How can people even defend this anymore?
Now our BET road is even harder.
Great job buzz!!! Keep riding Derrick!!! Keep drawing up plays that never work!!!
Keep subbing Ox!!! Keep sitting burton!!!!
Keep not starting Todd!!!!
Such a great game. My first thought, which is ridiculous, was omg scoop is going to melt down with D Wil taking that shot. He had no business taking it but nothing changes. Win the BET!
What's the serious question? It reads more like a rant
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on March 08, 2014, 01:56:13 PM
How can people even defend this anymore?
Now our BET road is even harder.
No - it made no difference whatsoever. We have to win the BET no matter what happened today.
Quote from: brandx on March 08, 2014, 02:01:11 PM
No - it made no difference whatsoever. We have to win the BET no matter what happened today.
Well that clearly is not happening.
Doesn't matter what we do and how much every fan sees Derrick's limitations. People will come here to tag on DW. I feel bad for the kid at this point. Just the aha the takes here is nuts. That's all everyone here gets off on now. Not if we lose or win but how DW plays.
Can't wait to break from this board for five months to see if the jags go away.
Dawson was -5 in 90 seconds of run.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 08, 2014, 02:03:36 PM
Doesn't matter what we do and how much every fan sees Derrick's limitations. People will come here to tag on DW. I feel bad for the kid at this point. Just the aha the takes here is nuts. That's all everyone here gets off on now. Not if we lose or win but how DW plays.
Can't wait to break from this board for five months to see if the jags go away.
You're right. It has gotten that bad and I feel bad for the kid. But there is no way that he should be playing more minutes than anyone else on this team. And That is on Buzz.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 08, 2014, 02:03:36 PM
Doesn't matter what we do and how much every fan sees Derrick's limitations. People will come here to tag on DW. I feel bad for the kid at this point. Just the aha the takes here is nuts. That's all everyone here gets off on now. Not if we lose or win but how DW plays.
Can't wait to break from this board for five months to see if the jags go away.
I feel bad for the kid but he was recruited, committed, signed and plays for a Division I team that also happens to be THE moneymaker for the university.
Derrick has been solid for MU in the past...AS A BENCH PLAYER.
This year, we have seen that he lacks the leadership, offensive punch, and impact this team needs to succeed.
One summer won't fix all the problems either.
He will do best as Buzz's defensive bulldog off the bench.
I'm relieved we lost. We all know this team can't win four in row, but three... It's setting up perfectly
Quote from: NickelDimer on March 08, 2014, 02:00:59 PM
What's the serious question? It reads more like a rant
Did you see where the question mark was placed?
Quote from: brandx on March 08, 2014, 02:01:11 PM
No - it made no difference whatsoever. We have to win the BET no matter what happened today.
Yeah it does because now we play X and Creighton first.
I would rather play Providence forsure and probably nova before Creighton.
Also, this thread got pinned to the top? Lol. Thought it got deleted til I searched my post history.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on March 08, 2014, 02:09:35 PM
Yeah it does because now we play X and Creighton first.
I would rather play Providence forsure and probably nova before Creighton.
Also, this thread got pinned to the top? Lol. Thought it got deleted til I searched my post history.
Why set yourself up for disappointment. This Marquette team will be one and done in the NIT anyway. Rough season.
Quote from: tower912 on March 08, 2014, 02:05:23 PM
Dawson was -5 in 90 seconds of run.
And D Wil had 9 assists.
Quote from: tower912 on March 08, 2014, 02:05:23 PM
Dawson was -5 in 90 seconds of run.
Yep....never given a chance to play through 1 turnover/pass deflected...immediately to the bench...confidence inspiring. Derrick had a similar turnover in 1st half as well. Dawson goes to basket 2nd time in the game, and gets tied up..as has happened to Mayo, Jamil, Derrick repeatedly...results in turnover...we stop initial shot, Dawson gets called for foul...bench the rest of the game.
Meanwhile, our 48 minute per game PG that we've seen play more minutes than any other player on the team contributes 2 points..and not a whisper of criticism...
Quote from: MU B2002 on March 08, 2014, 02:32:55 PM
And D Wil had 9 assists.
Big deal?? 9 assists in 48 minutes of PT?? 2 points in 48 minutes??
Big deal?? 9 assists in 48 minutes of PT?? 2 points in 48 minutes??
[/quote]
I am learning so much from you Ners.
So assists for a PG are not a big deal. Please keep the basketball wisdom coming Dr Naismith.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on March 08, 2014, 02:38:20 PM
Big deal?? 9 assists in 48 minutes of PT?? 2 points in 48 minutes??
I am learning so much from you Ners.
So assists for a PG are not a big deal. Please keep the basketball wisdom coming Dr Naismith.
There was some home cooking going on for some of those assists...I had him at 6 legit assists. Whatever the total, no one can claim he was a playmaker out there today regardless of what that assist total was.
Seriously, look at what Derrick running the show has lead on to?
Junior wasn't great but man we are dancing easily with him.
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on March 08, 2014, 02:38:20 PM
Big deal?? 9 assists in 48 minutes of PT?? 2 points in 48 minutes??
I am learning so much from you Ners.
So assists for a PG are not a big deal. Please keep the basketball wisdom coming Dr Naismith.
What's your take on this season's failure? How do you explain Todd Mayo looking like an entirely different player these last 8 games....since Buzz FINALLY stopped with the head games and yanking him out after every single god damn mistake?
Buzz has given Derrick more minutes than any other player on the team, and he has not shown one lick of improvement all season. Sorry, I'm underwhelmed by a guy getting 9 assists in a Double OT game. Has opponent had 20 points, 6 assists, 5 steals....
One assist every 5:20 as a PG is nothing to RAVE about, especially when you scored 2 points in 48 and went your standard 0-2 from FT line..
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on March 08, 2014, 02:38:20 PM
Big deal?? 9 assists in 48 minutes of PT?? 2 points in 48 minutes??
I am learning so much from you Ners.
So assists for a PG are not a big deal. Please keep the basketball wisdom coming Dr Naismith.
Just not about assists, you have to have some sort of points coming from your starting point guard these days. Its almost mandatory, only to have the defense be abit scared of the point guard to any degree. That is not the case with MU. Not an argument for Dawson since I actually believe Duane Wilson will play PG next year, but the below facts speaks for itself.
Dwil's last five games:
Total of 11 points. Thats 2 ppg.
3 for 16 in field goal attempts Thats 19%
5 for 16 in free throws Thats 31%
Assists 21, turnovers 8 OK....
Dwil played 37 minutes in Providence game and had 1 point.
Dwil played 47 minutes in STJ game and had 2 points.
Total agreement on the home cooking served up by our stats crew. No flipping way Derrick deserved to have 9 assists!
Quote from: IrwinFletcher on March 08, 2014, 02:38:20 PM
Big deal?? 9 assists in 48 minutes of PT?? 2 points in 48 minutes??
I am learning so much from you Ners.
So assists for a PG are not a big deal. Please keep the basketball wisdom coming Dr Naismith.
While I disagree with Ners on the Wilson/Dawson debate, trying to make a case to defend Wilson's play one simply has to look at his box score of the last three games to know it's pointless and lacks intelligence to even attempt it.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 08, 2014, 02:51:31 PM
While I disagree with Ners on the Wilson/Dawson debate, trying to make a case to defend Wilson's play one simply has to look at his box score of the last three games to know it's pointless and lacks intelligence to even attempt it.
And that goes back to my original post
Serious question...How can anyone defend this anymore?
Somehow they can. But look stupid in the process.
Did Derrick get credit for the assist when he handed off to Davante underneath and SJU got called for goaltending?
Quote from: Boone on March 08, 2014, 02:50:09 PM
Total agreement on the home cooking served up by our stats crew. No flipping way Derrick deserved to have 9 assists!
Yes, but someof those were Basic Assists.
Quote from: tower912 on March 08, 2014, 03:11:22 PM
Did Derrick get credit for the assist when he handed off to Davante underneath and SJU got called for goaltending?
Hope not. It was an awful pass.
Quote from: Ners on March 08, 2014, 02:34:18 PM
Meanwhile, our 48 minute per game PG that we've seen play more minutes than any other player on the team contributes 2 points..and not a whisper of criticism...
Not a whisper of criticism of Derrick Wilson on Scoop?
Did I miss the eerie music and the Rod Serling introduction, or what?
He actually said 'not a whisper of criticism of Derrick Wilson'? Gracious. Cloudcuckooland. Glad I have him on ignore.
Not sure, but according to the play-by-play, he was awarded an assist on a pass under the hoop that Davante dropped, then picked up, shot and scored.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on March 08, 2014, 03:39:23 PM
Hope not. It was an awful pass.
Are you referring to the play where Derrick drove the lane then did the wrap around pass that hit Davante right in the chest?
Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Not a whisper of criticism of Derrick Wilson on Scoop?
Did I miss the eerie music and the Rod Serling introduction, or what?
Go back and read the post I quoted...Tower (to whom the point of not a whisper of criticism) and his undying love for Derrick Wilson have reached an epic proportion...maybe if Tower and a few others would ever acknowledge the reality, it wouldn't continue to perpetuate all of the discussion...but when they make such ludicrous points to try to support the notion the team would be worse with Dawson running the point..or turn a blind eye to all of the flaws with Derrick - it perpetuates the criticism/critical posts on Derrick.
Sure would love it if Tower would go point out all of the 90 second segments Derrick has been -5 this year..
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on March 08, 2014, 02:41:54 PM
Seriously, look at what Derrick running the show has lead on to?
Junior wasn't great but man we are dancing easily with him.
Cadougan was surrounded by much better talent. Let's not paint him out to be the second com in' of Chris Paul. That said, Derrick can't carry Junior's Bike.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 08, 2014, 07:31:33 PM
Cadougan was surrounded by much better talent. Let's not paint him out to be the second com in' of Chris Paul. That said, Derrick can't carry Junior's Bike.
Ummm
read my post again
Specifically the part where I said Junior wasn't great
Quote from: Ners on March 08, 2014, 04:41:31 PM
Go back and read the post I quoted...Tower (to whom the point of not a whisper of criticism) and his undying love for Derrick Wilson have reached an epic proportion...maybe if Tower and a few others would ever acknowledge the reality, it wouldn't continue to perpetuate all of the discussion...but when they make such ludicrous points to try to support the notion the team would be worse with Dawson running the point..or turn a blind eye to all of the flaws with Derrick - it perpetuates the criticism/critical posts on Derrick.
Sure would love it if Tower would go point out all of the 90 second segments Derrick has been -5 this year..
Got it. I thought it was a generalization, not specifically to one poster.
Even if one really likes Derrick (and Jake, for that matter), it's hard to imagine a credible argument being made that Dawson (and JJJ, for that matter) should get zero to 2 minutes of P.T.
Quote from: MU82 on March 08, 2014, 10:14:00 PM
Got it. I thought it was a generalization, not specifically to one poster.
Even if one really likes Derrick (and Jake, for that matter), it's hard to imagine a credible argument being made that Dawson (and JJJ, for that matter) should get zero to 2 minutes of P.T.
i haven't read every post on the subject, but I am 99.9999999% sure that no one has tried to make that argument. and even more sure that no one thinks that.
Thought Derrick was fine today. Played excellent defense on Harrison. Had some quality assists and steals. Only one bad TO that I can remember. That last second shot goes in and most of this board is in love with Derrick
Also thought Dawson was terrible. Harrison abused Dawson and he had some ugly turnovers.
That being said....I still would have run Dawson AT LEAST 10 minutes. Derrick was gassed and you could tell.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 09, 2014, 04:11:33 AM
Thought Derrick was fine today. Played excellent defense on Harrison. Had some quality assists and steals. Only one bad TO that I can remember. That last second shot goes in and most of this board is in love with Derrick
Also thought Dawson was terrible. Harrison abused Dawson and he had some ugly turnovers.
That being said....I still would have run Dawson AT LEAST 10 minutes. Derrick was gassed and you could tell.
TAMU - this post is a joke right?
I'll make this easier to swallow. This year's PG play has been terrible, not just Derrick. Consider a few things. Opposing guards our 'best defender I've ever coached' to quote Buzz have outscored their season average against this team. How does a great defender and defensive team allow opposing teams' guards to have career days every game and still be credited for being skilled defenders?
How does our best defender look away from his man up three with under 30 seconds to play only to have Harrison drain a three pointer to tie the game and he doesn't even realize it by the time he looks back at his man and we consider that good defense?
How does our starting point guard shoot under 22% from the field, under 38% from the line and have at least 8 bone headed fouls/turnovers/poor decisions in the last three games that cost us be considered 'quite fine?
Harrison, Cotton, Starks, Garrett Jr., etc, etc have all far exceeded their season averages against Derrick Wilson and company and you have somehow convinced yourself he's a good defender. Can you explain your rationale or have you so thoroughly drank the Kool Aid that you can no longer tell reality from fiction?
Our starting PG brings nothing to the table offensively, he's below average ORtg for the team and the numbers bear it out, and yet his defense allows players to out produce their normal stat lines. Can you make a reasonable argument to support him being a great defender, the greatest defender Buzz has ever coached?
Is Buzz making those statements in regards to Derrick scrimmaging with his kids' basketball teams he coaches on the weekends?
Believing in Buzz being the right man for the job is one thing, as I and many others on here believe. Believing what simply isn't true from any statistical measure solely because Buzz says it to be so is a completely different thing altogether. You're infallible coach is wrong on this one and you're logic is going down with the ship and losing credibility on this forum the longer you toe the line on your 'rational' observations.
OK, this one confuses me. I thought your numbers showed that Derrick was the better PG this year.
Derrick is not a threat to score. It has been written and said many times, but in the half court offense with Derrick at the point, Marquette is effectively playing 4 on 5. His man can play back 8 to 10 feet and double team or cut down on the driving lanes. Honestly, I saw a better half court offense under Dukiet (but Dukiet had Toni Smith, so that is not exactly fair).
I look forward to a healthy Duane Wilson.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 09, 2014, 04:30:20 AM
How does our best defender look away from his man up three with under 30 seconds to play only to have Harrison drain a three pointer to tie the game and he doesn't even realize it by the time he looks back at his man and we consider that good defense?
C'mon, nobody expected the guy to launch from that distance. Low percentage shot that unfortunately went in.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 09, 2014, 04:30:20 AM
Harrison, Cotton, Starks, Garrett Jr., etc, etc have all far exceeded their season averages against Derrick Wilson and company and you have somehow convinced yourself he's a good defender. Can you explain your rationale or have you so thoroughly drank the Kool Aid that you can no longer tell reality from fiction?
Do you watch us play defense? We switch constantly. Derrick does a very good job guarding his man, and those other guards generally get a lot of their points after the switch when they often beat our other guards or commonly our forwards. That said, while Derrick is a plus defender he is not close to being the best defender Buzz has coached (I firmly believe that Dominic James is the best on ball defender I can remember suiting up for MU and Buzz coached that guy). The fact of the matter is that we don't have great defenders all over the floor like we usually do to make Buzz's defense work. Our best exterior defenders in the Buzz mold, Derrick and Juan, are unfortunately horrific offensive players.
So a lot of Derrick's problems are based on the way Buzz is using him. He is surrounded by players that amplify his very severe limitations on offense (granted he would be a lousy offensive player regardless of who else he is playing with, but the guys we have on the floor with him are doing him no favors), and we have a defensive scheme that makes the one thing he does well, guard the ball, less important as he is easily switched off of the ball. And he plays too many minutes, so he wears down at the end of games.
I think he will be better next year. I think by far his biggest failing this year was not being able to work a two man game with Gardner, out best interior scorer in a very long time. That will be less of an issue next year as we won't rely on the traditional low post game.
I don't know what some of you are smoking or looking at.
Derrick is far from the best defender we have ever had at MU. Having said that, Derrick is our best perimeter defender PERIOD. That doesn't mean he is a great defender but when compared to the rest of our players, he is very good on a defensive team that is average at best.
Now looking at a box score and saying that Cotton, Harrison and other point guards total points scored proves that Derrick is not a good defender is a stupid comment to make. Do you not watch the games? Do you not see that our defensive philosophy is to switch on screens? Do you not see that Buzz from time to time uses color coded cards so that our players know what type of defense to play that trip down the court? Just because Harrison finished with 20 doesn't mean he got 20 on Derrick. I wasn't keep track but I know he hit a three on Thomas when he was guarding him off the switch in the first half.
We need an upgrade at the point guard position next year. I don't think anyone is debating that. My hope is that Duane Wilson has the goods to supplement and play some point guard minutes and that Derrick and Dawson improve significantly or it is going to be another long year.
That assumes the roster stays constituted as is presently known; just sayin'.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 09, 2014, 08:51:42 AM
I don't know what some of you are smoking or looking at.
Derrick is far from the best defender we have ever had at MU. Having said that, Derrick is our best perimeter defender PERIOD. That doesn't mean he is a great defender but when compared to the rest of our players, he is very good on a defensive team that is average at best.
Now looking at a box score and saying that Cotton, Harrison and other point guards total points scored proves that Derrick is not a good defender is a stupid comment to make. Do you not watch the games? Do you not see that our defensive philosophy is to switch on screens? Do you not see that Buzz from time to time uses color coded cards so that our players know what type of defense to play that trip down the court? Just because Harrison finished with 20 doesn't mean he got 20 on Derrick. I wasn't keep track but I know he hit a three on Thomas when he was guarding him off the switch in the first half.
We need an upgrade at the point guard position next year. I don't think anyone is debating that. My hope is that Duane Wilson has the goods to supplement and play some point guard minutes and that Derrick and Dawson improve significantly or it is going to be another long year.
There have been some games where we switched on all screens - but it was more matchup dependent - did it against McDermott exclusively.
However, question: If you have a true, elite, lockdown defender at the guard position - why do you not just assign him to the oppositions best player, and lock him down? Why switch say Derrick off of Cotton to Henton or someone else? The reality is, is that there hasn't been a lot of switching - and if Buzz truly believed he had an amazing lock down defender at the PG position - he'd assign him to ballhawk the opponents PG at all times.
The new hand check rules hurt Derrick - eliminated his best asset as a defender - physicality. He's still a good defender....but I wouldn't say elite...if he were....Buzz would never have Derrick switch off his man..ever.
Quote from: Ners on March 09, 2014, 09:01:47 AM
There have been some games where we switched on all screens - but it was more matchup dependent - did it against McDermott exclusively.
However, question: If you have a true, elite, lockdown defender at the guard position - why do you not just assign him to the oppositions best player, and lock him down? Why switch say Derrick off of Cotton to Henton or someone else? The reality is, is that there hasn't been a lot of switching - and if Buzz truly believed he had an amazing lock down defender at the PG position - he'd assign him to ballhawk the opponents PG at all times.
The new hand check rules hurt Derrick - eliminated his best asset as a defender - physicality. He's still a good defender....but I wouldn't say elite...if he were....Buzz would never have Derrick switch off his man..ever.
Sorry, but this is just absolutely blatantly incorrect. You are making up your own reality.
Quote from: tower912 on March 09, 2014, 07:17:49 AM
OK, this one confuses me. I thought your numbers showed that Derrick was the better PG this year.
Tower - He is the better PG unfortunately.
My post was in response to TAMU saying he thought Wilson played 'quite well' yesterday.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 08, 2014, 11:37:22 PM
i haven't read every post on the subject, but I am 99.9999999% sure that no one has tried to make that argument. and even more sure that no one thinks that.
You know who seems to think that? The only person who matters: Buzz.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 09, 2014, 08:15:59 AM
C'mon, nobody expected the guy to launch from that distance. Low percentage shot that unfortunately went in.
Except he has done it every game. Of course it was to be expected. As a matter of fact, he had done it earlier in this game.
I mean who would expect the leading 3-point shooter in St. John's history to shoot a 3-pointer (from a distance he often shoots from) with the game on the line?
Quote from: Ners on March 09, 2014, 09:01:47 AM
However, question: If you have a true, elite, lockdown defender at the guard position - why do you not just assign him to the oppositions best player, and lock him down? Why switch say Derrick off of Cotton to Henton or someone else? The reality is, is that there hasn't been a lot of switching - and if Buzz truly believed he had an amazing lock down defender at the PG position - he'd assign him to ballhawk the opponents PG at all times.
I don't know the answer to your question. Derrick Wilson is not a lockdown defender (true lockdown defenders are rare), but I think Buzz is certain that he is our best perimeter defender. Maybe Buzz doesn't want him fighting through screens 35 minutes a night because it will wear him down. But I disagree that we don't do an inordinate amount of switching all the time. Maybe his philosophy is that all the guys should be able to defend.
Quote from: CTWarrior on March 09, 2014, 12:29:04 PM
I don't know the answer to your question. Derrick Wilson is not a lockdown defender (true lockdown defenders are rare), but I think Buzz is certain that he is our best perimeter defender. Maybe Buzz doesn't want him fighting through screens 35 minutes a night because it will wear him down. But I disagree that we don't do an inordinate amount of switching all the time. Maybe his philosophy is that all the guys should be able to defend.
Since it is a known fact that Derrick really has zero contribution to the offense other than dribbling the ball up the court wouldn't this be his greatest contribution?
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 09, 2014, 12:38:35 PM
Since is a known fact that Derrick really has zero contribution to the offense other than dribbling the ball up the court wouldn't this be his greatest contribution?
Yes, it would.
Quote from: MU82 on March 09, 2014, 12:05:06 PM
You know who seems to think that? The only person who matters: Buzz.
Oh. If you're going to go in that direction, then shouldn't all the questions, criticisms and critiques be sent in emails to Buzz and not posts here?
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 09, 2014, 11:18:15 AM
Tower - He is the better PG unfortunately.
My post was in response to TAMU saying he thought Wilson played 'quite well' yesterday.
That was quite the rant Matty. I think you and I differ on expectations. You can check my post history. Preseason I expected Derrick to be even worse than he has been. I thought 5 ppg for him was optimistic at best. Does his play hurt us? Absolutely. No one in their right mind would say any different. But I expected this. I think everyone should have expected this. I am more down on players that I expected to be better (Jamil, Johnson, Juan, etc) and have been underperforming.
So yes, I thought Derrick's 2 pt, 6 rbd, 9 ast, 2 stl, 2 TO game was playing "quite well" for Derrick. I don't know why people expect him to be suddenly good.
As for the defense. Harrison averages 17.6 ppg in 32 minutes this season. He scored 20 in 48 minutes yesterday. So despite Harrison getting 16 extra minutes, Derrick held him to only 2.4 points over his season average. And as others pointed out, our defense relies on a lot of help and switches. Personally, I am much more upset with Jake and Mayo who were taking turns guarding Rysheed Jordan. He averages 9.4 ppg and went off for 20. Where's the outrage there?
And that 3 pointer you quoted? I would let Harrison shoot that all damn day. That was a Jimmer range three in a situation that didn't require a three. We want him to launch early in the shot clock deep threes. He just happened to make it. That is not bad defense, it is clutch offense.
As for believing things just because the coach says them. I think the line about Derrick being the best defender is crap. It's a motivational tool that Buzz uses to try and support a player that is getting attacked by his own fanbase. Seriously, the emails and fbook messages Derrick gets on a regular basis from other students and alumni would make your stomach crawl. (They shouldn't because people say the same crap on here, but it somehow seems worse when you send it directly to a kid). I have my own thoughts and opinions on matters. I don't agree with a lot of the decisions that have been made this year. I have shared many of them on this board. I just accept that there is a reason that I am a fan and he is a coach. Just because my beliefs align more with the coach's than yours does not make me an idiot.
Keep to the stats Matty. You bring a lot of good info here. I don't accuse you of drinking haterade. So don't accuse me of slurping kool-aid.