MUScoop

http://news.yahoo.com/plan-divide-california-6-states-advances-003356451.html?vp=1

I'd like to hear what our Californians here think about the proposed break up.

I'd venture to guess that CBB is for it.   ;D

All we want is to send our Californians back to the Bay Area.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 21, 2014, 04:29:13 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/plan-divide-california-6-states-advances-003356451.html?vp=1

I'd like to hear what our Californians here think about the proposed break up.

I'd venture to guess that CBB is for it.   ;D

I'm breaking up with the state, so I don't particularly care any more.  Long ago lost, nothing like it used to be.  Sad. 

I am with CBB, I have been here 30+ years and watched California deteriorate.  Seen  many good people leave and others planning to once they retire. Legislature passes more onerous laws each year.
Soon it will be the Uber-Rich and the underemployed service workers.

Quote from: elephantraker on February 21, 2014, 06:36:16 PM
I am with CBB, I have been here 30+ years and watched California deteriorate.  Seen  many good people leave and others planning to once they retire. Legislature passes more onerous laws each year.
Soon it will be the Uber-Rich and the underemployed service workers.

What will happen to Barbra Streisand, Ed Asner, and the Scientologists?

Quote from: elephantraker on February 21, 2014, 06:36:16 PM
I am with CBB, I have been here 30+ years and watched California deteriorate.  Seen  many good people leave and others planning to once they retire. Legislature passes more onerous laws each year.
Soon it will be the Uber-Rich and the underemployed service workers.

I will miss the amazing weather...absolutely amazing and I'll miss the mountains, beaches, forests, deserts.  Unfortunately, the taxes, traffic, cost of living, schools, the outright refusal to enforce our laws, the outright creation of some of the dumbest laws on the planet, etc...we gone.  So many quality folks have left.  Really sad.  We are not far behind.  My wife, a native, is bummed but she finally has accepted reality and said ok last year.  She's been here more than 40 years sans one year in Milwaukee.  Personally, I can't wait.  This place used to be incredible, truly incredible.  It was Disneyland all the time.  4th highest GDP in the world, limited gov't, free spirit..."can do" attitudes, hard working dreamers, etc.  Now the 9th highest GDP, we protect Delta Smelt fish over farmers, we have droughts because we release trillions of gallons of water into the ocean, we give legal documents to people that broke laws and are here illegally...the irony.

Oh what a place it was.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2014, 06:52:55 PM
I will miss the amazing weather...absolutely amazing and I'll miss the mountains, beaches, forests, deserts.  Unfortunately, the taxes, traffic, cost of living, schools, the outright refusal to enforce our laws, the outright creation of some of the dumbest laws on the planet, etc...we gone.  So many quality folks have left.  Really sad.  We are not far behind.  My wife, a native, is bummed but she finally has accepted reality and said ok last year.  She's been here more than 40 years sans one year in Milwaukee.  Personally, I can't wait.  This place used to be incredible, truly incredible.  It was Disneyland all the time.  4th highest GDP in the world, limited gov't, free spirit..."can do" attitudes, hard working dreamers, etc.  Now the 9th highest GDP, we protect Delta Smelt fish over farmers, we have droughts because we release trillions of gallons of water into the ocean, we give legal documents to people that broke laws and are here illegally...the irony.

Oh what a place it was.

I thought I had heard it all about California until we met a couple while on a cruise of the BVIs who were very well-off arborists.  Apparently in California (or at least where they lived in the San Jose area) you have to get government permission to cut down a tree on your own property.  And said tree basically has to be completely dead or your request will be denied.  This couple made a crapload of money because they were among the few that know how to navigate the reams of bureaucratic paperwork.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2014, 06:52:55 PM
I will miss the amazing weather...absolutely amazing and I'll miss the mountains, beaches, forests, deserts.  Unfortunately, the taxes, traffic, cost of living, schools, the outright refusal to enforce our laws, the outright creation of some of the dumbest laws on the planet, etc...we gone.  So many quality folks have left.  Really sad.  We are not far behind.  My wife, a native, is bummed but she finally has accepted reality and said ok last year.  She's been here more than 40 years sans one year in Milwaukee.  Personally, I can't wait.  This place used to be incredible, truly incredible.  It was Disneyland all the time.  4th highest GDP in the world, limited gov't, free spirit..."can do" attitudes, hard working dreamers, etc.  Now the 9th highest GDP, we protect Delta Smelt fish over farmers, we have droughts because we release trillions of gallons of water into the ocean, we give legal documents to people that broke laws and are here illegally...the irony.

Oh what a place it was.

You guys are also getting a lot of quality folks too. San Fran/Silicon Valley will be the worlds economic center in 20 years, most of the immigrants moving to California are Asian/South Asian, who are the wealthiest people in the country. Their GDP still continues to outpace the rest of the USA. Of course the rank is going to drop, the rest of the world is industrializing. California's brightest days are yet to come.

Btw, where are you moving to?

Quote from: warriorchick on February 21, 2014, 07:04:24 PM
I thought I had heard it all about California until we met a couple while on a cruise of the BVIs who were very well-off arborists.  Apparently in California (or at least where they lived in the San Jose area) you have to get government permission to cut down a tree on your own property.  And said tree basically has to be completely dead or your request will be denied.  This couple made a crapload of money because they were among the few that know how to navigate the reams of bureaucratic paperwork.

Was looking to buy a house that had giant oak tree on property. A large branch was literally laying on a neighbor's roof. Because the town is ThousandOaks, I knew I had to get permission to touch the tree. Went to the town hall and spoke to the correct person. I would have to hire an arborist who would prepare a plan. The town would then hire an arborist,at my expense and,most likely, the same one. They would then review the reports and decide.
I asked the guy at city hall if he would every consider buying a house with an oak on the property and he said,"no".  Backed out of the deal.

Quote from: warriorchick on February 21, 2014, 07:04:24 PM
I thought I had heard it all about California until we met a couple while on a cruise of the BVIs who were very well-off arborists.  Apparently in California (or at least where they lived in the San Jose area) you have to get government permission to cut down a tree on your own property.  And said tree basically has to be completely dead or your request will be denied.  This couple made a crapload of money because they were among the few that know how to navigate the reams of bureaucratic paperwork.

Cal planned to build a Sports Training Complex on University property next to the football stadium. A group of chuckleheads lived in the oak trees for two years to prevent the construction. The cost of this protest was mind boggling.

It is ridiculous sh it like this that makes me think California is utterly uninhabitable.


http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/One-year-into-protest-UC-Berkeley-s-tree-sitters-3233836.php#photo-2376750

(http://ww1.hdnux.com/photos/11/04/20/2376748/7/628x471.jpg)


(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROowySs2PKYjIiaqb3lKuceswBTnZ_hwX_MquCEJhQzAq7c1E3)

Quote from: elephantraker on February 21, 2014, 07:27:28 PM
Was looking to buy a house that had giant oak tree on property. A large branch was literally laying on a neighbor's roof. Because the town is ThousandOaks, I knew I had to get permission to touch the tree. Went to the town hall and spoke to the correct person. I would have to hire an arborist who would prepare a plan. The town would then hire an arborist,at my expense and,most likely, the same one. They would then review the reports and decide.
I asked the guy at city hall if he would every consider buying a house with an oak on the property and he said,"no".  Backed out of the deal.

Small world...I spent 12 years of my life in Thousand Oaks.  And yes, getting rid of a tree there was quite an ordeal.  It's amazing as a property owner just how much  you don't own in this state.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 21, 2014, 07:06:44 PM
You guys are also getting a lot of quality folks too. San Fran/Silicon Valley will be the worlds economic center in 20 years, most of the immigrants moving to California are Asian/South Asian, who are the wealthiest people in the country. Their GDP still continues to outpace the rest of the USA. Of course the rank is going to drop, the rest of the world is industrializing. California's brightest days are yet to come.

Btw, where are you moving to?

That's somewhat what Elephant was talking about, sure you get talented people here, our company brings in folks from all over the world.  The total lack of any semblance of enforcing our laws or borders, also brings in folks that are an incredible drain on resources, too.  You end up having a state that is inhabited by the rich and the poor.  Adding far more poor than rich, either through offspring or lack of enforcement.

I don't see how California's brightest days are yet to come.  Will there be times where it is better than today...sure.  Will it be like it was, I sincerely doubt it.  The number of people that have moved out is breath taking.  When I was growing up here it was blasphemy to even contemplate moving out of state.  I was one of the very few that left the state from my high school for college...people couldn't believe it.  People have left in droves and the replacements in population (legal and illegal) hasn't always been an equal exchange.  The amount of money beholden to the state employees now is so large it has strangled the state.  They can't get it under control and this will prevent it from getting back to where it was.  The pension liability is staggering.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 21, 2014, 05:29:37 PM
I'm breaking up with the state, so I don't particularly care any more.  Long ago lost, nothing like it used to be.  Sad. 

Yep. Same here. I grew up in SoCal. I love the outdoor activities that are unique to the state. But, when I was young and stupid I moved to Illinois to be closer to my buds from MU.

Frying pan --> Fire.

Now I am about two years from leaving this place too, but California will not be on the "potential" list.

It's nice to visit to see family, but that's it.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 22, 2014, 02:02:58 AM
That's somewhat what Elephant was talking about, sure you get talented people here, our company brings in folks from all over the world.  The total lack of any semblance of enforcing our laws or borders, also brings in folks that are an incredible drain on resources, too.  You end up having a state that is inhabited by the rich and the poor.  Adding far more poor than rich, either through offspring or lack of enforcement.

I don't see how California's brightest days are yet to come.  Will there be times where it is better than today...sure.  Will it be like it was, I sincerely doubt it.  The number of people that have moved out is breath taking.  When I was growing up here it was blasphemy to even contemplate moving out of state.  I was one of the very few that left the state from my high school for college...people couldn't believe it.  People have left in droves and the replacements in population (legal and illegal) hasn't always been an equal exchange.  The amount of money beholden to the state employees now is so large it has strangled the state.  They can't get it under control and this will prevent it from getting back to where it was.  The pension liability is staggering.

So where are you moving?

Native born NorCaler here.

Saw the boom of Silicon Valley, when it was still utilizing silicon.
Born at the end of the demolition of farmland and orchards which made Santa Clara County famous.

Success here attracts everyone.
Weather here attracts everyone.
Diversity here attracts most.

Growth went unchecked and in some areas still does.

Because of the wealth, the disparities between rich and poor are amplified.

Fortunately, CA is still inhabitable: smaller, denser properties in the cities or larger lots in the country. Commutes remain nightmares since the recovery.

Unfortunately, pushing more residents toward the country means less nature to enjoy and more urban sprawl.

"You get what you pay for" is a relative phrase.
It really should be "If you derive more pleasure than pain, then it's probably worth it."

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 22, 2014, 02:58:17 PM

Success here attracts everyone.
Weather here attracts everyone.
Diversity here attracts most.

Don't tell that to the millions that have left, including many companies like Nissan.  158 companies since Jan of 2013 alone.  254 left in 2011.  Only 59 in 2009.....anyone see a trend?

Over 4 million MORE people have left the state than have come in from other states.  AMAZING.

Chevron-Texaco now has more employees in Texas now than California....something my dad, a petroleum geologist geophysicist is probably spinning in his grave about.

When you have the CEO of Intel saying California is on the downhill, that's speaking volumes.  http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/03/intel-otellini-california-greece/     As a result, Intel chose to expand out of state, in Oregon, resulting in $8 billion moving out of the state.

Down here, movie business continues to leave because of the outrageous taxes.  So much so that now the state is trying to incentivize the movie industry to shoot in California with low taxes...wait, low taxes drives business.  Oh the irony.

A pretty good article about a year and a half ago of the exodus from the state and how it used to be.  Very sad. Article written by a US Demographer and self proclaimed Truman Democrat

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304444604577340531861056966



 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 22, 2014, 04:09:27 PM
Don't tell that to the millions that have left, including many companies like Nissan.  158 companies since Jan of 2013 alone.  254 left in 2011.  Only 59 in 2009.....anyone see a trend?
 

No - the information is meaningless because it is incomplete. How many companies came to California in those same years. Without that information, the rest doesn't tell me anything. Companies move all the time to and from many different states.

Quote from: brandx on February 22, 2014, 04:20:16 PM
No - the information is meaningless because it is incomplete. How many companies came to California in those same years. Without that information, the rest doesn't tell me anything. Companies move all the time to and from many different states.

And for different reasons.

Not to mention those started in CA and moving employees in.

CA may not be ideal for some business but it has its advantages.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on February 22, 2014, 09:09:31 PM
And for different reasons.

Not to mention those started in CA and moving employees in.

CA may not be ideal for some business but it has its advantages.

Such as?

Its employment laws are ridiculously biased towards workers.
The workers comp rates are unbelievable (a company I worked for had a 5% rate in Illinois - in California the state's fixed rate was 19% for our industry).
Environmental regulations are crazy.
Cost of living and taxes are among the highest in the U.S.

I could go on and on.  The same company I mentioned above expanded while I worked there from 7 states to all 50, and California was the absolute last one we entered, and only because we had to in order to obtain nationwide contracts.

Quote from: warriorchick on February 22, 2014, 09:19:59 PM
Such as?

Its employment laws are ridiculously biased towards workers.
The workers comp rates are unbelievable (a company I worked for had a 5% rate in Illinois - in California the state's fixed rate was 19% for our industry).
Environmental regulations are crazy.
Cost of living and taxes are among the highest in the U.S.

So you would prefer that the companies be allowed to add poisons to the air & water?

Please!    Who Wants to breath bad air or drink polluted water.? When lawmakers and beaurocrats impede the ability of companies to do honest business ,everyone suffers.
Don't forget we're called the land of Fruits and Nuts for a reason. Wacko fringe politicians passing laws that feel good but ignore the reality of us intended consequences.
Dude! People are voting with their feet.

Quote from: warriorchick on February 22, 2014, 09:19:59 PM
Such as?

Its employment laws are ridiculously biased towards workers.
The workers comp rates are unbelievable (a company I worked for had a 5% rate in Illinois - in California the state's fixed rate was 19% for our industry).
Environmental regulations are crazy.
Cost of living and taxes are among the highest in the U.S.

I could go on and on.  The same company I mentioned above expanded while I worked there from 7 states to all 50, and California was the absolute last one we entered, and only because we had to in order to obtain nationwide contracts.

Yet every new technology company wants to be there

Quote from: elephantraker on February 22, 2014, 11:33:25 PM
Please!    Who Wants to breath bad air or drink polluted water.? When lawmakers and beaurocrats impede the ability of companies to do honest business ,everyone suffers.
Don't forget we're called the land of Fruits and Nuts for a reason. Wacko fringe politicians passing laws that feel good but ignore the reality of us intended consequences.
Dude! People are voting with their feet.

Dude! People are voting with their feet. By moving to California. It's where every educated Asian immigrant wants to be. It's where every computer or electrical engineering grad wants to work, including many of my MU buddies.

Btw, the company I work for, based in the Midwest, just added several hundred jobs in California (San Diego). Our CEO obviously should have come on Scoop for consulting first  ::)

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 22, 2014, 11:59:12 PM
Dude! People are voting with their feet. By moving to California. It's where every educated Asian immigrant wants to be. It's where every computer or electrical engineering grad wants to work, including many of my MU buddies.

Facts don't bear this out as mentioned earlier in this thread. I also know of several people who recently were transferred here who moved out within a year. I just stayed with a friend, democrat, who closed his company which employed over 100 people because he got fed up with taxes and fees on his business. Police came by and charged him fees for having an alarm system, fire dept. inspected and feed him to death because of materials. City and state departments fee'ed him til he said the hell with it.

Quote from: elephantraker on February 23, 2014, 12:09:11 AM
Facts don't bear this out as mentioned earlier in this thread. I also know of several people who recently were transferred here who moved out within a year. I just stayed with a friend, democrat, who closed his company which employed over 100 people because he got fed up with taxes and fees on his business. Police came by and charged him fees for having an alarm system, fire dept. inspected and feed him to death because of materials. City and state departments fee'ed him til he said the hell with it.

Those aren't facts. They are anecdotes. There are many others to the contrary

However I am willing to admit that perhaps my perception of California is skewed towards San Francisco and Silicon Valley. Perhaps LA is not experiencing the same growth. Chicos, that is where you live, no? 

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 23, 2014, 12:01:39 AM
Btw, the company I work for, based in the Midwest, just added several hundred jobs in California (San Diego). Our CEO obviously should have come on Scoop for consulting first  ::)

Well, this is also anecdotal.  ;D

No Cal residents answered the question, where are you moving?

 ;)

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 23, 2014, 09:50:29 AM
Well, this is also anecdotal.  ;D

Indeed. But I never claimed it was anything else! I was just showing you could use anecdotes to argue either way

California is a massive state, you can find hundred of companies moving in, moving out, starting up or going out of business and it's all essentially meaningless without looking at a macro view

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 23, 2014, 12:19:08 AM
Those aren't facts. They are anecdotes. There are many others to the contrary

However I am willing to admit that perhaps my perception of California is skewed towards San Francisco and Silicon Valley. Perhaps LA is not experiencing the same growth. Chicos, that is where you live, no? 

I work in LA County, I live in Orange County.  The California "recovery" is basically an east-west divide.  The coastal cities are rebounding, the inland parts of the state struggling mightily.

The article I posted showing the millions that have left, 4 million MORE have left the state than those coming in from other states says a lot. Population in California is growing from two sources...illegal immigration and in state reproduction.  California used to be a beacon for growth from other states, it hasn't been that way in a long time.

In terms of "growth" in California.  Are you talking the unemployment report (U-3 report) or the real unemployment report (U-6)?  The unemployment reports that the media and Pols like to talk about is the one that doesn't include people that have given up finding work...that is the U-3 report.  Both sides do this, by the way, because it is convenient....it is also intellectually dishonest.  Imaging computing a free throw average for a player and removing some misses because he says he wasn't trying as hard on those shots, thus his FT average improves.  The U-6 unemployment report is the far more accurate report, and actually calculates working eligible people that aren't working...wow...like, you know, actual unemployed.

California according to the United States Labor Department in the U-6 report is at 17.3% unemployment.  Only Nevada is worse.  LA County, 19.8%.  The California unemployment report that is "official" and the media puts out there....8.9%.  Quite a difference between 8.9% and 17.3%.

http://www.bls.gov/lau/stalt.htm

Is it better now than last year...yup...slightly.  Hard not to improve on numbers that bad.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 22, 2014, 11:59:12 PM
Dude! People are voting with their feet. By moving to California. It's where every educated Asian immigrant wants to be. It's where every computer or electrical engineering grad wants to work, including many of my MU buddies.

You really should read the article I gave to you.  Far more voting with their feet LEAVING than coming.  By several factors. 

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 23, 2014, 12:01:39 AM
Btw, the company I work for, based in the Midwest, just added several hundred jobs in California (San Diego). Our CEO obviously should have come on Scoop for consulting first  ::)

:o

4 million MORE have left the state than came in from other states.  Facts be damned I guess.


I guess you missed Intel's recent decisions, Facebook, Twitter, Ebay, Oracle, Adobe, Apple, etc....all major expansions, all outside of California.

In 2011, 120 people moved out of the state for every 100 that came in. 

"According to a 2012 University of Southern California study on state demographics, you have to go back to the early 1990s to find a time when more Americans were moving to California than leaving it for other states," he writes. "Thanks to high housing prices and a weak job market, California is now a net exporter of U.S. citizens to other states."

Wonderful map here of how people leaving NY, California, Illinois, and Ohio...

(http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Migration-AGI-large-620x592.png) 

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 22, 2014, 10:39:40 AM
So where are you moving?

TBD.  We have several options.  Right now, kids situation comes first and not disrupting their lives.  The initial task was to convince my wife, now that the light went on, the rest will come into place.  Most likely a mountain time zone state, though Oregon, Texas are in the mix.

(http://madashelland.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/CaliLeaving.jpg)

(http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-Graphics/CaliforniaLeavingInOut.jpg)

(http://savingusmanufacturing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Calif.-Job-Loss-Chart.png)

(http://www.newgeography.com/files/watkins-CAhurt-1.png)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 23, 2014, 11:46:29 AM
:o

4 million MORE have left the state than came in from other states.  Facts be damned I guess.


I guess you missed Intel's recent decisions, Facebook, Twitter, Ebay, Oracle, Adobe, Apple, etc....all major expansions, all outside of California.

In 2011, 120 people moved out of the state for every 100 that came in. 

"According to a 2012 University of Southern California study on state demographics, you have to go back to the early 1990s to find a time when more Americans were moving to California than leaving it for other states," he writes. "Thanks to high housing prices and a weak job market, California is now a net exporter of U.S. citizens to other states."

Many of you here were blaming the changes on politics, the reality is that California was a classical bubble.  People flocking to the region because of the beautiful weather and diverse landscape.  Companies flocking to the area, because of the ample source of venture capital money in close proximity to large research centers (Caltech, Stanford, Berkeley, Scripps etc.)  This led to an unnatural influx of people to a state without the natural resources (water) to support them (hence new laws).

Rapid overpopulation leads to speculation and large increases in housing prices.  Higher cost of living necessitates higher pay.  Eventually like any bubble it reaches a breaking point, costs are too high to offset benefits and people will leave.  

The whole system regardless of politics was unsustainable.  Other research centers (besides California and Boston) started to do a better job of getting local venture capital money to invest locally.  They took the California model and did it at home in places like Texas (Austin and Dallas), Washington (Seattle), NC (research triangle park) etc.

Just another reason....when "life in prison" means sort of.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/24816456/california-lifers-leaving-prison-at-record-pace

Quote from: forgetful on February 23, 2014, 12:04:16 PM
Many of you here were blaming the changes on politics, the reality is that California was a classical bubble.  People flocking to the region because of the beautiful weather and diverse landscape.  Companies flocking to the area, because of the ample source of venture capital money in close proximity to large research centers (Caltech, Stanford, Berkeley, Scripps etc.)  This led to an unnatural influx of people to a state without the natural resources (water) to support them (hence new laws).

Rapid overpopulation leads to speculation and large increases in housing prices.  Higher cost of living necessitates higher pay.  Eventually like any bubble it reaches a breaking point, costs are too high to offset benefits and people will leave.  

The whole system regardless of politics was unsustainable.  Other research centers (besides California and Boston) started to do a better job of getting local venture capital money to invest locally.  They took the California model and did it at home in places like Texas (Austin and Dallas), Washington (Seattle), NC (research triangle park) etc.

+1000

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 25, 2014, 07:43:19 PM
Just another reason....when "life in prison" means sort of.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/24816456/california-lifers-leaving-prison-at-record-pace

I'm assuming you think this is a good thing considering your views on gov't spending. Check the cost per inmate/per year sometime.

Of the 860 murderers paroled between 1990 and 2010 that Stanford tracked, only five inmates committed new crimes and none were convicted of murder.

Your state gov't is saving you a lot of money here.

Quote from: brandx on February 25, 2014, 08:31:34 PM
I'm assuming you think this is a good thing considering your views on gov't spending. Check the cost per inmate/per year sometime.

Of the 860 murderers paroled between 1990 and 2010 that Stanford tracked, only five inmates committed new crimes and none were convicted of murder.

Your state gov't is saving you a lot of money here.

Nice try, not all gov't spending is bad, as I said military spending I have much less of a problem with.  Releasing lifers, yup I have a problem with that.  I'd prefer quicker exterminations...that would also save money.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 25, 2014, 09:53:15 PM
Nice try, not all gov't spending is bad, as I said military spending I have much less of a problem with.  Releasing lifers, yup I have a problem with that.  I'd prefer quicker exterminations...that would also save money.

I always trusted you and now I find out you you were just playin' me ;D

I saw an ad today where repubs are attacking dems for wanting to cut SS. Come on Chicos, who can I trust ?-(

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 25, 2014, 09:53:15 PM
I'd prefer quicker exterminations...that would also save money.

That people can graduate from a Jesuit university and make comments like this (even if tongue in cheek) always amazes me. Not exactly something the current pope would endorse.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 25, 2014, 09:53:15 PM
Nice try, not all gov't spending is bad, as I said military spending I have much less of a problem with.  Releasing lifers, yup I have a problem with that.  I'd prefer quicker exterminations...that would also save money.

It is actually far more expensive for state sanctioned murder.  Plus our justice system makes too many mistakes for us to be so quick to take life.

I just wish enough people would leave San Diego so I can afford that retirement home someday....  ;D  I know that won't be happening, however.  The weather is just too nice.

It will be interesting to see how traffic is in LA in 20 years.  With the technology coming up and with CA being the likely first adopter on a big scale, I bet traffic gets better.  God willing, the nerd wanna be in me looks forward to seeing how that plays out.

Quote from: forgetful on February 23, 2014, 12:04:16 PM
Many of you here were blaming the changes on politics, the reality is that California was a classical bubble.  People flocking to the region because of the beautiful weather and diverse landscape.  Companies flocking to the area, because of the ample source of venture capital money in close proximity to large research centers (Caltech, Stanford, Berkeley, Scripps etc.)  This led to an unnatural influx of people to a state without the natural resources (water) to support them (hence new laws).

Rapid overpopulation leads to speculation and large increases in housing prices.  Higher cost of living necessitates higher pay.  Eventually like any bubble it reaches a breaking point, costs are too high to offset benefits and people will leave.  

The whole system regardless of politics was unsustainable.  Other research centers (besides California and Boston) started to do a better job of getting local venture capital money to invest locally.  They took the California model and did it at home in places like Texas (Austin and Dallas), Washington (Seattle), NC (research triangle park) etc.

I'm sure there is truth to much of this.  We can't ignore that massive number of people and businesses that have left for reasons that are due to decisions around taxation, various regulatory policies, etc.  It is cited by people flocking out of state all the time. 

Quote from: brandx on February 25, 2014, 10:30:09 PM
I always trusted you and now I find out you you were just playin' me ;D

I saw an ad today where repubs are attacking dems for wanting to cut SS. Come on Chicos, who can I trust ?-(

Stay away from those ads, both parties suck hairy cats.  Next thing you know one party will claim the other wants to start a nuclear war or will show grandma being pushed over a cliff in a wheel chair. 

Not playing with you Brand....I'm all for the right kind of expenditures and the right kind of taxes.  I certainly pay my fair share and that of many others that don't pay it at all....they are welcome.  I don't like it when we pay people not to work, pay farmers not to grow, etc.  It is counter productive.

http://variety.com/2014/film/news/even-films-set-in-california-are-shooting-elsewhere-to-save-money-1201125523/

Nissan left in the last decade, Toyota announced on Monday

We never learn. 


http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2014/04/27/it-makes-sense-for-toyota-to-leave-california-for-texas/

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 01:26:05 PM
Nissan left in the last decade, Toyota announced on Monday

We never learn.  


http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2014/04/27/it-makes-sense-for-toyota-to-leave-california-for-texas/

Governor Rick used $40 million of tax payer dollars to bribe Toyota away from CA.   What's your take on that?   Honest question.

Quote from: reinko on April 29, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Governor Rick used $40 million of tax payer dollars to bribe Toyota away from CA.   What's your take on that?   Honest question.

Just the invisible hand of the government giving big business a reach-around. Pure capitalism. Totally fine when a R does it, cuz he did the right thing paying lip service to tax cuts and "freedom." Nothing to see here.

Quote from: Jajuannaman on April 29, 2014, 02:19:34 PM
Just the invisible hand of the government giving big business a reach-around. Pure capitalism. Totally fine when a R does it, cuz he did the right thing paying lip service to tax cuts and "freedom." Nothing to see here.

(http://beerlake.net/dump/tng-in-before-lock.gif)

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 22, 2014, 11:59:12 PM
It's where every educated Asian immigrant wants to be. It's where every computer or electrical engineering grad wants to work

Uh, ever been to Redmond or Bellevue?

Quote from: reinko on April 29, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
Governor Rick used $40 million of tax payer dollars to bribe Toyota away from CA.   What's your take on that?   Honest question.

I'd call that a tremendous ROI and getting off cheap.  That $40M to bring all those folks to Texas who will buy homes, drive property taxes, spend money into the economy, build a manufacturing base which will drive more jobs.  Think about it in these terms, is $40M of money to Toyota to come to Texas vs $500M to a solar company that is out of business within 3 years?  I have no problem with gov't aiding business, I'm not opposed to taxation, either, what I am opposed to giving dollars out for pet projects or to politically connected folks as thank yous, but both sides do it.


In our state, we continue to tax these guys to death and they leave...massive brain drain, good jobs, etc.  Been going on for years but they don't care...they point to Silicon Valley and Hollywood as beacons of light. Manufacturing is evil for some people here, it is truly an amazing thing to see.  At some point I anticipate the adults will arrive, but I'm worried that too many of them have left along with the high paying jobs.  But hey, unemployment is coming down here, because we've landed a bunch of $9 food service gigs.   ::)   It's going to be interesting to see if Kia, Mazda, Hyundai, and others follow suit.  Isuzu pulled up a few years ago, Nissan took everything to Tennessee.  Sad, but as the mayor of Torrance said today "doing business in this state is very difficult".  A number of people here impacted because their spouses work for Toyota.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 02:56:53 PM
I'd call that a tremendous ROI and getting off cheap.  That $40M to bring all those folks to Texas who will buy homes, drive property taxes, spend money into the economy, build a manufacturing base which will drive more jobs.  Think about it in these terms, is $40M of money to Toyota to come to Texas vs $500M to a solar company that is out of business within 3 years?  I have no problem with gov't aiding business, I'm not opposed to taxation, either, what I am opposed to giving dollars out for pet projects or to politically connected folks as thank yous, but both sides do it.


In our state, we continue to tax these guys to death and they leave...massive brain drain, good jobs, etc.  Been going on for years but they don't care...they point to Silicon Valley and Hollywood as beacons of light. Manufacturing is evil for some people here, it is truly an amazing thing to see.  At some point I anticipate the adults will arrive, but I'm worried that too many of them have left along with the high paying jobs.  But hey, unemployment is coming down here, because we've landed a bunch of $9 food service gigs.   ::)   It's going to be interesting to see if Kia, Mazda, Hyundai, and others follow suit.  Isuzu pulled up a few years ago, Nissan took everything to Tennessee.  Sad, but as the mayor of Torrance said today "doing business in this state is very difficult".  A number of people here impacted because their spouses work for Toyota.

And the biggest plus for you is that this welfare is going to the rich.

Quote from: Jajuannaman on April 29, 2014, 02:19:34 PM
Just the invisible hand of the government giving big business a reach-around. Pure capitalism. Totally fine when a R does it, cuz he did the right thing paying lip service to tax cuts and "freedom." Nothing to see here.

I'm not a R or a D, thank God.  Feel free to check my voter registration if you wish.

Actually what I'm all for is a company being able to do what is in their best interests, and if the location they are doing business in makes it so onerous with taxation, regulation, etc and they feel they need to leave, then they should.  If an enterprising state, city, etc, wants to bring them there and IT MAKES SENSE TO DO SO, I'm absolutely for it.  Please make note of that last sentence....MAKES SENSE TO DO SO.  This doesn't mean spending $400M on a stadium with an upside down ROI.  Spending $40M to get a Fortune 50 company to move to my state....$40M...I almost think that is a typo it is so absurdly low.

So its case by case JJ man.  $500M for Solyandra...$40M for Toyota...I don't think this is really that hard and I certainly don't give a rip who is doing it, as long as they are making the right decisions with data to back it up.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 03:15:18 PM
I'm not a R or a D, thank God.  Feel free to check my voter registration if you wish.

Actually what I'm all for is a company being able to do what is in their best interests, and if the location they are doing business in makes it so onerous with taxation, regulation, etc and they feel they need to leave, then they should.  If an enterprising state, city, etc, wants to bring them there and IT MAKES SENSE TO DO SO, I'm absolutely for it.  Please make note of that last sentence....MAKES SENSE TO DO SO.  This doesn't mean spending $400M on a stadium with an upside down ROI.  Spending $40M to get a Fortune 50 company to move to my state....$40M...I almost think that is a typo it is so absurdly low.

So its case by case JJ man.  $500M for Solyandra...$40M for Toyota...I don't think this is really that hard and I certainly don't give a rip who is doing it, as long as they are making the right decisions with data to back it up.

Should Milwaukee taxpayers help pay for a new arena? Lots of $$$, jobs, tax income from all these millionaires "working" in Wisconsin, world recognition being home to a franchise in the world's 2nd most popular sport, etc.

Maybe I misread your opinion on that, but I thought you said you were against it.

As far as not being an R or D - that is meaningless. I am not either. I am an avowed liberal which basically equates to being a D since there are usually only 2 options.

Quote from: brandx on April 29, 2014, 03:08:07 PM
And the biggest plus for you is that this welfare is going to the rich.

::)  The irony in your statement is California's approach to all of this hurts the middle class and poor.  There are two sides to this coin.

You can make this a class warfare argument all you want until the cows come home.   The people of Texas, rich, poor, middle income will benefit.   The people of California, rich, poor, middle income take a hit, again. 

At some point people have to understand basic business, and it is clear to me by comments made here by many posters, certainly state officials, etc, that folks just don't get it.  Its as if they never took a basic business class in their life.  It costs MONEY to run a business, and part of those costs include taxation of many kinds.  Also the pool of labor, how easy is it to attract qualified people based on how much it costs to also live in your locale.

Toyota will have ZERO trouble attracting very high level people in Texas or those wanting to move to Texas where they will pay NO STATE INCOME TAXES, will be able to buy a 4,000 square foot house for $350K, and moving into a state that is booming.  Zero trouble. 

The saddest part, I guarantee you there are some folks in the CA Assembly cheering and high fiving this happened.  An evil corporation is leaving, and one that makes products that they don't like.  Bizarro world, but guarantee that is happening with a select group.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 03:23:02 PM
::)  The irony in your statement is California's approach to all of this hurts the middle class and poor.  There are two sides to this coin.

You can make this a class warfare argument all you want until the cows come home.   The people of Texas, rich, poor, middle income will benefit.   The people of California, rich, poor, middle income take a hit, again. 

At some point people have to understand basic business, and it is clear to me by comments made here by many posters, certainly state officials, etc, that folks just don't get it.  Its as if they never took a basic business class in their life.  It costs MONEY to run a business, and part of those costs include taxation of many kinds.  Also the pool of labor, how easy is it to attract qualified people based on how much it costs to also live in your locale.

Toyota will have ZERO trouble attracting very high level people in Texas or those wanting to move to Texas where they will pay NO STATE INCOME TAXES, will be able to buy a 4,000 square foot house for $350K, and moving into a state that is booming.  Zero trouble. 

The saddest part, I guarantee you there are some folks in the CA Assembly cheering and high fiving this happened.  An evil corporation is leaving, and one that makes products that they don't like.  Bizarro world, but guarantee that is happening with a select group.

+1000000000000000

Quote from: warriorchick on April 29, 2014, 03:27:33 PM

+1000000000000000

we need a comma rule for numbers like this

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 02:56:53 PM
I'd call that a tremendous ROI and getting off cheap.  That $40M to bring all those folks to Texas who will buy homes, drive property taxes, spend money into the economy, build a manufacturing base which will drive more jobs.  Think about it in these terms, is $40M of money to Toyota to come to Texas vs $500M to a solar company that is out of business within 3 years?  I have no problem with gov't aiding business, I'm not opposed to taxation, either, what I am opposed to giving dollars out for pet projects or to politically connected folks as thank yous, but both sides do it.


In our state, we continue to tax these guys to death and they leave...massive brain drain, good jobs, etc.  Been going on for years but they don't care...they point to Silicon Valley and Hollywood as beacons of light. Manufacturing is evil for some people here, it is truly an amazing thing to see.  At some point I anticipate the adults will arrive, but I'm worried that too many of them have left along with the high paying jobs.  But hey, unemployment is coming down here, because we've landed a bunch of $9 food service gigs.   ::)   It's going to be interesting to see if Kia, Mazda, Hyundai, and others follow suit.  Isuzu pulled up a few years ago, Nissan took everything to Tennessee.  Sad, but as the mayor of Torrance said today "doing business in this state is very difficult".  A number of people here impacted because their spouses work for Toyota.

Mr.  Nolan put it best.

These sorts of corporate welfare programs—that use public money in the form of tax breaks and financial incentives to lure businesses from one state to another—sound good, if you pretend that only your state matters, and furthermore, that your state is at war with all of the other states in America, and that you can only win by cannibalizing the resources of another state. If you see America as a nation, though, it quickly becomes clear that these programs are counterproductive and downright idiotic. Here is what the United States of America as a whole has gotten with this deal, which is typical of countless others of this nature:

California (-3,000 jobs) + Kentucky (-1,000 jobs) + Texas (+4,000 jobs)= 0 net jobs.

Financial cost to the public: -$40 million.
So our nation as a whole, thanks to politicians like Rick Perry, has gained zero jobs at a cost of $40 million. Great patriotic financial management there, you swaggering moron. If our federal government was rational it would ban these sorts of state vs. state corporate giveaways, because they only benefit one state at the expense of another state, and they cost public money, so on the whole they represent nothing more than a transfer of public funds into the pockets of corporations. If companies have actual compelling business reasons for moving their operations to a different state, they will do so even without public subsidies; if they don't have an actual compelling business reason to move their operations to a different state, then paying them public money to do so is the opposite of "efficiency" or "common sense." It is a desperate move by suckers (us).

Quote from: brandx on April 29, 2014, 03:22:48 PM
Should Milwaukee taxpayers help pay for a new arena? Lots of $$$, jobs, tax income from all these millionaires "working" in Wisconsin, world recognition being home to a franchise in the world's 2nd most popular sport, etc.

Maybe I misread your opinion on that, but I thought you said you were against it.

As far as not being an R or D - that is meaningless. I am not either. I am an avowed liberal which basically equates to being a D since there are usually only 2 options.

In reverse order, I don't agree at all.  Ralph Nader is a liberal, today he called for Obama's impeachment. Is he a Dem?  Not on your life. Many examples like that.  I'm not a big government fan for many things, doesn't mean I hate gov't, nor does it mean I don't want gov't, but they are inefficient as hell and crooked as the day is long.  Does that make me an R?  Or more libertarian (not Libertarian, but libertarian).  I can tell you I'm no R, but like R's, much of the stuff on the other side rubs me wrong, but usually for different reasons.

On the arena, I answered that earlier.  All depends on the ROI.  If the city needs to spend $400M for a new arena, what's the ROI?  I guarantee you it isn't as good as $40M to bring Toyota over.  I've been on record many times on arena funding, it's a local issue, put it up for the vote of the citizens and present why they should or shouldn't vote for it.  What is the ROI, what is the accountability if the ROI turns out to be complete BS, etc.  I'm not against it, I want the data and the consequences if they are wrong.

Quote from: Jajuannaman on April 29, 2014, 02:19:34 PM
Just the invisible hand of the government giving big business a reach-around. Pure capitalism. Totally fine when a R does it, cuz he did the right thing paying lip service to tax cuts and "freedom." Nothing to see here.

This is how you do it....note the requirements.  Wow, common sense and money well spent

http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/texas-enterprise-fund-will-grant-40-million-to-toyota.html/

"Don't Mess with Texas"      The well paid people from Toyota can escape the Summer heat by vacationing in California while being  served by minimum wage Californios.

Quote from: reinko on April 29, 2014, 03:42:18 PM
Mr.  Nolan put it best.

These sorts of corporate welfare programs—that use public money in the form of tax breaks and financial incentives to lure businesses from one state to another—sound good, if you pretend that only your state matters, and furthermore, that your state is at war with all of the other states in America, and that you can only win by cannibalizing the resources of another state. If you see America as a nation, though, it quickly becomes clear that these programs are counterproductive and downright idiotic. Here is what the United States of America as a whole has gotten with this deal, which is typical of countless others of this nature:

California (-3,000 jobs) + Kentucky (-1,000 jobs) + Texas (+4,000 jobs)= 0 net jobs.

Financial cost to the public: -$40 million.
So our nation as a whole, thanks to politicians like Rick Perry, has gained zero jobs at a cost of $40 million. Great patriotic financial management there, you swaggering moron. If our federal government was rational it would ban these sorts of state vs. state corporate giveaways, because they only benefit one state at the expense of another state, and they cost public money, so on the whole they represent nothing more than a transfer of public funds into the pockets of corporations. If companies have actual compelling business reasons for moving their operations to a different state, they will do so even without public subsidies; if they don't have an actual compelling business reason to move their operations to a different state, then paying them public money to do so is the opposite of "efficiency" or "common sense." It is a desperate move by suckers (us).

That math is not accurate at all.  Toyota is building a $300M headquarters from scratch in Plano, that will generate a lot of jobs and more importantly, a 365 day a year facility that drives growth, revenues, taxes, etc (unlike an arena as an example that does some of that, but also gives away a ton of revenue to the tenants).  

Sorry, I think the argument that Mr. Nolan or whomever just made is, to put it mildly, absurd.  Taxation is a true cost and an impediment to business and growth.  It sounds like Mr. Nolan doesn't want to acknowledge this.  What's more absurd, some of the same high tax states and counties are throwing tax breaks around like crazy (ahem...Los Angeles) to incent certain businesses to do more in the area (films and commercials)....a bit of irony knowing that they are throwing those tax incentives around to keep business but that same ideological group is upset that Toyota is leaving.  

To buy in this perverted logic, companies shouldn't offer more money to lure certain people to switch jobs and work for them.  Or baseball teams shouldn't bid on players in free agency.  It's competition.  Texas had something to offer, California is an oppressive tax state, Toyota walked...just like so many others have before them.  Why should Toyota or anyone else be subject to a lesser deal because the state they are located in is so whacked out of control, so out of touch with business, has no problems spending money on the ridiculous of the ridiculous?  Good for Toyota.

The quotes from today are fun or sad.   ::)


"I'm not surprised to see that it occurred, for all of the usual reasons," said Joe Vranich, a corporate relocation consultant in Irvine. He said corporate clients often complain about "Sacramento's propensity to tax business some more, some more and some more."

At an appearance Monday in Lancaster, where a Chinese manufacturer is building electric buses, Brown acknowledged the high cost of doing business in California but said it's worth it. "We've got a few problems, we have lots of little burdens and regulations and taxes, but smart people figure out how to make it," he said, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 03:15:18 PM
I'm not a R or a D, thank God.  Feel free to check my voter registration if you wish.

Actually what I'm all for is a company being able to do what is in their best interests, and if the location they are doing business in makes it so onerous with taxation, regulation, etc and they feel they need to leave, then they should.  If an enterprising state, city, etc, wants to bring them there and IT MAKES SENSE TO DO SO, I'm absolutely for it.  Please make note of that last sentence....MAKES SENSE TO DO SO.  This doesn't mean spending $400M on a stadium with an upside down ROI.  Spending $40M to get a Fortune 50 company to move to my state....$40M...I almost think that is a typo it is so absurdly low.

So its case by case JJ man.  $500M for Solyandra...$40M for Toyota...I don't think this is really that hard and I certainly don't give a rip who is doing it, as long as they are making the right decisions with data to back it up.

I think corporate tax rates should be 0% and I'm dead serious. Just calling out "hypocrisy" where I see it. TTFN!

Quote from: Jajuannaman on April 29, 2014, 06:31:59 PM
I think corporate tax rates should be 0% and I'm dead serious. Just calling out "hypocrisy" where I see it. TTFN!

As a crazy liberal, I am on board with that -- as long as not one single penny of our tax dollars was ever given to these corporations, including building infrastructure for them as we regularly.

We don't make  taxpayers pay for roads for oil, lumber and mining companies or for new Business Park complexes. We also make them pay market value for land for these activities, etc. No corporate taxes + no giveaways to corporations, period. If they can't make it on their own, bar the doors.

Unfortunately, corporations would never go for paying their own way without gov't welfare.

I came to CA in 1985 to settle in Newport Beach as a very young guy with a family.  The SoCal experience was electric with opportunity.  I mean anything goes to improve your families well being.  Then in the 1991 time frame the twin booms of defense spending collapsing as the Cold War ended then the savings and loan collapse hammered many SoCal banks.  Massive job losses ensued and the place never really recovered. 

NorCal did well because of computer related businesses but gang that mostly benefited Hindus from India.  Locals just couldn't compete and try to find a US minority in NorCal high tech. 

Politicos went for graft as we've seen with 10% of democrats in the state senate either under indictment or conviction of felonies. 

Then you have the coastal counties stead fast against the agricultural interior.  The place is too big for one state.  A break up isn't half bad. 

Quote from: brandx on April 29, 2014, 06:53:11 PM
As a crazy liberal, I am on board with that -- as long as not one single penny of our tax dollars was ever given to these corporations, including building infrastructure for them as we regularly.

We don't make  taxpayers pay for roads for oil, lumber and mining companies or for new Business Park complexes. We also make them pay market value for land for these activities, etc. No corporate taxes + no giveaways to corporations, period. If they can't make it on their own, bar the doors.

Unfortunately, corporations would never go for paying their own way without gov't welfare.

Totes agree. Corporations should also not have rights as people.

Quote from: Jajuannaman on April 29, 2014, 07:16:33 PM
Totes agree. Corporations should also not have rights as people.

Then you must be in favor of high unemployment in the USA.  THE US already imposes some of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.  Strip the remaining benefits and you'll see US corporations abandon the US for other countries.  What you are demanding is that corporations don't benefit from the Bill of Rights.  Ok they walk to were they have a voice.  Your children and mine will suffer as a result.  Already corporations offshore trillions to avoid punitive US taxes.  Great for the Swiss, Brits, Russians, Chinese, etc.  Not so much for joe blow American.

Quote from: MUBillsTil2017 on April 29, 2014, 07:37:52 PM
Then you must be in favor of high unemployment in the USA.  THE US already imposes some of the highest corporate tax rates in the world.  Strip the remaining benefits and you'll see US corporations abandon the US for other countries.  What you are demanding is that corporations don't benefit from the Bill of Rights.  Ok they walk to were they have a voice.  Your children and mine will suffer as a result.  Already corporations offshore trillions to avoid punitive US taxes.  Great for the Swiss, Brits, Russians, Chinese, etc.  Not so much for joe blow American.

You may have read me wrong. I am in favor of 0% corporate tax rates in the U.S.

I can be persuaded that corporate tax rates should be close to zero, same for individuals but the idea of corporations as a individual is embedded in our tax code, election laws, libel laws, criminal laws.  We are a different country if you strip corporate rights as people.  If I misread you, a thousand apologies. 

Quote from: brandx on April 29, 2014, 06:53:11 PM
As a crazy liberal, I am on board with that -- as long as not one single penny of our tax dollars was ever given to these corporations, including building infrastructure for them as we regularly.

We don't make  taxpayers pay for roads for oil, lumber and mining companies or for new Business Park complexes. We also make them pay market value for land for these activities, etc. No corporate taxes + no giveaways to corporations, period. If they can't make it on their own, bar the doors.

Unfortunately, corporations would never go for paying their own way without gov't welfare.

That goes both ways.  Corporations are hiring workers that pay taxes, lots of them. 

How much of that infrastructure is built for duel purposes?  Almost all of it.  Plenty of corporations pay their own way...registration of a commercial vehicle here in California is through the roof.  California gas tax, highest in the nation...goes to pay for roads.  So on and so forth.  There are fees, permits, other taxes, etc, that corporations (and individuals) pay that go to offset infrastructure costs.

For me, I would not support $0 corporate tax.  There is a cost of doing business, taxes is one of them.  To me taxes are fine, as long as they make good policy sense.  People and corps need to understand taxes often go for things like infrastructure, policing, etc....it is when they go for other things or are egregious that drive people and corps away.  Everyone should be paying some taxes, they should know what they are getting for it.

Quote from: MUBillsTil2017 on April 29, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
I can be persuaded that corporate tax rates should be close to zero, same for individuals but the idea of corporations as a individual is embedded in our tax code, election laws, libel laws, criminal laws.  We are a different country if you strip corporate rights as people.  If I misread you, a thousand apologies. 

Wow ?-(

Quote from: reinko on April 29, 2014, 03:42:18 PM


California (-3,000 jobs) + Kentucky (-1,000 jobs) + Texas (+4,000 jobs)= 0 net jobs.

Not true. Movers, cleaners, realtors, maids and front desk people at Marriotts in New Mexico, waitresses in greasy spoons and the guy who fills the Slurpee machines at gas stations along I 10 and I 20 all see an uptick in traffic.

Quote from: reinko on April 29, 2014, 03:42:18 PM
Mr.  Nolan put it best.

These sorts of corporate welfare programs—that use public money in the form of tax breaks and financial incentives to lure businesses from one state to another—sound good, if you pretend that only your state matters, and furthermore, that your state is at war with all of the other states in America, and that you can only win by cannibalizing the resources of another state. If you see America as a nation, though, it quickly becomes clear that these programs are counterproductive and downright idiotic. Here is what the United States of America as a whole has gotten with this deal, which is typical of countless others of this nature:

California (-3,000 jobs) + Kentucky (-1,000 jobs) + Texas (+4,000 jobs)= 0 net jobs.

Financial cost to the public: -$40 million.
So our nation as a whole, thanks to politicians like Rick Perry, has gained zero jobs at a cost of $40 million. Great patriotic financial management there, you swaggering moron. If our federal government was rational it would ban these sorts of state vs. state corporate giveaways, because they only benefit one state at the expense of another state, and they cost public money, so on the whole they represent nothing more than a transfer of public funds into the pockets of corporations. If companies have actual compelling business reasons for moving their operations to a different state, they will do so even without public subsidies; if they don't have an actual compelling business reason to move their operations to a different state, then paying them public money to do so is the opposite of "efficiency" or "common sense." It is a desperate move by suckers (us).

Plus unnatural carnal knowledgeing One. Couldn't have said it annnnnnnnnnny better.

Here in 2014, federalism is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

We're supposed to be competing with the BRIC nations, not engaged in hand-to-hand combat with increasingly homogenous, arbitrarily defined "states" within our country.

What's the point of separate states anymore?  

Quote from: MUBillsTil2017 on April 29, 2014, 07:54:29 PM
I can be persuaded that corporate tax rates should be close to zero, same for individuals but the idea of corporations as a individual is embedded in our tax code, election laws, libel laws, criminal laws.  We are a different country if you strip corporate rights as people.  If I misread you, a thousand apologies. 

Yup, been almost 200 years.  1819 was the first time the Supreme Court confirmed that corporate rights existed in the same manner as a natural person.  It's essential to commerce as well.  Without it, contractual agreements couldn't be implemented between two corporate entities, or a persona and a corporation. 

Dartmouth vs Woodward.

Stems from the 14th amendment.  Folks don't like it, well....get a constitutional convention going and change the constitution.  It's there for a reason and has served the country well.

Quote from: Marquette Gyros on April 29, 2014, 11:13:19 PM

Plus unnatural carnal knowledgeing One. Couldn't have said it annnnnnnnnnny better.

Here in 2014, federalism is becoming increasingly irrelevant.

We're supposed to be competing with the BRIC nations, not engaged in hand-to-hand combat with increasingly homogenous, arbitrarily defined "states" within our country.

What's the point of separate states anymore?  

If company X wants to pay me $1.5M to come work for them and as a result I can help deliver $100M in incremental revenue to them, would you consider that a good trade off?

If a state wants to offer a company money to move their location, and the state is paid back that sum many times over with new jobs, tax paying employees, etc, etc, how is that a bad thing?

A company should have the right to sell its wares and conduct commerce.  If one state is willing to make that company a lot more competitive in exchange for them moving to that state, it is in the best interests of that company to at least look at the option and decide if it is worth it.  Maybe at the end of the day it will cause the other state to finally do a gut check, look in the mirror and ask some serious questions. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 11:30:58 PM
If company X wants to pay me $1.5M to come work for them and as a result I can help deliver $100M in incremental revenue to them, would you consider that a good trade off?

If a state wants to offer a company money to move their location, and the state is paid back that sum many times over with new jobs, tax paying employees, etc, etc, how is that a bad thing?

A company should have the right to sell its wares and conduct commerce.  If one state is willing to make that company a lot more competitive in exchange for them moving to that state, it is in the best interests of that company to at least look at the option and decide if it is worth it.  Maybe at the end of the day it will cause the other state to finally do a gut check, look in the mirror and ask some serious questions. 

That's a great trade off. But you missed my point.

Perhaps as a country, we need to do a gut check, look in the mirror, and ask some serious questions.

Like: instead of encouraging states to fight a zero-sum battle over corporate headquarters, how do we make our country more competitive, and more friendly to business?

Instead of inhibiting interstate commerce and the free flow of people between states, why don't we make it easier for those who choose to relocate from state to state?

Why don't we let the free market reign and ask organizations to locate themselves in the geographies that make the most sense for their businesses, vs. the state that offers the most generous tax breaks?

I know it's a radical opinion, but this state vs. state competition isn't doing our nation any good. Sure, the structure supports hundreds of thousands of horseshit jobs to enforce policy differences and prop up a dated construct of government, but when do we ask ourselves what the fracking point of continuing to enable this waste-of-time layer of government is?

What's the difference between Wisconsin & Minnesota, or North Carolina and Georgia, or California and New York, for that matter?

I did miss it, thank you for clarifying.

Quote from: Marquette Gyros on April 29, 2014, 11:44:27 PM
That's a great trade off. But you missed my point.

Perhaps as a country, we need to do a gut check, look in the mirror, and ask some serious questions.

Like: instead of encouraging states to fight a zero-sum battle over corporate headquarters, how do we make our country more competitive, and more friendly to business?

Instead of inhibiting interstate commerce and the free flow of people between states, why don't we make it easier for those who choose to relocate from state to state?

Why don't we let the free market reign and ask organizations to locate themselves in the geographies that make the most sense for their businesses, vs. the state that offers the most generous tax breaks?

I know it's a radical opinion, but this state vs. state competition isn't doing our nation any good. Sure, the structure supports hundreds of thousands of horsecrap jobs to enforce policy differences and prop up a dated construct of government, but when do we ask ourselves what the fracking point of continuing to enable this waste-of-time layer of government is?

What's the difference between Wisconsin & Minnesota, or North Carolina and Georgia, or California and New York, for that matter?

I don't disagree with you. But federalism is a foundational philosophy of our country. States rights are a treasured feature of our governmental structures. It allows for experimentation, "laboratories of democracy."

Now, as you mention, it also does result in inefficiencies, as states battle eachother, while the nation as a whole loses to other more unified countries, such as China.

But that model is what got us here, and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

Quote from: warriorchick on February 21, 2014, 07:04:24 PM
I thought I had heard it all about California until we met a couple while on a cruise of the BVIs who were very well-off arborists.  Apparently in California (or at least where they lived in the San Jose area) you have to get government permission to cut down a tree on your own property.  And said tree basically has to be completely dead or your request will be denied.  This couple made a crapload of money because they were among the few that know how to navigate the reams of bureaucratic paperwork.

This is not just a California thing.  I'm pretty sure it's an individual city or town's decision, because I know it exists in parts of other states where I have lived (but then was different for people 30 minutes away.)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 11:30:58 PM
If a state wants to offer a company money to move their location, and the state is paid back that sum many times over with new jobs, tax paying employees, etc, etc, how is that a bad thing?

A company should have the right to sell its wares and conduct commerce.  If one state is willing to make that company a lot more competitive in exchange for them moving to that state, it is in the best interests of that company to at least look at the option and decide if it is worth it.  Maybe at the end of the day it will cause the other state to finally do a gut check, look in the mirror and ask some serious questions. 

In Connecticut, our current governor has been doing this.  He got a large biotech company to move here as the state is building them a large headquarters and research building at the UConn Health Center.  He was criticized for spending the money to do it, but I think his quote was spot on (approximately) "I hate spending state money like this, but all states do this and if we want these jobs we have to do it also." 

He also has given state money to ESPN, NBC Sports (to move here), Alexion Pharmaceuticals, UTC Corporate and their companies Pratt & Whitney and Sikorsky and others with the promise they will grow jobs.  He was further criticized by some and he said "We have to shore up we have here, so they don't consider leaving."


And the interesting thing on the Toyota move, is they are closing shop in Kentucky, a state with a low cost reputation and were moving some of the jobs to Michigan.  It goes to show there is savings in consolidation and just because it's in a "lower-cost" area doesn't mean there is lower cost.  It matches the ROI calculations I used to do at an employer that looked at manufacturing in various locations.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 08:00:27 PM
How much of that infrastructure is built for duel purposes?  Almost all of it.  Plenty of corporations pay their own way...registration of a commercial vehicle here in California is through the roof.  California gas tax, highest in the nation...goes to pay for roads.  So on and so forth.  There are fees, permits, other taxes, etc, that corporations (and individuals) pay that go to offset infrastructure costs.

The vast majority of infrastructure is paid from Federal dollars raised strictly via the Federal gas tax. The states pay a fraction of the costs which is funded various ways depending on the state. Nearly all Interstate trucking companies play the game of registering their trucks/trailers in the cheapest state for registration fees. for instance in CA an 18 wheeler can cost $1673/year where some states are less that $200. The poor owner-operator picking up intermodal trailers at the Ports of LA-Long Beach wouldn't have that option the Schneiders and Hunt Trans. big boys do.

Quote from: Tyrion on April 30, 2014, 10:24:46 AM
The vast majority of infrastructure is paid from Federal dollars raised strictly via the Federal gas tax. The states pay a fraction of the costs which is funded various ways depending on the state. Nearly all Interstate trucking companies play the game of registering their trucks/trailers in the cheapest state for registration fees. for instance in CA an 18 wheeler can cost $1673/year where some states are less that $200. The poor owner-operator picking up intermodal trailers at the Ports of LA-Long Beach wouldn't have that option the Schneiders and Hunt Trans. big boys do.

Your example is apparently a timely one:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/white-house-opens-door-to-tolls-on-interstate-highways-removing-long-standing-prohibition/2014/04/29/5d2b9f30-cfac-11e3-b812-0c92213941f4_story.html

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2014, 11:25:38 PM
Yup, been almost 200 years.  1819 was the first time the Supreme Court confirmed that corporate rights existed in the same manner as a natural person.  It's essential to commerce as well.  Without it, contractual agreements couldn't be implemented between two corporate entities, or a persona and a corporation. 

Dartmouth vs Woodward.

Stems from the 14th amendment.  Folks don't like it, well....get a constitutional convention going and change the constitution.  It's there for a reason and has served the country well.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/

Quote from: Tyrion on April 30, 2014, 10:24:46 AM
The vast majority of infrastructure is paid from Federal dollars raised strictly via the Federal gas tax. The states pay a fraction of the costs which is funded various ways depending on the state. Nearly all Interstate trucking companies play the game of registering their trucks/trailers in the cheapest state for registration fees. for instance in CA an 18 wheeler can cost $1673/year where some states are less that $200. The poor owner-operator picking up intermodal trailers at the Ports of LA-Long Beach wouldn't have that option the Schneiders and Hunt Trans. big boys do.

I'm curious about your first sentence.  In the CBO report I'm reading, says 60% of infrastructure spending in the US are paid for by local and state authorities and that 90% of the maintenance costs for water and transportation nationally. Goes on to say "the Federal government provided the remaining funds as well as most of the funding for the air transportation system".

A few ideas:

Get rid of the 2009 Project Labor Agreement executive order...that drives up infrastructure costs and was solely done for political reasons and rewarding a constituency

Fix the Davis-Bacon laws of 1931 that ties the labor costs that drive costs upward of 22% where they should be. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 30, 2014, 02:46:53 PM
I'm curious about your first sentence.  In the CBO report I'm reading, says 60% of infrastructure spending in the US are paid for by local and state authorities and that 90% of the maintenance costs for water and transportation nationally. Goes on to say "the Federal government provided the remaining funds as well as most of the funding for the air transportation system".

Yep.  The USDOT is projecting that the Highway Trust Fund will become insolvent on August 29.  That's why you've seen a lot of state DOTs scale back their capital programs in favor of maintenance programs.  That's also why we're seeing what warriorchick was nice enough to provide us with, along with other revenue proposals like congestion pricing and managed lanes.

Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on April 30, 2014, 03:04:11 PM
Yep.  The USDOT is projecting that the Highway Trust Fund will become insolvent on August 29.  That's why you've seen a lot of state DOTs scale back their capital programs in favor of maintenance programs.  That's also why we're seeing what warriorchick was nice enough to provide us with, along with other revenue proposals like congestion pricing and managed lanes.

I get that part, what I don't understand is the comment that the Feds were paying for most of the infrastructure costs in this country.  The CBO report suggested otherwise.

Wait until GPS taxation kicks in.  You will be charged by the mile you drive, which of course will be more costly to the some segments of the poor and middle class because affordable housing is often outside the city where the jobs are.  It's going to be awesome. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 30, 2014, 04:23:26 PM
I get that part, what I don't understand is the comment that the Feds were paying for most of the infrastructure costs in this country.  The CBO report suggested otherwise.

Wait until GPS taxation kicks in.  You will be charged by the mile you drive, which of course will be more costly to the some segments of the poor and middle class because affordable housing is often outside the city where the jobs are.  It's going to be awesome. 

A la carte cable will happen long before measured mile costs.

Quote from: brandx on April 30, 2014, 05:27:00 PM
A la carte cable will happen long before measured mile costs.

+1

There would be public outrage over this. No way it would pass.

Plus, the gasoline tax is already a measured mile cost.

Quote from: brandx on April 30, 2014, 05:27:00 PM
A la carte cable will happen long before measured mile costs.

Not true.  As Chicos is alluding to, GPS tolling is already being tested in a few locations.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 30, 2014, 04:23:26 PM
Wait until GPS taxation kicks in.  You will be charged by the mile you drive, which of course will be more costly to the some segments of the poor and middle class because affordable housing is often outside the city where the jobs are.  It's going to be awesome.  

Which is, of course, a radical departure from the existing tolling system.  Or the gas tax.

Quote from: brandx on April 30, 2014, 05:27:00 PM
A la carte cable will happen long before measured mile costs.

Already approved in Oregon and California considering it as we speak

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/21/oregon-plan-to-replace-gas-tax-with-milage-tax-raised-concerns-on-privacy-cost/

Quote from: mikekinsellaMVP on April 30, 2014, 07:20:33 PM
Not true.  As Chicos is alluding to, GPS tolling is already being tested in a few locations.

Which is, of course, a radical departure from the existing tolling system.  Or the gas tax.

Yup, already approved by Oregon and Washington.  California certain to be next.  Florida considered it in 2012.  It will become the new standard...another chord tied to big gubmit.  They still have to work out some of the privacy, law enforcement issues, which I have no doubt will be abused beyond believe just like private medical records end up in the public out here from magic pixie dust. 

For places that don't have tolling systems, like here in California for the vast majority of roads, it's going to be awesome.  Already pay the highest gasoline taxes in the country, highest car registration fees, so on and so forth.  It is truly going to be awesome.  More and more people will get out.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 30, 2014, 07:31:49 PM
Yup, already approved by Oregon and Washington.  California certain to be next.  Florida considered it in 2012.  It will become the new standard...another chord tied to big gubmit.  They still have to work out some of the privacy, law enforcement issues, which I have no doubt will be abused beyond believe just like private medical records end up in the public out here from magic pixie dust.  

For places that don't have tolling systems, like here in California for the vast majority of roads, it's going to be awesome.  Already pay the highest gasoline taxes in the country, highest car registration fees, so on and so forth.  It is truly going to be awesome.  More and more people will get out.

Right on time.....story about it yesterday here in California.  It's going to be AWESOME.   Keep feeding the monster that is always consuming.  And that is correct, our gas tax is $0.53 per gallon.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/California-Mileage-Tax-Would-Charge-Drivers-Based-on-Distance-Driven-258170311.html

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 30, 2014, 07:31:49 PM
More and more people will get out.

My brother is moving from San Diego in about a month.  I find his choice -- Washington -- a little curious, but he's had enough of SoCal.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on May 07, 2014, 05:29:38 PM
My brother is moving from San Diego in about a month.  I find his choice -- Washington -- a little curious, but he's had enough of SoCal.

I know two families that went to Washington.  They're not crazy about the weather, but they love everything else.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 07, 2014, 05:18:22 PM
Right on time.....story about it yesterday here in California.  It's going to be AWESOME.   Keep feeding the monster that is always consuming.  And that is correct, our gas tax is $0.53 per gallon.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/California-Mileage-Tax-Would-Charge-Drivers-Based-on-Distance-Driven-258170311.html

PLUS applicable Sales tax on top of that

Quote from: elephantraker on May 07, 2014, 06:08:28 PM
   PLUS applicable Sales tax on top of that

Add the Federal gas tax to the state gas tax, and we're at $0.71 per gallon.  Have a 15 gallon tank, that's an extra $10.65 each time.  That's why so many folks that live close to the Arizona or Oregon border hop over there for gas.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 07, 2014, 06:15:38 PM
Add the Federal gas tax to the state gas tax, and we're at $0.71 per gallon.  Have a 15 gallon tank, that's an extra $10.65 each time.  That's why so many folks that live close to the Arizona or Oregon border hop over there for gas.

In Singapore petrol is heavily taxed whereas in Malaysia it is subsidized by PERTAMINA, the state oil company. If you drive across the Causeway from SG to MY the Singapore Customs people check to make sure you have at least 3/4 of a tank. Anyone caught with less is fined heavily.

Police states...

Let's see live in Torrance / Manhattan Beach or Plano, Texas. That's a tough one. Think I will stick with CA.

Quote from: SoCalEagle on May 09, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Let's see live in Torrance / Manhattan Beach or Plano, Texas. That's a tough one. Think I will stick with CA.

SOCAL is a wasteland but NORCAL is superb. Far superior. LA defies definition but was best represented by Tarantino's Pulp Fiction. Now, SF is a world class city.

Quote from: SoCalEagle on May 09, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
Let's see live in Torrance / Manhattan Beach or Plano, Texas. That's a tough one. Think I will stick with CA.

I would move in a heartbeat, not even a nanosecond to consider it.  Torrance has good Torrance and not so good Torrance.  MB is great, but almost no one can afford to live there.  Those that do have a house the size of a post card or they make so much money it doesn't matter.

Growth state vs a yesterday state.

No state taxes.  Traffic totally different.

Can actually get value for $$

Only drawback is the weather....I've lived in a lot worse places than a Dallas suburb (Plano) so I would adjust fine.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 09, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
I would move in a heartbeat, not even a nanosecond to consider it.  Torrance has good Torrance and not so good Torrance.  MB is great, but almost no one can afford to live there.  Those that do have a house the size of a post card or they make so much money it doesn't matter.

Growth state vs a yesterday state.

No state taxes.  Traffic totally different.

Can actually get value for $$

Only drawback is the weather....I've lived in a lot worse places than a Dallas suburb (Plano) so I would adjust fine.

Can you at least put the word Growth in quotes... for honesty's sake.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 09, 2014, 05:42:49 PM
Can you at least put the word Growth in quotes... for honesty's sake.

Sure, if you can put "unemployment reduction" nationally in the same quotes.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 09, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
I would move in a heartbeat, not even a nanosecond to consider it.  Torrance has good Torrance and not so good Torrance.  MB is great, but almost no one can afford to live there.  Those that do have a house the size of a post card or they make so much money it doesn't matter.

Growth state vs a yesterday state.

No state taxes.  Traffic totally different.

Can actually get value for $$

Only drawback is the weather....I've lived in a lot worse places than a Dallas suburb (Plano) so I would adjust fine.

You would move in a heartbeat? Then go ahead and do it. What's stopping you? Could it be your good job at DTV? How ironic. You sound like the guy would devours every morsel of food on his plate, then when asked how he enjoyed it says "it was terrible."

Not too long ago you would post about how great it was living in "the OC." Nice house, happy with your diverse community, the schools, the property values, short drive down the 91 to get to the office. What went wrong?

Quote from: SoCalEagle on May 11, 2014, 02:10:11 PM
You would move in a heartbeat? Then go ahead and do it. What's stopping you? Could it be your good job at DTV? How ironic. You sound like the guy would devours every morsel of food on his plate, then when asked how he enjoyed it says "it was terrible."

Not too long ago you would post about how great it was living in "the OC." Nice house, happy with your diverse community, the schools, the property values, short drive down the 91 to get to the office. What went wrong?

Already one foot out the door.  If you must know, it is because it is more than just me, I have a family including kids that are in school.  We already know where we are moving to when they finish high school.  So in that sense, the deal is done and I cannot unnatural carnal knowledgeing wait to leave this state, but because of my kids friendships, we stay for a few more years (maybe, chance we go early, but trying to avoid that).

Only reason I moved back to the state was to take care of my mom after my dad's sudden passing 15 years ago.  My wife also had 8 brothers and sisters here and her mom.  Her mom has since passed as has one of her brothers.  They have begun to start moving out of the state as well, life long natives...daughters and sons of Wisconsinites including a father that went to MU med school.  These aren't stupid people, they see the writing on the wall like so many others have the last 2 decades.

My sister moved from the state 20 years ago, thinks I am crazy to remain.  My mom moved 12 years ago, can't believe I'm still here.  One of my wife's brothers moved to Virginia 7 years ago, way happier.  One of her sister's moved to Texas last year, they are beyond giddy.

Looking forward to moving on.  Will miss the weather and .......

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 11, 2014, 03:01:20 PM
Will miss the weather and .......

...the fish tacos. I was SURE you were going to say the fish tacos!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 11, 2014, 03:01:20 PM
Already one foot out the door.  If you must know, it is because it is more than just me, I have a family including kids that are in school.  We already know where we are moving to when they finish high school.  So in that sense, the deal is done and I cannot unnatural carnal knowledgeing wait to leave this state, but because of my kids friendships, we stay for a few more years (maybe, chance we go early, but trying to avoid that).

Only reason I moved back to the state was to take care of my mom after my dad's sudden passing 15 years ago.  My wife also had 8 brothers and sisters here and her mom.  Her mom has since passed as has one of her brothers.  They have begun to start moving out of the state as well, life long natives...daughters and sons of Wisconsinites including a father that went to MU med school.  These aren't stupid people, they see the writing on the wall like so many others have the last 2 decades.

My sister moved from the state 20 years ago, thinks I am crazy to remain.  My mom moved 12 years ago, can't believe I'm still here.  One of my wife's brothers moved to Virginia 7 years ago, way happier.  One of her sister's moved to Texas last year, they are beyond giddy.

Looking forward to moving on.  Will miss the weather and .......

This is all over the place. You moved to California 15 years ago to help your Mom. Admirable, but she moved a few years after you arrived. And you stayed, in that hell hole that you hate, for 12 more years. Huh?

I've lived most of my life in a state as dysfunctional as California (Illinois) that lacks the redeeming factor of beautiful weather. And mostly loved it. Also lived in Milwaukee, Seattle, Dallas and Houston. Not for as long, so my roots weren't as deep. But I loved them all, too. I had too rich a life with family and friends to let traffic, property taxes, weather, etc., make me miserable.

I admire that you recognize your unhappiness and are taking action. I hope a different job and a different locale can be a catalyst for a happier life. I suspect you know that real change takes more than that, though. Good luck.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 12, 2014, 09:58:52 AM
This is all over the place. You moved to California 15 years ago to help your Mom. Admirable, but she moved a few years after you arrived. And you stayed, in that hell hole that you hate, for 12 more years. Huh?

I've lived most of my life in a state as dysfunctional as California (Illinois) that lacks the redeeming factor of beautiful weather. And mostly loved it. Also lived in Milwaukee, Seattle, Dallas and Houston. Not for as long, so my roots weren't as deep. But I loved them all, too. I had too rich a life with family and friends to let traffic, property taxes, weather, etc., make me miserable.

I admire that you recognize your unhappiness and are taking action. I hope a different job and a different locale can be a catalyst for a happier life. I suspect you know that real change takes more than that, though. Good luck.

Where did you live in Seattle?

Quote from: keefe on May 12, 2014, 11:49:33 AM
Where did you live in Seattle?

Madison Park - 42 years ago. Was back there for the first time in years in September of 2012 - my best friend from high school lives on Bainbridge Island and my wife and I stayed a week. Much has changed but it's still a beautiful city - especially when the weather is good.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 12, 2014, 12:07:20 PM
Madison Park - 42 years ago. Was back there for the first time in years in September of 2012 - my best friend from high school lives on Bainbridge Island and my wife and I stayed a week. Much has changed but it's still a beautiful city - especially when the weather is good.

No kidding. That's a nice area. Close to the water, Capital Hill, downtown, the U. One of our favorite restaurants is Harvest Vine, a Tapas place on Madison Park. We would often go there after an afternoon at the UW Arboretum.

Quote from: keefe on May 12, 2014, 12:12:25 PM
No kidding. That's a nice area. Close to the water, Capital Hill, downtown, the U. One of our favorite restaurants is Harvest Vine, a Tapas place on Madison Park. We would often go there after an afternoon at the UW Arboretum.

Wasn't all that trendy, then - though I guess neither was Seattle. There was a bar between downtown and Madison Park where we went nearly every day but I can't remember its name. Lots of blurry moments from my time there.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 12, 2014, 09:58:52 AM
This is all over the place. You moved to California 15 years ago to help your Mom. Admirable, but she moved a few years after you arrived. And you stayed, in that hell hole that you hate, for 12 more years. Huh?

I've lived most of my life in a state as dysfunctional as California (Illinois) that lacks the redeeming factor of beautiful weather. And mostly loved it. Also lived in Milwaukee, Seattle, Dallas and Houston. Not for as long, so my roots weren't as deep. But I loved them all, too. I had too rich a life with family and friends to let traffic, property taxes, weather, etc., make me miserable.

I admire that you recognize your unhappiness and are taking action. I hope a different job and a different locale can be a catalyst for a happier life. I suspect you know that real change takes more than that, though. Good luck.

Thank you for the good luck wishes.

I understand your "huh", but that's because I didn't provide all the information so let me fill in the gaps.

15 years ago, I moved back here to take care of my mom.  
Yes, 3 years later, she moved out of the state partly to be closer to my sister in Colorado and her three kids and, ironically, because she said "I knew you wouldn't stay in California long".  Her thinking was right, as my intent was not to stay forever, but things got complicated not long after.

My wife's mother was getting up in age and all of my wife's 8 brothers and sisters were here, so we stayed on for her reasons also.  My mother-in-law was eventually diagnosed with Alzheimer's and so we went through that process for several years.  After her death, then one of her brothers was diagnosed with cancer.  He eventually passed.

Career success didn't hurt, then the wife and kids get established in the town we are in.  She volunteers like crazy, my son's athletic pursuits and friendships.  Then my daughter's diagnosis and attachment to Children's Hospital added another wrinkle along with my wife's health issues over the last 10 years.  Let's just say, my wife had no desire to move with everything going on and I certainly wasn't going to push it.

As some of her brothers and sisters have exited the state and rave about living elsewhere, her openness to leaving has swelled.  She can't believe what her sister went from in California to what she has now in Texas. It is unbelievable.  You pay for a lot of BS here in Calif and people do it all the time.  It is amazing, however, when some folks move elsewhere how often I hear "damn, I should have done this 15 years ago".  With the traveling that I do, I've known this for a long long time.  Different lifestyle, different quality of life, less expensive and a lot less of the fake crap that thrives out here.  

She's finally through ups and downs of the familial thing and ready to start something else.  That was a big step.  The issue currently is that I have no desire to pull someone out of high school if I can avoid it.  Good news is that we know we are going.  It is just a matter of timing now.  Certain things will accelerate it or delay it, but we'll see how it shakes out.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 12, 2014, 12:49:54 PM
  The issue currently is that I have no desire to pull someone out of high school if I can avoid it. 

but they wouldn't have to sit out a year if they transfer

Sounds like he's trying to help Obama reach his goal of 57 states.

We should just sell California back to Mexico, throw in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas as a bonus. Then all the politicians who support immigration reform can do so in Mexico City.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on May 21, 2014, 10:57:26 AM
We should just sell California back to Mexico, throw in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas as a bonus. Then all the politicians who support immigration reform can do so in Mexico City.

No need to put that in teal, there are active groups out here advocating just that....some of them professors in our fine colleges here at UCLA, USC, etc.  La Raza, MEChA and Aztlan movements have that ideal as a core principle with many sympathizers who back that ideology.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 12, 2014, 12:18:38 PM
Wasn't all that trendy, then - though I guess neither was Seattle. There was a bar between downtown and Madison Park where we went nearly every day but I can't remember its name. Lots of blurry moments from my time there.

The stretch between Madison Park and downtown is an area called Capitol Hill. To say Capitol Hill has bars is like saying Playboy has teats. It has some great watering holes - ranging from effete avant garde to muscular dive. Lots of great choices depending upon mood, objective, and companionship scenario.

After an evening at Benaroya Hall or dinner out with friends we often headed to Capitol Hill for a beverage. There are establishments offering hundreds of beers, on-premise brewing, whisky, wine, or just simply Belgian derived products. From my experiences over the years I seem to recall that blurry moments are still rearing their ugly heads on Capitol Hill. A world-class drinking environment.

Quote from: keefe on May 21, 2014, 12:45:41 PM

The stretch between Madison Park and downtown is an area called Capitol Hill. To say Capitol Hill has bars is like saying Playboy has teats. It has some great watering holes - ranging from effete avant garde to muscular dive. Lots of great choices depending upon mood, objective, and companionship scenario.

After an evening at Benaroya Hall or dinner out with friends we often headed to Capitol Hill for a beverage. There are establishments offering hundreds of beers, on-premise brewing, whisky, wine, or just simply Belgian derived products. From my experiences over the years I seem to recall that blurry moments are still rearing their ugly heads on Capitol Hill. A world-class drinking environment.

Capitol Hill it was - this was in 1973, though, before Seattle got "hot". The bar we went to had a decent selection of beers, a good juke box, two pool tables and a couple of nice TVs for sports (I loved that games started during happy hour and were over early enough not to interfere with late night shenanigans). The woman were prettier than Milwaukee's (big deal) but not much. I understand it's changed a great deal for the better.

couple years back I stayed at a Hotel by Swedish hospital. It was 9 O'clock on a Sunday and the kitchen was closed so a colleague and I started walking looking for an open restaurant.  a distant light drew us into a neighborhood bar and as we sat down we looked around and found ourselves in the Wild Rose. After taking in the rather large paintings of a bevy of nude females and discovering that the dude at the pool table in a wife beater, ball cap with a unlit cigarette in the mouth was not a guy, we quickly decided two males were rather out of place and left before we were thrown out. The next night I met a friend in downtown at, I think, Ocean Prime and sat at the bar downing beers and oysters. Awhile later we were joined by Mrs. Doubtfire who chose a stool near us and was joined by some rather attractive ladies. Always exciting Seattle and I enjoy my numerous trips there

Quote from: elephantraker on May 21, 2014, 01:34:57 PM
couple years back I stayed at a Hotel by Swedish hospital. It was 9 O'clock on a Sunday and the kitchen was closed so a colleague and I started walking looking for an open restaurant.  a distant light drew us into a neighborhood bar and as we sat down we looked around and found ourselves in the Wild Rose. After taking in the rather large paintings of a bevy of nude females and discovering that the dude at the pool table in a wife beater, ball cap with a unlit cigarette in the mouth was not a guy, we quickly decided two males were rather out of place and left before we were thrown out. The next night I met a friend in downtown at, I think, Ocean Prime and sat at the bar downing beers and oysters. Awhile later we were joined by Mrs. Doubtfire who chose a stool near us and was joined by some rather attractive ladies. Always exciting Seattle and I enjoy my numerous trips there

When my wife was at the Gates Foundation we agreed to meet after work on Capitol Hill for dinner. I had been flying that day so I was able to bag out early. I had a couple hours to kill so I wandered into the nearest watering hole, which was empty, where I bellied up and ordered a beer. I was in a flight suit and had an armful of Air Force paperwork that I intended to plow through while waiting for the wife.

The place began to fill up and it was only when I needed a second round that I looked up from my work. I realized the bar had nothing but men - many of whom were clearly on very familiar terms. I was the proverbial sore thumb. I knew I needed to egress rather than have another so I quickly asked the check. The barman realized my distress and he said that my beer was on the house, thanking me for my service. He then pointed out, "We don't get a lot of military in here...at least not in uniform..."

Keefe

  Neither of us retreated... We just advanced in another direction

Quote from: elephantraker on May 21, 2014, 03:36:38 PM
Keefe

  Neither of us retreated... We just advanced in another direction

Yea, that place gave new meaning to the expression, "Advancing to the rear..."

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 21, 2014, 12:29:50 PM
No need to put that in teal, there are active groups out here advocating just that....some of them professors in our fine colleges here at UCLA, USC, etc.  La Raza, MEChA and Aztlan movements have that ideal as a core principle with many sympathizers who back that ideology.

I put 2 + 2 together and think I got 3 1/2. Chicos already left California and we know he is pretty far to the right - aha... which would make Idaho seem like the ideal place. And, then I saw this:

http://idahoptv.org/elections/2014/

Is Chicos leaving the world of DirectTV behind for the world of politics? I think the evidence speaks for itself  :o

Quote from: brandx on May 21, 2014, 10:46:42 PM
I put 2 + 2 together and think I got 3 1/2. Chicos already left California and we know he is pretty far to the right - aha... which would make Idaho seem like the ideal place. And, then I saw this:

http://idahoptv.org/elections/2014/

Is Chicos leaving the world of DirectTV behind for the world of politics? I think the evidence speaks for itself  :o

I am torn between Harley Brown and Walt Bayes but I think I'm all in for Harley for Governor. This man deserves our support!


Link for Harley Brown's Political Manifesto:

http://www.governorharley.com/default.htm


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2014/05/16/harley-brown-is-a-real-idaho-gem-in-gop-debate/


http://time.com/105512/idahos-gop-biker-candidate-on-life-as-a-viral-sensation/

Quote from: brandx on May 21, 2014, 10:46:42 PM
I put 2 + 2 together and think I got 3 1/2. Chicos already left California and we know he is pretty far to the right - aha... which would make Idaho seem like the ideal place. And, then I saw this:

http://idahoptv.org/elections/2014/

Is Chicos leaving the world of DirectTV behind for the world of politics? I think the evidence speaks for itself  :o

C. Everett Coop is running???

Quote from: brandx on May 21, 2014, 10:46:42 PM
I put 2 + 2 together and think I got 3 1/2. Chicos already left California and we know he is pretty far to the right - aha... which would make Idaho seem like the ideal place. And, then I saw this:

http://idahoptv.org/elections/2014/

Is Chicos leaving the world of DirectTV behind for the world of politics? I think the evidence speaks for itself  :o

Love Idaho, go up there 2 or 3 times a year.

Not sure any of these clowns are as clownish as Mary Burke    ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 22, 2014, 10:11:26 AM
Love Idaho, go up there 2 or 3 times a year.

Not sure any of these clowns are as clownish as Mary Burke    ;)

I love Idaho, too. Superb fly fishing ad Ketchum is a great place.

Is Mary Burke a Subaru Driver?

Quote from: Bleuteaux on February 22, 2014, 11:59:12 PM
Dude! People are voting with their feet. By moving to California. It's where every educated Asian immigrant wants to be. It's where every computer or electrical engineering grad wants to work, including many of my MU buddies.

Hope you feel so warm and fuzzy about CA when it goes bankrupt.

Quote from: ATWizJr on May 27, 2014, 09:32:02 AM
CA when it goes bankrupt.

Fiscally? Morally? Intellectually?

Quote from: keefe on May 27, 2014, 10:15:48 AM
Fiscally? Morally? Intellectually?

Emotionally

Quote from: Bleuteaux on May 27, 2014, 10:16:13 AM
Emotionally

Actually you are wrong there, Bleu. CA is the epicenter of emotional rediscovery. As a practitioner of Rolfing, EST, TM, and Primal Scream Therapy I can attest to the cleansing and nurturing properties of California-based emotional reconstitution. In fact, as soon as my loin cloth and dhoti are finished drying in the Seattle sun I am heading over to my Ashram for an afternoon of purging my residual carvaka tendencies through a tantric exploration of my seven most vital chakras. 

Quote from: keefe on May 27, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
Actually you are wrong there, Bleu. CA is the epicenter of emotional rediscovery. As a practitioner of Rolfing, EST, TM, and Primal Scream Therapy I can attest to the cleansing and nurturing properties of California-based emotional reconstitution. In fact, as soon as my loin cloth and dhoti are finished drying in the Seattle sun I am heading over to my Ashram for an afternoon of purging my residual carvaka tendencies through a tantric exploration of my seven most vital chakras. 

I stand corrected

Quote from: keefe on May 27, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
Actually you are wrong there, Bleu. CA is the epicenter of emotional rediscovery. As a practitioner of Rolfing, EST, TM, and Primal Scream Therapy I can attest to the cleansing and nurturing properties of California-based emotional reconstitution. In fact, as soon as my loin cloth and dhoti are finished drying in the Seattle sun I am heading over to my Ashram for an afternoon of purging my residual carvaka tendencies through a tantric exploration of my seven most vital chakras. 

Ah.... I had you pegged as a disciple of the Buddha.

Quote from: brandx on May 27, 2014, 11:15:00 AM
Ah.... I had you pegged as a disciple of the Buddha.

Keefe does not seem to me as someone confined to a single life philosophy.

Quote from: keefe on May 27, 2014, 10:15:48 AM
Fiscally? Morally? Intellectually?

yes. 

Quote from: brandx on May 27, 2014, 11:15:00 AM
Ah.... I had you pegged as a disciple of the Buddha.

Buddha was actually Hindu. Buddhism shares many central values with Hinduism but differs in that it is philosophical rather than theological.

Quote from: keefe on May 27, 2014, 02:39:14 PM
Buddha was actually Hindu. Buddhism shares many central values with Hinduism but differs in that it is philosophical rather than theological.

Fr Lambert, S.J. taught me that.

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 28, 2014, 09:10:10 PM
Fr Lambert, S.J. taught me that.

I had him for Islam and Buddhism....two classes

Bye bye Sony Pictures Effects....California in rear view mirror...going to Canada.  Lower taxes.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-sony-imageworks-move-20140531-story.html

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 31, 2014, 09:58:48 PM
Bye bye Sony Pictures Effects....California in rear view mirror...going to Canada.  Lower taxes.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-sony-imageworks-move-20140531-story.html

Also from the LA Times - regarding Toyota:

The trouble is that taxes, regulations and business climate appear to have had nothing to do with Toyota's move. It came down to a simple matter of geography and a plan for corporate consolidation, Toyota's North American chief told The Times. And in the big picture, California's and Texas' economies are growing at a similar pace, with corporate relocations — in either direction — representing only a tiny slice of job growth in both states.

"It may seem like a juicy story to have this confrontation between California and Texas, but that was not the case," said Jim Lentz, Toyota's North American chief executive.

Toyota left California to move its company's brainpower, now divided among offices in three states, into one headquarters close to the company's manufacturing base, primarily in the South.

"It doesn't make sense to have oversight of manufacturing 2,000 miles away from where the cars were made," Lentz said. "Geography is the reason not to have our headquarters in California."

The episode highlights the outsized attention paid to the interstate scrum to woo big-name employers — often with public money. Add in Perry's high-profile company-poaching visits to California, and the move teed up a talking point for those who argue that California must change its ways to fend off the Texas assault.

"It's a prime example of the state's unfriendly tax code and business regulations that drive businesses out of the state," said Allan Mansoor, the top Republican on the state Assembly's economic development committee. "The whole thing could have been prevented."

Economic data paint a different picture, according to experts who study job migration and creation. For one thing, poaching of jobs does little to grow the economy of any state.

In the big picture, Texas and California are seeing strong job growth. Since they bottomed out in the recession, both states have added about 1.2 million jobs.

Bye bye Pratt & Whitney air power engines division...pulling out of San Diego and moving to Georgia or Texas.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 31, 2014, 09:58:48 PM
Bye bye Sony Pictures Effects....California in rear view mirror...going to Canada.  Lower taxes.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ct-sony-imageworks-move-20140531-story.html

To Canada??? I thought that was a socialist hell hole that could NEVER compete with the U.S. for business? Why didn't these idiots go to your free & unfettered capitalist paradise Texas?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 31, 2014, 11:21:25 PM
Bye bye Pratt & Whitney air power engines division...pulling out of San Diego and moving to Georgia or Texas.

I didn't even know they had a location in California.  Probably Georgia as they have a location there already.  They have been trying to consolidate locations the last several years and closing smaller facilities so it's not surprising. 

Quote from: brandx on May 31, 2014, 11:07:13 PM
Also from the LA Times - regarding Toyota:

The trouble is that taxes, regulations and business climate appear to have had nothing to do with Toyota's move. It came down to a simple matter of geography and a plan for corporate consolidation, Toyota's North American chief told The Times. And in the big picture, California's and Texas' economies are growing at a similar pace, with corporate relocations — in either direction — representing only a tiny slice of job growth in both states.

"It may seem like a juicy story to have this confrontation between California and Texas, but that was not the case," said Jim Lentz, Toyota's North American chief executive.

Toyota left California to move its company's brainpower, now divided among offices in three states, into one headquarters close to the company's manufacturing base, primarily in the South.

"It doesn't make sense to have oversight of manufacturing 2,000 miles away from where the cars were made," Lentz said. "Geography is the reason not to have our headquarters in California."

The episode highlights the outsized attention paid to the interstate scrum to woo big-name employers — often with public money. Add in Perry's high-profile company-poaching visits to California, and the move teed up a talking point for those who argue that California must change its ways to fend off the Texas assault.

"It's a prime example of the state's unfriendly tax code and business regulations that drive businesses out of the state," said Allan Mansoor, the top Republican on the state Assembly's economic development committee. "The whole thing could have been prevented."

Economic data paint a different picture, according to experts who study job migration and creation. For one thing, poaching of jobs does little to grow the economy of any state.

In the big picture, Texas and California are seeing strong job growth. Since they bottomed out in the recession, both states have added about 1.2 million jobs.

I believe this also.  If anyone knows kaizen & lean, Toyota is the world leader in it.  The first rule is to eliminate distance in an assembly line.  The less travel the operator does the less waste, shorter assembly time and the more profit for the company.  This falls right in-line with that.  Closing a location in Kentucky should be the validation of this article as it's regarded as "a low cost state".

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 01, 2014, 10:19:52 AM
I believe this also.  If anyone knows kaizen & lean, Toyota is the world leader in it.  The first rule is to eliminate distance in an assembly line.  The less travel the operator does the less waste, shorter assembly time and the more profit for the company.  This falls right in-line with that.  Closing a location in Kentucky should be the validation of this article as it's regarded as "a low cost state".

I think the most amazing aspect of Kaizen is that it allowed Toyota to eliminate inventory. And because of the rigor and precision of their forecasting models, Toyota was able to do this not just for itself but all of its suppliers. This unheralded aspect of kaizen and Deming freed up hundreds of millions of dollars of working capital for more productive uses than carrying costs.

At a time when the Big Three had billions of dollars of capital tied up in inventory Toyota and its suppliers were operating on an exceptionally lean basis. This was a huge competitive advantage for Toyota and its entire ecosystem - from steel manufacturer through dealer network.

Quote from: keefe on June 01, 2014, 10:58:31 AM
I think the most amazing aspect of Kaizen is that it allowed Toyota to eliminate inventory. And because of the rigor and precision of their forecasting models, Toyota was able to do this not just for itself but all of its suppliers. This unheralded aspect of kaizen and Deming freed up hundreds of millions of dollars of working capital for more productive uses than carrying costs.

At a time when the Big Three had billions of dollars of capital tied up in inventory Toyota and its suppliers were operating on an exceptionally lean basis. This was a huge competitive advantage for Toyota and its entire ecosystem - from steel manufacturer through dealer network.

Inventory management and sourcing/raw materials were always the main concerns of the last company I worked for. That is where your money is tied up.
From dealing with the cotton market and the effects that China had on it to managing inventory to find the balance of having enough inventory for distribution while at the same time not having too much cash tied up in it was a constant battle.

When it was just the Big 3 selling cars in the US, there was no concern over inventory. Once Toyota and Honda came in with their lean ways, it was almost goodbye for GM, Ford, and Chrysler. But that is the history of American business. Ford started as an innovator and after it's refusal to change with the times, found itself chasing Chevy forever.

Quote from: brandx on May 31, 2014, 11:07:13 PM
Also from the LA Times - regarding Toyota:

The trouble is that taxes, regulations and business climate appear to have had nothing to do with Toyota's move. It came down to a simple matter of geography and a plan for corporate consolidation, Toyota's North American chief told The Times. And in the big picture, California's and Texas' economies are growing at a similar pace, with corporate relocations — in either direction — representing only a tiny slice of job growth in both states.

"It may seem like a juicy story to have this confrontation between California and Texas, but that was not the case," said Jim Lentz, Toyota's North American chief executive.

Toyota left California to move its company's brainpower, now divided among offices in three states, into one headquarters close to the company's manufacturing base, primarily in the South.

"It doesn't make sense to have oversight of manufacturing 2,000 miles away from where the cars were made," Lentz said. "Geography is the reason not to have our headquarters in California."

The episode highlights the outsized attention paid to the interstate scrum to woo big-name employers — often with public money. Add in Perry's high-profile company-poaching visits to California, and the move teed up a talking point for those who argue that California must change its ways to fend off the Texas assault.

"It's a prime example of the state's unfriendly tax code and business regulations that drive businesses out of the state," said Allan Mansoor, the top Republican on the state Assembly's economic development committee. "The whole thing could have been prevented."

Economic data paint a different picture, according to experts who study job migration and creation. For one thing, poaching of jobs does little to grow the economy of any state.

In the big picture, Texas and California are seeing strong job growth. Since they bottomed out in the recession, both states have added about 1.2 million jobs.

LOL.  What a pile of total excrement and typical unnatural carnal knowledgeing bullcrap with the LA Times carrying Jerry Brown's jug of water.

One of the guys I work with, his wife is SVP at Toyota in the their Finance office.  They have been transferred to Dallas effective in three years.  It has A TON to do with taxes.  How can this article even suggest this bullcrap when the mayor of Torrance flat out said they couldn't match the tax package when the announcement was made.

The journalism in this country to carry their liberal brethren is unnatural carnal knowledgeing disgusting.  

Here are the words directly out of the mouth of the major of Torrance.   "CALIFORNIA TO BLAME FOR TOYOTA MOVE".  http://www.cnbc.com/id/101625195

As for the last part of the LA Times article... let's compare those 1.2 million jobs added here in California to the kinds added in Texas.   It is embarrassing.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 01, 2014, 03:29:29 PM

Here are the words directly out of the mouth of the major of Torrance.   "CALIFORNIA TO BLAME FOR TOYOTA MOVE".  

What the hell? The guy's only a major. Put a colonel in there if you want to get serious

Quote from: keefe on June 01, 2014, 03:38:56 PM
What the hell? The guy's only a major. Put a colonel in there if you want to get serious

LOL.


Seriously, though, the crap the press will do to spin things has gotten so disgusting the last few decades.  Did you know our economy contracted this last quarter....first time in years.  You would be hard pressed to find it anywhere that was talked about in the mainstream press.  Have to protect the image, you know. 

This idea that Toyota didn't leave because of taxes...in fact the article says "NOTHING TO DO WITH TOYOTA'S MOVE" is flat out embarrassing that a journalistic endeavor can state this.  My old boss, Kathy Thompson, was the president of the Times until last year...she's now the CMO of Sirius XM Radio...glad she isn't there anymore.  That is just disgraceful reporting designed to do one thing....protect failed policies and a failed philosophy and cover it up. 

Jim Lentz is in CYA mode right now....his own Finance team that worked on the numbers say something totall different, I guess he's just being a politician now because the move has people upset.  The number one reason why businesses have left California...taxes and a gov't that is hostile to businesses. 

There is no question CA is not a very conducive environment for business. TX is winning because it accommodates corporate need. It is the classic strategy of enabling private sector value generation to replace government-sponsored economic activity. Mr. Jefferson would be pleased. There is no greater, more efficient mechanism than profit motive. Mr. Marx was naïve.   

Ranked 50th by CEOs....the California dream.  Worst state to do business in, bar none.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/05/16/california-ranks-last-with-ceos-toyota-goes-now-worst-in-taxes-why-californias-dreamin/

Quote from: keefe on June 01, 2014, 04:04:00 PM
There is no question CA is not a very conducive environment for business. TX is winning because it accommodates corporate need. It is the classic strategy of enabling private sector value generation to replace government-sponsored economic activity. Mr. Jefferson would be pleased. There is no greater, more efficient mechanism than profit motive. Mr. Marx was naïve.   

And not only for businesses IN CA.. but in order for businesses to sell INTO CA.

I frankly enjoy when companies list higher prices for California. Lots of money to be made there, but what a wreck.

Terrible, terrible state. Yet more millionaires move there every year than leave the state.

Why are they so stupid?

Quote from: brandx on June 01, 2014, 05:05:43 PM
Terrible, terrible state. Yet more millionaires move there every year than leave the state.

Why are they so stupid?

A. They can afford it

B. The climate

Quote from: brandx on June 01, 2014, 05:05:43 PM
Terrible, terrible state. Yet more millionaires move there every year than leave the state.

Why are they so stupid?

So now you're supporting the 1%.  Got it.  You sure about your claim, by the way.   http://www.sfgate.com/business/networth/article/State-leaders-closely-watch-migrating-millionaires-5135090.php


LOL.   Yes, California is a WONDERFUL place if you have a ton of money.  I'll miss the weather, the Ducks, the Angels and a few other things...that's about it.  

We have the highest percentage of millionaires and the highest percentage of folks on food stamps.  Meanwhile, the middle class getting assbeaten here, which is why they are leaving.  Awesome.  Progress.  Moving Forward.  

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-07/brown-s-california-outpaces-u-s-in-millionaires-and-food.html

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 01, 2014, 04:05:28 PM
Ranked 50th by CEOs....the California dream.  Worst state to do business in, bar none.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/05/16/california-ranks-last-with-ceos-toyota-goes-now-worst-in-taxes-why-californias-dreamin/

Yet your CEO chooses to remain in ... wait for it ... California. 

Must be some good reasons why DirecTV chooses to have its headquarters in California.  Chico's, you're not saying Mr. White is a stupid man, are you? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 01, 2014, 03:50:25 PM
LOL.


Seriously, though, the crap the press will do to spin things has gotten so disgusting the last few decades.  Did you know our economy contracted this last quarter....first time in years.  You would be hard pressed to find it anywhere that was talked about in the mainstream press.  Have to protect the image, you know. 

This idea that Toyota didn't leave because of taxes...in fact the article says "NOTHING TO DO WITH TOYOTA'S MOVE" is flat out embarrassing that a journalistic endeavor can state this.  My old boss, Kathy Thompson, was the president of the Times until last year...she's now the CMO of Sirius XM Radio...glad she isn't there anymore.  That is just disgraceful reporting designed to do one thing....protect failed policies and a failed philosophy and cover it up. 

Jim Lentz is in CYA mode right now....his own Finance team that worked on the numbers say something totall different, I guess he's just being a politician now because the move has people upset.  The number one reason why businesses have left California...taxes and a gov't that is hostile to businesses. 

Why are a thousand+ losing jobs in Kentucky then?  That's a "low cost" state.

Quote from: SoCalEagle on June 01, 2014, 11:35:15 PM
Yet your CEO chooses to remain in ... wait for it ... California. 

Must be some good reasons why DirecTV chooses to have its headquarters in California.  Chico's, you're not saying Mr. White is a stupid man, are you? 

Mr White running things at Direct TV? Chico must be thrilled.

Quote from: SoCalEagle on June 01, 2014, 11:35:15 PM
Yet your CEO chooses to remain in ... wait for it ... California. 

Must be some good reasons why DirecTV chooses to have its headquarters in California.  Chico's, you're not saying Mr. White is a stupid man, are you? 

He lives in Connecticut....no, he's not a stupid man.  I did recently read, however, the company will be bought by another company...in Texas.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 02, 2014, 07:14:35 AM
Why are a thousand+ losing jobs in Kentucky then?  That's a "low cost" state.

War on coal is part of it.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 02, 2014, 08:04:20 AM
Mr White running things at Direct TV? Chico must be thrilled.

I just keep thinking Reservoir Dogs.  

What's Mr. Pink & Mr. Brown's involvement?

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 02, 2014, 08:29:40 AM
I just keep thinking Reservoir Dogs.  

What's Mr. Pink & Mr. Brown's involvement?

Was it Mr. Pink who didn't believe in tipping? That diner scene was classic.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 02, 2014, 08:29:40 AM
I just keep thinking Reservoir Dogs.  

What's Mr. Pink & Mr. Brown's involvement?

"Why am I Mr. Pink?"


http://www.youtube.com/v/4W5KhfJHF_4?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param%20name="allowFullScreen"%20value="true

Ah Texas, the Bangladesh of the United States.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 02, 2014, 09:04:34 AM
Was it Mr. Pink who didn't believe in tipping? That diner scene was classic.

Yes.

"Should be about a $buck each."

wow!  one of the best, most informative topics i've ever followed on the "scoop"!  sorry guys, but chico's got ya by the short ones here.  he's just stating some great facts.  why would he bash a state he's spent much of his life in and what was once probably the most envied state in the union by all means, but being made very difficult for a "middle class" to live in.  ok for those living off the gubmint and those with almost as much money as God.  sit back and listen as many of you are getting the class in economics they must not have offered in school :-[

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 02, 2014, 08:29:27 AM
War on coal is part of it.

Bring our troops home from Kentucky. Now.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 02, 2014, 08:29:27 AM
War on coal is part of it.

Inexpensive fracked natural gas is killing coal.  A war on it is not even the least bit necessary.

And per Lenny's Tap - "Bing the troops home from Kentucky now."

Quote from: reinko on June 02, 2014, 09:44:45 AM
Ah Texas, the Bangladesh of the United States.

I don't even know what this means.

I guess it would make California something equivalent to Somalia.


Texas educational rankings up to 11th.  California now at 45th in one study, 30th in another.    Cost of living worlds apart.  Tax system worlds apart.  Higher percentage of people on food stamps in California than anywhere else in the country.

Progress.  Moving Forward.

Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on June 02, 2014, 10:44:20 AM
Inexpensive fracked natural gas is killing coal. 

That's a fracking lie!

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 02, 2014, 10:16:01 AM
Bring our troops home from Kentucky. Now.

We don't negotiate with terrorists....oh wait, now we do.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 02, 2014, 02:33:59 PM
We don't negotiate with terrorists....oh wait, now we do.

Yup - if you see these young kids are cannon fodder who cares?

I think all Americans should be glad he is coming home, but then, what do I know?

But in truth, we have almost always negotiated with terrorists (see Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush).

Chicos, you can't leave Anaheim now!  My daughter keeps talking about wanting to go to Disney Land to go on the Cars ride.  Seriously, that is the whole reason she wants to go there, for that one ride. 

So, hold off on that move for a while please so we can camp out in a u-haul in your front yard  :)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 02, 2014, 02:33:59 PM
We don't negotiate with terrorists....oh wait, now we do.

That was a nice little tag line... too bad its never been true

Quote from: brandx on June 02, 2014, 03:47:03 PM

I think all Americans should be glad he is coming home, but then, what do I know?

This was a monumental failure. There are profound questions about this guy and the circumstances of his "capture." The Commander -in-Chief should not have been associated with Bergdahl or his family in any way. Good men died because of Bowe Bergdahl's incompatible loyalties. I look forward to this misguided young man having to answer some direct questions. For now, I am reserving judgment of him as a "hero."

John McCain is a genuine patriot and legitimate war hero. His interview yesterday on Bergdahl was direct and biting. It is refreshing for any politician to be that blunt. But on the matter of Bowe Bergdahl, Capt John McCain, USN Ret made clear his disdain for the man and the cost of securing his "liberty."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10870318/Bowe-Bergdahl-a-deserter-who-cost-soldiers-lives-say-US-army-comrades.html

(http://allenbwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/dad_bergdahl.jpg)


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-questions-swap-of-highest-high-risk-people-for-bergdahl/

Quote from: keefe on June 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
This was a monumental failure. There are profound questions about this guy and the circumstances of his "capture." The Commander -in-Chief should not have been associated with Bergdahl or his family in any way. Good men died because of Bowe Bergdahl's incompatible loyalties. I look forward to this misguided young man having to answer some direct questions. For now, I am reserving judgment of him as a "hero."

John McCain is a genuine patriot and legitimate war hero. His interview yesterday on Bergdahl was direct and biting. It is refreshing for any politician to be that blunt. But on the matter of Bowe Bergdahl, Capt John McCain, USN Ret made clear his disdain for the man and the cost of securing his "liberty."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10870318/Bowe-Bergdahl-a-deserter-who-cost-soldiers-lives-say-US-army-comrades.html

(http://allenbwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/dad_bergdahl.jpg)


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-questions-swap-of-highest-high-risk-people-for-bergdahl/

I don't disagree with your point, but they are two separate issues. We should always make sure all of our guys come home, period. If the reports turn out to be true about the circumstances, then proper action should be taken against him by the military.

I truly appreciate the service of you and others. And I expect my gov't to ALWAYS have your back.

He denounced his citizenship, he isn't "one of our guys".

Trading 5 of the worst of the worst for this guy is disgusting, but hardly shocking considering who did it.  The military is so pissed right now.  Guy deserts, we send a bunch of guys to get him back who are killed, now we give up 5 terrorists in exchange for another terrorist.


888 days left...how much more stupidity can he accomplish in 888 days.  I'm going big with my bet.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on June 03, 2014, 05:04:51 PM
That was a nice little tag line... too bad its never been true

Show me where it isn't true.

Quote from: GOO on June 03, 2014, 03:41:57 PM
Chicos, you can't leave Anaheim now!  My daughter keeps talking about wanting to go to Disney Land to go on the Cars ride.  Seriously, that is the whole reason she wants to go there, for that one ride. 

So, hold off on that move for a while please so we can camp out in a u-haul in your front yard  :)

They just raised prices to $96 per person for Disney Land...that's not a typo.  A family of four is lucky to get out of the park under $700 for a day.

Quote from: keefe on June 03, 2014, 05:19:35 PM
This was a monumental failure. There are profound questions about this guy and the circumstances of his "capture." The Commander -in-Chief should not have been associated with Bergdahl or his family in any way. Good men died because of Bowe Bergdahl's incompatible loyalties. I look forward to this misguided young man having to answer some direct questions. For now, I am reserving judgment of him as a "hero."

John McCain is a genuine patriot and legitimate war hero. His interview yesterday on Bergdahl was direct and biting. It is refreshing for any politician to be that blunt. But on the matter of Bowe Bergdahl, Capt John McCain, USN Ret made clear his disdain for the man and the cost of securing his "liberty."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10870318/Bowe-Bergdahl-a-deserter-who-cost-soldiers-lives-say-US-army-comrades.html

(http://allenbwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/dad_bergdahl.jpg)


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/john-mccain-questions-swap-of-highest-high-risk-people-for-bergdahl/

Amen.  Truly amazing.  I feel bad for the parents of those soldiers that lost their lives looking for this guy who deserted his unit. 

Cute that his dad says a Muslim prayer with Obama..

Scary.

Quote from: Jay Bee on June 03, 2014, 07:41:23 PM
Cute that his dad says a Muslim prayer with Obama..

Scary.

BO is not only a muslim and a terrorist, but he is not an American.

And he is black.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 03, 2014, 07:28:05 PM
Show me where it isn't true.

Really!! Our gov't as well as just about every other power, in the world has negotiated with terrorists. The Israeli's gave up how many Palestinean prisoners for one of their own?

And the use of terrorist is disturbing. Do you really believe that when we attack these countries, that people defending their HOMELAND are terrorists?

Does it bother you that Reagan negotiated with and armed terrorists? He armed the taliban. They killed Americans with weapons that Reagan gave them. But that is apparently OK?

How about Nixon, Either Bush or Clinton? My guess is it only bothered you when it was Clinton or Obama.

This is an American soldier and it is the job of our gov't to get him back. You would prefer to try him on Faux News, but I am willing to wait for the facts.

Two years ago, Ollie North was blaming Obama for not getting him back - now he is blaming Obama for getting him back.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 03, 2014, 07:27:22 PM

Trading 5 of the worst of the worst for this guy is disgusting, but hardly shocking considering who did it.  The military is so pissed right now.  Guy deserts, we send a bunch of guys to get him back who are killed, now we give up 5 terrorists in exchange for another terrorist.

I am "shocked" you didn't express your displeasure with McCain for saying a deal should be made.

http://crooksandliars.com/cltv/2014/06/when-john-mccain-supported-swapping

Counting down to the lock.   Common denominator for almost every locked thread?    Hmmmm?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 03, 2014, 07:27:22 PM
He denounced his citizenship, he isn't "one of our guys".

Trading 5 of the worst of the worst for this guy is disgusting, but hardly shocking considering who did it.  The military is so pissed right now.  Guy deserts, we send a bunch of guys to get him back who are killed, now we give up 5 terrorists in exchange for another terrorist.


888 days left...how much more stupidity can he accomplish in 888 days.  I'm going big with my bet.

Words and terms are important CBB,  you know that.   These were enemy combatants,  that had nothing to do with 9/11, Taliban leaders,  not AQ.

And why not wait till facts come out,  clearly you are falling in step with Lindsey Graham,  Fox News,  and McCain.   What harm is there in waiting,  till more facts come out.   Cmon man,  the politicizing and scant resourcing of this story,  which is 72 hours old is incredible.

Patience is virtue y'all,  it's okay to hold an opinion for a bit,  but in this age,  everyone needs to jump to a conclusion within 15 min.

Now obviously not about California, and definitely a politically charged conversation.