Readin' a whole lotta smack lately 'bout how Buzz fooked up this season. Maybe, maybe not, I'm not for sure on that. But, if you wanna rip his heine for puttin' together a team devoid of talent, I'm with ya brother. I see a buncha 2 star, mid major playas, who give everything they got. But, they be outta their league.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 08, 2014, 06:33:12 PM
Readin' a whole lotta smack lately 'bout how Buzz fooked up this season. Maybe, maybe not, I'm not for sure on that. But, if you wanna rip his heine for puttin' together a team devoid of talent, I'm with ya brother. I see a buncha 2 star, mid major playas, who give everything they got. But, they be outta their league.
This team is loaded with talent. DG, Otule, Mayo, Burton, Dawson... Buzz just didn't know how to use it this year.
Quote from: chuncken on March 08, 2014, 06:45:15 PM
This team is loaded with talent. DG, Otule, Mayo, Burton, Dawson... Buzz just didn't know how to use it this year.
The prosecution rests its case.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 08, 2014, 06:33:12 PM
Readin' a whole lotta smack lately 'bout how Buzz fooked up this season. Maybe, maybe not, I'm not for sure on that. But, if you wanna rip his heine for puttin' together a team devoid of talent, I'm with ya brother. I see a buncha 2 star, mid major playas, who give everything they got. But, they be outta their league.
We should be happy Cuse, Cincy, Ville, Uconn we're not on the schedule or we would be down there with DePaul.
There was talent, but for some reason no development. It seemed that some of the players performed worse than last year. It makes you question the coaching.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on March 09, 2014, 10:01:21 AM
There was talent, but for some reason no development. It seemed that some of the players performed worse than last year. It makes you question the coaching.
CBSSports.com: When you first got to Marquette, people would always talk about your teams and just say "they play really hard." As you evaluate your program over the past few years, people can now say that you've had some really talented players. Just based on your roster, not based on what people on the roster have done in a game, is this your most talented roster at Marquette?
Williams: No. Because I think there's too much youth to be able to say that. I like their talent but I don't think that you can say that it's the most talented group. I think that from top to bottom, our bottom is getting better and our top is continuing to expand. And that's what you want. You don't want the bottom to continue to weigh you down. I like the direction that we're going in with that. I think we need another really good recruiting class to be able to get out of the bottom as far as our roster is concerned. The truth is, if that happens there's going to be a metamorphosis of our roster because when you look at it a year from today there's going to be very few guys that have played a lot of minutes at this level. Just from a roster change, we're going to be really young again. So it's imperative that those four freshmen that are on our team now, the foundation that is laid for them this year. They've got to mature because next year as sophomores they're going to carry a heavier load than most sophomores do.
Except the coach doesn't appear to agree. But what does he know anyway, right?
Quote from: connie on March 09, 2014, 10:08:37 AM
CBSSports.com: When you first got to Marquette, people would always talk about your teams and just say "they play really hard." As you evaluate your program over the past few years, people can now say that you've had some really talented players. Just based on your roster, not based on what people on the roster have done in a game, is this your most talented roster at Marquette?
Williams: No. Because I think there's too much youth to be able to say that. I like their talent but I don't think that you can say that it's the most talented group. I think that from top to bottom, our bottom is getting better and our top is continuing to expand. And that's what you want. You don't want the bottom to continue to weigh you down. I like the direction that we're going in with that. I think we need another really good recruiting class to be able to get out of the bottom as far as our roster is concerned. The truth is, if that happens there's going to be a metamorphosis of our roster because when you look at it a year from today there's going to be very few guys that have played a lot of minutes at this level. Just from a roster change, we're going to be really young again. So it's imperative that those four freshmen that are on our team now, the foundation that is laid for them this year. They've got to mature because next year as sophomores they're going to carry a heavier load than most sophomores do.
Except the coach doesn't appear to agree. But what does he know anyway, right?
What foundation was laid for JJJ? It was a completely wasted season with no development.
Quote from: connie on March 09, 2014, 10:08:37 AM
Except the coach doesn't appear to agree. But what does he know anyway, right?
Well, he is responsible for the recruiting of the talent and development of it....right?
Quote from: WarriorGreg1965 on March 09, 2014, 10:24:06 AM
What foundation was laid for JJJ? It was a completely wasted season with no development.
I wouldn't say that. A year practicing with legit D1 talent is not a wasted year. Plenty of players play sparingly as freshmen and step in their sophomore years as bona fide contributors with increased minutes. I just hope to god Buzz has a plan for JJJ and he's conveyed that to JJJ and he's on board with it. If JJJ peaces out after one year, not playing at all down the stretch, that'll be egg on Buzz's and the program's face. It would be a total miss on a top 35 recruit.
Quote from: WarriorGreg1965 on March 09, 2014, 10:24:06 AM
What foundation was laid for JJJ? It was a completely wasted season with no development.
What's this based on? Your viewing of the games? I'm guessing you've played sports and understand the value of practice? I don't know that any of us are in a position to say what type of development JJJ had this year
The assumption that this team was talented before the year started was just that, an assumption. Aside from Gardner there was little tangible evidence of the talent level of this roster from a production standpoint. There were many question marks coming inot the year but they were surrounded by hope and positive assumptions. Unfortunately most of the assumptions came up empty. We now know this team wasn't very talented. Not in the right ways anyhow
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 09, 2014, 11:12:38 AM
What's this based on? Your viewing of the games? I'm guessing you've played sports and understand the value of practice? I don't know that any of us are in a position to say what type of development JJJ had this year
The assumption that this team was talented before the year started was just that, an assumption. Aside from Gardner there was little tangible evidence of the talent level of this roster from a production standpoint. There were many question marks coming inot the year but they were surrounded by hope and positive assumptions. Unfortunately most of the assumptions came up empty. We now know this team wasn't very talented. Not in the right ways anyhow
Are you suggesting Jamil Wilson wasn't considered talented prior to this season? Todd Mayo wasn't talented prior to this season?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 11:22:25 AM
Are you suggesting Jamil Wilson wasn't considered talented prior to this season? Todd Mayo wasn't talented prior to this season?
Definitely talented, but still unknown commodities for what was going to be asked of them. Todd stepped up very admirably down the stretch and I'm excited to watch him next season...I think it could be a very special year for him. Jamil came in with question marks and I'd say didn't come close to living up to what was expected of him. So from that standpoint his talents weren't realized.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 08, 2014, 06:33:12 PM
Readin' a whole lotta smack lately 'bout how Buzz fooked up this season. Maybe, maybe not, I'm not for sure on that. But, if you wanna rip his heine for puttin' together a team devoid of talent, I'm with ya brother. I see a buncha 2 star, mid major playas, who give everything they got. But, they be outta their league.
This is accurate. When Vander left and Duane was injured Buzz was caught short, and that's on him. Sub Vander for a walk on (I love the kid and his work ethic but that's what he was) and 4 OT losses and a couple of our other close losses are reversed. If we get anything from McKay, Taylor or Du Wilson things are even better. Don't know what happened with JJJ but something went terribly wrong. The guy Buzz and some team members called our best newcomer ended up next to Dylan Flood on the end of the bench. Bottom line is that around 150 out of 200 possible minutes were being played by 2 and 3 star guys (Derrick, Jake, John D, Todd, Davante and Chris). Unless you have a D Wade, JFB or Jae Crowder in that 2-3 star group that combination won't cut it. People are entitled to their myths (things would have been better or at least no worse with Dawson getting 25 minutes, for example) but the bottom line is that MU minus Blue, McKay, Taylor Jr, Duane Wilson and JJJ didn't have enough talent. Want to blame Buzz, blame him for that.
I believe I have seen Buzz quoted numerous times as saying Jamil is the most talented player he's ever coached.
Jamil was a highly rated, hotly pursued recruit when he was in high school.
When he transferred to MU, it was considered a real coup for the Warriors.
Jamil had been inconsistent his first two seasons at MU but he appeared to find another gear late last season and came up huge several times in the NCAA tourney, most notably against Davidson.
So it was reasonable to assume that even if he didn't become quite the caliber of Jae or Lazar, he at least would become a reliable, often outstanding contributor.
Well, one can say many negative things about Buzz's use of his roster this season -- and we've said them all -- but one can't really say Buzz didn't give Jamil enough minutes to become that contributor.
And what did Jamil do with those minutes? Precious little.
As much as Derrick has become a lightning rod for criticism, Derrick gives what he has to give every game. He is who he is. It is not his fault Buzz plays him 35 minutes instead of the 10 minutes he should be getting. Same is true of Jake.
That's why to me, Jamil has been by far the biggest disappointment this season. Unlike Derrick and Jake, he has real high-level talent and, for whatever reason, it has rarely been on display.
He simply didn't take his game to the next level. One can choose to blame Buzz for Jamil's "lack of development," but was Buzz responsible for Jae's development? Maybe some, but I'm pretty sure Jae mostly took it upon himself to make the most of his talent. Can anyone -- including Jamil -- make that claim about Jamil?
Given what we knew we had at guard -- a huge void by the three departing players that was to be filled either by kids (one of whom got hurt) or low-major-caliber players -- the predictions by coaches, the media and fans largely was made because they expected us to have a dominant frontcourt led by Davante and Jamil.
Davante mostly has done what was expected of him. Is there any question that Jamil did not?
Where's the talent? A good chunk of it is still locked within Jamil's alleged "potential."
I see the failing of this team as the top talent not fully buying in to the hard work it takes to win at this level. Buzz commented several times this season that he starts the kids that work the hardest in practice. He noted that the most talented players were not starting and that that was not good.
Later in the season he did amend this philosophy perhaps in an attempt to win and perhaps to motivate certain players (Mayo, Gardner.) Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't. To me the last two games showed that certain key players really didn't get it or understanding came too late. Talent will take you just so far. It's the work you do before you get on the floor that makes or breaks a season. I know it cliché, but imho certain key players just did not work hard enough the whole season to win the close ones.
Quote from: Ruby on March 09, 2014, 12:21:42 PM
I see the failing of this team as the top talent not fully buying in to the hard work it takes to win at this level. Buzz commented several times this season that he starts the kids that work the hardest in practice. He noted that the most talented players were not starting and that that was not good.
Later in the season he did amend this philosophy perhaps in an attempt to win and perhaps to motivate certain players (Mayo, Gardner.) Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't. To me the last two games showed that certain key players really didn't get it or understanding came too late. Talent will take you just so far. It's the work you do before you get on the floor that makes or breaks a season. I know it cliché, but imho certain key players just did not work hard enough the whole season to win the close ones.
I disagree - talent wins games and two of the most talented players on this team were not on the floor enough - Mayo and Burton.
Mayo did help us win close games, but Derek and Jake (clearly less-talented players) were given a lot more minutes. Burton would have helped us win more, but I guess Juan (clearly less-talented) needed minutes - maybe he could have helped in the 7 games we lost when scoring under 60 points.
Talent wins ballgames - that's why everyone clamors to get 5-star and 4-star players.
Quote from: WarriorGreg1965 on March 09, 2014, 10:24:06 AM
What foundation was laid for JJJ? It was a completely wasted season with no development.
huh? did he not practice the entire year and learn what it takes to play at this level from guys that have been there before?
MU82, I am with you. Jamil not becoming the latest in a line of leaders was the difference. Having starting guards unable to create their own shots is clearly AN issue, but IMO the lack of seniors leading from the front, willing the team to wins, refusing to lose, was THE defining weakness of this team.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 09, 2014, 11:35:01 AM
Definitely talented, but still unknown commodities for what was going to be asked of them. Todd stepped up very admirably down the stretch and I'm excited to watch him next season...I think it could be a very special year for him. Jamil came in with question marks and I'd say didn't come close to living up to what was expected of him. So from that standpoint his talents weren't realized.
In my view, Jamil is possibly the most talented player on this team and Buzz has said so as well. He was picked as a 2nd team All Big East selection for a reason.
Buzz says something like that about one of his players every year....trying to instill confidence in them to step up.....it worked with Jimmy and Jae and Vander.......this year with Jamil not so much....
Not every kid has it in them to be the man.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
In my view, Jamil is possibly the most talented player on this team and Buzz has said so as well. He was picked as a 2nd team All Big East selection for a reason.
Quote from: MuMark on March 09, 2014, 03:14:16 PM
Buzz says something like that about one of his players every year....trying to instill confidence in them to step up.....it worked with Jimmy and Jae and Vander.......this year with Jamil not so much....
Not every kid has it in them to be the man.
That may be the case, but that doesn't take away from the fact he is very talented. Nine other Big East coaches saw that talent and put him on the preseason All Big East team based on what they saw and they weren't doing it to motivate him or instill confidence. The kid has a lot of talent, but for whatever reason Buzz hasn't been able to tap it. This happens with every program and to every coach at some point.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
In my view, Jamil is possibly the most talented player on this team and Buzz has said so as well. He was picked as a 2nd team All Big East selection for a reason.
i don't think many people would disagree... its that he didn't bring it terms of talent to win the close ones...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 02:50:21 PM
In my view, Jamil is possibly the most talented player on this team and Buzz has said so as well. He was picked as a 2nd team All Big East selection for a reason.
Semantics...obviously. Show me production, and I'll show you talent. Did the same coaches vote him 2nd team All Big East after conference season was played?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 03:16:58 PM
That may be the case, but that doesn't take away from the fact he is very talented. Nine other Big East coaches saw that talent and put him on the preseason All Big East team based on what they saw and they weren't doing it to motivate him or instill confidence. The kid has a lot of talent, but for whatever reason Buzz hasn't been able to tap it. This happens with every program and to every coach at some point.
Ahhh, I see. This was laid as a foundation to take the "it's Buzz' fault" angle. Comical...and transparent
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 09, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
Ahhh, I see. This was laid as a foundation to take the "it's Buzz' fault" angle. Comical...and transparent
smh
I clearly stated it happens to all programs at some point. Sometimes coaches just can't get it out of their players. It may be the player's fault, the coach's fault, both...who knows. Point is, as you stated, the production isn't there.
If I don't get the production out of my employees, one of few things happens. Either that employee is blamed or I am blamed....or both. That's how the world works. No different in athletics at this level.
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 09, 2014, 03:41:24 PM
Semantics...obviously. Show me production, and I'll show you talent. Did the same coaches vote him 2nd team All Big East after conference season was played?
It was semantics that 9 other Big East coaches of their own free will and accord chose the Big East teams prior to the season and Jamil got enough votes to be named 2nd team?
You're right, he didn't make it after the conference season was played. So the question is why? The talent is there, it didn't materialize. Why? If someone says it is coaching, well they are comical. If someone says it is Jamil's fault...then what? If someone says both of them, are they half comical?
Semantics
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 03:47:52 PM
smh
I clearly stated it happens to all programs at some point. Sometimes coaches just can't get it out of their players. It may be the player's fault, the coach's fault, both...who knows. Point is, as you stated, the production isn't there.
If I don't get the production out of my employees, one of few things happens. Either that employee is blamed or I am blamed....or both. That's how the world works. No different in athletics at this level.
Totally agree with what you said here. All of it. But come on, I responded to this quote...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 03:16:58 PM
The kid has a lot of talent, but for whatever reason Buzz hasn't been able to tap it. This happens with every program and to every coach at some point.
That clearly places the blame squarely on Buzz. If that's not what you intented then so be it, but there's no room for interpretation there. At least not the way I read it
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 03:50:58 PM
It was semantics that 9 other Big East coaches of their own free will and accord chose the Big East teams prior to the season and Jamil got enough votes to be named 2nd team?
You're right, he didn't make it after the conference season was played. So the question is why? The talent is there, it didn't materialize. Why? If someone says it is coaching, well they are comical. If someone says it is Jamil's fault...then what? If someone says both of them, are they half comical?
Semantics
No, the potential was there. Talent is best measured in results. Results which Jamil never materialized
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 09, 2014, 03:43:04 PM
Ahhh, I see. This was laid as a foundation to take the "it's Buzz' fault" angle. Comical...and transparent
Are you seriously suggesting that Chicos somehow got the rest of the BE coaches to put Jamil on the 2nd team preseason simply to "lay a foundation" to blame Buzz at the end of the year if Jamil underperformed?
Yes, that is comical.
Jamil is a drifter and he defers too much and lacks toughness.
Many of you thought Vander was too cocky but as Buzz said Van had some dog in him....he was fearless and confident in himself and had a swagger to him and could go get you one when you need it. Jamil can't do that.
I think he was hurt more by Vander leaving then Vander was hurt by leaving if we are being frank about it. He needed that kind of personality next to him to take the pressure off him. I thougth that was Todd Mayo but he did not play enough.
Vander was a lighting rod for that but you NEED THOSE KIND OF GUYS...you need some arrogance to be as good as you want to be and not just what you think you are.
Jamil does not have any dog in him. In Al McGuire speak he plays like he lives in a house with grass in his yard not a cracked sidewalk. LOL... [Now granted I have no idea where in Racine Jamil lives or whether that is true of not. I am just using that as an analogy partly to be humorous and mainly to convey a point I want to make.]
He coaches too much and thinks too much and does not do enough at the right times and should just hush and play at times.
Some guys don't have a heart for it even though they have the skill and the ideal basketball body. He doesn't like contact. He doesn't like risking his shot getting blocked so he does not mix it up down low and is too fragile when he misses shots early.
But he doesn't have it inside them. High bball IQ but is unlike Wesley who knows how to apply it. That is not Buzz's fault.
Quote from: The Equalizer on March 09, 2014, 04:38:16 PM
Are you seriously suggesting that Chicos somehow got the rest of the BE coaches to put Jamil on the 2nd team preseason simply to "lay a foundation" to blame Buzz at the end of the year if Jamil underperformed?
Yes, that is comical.
Uhhh no...no I wasn't. Maybe re-read it
The team Buzz put out on the floor could not shoot. If you can't shoot you cannot score......
.
Quote from: elephantraker on March 09, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
The team Buzz put out on the floor could not shoot. If you can't shoot you cannot score......
.
Maybe he should recruit some guys who can shoot?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 09, 2014, 11:28:15 PM
Maybe he should recruit some guys who can shoot?
I really do wonder where are shooting woes come from. I don't think it is as simple as not recruiting guys who can shoot. I wonder if our weight training program is affecting our shooting.
Quote from: forgetful on March 09, 2014, 11:37:48 PM
I really do wonder where are shooting woes come from. I don't think it is as simple as not recruiting guys who can shoot. I wonder if our weight training program is affecting our shooting.
This is why we need to bring in a certified ballet instructor so that the team can improve its finesse and agility. And a strict regimen of gargling, too. Listerine, not Scope.
Regarding the freshmen, what I see from the three played is that 2 of them had close to zero coaching coming into the MU program. Dawson has some fundamentals and at times struggled with the pace of the BE game. That's OK. The other two spent the year in "remedial basketball" for the uncoached. Burton figured out a few things sooner, so he got PT. (actually, all he figured out was some basics of man defense, but still not much) and JJJ really didn't get a chance to show if he figured out anything... but I can tell you that his shooting form will NOT stand the test of time. He's going to need to learn to shoot properly. Again, fundamentals. This is not on Buzz. I'm sure he knew this and didn't plan to play any of them other than spot minutes because he had Vander, Jake, Mayo, Derrick, Juan, etc. It's on their HS and AAU coaches.
I look for HUGE things from all 4 freshmen as long as they commit to learning the fundamentals and keep up in the classroom. These are all incredibly talented individuals, who have been done a dis-service (except possibly Dawson) by the system that brought them here.
For those that think I'm full of sh*t, refer to Taylor, Steven Jr. He comes from an outstanding program with years of excellent coaching. He has fundamentals. He understands positioning - zone and man. Look at the difference between him and the others as a freshman... and that alone tells you the story.
Quote from: chuncken on March 08, 2014, 06:45:15 PM
This team is loaded with talent. DG, Otule, Mayo, Burton, Dawson... Buzz just didn't know how to use it this year.
Buzz has said since day 1, you're only as good as your proven returning upperclassmen. Not much there to get off to a good start. Davante but he sucks at D and rebounding. Ultimately it is Buzz's fault he didn't have the roster ready but Blue going hurt.