Do you think if Buzz was a coach on a hot seat we would continue the rotations he keeps throwing out there? Honestly it has got to the point of being funny to me. Obviously the man has great job security and can play combinations that no coach would try more than once, if it all. Silver lining to me is that this actually has become amusing to me. With combo's he tries he is the Tin Cup of college ball.
Quote from: Goose on February 04, 2014, 09:08:50 PM
Do you think if Buzz was a coach on a hot seat we would continue the rotations he keeps throwing out there?
Yes.
Sultan
You are the best!!!
Quote from: Goose on February 04, 2014, 09:08:50 PM
Do you think if Buzz was a coach on a hot seat we would continue the rotations he keeps throwing out there? Honestly it has got to the point of being funny to me. Obviously the man has great job security and can play combinations that no coach would try more than once, if it all. Silver lining to me is that this actually has become amusing to me. With combo's he tries he is the Tin Cup of college ball.
Sure hope so. Cause if he wouldn't, then he is losing on purpose.
This season is a clusterf*ck, and it has reached comedic proportions. Thankfully he rolled out Todd and JJJ to start second half...though probably a function of Jake's foul trouble...because God forbid we be without his services come crunch time..
Sultan is Delusional. He made a point, and as everyone knows on this board, he'll defend it til he doesn't have to. Even the announcers made comments on the rotation tonight. It's just laughable at this point. He keeps giving the upperclassmen every chance to win but THEY CAN"T. Give it up and start developing players. The worst thing he can do is double down on your mistakes. Juan, Mayo, & Thomas won't even be here next year.
Buzz is fine
Well what do you know? Buzz's constant switching and trotting out different line ups found one that worked! Just like he mentioned in the on Milwaukee article.
I guess it's good to be delusional.
Heh...
It's obvious Buzz rewards effort in practice. He's trying to build toughness on his squads.
OK ... how many of you who think he should settle on one main lineup would have chosen:
Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Burton and Otule. Because that's the lineup that won this game.
Mayo took over the game. Burton shot every time he touched the ball, sometimes to bad results, but he also was a catalyst on offense and had some nice steals. Derrick was outstanding on defense. Otule again showed all of his detractors that he has real value as a defender and would be at least an 8-15 mpg role player on most team. And Jake, well, he did occupy a defender, make one 3-pointer, make a couple of hustle plays and double-dribble, but he was part of this most unconventional winning unit.
Quote from: MU82 on February 04, 2014, 10:33:27 PM
OK ... how many of you who think he should settle on one main lineup would have chosen:
Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Burton and Otule. Because that's the lineup that won this game.
Mayo took over the game. Burton shot every time he touched the ball, sometimes to bad results, but he also was a catalyst on offense and had some nice steals. Derrick was outstanding on defense. Otule again showed all of his detractors that he has real value as a defender and would be at least an 8-15 mpg role player on most team. And Jake, well, he did occupy a defender, make one 3-pointer, make a couple of hustle plays and double-dribble, but he was part of this most unconventional winning unit.
I love Mayo and Burton in there with Derrick. 2 guys who WANT to score. We've missed that all year. And without Davante on the floor with them, they just took over. And having them look to score so much gave Jake some looks as well
Quote from: MU82 on February 04, 2014, 10:33:27 PM
OK ... how many of you who think he should settle on one main lineup would have chosen:
Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Burton and Otule. Because that's the lineup that won this game.
Mayo took over the game. Burton shot every time he touched the ball, sometimes to bad results, but he also was a catalyst on offense and had some nice steals. Derrick was outstanding on defense. Otule again showed all of his detractors that he has real value as a defender and would be at least an 8-15 mpg role player on most team. And Jake, well, he did occupy a defender, make one 3-pointer, make a couple of hustle plays and double-dribble, but he was part of this most unconventional winning unit.
I disagree, actually. Any possession, absent a red hot Mayo that Gardner doesn't get the ball is a wasted possession. Otule and Thomas should play spot minutes. Burton is fun to watch, but geez is he a freshman!
It's not how we start.
It's how we finish.
Let's hope we are saying that well into March!!!
Quote from: MU82 on February 04, 2014, 10:33:27 PM
OK ... how many of you who think he should settle on one main lineup would have chosen:
Derrick, Jake, Mayo, Burton and Otule. Because that's the lineup that won this game.
Mayo took over the game. Burton shot every time he touched the ball, sometimes to bad results, but he also was a catalyst on offense and had some nice steals. Derrick was outstanding on defense. Otule again showed all of his detractors that he has real value as a defender and would be at least an 8-15 mpg role player on most team. And Jake, well, he did occupy a defender, make one 3-pointer, make a couple of hustle plays and double-dribble, but he was part of this most unconventional winning unit.
Hard to believe, but that combo had it going big time.
Quote from: Ners on February 04, 2014, 09:18:26 PM
This season is a clusterf*ck, and it has reached comedic proportions. Thankfully he rolled out Todd and JJJ to start second half...though probably a function of Jake's foul trouble...because God forbid we be without his services come crunch time..
Well, he did have six rebounds. God forbid we miss those.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on February 04, 2014, 10:38:18 PM
I disagree, actually. Any possession, absent a red hot Mayo that Gardner doesn't get the ball is a wasted possession. Otule and Thomas should play spot minutes. Burton is fun to watch, but geez is he a freshman!
Burton brings a whole different attitude to the game. Yes, he plays like a freshman, but on an offensively challenged team, the team needs him for 25 minutes a game.
He is the only guy besides Mayo and gardner that looks for his shot.
Do not understand this thinking at all - why would you not want to start well such that you're not in the hole
Quote from: real chili 83 on February 04, 2014, 10:39:32 PM
It's not how we start.
It's how we finish.
Let's hope we are saying that well into March!!!
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on February 04, 2014, 10:15:20 PM
Well what do you know? Buzz's constant switching and trotting out different line ups found one that worked! Just like he mentioned in the on Milwaukee article.
I guess it's good to be delusional.
Heh...
That's the worst team in the big east, Sultan. Pull that sh*t against a decent team and you lose. I'm at the point where I don't even care who plays. Just pick 8, maybe 9 guys and run with it. He's done that every other year but not this year. With the emergence of mayo my guess is JJJ is the odd man out. Juan doesn't need to see the floor, that's been proven. That was an ugly win, bailed out by Todd.
Quote from: Goose on February 04, 2014, 09:08:50 PM
Do you think if Buzz was a coach on a hot seat we would continue the rotations he keeps throwing out there? Honestly it has got to the point of being funny to me. Obviously the man has great job security and can play combinations that no coach would try more than once, if it all. Silver lining to me is that this actually has become amusing to me. With combo's he tries he is the Tin Cup of college ball.
So what's your rotation?
Buzz running tons of offensive and defensive rotations for years and successful = no one cares.
Buzz running tons of offensive and defensive rotations for one down year = Buzz is crazy and should be on the hot seat to make him stop this lunacy.
Every coach needs to win to keep his job, Buzz included.
Navin
Buzz does not need to prove himself with wins this at all. There is no hot seat at MU and that is a fact. If a coach had to win to save his job he would play the five best players every minute if that is what it took.
As for earning playing time in practice, obviously everyone has because 11 guys play every game. The rotation and lack of working up a sweat in a one minute shift is what is hurting the team. We stuck with an unlikely group last night and it paid off.
I do not think Buzz is trying to lose, but it often looks like we are not playing best lineup to allow us to win. He made a plan and stuck with it this season. When you are playing the 24th game of the year and still have not figured out what rotations work either you have 11 guy who cannot play or you reaching for straws.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 07:09:28 AM
Navin
Buzz does not need to prove himself with wins this at all. There is no hot seat at MU and that is a fact. If a coach had to win to save his job he would play the five best players every minute if that is what it took.
As for earning playing time in practice, obviously everyone has because 11 guys play every game. The rotation and lack of working up a sweat in a one minute shift is what is hurting the team. We stuck with an unlikely group last night and it paid off.
I do not think Buzz is trying to lose, but it often looks like we are not playing best lineup to allow us to win. He made a plan and stuck with it this season. When you are playing the 24th game of the year and still have not figured out what rotations work either you have 11 guy who cannot play or you reaching for straws.
So you're saying that Dylan Flood is a low effort guy?
Buzz isn't trying to lose, but he isn't trying to win either? Because he's not on the hot seat? But, he shouldn't be on the hot seat because sticking to a flawed plan and not trying to win is okay?
That's really what you're saying, and that's why Sultan is using the delusional word.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 04, 2014, 10:56:55 PM
That's the worst team in the big east, Sultan. Pull that sh*t against a decent team and you lose. I'm at the point where I don't even care who plays. Just pick 8, maybe 9 guys and run with it. He's done that every other year but not this year. With the emergence of mayo my guess is JJJ is the odd man out. Juan doesn't need to see the floor, that's been proven. That was an ugly win, bailed out by Todd.
Because they're inconsistent! He's trying to find combinations that work because he doesn't know what he's going to get from night-to-night.
Do you remember I think it was two years ago when DJO and Jae had 80% of the SOTG awards? That isn't happening this year because Buzz can't figure out who's going to show up on any given night. That is why he has been running in oddball line ups and getting a lot of guys playing time.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 07:09:28 AM
I do not think Buzz is trying to lose, but it often looks like we are not playing best lineup to allow us to win. He made a plan and stuck with it this season. When you are playing the 24th game of the year and still have not figured out what rotations work either you have 11 guy who cannot play or you reaching for straws.
When the "best lineup to win" changes on any given night, he has to figure it out.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 07:09:28 AM
As for earning playing time in practice, obviously everyone has because 11 guys play every game. The rotation and lack of working up a sweat in a one minute shift is what is hurting the team. We stuck with an unlikely group last night and it paid off.
I do not think Buzz is trying to lose, but it often looks like we are not playing best lineup to allow us to win. He made a plan and stuck with it this season. When you are playing the 24th game of the year and still have not figured out what rotations work either you have 11 guy who cannot play or you reaching for straws.
While watching the St. John's game, did Todd Mayo give you any indication that he was poised to put this team on his back and lead a come-from-behind victory 3 days later? Did you watch Jamil get benched in that game and think that he was going to be the team's primary offense in the first half of the next game?
This team is wildly inconsistent. If the versions of Mayo and Jamil who played last night had played every game, this season would look very different.
It takes more than 5 guys to win a basketball game. And you can't have your 5 best together all the time because you need scoring all the time. Given the wild inconsistency of all of the players on the team, it seems like it's 16:00 in the 2nd half before ANYONE can figure out who's playing tonite and who's useless. Same again with this game, but the combo was found and they won it.
Second thought - Buzz has certain combos he never uses.
Dawson never plays with other freshmen (imho - bad, I think it would be exciting)
Gardner Otoule is not happening any more (bad experiment)
But, there are some good combos as well:
Mayo/Jake (shooting and spacing)
Burton/JJJ (high energy)
Burton/Gardner (rebounding)
And, there are some inadvertent combinations that are failures:
Taylor/Gardner (Taylor hogs the ball and the low post)
Derrick/Dawson (Why? - if Dawson is on, get Derrick out)
Taylor/Anderson (Looks good on paper, but no offense)
I hope Buzz figures these out and gets more of the good combos on the court together.
Merritt
If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts. Buzz has earned the right to do what he seems fit and he is doing that this season. This is a strange season and the constant changes in lineups have made it even more strange.
For the record, this is not the first time an MU coach has made similar decisions. Al put a walk on, in OT, in during a must win game in late '77 and we lost. Rick flat out told guys that they would get limited minutes at best prior to the season because he was going to play lesser talented guys. Coaches that earned their stripes are in position to do different things than guys fighting for their jobs.
I have ZERO problem with what Buzz is doing, especially now because probably a lost season already. If something positive come out of this season all the better. But, to think that Jamil and Todd sitting 2nd half Saturday gave us best chance to win I think is beyond crazy.
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 05, 2014, 08:46:55 AM
It takes more than 5 guys to win a basketball game. And you can't have your 5 best together all the time because you need scoring all the time. Given the wild inconsistency of all of the players on the team, it seems like it's 16:00 in the 2nd half before ANYONE can figure out who's playing tonite and who's useless. Same again with this game, but the combo was found and they won it.
Second thought - Buzz has certain combos he never uses.
Dawson never plays with other freshmen (imho - bad, I think it would be exciting)
He did against Providence and it was terrible.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 08:50:41 AM
Merritt
If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts. Buzz has earned the right to do what he seems fit and he is doing that this season. This is a strange season and the constant changes in lineups have made it even more strange.
For the record, this is not the first time an MU coach has made similar decisions. Al put a walk on, in OT, in during a must win game in late '77 and we lost. Rick flat out told guys that they would get limited minutes at best prior to the season because he was going to play lesser talented guys. Coaches that earned their stripes are in position to do different things than guys fighting for their jobs.
I have ZERO problem with what Buzz is doing, especially now because probably a lost season already. If something positive come out of this season all the better. But, to think that Jamil and Todd sitting 2nd half Saturday gave us best chance to win I think is beyond crazy.
"If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half.
Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts."
This is just not true. In Jamil's worst efforts, he is a no show and/or gets into foul trouble quickly. Juan has had a few better outings than that. Jake's second half against Arizona State was certainly better than a few Mayo outings where he hogged the ball, shot poorly and made more than his share of turnovers.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on February 04, 2014, 10:41:11 PM
Hard to believe, but that combo had it going big time.
Don't forget who we were playing--the last place team in the league. Let's go with Otule for 3o minutes a game and see where we are.
And yes Todd had a great 2nd half, and I hope he keeps that up, but his past shows lots of inconsistency--just like Ja. Wilson.
That said, the 3 guard lineup won't work against many teams, and Gardner needs to be in there for offense. Otule is a 10 minute man.
Little Murs
Respectfully disagree. So, if your paycheck was on the line you would have benched Todd and Jamil on Saturday? If my job was 100% on the line I am betting on those two over the other options.
Why are we even talking about Buzz's job?
Quote from: WarriorFan on February 05, 2014, 08:46:55 AM
It takes more than 5 guys to win a basketball game. And you can't have your 5 best together all the time because you need scoring all the time. Given the wild inconsistency of all of the players on the team, it seems like it's 16:00 in the 2nd half before ANYONE can figure out who's playing tonite and who's useless. Same again with this game, but the combo was found and they won it.
Second thought - Buzz has certain combos he never uses.
Dawson never plays with other freshmen (imho - bad, I think it would be exciting)
Gardner Otoule is not happening any more (bad experiment)
But, there are some good combos as well:
Mayo/Jake (shooting and spacing)
Burton/JJJ (high energy)
Burton/Gardner (rebounding)
And, there are some inadvertent combinations that are failures:
Taylor/Gardner (Taylor hogs the ball and the low post)
Derrick/Dawson (Why? - if Dawson is on, get Derrick out)
Taylor/Anderson (Looks good on paper, but no offense)
I hope Buzz figures these out and gets more of the good combos on the court together.
Against Georgetown, Taylor and Gardner were an extremely effective combination. Buzz played a high-post/low-post offense, and the two moved around a lot, with one playing the high post on one possession and then rotating to the low on the next. Both can hit that shot from the FT line, and Gardner is a good passer from there. Those two can't play with Burton on the court, too, and maybe Gardner/Taylor can only be effective in limited doses, but it can work. I know because it has!
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 05, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
Why are we even talking about Buzz's job?
I wonder what lineups Coach K and Calipari would use to save their jobs.
Quote from: LittleMurs on February 05, 2014, 08:56:12 AM
"If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts."
This is just not true. In Jamil's worst efforts, he is a no show and/or gets into foul trouble quickly. Juan has had a few better outings than that. Jake's second half against Arizona State was certainly better than a few Mayo outings where he hogged the ball, shot poorly and made more than his share of turnovers.
Agree 100%. In fact, Mayo's game against St. John's was about as bad as he could be (0 points, 4 TOs and a flagrant). Jake, on the other hand, shot 4-7 from the floor with three 3s and scored 11 points and that wasn't his best game of the season.
Auggie
My point is simple, are we doing our best to win games or we have learning experience season? IMO we have sacrificed wins for whatever reason. Last night he stuck with a lineup, a strange one, that worked and we won. Much of this season has been changing players every minute or two and that has not worked well.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 09:06:12 AM
Auggie
My point is simple, are we doing our best to win games or we have learning experience season? IMO we have sacrificed wins for whatever reason. Last night he stuck with a lineup, a strange one, that worked and we won. Much of this season has been changing players every minute or two and that has not worked well.
Just like every other coach in the country, Buzz has one goal...
(http://www.farkriffic.com/gif02/hermedwards_youplaytowinthegame.gif)
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 09:06:12 AM
Auggie
My point is simple, are we doing our best to win games or we have learning experience season? IMO we have sacrificed wins for whatever reason. Last night he stuck with a lineup, a strange one, that worked and we won. Much of this season has been changing players every minute or two and that has not worked well.
This is just the third or so post that has dared to mention Buzz's (warm? hot? could be getting not cold?) seat. I don't know why people need to even bring it up to make their point, unless they're simply trying to get attention. I also think it hurts any point you were trying to make, because it's such a provocative (and bad) suggestion.
Guys--
For the record I am giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt for being quirky and this being learning lesson. If indeed he feels he is giving team best chance to win this season it is a failure. Picked to win new BE and have only beat one BE with winning record, brutal NC performance, especially with what OSU and UW have done of late and not one quality win.
I will stick with my premise and move on.
Auggie
There in NO HOT HOT SEAT at MU for Buzz or anyone else. The question was hypothetical.
Goose,
At St Johns I think the game was essentially over at halftime. Maybe we have a 2% chance of winning with Jamil and Todd playing in the second half instead of a 1% chance but really what's the difference? Sometimes guys learn lessons sitting on the bench. Last night both Jamil and Todd both played with an urgency that wasn't there on Saturday, so I would say mission accomplished.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 09:20:43 AM
Guys--
For the record I am giving Buzz the benefit of the doubt for being quirky and this being learning lesson. If indeed he feels he is giving team best chance to win this season it is a failure. Picked to win new BE and have only beat one BE with winning record, brutal NC performance, especially with what OSU and UW have done of late and not one quality win.
I will stick with my premise and move on.
Auggie
There in NO HOT HOT SEAT at MU for Buzz or anyone else. The question was hypothetical.
So many flaws to this post. Where to begin?
First of all, there are only 4 BE teams with winning records. Sure, MU has lost to 3 of them but two of those teams are currently ranked #6 and #12 in the country and the other game was on the road.
MU's non-conf performance was brutal? Really? Brutal? They lost 3 games to teams in the top 20 RPI, others to #28 and #47 with only one of those losses being at home. They had a really tough schedule, played several down-to-the-wire games but unfortunately couldn't close. Was it disappointing? Sure, but it was hardly "brutal." Also, GW is a quality win.
MU played OSU nearly 3 months ago and Wisconsin 2 months ago. A lot can change in that amount of time. Both teams are still top 20 in RPI.
Question for you: Why would Buzz, or any coach for that matter, not be trying ti win every game?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 05, 2014, 09:04:10 AM
Agree 100%. In fact, Mayo's game against St. John's was about as bad as he could be (0 points, 4 TOs and a flagrant). Jake, on the other hand, shot 4-7 from the floor with three 3s and scored 11 points and that wasn't his best game of the season.
Oh ye of infinite basketball wisdom Merritt - Do you believe Jake Thomas is a better basketball player than Todd Mayo?
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 10:24:33 AM
Oh ye of infinite basketball wisdom Merritt - Do you believe Jake Thomas is a better basketball player than Todd Mayo?
No and I never said that. To say that Mayo's worst is better than Jake's best (which is what I was responding to) is just flat-out wrong.
Lenny
100% agree and that was my point. Saturday's learning lesson meant more than a W and I believe other games have had similar theme. Nothing wrong with lessons being taught, even at expense of a win. Al always said there were good losses. No coach wants to lose, but coaches with no pressure have luxury of taking one for the team.
Merritt
If you are preseason favorite to win an elite conference and you strike out it is brutal. If UW was preseason pick to win Big10 and did what we did you would be blating them and rightfully so. We are all laughing at Bucky now but when they beat MU they were highly regarded on here.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 10:34:07 AM
Merritt
If you are preseason favorite to win an elite conference and you strike out it is brutal. If UW was preseason pick to win Big10 and did what we did you would be blating them and rightfully so. We are all laughing at Bucky now but when they beat MU they were highly regarded on here.
MU being the Big East preseason favorite makes losing non-conf games to good teams brutal?
Also, other than for one Saturday in December, I don't follow Wisconsin basketball.
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 10:24:33 AM
Oh ye of infinite basketball wisdom Merritt - Do you believe Jake Thomas is a better basketball player than Todd Mayo?
No. But if the Todd Mayo of the St John's game is the Todd Mayo du jour, then I want Jake out there. You may have noticed he was on the floor during the big run last night.
Maybe it is a coincidence but when Mayo has a good/great game we seem to win and when Thomas does .... well it does not seem to matter much
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on February 05, 2014, 08:10:38 AM
Because they're inconsistent! He's trying to find combinations that work because he doesn't know what he's going to get from night-to-night.
Do you remember I think it was two years ago when DJO and Jae had 80% of the SOTG awards? That isn't happening this year because Buzz can't figure out who's going to show up on any given night. That is why he has been running in oddball line ups and getting a lot of guys playing time.
23 games in and your defending Buzz for trying to find a rotation. It's not even worth a discussion with you. When buzz looks back he'll even say he messed up this year. I'm a buzz guy, but he's doubling down on bad decisions. It's not coincidence that the team performs when he settles with a rotation in the second half.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 05, 2014, 12:05:18 PM
23 games in and your defending Buzz for trying to find a rotation. It's not even worth a discussion with you. When buzz looks back he'll even say he messed up this year. I'm a buzz guy, but he's doubling down on bad decisions. It's not coincidence that the team performs when he settles with a rotation in the second half.
What should he have done differently? Be specific.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on February 05, 2014, 12:05:18 PM
23 games in and your defending Buzz for trying to find a rotation. It's not even worth a discussion with you. When buzz looks back he'll even say he messed up this year. I'm a buzz guy, but he's doubling down on bad decisions. It's not coincidence that the team performs when he settles with a rotation in the second half.
Well geez...I wonder why he settles on a rotation in the second half, and why that rotation seems to differ from game to game.
Hmmmm....
Merritt
If you do not follow top 20 basketball how can you make valid points on any team? Obviously there needs to be a bar that you compare MU to to make your point. Also, if you are preseason conference pick, presason 25 team and expectations are high the NC performance is graded differently. I have seen posts on Scoop regarding UWGB and their success and I am guessing those posts are based off UWGB having lower expectations going into a season.
Quote from: PBRme on February 05, 2014, 11:59:37 AM
Maybe it is a coincidence but when Mayo has a good/great game we seem to win and when Thomas does .... well it does not seem to matter much
I'm not singling you out, you just had the last Mayo/Thomas response. The original point was Mayo's worst performance is better than Jake's best performance. That statement is about as wrong as wrong could get. Is Mayo better than Jake? Yes. But Jake's best performance is 10000000000 times better than Mayo's worst performance. There is no discussion or argument to this. It's just fact.
Quote from: jesmu84 on February 05, 2014, 01:20:59 PM
I'm not singling you out, you just had the last Mayo/Thomas response. The original point was Mayo's worst performance is better than Jake's best performance. That statement is about as wrong as wrong could get. Is Mayo better than Jake? Yes. But Jake's best performance is 10000000000 times better than Mayo's worst performance. There is no discussion or argument to this. It's just fact.
I agree with this 10000%
also to the clowns that beg for a shorter rotation. Who the hell do you want those players to be??? This board is so schizophrenic it is absurd. Jake has a good game he needs to play more, Derrick has a good game derrick good, derrick has a poor game, John dawson is the savior. todd mayo has 4 turnovers a flagrant fould and zero points and he is abad teammate , Buzz needs to cut him, after wisconsin, no place in the program for him. After last night he needs to start and play 30. otule good then bad. Ox cant play d , but has to be on the court.
WOW!! umm our team is undertalented and wholly inconsitant. Those are the 2 tell tale signs of a average team. Any of you geniuses think Buzz might be looking for how will show up on a game to game basis ??? he showed last night and in games and years in the past that if he does find that 7-8-9 man rotaion he will go with it. it hasnt been found by Buzz or any of Buzzes naysayers on this board. hell half the posters were ready to annoint Juan Anderson a month ago and now the same people want him to transfer
I could argue that Jake's poor performances, which are more than one, have cost us games and his best has not one us a game yet. Todd's worst, usually in very little playing time, may have been a part of us losing games and hisbest has won games for us and this does not include the 10 points in 34 seconds to keep us in game against #6 team in the country.
To me it is pretty simple, the SOTG is voted on by Scoopers and Mayo has 3 (not sure if updated) and Jake 0. That is a fact printed on Scoop sidebar. Anyone that feels the Jake is in same discussion with Mayo as basketball player does not know the game. Note--that is coming from a guy who is not a big Mayo fan.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 05, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
Why are we even talking about Buzz's job?
This was my 1st thought. 2nd was WTF. 3rd was what an idiot.
Remember the good ole days when people thought that Buzz didn't play enough players?
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14176.0
Sultan
He had the players to play back then and he chose the 7 that gave us best chance to win. He was not a two time S16 and one E8 coach then and pressure was on to get W's. My whole point on this thread.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 01:50:39 PM
Sultan
He had the players to play back then and he chose the 7 that gave us best chance to win. He was not a two time S16 and one E8 coach then and pressure was on to get W's. My whole point on this thread.
My point in posting that link is that people complained about short rotations...now they complain about long rotations. No matter what Buzz does people here will bitch for some reason or other.
Sultan
Valid point. My whole point here is that success allows coaches to do different things. If this whole season is a life lesson for the young guys I am cool with it. IMO the goal has not to win at all cost and cool with that as well. I am trying to figure out the plan is for this season. Granted Buzz's goal is none of my business. I am trying to find a silver lining in this season and struggling to do so.
If you ask me, it's near impossible (well, not smart anyway) to come up with a regular 8 man rotation on this team. Other than Jamil, we don't have guys who are flat out better than other guys at positions. Usually you're better off with Gardner, but there are occasions where Otule is what we need. Good Todd > Good Jake, Bad Todd < Bad Jake, etc.
The roster just doesn't lend itself to a standard arrangement of minutes. There is not just one right way to do things. Buzz has always adapted our style to fit the personnel. He is doing what he has to do. Only other option is giving up and playing the young guys with a look to the future, and I don't think that is right.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 01:35:34 PM
I could argue that Jake's poor performances, which are more than one, have cost us games and his best has not one us a game yet. Todd's worst, usually in very little playing time, may have been a part of us losing games and hisbest has won games for us and this does not include the 10 points in 34 seconds to keep us in game against #6 team in the country.
To me it is pretty simple, the SOTG is voted on by Scoopers and Mayo has 3 (not sure if updated) and Jake 0. That is a fact printed on Scoop sidebar. Anyone that feels the Jake is in same discussion with Mayo as basketball player does not know the game. Note--that is coming from a guy who is not a big Mayo fan.
Ok.... No disagreement from anything you said here.
But, once again, that wasn't the original statement/argument. The original statement was "If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts. "
Again, this is a false statement. Period. You can't argue for it being true. Mayo's worst performance, say against St. Johns, is not better than Jake's best performance, say against ASU. Regardless of the outcome of the game. Mayo's worst individual performance is not better than Jake's best individual performance regardless of team outcome. I'm not sure if you're not understanding your original statement or you're moving the goalposts repeatedly or you just can't admit you were wrong.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on February 05, 2014, 08:20:03 AM
While watching the St. John's game, did Todd Mayo give you any indication that he was poised to put this team on his back and lead a come-from-behind victory 3 days later? Did you watch Jamil get benched in that game and think that he was going to be the team's primary offense in the first half of the next game?
This team is wildly inconsistent. If the versions of Mayo and Jamil who played last night had played every game, this season would look very different.
As I said yesterday before the game - yes.
Buzz benched them both for a reason - to send a message to the upperclassmen that you play hard and smart or you don't play.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 08:50:41 AM
Merritt
If beating St. John's meant saving his job I highly doubt that Jamil and Mayo would have sat the 2nd half. Their worst efforts are better than Juan's an Jake's best efforts. Buzz has earned the right to do what he seems fit and he is doing that this season. This is a strange season and the constant changes in lineups have made it even more strange.
For the record, this is not the first time an MU coach has made similar decisions. Al put a walk on, in OT, in during a must win game in late '77 and we lost. Rick flat out told guys that they would get limited minutes at best prior to the season because he was going to play lesser talented guys. Coaches that earned their stripes are in position to do different things than guys fighting for their jobs.
I have ZERO problem with what Buzz is doing, especially now because probably a lost season already. If something positive come out of this season all the better. But, to think that Jamil and Todd sitting 2nd half Saturday gave us best chance to win I think is beyond crazy.
Good post. Except I may disagree with the last sentence. Buzz thought guys who demonstrated that they wanted to win gave us the best chance to win. And clearly there was
NO fight in Todd & Jamil in the 1st half.
Quote from: Goose on February 05, 2014, 01:35:34 PM
I could argue that Jake's poor performances, which are more than one, have cost us games and his best has not one us a game yet. Todd's worst, usually in very little playing time, may have been a part of us losing games and hisbest has won games for us and this does not include the 10 points in 34 seconds to keep us in game against #6 team in the country.
To me it is pretty simple, the SOTG is voted on by Scoopers and Mayo has 3 (not sure if updated) and Jake 0. That is a fact printed on Scoop sidebar. Anyone that feels the Jake is in same discussion with Mayo as basketball player does not know the game. Note--that is coming from a guy who is not a big Mayo fan.
+1 million
I think what he's trying to say is that along with Todd's p!$$ poor performance against St. John's everyone else stunk up the court as well until they called off the dogs late in the 2nd half and Wilson scored uncontested lay ups. EVERYONE stunk against St. John's...
Quote from: tower912 on February 05, 2014, 11:52:10 AM
No. But if the Todd Mayo of the St John's game is the Todd Mayo du jour, then I want Jake out there. You may have noticed he was on the floor during the big run last night.
The Todd Mayo of St. John's is often times the Jake Thomas we got 75% of the time. There is ZERO reason why Jake Thomas should ever get more minutes than Todd Mayo. I've said before Jake at least serves the purpose of spacing the floor, and that has some benefit to the team offensively, along with his ability to hit 3 point shots...so I'm not a complete Jake hater - but am one, when he gets way more minutes than Mayo..or his minutes are coming at the expense of Mayo..
The point with Todd is that he's FAR more talented than Jake, yet plays on average 6-7 less minutes per game than Jake, can't "earn" the starting spot, and historically Buzz yanks him in and out of the lineup like a Yo-Yo...and thus you get inconsistent play. Ironically, Buzz played Mayo ALL of the 2nd half and surprise, surprise...Todd played well.
Sure would be nice if Buzz gave the guys with the talent the longest leashes...and not those with the least....which is the way its been this year.
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 03:03:56 PM
The Todd Mayo of St. John's is often times the Jake Thomas we got 75% of the time. There is ZERO reason why Jake Thomas should ever get more minutes than Todd Mayo. I've said before Jake at least serves the purpose of spacing the floor, and that has some benefit to the team offensively, along with his ability to hit 3 point shots...so I'm not a complete Jake hater - but am one, when he gets way more minutes than Mayo..or his minutes are coming at the expense of Mayo..
The point with Todd is that he's FAR more talented than Jake, yet plays on average 6-7 less minutes per game than Jake, can't "earn" the starting spot, and historically Buzz yanks him in and out of the lineup like a Yo-Yo...and thus you get inconsistent play. Ironically, Buzz played Mayo ALL of the 2nd half and surprise, surprise...Todd played well.
Sure would be nice if Buzz gave the guys with the talent the longest leashes...and not those with the least....which is the way its been this year.
I partially agree. Jake should not be on the floor with Derrick.
I like him out there with Mayo and Burton. He keeps on guy occupied all the time so Todd and Deonte have more room in the paint.
Quote from: brandx on February 05, 2014, 03:07:19 PM
I partially agree. Jake should not be on the floor with Derrick.
I like him out there with Mayo and Burton. He keeps on guy occupied all the time so Todd and Deonte have more room in the paint.
Nobody should be. ;D
But...if it has to be...that Derrick is on the floor....Jake has to have Mayo on the floor...and Jamil or Burton. Cannot have what we had for about 15 games this season - Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Chris...need at least 2 very talented offensive threats on the court with Jake and Derrick..to help extract Jake's value.
Plus minus for last night.....Otule much better then Gardner
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/04/butler-62-marquette-69
Quote from: MuMark on February 05, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
Plus minus for last night.....Otule much better then Gardner
http://statsheet.com/mcb/games/2014/02/04/butler-62-marquette-69
According to +/-, our best lineup was unsurprisingly:
Derrick
Mayo
Thomas
Burton
Otule
More surprisingly, it also said that the three best players on the court were:
Otule +15
Thomas +15
D Wilson +11
You may like Mayo/Burton's offense but that doesn't happen without the little things that the others do
Ners
I am going to let you fight the battle, but you do seem to be correct to me:)
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 03:33:05 PM
Nobody should be. ;D
But...if it has to be...that Derrick is on the floor....Jake has to have Mayo on the floor...and Jamil or Burton. Cannot have what we had for about 15 games this season - Derrick, Jake, Juan, Jamil, Chris...need at least 2 very talented offensive threats on the court with Jake and Derrick..to help extract Jake's value.
I'll take a permanent posting ban if you quit talking about Derrick Wilson.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on February 05, 2014, 01:52:32 PM
My point in posting that link is that people complained about short rotations...now they complain about long rotations. No matter what Buzz does people here will bitch for some reason or other.
Somehow I think that you have hit upon the essential nature of MUScoup during a disappointing season.
Quote from: Ners on February 05, 2014, 03:03:56 PM
The Todd Mayo of St. John's is often times the Jake Thomas we got 75% of the time. There is ZERO reason why Jake Thomas should ever get more minutes than Todd Mayo. I've said before Jake at least serves the purpose of spacing the floor, and that has some benefit to the team offensively, along with his ability to hit 3 point shots...so I'm not a complete Jake hater - but am one, when he gets way more minutes than Mayo..or his minutes are coming at the expense of Mayo..
The point with Todd is that he's FAR more talented than Jake, yet plays on average 6-7 less minutes per game than Jake, can't "earn" the starting spot, and historically Buzz yanks him in and out of the lineup like a Yo-Yo...and thus you get inconsistent play. Ironically, Buzz played Mayo ALL of the 2nd half and surprise, surprise...Todd played well.
Sure would be nice if Buzz gave the guys with the talent the longest leashes...and not those with the least....which is the way its been this year.
Okay, I'll use delusional, again. You think that Todd is more talented, you want to see him play more, but you realize that his consistency is a barrier to that. If consistency is somehow Todd's fault, then that hurts your argument. So, your mind needs to find a way to somehow not make it Todd's fault.
Oh yeah, Buzz yanks him like a yo-yo and
that's why Todd is inconsistent. Yeah, that's the ticket!
Maybe Buzz yanks him like a yo-yo because
he is inconsistent. Or maybe Todd freelances too much and gets away from Buzz's game planning. And just maybe that's why Todd has good games on occasion, because Buzz gets him focused on doing what the team needs him to do. Nah, that can't be. That would make Buzz smarter than you.