Strotman: Lack of accountability dooms MarquetteWell, it's finally here. The win-or-go-home games have finally begun for Marquette. For five previous seasons under Buzz Williams (with the exception, maybe, of 2011) these contests have occurred in the third week of March, not the second. But this is what 17-14 gets you. Winning half your conference games, including just two of your [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=painttouches.com&blog=28348875&post=11424&subd=painttouches&ref=&feed=1" width="1" height="1" />
Source: Strotman: Lack of accountability dooms Marquette (http://painttouches.com/2014/03/13/strotman-lack-of-accountability-dooms-marquette/)
Chemistry trumps all and with no leadership came no chemistry.
Could Ox have been a leader if he had started?
I agree with this. I have been quoting Buzz's complaint about lack of leadership going back to September. I freely admit that this reinforces my bias about this team. IMO, the biggest weakness of this team is that the most talented seniors have not consistently led. And it boils down to that last play in double OT on Senior day. Gardner went to the wrong spot and Jamil didn't want to take the shot. This year's version of senior leadership, of accountability, in 7 seconds.
This sentence says it all: No, the problem was that no one player took the onus for a 7-5 record. A 9-7 record. A 12-10 record. A 17-14 record.
We didn't have a Vander Blue ('12-13), Jae Crowder ('11-'12), Jimmy Butler ('10-'11), Lazar Hayward ('09-'10), etc. to take over and lead by example. It has usually been a senior, but Vander showed that it doesn't have to be.
Not gonna blame any one player...but I'm hoping maybe Todd or Deonte can become that player next season.
This team's struggles have nothing to do with "leadership," and everything to do with talent at the most critical position on the floor and the inability of our backcourt to consistently put the ball in the basket. Buzz made the decision all year that he was better off playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end, than risk putting the ball and potentially more turnovers in the hands of a freshman PG. He wasn't willing to sacrifice defense and ball security for more offense. His call...his choice.....it's on him. He'd have lost nothing more had he tried a different approach for just 3 or 4 games...and he just might have found something along the way. We'll never know.
I tend to agree with this analysis because, like Tower, it fits my bias. I am unwilling to ignore the history we have of developing leaders that turn our teams into more than the sum of their individual parts. It is for the same reason, however, that I have a growing sympathy for the (oft shared) opinion that if the guys that should be leading aren't, then its time to find someone who will. I think that our middling success actually worked against us here. There was still a chance for this season to end in a bid, until it was too late to change things up.
More reason to be frustrated by an incredibly frustrating season.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 10:24:38 AM
This team's struggles have nothing to do with "leadership," and everything to do with talent at the most critical position on the floor and the inability of our backcourt to consistently put the ball in the basket. Buzz made the decision all year that he was better off playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end, than risk putting the ball and potentially more turnovers in the hands of a freshman PG. He wasn't willing to sacrifice defense and ball security for more offense. His call...his choice.....it's on him. He'd have lost nothing more had he tried a different approach for just 3 or 4 games...and he just might have found something along the way. We'll never know.
So if something wasn't working in practice, Buzz should still have tried it in games, just so we could all see that it didn't work?
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 10:24:38 AM
This team's struggles have nothing to do with "leadership," and everything to do with talent at the most critical position on the floor and the inability of our backcourt to consistently put the ball in the basket. Buzz made the decision all year that he was better off playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end, than risk putting the ball and potentially more turnovers in the hands of a freshman PG. He wasn't willing to sacrifice defense and ball security for more offense. His call...his choice.....it's on him. He'd have lost nothing more had he tried a different approach for just 3 or 4 games...and he just might have found something along the way. We'll never know.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! You're spot on with this
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 10:24:38 AM
This team's struggles have nothing to do with "leadership,"
Well, except for the fact that we had as many close games this season as we did in years past...and the winning plays made by guys like Vander, Jae, Jimmy etc were rarely the work of the PG. Instead, the PG usually just handed those guys the ball at the end and got out of the way. When our PG tried to do that this season, the guys he handed the ball to didn't produce.
You can rail on this year's PG all you want, but the fact is that Junior didn't make some stellar pass to Vander at the end of the SJU or Davidson games last season. Vander took the ball from the perimeter to the hole himself. If we'd had a guy who could consistently do that at the end of games this year, our record would be very different...with the same PG.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 13, 2014, 10:33:22 AM
So if something wasn't working in practice, Buzz should still have tried it in games, just so we could all see that it didn't work?
What is your view on what takes place in a typical practice? You are aware that there is very little up and down, 5-5, scrimmaging that takes place in practices, correct?
Practice is nothing like games...you are doing a lot of half court scouting report work, situational work, time/score scenario work, inbounds plays, press break, different defensive drills/installations/shell work.
I would venture a guess that 5 on 5 up and down scrimmaging constitutes less than 10% of all practice time for D-1 Basketball programs.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 10:54:29 AM
Well, except for the fact that we had as many close games this season as we did in years past...and the winning plays made by guys like Vander, Jae, Jimmy etc were rarely the work of the PG. Instead, the PG usually just handed those guys the ball at the end and got out of the way. When our PG tried to do that this season, the guys he handed the ball to didn't produce.
This year, instead of producing, or even attempting to, they passed the ball back to the worst shooter on the team.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 10:54:29 AM
Well, except for the fact that we had as many close games this season as we did in years past...and the winning plays made by guys like Vander, Jae, Jimmy etc were rarely the work of the PG. Instead, the PG usually just handed those guys the ball at the end and got out of the way. When our PG tried to do that this season, the guys he handed the ball to didn't produce.
You can rail on this year's PG all you want, but the fact is that Junior didn't make some stellar pass to Vander at the end of the SJU or Davidson games last season. Vander took the ball from the perimeter to the hole himself. If we'd had a guy who could consistently do that at the end of games this year, our record would be very different...with the same PG.
Give me a break...what did Todd Mayo do against Villanova, Providence and St. John's?? The level you go to, to try to excuse, the excuse we had at PG this year is ridiculous. He made 1, 3 point shot all year. 44% from FT line. No made FGs outside of 3 feet in 2014. Do you realize how little he needs to be defended...and what the domino effect of that is on every other guy on floor? Particularly Davante and Jamil? Packed paint/duoble teams all day for Gardner...
But yep...Derrick is the victim of Todd Mayo not being Vander Blue, Jimmy or Jae...perhaps he's the victim of Buzz choosing to only give Todd 23 minutes a game this year when it is crystal clear to anyone that he's the most talented guard on the team...
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 10:56:09 AM
This year, instead of producing, or even attempting to, they passed the ball back to the worst shooter on the team.
This is ridiculous...Jamil made the right basketball play...Derrick dribbles his man per usual right into Jamil for a double team...Jamil gets handed the ball 22' from the basket on a tight double team with 3 seconds left...instead of forcing an extremely low percentage shot....he passes to a teammate for a WIDE open 10 foot uncontested shot...even with Derrick shooting it...that has a much better chance of going in than Jamil forcing a wild 3 point shot....yet....hey...let's not blame Derrick for missing an easy shot...its Jamil's fault for not being a senior leader...he showed great leadership being unselfish and being willing to pass the ball to a struggling teammate for a higher percentage shot...that my friend...is actually leadership.
Excellently written article Strotty. Couldn't have said it better myself. What concerns me is that I don't see who steps up next season. Assuming it is a senior (doesn't have to be but usually is), Derrick has the leadership, but not the on the court play. Todd has the on the court play, but not the leadership. Juan has the hustle and work ethic, but nothing else.
If we could morph the three of them into one player, we would have the perfect senior leader (and 2 scholarhips open, lol).
Maybe one of the underclassmen could step up. Deonte? STJ? Maybe even Hill, he seems to have a certain swagger to him.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 11:00:22 AM
Give me a break...what did Todd Mayo do against Villanova, Providence and St. John's?? The level you go to, to try to excuse, the excuse we had at PG this year is ridiculous. He made 1, 3 point shot all year. 44% from FT line. No made FGs outside of 3 feet in 2014. Do you realize how little he needs to be defended...and what the domino effect of that is on every other guy on floor? Particularly Davante and Jamil? Packed paint/duoble teams all day for Gardner...
But yep...Derrick is the victim of Todd Mayo not being Vander Blue, Jimmy or Jae...perhaps he's the victim of Buzz choosing to only give Todd 23 minutes a game this year when it is crystal clear to anyone that he's the most talented guard on the team...
And the fact that you continue to focus only on shooting, while ignoring defense, rebounds, assists, steals, low turnovers, etc is even more ridiculous. Derrick is among the league's best PGs in several statistical categories, and he is awful at shooting...yet you continue to focus on that one aspect of his game, instead of recogniznig the value of the others.
More JUCO please.
Strotty actually pulled punches in the article. He didn't use Buzz quotes about Davante's work habits, or that Jake was a walk on who shouldn't be getting as many minutes as we was. (Implication being that nobody was doing what it took to take minutes away from him). When you add those things together with the quotes Strotty did use, and I think reasonable picture can be painted about what Buzz will say about this year's team after it is all said and done. The talented seniors didn't lead, and the young guys did not seize opportunities.
Another PG thread, oh joy.
I think the difference that you have failed to see all year is the expectations. Has PG play been a problem? HELL YEAH it's been a problem. Has leadership also been a problem? HELL YEAH it's been a problem.
The difference is, we expected Derrick Wilson to put up the numbers he has. You can check my post history. I think I projected about 5 ppg, 4 rpg, and 4.5 apg on terrible shooting with excellent defense from Derrick. Despite that, I still expected us to be a top 25 team (I think I had us as 18th, 2nd best in BEast). So Derrick has lived up to my expectations for him...though I'll admit I didn't expect the defense sagging off him to be such an issue.
I did however expect a senior leader to step up. I expected Jamil to have a Jae Crowder like senior season. He didn't. I also expected JJJ to make an immediate contribution. Instead he couldn't even crack the rotation.
This is why we aren't as outraged as you are. We knew going in what Derrick Wilson was. We thought the rest of our team was good enough to overcome it.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 13, 2014, 10:16:32 AM
Could Ox have been a leader if he had started?
No. Nothing against him, but I just don't think that is his personality. When he came to MU he couldn't even look other people in the eye.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 11:13:50 AM
And the fact that you continue to focus only on shooting, while ignoring defense, rebounds, assists, steals, low turnovers, etc is even more ridiculous. Derrick is among the league's best PGs in several statistical categories, and he is awful at shooting...yet you continue to focus on that one aspect of his game, instead of recogniznig the value of the others.
The negative value his complete inability to shoot outside of 3 feet is far more detrimental to this team than his assists and turnovers/assist to turnover ratio. But here's some data to pound your head into:
Player Team Min. PPG FG% 3P% FT% APG REB STL TO
Starks GT 36.8 17.1 42 33 86 4.1 2.1 0.9 2.4
S. Gibbs SH 30.4 13.7 42 37 74 4.2 3 1.1 2.2
Cotton PC 40.1 21.7 42 38 85 5.9 3.6 1 2.4
Arcidiacono NOVA 30.8 10 40 35 70 3.5 2.4 1 1.4
Wilson MARQ 30.9 5.1 39 7 44 4.2 3.8 1.3 1.5
Chatman CRE 29.4 7.6 40 40 77 4.3 3.5 0.6 1.7
Davis XAVI 30.5 7.7 39 38 84 4.9 1.8 1.1 2
Young DEP 34.8 16.2 44 26 68 3.6 4.1 1.8 3.1
Barlow BUT 32.6 6.7 39 40 77 3.5 3.8 2 1.1
Jordan STJ 26 9.4 41 26 67 3.1 3.1 1.3 2.2
Average 32.4 12.2 41 35 76 4.1 3 1.2 2.1
Derrick Rank 5th 10th T-8th 10th 10th T-4th T-2nd T-3rd T-3rd
Derrick Deviation.-1.5 -7.1 -2 -28 -32 0.1 0.8 0.1 0.6
**Sorry, I don't get really excited over Derrick averaging 0.1 more assists/steals per game than the AVERAGE PG in Big East, or turning the ball over 0.6 less than the average PG in the Big East - not while he is so blatantly deficient in FT percentage, 3 pt percentage, ability to hit shot outside of 3', and averages 7.1 ppg less than just the average PG in Big East.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 11:27:27 AM
The negative value his complete inability to shoot outside of 3 feet is far more detrimental to this team than his assists and turnovers/assist to turnover ratio. But here's some data to pound your head into:
Player Team Min. PPG FG% 3P% FT% APG REB STL TO
Starks GT 36.8 17.1 42 33 86 4.1 2.1 0.9 2.4
S. Gibbs SH 30.4 13.7 42 37 74 4.2 3 1.1 2.2
Cotton PC 40.1 21.7 42 38 85 5.9 3.6 1 2.4
Arcidiacono NOVA 30.8 10 40 35 70 3.5 2.4 1 1.4
Wilson MARQ 30.9 5.1 39 7 44 4.2 3.8 1.3 1.5
Chatman CRE 29.4 7.6 40 40 77 4.3 3.5 0.6 1.7
Davis XAVI 30.5 7.7 39 38 84 4.9 1.8 1.1 2
Young DEP 34.8 16.2 44 26 68 3.6 4.1 1.8 3.1
Barlow BUT 32.6 6.7 39 40 77 3.5 3.8 2 1.1
Jordan STJ 26 9.4 41 26 67 3.1 3.1 1.3 2.2
Average 32.4 12.2 41 35 76 4.1 3 1.2 2.1
Derrick Rank 5th 10th T-8th 10th 10th T-4th T-2nd T-3rd T-3rd
Derrick Deviation.-1.5 7.1 -2 -28 -32 0.1 0.8 0.1 0.6
**Sorry, I don't get really excited over Derrick averaging 0.1 more assists/steals per game than the AVERAGE PG in Big East, or turning the ball over 0.6 less than the average PG in the Big East - not while he is so blatantly deficient in FT percentage, 3 pt percentage, ability to hit shot outside of 3', and averages 7.1 ppg less than just the average PG in Big East.
And this should be all she wrote for this discussion.
While I don't like stat sheet stats as the best indicator of player value, this comparison of BE PG play should make anyone who claims D Wilson is 'average at best' feel embarassed.
However, using your numbers, he was 'best available'.
Don't we pay Buzz the big bucks to be the leader of this team? All this talk about lack of leadership...if Buzz realizes he doesn't have any leaders on this team, he should take it upon himself to force the issue on himself even more. I have seen Jamil trying to be the leader this year at times...I have seen Derrick trying to lead this team at times, however when you are an offensive liability I don't think you can have to much credibility with your teammates.
Quote from: mubuzz on March 13, 2014, 11:41:27 AM
Don't we pay Buzz the big bucks to be the leader of this team? All this talk about lack of leadership...if Buzz realizes he doesn't have any leaders on this team, he should take it upon himself to force the issue on himself even more. I have seen Jamil trying to be the leader this year at times...I have seen Derrick trying to lead this team at times, however when you are an offensive liability I don't think you can have to much credibility with your teammates.
He did take blame. I'm not sure if it was a radio show or an interview, but he said, and I paraphrase, that he had made assumptions and had taken shortcuts based on those assumptions and the tough OOC schedule, relating to the culture of the team.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 10:54:29 AM
Well, except for the fact that we had as many close games this season as we did in years past...and the winning plays made by guys like Vander, Jae, Jimmy etc were rarely the work of the PG. Instead, the PG usually just handed those guys the ball at the end and got out of the way. When our PG tried to do that this season, the guys he handed the ball to didn't produce.
You can rail on this year's PG all you want, but the fact is that Junior didn't make some stellar pass to Vander at the end of the SJU or Davidson games last season. Vander took the ball from the perimeter to the hole himself. If we'd had a guy who could consistently do that at the end of games this year, our record would be very different...with the same PG.
Just an honest question: Shouldn't your Stud PG who is now a Jr., having played lots of minutes be one of your leaders? Methinks so.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 11:40:11 AM
However, using your numbers, he was 'best available'.
I agree.
You and I don't agree when it comes to nobody stepping up. Davante, Mayo and to a certain extent Jamil all did their best to step up. It's not like they're Shaq, Kobe and LeBron talent wise. It's hard to overcome ineptness at a critical position even as a senior leader.
Quote from: mubuzz on March 13, 2014, 11:41:27 AM
Don't we pay Buzz the big bucks to be the leader of this team? All this talk about lack of leadership...if Buzz realizes he doesn't have any leaders on this team, he should take it upon himself to force the issue on himself even more.
I don't know if that's completely fair. He could have tried that, but if the team doesn't listen...
What does bother me is his bitching about the conference scheduling, and quick turnarounds. Every team in the league had to deal with it. It's hard to teach accountability to the players after trying to deflect blame on to the schedule.
Eric Snow at MSU. Career .459% FT shooter. Career .263% 3 pt shooter. 5.3 career assists. (7.8 senior year) The only spot where he was significantly better than Wilson was 2 pt FG %, and that is because, if memory serves, he was very good at finishing at the rim on the break. His teams did OK with him doing nothing but playing defense, passing the ball to the good players, and making lay ups on fast breaks. So, having a PG who is not a shooting threat is not a problem if other players on the team want the ball in big moments. Look, Derrick not being able to shoot is A problem. IMO, it is not THE problem.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 13, 2014, 11:45:56 AM
Just an honest question: Shouldn't your Stud PG who is now a Jr., having played lots of minutes be one of your leaders? Methinks so.
I never called him a "stud PG." You did. Just saying he wasn't the main reason for our struggles this season.
As to your question...he was probably the closest guy we had to a team leader. Considering that he played along 4 seniors, that says quite a bit.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Eric Snow at MSU. Career .459% FT shooter. Career .263% 3 pt shooter. 6.1 career assists. The only spot where he was significantly better than Wilson was 2 pt FG %, and that is because, if memory serves, he was very good at finishing at the rim on the break. His teams did OK with him doing nothing but playing defense, passing the ball to the good players, and making lay ups on fast breaks. So, having a PG who is not a shooting threat is not a problem if other players on the team want the ball in big moments. Look, Derrick not being able to shoot is A problem. IMO, it is not THE problem.
Tower, that's a HUGE difference. Please don't discount that.
You also mentioned making lay ups on fast breaks. I'm glad you brought that up because to me that is the biggest issue I've seen on this team and for once I'll agree that Wilson isn't the only problem but still a large contributor. How many fast break points does this year's team even have? That's not a rhetorical question. For all this talk about position defense we sure don't capitalize on opponents' turnovers at all.
Let's be honest, the last several teams were not the best shooting squads outside of the year with Acker and Cubillan. DJO and Crowder could stroke it but they were streaky. Butler developed an outside shot as a senior but he wasn't a great shooter in college. Blue wasn't a good shooter.
When your starting back court can't finish at the rim and is absent of any fast break points it's a big problem.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Eric Snow at MSU. Career .459% FT shooter. Career .263% 3 pt shooter. 5.3 career assists. (7.8 senior year) The only spot where he was significantly better than Wilson was 2 pt FG %, and that is because, if memory serves, he was very good at finishing at the rim on the break. His teams did OK with him doing nothing but playing defense, passing the ball to the good players, and making lay ups on fast breaks. So, having a PG who is not a shooting threat is not a problem if other players on the team want the ball in big moments. Look, Derrick not being able to shoot is A problem. IMO, it is not THE problem.
Yep.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 13, 2014, 12:02:09 PM
Tower, that's a HUGE difference. Please don't discount that.
You also mentioned making lay ups on fast breaks. I'm glad you brought that up because to me that is the biggest issue I've seen on this team and for once I'll agree that Wilson isn't the only problem but still a large contributor. How many fast break points does this year's team even have? That's not a rhetorical question. For all this talk about position defense we sure don't capitalize on opponents' turnovers at all.
Let's be honest, the last several teams were not the best shooting squads outside of the year with Acker and Cubillan. DJO and Crowder could stroke it but they were streaky. Butler developed an outside shot as a senior but he wasn't a great shooter in college. Blue wasn't a good shooter.
When your starting back court can't finish at the rim and is absent of any fast break points it's a big problem.
I think this is a problem that has not been given nearly as much attention as it deserves. I don't think that this can be placed on one player, as it is so dependent not only on offensive talent, but also the ability to generate turnovers. Whatever the cause/problem, the inability or unwillingness to push the ball up the court was a marked contrast to prior MU teams. While I hate to feed the beast, I do believe that at least part of this problem goes to our point guard.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Eric Snow at MSU. Career .459% FT shooter. Career .263% 3 pt shooter. 5.3 career assists. (7.8 senior year) The only spot where he was significantly better than Wilson was 2 pt FG %, and that is because, if memory serves, he was very good at finishing at the rim on the break. His teams did OK with him doing nothing but playing defense, passing the ball to the good players, and making lay ups on fast breaks. So, having a PG who is not a shooting threat is not a problem if other players on the team want the ball in big moments. Look, Derrick not being able to shoot is A problem. IMO, it is not THE problem.
When you can't shoot, finishing at the rim is very important. Derrick is not good at finishing at the rim. Also Snow shooting .263 from 3 is much better than Derricks .083. Teams at least had to respect his shot. Eric Snow played in the NBA for 13 years and was known as a great leader and hard nosed defender. There is no comparison between the 2 in my opinion.
Snow made zero 3 pt shots his freshman and sophomore years. His senior year, he made 7. His acme was 13 made his junior year. That's right. NBA for many years, 20 total made 3's in college. He made himself a better shooter later. FT % is very close though. Finishing at the rim is the significant difference.
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 10:24:38 AM
This team's struggles have nothing to do with "leadership," and everything to do with talent at the most critical position on the floor and the inability of our backcourt to consistently put the ball in the basket. Buzz made the decision all year that he was better off playing 4 on 5 on the offensive end, than risk putting the ball and potentially more turnovers in the hands of a freshman PG. He wasn't willing to sacrifice defense and ball security for more offense. His call...his choice.....it's on him. He'd have lost nothing more had he tried a different approach for just 3 or 4 games...and he just might have found something along the way. We'll never know.
+ 1000
My sentiments exactly. And in the Providence game, we played 6 on 4.
Honest question. For those who think this team's struggles have nothing to do with a lack of leadership - who would you call our team leader this season? You know, the guy we could depend on to take over in crunch time like Vander, Jae, Jimmy or Lazar?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 12:28:12 PM
Honest question. For those who think this team's struggles have nothing to do with a lack of leadership - who would you call our team leader this season? You know, the guy we could depend on to take over in crunch time like Vander, Jae, Jimmy or Lazar?
Did Todd Mayo just not do that against Nova, Providence, and St. John's?? I'd say he did it in every bit good of fashion as Vander, Jimmy, or Jae did...and all those guys played with a PG that was somewhat of a threat to make a 3, or 2 pt shot from outside 3 feet...
It is beyond reason, how you can say PG play isn't THEE reason for our team's struggles this year. Mayo has put up numbers and efficiency on par/better than Vander last year..virtually made losing Vander a wash...which essentially says you want to say the difference between our Big East Championship and Elite 8 team last year, and this 17-14, 9-9 in watered down Big East team is the result of missing Trent Lockett?
Quote from: Ners on March 13, 2014, 12:36:30 PM
Did Todd Mayo just not do that against Nova, Providence, and St. John's?? I'd say he did it in every bit good of fashion as Vander, Jimmy, or Jae did...and all those guys played with a PG that was somewhat of a threat to make a 3, or 2 pt shot from outside 3 feet...
It is beyond reason, how you can say PG play isn't THEE reason for our team's struggles this year. Mayo has put up numbers and efficiency on par/better than Vander last year..virtually made losing Vander a wash...which essentially says you want to say the difference between our Big East Championship and Elite 8 team last year, and this 17-14, 9-9 in watered down Big East team is the result of missing Trent Lockett?
I don't disagree that Todd might be the best leader we have this season. But then the problem is with Buzz for playing our leader 23 mpg, while he played Vander 33 mpg, Jae 33 mpg, Jimmy 35 mpg, and Lazar 32 mpg. I doubt Derrick was the guy who told Buzz not to play him more.....
Strotty, is correct. It is a lack of leadership.
However, he needed to take it one step deeper. "If you don't have guards, you don't have sh*t" said the late great Abe Lemmon.
Don't have them ... 17-14, nothing more needs to be said, nor blame allocated.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 12:42:56 PM
I don't disagree that Todd might be the best leader we have this season. But then the problem is with Buzz for playing our leader 23 mpg, while he played Vander 33 mpg, Jae 33 mpg, Jimmy 35 mpg, and Lazar 32 mpg. I doubt Derrick was the guy who told Buzz not to play him more.....
Totally agree...this hasn't been Buzz's finest coaching job in any way, shape or form this year...and at the end of the day...that's where the accountability rests/lies. Gardner not getting 32 minutes per game is another area of missed opportunity.
Makes no sense to further handcuff Derrick with a starting lineup featuring Jake, Juan, Otule - none of whom can create their own shot for the most part...
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 11:40:11 AM
However, using your numbers, he was 'best available'.
Actually, Fr Davitt would disagree with your logic. Now, if you had said, "
In my opinion, he was 'best available'" then Fr Davitt would have refrained from finding fault.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on March 13, 2014, 12:01:44 PM
I never called him a "stud PG." You did. Just saying he wasn't the main reason for our struggles this season.
As to your question...he was probably the closest guy we had to a team leader. Considering that he played along 4 seniors, that says quite a bit.
No I did not you called him a stud. But Da Coach sure as hell has. Except when it comes to lack of leadership--which then becomes an alleged problem of the seniors.
The Leadership problem is the coach's responsibility. It failed this year. On Buzz!
So, 4 seconds left, double overtime, down one, and any one of the following receive the ball exactly where Jamil did...... Lazar, Jimmy, DJO, Jae, Vander....what happens next? Whether or not they make the shot, how many of them choose to NOT shoot?
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 01:33:58 PM
So, 4 seconds left, double overtime, down one, and any one of the following receive the ball exactly where Jamil did...... Lazar, Jimmy, DJO, Jae, Vander....what happens next? Whether or not they make the shot, how many of them choose to NOT shoot?
Well hopefully none of them take that shot. It's a contested 3 with two defenders right on him almost like a trap.
After the initial play broke down, it would have been better for Derrick to drive to the basket with 8-9 seconds left to take a shot headed towards the basket still leaving time for an offensive put back.
We were down one. A contested three should have never been the shot taken as a two point basket seals the victory.
Pretty sure they would have tried a move. They all missed shots to win games at various times.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 13, 2014, 10:33:22 AM
So if something wasn't working in practice, Buzz should still have tried it in games, just so we could all see that it didn't work?
Brett Favre says "yes, that may actually lead to something."
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 10:56:09 AM
This year, instead of producing, or even attempting to, they passed the ball back to the worst shooter on the team.
The best shooter on the team missed shots at the end of both overtimes against Providence. Of course Mayo had fouled out against St. John's. Had he been in the game he probably would of taken last shot, but based on Providence we still would of lost.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on March 13, 2014, 01:42:12 PM
Brett Favre says "yes, that may actually lead to something."
As would Tom Brady..
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 01:40:22 PM
Pretty sure they would have tried a move. They all missed shots to win games at various times.
Watch the play again. What move? The only option was a fadeaway three which would be acceptable were we needing a 3 at the buzzer to tie.
We simply needed a basket. While I'm sure Wilson didn't start the chain of events, he should have recognized the situation and got to the lane and the rim. Even if we miss a shot with 8 seconds on the clock we can foul and the worst we're down is 3 with the ball for the final shot.
Jamil was smart for not forcing that. The odds that a terrible shooter makes an open 10-12 foot jump shot is way higher than him hitting a fall away 3.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 13, 2014, 01:44:53 PM
Watch the play again. What move? The only option was a fadeaway three which would be acceptable were we needing a 3 at the buzzer to tie.
We simply needed a basket. While I'm sure Wilson didn't start the chain of events, he should have recognized the situation and got to the lane and the rim. Even if we miss a shot with 8 seconds on the clock we can foul and the worst we're down is 3 with the ball for the final shot.
Jamil was smart for not forcing that. The odds that a terrible shooter makes an open 10-12 foot jump shot is way higher than him hitting a fall away 3.
It's pointless Matty...so long as debating with Tower....nothing will ever rest at the feet of Derrick...not the fact he dribbled his defender right into Jamil for an easy double, or that he missed a wide open 10 foot shot, or that he shoots 44% from FT line...he's now being held up as Eric Snow...which I will say Eric Snow was similarly robotic as Derrick is on a basketball floor.
I think there was around 24 seconds left following the timeout. I can't imagine Buzz not saying something to the effect that if they cannot get the ball to the designed play to get a shot going towards the basket with enough time left to make it at least an additional possession by fouling on a miss.
That's as basic as it gets regarding late game situations when you're trailing by one with time on the clock.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 13, 2014, 01:44:53 PM
Watch the play again. What move? The only option was a fadeaway three which would be acceptable were we needing a 3 at the buzzer to tie.
We simply needed a basket. While I'm sure Wilson didn't start the chain of events, he should have recognized the situation and got to the lane and the rim. Even if we miss a shot with 8 seconds on the clock we can foul and the worst we're down is 3 with the ball for the final shot.
Jamil was smart for not forcing that. The odds that a terrible shooter makes an open 10-12 foot jump shot is way higher than him hitting a fall away 3.
Matty, my point that any shot from Jamil is better than any shot from Derrick that isn't a wide open layup. And as a senior leader, Jamil has to want to be the man. Or accountable, getting back to the title of the thread.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 13, 2014, 12:02:09 PM
Tower, that's a HUGE difference. Please don't discount that.
You also mentioned making lay ups on fast breaks. I'm glad you brought that up because to me that is the biggest issue I've seen on this team and for once I'll agree that Wilson isn't the only problem but still a large contributor. How many fast break points does this year's team even have? That's not a rhetorical question. For all this talk about position defense we sure don't capitalize on opponents' turnovers at all.
Let's be honest, the last several teams were not the best shooting squads outside of the year with Acker and Cubillan. DJO and Crowder could stroke it but they were streaky. Butler developed an outside shot as a senior but he wasn't a great shooter in college. Blue wasn't a good shooter.
When your starting back court can't finish at the rim and is absent of any fast break points it's a big problem.
I agree with this. Runout points off of turnovers are missing this year. DJO and Vander were exceptional at these. Todd is pretty good. Derrick and Jake are not. The other thing that has troubled me related to this is that Jake will run to the 3 pt line catch the ball in transition with no one around him and not shoot. Grrrr.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 10:17:10 AM
I agree with this. I have been quoting Buzz's complaint about lack of leadership going back to September. I freely admit that this reinforces my bias about this team. IMO, the biggest weakness of this team is that the most talented seniors have not consistently led. And it boils down to that last play in double OT on Senior day. Gardner went to the wrong spot and Jamil didn't want to take the shot. This year's version of senior leadership, of accountability, in 7 seconds.
I have been saying this as well for a while. Got a lot of flak for it.
I also said next year's team will be better just because we will have strong leaders. Derrick and Juan both obviously have limitations as players, but have bought in fully to the system and should be good leaders next year. This year, none of the seniors stepped up as a leader and as a junior, Derrick didn't seem to want to step on toes. that will change next year - even though his minutes will definitely go down.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 01:49:56 PM
Matty, my point that any shot from Jamil is better than any shot from Derrick that isn't a wide open layup. And as a senior leader, Jamil has to want to be the man. Or accountable, getting back to the title of the thread.
So next year when Derrick is a senior, will he be looked at as not being accountable or a senior leader, should he pass out of a fadeaway, double teamed 22 foot, 3 point shot - to a wide open teammate for a 10 game winner?
Also interesting that you don't find Derrick to be a liability on the floor, and that he's a viable 30 minute per game PG at this level, when you concede he has no business taking any shot other than a wide open layup...which we also saw him blow against Providence. ::)
Quote from: willie warrior on March 13, 2014, 11:45:56 AM
Just an honest question: Shouldn't your Stud PG who is now a Jr., having played lots of minutes be one of your leaders? Methinks so.
Need to back up your talk enough to inspire followers. Otherwise Todd and Davante will just continue to flash looks as if to say "make half of your free throws, then talk to me".
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 01:49:56 PM
Matty, my point that any shot from Jamil is better than any shot from Derrick that isn't a wide open layup. And as a senior leader, Jamil has to want to be the man. Or accountable, getting back to the title of the thread.
Ok, you and I disagree there. I don't want Jamil taking bad shots. I don't want him necessarily taking good shots depending on how he's playing.
My point has nothing to do with the final 3 seconds. As soon as the designed play failed Derrick Wilson as the point guard (and de facto leader due to his position) needed to realize that the team needed to attack the basket for a bucket with time left around 10 seconds. He instead spend almost 20 seconds of that last possession dribbling away a real chance at victory.
Shots get missed. That doesn't make me angry or upset. It's part of the game.
What I'm trying to say is we shouldn't even be debating over what was the worse shot. It was terrible basketball IQ by the five on the floor in that situation and also by Buzz IF he didn't talk specifically about what to do if the play breaks down.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 11:54:52 AM
Eric Snow at MSU. Career .459% FT shooter. Career .263% 3 pt shooter. 5.3 career assists. (7.8 senior year) The only spot where he was significantly better than Wilson was 2 pt FG %, and that is because, if memory serves, he was very good at finishing at the rim on the break. His teams did OK with him doing nothing but playing defense, passing the ball to the good players, and making lay ups on fast breaks. So, having a PG who is not a shooting threat is not a problem if other players on the team want the ball in big moments. Look, Derrick not being able to shoot is A problem. IMO, it is not THE problem.
Derrick's is not even close to Eric Snow. Eric Snow was good enough to play 13 years in the NBA.
Snow shot 57% on 2 point shot as opposed to 39%. And defensively, there is no comparison as well. Snow actually was a lockdown defender.
Quote from: brandx on March 13, 2014, 02:10:23 PM
Derrick's is not even close to Eric Snow. Eric Snow was good enough to play 13 years in the NBA.
Snow shot 57% on 2 point shot as opposed to 39%. And defensively, there is no comparison as well. Snow actually was a lockdown defender.
Derrick is not close to Snow, I agree. Just some math clean up, though - Derrick is a 39% shooter on total field goals attempted, 42.5% on 2s.
From the story, is it fair to surmise that at some point Buzz lost this team?
I think MU's guard play had more to do with it than accountability and leadership.
Quote from: ATWizJr on March 13, 2014, 02:55:29 PM
From the story, is it fair to surmise that at some point Buzz lost this team?
I don't know about "lost." It actually appeared more that he never really "had" them, and was searching for something that wasn't there (or wasn't found).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 13, 2014, 02:41:28 PM
Derrick is not close to Snow, I agree. Just some math clean up, though - Derrick is a 39% shooter on total field goals attempted, 42.5% on 2s.
I was using career numbers for snow and Derrick - not just this year.
39.3% on 2s
36.1% on total field goals attempted shots
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 13, 2014, 10:16:32 AM
Could Ox have been a leader if he had started?
He would not have won 6th man of the year in the Big East then.
Quote from: Stone Cold on March 13, 2014, 11:18:12 AM
More JUCO please.
Why? Having 4 or 5 top 100 players isn't enough? How about, more development of high school players on this team please....something we have struggled with MIGHTILY in the last five years.
Quote from: chapman on March 13, 2014, 02:02:20 PM
Need to back up your talk enough to inspire followers. Otherwise Todd and Davante will just continue to flash looks as if to say "make half of your free throws, then talk to me".
Yeah--or up your scoring to 9-10 PPG, and then talk to me.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 03:12:11 PM
Why? Having 4 or 5 top 100 players isn't enough? How about, more development of high school players on this team please....something we have struggled with MIGHTILY in the last five years.
Don't you have to go defend your fanboy mancrush over on the IU scout boards?
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 03:36:03 PM
Don't you have to go defend your fanboy mancrush over on the IU scout boards?
Very solid response...top notch.
Not my fanboy, certainly not a mancrush. Why would you even be over on an IU scout board...did you go to IU? Obsession much? LOL
Do you think we have developed high school talent very well in the last 5 years, despite it being ranked so highly (rankings can be wrong)? Why the need for JUCOs with all of this high school talent?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 03:51:32 PM
Do you think we have developed high school talent very well in the last 5 years, despite it being ranked so highly (rankings can be wrong)?
You're absolutely right, people just don't want to hear it.
The HS players that have developed into impact players under Buzz? Gardner, Blue, maybe Cadougan? It has to be a concern moving forward.
I will be very, very interested to see how this freshman class develops.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 13, 2014, 04:06:08 PM
You're absolutely right, people just don't want to hear it.
The HS players that have developed into impact players under Buzz? Gardner, Blue, maybe Cadougan? It has to be a concern moving forward.
I will be very, very interested to see how this freshman class develops.
I always wonder why we exclude Butler from that list. I doubt that he had much development at Tyler Junior College. Yeah, technically a JUCO, but his development was really all MU.
Quote from: tower912 on March 13, 2014, 03:36:03 PM
Don't you have to go defend your fanboy mancrush over on the IU scout boards?
This could be the silliest and bitchiest response ever on this board.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 13, 2014, 04:06:08 PM
You're absolutely right, people just don't want to hear it.
The HS players that have developed into impact players under Buzz? Gardner, Blue, maybe Cadougan? It has to be a concern moving forward.
I will be very, very interested to see how this freshman class develops.
I think Mayo's on court development has been strong. Next year he could easily be averaging 14ppg.
Quote from: MUfan12 on March 13, 2014, 04:06:08 PM
You're absolutely right, people just don't want to hear it.
The HS players that have developed into impact players under Buzz? Gardner, Blue, maybe Cadougan? It has to be a concern moving forward.
I will be very, very interested to see how this freshman class develops.
It's not what is said here, it is who says the what.
Quote from: Golden Avalanche on March 13, 2014, 04:18:22 PM
This could be the silliest and bitchiest response ever on this board.
You should pay more attention.
Back to Chico's point. Buzz has sent JUCO's to the league. Jimmy, Jae, Dwight, DJO. He has sent players who were here when he arrived to the pros. Wes. Lazar. Vander is the first HS recruit he has sent to the league. The direction of the causality can be argued. Because he recruited so many JUCO's early, he sent more of them early? Because of who he is, he was able to connect with and get more out of the JUCO's, who arrived with a chip already on their shoulders? By landing highly ranked HS kids, are they arriving without the shoulder chip? I don't know. Two teams without JUCO's. One elite 8, one on the outside looking in.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 04:55:22 PM
It's not what is said here, it is who says the what.
I guess you think that if you repeat this (and other) tired, bogus cliches over and over and over and over and over and over it will magically make them true. You are wrong.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 13, 2014, 04:55:22 PM
It's not what is said here, it is who says the what.
True. I've noticed that.