Besides the fact that Todd Mayo singlehandedly got us back into the game, here's a few thoughts
1. For the last 15 minutes, Todd Mayo basically facilitated the offense through him. I know Derrick Wilson brought the ball up occasionally but there was no pressure applied to him, he didn't catch the inbounds pass during the extend a game fouling by Butler, and once he passed the ball off to Mayo to start the offense he never touched the ball again.
2. Todd Mayo is our best at feeding the post. He does the best job getting the ball to the block. Not just tonight, but throughout the season. Rewatch the tape if you feel this is incorrect.
3. He has the personality of one who wants the ball in big situations. You can't teach this. This is one of those intangibles where a player either has it or he doesn't Dawson is a freshman and still developing. Wilson isn't that type of player. No fault to either of them.
4. He makes Jake Thomas a better player. The effort to guard the dribble/drive of opposing teams guarding Mayo allows Thomas to get open for free shots - something he struggles doing on his own.
5. He's our best ball handler against pressure. Do either Derrick or Dawson exude confidence bringing the ball up the court. Both are guilty of bad turnovers from either traveling or poor passes.
6. He's the only guy I want taking a jump shot. Outside of Gardner inside or Jamil when he's on (like tonight and without his first half we're buried) he's our best perimeter player without question.
7. Our team plays better when he's on the floor for major minutes.
On a side note, Deonte Burton is the most disruptive defender we have regardless of his overall defensive skill on the ball or in the system. When a guy gets 5+ steals in limited minutes while disrupting several other possessions with his hands on top of his + offensive ability he has to see more playing time.
Honorable mentions to Jamil Wilson and Devante Gardner. Gardner contributed a lot with less than his normal time and I thought Buzz asked too much from him with his defensive matchup. Jamil had a killer first half and his foul trouble cost him from possibly his best game of the year.
Good win. Buzz, please don't be afraid to trust Mayo at the point as he's your best facilitator, perimeter scorer, and ball handler under pressure.
Marquette loses to Georgetown, never pushes Villanova to OT, loses to Providence and still gets blown out by St. Johns without Mayo. Like him or not, he's our best player moving forward down the stretch.
Referring to point 4...I have said this all year.
A lot tougher for a team to key in on a strictly "shooter" like Jake if they have know that Todd will take a jumper or cut to the hoop at any moment.
Agree with most of what you said.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 04, 2014, 11:10:17 PM
Honorable mentions to Jamil Wilson and Devante Gardner. Gardner contributed a lot with less than his normal time and I thought Buzz asked too much from him with his defensive matchup. Jamil had a killer first half and his foul trouble cost him from possibly his best game of the year.
Thought most of your post was good. I'll even agree on the honorable mention to Jamil. But Gardner? What game were you watching? His defense was beyond bad, giving up dunk after dunk and lay up after lay up. Mayo + our D got it done. No way the second part of that equation happens with Davante in the game.
I would have agreed with this at first, but the more I think about it, the more I don't like Mayo at point. You raise a lot of valid points, I just wonder if Mayo would be effective as a point guard. I think I'd rather him be actively looking for his shot rather than having to get everyone involved. I might be totally wrong and his mentality could work in the point guard role.
I think Derrick gives Todd a little bit of a safety valve to kick the ball out if he isn't able to create something, and then Derrick can get us into our offense.
I would prefer that Mayo play the 2G and have Thomas play the three.
Mayo had a great game and he played 2G. Switching him to PG is going to take him out of his natural position. require that he focus on creating for others.
Point 3 is a mentality of a 2G. A point guard has a mentality of getting the ball to someone else to take a shot.
Here's the game I watched. Jamil and Gardner scored 70% of our first half points. During Butler's run, Gardner never got a post touch for long stretches of the first 7 minutes of the game. Go back and watch up until the second TV timeout. Nobody got him the ball. If you're arguing that we're a better team without him getting consistent post touches than you shouldn't ever post another comment on this board. Gardner's defensive matchup forced him to guard on the perimeter. Besides, I counted at least 5 blow by lay ups/easy dishes given up by each D Wilson and Thomas tonight so let's not pretend Gardner was the only one who got burned tonight defensively.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 04, 2014, 11:32:05 PM
I would prefer that Mayo play the 2G and have Thomas play the three.
Mayo had a great game and he played 2G. Switching him to PG is going to take him out of his natural position. require that he focus on creating for others.
Point 3 is a mentality of a 2G. A point guard has a mentality of getting the ball to someone else to take a shot.
What did Mayo do the last 15 minutes of the game other than play the point? The offense ran through him. He did look for his shot (as all offensive point guards to) but he passed out to the better shot when the defense called for it. Derrick Wilson did not operate at the point guard for the majority of the second half. He never faced full court pressure (whenever Butler applied any type of press Mayo took control), he never had the ball in his hands when Butler was fouling, and he never facilitated the offense at the top of the key. Todd Mayo ran the offense for the last 15 minutes of the game and we had our best offensive output since Grambling. He may have been the 'shooting' guard by default because Derrick Wilson was on the floor, but he was our 'point' guard by any sense of the word traditionally.
Mayo was great tonight, but he is not a point guard.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 04, 2014, 11:38:40 PM
What did Mayo do the last 15 minutes of the game other than play the point? The offense ran through him. He did look for his shot (as all offensive point guards to) but he passed out to the better shot when the defense called for it. Derrick Wilson did not operate at the point guard for the majority of the second half. He never faced full court pressure (whenever Butler applied any type of press Mayo took control), he never had the ball in his hands when Butler was fouling, and he never facilitated the offense at the top of the key. Todd Mayo ran the offense for the last 15 minutes of the game and we had our best offensive output since Grambling. He may have been the 'shooting' guard by default because Derrick Wilson was on the floor, but he was our 'point' guard by any sense of the word traditionally.
That's what I thought I saw too.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 04, 2014, 11:32:26 PM
Here's the game I watched. Jamil and Gardner scored 70% of our first half points. During Butler's run, Gardner never got a post touch for long stretches of the first 7 minutes of the game. Go back and watch up until the second TV timeout. Nobody got him the ball. If you're arguing that we're a better team without him getting consistent post touches than you shouldn't ever post another comment on this board. Gardner's defensive matchup forced him to guard on the perimeter. Besides, I counted at least 5 blow by lay ups/easy dishes given up by each D Wilson and Thomas tonight so let's not pretend Gardner was the only one who got burned tonight defensively.
Guess it was just coincidence that our defense turned it up (steals, forced TOs leading to easy baskets) once Gardner went to the bench. And it was just a coincidence that Butler had 5 lay ups/dunks and 6 free throws in the 6 or 7 minutes he played at the start of the second half. He's a poor defensive player anyway, but when he's not getting the ball on O he pouts and is even worse. Watch the first 6 or 7 minutes of the 2nd half again.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 04, 2014, 11:49:07 PM
Guess it was just coincidence that our defense turned it up (steals, forced TOs leading to easy baskets) once Gardner went to the bench. And it was just a coincidence that Butler had 5 lay ups/dunks and 6 free throws in the 6 or 7 minutes he played at the start of the second half. He's a poor defensive player anyway, but when he's not getting the ball on O he pouts and is even worse. Watch the first 6 or 7 minutes of the 2nd half again.
Gardner can be dominant offensively, we know that. And for an offense-challenged team like ours, we need him out there a lot. But Lenny is absolutely right about this particular game. It wasn't until Otule replaced Gardner that Butler's dunk and layup parade ended.
I am NOT saying Gardner stinks or that Otule is better than Gardner! What I'm saying is that Buzz deserves credit for having a good feel for what the Warriors needed in this particular game midway through the second half.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 04, 2014, 11:38:40 PM
What did Mayo do the last 15 minutes of the game other than play the point? The offense ran through him. He did look for his shot (as all offensive point guards to) but he passed out to the better shot when the defense called for it. Derrick Wilson did not operate at the point guard for the majority of the second half. He never faced full court pressure (whenever Butler applied any type of press Mayo took control), he never had the ball in his hands when Butler was fouling, and he never facilitated the offense at the top of the key. Todd Mayo ran the offense for the last 15 minutes of the game and we had our best offensive output since Grambling. He may have been the 'shooting' guard by default because Derrick Wilson was on the floor, but he was our 'point' guard by any sense of the word traditionally.
I agree the offense ran through Mayo. The offense strategy was to keep screening until Mayo got a good matchup and then have him go to the hole. That doesn't mean Mayo was the point guard but the focal point of the offense. Mayo was the offense so of course it had to go through him. The offense was initiated when we started to set the screens for him not when he started his drive. Mayo played the scorer and the receiver but not the distributor
Also note that 4 of Mayo's baskets during that stretch came off of Wilson assists. He would have had a fifth but Mayo lost it on the way up. I would say Mayo played the two.
Quote from: BallBoy on February 05, 2014, 12:09:25 AM
I agree the offense ran through Mayo. The offense strategy was to keep screening until Mayo got a good matchup and then have him go to the hole. That doesn't mean Mayo was the point guard but the focal point of the offense. Mayo was the offense so of course it had to go through him. The offense was initiated when we started to set the screens for him not when he started his drive. Mayo played the scorer and the receiver but not the distributor
Also note that 4 of Mayo's baskets during that stretch came off of Wilson assists. He would have had a fifth but Mayo lost it on the way up. I would say Mayo played the two.
Mayo didn't so much play PG. He played more like Vander did when Vander was going great in games last season.
It's all semantics, anyway. The offense certainly went through Mayo tonight, just as it went through Vander so often last season.
I don't care what position Mayo is called just as long as his number is called for more minutes the rest of the season.
DB is horrid on defense. His disruption comes from constantly being out of place.
Hell of a scorer, but he needs huge improvement defensively and needs to learn an offensive role.
FWIW it wasn't just tonight. Todd has taken over the last two or three home games in the final 10 minutes.
He brings it in crunch time.
Look guys, I'm not trying to start a Ners thread regarding the point (although I think some of what Ners has to say is spot on). I'm simply trying to say that our offense runs most effectively all the way around with Mayo touching the ball consistently early and often in the possession at the top of the key.
Wouldn't you want our point guard to look for the best offensive shot whether it come from someone else or HIMSELF? Todd Mayo made better decisions than anybody who has played that role this season. (D Wilson, J Wilson, Dawson and even Gardner).
I don't think Todd forces the offense as much as he has taken heat for. He is our best guard in transition. He is our best guard off the dribble. He is our best guard to knock down the outside shot. He is our best guard at getting his team good shots. Call it what you want. Prior to Siva arriving in Louisville, I recall a pretty impressive point forward running the show for Pitino.
And for what it's worth, our scorer at home is very generous with assists if D Wilson is being credited for dishing the ball off at the top of the key only for the guy he hands it off to to then go on to make a great penetrating shot after 3 or 4 dribbles. No knock on Derrick but that's not an assist other than at the Bradley Center.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 05, 2014, 12:37:01 AM
Look guys, I'm not trying to start a Ners thread regarding the point (although I think some of what Ners has to say is spot on). I'm simply trying to say that our offense runs most effectively all the way around with Mayo touching the ball consistently early and often in the possession at the top of the key.
Wouldn't you want our point guard to look for the best offensive shot whether it come from someone else or HIMSELF? Todd Mayo made better decisions than anybody who has played that role this season. (D Wilson, J Wilson, Dawson and even Gardner).
I don't think Todd forces the offense as much as he has taken heat for. He is our best guard in transition. He is our best guard off the dribble. He is our best guard to knock down the outside shot. He is our best guard at getting his team good shots. Call it what you want. Prior to Siva arriving in Louisville, I recall a pretty impressive point forward running the show for Pitino.
And for what it's worth, our scorer at home is very generous with assists if D Wilson is being credited for dishing the ball off at the top of the key only for the guy he hands it off to to then go on to make a great penetrating shot after 3 or 4 dribbles. No knock on Derrick but that's not an assist other than at the Bradley Center.
I thought the assist total was a little suspect myself and have noticed they are far more liberal giving out assists at the BC. I actually watch for these types of stats and I thought he had 5 for sures and a questionable...so I can see 6 but not the 8 that the scorer gave him credit for.
Quote from: mubuzz on February 05, 2014, 01:05:59 AM
I thought the assist total was a little suspect myself and have noticed they are far more liberal giving out assists at the BC. I actually watch for these types of stats and I thought he had 5 for sures and a questionable...so I can see 6 but not the 8 that the scorer gave him credit for.
Yeah, and I think the United Center official scorers just gave Rodman
ANOTHER rebound.
In other words, this happens everywhere.
mayo definitely had a great 2nd half and there are times/matchups where he can play the point. Just not for the majority of the minutes. Burton also had a great 2nd half. This is the best lineup for most of the minutes going forward:
PG Derrick--not for 35 minutes. About 20 is about right.
2G Mayo
SF Jamil
PF Burton
C Gardner
Jake and Dawson along with JJJ can pick up minutes behind the 2 guards and/or when we go the 3 guards depending on matchups. Taylor picks up minutes backing Gardner and Burton. Otule behind Gardner. Anderson can sit. No room for him.
Before making him the point, I would like to see him penetrate and dish more. Let me know he can use his talent to make others better. Don't want him with the "shoot first" mantality knowing he's handling the ball majority of his playing time. The bigs will suffer.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 05, 2014, 12:37:01 AM
Look guys, I'm not trying to start a Ners thread regarding the point (although I think some of what Ners has to say is spot on). I'm simply trying to say that our offense runs most effectively all the way around with Mayo touching the ball consistently early and often in the possession at the top of the key.
Wouldn't you want our point guard to look for the best offensive shot whether it come from someone else or HIMSELF? Todd Mayo made better decisions than anybody who has played that role this season. (D Wilson, J Wilson, Dawson and even Gardner).
I don't think Todd forces the offense as much as he has taken heat for. He is our best guard in transition. He is our best guard off the dribble. He is our best guard to knock down the outside shot. He is our best guard at getting his team good shots. Call it what you want. Prior to Siva arriving in Louisville, I recall a pretty impressive point forward running the show for Pitino.
And for what it's worth, our scorer at home is very generous with assists if D Wilson is being credited for dishing the ball off at the top of the key only for the guy he hands it off to to then go on to make a great penetrating shot after 3 or 4 dribbles. No knock on Derrick but that's not an assist other than at the Bradley Center.
The problem I have with this is that it is based entirely upon "good Todd." What happens when Todd the turnover machine that jacks up shots and commits stupid fouls as well as breaking down defensively shows up? I don't think we have anyone on the team this year that has been totally consistent, and I would love for this Todd to be here all the time, but we just haven't seen that. Instead, we have seen flashes of both extremes. That's why we are 13-10. (Plus, can't get the fact that this was 2-8 Butler out of my head).
"When the chips are down for whatever reason, you can count on him," Marquette coach Buzz Williams said. "When the chips are down, he seems to show up. I'd like him to show up all the time."
Perfect summation buzz; with Gardner and Wilson, he's easily one of our 3 best players; but he needs to be more consistent
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 04, 2014, 11:49:07 PM
Guess it was just coincidence that our defense turned it up (steals, forced TOs leading to easy baskets) once Gardner went to the bench. And it was just a coincidence that Butler had 5 lay ups/dunks and 6 free throws in the 6 or 7 minutes he played at the start of the second half. He's a poor defensive player anyway, but when he's not getting the ball on O he pouts and is even worse. Watch the first 6 or 7 minutes of the 2nd half again.
This is 100% accurate. Furthermore, Otule deserves credit for sealing off defenders when Mayo would take the ball in the lane. For as good as Davante is offensively, he is horrible as a rim defender.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 04, 2014, 11:27:53 PM
II don't like Mayo at point. You raise a lot of valid points, I just wonder if Mayo would be effective as a point guard. I think I'd rather him be actively looking for his shot rather than having to get everyone involved.
I dunno, to me it looked like he was both running the point and looking for his shot.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 04, 2014, 11:10:17 PM
Good win. Buzz, please don't be afraid to trust Mayo at the point as he's your best facilitator, perimeter scorer, and ball handler under pressure.
Marquette loses to Georgetown, never pushes Villanova to OT, loses to Providence and still gets blown out by St. Johns without Mayo. Like him or not, he's our best player moving forward down the stretch.
He just has to be more consistent.
BTW, I will point out that of Derrick's 8 assists last night, 4 of them were makes by Mayo when MU was making its run. Derrick wasn't exactly a bystander out there.
Mayo's splits...
In 13 wins: 20.5 min, 10.8 points, 56.6% FG, 46.2% 3P, 83.7% FT, 2.5 reb, 1.8 assists, 1.3 TOs
In 8 losses*: 22.9 min, 7.5 points, 35% FG, 16% 3P, 73.7% FT, 1.9 reb, 1.1 assists, 2.5 TOs
*- MU was 0-2 without Mayo
In 5 BE wins: 24.6 min, 12.0 points, 61.3% FG, 54.5% 3P, 84.2% FT, 3.2 reb, 2.0 assists, 1.8 TOs
In 5 BE losses: 21.4 min, 6.8 points, 39.4% FG, 13.3% 3P, 66.7% FT, 0.8 reb, 1.2 assists, 2.0 TOs**
**-without the Nova explosion, these numbers are particularly dreadful.
Admittedly, I don't have the splits for anyone else, but it's probably safe to say that Mayo is the most important player on this team. As he goes, the team goes.
Good Todd is very good....bad Todd....
I'm not ripping the kid, but just like I said that we needed to temper our expectations for Dawson after the GTWN game, we also need to temper our expectations for Todd.
I hope it continues but until we get three or four games in a row of good Todd, I'm not ready t call him our savior.
@TAMU
I do not want to start a Ners thread so I will be very careful with how I phrase my post.
We're easily 0-5 without Todd Mayo against Georgetown, Nova, Providence, St Johns and Butler. It's not even close.
Your good Todd/bad Todd argument falls apart when you apply the same logic to the rest of our back court this year.
Good Wilson/Bad Wilson - Maybe smallest margin between the two but let's face it the ceiling is the lowest as well.
Good Dawson/Bad Dawson - He's a freshman who shouldn't be seeing the time he has if not for our issues with our starting PG.
Good Thomas/Bad Thomas - Even when he's scoring, the only way he can is by having someone find him when he's open.
Good JJJ/Bad JJJ - A bit of a mystery still as his injury limited some minute early in conference play.
Our only guy more consistent in the back court is Wilson who also has the least to offer. I'll stand by my original statement. Do I think Wilson should be benched? Absolutely not as he should be playing 20-25 minutes a game. All I'm saying is that our offense moves through it's sets just fine with Mayo up top and Buzz doesn't need to view the PG minutes/substitutions as simply a split between Wilson and Dawson.
Let's face it, for the simple fact that our team isn't great we're going to be playing a lot of close games. I don't want Derrick Wilson anywhere near touching the ball if we have a 1-8 point lead with 2:00 to play in regulation for the simple fact that other teams can put a <50% free throw shooter on the line for 1 and 1 situations. I also don't trust Dawson to make the right decisions come crunch time. For that fact alone giving Mayo 6-8 minutes a game at the point throughout the first 30 minutes is worth it just so he can get a feel for it as the ball will be in his hands when it matters.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 05, 2014, 12:16:47 PM
@TAMU
I do not want to start a Ners thread so I will be very careful with how I phrase my post.
We're easily 0-5 without Todd Mayo against Georgetown, Nova, Providence, St Johns and Butler. It's not even close.
Your good Todd/bad Todd argument falls apart when you apply the same logic to the rest of our back court this year.
Good Wilson/Bad Wilson - Maybe smallest margin between the two but let's face it the ceiling is the lowest as well.
Good Dawson/Bad Dawson - He's a freshman who shouldn't be seeing the time he has if not for our issues with our starting PG.
Good Thomas/Bad Thomas - Even when he's scoring, the only way he can is by having someone find him when he's open.
Good JJJ/Bad JJJ - A bit of a mystery still as his injury limited some minute early in conference play.
Our only guy more consistent in the back court is Wilson who also has the least to offer. I'll stand by my original statement. Do I think Wilson should be benched? Absolutely not as he should be playing 20-25 minutes a game. All I'm saying is that our offense moves through it's sets just fine with Mayo up top and Buzz doesn't need to view the PG minutes/substitutions as simply a split between Wilson and Dawson.
Let's face it, for the simple fact that our team isn't great we're going to be playing a lot of close games. I don't want Derrick Wilson anywhere near touching the ball if we have a 1-8 point lead with 2:00 to play in regulation for the simple fact that other teams can put a <50% free throw shooter on the line for 1 and 1 situations. I also don't trust Dawson to make the right decisions come crunch time. For that fact alone giving Mayo 6-8 minutes a game at the point throughout the first 30 minutes is worth it just so he can get a feel for it as the ball will be in his hands when it matters.
Exactly Matty. The good Todd/bad Todd could be said for EVERY single guy on this team
Thing is Todd is really the only one who can consistently score if his shots and minutes are there. Bad Todd is almost always a result of turnovers. Just let the guy play and shoot. It is really out only chance to win games.
I expect after a major confidence boost and a smile on his face last night Todd is beginning to feel it internally. He will become more consistent and blossom further as a player as his confidence and leadership grows. I expect Buzz knows that and will give him the minutes and the patience with a few dry spells along the way. We should be encouraged. Last night was a first step. The team has a leader. I expect them to follow his leadership and kick it up a notch. If Todd can do it, this team can do it too.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on February 05, 2014, 12:16:47 PM
@TAMU
I do not want to start a Ners thread so I will be very careful with how I phrase my post.
We're easily 0-5 without Todd Mayo against Georgetown, Nova, Providence, St Johns and Butler. It's not even close.
Your good Todd/bad Todd argument falls apart when you apply the same logic to the rest of our back court this year.
Good Wilson/Bad Wilson - Maybe smallest margin between the two but let's face it the ceiling is the lowest as well.
Good Dawson/Bad Dawson - He's a freshman who shouldn't be seeing the time he has if not for our issues with our starting PG.
Good Thomas/Bad Thomas - Even when he's scoring, the only way he can is by having someone find him when he's open.
Good JJJ/Bad JJJ - A bit of a mystery still as his injury limited some minute early in conference play.
Our only guy more consistent in the back court is Wilson who also has the least to offer. I'll stand by my original statement. Do I think Wilson should be benched? Absolutely not as he should be playing 20-25 minutes a game. All I'm saying is that our offense moves through it's sets just fine with Mayo up top and Buzz doesn't need to view the PG minutes/substitutions as simply a split between Wilson and Dawson.
Let's face it, for the simple fact that our team isn't great we're going to be playing a lot of close games. I don't want Derrick Wilson anywhere near touching the ball if we have a 1-8 point lead with 2:00 to play in regulation for the simple fact that other teams can put a <50% free throw shooter on the line for 1 and 1 situations. I also don't trust Dawson to make the right decisions come crunch time. For that fact alone giving Mayo 6-8 minutes a game at the point throughout the first 30 minutes is worth it just so he can get a feel for it as the ball will be in his hands when it matters.
All I said is I'm not crowning him our savior. Made no comment about playing time. I think his playing time should increase.
And no, the argument is not the same when you apply to the rest of the backcourt. Mayo's ceiling (last night's game) is higher than anyone else's in the backcourt. His floor (the St. John's game) is lower than anyone else's.
So again...good Todd is very good. Bad Todd is very bad. I hope that good Todd is here to stay.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 05, 2014, 12:22:19 AM
FWIW it wasn't just tonight. Todd has taken over the last two or three home games in the final 10 minutes.
He brings it in crunch time.
At home.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on February 05, 2014, 06:34:44 AM
Before making him the point, I would like to see him penetrate and dish more. Let me know he can use his talent to make others better. Don't want him with the "shoot first" mantality knowing he's handling the ball majority of his playing time. The bigs will suffer.
Just so I understand one of the pervasive arguments on this board... When the frontcourt is dominating and scoring at will (georgetown game), our backcourt is bad and not doing enough. But when our backcourt has the ability to win a game (Todd last night), the bigs suffer.
Does everyone understand you go with what's working or go to where the mismatches are? That's how you win games.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on February 05, 2014, 12:32:16 PM
Exactly Matty. The good Todd/bad Todd could be said for EVERY single guy on this team
Thing is Todd is really the only one who can consistently score if his shots and minutes are there. Bad Todd is almost always a result of turnovers. Just let the guy play and shoot. It is really out only chance to win games.
I thought the only chance to win games was replacing Derrick with Dawson? What happened to that end-all perspective?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2014, 01:25:51 PM
Just so I understand one of the pervasive arguments on this board... When the frontcourt is dominating and scoring at will (georgetown game), our backcourt is bad and not doing enough. But when our backcourt has the ability to win a game (Todd last night), the bigs suffer.
Does everyone understand you go with what's working or go to where the mismatches are? That's how you win games.
Pervasive, because you "The Almighty" doesn't agree? Our bigs are the heart of this team. If you put a "shoot first" guard at point, playing big minutes, our bigs will suffer meaning their all-round numbers will go down because their paint touches will go down. Your responses are becoming a bit clownish. Stop advancing the extreme to support your argument.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on February 05, 2014, 03:49:01 PM
Pervasive, because you "The Almighty" doesn't agree? Our bigs are the heart of this team. If you put a "shoot first" guard at point, playing big minutes, our bigs will suffer meaning their all-round numbers will go down because their paint touches will go down. Your responses are becoming a bit clownish. Stop advancing the extreme to support your argument.
Uh. What? I'm merely pointing out that people go nuts when the backcourt doesn't contribute enough (almost always because the frontcourt is dominating - like in the Georgetown game). As well, people go nuts when the backcourt scores too much (like when you said the "frontcourt will suffer") like in the Butler game.
I'm merely pointing out the fickleness of fans. Nothing seems to ever be good enough, especially this season. Buzz and our players are trying to contribute and score wherever they can and wherever the matchups dictate we will be the most successful.
I'm not advancing an extreme. Nor do I have any argument to support. I apologize if you felt insulted. It just seemed to be a complete 180 from how people felt after Georgetown.
Who cares how we score, or who contributes, or which part of the team is successful as long as we win? Isn't that the part that matters? If JJJ scores 50 and we win, is that bad because Gardner may only have 4 in the same game? I have never said our bigs weren't important. I have never said our frontcourt shouldn't be getting the ball. I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
Edit: Sunbelt - since I seem to not understand your viewpoint, would you care to inform me what you think my argument is?
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2014, 01:26:37 PM
I thought the only chance to win games was replacing Derrick with Dawson? What happened to that end-all perspective?
It certainly would help...if Buzz made the move to Dawson. You may also note numerous times that I've said Mayo should be a starter and getting max minutes...been saying that all year long...and basically throughout Todd's career..have always been bullish on Mayo - felt he could replace Vander's production from last year if given equal opportunity and minutes as Vander....hopefully moving forward he will...and we'll see Todd lead us to wins...even while being handicapped with an ineffective PG.
Saw it early on this season that it was going to be a struggle with Derrick at the PG...and nothing has changed my mind. Certainly not his 8% on 3s, 35% on layups, and 46% on FTs and 5.0ppg average in 30 minutes. Blows my mind the LOW standards some here have as to what they expect out of a 30 minute per game PG! I'll promise you this...once Dawson gets 30 minutes per game in his MU career...his numbers will blow those of Derrick out of the water...suspect he'll quadruple his 3 pt shooting percentage, exceed his "layup" or 2pt FG shooting percentage by 5-7% and he'll shoot 30% better from the FT line, and will double..if not triple his 5ppg scoring average.
I can't even fathom if we have to sit through another year of Derrick getting 30 minutes a game next year...that will be the sh$ts.
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 06:28:01 PM
It certainly would help...if Buzz made the move to Dawson. You may also note numerous times that I've said Mayo should be a starter and getting max minutes...been saying that all year long...and basically throughout Todd's career..have always been bullish on Mayo - felt he could replace Vander's production from last year if given equal opportunity and minutes as Vander....hopefully moving forward he will...and we'll see Todd lead us to wins...even while being handicapped with an ineffective PG.
Saw it early on this season that it was going to be a struggle with Derrick at the PG...and nothing has changed my mind. Certainly not his 8% on 3s, 35% on layups, and 46% on FTs and 5.0ppg average in 30 minutes. Blows my mind the LOW standards some here have as to what they expect out of a 30 minute per game PG! I'll promise you this...once Dawson gets 30 minutes per game in his MU career...his numbers will blow those of Derrick out of the water...suspect he'll quadruple his 3 pt shooting percentage, exceed his "layup" or 2pt FG shooting percentage by 5-7% and he'll shoot 30% better from the FT line, and will double..if not triple his 5ppg scoring average.
I can't even fathom if we have to sit through another year of Derrick getting 30 minutes a game next year...that will be the sh$ts.
Yea, after reading some of the analytic stuff posted here, I thought Mayo deserved more of a shot. I even thought he might be good as a PG paired with Jake (since I doubt Buzz is going to pull Jake and Derrick off the floor)
And, I agree on Dawson as well. Assuming he gets the minutes. He's clearly more talented and has way more potential/higher ceiling than Derrick
My point in my previous point was that, before last night, the big change that would "be our only chance to win games" was replacing Derrick with Dawson. Now, Mayo on the floor is the new topic.
You've been nothing but consistent in your message, Ners. And for that, I applaud you. Tough to do with people arguing with you left and right.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2014, 06:32:19 PM
Yea, after reading some of the analytic stuff posted here, I thought Mayo deserved more of a shot. I even thought he might be good as a PG paired with Jake (since I doubt Buzz is going to pull Jake and Derrick off the floor)
And, I agree on Dawson as well. Assuming he gets the minutes. He's clearly more talented and has way more potential/higher ceiling than Derrick
My point in my previous point was that, before last night, the big change that would "be our only chance to win games" was replacing Derrick with Dawson. Now, Mayo on the floor is the new topic.
You've been nothing but consistent in your message, Ners. And for that, I applaud you. Tough to do with people arguing with you left and right.
Thanks Jesmu84 - You seem to do a very good job being objective. WE all have our biases of course. There are just a standard 5 or so posters here who consistently disagree with me..which is totally fine and their prerogative. Usually in the end, what I post on players and their ability/skill set ends up being pretty accurate. The one exception was Vander - nothing in his first 2 years at MU led me to believe he'd be the player he turned out to be as a junior...and I mean nothing. Probably the most startling jump in performance I've seen a player take in my recollection of watching MU hoops the last 25 years.
If Derrick can somehow take an exponential leap up, and lead this team to victory and the NCAA tourney, I'll be very happy for him personally...and as a fan of the program....will also be shocked. Its going to take Herculean efforts from guys like Mayo and Burton to get us in the NCAA and win 8 of our next 9 games...so long as Buzz continues to roll with Derrick and Jake 25+. We have to remember that was the last place team in the league on our home floor...and until the 10 minute mark..it looked like we were going to lose.
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 06:28:01 PM
It certainly would help...if Buzz made the move to Dawson. You may also note numerous times that I've said Mayo should be a starter and getting max minutes...been saying that all year long...and basically throughout Todd's career..have always been bullish on Mayo - felt he could replace Vander's production from last year if given equal opportunity and minutes as Vander....hopefully moving forward he will...and we'll see Todd lead us to wins...even while being handicapped with an ineffective PG.
Saw it early on this season that it was going to be a struggle with Derrick at the PG...and nothing has changed my mind. Certainly not his 8% on 3s, 35% on layups, and 46% on FTs and 5.0ppg average in 30 minutes. Blows my mind the LOW standards some here have as to what they expect out of a 30 minute per game PG! I'll promise you this...once Dawson gets 30 minutes per game in his MU career...his numbers will blow those of Derrick out of the water...suspect he'll quadruple his 3 pt shooting percentage, exceed his "layup" or 2pt FG shooting percentage by 5-7% and he'll shoot 30% better from the FT line, and will double..if not triple his 5ppg scoring average.
I can't even fathom if we have to sit through another year of Derrick getting 30 minutes a game next year...that will be the sh$ts.
Derrick's 2 point shooting % is over 44% so I don't know where you pulled that "35% on lay ups" crap from.
I will agree on one thing though. I can't fathom how miserable things for everybody here (even those who agree with you) will be if Derrick plays big minutes next year. Not because of how he plays, but because of hundreds of repetitious posts that could have been summed up in one or two (at the most) paragraphs, multiple moratoriums instituted and broken, etc. That will be the sh$ts, alright.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on February 05, 2014, 03:49:01 PM
Pervasive, because you "The Almighty" doesn't agree? Our bigs are the heart of this team. If you put a "shoot first" guard at point, playing big minutes, our bigs will suffer meaning their all-round numbers will go down because their paint touches will go down. Your responses are becoming a bit clownish. Stop advancing the extreme to support your argument.
I disagree. We have NOT been successful this year with the bigs as the 'heart' of this team. We've had a non-scoring backcourt (Derrick & Jake) for the most part and have not been successful - the 'bigs' have not taken over games (except for Davante). A 'shoot-first' PG may be exactly what this team needs as we all realize this is a very offensively challenged team.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on February 05, 2014, 06:34:44 AM
Before making him the point, I would like to see him penetrate and dish more. Let me know he can use his talent to make others better. Don't want him with the "shoot first" mantality knowing he's handling the ball majority of his playing time. The bigs will suffer.
To be fair, I think I saw him have a few drive and dishes. The problem was they were to Derrick who wasn't going to take the shot, no matter how open he was. That raises the question if Todd's drive actually got Derrick open, or the defense sagging caused him to be open. Either way, he was making that pass.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 05, 2014, 07:15:05 PM
Derrick's 2 point shooting % is over 44% so I don't know where you pulled that "35% on lay ups" crap from.
I will agree on one thing though. I can't fathom how miserable things for everybody here (even those who agree with you) will be if Derrick plays big minutes next year. Not because of how he plays, but because of hundreds of repetitious posts that could have been summed up in one or two (at the most) paragraphs, multiple moratoriums instituted and broken, etc. That will be the sh$ts, alright.
My bad - his FG% (layup percentage) is 40.5% not 35%...we all know Derrick's taken about 8 midrange jumpers this year...thus I call it his layup percentage. Not sure where you pulled that 44% from?
Hopefully we won't have to deal with more of 30 minutes of Derrick next year...yet I'm sure his play will prove my point as its continued to prove - he's a backup caliber PG at this level. Nothing about his numbers suggests he should be getting 30 minutes per game. Hopefully Dawson or Duane (don't care which one) will be given at least 20 minutes per game of PG time next year..
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 09:26:23 PM
My bad - his FG% (layup percentage) is 40.5% not 35%...we all know Derrick's taken about 8 midrange jumpers this year...thus I call it his layup percentage. Not sure where you pulled that 44% from?
Derrick has taken 116 shots. 12 of them are 3 point shots. So, 104 2 point attempts. He has made 47 shots. 1 of them was a 3 point shot. So, 46 2 point makes. 46 (2s made) divided by 104 (2s attempted) = .442. .442 = 44.2% of 2 point shots (or lay ups, as you call them) made. That's where the 44% was "pulled from". Now, where did you pull that 40.5 or that 35 from?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 05, 2014, 09:45:22 PM
Derrick has taken 116 shots. 12 of them are 3 point shots. So, 104 2 point attempts. He has made 47 shots. 1 of them was a 3 point shot. So, 46 2 point makes. 46 (2s made) divided by 104 (2s attempted) = .442. .442 = 44.2% of 2 point shots (or lay ups, as you call them) made. That's where the 44% was "pulled from". Now, where did you pull that 40.5 or that 35 from?
He was too busy being an all-universe basketball talent to study the maths.
I will take a permanent ban from posting if Ners will quit talking about Derrick.
I'm not kidding.
MUBB Mad lib time!
(Insert MU guard) has an eye for the rim, creates space between him and the defender, he explodes to the basket, and finishes strong.
(Insert MU guard) makes layups.
I did not bother to read all the prior posts. However, saying Mayo should start at point based on the Butler game ignores one big fact. Mayo was simply too quick for the Butler bigmen to stop him from getting to the hoop. The prior game Mayo was horrible. The reason being that St. John's is much quicker and more athletic than Butler. Butler was simply a good match up for Mayo.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 05, 2014, 09:45:22 PM
Derrick has taken 116 shots. 12 of them are 3 point shots. So, 104 2 point attempts. He has made 47 shots. 1 of them was a 3 point shot. So, 46 2 point makes. 46 (2s made) divided by 104 (2s attempted) = .442. .442 = 44.2% of 2 point shots (or lay ups, as you call them) made. That's where the 44% was "pulled from". Now, where did you pull that 40.5 or that 35 from?
Similar to how Ners credits Dawson with misses that were "right on" and discounts Derrick's assists as being 8th grade caliber, he also discounts a few of Derrick's makes as being too easy while counting shots Derrick should have taken and would have missed. Running those numbers, I actually get 34.8%. It's pretty basic.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 05, 2014, 09:45:22 PM
Derrick has taken 116 shots. 12 of them are 3 point shots. So, 104 2 point attempts. He has made 47 shots. 1 of them was a 3 point shot. So, 46 2 point makes. 46 (2s made) divided by 104 (2s attempted) = .442. .442 = 44.2% of 2 point shots (or lay ups, as you call them) made. That's where the 44% was "pulled from". Now, where did you pull that 40.5 or that 35 from?
FYI - 3 pt FG attempts don't get counted as part of the FG Attempts Stat - it is a separate stat.
Derrick is 47 of 116 (.405) on 2pg FG attempts, and 1 of 12 on 3pt FG attempts. Derrick has shot the ball 128 times this year, and has made 48 shots.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on February 06, 2014, 06:25:10 AM
He was too busy being an all-universe basketball talent to study the maths.
See above ATL - as part of being a ball player, you understand 3pt FGA are a separate stat and don't get factored into your FG%.
Quote from: Ners on February 06, 2014, 09:22:44 AM
FYI - 3 pt FG attempts don't get counted as part of the FG Attempts Stat - it is a separate stat.
Derrick is 47 of 116 (.405) on 2pg FG attempts, and 1 of 12 on 3pt FG attempts. Derrick has shot the ball 128 times this year, and has made 48 shots.
See above ATL - as part of being a ball player, you understand 3pt FGA are a separate stat and don't get factored into your FG%.
(http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr154/ArugulaZ/mclaughlin.png)
The stat "field goal attempts" means field goals attempted. Three point attempts are field goals attempted. Therefore, three point attempts are "field goal attempts."
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 06, 2014, 08:40:42 AM
Similar to how Ners credits Dawson with misses that were "right on" and discounts Derrick's assists as being 8th grade caliber, he also discounts a few of Derrick's makes as being too easy while counting shots Derrick should have taken and would have missed. Running those numbers, I actually get 34.8%. It's pretty basic.
Sorry Merritt - Not the only one who sees it this way. The "Eye Test" has some "merit." What's really alarming is when the eye test AND statistics support that a player is struggling mightily..and one can't acknowledge that players limitations....at that point it is simply ego and stubbornness...something Buzz is struggling with this year...
Saw this posted on Scout site:
warriors3122
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Posted: Yesterday 7:29 PM
Re: I liked the Buzz rotation of Dawson at 2G
This is not a personal attack. It is only an observation. Last night, I got to sit in the third row. From that vantage point, some of Derrick's missed shots were nothing short of incredible. I know he does more than score, etc, etc, etc, but a D1 player shouldn't miss a 2 foot shot by 3 feet.
Buzz is going to keep playing it the way he has all year.
Quote from: Ners on February 06, 2014, 09:33:19 AM
Sorry Merritt - Not the only one who sees it this way. The "Eye Test" has some "merit." What's really alarming is when the eye test AND statistics support that a player is struggling mightily..and one can't acknowledge that players limitations....at that point it is simply ego and stubbornness...something Buzz is struggling with this year...
Someone's struggling with it this year....but it aint Buzz.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on February 06, 2014, 09:37:55 AM
Someone's struggling with it this year....but it aint Buzz.
Clearly you, Merritt, Lenny, ATL, and Gooo.....
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on February 06, 2014, 09:37:55 AM
Someone's struggling with it this year....but it aint Buzz.
I see what you did there.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on February 06, 2014, 09:46:40 AM
I see what you did there.
Well I mean c'mon...
It's just getting comical. The ego is Ners constantly believing that one player is better than another to the point where he thinks he knows better than the coach. Of course he then has to claim that coach is being stubborn and egotistical rather than admit that maybe Ners himself might be wrong. The stubbornness is doubling-down on the assertions.
Of course then there is the whole "were you on the basketball team or in the pep band" question in the other thread.
I mean...WTF?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on February 06, 2014, 09:52:16 AM
Well I mean c'mon...
It's just getting comical. The ego is Ners constantly believing that one player is better than another to the point where he thinks he knows better than the coach. Of course he then has to claim that coach is being stubborn and egotistical rather than admit that maybe Ners himself might be wrong. The stubbornness is doubling-down on the assertions.
Of course then there is the whole "were you on the basketball team or in the pep band" question in the other thread.
I mean...WTF?
On the moratorium thread, I just vowed to stop responding to Ners' endless Derrick-Dawson rants. He keeps saying the same things but I keep responding so I guess I'm guilty of being an enabler. Honestly, what's the point? His mind is made up and absolutely nothing is going to change it.
Devante scores alot of points too...I nominate him to be the point guard!!
Not sure what game the OP went to, but nothing I saw in the Butler gamer or anyother game I have ever seen Mayo play in makes me think he should be the point guard. He actually does not have a very good handle and makes a good amount of very bad passes.
This is another very absurd post in a seoson of truly absurd posts
Loved Todd .... He did mad work .... But it's been proven in a pressure situation VS Georgetown that if young Dawson is given plus minutes and opportunity to play and play thru that he can get some things done .... 3 months into the system which once again proves he's a BALLER .... It's understandable to trust the vets 3years vs3months ... But there's no way you can fairly discredit young Dawson until he gets ample mins like VS the hoyas and that was away and necessary
Quote from: dddawson on February 06, 2014, 12:36:45 PM
Loved Todd .... He did mad work .... But it's been proven in a pressure situation VS Georgetown that if young Dawson is given plus minutes and opportunity to play and play thru that he can get some things done .... 3 months into the system which once again proves he's a BALLER .... It's understandable to trust the vets 3years vs3months ... But there's no way you can fairly discredit young Dawson until he gets ample mins like VS the hoyas and that was away and necessary
No doubt. If anyone was to get more minutes at PG it would be Dawson. The offense running through Todd does not mean he should be the PG. It simply means he should be out on the court as much as possible.
Loved that Derrick did great too ..... Stepped up and lead
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 06, 2014, 09:58:39 AM
On the moratorium thread, I just vowed to stop responding to Ners' endless Derrick-Dawson rants. He keeps saying the same things but I keep responding so I guess I'm guilty of being an enabler. Honestly, what's the point? His mind is made up and absolutely nothing is going to change it.
If NERS goes away will bma725 return?
I'm sorry I began this post. My headline should have read differently. It should have been 'Todd Mayo alleviates PG problems' or something to that affect.
Thanks Ners and Sync for another Derrick Wilson thread - SARCASM
My main point that got lost in translation was that there is no reason that either Wilson or Dawson has to be on the court for 40 minutes. Todd Mayo along with another guard and preferably Jamil can run the show for 8-12 minutes a game which effectively does two things:
1. Let's Derrick Wilson contribute where he does. He's a 20-25 minute guy who does play solid peremeter defense when he's not gassed.
2. Let Dawson get his 7-12 minutes without asking him to do too much. At this point we're too far along to hand the keys over to a freshman with limited minutes. We can argue what could have, should have, would have been but at this point it's pointless and doesn't benefit the team these last 8 games.
I apologize for what has been another journey down the rabbit hole or an online d!ck measuring contest played out by two guys under the guise of who the better point guard is. If it was up to me I'm not sure I'd want either Wilson or Dawson representing my figurative manhood.
Quote from: Ners on February 06, 2014, 09:22:44 AM
FYI - 3 pt FG attempts don't get counted as part of the FG Attempts Stat - it is a separate stat.
Derrick is 47 of 116 (.405) on 2pg FG attempts, and 1 of 12 on 3pt FG attempts. Derrick has shot the ball 128 times this year, and has made 48 shots.
See above ATL - as part of being a ball player, you understand 3pt FGA are a separate stat and don't get factored into your FG%.
You are absolutely, positively, unequivocally 100% wrong. Look at Jake's numbers. Is he 45 of 132 on 2 point attempts and 42 of 112 on 3s? Of course not. They are NOT separate stats. Want his 2 point %? Just like I did with Derrick, subtract his 3 point attempts (112) from his total FG attempts (132). He's shot 20. To get 2 point FGs made subtract 3s made (42) from total made (45). So he's 3-20 or 15% on 2 point attempts, 42-112 (37.5%) on 3s, and 45-132 (34.1) overall. Follow?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 06, 2014, 03:08:32 PM
You are absolutely, positively, unequivocally 100% wrong. Look at Jake's numbers. Is he 45 of 132 on 2 point attempts and 42 of 112 on 3s? Of course not. They are NOT separate stats. Want his 2 point %? Just like I did with Derrick, subtract his 3 point attempts (112) from his total FG attempts (132). He's shot 20. To get 2 point FGs made subtract 3s made (42) from total made (45). So he's 3-20 or 15% on 2 point attempts, 42-112 (37.5%) on 3s, and 45-132 (34.1) overall. Follow?
Quote from: Ners on February 06, 2014, 09:22:44 AM
See above ATL - as part of being a ball player, you understand 3pt FGA are a separate stat and don't get factored into your FG%.
See above Ners - <hysterical laughing ensues> I guess we finally have our confirmation of your grossly exaggerated basketball pedigree. After all, as part of being a ball player...... priceless.
When are you going to respond to the other thread BTW? ::)
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 06, 2014, 03:08:32 PM
You are absolutely, positively, unequivocally 100% wrong. Look at Jake's numbers. Is he 45 of 132 on 2 point attempts and 42 of 112 on 3s? Of course not. They are NOT separate stats. Want his 2 point %? Just like I did with Derrick, subtract his 3 point attempts (112) from his total FG attempts (132). He's shot 20. To get 2 point FGs made subtract 3s made (42) from total made (45). So he's 3-20 or 15% on 2 point attempts, 42-112 (37.5%) on 3s, and 45-132 (34.1) overall. Follow?
Join the moratorium Lenny! There is strength in silence!