on those. He was the guy for the 1st one. But has won/will have won the rest with Lebron.
Kobe has 5, but he was only the best player on the team for 2 of those.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on May 29, 2014, 10:44:35 PM
I'd put Clyde Drexler and Kobe between him and MJ but he's definitely top 5.
Clyde Drexler? DWade is behind Kobe...but way better than Drexler.
Drexler never came close to doing what Wade did in the 05-06 playoffs. Wade has better career ppg, apg and FG%. In short, Wade's peak was way higher and his averages are better. Believe me, I pretty much saw both of these guys play their entire careers and there isn't a chance that I would take Clyde before Dwyane.
In fact the only reason I put Kobe ahead of Wade is the outside shooting...but even then you may have to put Jerry West in between Kobe and Wade.
MJ
Kobe
Wade/Drexler/West/Jones/Iverson
Without question, Jordan, West and Kobe over Wade, who in turn is a step or two above Drexler and others mentioned.
One thing I like to look at: Who took his team's biggest shots. That is any star's role, and especially when that star is a SG.
Obviously Jordan. Despite the presence of Goodrich, Baylor and Chamberlain, Jerry West took almost every big shot the Lakers had during his era. Same with Kobe; the Lakers had Shaq, but Kobe was the crunch-time assassin. So in addition to being simply great, those 3 were the greatest when it counted most.
Wade had that role for only one of his runs to the Finals, the year it was him and Shaq. He remains an excellent player now, but the ball is not in his hands at crunch time. He has become a role player -- a great, great role player, but a role player nonetheless. Ray Allen is more likely to take a game-changing shot than Wade is.
I'm a huge Wade fan and I actually root for the Heat because he is there. And there's no shame in being "only" the 4th greatest SG in history.
And BTW, if Magic was a PG (and he was), so was Oscar, obviously. The two greatest at that position ever.
Wade's efficiency is incredible, which causes him to be somewhat underrated in an all-time context. He has completely taken on a different role in the last few years, but become a more devastating performer along the way. 52% from the field last year, nearly 55% this year... as a SG? 49.2% for a career as a SG? That's rare & incredible.
FWIW, Kobe has never shot 47% from the field for a full season, he's a career 45% shooter.
DWade has shot better than 47% that nine times, Mrs. Bueller. The year Wade won the scoring title he still made 49% of his shots. The guy is nothing short of sublime.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1987/dwyane-wade (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/1987/dwyane-wade)
Easily a top 5 all-time shooting guard, and has been for some time. Imagine if he ever /tried/ to shoot a lot, or had a gunner's mentality. Add a title this year and let's elevate him over Kobe where he belongs.
Quote from: MU82 on May 30, 2014, 09:20:08 AM
And BTW, if Magic was a PG (and he was), so was Oscar, obviously. The two greatest at that position ever.
Hard to say on Oscar. Technically, probably a PG, but he was a big-time scorer - averaged over 30 ppg in his prime. Also a big time assist man and rebounder. Not a classic PG - much more of a combo guard.
We are skewed by whom we see play recently. The players of the past, no one saw so they are not considered as good. Our memories are short.
It is Dwyane, not Dwayne
He's a great player, hard to rate players from one generation to the other, or even within generations because of who surrounds them on their team, what other great players stand in their way for titles, etc.
You guys are forgetting Jerry West. Dwyane great, but no real argument to be not as good as Kobe, MJ, or West (or Oscar Robertson for that matter). Back when West and Robertson played, there weren't exactly point guard and shooting guards. There were just guards, and the guards traded roles throughout the game, so hard to classify them as PGs or SGs.
Quote from: CTWarrior on May 30, 2014, 10:53:58 AM
You guys are forgetting Jerry West. Dwyane great, but no real argument to be not as good as Kobe, MJ, or West (or Oscar Robertson for that matter). Back when West and Robertson played, there weren't exactly point guard and shooting guards. There were just guards, and the guards traded roles throughout the game, so hard to classify them as PGs or SGs.
That's correct to some extent and was my earlier point on Oscar. But there were some pure PGs back in the day - Cousy, Wilkens, Rodgers,etc.
Even today - it is hard to pinpoint guys like Curry or Westbrook who play the PG position but are really combo guards, as was a guy like Iverson. These are guys that look to score first. Even MJ could be considered a combo guard. He brought the ball upcourt a lot of the time and controlled the ball more that anyone else on the team.
Quote from: keefe on May 30, 2014, 08:08:39 AM
Big O was a 1 but you would take him every time over Wade. He was in a league of his own.
Absolutely on the Big O. Kobe was and is a punk. That rules him out. Tough to pick a top 5. So many greats. West, Big O, Sam Jones, Wade, Kobe (for the convict lovers), and about 10 others that we have forgotten.
DW over Kobe easily. Basketball is a team game and DW is a team player. Kobe is not. Kobe only won when when paired with another superstar, when alone, he's only destroyed teams. DW makes teams better.
Plus, it's kinda fun watching DW play old man basketball in the NBA. The way he's changed his game as his body has changed and his knees have worsened is amazing.
Quote from: WarriorFan on May 30, 2014, 11:29:10 AM
DW over Kobe easily. Basketball is a team game and DW is a team player. Kobe is not. Kobe only won when when paired with another superstar, when alone, he's only destroyed teams. DW makes teams better.
Who was Kobe paired with when they won titles in '09 and '10? Pau Gasol? Lamar Odom?
Kobe dropped 29-30 ppg in both of those playoff runs. He was fantastic.
Quote from: WarriorFan on May 30, 2014, 11:29:10 AM
DW over Kobe easily. Basketball is a team game and DW is a team player. Kobe is not. Kobe only won when when paired with another superstar, when alone, he's only destroyed teams. DW makes teams better.
Plus, it's kinda fun watching DW play old man basketball in the NBA. The way he's changed his game as his body has changed and his knees have worsened is amazing.
I'm no Kobe fan, in fact I can't stand him. That being said, I can guarantee you many Kobe lovers out here would make the same argument about Wade. He won his titles with LeBron and Shaq, just as Kobe won his titles with another star. When Wade didn't have the stars, the team tanked. So I don't think your argument holds.
Quote from: PTM on May 30, 2014, 09:09:25 AM
MJ
Kobe
Wade/Drexler/West/Jones/Iverson
Iverson? We're talking SG.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 30, 2014, 11:38:14 AM
I'm no Kobe fan, in fact I can't stand him. That being said, I can guarantee you many Kobe lovers out here would make the same argument about Wade. He won his titles with LeBron and Shaq, just as Kobe won his titles with another star. When Wade didn't have the stars, the team tanked. So I don't think your argument holds.
OK, let me put it differently. "stars" (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, LeBron, Bosh) WANT to play on the same team as Wade. With Kobe, they know that until the game allows more than one ball on the court, they'll never get their chance. 15-20 years from now, Kobe will be viewed similar to Allen Iverson. Big time scorers for a long time who never understood why those other 4 guys were on the court. Both were great players with incredible athleticism and were fun to watch, especially when they were "on". But watch Kobe on an off night and you learn how not to play basketball.
Plus, DW's version of old man basketball - with the scoops and runners and flips - is much more interesting than Kobe's ISO/jump shot routine. And the shooting percentage proves it's more successful.
Quote from: WarriorFan on May 30, 2014, 11:53:41 AM
OK, let me put it differently. "stars" (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, LeBron, Bosh) WANT to play on the same team as Wade. With Kobe, they know that until the game allows more than one ball on the court, they'll never get their chance. 15-20 years from now, Kobe will be viewed similar to Allen Iverson. Big time scorers for a long time who never understood why those other 4 guys were on the court. Both were great players with incredible athleticism and were fun to watch, especially when they were "on". But watch Kobe on an off night and you learn how not to play basketball.
Career FGAs per 36 minutes:
MJ: 21.5
KB: 19.3
DW: 17.4
So I'm not exactly sure what you are criticizing here. Yeah Kobe takes a lot of shots. Every superstar 2G does.
And Kobe is a much better defender than Wade.
Quote from: WarriorFan on May 30, 2014, 11:53:41 AM
15-20 years from now, Kobe will be viewed similar to Allen Iverson.
Zero chance of that ever happening. 5 championships vs none will see to that.
I may be the only MU student/fan who does not like Wade. Never liked him.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on May 30, 2014, 12:15:20 PM
I may be the only MU student/fan who does not like Wade. Never liked him.
That's very weird.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on May 30, 2014, 12:15:20 PM
I may be the only MU student/fan who does not like Wade. Never liked him.
Holy crap....what?
I still get misty eyed when I watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlymqXcruCU
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on May 30, 2014, 12:07:03 PM
Career FGAs per 36 minutes:
MJ: 21.5
KB: 19.3
DW: 17.4
So I'm not exactly sure what you are criticizing here. Yeah Kobe takes a lot of shots. Every superstar 2G does.
And Kobe is a much better defender than Wade.
I hate language like this. People say "much better" and "not even close to the same level." That BS and you know it. Slightly better? Sure, but these are the best of the best, you can't be "world's better" at that point. It's just hyperbole.
Quote from: Aughnanure on May 30, 2014, 12:24:30 PM
I hate language like this. People say "much better" and "not even close to the same level." That BS and you know it. Slightly better? Sure, but these are the best of the best, you can't be "world's better" at that point. It's just hyperbole.
Your criticism is noted and will likely be ignored.
Quote from: WarriorFan on May 30, 2014, 11:53:41 AM
OK, let me put it differently. "stars" (Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, LeBron, Bosh) WANT to play on the same team as Wade. With Kobe, they know that until the game allows more than one ball on the court, they'll never get their chance. 15-20 years from now, Kobe will be viewed similar to Allen Iverson. Big time scorers for a long time who never understood why those other 4 guys were on the court. Both were great players with incredible athleticism and were fun to watch, especially when they were "on". But watch Kobe on an off night and you learn how not to play basketball.
Plus, DW's version of old man basketball - with the scoops and runners and flips - is much more interesting than Kobe's ISO/jump shot routine. And the shooting percentage proves it's more successful.
I think 15-20 years from now they will say the guy is a winner, and made a lot of other players much better like Derek Fischer, Robert Horry, Pao Gasol (I find him to be unbelievably overrated, but Kobe made him better) ,etc.
Lots of different ways to skin the cat and win. He's going to go down with a minimum of 5 championships. He'll be remembered very well, as much as that pains me because he should be in jail.
Quote from: mujivitz06 on May 30, 2014, 12:18:30 PM
That's very weird.
Yea, I didn't even know he went to MU until long into his NBA career and I didn't pay any attention to MU hoops until I applied which was during the 2010-11 season. By that point I just didn't like the way he played in the NBA. i dunno, just never a fan.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on May 30, 2014, 12:15:20 PM
I may be the only MU student/fan who does not like Wade. Never liked him.
That's why you admitted to being a liberal here a few months ago....knew something was wrong with you. ;)
If you put Kobe ahead of Wade, its time to take off your blue and gold tinted glasses.
I think you'd have to put Jordan, Bryant and West as your top 3. After that it gets tricky and there are a lot of guys who would be in the mix along with Wade. In addition to those mentioned (Drexler, Iverson) you'd have to consider George Gervin, John Havlicek, Pete Maravich, Reggie Miller.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on May 30, 2014, 12:15:20 PM
I may be the only MU student/fan who does not like Wade.
Good chance you're correct about that.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 30, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
That's why you admitted to being a liberal here a few months ago....knew something was wrong with you. ;)
Yeah, he's a huge liberal, although not much of a fan of FDR, didn't realize he was a Democrat until recently and just not a fan of his style.
Quote from: chitownwarrior2011 on May 30, 2014, 12:15:20 PM
I may be the only MU student/fan who does not like Wade. Never liked him.
Love Wade, and I always will... but, as a Bulls fan... well, I can appreciate where you're coming from.
I will say that I much preferred D Wade 05/06 to the Heatles edition... their first championship was special to watch... he wasn't so entitled... didn't b*tch and moan, flop, or take plays off like he does today, but virtually all NBA superstars do the same.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on May 30, 2014, 12:28:46 PM
Your criticism is noted and will likely be ignored.
or "I know basketball better than you, so I can make grand exaggerations and proclamations on player's skills that you are unable to understand." Kobe was better, just not THAT much better.
Wade couldn't even dribble or tie his shoes when he arrived on campus.
Quote from: Aughnanure on May 30, 2014, 02:16:22 PM
or "I know basketball better than you, so I can make grand exaggerations and proclamations on player's skills that you are unable to understand."
I was specifically commenting on my supposed use of hyperbole. Sorry that you viewed my use of "much better" versus "better" as hyperbolic. I think it's accurate.
I think in the context of the NBA (which is what we are talking about here) that Kobe is a *MUCH BETTER* defensive player than Dwyane Wade. You think differently.
Quote from: PistolPete on May 30, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
I will say that I much preferred D Wade 05/06 to the Heatles edition... their first championship was special to watch... he wasn't so entitled... didn't b*tch and moan, flop, or take plays off like he does today, but virtually all NBA superstars do the same.
If he b*tched and moaned during the 2006 Finals. when it was a foul on the Mavs if they looked at him too closely, he would have to be the biggest jerk on the planet. He got the superstar treatment in that Finals above and beyond anything I've seen before or since. I was heartily rooting for the Heat in that series and I still couldn't believe the calls he got. I firmly believe the NBA wanted to make sure Cuban did not get that ring.
The only other thing I remember that comes close was a game when I was rooting for the Lakers against the Blazers in maybe 2001 where the Lakers made a wild comeback and seemed to get every call.
I remember those two games well because it is so rare as a fan for me to think that the team I was rooting for was getting every whistle.
Quote from: frozena pizza on May 30, 2014, 12:54:36 PM
I think you'd have to put Jordan, Bryant and West as your top 3. After that it gets tricky and there are a lot of guys who would be in the mix along with Wade. In addition to those mentioned (Drexler, Iverson) you'd have to consider George Gervin, John Havlicek, Pete Maravich, Reggie Miller.
Yes, you have some different types of players there. David Thompson, too.
A lot comes down to position placement.
I've always considered Gervin, Havlicek and Thompson to be small forwards. Maravich had the ball just about every second of every game he ever played, so even though the guy he set up most of the time was himself, he probably was a PG; he wasn't anywhere near as efficient offensively or defensively as Wade, anyway. Reggie, such a different kind of player, but a great one who certainly deserves top-10 status at the very least.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on May 30, 2014, 02:20:22 PM
I was specifically commenting on my supposed use of hyperbole. Sorry that you viewed my use of "much better" versus "better" as hyperbolic. I think it's accurate.
I think in the context of the NBA (which is what we are talking about here) that Kobe is a *MUCH BETTER* defensive player than Dwyane Wade. You think differently.
D Wade has averaged more blocks than any other guard, ever I believe (and he's 6'3!). He also has much better steals numbers per game. I like Kobe better as a face-up defender, but I think that a lot of that comes from his additional 3-4 inches on Wade and being put on the other team's best player usually. I think "much better" (especially in all caps) is a considerably off and way undervalues how good Wade has been at his size and position for so long.
D Wade is the third best SG of all-time and when it's all said and done he could be arguably the second best.
Heck of a player. By far the best player to ever don a Marquette uniform.
Also my favorite player of all-time. I'll go as far to say he's my favorite professional athlete of all-time.
With that being said, go HEAT!!!
Quote from: PistolPete on May 30, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
Love Wade, and I always will... but, as a Bulls fan... well, I can appreciate where you're coming from.
How dare you suggest that being a Bulls fan makes one more likely to dislike Wade! I did that once and sparked the wrath of the Chicago MU crowd.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=38870.0 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=38870.0)
Quote from: MUSF on May 30, 2014, 10:18:44 PM
How dare you suggest that being a Bulls fan makes one more likely to dislike Wade! I did that once and sparked the wrath of the Chicago MU crowd.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=38870.0 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=38870.0)
How did butt hurt Bulls fans not make the meme tournament? What an outrage.
Quote from: Bradley Brew on May 30, 2014, 04:16:31 PM
D Wade is the third best SG of all-time and when it's all said and done he could be arguably the second best.
Heck of a player. By far the best player to ever don a Marquette uniform.
Also my favorite player of all-time. I'll go as far to say he's my favorite professional athlete of all-time.
With that being said, go HEAT!!!
Clyde Drexler should be in the same conversation with Wade. Clyde's stats are really comparable to Wades and he wins his fair share of the stats battles. That's just one example of someone he has to be a clear cut choice over. I really don't know if Wade cracks the top 5 of all time shooting guards? Probably top ten.
Whoever chose DWade over Kobe...
Pass the hashish, my friend!
Kobe WAYYYY ahead of DWade. Consider Wade's ailing knees: doesn't bode well for the longevity of his career. However, he has been stellar in the seasons he has been in the L.
Top 5 is a great argument.
Top 10 is a lock.
Quote from: Wojo'sMojo on May 31, 2014, 12:33:10 AM
Clyde Drexler should be in the same conversation with Wade. Clyde's stats are really comparable to Wades and he wins his fair share of the stats battles. That's just one example of someone he has to be a clear cut choice over. I really don't know if Wade cracks the top 5 of all time shooting guards? Probably top ten.
As I explained earlier, Wade is better than Clyde hands down. Higher peak...better overall averages...Wade lead his team to a title. Clyde couldn't do that.
Both Wade and Kobe have won championships with Shaq. Who would you guys put as the top centers of all time?
Quote from: Stronghold on May 31, 2014, 07:47:55 AM
Both Wade and Kobe have won championships with Shaq. Who would you guys put as the top centers of all time?
I think the top 3 are automatic - just a matter of who you would put first.
After that, comes Duncan if you consider him a center, since he has played the '4' as well as the '5'.
Then it is a pick 'em between Shaq, Hakeem, and Moses for #5
Quote from: brandx on May 31, 2014, 10:13:06 AM
I think the top 3 are automatic - just a matter of who you would put first.
After that, comes Duncan if you consider him a center, since he has played the '4' as well as the '5'.
Then it is a pick 'em between Shaq, Hakeem, and Moses for #5
Duncan's a four. I put Shaq slightly ahead of Hakeem and both firmly ahead of Moses.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on May 31, 2014, 07:24:07 AM
As I explained earlier, Wade is better than Clyde hands down. Higher peak...better overall averages...Wade lead his team to a title. Clyde couldn't do that.
+1
I think Wade is better than Clyde by a fairly significant margin. That stated, I also think the idea that Wade is better than Kobe is ridiculous.
MJ
Kobe
Wade
West
I consider Oscar Robertson to be a 1 not a 2.
I wish I could remove Kobe becuase he should be behind bars, not on the court.
I put West below Wade because he was 1 for 9 in championships. Maybe not fair but Wade was able to finish the job and get those rings.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 31, 2014, 12:07:19 PM
MJ
Kobe
Wade
West
I consider Oscar Robertson to be a 1 not a 2.
I wish I could remove Kobe becuase he should be behind bars, not on the court.
I put West below Wade because he was 1 for 9 in championships. Maybe not fair but Wade was able to finish the job and get those rings.
Winning a title isn't just up to one guy. Let's also not forget that back then there was no salary cap, less distribution of talent like there is today. Thos Celtics teams won all those titles for a reason.
I'm just glad the Heat made the Finals four straight years. It has Lakers fans out here pissing themselves and I know Bulls fans aren't happy either. Perfect.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 31, 2014, 12:15:45 PM
Winning a title isn't just up to one guy. Let's also not forget that back then there was no salary cap, less distribution of talent like there is today. Thos Celtics teams won all those titles for a reason.
I'm just glad the Heat made the Finals four straight years. It has Lakers fans out here pissing themselves and I know Bulls fans aren't happy either. Perfect.
I agree completely, but the two are so close in my opinion that I had to find something to tip the scales one way or the other.
Of cource, I am a Wade slurper and was not alive to see Jerry West play, so I might be a tad bit biased
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 31, 2014, 02:29:52 PM
I agree completely, but the two are so close in my opinion that I had to find something to tip the scales one way or the other.
Of cource, I am a Wade slurper and was not alive to see Jerry West play, so I might be a tad bit biased
Hard to compare guys like Wade and West. Wade can create anytime, West was more of a pure '2' guard. His jump shot was his calling card.
Quote from: MUSF on May 31, 2014, 10:23:43 AM
Duncan's a four. I put Shaq slightly ahead of Hakeem and both firmly ahead of Moses.
In the last 10 years, Duncan has played much more center than PF, but I guess he can be clasified either way.
I would probably put Shaq & Hakeem ahead of Moses as well, but Malone did have more MVPs than Shaq & Hakeem combined. Not to mention he was the greatest offensive rebounder ever and it's not even close.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on May 31, 2014, 02:29:52 PM
I agree completely, but the two are so close in my opinion that I had to find something to tip the scales one way or the other.
Of cource, I am a Wade slurper and was not alive to see Jerry West play, so I might be a tad bit biased
West was awesome, great shooter and good hops. Wade is more athletic. Different eras.
Even though he was more a Point, the Big O was a top 5 of all time. Now there would be a debate. Jordan or Robertson.
Quote from: brandx on May 31, 2014, 03:04:33 PM
In the last 10 years, Duncan has played much more center than PF, but I guess he can be clasified either way.
I would probably put Shaq & Hakeem ahead of Moses as well, but Malone did have more MVPs than Shaq & Hakeem combined. Not to mention he was the greatest offensive rebounder ever and it's not even close.
I don't disagree with you on any of these points. However, your points on Malone and Duncan highlight the difficulties of comparing players from different eras.
Malone earned his MVPs in an era that favored big men and post play. Duncan plays in an era where most teams play GGFFF or GGGFF lineups. Technically Duncan plays the 5 for the Spurs, but they don't employ him like a true center. In fact, you can count the teams that use a true center on one hand.
Quote from: frozena pizza on May 30, 2014, 01:20:04 PM
Yeah, he's a huge liberal, although not much of a fan of FDR, didn't realize he was a Democrat until recently and just not a fan of his style.
That was a reverse beverage nasal passage moment. Thank you.