Without a doubt we need his scoring talent, but he looks clueless most of the time on defense.
Even if this is true, it seems odd to be ripping Gardner given all that happened yesterday.
part of what happened yesterday was his defense,
Wrongo.
When your Lock down Point Guard is getting his ass kicked off the dribble, this created defensive breakdowns that Gardner and other bigs have to absorb.
Excellent point. De Wilson's defense is terrible this year. It's still difficult to understand why Dawson doesn't play at least 30 minutes and De Wilson 10 minutes. Dawson is clearly a much better player. Along the same line, Taylor should play at least 30 minutes and Otule 10 or less minutes.
Totally untrue. Guarded by Gardner, a wastebasket couldn't even get the ball out of itself without help.
Quote from: mu72warrior on January 26, 2014, 09:41:38 AM
part of what happened yesterday was his defense,
This ties back to a lot of what I have tried to articulate with Wilson. The team has a lot of holes throughout so you can't blame one person. I don't share the same level of animosity but Gardner does get exposed in this area.
Gardner is a very good and skilled offensive player but we can all agree that he is not the most athletic, hence his below the rim style of play. ON Defense, he is a close to the basket post, space taking, player. When Gardner needs to guard on the perimeter we take him out of his comfort zone. When we play a team that has an athletic 4 that plays the perimeter, Gardner is a liability on defense. When Gardner plays the 5, this liability is limited because most opposing centers are not known to be lights out 3pt shooters.
When we play the Oxtule lineup, Gardner plays the 4 while Otule plays the 5. We are now putting Gardner into a weaker position because he has to play a more athletic lineup defensively and offensively we just create spacing issue as Otule is not an outside the lane player.
The return of Taylor, I believe, has helped resolve this challenge to a certain degree. We have shown vastly superior offensive output since his extended return. Taylor now plays with both Otule and Gardner. When he plays he can take the more athletic 4 on defense while allowing Gardner or Otule to play the 5. He can also step out to 15 ft and hit a jumper. Taylor is still not 100% but as he gets healthier we will see him more. I think with his return our offense will be better as you won't have either two guys contending for the same spot or pushing Gardner away from his strength.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 26, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
Wrongo.
When your Lock down Point Guard is getting his ass kicked off the dribble, this created defensive breakdowns that Gardner and other bigs have to absorb.
Yep...Gardner's guy had five points, at least when we weren't making him guard a guard by putting Otule out there with him. Yet we expect him to also guard the quick guards that made ours look foolish, while also exerting everything he had on the offensive end to score 29 without committing a turnover, which was necessary to keep pace because our starting guards were outscored 40-6? Let's just ask the guy to cure cancer instead of wearing the biggest pink shirt to raise awareness for it.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 26, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
Wrongo.
When your Lock down Point Guard is getting his ass kicked off the dribble, this created defensive breakdowns that Gardner and other bigs have to absorb.
In OT, the part that cost us the game, it was our 2G who was getting his ass kicked off the dribble. I do not subscribe to the DWilson is a lock down defender club but at least call out the right player.
Villanova played a 4 guard lineup and when Gardner played the 4 he had challenges playing an athletic guard. This is what Buzz is trying balance across the entire team. Each player helps and hurts at the same time.
Quote from: chapman on January 26, 2014, 10:09:12 AM
Yep...Gardner's guy had five points, at least when we weren't making him guard a guard by putting Otule out there with him. Yet we expect him to also guard the quick guards that made ours look foolish, while also exerting everything he had on the offensive end to score 29 without committing a turnover, which was necessary to keep pace because our starting guards were outscored 40-6? Let's just ask the guy to cure cancer instead of wearing the biggest pink shirt to raise awareness for it.
What??? Who was Gardner's "guy"? Ochefu? Who was Gardner's "guy" for the 13 minutes he played when Ochefu wasn't even in the game? Hell, Chris probably guarded Ochefu for some of his 16 minutes...who was Gardner's "guy" then? It's not nearly as simple as looking up the other team's center in the box score.
Let's face it. Gardner is great on offense and a liability on defense. Watching him try to guard a pick and roll is just brutal. His help defense is non-existent. He was put in a terrible position yesterday both by Buzz (he shouldn't be asked to guard anybody on the perimeter) and by the failure of our guards to prevent penetration.
That being said, this team would be just awful without him. He is this team in a microcosm. Good (in his case great) at one thing and pretty pedestrian/poor at everything else. That's why this team struggles. And there are no easy fixes with this roster...otherwise Buzz would have figured it out by now (at least based on history).
Quote from: BallBoy on January 26, 2014, 10:15:55 AM
In OT, the part that cost us the game, it was our 2G who was getting his ass kicked off the dribble. I do not subscribe to the DWilson is a lock down defender club but at least call out the right player.
Villanova played a 4 guard lineup and when Gardner played the 4 he had challenges playing an athletic guard. This is what Buzz is trying balance across the entire team. Each player helps and hurts at the same time.
Wilson was moved off the kid because he could not handle him. And guess what--the guy he was guarding beat his ass down the floor to hit what could have been the game winner. I am calling out the right guy, sunshine.
He is not a lock down defender, he is not a game changer--he is a competent back up PG.
If Gardner is not good at guarding the 4, but is adequate at guarding the 5, then one might ask, what type of coach would have him defend the 4? Would logic not dictate that the defense scheme have Gardner guard the 5?
It might be well to remember that the Warriors could have won yesterday. It strikes me that most of the post game chat is based on the premise that the best 5 are not on the floor together.
Personally, I think Coach Williams, in his effort to reward his hard working practice players, may actually be doing a disservice to some of them.
For example, D. Wilson was gassed at the end of the game. His legs were gone. Chennault blew right past him at the end of regulation. It is obvious Derrick can go hard, and play lock-down defense when he plays 15-20 minutes a game, as he did his first two years. It is just as obvious, because of the intensity with which has to play to over-come certain physical limitations, that he cannot keep up the high quality defense for 35 minutes.
The key to any team is making the whole more than the sum of its parts.
I do not think it fair to the young man, the team, or the fans, to ask something of a player, no matter how willing he may be, that the player cannot do.
I think that when a player is so obviously abysmal on offense, some on this board attempt to perpetuate the myth that those players are good defenders. Derrick is not a good defender. Juan is not a good defender.
The last play of regulation was just about the worst example of one on one defending I have ever seen. Derrick gives up the sideline, does not turn his man once, gives up the baseline and gives up what should have been the game winner (but for a bad call by the ref). This was done in what, four seconds?
Those who act like we would be worse off on defense with Dawson are just wrong. Maybe Derrick is a better rebounder, that's about it.
To claim otherwise, you must be related to DW. Or you are Buzz.
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on January 26, 2014, 11:12:51 AM
It is obvious Derrick can go hard, and play lock-down defense when he plays 15-20 minutes a game, as he did his first two years. It is just as obvious, because of the intensity with which has to play to over-come certain physical limitations, that he cannot keep up the high quality defense for 35 minutes.
This I mostly agree with, though I still call him a good (but not great) defender. @ Butler he seemed to be fine on defense until he had played about 25min. And then his guy just started going around him with ease.
Hahahahaha Davante goes for 29 and 13
Todd puts up 10 pts in about a minute
Ball boy and AtL still go to extreme lengths to defend Derrick freaking Wilson and call out our two best players.
Please tell me you two are trolls.
Gardner had a great offensive outing but I'm not going to rip his defense because 1) I kow he's an average defender, 2) he's slow and not that tall (his girth makes up for some of it though), and 3) Nova's frontcourt didn't roast us, their backcourt did.
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on January 26, 2014, 11:12:51 AM
If Gardner is not good at guarding the 4, but is adequate at guarding the 5, then one might ask, what type of coach would have him defend the 4? Would logic not dictate that the defense scheme have Gardner guard the 5?
These are the types of decisions that coaches have to make every game. Those decisions occur happen in everyone's job.
When you look at MU's line up, you have to look at how each piece is going to impact the next. If Buzz doesn't play Gardner we lose his offense. Not good. So he starts to move players to different spots. An outcome of that is getting more offense but your defense suffers. In some cases you really don't have an option because you don't have a better option. If we play Gardner exclusively at the five that means we have (prior to Taylor) to play Jamil, Juan or someone else at the 4. Maybe Jamil is the best at the three. Not playing Gardner means you lose a major cog of your offense.
At the end, you want to have a team that is balanced enough to score points but not giving up points every time. Or you need a team that is so offensively loaded they can outscore the other team.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 26, 2014, 12:13:42 PM
Ball boy and AtL still go to extreme lengths to defend Derrick freaking Wilson and call out our two best players.
You have not been paying attention to a single thing I have said. I have not stated ever than Derrick Wilson is without fault. I have said he is best option that position. I will also say Gardner is not without fault but he is also our best option. My contention from day one has always been you cannot blame/praise one player for the team output which you and Ners constantly do. If we won at GU it must have been Dawson. If we lose it must be Wilson. I have been defending Wilson only as your scapegoat. The fact remains in 9 of our games we still would have lost with or without him. If that is the case then he can't be the only problem.
Our best offensive player, Gardner, has his own defensive weaknesses. Do you agree with that statement? If not then you are blind or unwilling to face facts.
I will go on record right now that I am willing to overlook Gardner's defensive issues because he is our best option on offense. I have to take the bad with the good. Same with Wilson, JWilson, Mayo, Thomas, Taylor, Otule, Juan, JJJ, Dawson, et al because those are my options. If I could replace the entire team with Wade, Diener, Noack, et all, I would but their eligibility is up.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 26, 2014, 09:56:52 AM
Excellent point. De Wilson's defense is terrible this year. It's still difficult to understand why Dawson doesn't play at least 30 minutes and De Wilson 10 minutes. Dawson is clearly a much better player. Along the same line, Taylor should play at least 30 minutes and Otule 10 or less minutes.
Agreed....
Dawson comes down hits a 3 from the parking lot......
The announcer says we are watchin this kid devlop in front of our eyes...
The crowd goes wild.... 2 minutes later hes on the bench for literally the rest of the game....
While archiediacono runs around the starter like pistol pete...
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 26, 2014, 12:13:42 PM
Hahahahaha Davante goes for 29 and 13
Todd puts up 10 pts in about a minute
Ball boy and AtL still go to extreme lengths to defend Derrick freaking Wilson and call out our two best players.
Please tell me you two are trolls.
Oh brother.
I am not "calling out" Gardner. I haven't mentioned Todd once.
Gardner had a good game - on offense - which is the only kind of good game he can have. He leaves a lot to be desired on defense. It is what it is, and is an example of what is wrong with this team.
Are you seriously suggesting that Gardner is good on defense?
I would accept his lack of defense if it appeared he was working hard at it. The kid is highly skilled in many areas, but is MIA on D. I find it funny that our young guys and Todd do not get more minutes because of lack of D and the worst defender plays big minutes.
I do not buy that the young guys are not playing because of being liability on D. I stick with Buzz being stubborn and playing guys who are not high D1 players. Coach can what he wants, but very frustrating to watch.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on January 26, 2014, 12:03:18 PM
This I mostly agree with, though I still call him a good (but not great) defender. @ Butler he seemed to be fine on defense until he had played about 25min. And then his guy just started going around him with ease.
Yes you guys are on to something there. It also makes sense that some of Gardner's "Defensive lapses", are caused by him getting gassed also, carrying around 280 pounds for 35 plus minutes per game, helping out when guards are getting beat to the basket, and chasing on the perimeter on switches--which is stupid. I know, every other team does it so we should. So if we want to make excuses for Derrick, then those excuses should be more applicable for Ox, who is the heaviest guy on the team.
It is tiring that some people blame Ox as a poor defender, but praise Derrick as a "lock down" defender, or say nothing about Ja. Wilson's ole defense. Ox is average as a defender, but has shown more improvement in his game on both ends of the court than Otule has in 6 years, or Ja. Wilson in 5 years. And what is funny, I have never heard Buzz claim that Ox is a "game changer" or the best defender he has ever coached, which he has said about De. Wilson, and then we see what he is doing in games.
Quote from: BallBoy on January 26, 2014, 12:44:00 PM
You have not been paying attention to a single thing I have said. I have not stated ever than Derrick Wilson is without fault. I have said he is best option that position. I will also say Gardner is not without fault but he is also our best option. My contention from day one has always been you cannot blame/praise one player for the team output which you and Ners constantly do. If we won at GU it must have been Dawson. If we lose it must be Wilson. I have been defending Wilson only as your scapegoat. The fact remains in 9 of our games we still would have lost with or without him. If that is the case then he can't be the only problem.
Our best offensive player, Gardner, has his own defensive weaknesses. Do you agree with that statement? If not then you are blind or unwilling to face facts.
I will go on record right now that I am willing to overlook Gardner's defensive issues because he is our best option on offense. I have to take the bad with the good. Same with Wilson, JWilson, Mayo, Thomas, Taylor, Otule, Juan, JJJ, Dawson, et al because those are my options. If I could replace the entire team with Wade, Diener, Noack, et all, I would but their eligibility is up.
Blame 1 player? I think Juan, Chris, Jake and Derrick all suck. And I'm being nice and objective when I say suck.
It's actually mind blowing Chris and Juan even play in games. Jake and Derrick wouldn't "suck" if used properly(not as starters).
Quote from: Goose on January 26, 2014, 12:54:20 PM
I would accept his lack of defense if it appeared he was working hard at it. The kid is highly skilled in many areas, but is MIA on D. I find it funny that our young guys and Todd do not get more minutes because of lack of D and the worst defender plays big minutes.
I do not buy that the young guys are not playing because of being liability on D. I stick with Buzz being stubborn and playing guys who are not high D1 players. Coach can what he wants, but very frustrating to watch.
The young guys don't play because they aren't yet consistently doing what Buzz wants them to do. Sometimes it's defense. Sometimes it's jacking up bad shots.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 26, 2014, 01:30:07 PM
The young guys don't play because they aren't yet consistently doing what Buzz wants them to do. Sometimes it's defense. Sometimes it's jacking up bad shots.
Ok then what the hell is wrong with buzz?
Derrick, Jake and Chris are doing what buzz wants? THIS is what he wants?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 26, 2014, 01:30:07 PM
The young guys don't play because they aren't yet consistently doing what Buzz wants them to do. Sometimes it's defense. Sometimes it's jacking up bad shots.
I wonder if Buzz wants our offensively challenged pg to try and throw down an alleyoop dunk smh...the upperclassmen get a pass when they make mistakes, but when a freshman do they get a quick hook. Everyone on the team should be held to the same standards and I don't see it. Maybe JJJ should just not shoot like Jake yesterday and that's when he can expect 30 min a game ;D
Quote from: mubuzz on January 26, 2014, 02:18:58 PM
I wonder if Buzz wants our offensively challenged pg to try and throw down an alleyoop dunk smh...the upperclassmen get a pass when they make mistakes, but when a freshman do they get a quick hook. Everyone on the team should be held to the same standards and I don't see it. Maybe JJJ should just not shoot like Jake yesterday and that's when he can expect 30 min a game ;D
Reminds me...
People complain about not running plays for Jake but we run one for Derrick...and it's an alley-oop! lol
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 26, 2014, 12:46:33 PM
Agreed....
Dawson comes down hits a 3 from the parking lot......
The announcer says we are watchin this kid devlop in front of our eyes...
The crowd goes wild.... 2 minutes later hes on the bench for literally the rest of the game....
While archiediacono runs around the starter like pistol pete...
He was 1-4, with 0 assists and 0 rebounds.
The team as a whole was -7 with him in for those 8 minutes. You act as if him coming in completely changed the game, but Buzz sat him anyway. We were worse with Dawson, than without him.
And I like Dawson, its just he is a Freshman and at this point lacks consistency.
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2014, 02:29:03 PM
He was 1-4, with 0 assists and 0 rebounds.
The team as a whole was -7 with him in for those 8 minutes. You act as if him coming in completely changed the game, but Buzz sat him anyway. We were worse with Dawson, than without him.
And I like Dawson, its just he is a Freshman and at this point lacks consistency.
He can't be consistent when he gets inconsistent minutes. 30 second intervals don't do it.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 26, 2014, 12:59:29 PM
Yes you guys are on to something there. It also makes sense that some of Gardner's "Defensive lapses", are caused by him getting gassed also, carrying around 280 pounds for 35 plus minutes per game, helping out when guards are getting beat to the basket, and chasing on the perimeter on switches--which is stupid. I know, every other team does it so we should. So if we want to make excuses for Derrick, then those excuses should be more applicable for Ox, who is the heaviest guy on the team.
It is tiring that some people blame Ox as a poor defender, but praise Derrick as a "lock down" defender, or say nothing about Ja. Wilson's ole defense. Ox is average as a defender, but has shown more improvement in his game on both ends of the court than Otule has in 6 years, or Ja. Wilson in 5 years. And what is funny, I have never heard Buzz claim that Ox is a "game changer" or the best defender he has ever coached, which he has said about De. Wilson, and then we see what he is doing in games.
In two paragraphs you have called out two things I have been saying. First, until some else steps up you have to live with Gardner's offense at the risk to his defense. Defense is half of the game. If Gardner's defense is suffering because of his stamina then we have to live with that if we want his offense then we have risk that outcome. I believe the emergence of Steve Taylor will only help that situation as now OTule can focus on spelling Gardner. However, during that time we need to counter at the lose of Gardner's offense. I don't know where that will come from with OTule in.
Second, every player is flawed yet the person who gets the most animosity is Derrick. Now, I agree that Wilson is not everything I want nor is he close to perfect but to lay our season at his feet is ridiculous.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 26, 2014, 11:02:23 AM
Wilson was moved off the kid because he could not handle him. And guess what--the guy he was guarding beat his ass down the floor to hit what could have been the game winner. I am calling out the right guy, sunshine.
He is not a lock down defender, he is not a game changer--he is a competent back up PG.
So we moved Mayo onto him and he couldn't stop him either. Maybe there is a reason Nova is top 10 and we aren't ranked.
Quote from: BallBoy on January 26, 2014, 02:52:33 PM
So we moved Mayo onto him and he couldn't stop him either. Maybe there is a reason Nova is top 10 and we aren't ranked.
We aren't ranked because we start 3 players who wouldn't start on the average D2 basketball team
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2014, 02:29:03 PM
He was 1-4, with 0 assists and 0 rebounds.
The team as a whole was -7 with him in for those 8 minutes. You act as if him coming in completely changed the game, but Buzz sat him anyway. We were worse with Dawson, than without him.
And I like Dawson, its just he is a Freshman and at this point lacks consistency.
The consistency that Derrick Wilson brings....... Consistent losing. I get it.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 26, 2014, 02:14:15 PM
Ok then what the hell is wrong with buzz?
Derrick, Jake and Chris are doing what buzz wants? THIS is what he wants?
Yes. Yesterday Buzz wanted the ball going inside. Derrick and Jake did that consistently yesterday. It's why Jake didn't even attempt a shot until the last 2 minutes. If you don't play the way Buzz wants you get pulled (see Dawson vs. Nova)
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 26, 2014, 03:44:59 PM
Yes. Yesterday Buzz wanted the ball going inside. Derrick and Jake did that consistently yesterday. It's why Jake didn't even attempt a shot until the last 2 minutes. If you don't play the way Buzz wants you get pulled (see Dawson vs. Nova)
Derrick missed Davante and Jamil about 10 times each yesterday.
If you want passing the ball around the 3 point arc, then Derrick is your guy.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 26, 2014, 03:44:59 PM
Yes. Yesterday Buzz wanted the ball going inside. Derrick and Jake did that consistently yesterday. It's why Jake didn't even attempt a shot until the last 2 minutes. If you don't play the way Buzz wants you get pulled (see Dawson vs. Nova)
Actually, Davante was lining up up rather high and wide to get passes and then would back his defender down to the hoop. I suspect the scorer was very kind to Derrick on some of his assists.
Quote from: BallBoy on January 26, 2014, 02:52:33 PM
So we moved Mayo onto him and he couldn't stop him either. Maybe there is a reason Nova is top 10 and we aren't ranked.
There are several: Their guards are way better than ours, and their PG is way better than ours. Guess that should settle it.
Quote from: BallBoy on January 26, 2014, 02:48:35 PM
In two paragraphs you have called out two things I have been saying. First, until some else steps up you have to live with Gardner's offense at the risk to his defense. Defense is half of the game. If Gardner's defense is suffering because of his stamina then we have to live with that if we want his offense then we have risk that outcome. I believe the emergence of Steve Taylor will only help that situation as now OTule can focus on spelling Gardner. However, during that time we need to counter at the lose of Gardner's offense. I don't know where that will come from with OTule in.
Second, every player is flawed yet the person who gets the most animosity is Derrick. Now, I agree that Wilson is not everything I want nor is he close to perfect but to lay our season at his feet is ridiculous.
I did not lay the season on Derrick although he is a big part of it. I lay it squarely where it belongs--on Buzzo. His players, his strategy, his rotations, his decsions, his big salary, his big budget. That is where the season lies and why he gets the huge cash.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on January 26, 2014, 02:27:02 PM
Reminds me...
People complain about not running plays for Jake but we run one for Derrick...and it's an alley-oop! lol
...which he missed.
Quote from: willie warrior on January 26, 2014, 04:14:49 PM
I did not lay the season on Derrick although he is a big part of it. I lay it squarely where it belongs--on Buzzo. His players, his strategy, his rotations, his decsions, his big salary, his big budget. That is where the season lies and why he gets the huge cash.
So under Buzz, we have had 6 great season and one mediocre season. Does that one season mean we should stop showing him respect? Everyone knew going into this season that we had a lot of holes. Everyone choose MU for the Big East based on the Elite 8 finish not on what was coming in.
I went back to a few of the preseason magazines. Everyone of them called out that Duane Wilson needed to step in as the lead dog for MU to hold the top spot. They also mentioned Mayo, Davante, and Jamil needing to step up.
You may not agree with Buzz but at least be respectful.
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 26, 2014, 03:32:17 PM
The consistency that Derrick Wilson brings....... Consistent losing. I get it.
With a -7, Dawson brought consistent losing yesterday too. With the exception of the Georgetown game he has not been stellar. Phenomenal potential and I would like to see him getting 15 minutes, but you have to be smart with his time.
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2014, 04:57:23 PM
With a -7, Dawson brought consistent losing yesterday too. With the exception of the Georgetown game he has not been stellar. Phenomenal potential and I would like to see him getting 15 minutes, but you have to be smart with his time.
u put -7 on him and he played 8 minutes in 30 second increments in comparison with someone who plays +30 a night... I love your logic..
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 26, 2014, 06:25:28 PM
u put -7 on him and he played 8 minutes in 30 second increments in comparison with someone who plays +30 a night... I love your logic..
Exactly.
Give Dawson Jake's minutes and see what could have been.
Yes, I think he would have been toasted, but he'd do more than just hoist up his first shot with 2 minutes remaining in the game.
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 26, 2014, 06:25:28 PM
u put -7 on him and he played 8 minutes in 30 second increments in comparison with someone who plays +30 a night... I love your logic..
Not in the Nova game. He had a good run and played nearly half of the first half. I do not believe Dawson played in the second half and still put up 8 minutes which ESPN play-by-play supports. You may be able to use this messaging in other games but not Nova.
Previous games where he had less then 10 minutes, this is a true debate.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on January 26, 2014, 06:49:26 PM
Exactly.
Give Dawson Jake's minutes and see what could have been.
Yes, I think he would have been toasted, but he'd do more than just hoist up his first shot with 2 minutes remaining in the game.
seriously? why is that a problem? they were going inside to davante and he was killing it. davante 1v1 with nova's frountcourt is going to be marquette's advantage. why have jake shooting during the game? MU didn't NEED jake to shoot, so why would he? Makes absolutely no sense.
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 26, 2014, 06:25:28 PM
u put -7 on him and he played 8 minutes in 30 second increments in comparison with someone who plays +30 a night... I love your logic..
You clearly didn't watch the game. He played over about 6 minutes in the first half in over 3 minute stretches each time. He was -3 in that first half. In the 2nd half he was in for a bit over a minute stretch and was -4.
In the first stretch in the first half he came in and on the first three possessions was beat badly by the man he was guarding. I believe 7 of the 9 points Nova scored in that stretch were scored by the guy Dawson was guarding. I remember thinking after the first possession that Buzz was going to yank him for the horrible defense, but he didn't he let him work through it till the next media timeout. I was happy with that.
Got more run later in the first half and again struggled a lot on D. Buzz gave him a lot of rope and was patient with him.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 26, 2014, 07:17:51 PM
seriously? why is that a problem? they were going inside to davante and he was killing it. davante 1v1 with nova's frountcourt is going to be marquette's advantage. why have jake shooting during the game? MU didn't NEED jake to shoot, so why would he? Makes absolutely no sense.
100% agree. The game plan was to feed Davante and the game plan worked. It was not have Jake shoot.
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2014, 07:19:35 PM
You clearly didn't watch the game. He played over about 6 minutes in the first half in over 3 minute stretches each time. He was -3 in that first half. In the 2nd half he was in for a bit over a minute stretch and was -4.
In the first stretch in the first half he came in and on the first three possessions was beat badly by the man he was guarding. I believe 7 of the 9 points Nova scored in that stretch were scored by the guy Dawson was guarding. I remember thinking after the first possession that Buzz was going to yank him for the horrible defense, but he didn't he let him work through it till the next media timeout. I was happy with that.
Got more run later in the first half and again struggled a lot on D. Buzz gave him a lot of rope and was patient with him.
You have so many false claims in this post it's ridiculous. 7 of the 9 points scored were on the man Dawson was covering?? He didn't struggle any more than our all world starting pg lol.
Quote from: mubuzz on January 26, 2014, 07:27:07 PM
You have so many false claims in this post it's ridiculous. 7 of the 9 points scored were on the man Dawson was covering?? He didn't struggle any more than our all world starting pg lol.
Please identify the false claims. All are based on the actual game footage and play-by-play on statsheet.com. Your assertions are based on blind bias and "feel" for what happened.
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2014, 07:33:16 PM
Please identify the false claims. All are based on the actual game footage and play-by-play on statsheet.com. Your assertions are based on blind bias and "feel" for what happened.
He can't because you are correct. It doesn't fit the "Derrick Sucks" narrative so what else can the guy say?
Quote from: forgetful on January 26, 2014, 07:19:35 PM
You clearly didn't watch the game. He played over about 6 minutes in the first half in over 3 minute stretches each time. He was -3 in that first half. In the 2nd half he was in for a bit over a minute stretch and was -4.
In the first stretch in the first half he came in and on the first three possessions was beat badly by the man he was guarding. I believe 7 of the 9 points Nova scored in that stretch were scored by the guy Dawson was guarding. I remember thinking after the first possession that Buzz was going to yank him for the horrible defense, but he didn't he let him work through it till the next media timeout. I was happy with that.
Got more run later in the first half and again struggled a lot on D. Buzz gave him a lot of rope and was patient with him.
Sorry I saw the game... fans in crowd yelling put Dawson in... As your starter was getting crucified by Archiediacono in overtime... I sure did see it, your claims are more than false... I Haven't seen anyone score 9 points on him this season... yet alone in 3 minutes.. stop it
Quote from: Nevada233 on January 26, 2014, 11:48:37 PM
Sorry I saw the game... fans in crowd yelling put Dawson in... As your starter was getting crucified by Archiediacono in overtime... I sure did see it, your claims are more than false... I Haven't seen anyone score 9 points on him this season... yet alone in 3 minutes.. stop it
Not sure why I am entertaining this. But for the record:
Dawson comes in: Score is 10-7.
James Bell hits a 2. (12-7).
Chennault scores 2 over Dawson. (14-9). 2 pts for Dawson's man.
Dawson's mistake lets Hilliard nails a 3. (17-12). 5 pts for Dawson's man.
Dawson gets beat bad off the dribble by Chennault who banks home a leaner. (19-14). 7 pts for Dawson's man.
Dawson comes out: Score is 19-14...-2 in a little over 3 minutes. Dawson's man score's 7 pts.
Dawson's second stint in the first half...in at 6:22 score 23-21. Out at 3:14 score 30-27. -1 for that stretch and -3 for the 1st half.
The fans calling for Dawson does not make it the right thing to do.
Quote from: chapman on January 26, 2014, 10:09:12 AM
Yep...Gardner's guy had five points, at least when we weren't making him guard a guard by putting Otule out there with him. Yet we expect him to also guard the quick guards that made ours look foolish, while also exerting everything he had on the offensive end to score 29 without committing a turnover, which was necessary to keep pace because our starting guards were outscored 40-6? Let's just ask the guy to cure cancer instead of wearing the biggest pink shirt to raise awareness for it.
Thank you! He is the best player we have by far, so while subbing in Otule for defense when we can do it is great, we've just got to get Dawson, Mayo and Gardner on the court as much as we can. Yes, Dawson will have growing pains but WOW, I just couldn't believe we were back with the old lineup after seeing how much better we can be with the lineup against Georgetown.
This deep in the season I believe we need to go Burton-Mayo-Taylor-JWilson-Gardner as the regular line-up - we just can't keep putting a lineup out there that has players the opponent does not have to guard.
Of course I'd love to see a good bit of Burton too, and Derrick, Otule and Anderson all do bring defense, so let's try more of that when we are guarding a lead. Against certain teams Jake can be a key, but Mayo can hit the three too and do other things. Love Buzz, but I believe he is so attached that he doesn't want to sit longtime players, but believe we just need a different combination right now.
Let's see if we can agree on some facts. Thomas is on the floor for his 3 pt shooting and he is slow for a guard and not a good defender. If the Buzz plan was to feed DG and not have Thomas shoot then why have him in the game. If JA is a better defender and rebounder (which he is) give Thomas the day off and play JA. Hell, Buzz could have played me and I could have scored 0 pts.
You saw a very good pg on Nova who penetrates and draws the defense to him and passes to one of the bigs for an easy shot in the lane, or goes to the basket if the defense doesn't come to him, or recognizes when a big slower defender switches to him and steps back to the 3pt line for an easy open shot (did this to DG). D. Wilson is not a good pg. Did anyone say to themselves during this game 1 time, "that was a great pass by DW". I know I didn't. He passes the ball around the perimeter probably 90% of the time. They actually gave him an assist for passing the ball to Mayo outside the 3pt arc when he made that unbelievable step-back 3 with 20 seconds left in regulation. I'm sure a few of his assists were passing the ball to DG on the perimeter and DG backing his man down into the lane and scoring down low. I don't count those as assists. A far as his rebounding, rebounds by pgs are usually catching the ball after a badly missed 3pt attempt that bounces wildly off the rim. I think I recall 1 defensive rebound that DW got down in the lane and that might have been from a missed 3 by the guy he was supposed to be guarding.
Whoever was quoting from the game tape I would love for you to revisit the tape and see how many baskets JT let up to his man, how many baskets DW gave up to his man, how many rebounds by DW were inside the lane, and how many assists by DW were passes to the post inside 8 feet from the basket. You might also count how many times DW was beat off the dribble. I think these stats might put an end the argument about minutes for DW.
IMO, if MU makes the 3 uncontested bunnies they missed they obvious win in regulation and if Mu had Villanova's pg, MU wins by 15 - 20 in regulation.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 26, 2014, 10:46:05 AM
Let's face it. Gardner is great on offense and a liability on defense. Watching him try to guard a pick and roll is just brutal. His help defense is non-existent. He was put in a terrible position yesterday both by Buzz (he shouldn't be asked to guard anybody on the perimeter) and by the failure of our guards to prevent penetration.
That being said, this team would be just awful without him.
He is this team in a microcosm. Good (in his case great) at one thing and pretty pedestrian/poor at everything else. That's why this team struggles. And there are no easy fixes with this roster...otherwise Buzz would have figured it out by now (at least based on history).
Bolded comments are right on. You want your center to provide help defense and Gardner is terrible at that. I can't imagine how scary bad our offense might be without him.
Your larger point is the simplest, most accurate analysis of what ails us. A team full of incomplete players who excel in one area, but are below average in other areas, and not a good mix to mesh together.
Quote from: murphmurphy on January 27, 2014, 06:25:53 AM
Let's see if we can agree on some facts. Thomas is on the floor for his 3 pt shooting and he is slow for a guard and not a good defender. If the Buzz plan was to feed DG and not have Thomas shoot then why have him in the game. If JA is a better defender and rebounder (which he is) give Thomas the day off and play JA. Hell, Buzz could have played me and I could have scored 0 pts.
Why Jake instead of Juan? Because the defense has to be honest on Jake and whoever is guarding him has to be on him at all times. Juan's shooting/driving is so bad that Juan's defender could easily have doubled down on Gardner when he got the ball. That's why Jake.
Quote from: murphmurphy on January 27, 2014, 06:25:53 AM
Let's see if we can agree on some facts. Thomas is on the floor for his 3 pt shooting and he is slow for a guard and not a good defender. If the Buzz plan was to feed DG and not have Thomas shoot then why have him in the game. If JA is a better defender and rebounder (which he is) give Thomas the day off and play JA. Hell, Buzz could have played me and I could have scored 0 pts.
You saw a very good pg on Nova who penetrates and draws the defense to him and passes to one of the bigs for an easy shot in the lane, or goes to the basket if the defense doesn't come to him, or recognizes when a big slower defender switches to him and steps back to the 3pt line for an easy open shot (did this to DG). D. Wilson is not a good pg. Did anyone say to themselves during this game 1 time, "that was a great pass by DW". I know I didn't. He passes the ball around the perimeter probably 90% of the time. They actually gave him an assist for passing the ball to Mayo outside the 3pt arc when he made that unbelievable step-back 3 with 20 seconds left in regulation. I'm sure a few of his assists were passing the ball to DG on the perimeter and DG backing his man down into the lane and scoring down low. I don't count those as assists. A far as his rebounding, rebounds by pgs are usually catching the ball after a badly missed 3pt attempt that bounces wildly off the rim. I think I recall 1 defensive rebound that DW got down in the lane and that might have been from a missed 3 by the guy he was supposed to be guarding.
Whoever was quoting from the game tape I would love for you to revisit the tape and see how many baskets JT let up to his man, how many baskets DW gave up to his man, how many rebounds by DW were inside the lane, and how many assists by DW were passes to the post inside 8 feet from the basket. You might also count how many times DW was beat off the dribble. I think these stats might put an end the argument about minutes for DW.
IMO, if MU makes the 3 uncontested bunnies they missed they obvious win in regulation and if Mu had Villanova's pg, MU wins by 15 - 20 in regulation.
"Thomas is on the floor for his 3 pt shooting and he is slow for a guard and not a good defender."
The "fact" is Thomas is a good defender is on the floor for that reason, not his three point shooting. MU does not play in a recreational league where players always stay on the same guy, we play a team defense where it's necessary to switch off and make the proper rotations, things that Jake excels at.
Quote from: LittleMurs on January 28, 2014, 11:43:01 AM
"Thomas is on the floor for his 3 pt shooting and he is slow for a guard and not a good defender."
The "fact" is Thomas is a good defender is on the floor for that reason, not his three point shooting. MU does not play in a recreational league where players always stay on the same guy, we play a team defense where it's necessary to switch off and make the proper rotations, things that Jake excels at.
Where were you with this gem the last couple of days?