They are bad.
It is just gross watching them, and watching people defend them.
They are the "other half of the court" unit. Yet they let leads balloon cuz they can't do either end.
It is getting ridiculous.
just posted in another thread - Buzz's "starting lineup" concept is a joke...
Can't win on this level with these cats. I'd start the freshmen and at least go down swingin'.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2013, 02:26:36 PM
Can't win on this level with these cats. I'd start the freshmen and at least go down swingin'.
Exactly. Go down swinging, maybe it works?
Worst case they get valuable experience to grow for next year and it is less of a learning curve next seson.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 02:28:11 PM
Exactly. Go down swinging, maybe it works?
Worst case they get valuable experience to grow for next year and it is less of a learning curve next seson.
Writing off this season already?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 02:29:16 PM
Writing off this season already?
If we keep going with this starting lineup? yeah? What have they gotten us? 0-4 against the only real competition and barely beatin f u ckin new Hampshire at home?
Duane Wilson on a broken leg could produce more offense.
can't watch this crap right now - very disappointing, will post after the game
Sure looks like Buzz has, hey?
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 02:30:36 PM
If we keep going with this starting lineup? yeah? What have they gotten us? 0-4 against the only real competition and barely beatin f u ckin new Hampshire at home?
Yep. It is all on the shoulders of the starting lineup. The back ups are obviously so much better.
3 fouls on Jake!!!
2 more to go!!!
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 02:31:40 PM
Yep. It is all on the shoulders of the starting lineup. The back ups are obviously so much better.
They are. Would you like to see the bench points?
Did you watch the Ohio State game? The ASU game? This game? SDSU.
every run starts with those assholes on the floor.
Do you enjoy losing or just a asinine idiot?
<sigh>
This type of bullsh*t is why I don't post during games. Calm down and make a rational argument. The fact is there aren't a lot of consistent scorers on the team on the bench outside of Davante...and he gets plenty of minutes.
See you later.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
<sigh>
This type of bullsh*t is why I don't post during games. Calm down and make a rational argument. See you later.
That was all rational. As usual you have nothing to prove me wrong.
Again, people like you who like losing are gross. YOU LOSE.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 02:36:11 PM
That was all rational. As usual you have nothing to prove me wrong.
Again, people like you who like losing are gross. YOU LOSE.
Rational people don't insult others to make their point.
Better hold them scoreless from here on out 'cause MU will struggle to get to 50
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 02:37:55 PM
Rational people don't insult others to make their point.
rational people state facts, no matter how many feelings the facts hurt in the process.
Overreaction....playing one of the best teams in the nation right now on their home court and still in the game. We're not nearly as good as previous years.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 02:38:44 PM
rational people state facts, no matter how many feelings the facts hurt in the process.
What fact do you want me to state? IN MY OPINION it isn't just on the shoulders of the starting line up. The idea that there is a ton of scoring available on the bench is false.
Notice that I can state that opinion without insulting you? Again...calm down.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 02:36:11 PM
That was all rational. As usual you have nothing to prove me wrong.
Again, people like you who like losing are gross. YOU LOSE.
Seriously, just a stupid post. Absolutely moronic assertion.
you're right, this starting lineup is working well at 5 - 4
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 02:34:29 PM
<sigh>
This type of bullsh*t is why I don't post during games. Calm down and make a rational argument. The fact is there aren't a lot of consistent scorers on the team on the bench outside of Davante...and he gets plenty of minutes.
See you later.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 07, 2013, 02:49:34 PM
Seriously, just a stupid post. Absolutely moronic assertion.
Shouldn't surprise me you have nothing concrete as usual to back your moronic obsession with losing.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 03:04:18 PM
Shouldn't surprise me you have nothing concrete as usual to back your moronic obsession with losing.
So are you going to address my opinion that there isn't scoring on the bench outside of Gardner? Or are you just going to continue insulting people who disagree with you?
Dawson and Johnson did nothing out there. Burton did barely something. Outside of that, who exactly do you think should have been out there? Flood?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 03:14:29 PM
So are you going to address my opinion that there isn't scoring on the bench outside of Gardner? Or are you just going to continue insulting people who disagree with you?
Dawson and Johnson did nothing out there. Burton did barely something. Outside of that, who exactly do you think should have been out there? Flood?
Mayo, burton, JJJ all can score the ball better than Derrick, Jake, Chris, Juan.
Every single game has gotten out of hand with that unit on the floor. Idk how many times I have to say it. Having a FEW of those guys on the floor together is FINE. All 4 of them is a disaster.
The games DO NOT lie. The record DOES NOT lie.
O and if you want to talk about insulting.
That's all Brew does to people who don't agree with his over the top homerism.
Guy could at least provide some sort of support.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 03:16:59 PM
Mayo, burton, JJJ all can score the ball better than Derrick, Jake, Chris, Juan.
Every single game has gotten out of hand with that unit on the floor. Idk how many times I have to say it. Having a FEW of those guys on the floor together is FINE. All 4 of them is a disaster.
The games DO NOT lie. The record DOES NOT lie.
Mayo was suspended.
JJJ was completely ineffective.
Burton's small offensive contribution was negated by his defensive mistakes, and Juan played much better than he did overall.
That being said, I would have no problem with JJJ starting over Jake.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 03:19:14 PM
O and if you want to talk about insulting.
That's all Brew does to people who don't agree with his over the top homerism.
Guy could at least provide some sort of support.
Don't be stupid. No one likes losing. You think any of us are happy with this result? I could give a crap less about ASU, tOSU, or SDSU. They are meaningless. Today I actually cared. So shut the hell up about people liking losing. No one likes it. We deal with it. We accept it and move on because it's a goddamn part of life. But don't you dare try to assert I'm happy with today. Because I'm not.
I saw nothing from Jake that warranted starting
Play the young guys. If Thomas keeps getting these minutes we are in big trouble. Our starting guards had more turnovers than points I think.
MU lost to a top 10 team on the road. Sucked. I want Jamil and Davante to play hard every possession. I want Todd to grow up. Checking.....nope, whining didn't change anything. Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8. Buzz didn't suddenly turn stupid. He has reasons for his starting line up.
Tower
Buzz has turned stupid, stubborn maybe.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 03:20:52 PM
Mayo was suspended.
JJJ was completely ineffective.
Burton's small offensive contribution was negated by his defensive mistakes, and Juan played much better than he did overall.
That being said, I would have no problem with JJJ starting over Jake.
I know Mayo was out today. It's been in the other games. JJJ and Burton don't get in rythmn when they are continually on the bench.
And for the talk of Burtons d. Otule gets owned countless times along with other guys in our first unit when these teams keep making runs...OSU second half, second half today and 1st half ASU.
We have nothing to lose at this point but to give bigger minutes to other guys and see if the ball happens to go in more. Davante barring foul trouble should be in 34 minutes a game.
Derrick is pretty awful on offense but it wouldn't look as bad if you didn't have guys like Jake and Juan out there with him who cant get any sort of look. I like Juan for his hustle and length but he just cant be out there with Derrick and Jake.
Jake is not only inconsistent shooting but it is magnified when he struggles to even get looks.
I love Deonte but be couldn't guard a 3rd grader today. No one can step into a 3 in rythem until the game has been decided and our spot up shooter cNt get himself open. NIT baby
Quote from: Goose on December 07, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
Tower
Buzz has turned stupid, stubborn maybe.
Wow...that is a pathetic statement.
I just don't see the point in starting a senior walk on.
All it's doing is stunting the growth and development for next years team.
CO, Thomas and Wilson can play D at this level. To make matters worse two of those three cannot score at this level. To make things worse they all play a lot.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 02:37:55 PM
Rational people don't insult others to make their point.
But you do it frequently Sultan, so I guess you are not rational.
I've actually been ok with the starters in the first half. Where the "starters" have killed us is opening the second half. OSU, ASU, SDSU and Bucky all got ahead early in the 2nd and never looked back. Ox and somebody other than Juan or Jake should be out there after halftime.
Then again, why don't we let the "starters" play like they did in the last minute? Juan and Jamil both started shooting and they were going in. If we try to get something other than Jake (not his fault today, Gasser was all over him) going at the beginning from outside, we might be better off.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 03:29:23 PM
I know Mayo was out today. It's been in the other games. JJJ and Burton don't get in rythmn when they are continually on the bench.
And for the talk of Burtons d. Otule gets owned countless times along with other guys in our first unit when these teams keep making runs...OSU second half, second half today and 1st half ASU.
We have nothing to lose at this point but to give bigger minutes to other guys and see if the ball happens to go in more. Davante barring foul trouble should be in 34 minutes a game.
Derrick is pretty awful on offense but it wouldn't look as bad if you didn't have guys like Jake and Juan out there with him who cant get any sort of look. I like Juan for his hustle and length but he just cant be out there with Derrick and Jake.
Jake is not only inconsistent shooting but it is magnified when he struggles to even get looks.
JJJ played plenty of minutes to get into a rhythm today. He. Did. Nothing.
Burton was absolutely terrible on defense today. Dekker scored on him almost at will. He has a long way to go on that end of the court.
Quote from: muhoops1 on December 07, 2013, 03:29:58 PM
I love Deonte but be couldn't guard a 3rd grader today. No one can step into a 3 in rythem until the game has been decided and our spot up shooter cNt get himself open. NIT baby
Do you understand the concept of a spot up shooter. They go to their spot and wait for others to create open opportunities for them.
Jake had a very very poor game today. But these thoughts that he should create for himself are a bit absurd, spot up shooters on other teams don't create for themselves. The offense is designed to create for them.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 02:24:58 PM
They are bad.
It is just gross watching them, and watching people defend them.
They are the "other half of the court" unit. Yet they let leads balloon cuz they can't do either end.
It is getting ridiculous.
You have to remember they are playing 4-on-5 on offense. Michigan State or Duke would struggle if they had to do the same.
There is
NO ONE running the offense - playing PG does not mean dribble the ball 25 feet from the basket for nothing. I missed about 10 minutes of the game today, but in the rest of the time I do not remember DW making even ONE offensive move in the frontcourt. MU will struggle against every team that plays a 'roamer' in the lane, but the problem is that with Derrick in there, every team can do it.
It's pretty hard for anyone to be consistent when there is
NO ONE running the ship.
Quote from: ODMU238 on December 07, 2013, 03:33:32 PM
I've actually been ok with the starters in the first half. Where the "starters" have killed us is opening the second half. OSU, ASU, SDSU and Bucky all got ahead early in the 2nd and never looked back. Ox and somebody other than Juan or Jake should be out there after halftime.
Then again, why don't we let the "starters" play like they did in the last minute? Juan and Jamil both started shooting and they were going in. If we try to get something other than Jake (not his fault today, Gasser was all over him) going at the beginning from outside, we might be better off.
Actually ASU we made the second half run. It was the first half. But yeah the others were basically the starting the second half run.
Our Guard play really honked. Jake should ride the pines. He adds nothing. Give the minutes to JJJ and get Du. Wilson in there soon. The future is with him.
WE had two assists from our Guards today, and those were late in the second half. Also 1 for 6 shooting. Hoo Boy!
Quote from: Goose on December 07, 2013, 03:27:42 PM
Tower
Buzz has turned stupid, stubborn maybe.
Teal, right?
Quote from: forgetful on December 07, 2013, 03:34:55 PM
Do you understand the concept of a spot up shooter. They go to their spot and wait for others to create open opportunities for them.
Jake had a very very poor game today. But these thoughts that he should create for himself are a bit absurd, spot up shooters on other teams don't create for themselves. The offense is designed to create for them.
Spot up shooters on other teams rain though. Jake is about as inconsistent as it can get and CANT drive at all.
Cooney on cuse, Ford for OSU, Dawkins for Duke etc...
these guys are all consistent rainmakers and can drive if forced to
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 07, 2013, 03:39:23 PM
Spot up shooters on other teams rain though. Jake is about as inconsistent as it can get and CANT drive at all.
Cooney on cuse, Ford for OSU, Dawkins for Duke etc...
these guys are all consistent rainmakers and can drive if forced to
But they have point guards that will get them the ball when they break free. A good PG can anticipate where the shooter will be. Kinda hard to do when all you do is stand 25 feet from the hoop dribbling
Min FG 3pt FT OR DR REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
Jake Thomas, G 26 0-1 0-1 0-0 0 2 2 1 0 0 1 5 0
Derrick Wilson, G 39 1-5 0-0 1-1 0 3 3 1 0 0 2 3 3
That's 65 min of basketball, 1-6 FG, 0-1 3pt, 5 reb, 2 ast, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 3 TO, 8 PF, 3 pts
If the frontcourt was this unproductive, we would not get to 10 points.
It's not like this is the first game with this production. I just don't get it. No way the freshmen aren't an improvement.
Season is heading south in a hurry. Need to try something different.
Of course the freshmen are better option. Buzz is stubborn and we will see how it plays out. Regardless of who is playing we are not very good at this point.
On another note, Buzz looked sharp again today!!
Right Goose....Buzz is stubborn. Because the possibility that Buzz knows what he is doing cannot be the case.
I mean, it's not like you have been wrong about Buzz before right?
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=8386.0
Sultan
I have no problem with Buzz being stubborn. I have no problem with Buzz period. Have been wrong on Buzz plenty here and you will be hard pressed to find big supporter of him than me. I can live with wasted season if it happens. Buzz can suit you up and I am OK with it.
I like how the team plays hard, but if Thomas and Anderson continue to get starter minutes, we don't have a lot of upside. I'd like to see the kids play more and take their lumps now. It will pay off in the long run.
Quote from: jzpenguin on December 07, 2013, 05:03:42 PM
I like how the team plays hard, but if Thomas and Anderson continue to get starter minutes, we don't have a lot of upside. I'd like to see the kids play more and take their lumps now. It will pay off in the long run.
Juan Anderson was miles better than Burton tonight. Not even close. I can understand Jake Thomas, but Juan Anderson isn't playing poorly.
For sh*ts and giggles....Juan is just slightly behind what Trent was bringing last year.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=trent-lockett&i=1&p1=juan-anderson
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 05:05:55 PM
Juan Anderson was miles better than Burton tonight. Not even close. I can understand Jake Thomas, but Juan Anderson isn't playing poorly.
For sh*ts and giggles....Juan is just slightly behind what Trent was bringing last year.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=trent-lockett&i=1&p1=juan-anderson
+1
well stated, appears to be a wasted season unless something changes...
and no significant front court returning next year or incoming recruits, could be another wasted season..
Quote from: PE8983 on December 07, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
Min FG 3pt FT OR DR REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
Jake Thomas, G 26 0-1 0-1 0-0 0 2 2 1 0 0 1 5 0
Derrick Wilson, G 39 1-5 0-0 1-1 0 3 3 1 0 0 2 3 3
That's 65 min of basketball, 1-6 FG, 0-1 3pt, 5 reb, 2 ast, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 3 TO, 8 PF, 3 pts
If the frontcourt was this unproductive, we would not get to 10 points.
It's not like this is the first game with this production. I just don't get it. No way the freshmen aren't an improvement.
Season is heading south in a hurry. Need to try something different.
Buzz is playing who gives him the best chance to win. Could jjj and dawson put up better offense than the starters? Maybe. Could jjj and dawson play better defense? No. So is buzz going to trade an almost guaranteed defensive drop for a possible offensive boost? Clearly he's not willing to roll the dice and I can't say I blame him. Now, the freshmen could improve their defense in the coming weeks or months and then I'd be on your side. Right now, the current high mpg guys are giving mu a better chance to win. In February? It may be a different dynamic. Just hib a have to live with it for now.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 07, 2013, 05:27:47 PM
Buzz is playing who gives him the best chance to win. Could jjj and dawson put up better offense than the starters? Maybe. Could jjj and dawson play better defense? No. So is buzz going to trade an almost guaranteed defensive drop for a possible offensive boost? Clearly he's not willing to roll the dice and I can't say I blame him. Now, the freshmen could improve their defense in the coming weeks or months and then I'd be on your side. Right now, the current high mpg guys are giving mu a better chance to win. In February? It may be a different dynamic. Just hib a have to live with it for now.
Agreed. And JJJ's defense has already improved.
The best player on the team is starting. JWilson has to play with the passion, confidence and leadership that Dekker is showing. If that happens, so much other stuff will fall into place.
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2013, 05:31:27 PM
The best player on the team is starting. JWilson has to play with the passion, confidence and leadership that Dekker is showing. If that happens, so much other stuff will fall into place.
Except not without a PG who initiates offense.
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2013, 05:31:27 PM
The best player on the team is starting. JWilson has to play with the passion, confidence and leadership that Dekker is showing. If that happens, so much other stuff will fall into place.
Yeah, one's a 5th year senior, the other's a soph.
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2013, 03:25:15 PM
MU lost to a top 10 team on the road. Sucked. I want Jamil and Davante to play hard every possession. I want Todd to grow up. Checking.....nope, whining didn't change anything. Sweet 16, Sweet 16, Elite 8. Buzz didn't suddenly turn stupid. He has reasons for his starting line up.
I get what you are saying. I understand, I really really do. Buzz knows this team better than anyone. Buzz however, last I checked is not Jesus Christ. He makes mistakes like the rest of the earths population. This notion that you can not question anything he does and use that at the sole reason is getting old. What he is doing right now is simply not working against anything resembling a high major basketball program.
Ya can't play 2.5 on 5 offensively and beat good teams. Defenses are saggin' off both guards and cloggin' the paint.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 07, 2013, 06:15:16 PM
Ya can't play 2.5 on 5 offensively and beat good teams. Defenses are saggin' off both guards and cloggin' the paint.
blatantly false. Gasser was all over Jake today.
Quote from: CoachesCorner on December 07, 2013, 06:03:40 PM
I get what you are saying. I understand, I really really do. Buzz knows this team better than anyone. Buzz however, last I checked is not Jesus Christ. He makes mistakes like the rest of the earths population. This notion that you can not question anything he does and use that at the sole reason is getting old. What he is doing right now is simply not working against anything resembling a high major basketball program.
It seems to be the fan's right to question every move a coach makes that doesn't work out to a given fan's expectation. Buzz's track record means I am going to cut him some slack. Dawson was on the court for about 2 minutes today and looked scared. DuWilson isn't ready. So, changing PG's right now is just dumb. Todd was not available today. Taylor was not available today. JJJ was unproductive while he was out there. So Buzz stuck with the guy who knows where he supposed to be on Defense. Deonte was productive offensively. However, once you are down double digits against Wisconsin, having a defensive liability on the floor just so he can make free throws if fouled is not a good choice.
First off, I still believe in this team. Right now, the guys we were counting on to produce regularly are only producing erratically, and nobody wants to grab the bull by the horns and take over. I said before, I will say again. If Jamil played with the passion, energy, and leadership shown by Dekker today, MU's problems go away. He is the one guy on the team who has the ability to put the team on his back. But, as a 5th year senior, he still committing the same stupid fouls he committed as a sophomore. DG is playing like he has senioritis. If he had CO's motor, heart, and desire, he would be all-world. Not seeing it. Those two guys step up, and the rest of the pieces fall into place.
The other thing that occurs is that this is the first team Buzz has had without JUCO's or a first year transfer who was playing with something to prove. He seems lost without that junkyard dog.
I agree with you tower but....Jamil was huge today. Had one bad foul early, one understandable foul later in the first half, but played like a beast the rest of the game.
You cannot win high-level college hoops with a starting backcourt that produces 3 pts, 0 assists and 0 steals in 65 combined minutes. You can't.
To me, the most amazing thing about this game is that we actually had a chance down the stretch despite Derrick and Jake doing squat for 65 minutes.
I will admit that I don't know what the answer is. The gut says Buzz should play JJJ, Dawson, Burton, Duane when healthy -- anyone! -- because Derrick/Jake would combine for about 20 minutes on any good team in the country (as they did last season for a good Marquette team).
But Buzz, like any coach, wants to win. And, based on the hours and hours and hours he spends watching the kids in practice and on film, he obviously doesn't believe they are ready to help the team win. Throw in Mayo's situation, and the options aren't great.
We think we're going crazy, so just imagine how crazy Buzz is going. Pssst ... he actually wants to win more than we do!
I'd like to see:
Derrick (28) Dawson/Duane (12)
Mayo (30) JJJ (10)
Anderson (25) JJJ/Burton(15)
Jamil (30) Stevie(10)
Gardner (28) Otule(12)
If one of the guards / forwards is having a good game leave them in. But the way our current rotation sets up we seem to have an "explosive unit" off the bench and a "defensive unit" starting. We need to meld those units. Those saying that Burton and JJJ don't play defense well enough yet the best experience is game experience. You can only simulate so much in practice. Jake's 30 minutes going to someone like Mayo/JJJ will already make this team more explosive. Mayo, when his head is on right, is a ball hawk defender and one of the best ball deniers I've seen. Maybe what he needs to get his head on right is some serious play time.
I do think Buzz is guilty of having player crushes where he favors some over others because of practice work and not game production. He's always had weird-ass starting line-ups, though, and we just have to deal with it.
Quote from: jeffreyweee on December 07, 2013, 10:24:01 PM
I do think Buzz is guilty of having player crushes where he favors some over others because of practice work and not game production. He's always had weird-ass starting line-ups, though, and we just have to deal with it.
Well, one of his player crushes is Derrick. We all know that. Last season, Buzz said repeatedly Derrick "should" start over Junior. But did Derrick start? No. Did Derrick even play really meaningful minutes most big games? No. Why? Because Buzz wants to win and isn't going to play an inferior guy if he believes he has a better option.
Quote from: PE8983 on December 07, 2013, 04:32:33 PM
Min FG 3pt FT OR DR REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
Jake Thomas, G 26 0-1 0-1 0-0 0 2 2 1 0 0 1 5 0
Derrick Wilson, G 39 1-5 0-0 1-1 0 3 3 1 0 0 2 3 3
That's 65 min of basketball, 1-6 FG, 0-1 3pt, 5 reb, 2 ast, 0 steals, 0 blocks, 3 TO, 8 PF, 3 pts
It's not like this is the first game with this production. I just don't get it. No way the freshmen aren't an improvement.
Nothing more needs to be said. It is absolute horsesh$t. WTF is Dawson supposed to be able to show in 2 minutes of PT today? Koenig got a lot of run, and quite frankly was better than Derrick. We are 9 games in, lost all 4 against 3 decent teams and 1 very good team WI. It isn't freaking working. Derrick is so limited offensively it just kills the other players on the floor. And having Derrick, Jake, Juan and Chris playing together is just a formula for disaster - it's no wonder Jamil is having a hard time getting off. If you were an opposing coach squaring off against that starting lineup - who are you going to focus on shutting down??
I love Buzz as much as anyone, but I am absolutely baffled by his continued insistence to trot out this totally ineffective lineup, and dole out 39 minutes to Derrick Wilson...it's an absolute f'in joke.
Quote from: Ners on December 07, 2013, 11:10:15 PM
Nothing more needs to be said. It is absolute horsesh$t. WTF is Dawson supposed to be able to show in 2 minutes of PT today? Koenig got a lot of run, and quite frankly was better than Derrick. We are 9 games in, lost all 4 against 3 decent teams and 1 very good team WI. It isn't freaking working. Derrick is so limited offensively it just kills the other players on the floor. And having Derrick, Jake, Juan and Chris playing together is just a formula for disaster - it's no wonder Jamil is having a hard time getting off. If you were an opposing coach squaring off against that starting lineup - who are you going to focus on shutting down??
I love Buzz as much as anyone, but I am absolutely baffled by his continued insistence to trot out this totally ineffective lineup, and dole out 39 minutes to Derrick Wilson...it's an absolute f'in joke.
Simple...He's the best PG on the roster right now.
He thinks so much of Dawson, that even when he was in the game in the first half, Jamil ran the point. That should tell you something.
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2013, 07:05:16 PM
Buzz's track record means I am going to cut him some slack. Dawson was on the court for about 2 minutes today and looked scared.
.
Agree with bolded - but, I'll tell you what - Dawson only saw the ball maybe 2 times on offense in his 2 minutes, the man he defended did nothing. He's never looked scared for a moment. Derrick was on the court for 39 minutes today and looked scared - that's the truth...didn't DO JACK on the offensive end, and totally hinders the rest of the guys playing with him. Nice kid, but he's a back up PG at best at this level. Period.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 11:14:41 PM
Simple...He's the best PG on the roster right now.
He thinks so much of Dawson, that even when he was in the game in the first half, Jamil ran the point. That should tell you something.
Answer this question Sultan, seriously - How could Dawson be any worse than Derrick's stat line today, or for the season for that matter?? I mean throw the kid out there for 30 minutes and see WTF happens...it really can't get any worse. I just want the benchmark of Dawson getting 30 to see what would happen.
Buzz definitely can be stubborn, and there is nothing that makes him happier than proving people wrong - which is what would happen if Derrick actually stepped up and played at a modest level. I suspect Buzz's patience, loyalty and even stubbornness are eroding at this point.
Quote from: Ners on December 07, 2013, 11:16:17 PM
Agree with bolded - but, I'll tell you what - Dawson only saw the ball maybe 2 times on offense in his 2 minutes, the man he defended did nothing. He's never looked scared for a moment. Derrick was on the court for 39 minutes today and looked scared - that's the truth...didn't DO JACK on the offensive end, and totally hinders the rest of the guys playing with him. Nice kid, but he's a back up PG at best at this level. Period.
I can remember at least one 3pt play derrick had when he drove the lane. So your assessment isn't totally accurate.
Quote from: Ners on December 07, 2013, 11:20:35 PM
Answer this question Sultan, seriously - How could Dawson be any worse than Derrick's stat line today, or for the season for that matter??
You are email buds with Mr. Brent Williams...why don't you ask him? He's the only one that matters.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 07, 2013, 11:21:01 PM
I can remember at least one 3pt play derrick had when he drove the lane. So your assessment isn't totally accurate.
Well, if you want to split hairs that finely - I'd sure hope a point guard who gets 39 minutes of run could accomplish the above feat. Nonetheless, he was only able to convert at a 20% clip - missed his 4 other attempts trying to do the same thing.
Quote from: tower912 on December 07, 2013, 07:05:16 PM
The other thing that occurs is that this is the first team Buzz has had without JUCO's or a first year transfer who was playing with something to prove. He seems lost without that junkyard dog.
F'n Jameel.
Quote from: MU82 on December 07, 2013, 10:48:54 PM
Well, one of his player crushes is Derrick. We all know that. Last season, Buzz said repeatedly Derrick "should" start over Junior. But did Derrick start? No. Did Derrick even play really meaningful minutes most big games? No. Why? Because Buzz wants to win and isn't going to play an inferior guy if he believes he has a better option.
He has a huge crush on Junior too, irrelevant.
Quote from: jeffreyweee on December 08, 2013, 12:00:12 AM
He has a huge crush on Junior too, irrelevant.
Derrick is the only PG with significant experience.
It's just unfortunate that he lacks the offensive game, height, or plethora of minutes to really lead this team.
It's Jake Thomas, I'm more worried about right now. Can't make his own shot, doesn't have the Novak height to shoot over someone, and is a defensive liabilty. JJJ or Deonte is gonna take his minutes away while Jake is relegated to spot 3 pt duty.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on December 08, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
Derrick is the only PG with significant experience.
It's just unfortunate that he lacks the offensive game, height, or plethora of minutes to really lead this team.
It's Jake Thomas, I'm more worried about right now. Can't make his own shot, doesn't have the Novak height to shoot over someone, and is a defensive liabilty. JJJ or Deonte is gonna take his minutes away while Jake is relegated to spot 3 pt duty.
Jake will hit some 3's against IYew PeeYew and everything will be grand.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 07, 2013, 11:14:41 PM
Simple...He's the best PG on the roster right now.
He thinks so much of Dawson, that even when he was in the game in the first half, Jamil ran the point. That should tell you something.
+1
Whether people want to accept it or not, DeWil is the starting PG, will be the starting PG, and will continue to get 30+ in most games. Why? Because there's no one else who can do the job. Dawson isn't capable yet. Jamil is a decent fill-in but is better utilized at the swing 3/4. When Dawson plays against legit competition, he plays in a 2/3 spot. Why? He's not ready to be on the ball against top-level competition.
A lot of bashing the players who played the game today yet nothing said about Mayo? We needed his minutes and he got suspended. That hurt our chances as much as anything.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 08, 2013, 09:13:39 AM
A lot of bashing the players who played the game today yet nothing said about Mayo? We needed his minutes and he got suspended. That hurt our chances as much as anything.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40914.0
Oh it was discussed......
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 08, 2013, 07:01:49 AM
+1
Whether people want to accept it or not, DeWil is the starting PG, will be the starting PG, and will continue to get 30+ in most games. Why? Because there's no one else who can do the job. Dawson isn't capable yet. Jamil is a decent fill-in but is better utilized at the swing 3/4. When Dawson plays against legit competition, he plays in a 2/3 spot. Why? He's not ready to be on the ball against top-level competition.
This is all fine and well to speculate - but that's all it is - speculation. You don't know that Dawson couldn't handle playing the point against top level competition - because he hasn't been given the chance. When he has run the point in the games he's been able to play in, he hasn't looked shaky with the ball. Wisconsin doesn't even pressure full court - there is zero resistance to getting the ball into the frontcourt - they nor Ohio State are Louisville. I can promise, Dawson wouldn't do worse than Derrick Wilson has shown against Ohio State and Wisconsin - seriously - you simply cannot be more ineffective than Derrick was against both those teams - so let's just see if Dawson can give the team more. There's nothing to lose.
Quote from: Ners on December 08, 2013, 09:32:27 AM
This is all fine and well to speculate - but that's all it is - speculation. You don't know that Dawson couldn't handle playing the point against top level competition - because he hasn't been given the chance. When he has run the point in the games he's been able to play in, he hasn't looked shaky with the ball. Wisconsin doesn't even pressure full court - there is zero resistance to getting the ball into the frontcourt - they nor Ohio State are Louisville. I can promise, Dawson wouldn't do worse than Derrick Wilson has shown against Ohio State and Wisconsin - seriously - you simply cannot be more ineffective than Derrick was against both those teams - so let's just see if Dawson can give the team more. There's nothing to lose.
You don't know either.
But Buzz has a better idea than the rest of us.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 08, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
You don't know either.
But Buzz has a better idea than the rest of us.
Is it possible for me to agree with both brew/Sultan and with Ners on this point?
I do trust that Buzz, who sees these kids for countless hours each week in practice and on film, is far better qualified than any of us about who should play how many minutes.
But still ...
It does seem almost impossible to comprehend that Dawson could have been any less effective than Derrick was against Wisconsin. And that goes for JJJ losing minutes to Jake, too.
We need Duane to start at point. We need Mayo to start at the 2. We need Dawson to back up Duane. Dewilson should play a few minutes for spelling the above and for special defensive plays. Ja Wilson should be given the green light to shoot and make plays ala JFB along with Gardner. Burton should continue to spell Gardner.
This all rests on Duane Wilson getting on the court soon. We can turn this season around, but, our guards have to be changed. Enough said.
Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on December 08, 2013, 10:21:37 AM
We need Duane to start at point. We need Mayo to start at the 2. We need Dawson to back up Duane. Dewilson should play a few minutes for spelling the above and for special defensive plays. Ja Wilson should be given the green light to shoot and make plays ala JFB along with Gardner. Burton should continue to spell Gardner.
JFB as a senior shot once for every 3.3 minutes on the floor.
Jamil is shooting once for every 2.2 minutes on the floor.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 08, 2013, 09:41:16 AM
You don't know either.
But Buzz has a better idea than the rest of us.
I can't disagree with your point here. My frustration simply is why not give it a shot and run Dawson/JJ for 30 minutes and see what you get? Or if Buzz doesn't even want to roll the dice that long - just give them 13-15 minutes in the first half of a game and let's see what happens. Get a benchmark. That is all I want...if it's a disaster, you learn something, but if it clicks better - you've gained something. There is ZERO downside to giving it a shot...
Quote from: Ners on December 08, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
I can't disagree with your point here. My frustration simply is why not give it a shot and run Dawson/JJ for 30 minutes and see what you get? Or if Buzz doesn't even want to roll the dice that long - just give them 13-15 minutes in the first half of a game and let's see what happens. Get a benchmark. That is all I want...if it's a disaster, you learn something, but if it clicks better - you've gained something. There is ZERO downside to giving it a shot...
I expect over the next three of four games (IUPUI, Ball St., Samford) that we will see some other options.
Quote from: Ners on December 08, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
I can't disagree with your point here. My frustration simply is why not give it a shot and run Dawson/JJ for 30 minutes and see what you get? Or if Buzz doesn't even want to roll the dice that long - just give them 13-15 minutes in the first half of a game and let's see what happens. Get a benchmark. That is all I want...if it's a disaster, you learn something, but if it clicks better - you've gained something. There is ZERO downside to giving it a shot...
Well, here is what Buzz -- and most coaches -- would say.
If I reward the guy who isn't earning the playing time in practice, what kind of precedent would I be setting?
I'm not saying I totally disagree with you, Ners, I'm just trying to look at this from the coach's perspective.
There are countless examples, across all 4 major sports at all levels, of players being beat out in practice, but come game time, they step up. Recall when back up ____________ stepped up during the game when the starting _______________ went down with an injury? He played so well. So much so, in fact, that he took the job from the starter, despite being beaten out in practice.
Practice drills, weightlifting, scrimmages, etc., are all great, but THEY DO NOT, CANNOT, PERFECTLY SIMULATE THE ACTUAL GAME ENVIRONMENT. Not only is this true in sports, but more generally as well (e.g., psychological theories being tested in a lab/controlled setting that do not end up applying to real world situations).
I mean, unless it's clear that the kid (e.g., Dawson) cannot perform at a high-major level and we made a mistake bringing him here (and Buzz and co would know this), then give the kid a chance to prove himself, especially when we're being blown out at home and it's clear the game is over (tOSU).
Quote from: Ners on December 08, 2013, 11:57:01 AM
I can't disagree with your point here. My frustration simply is why not give it a shot and run Dawson/JJ for 30 minutes and see what you get? Or if Buzz doesn't even want to roll the dice that long - just give them 13-15 minutes in the first half of a game and let's see what happens. Get a benchmark. That is all I want...if it's a disaster, you learn something, but if it clicks better - you've gained something. There is ZERO downside to giving it a shot...
Zero downside? What if the team ends up in such a large hole that they can't come back? What if he would have played JJJ/Dawson for 15 minutes against WI to "see what happens" and we end up down 25 in the first half? Again, you're basically trading a possible offensive increase for an almost assuredly defensive decrease.
Quote from: MU82 on December 08, 2013, 12:04:06 PM
Well, here is what Buzz -- and most coaches -- would say.
If I reward the guy who isn't earning the playing time in practice, what kind of precedent would I be setting?
I'm not saying I totally disagree with you, Ners, I'm just trying to look at this from the coach's perspective.
Well practice evaluation is subjective to an extent - but we are getting concrete data/evidence as to the production of Derrick and Jake in game situations. Why not see if the freshman can step up and give you some juice. Some guys are better game day players than practice players too.
At this point I'd rather Buzz just run a line system, a la hockey - if he wants to keep his starting 5 together, keep them together - but then roll in the next line (maybe keep Jamil out there) but bring Dawson, Todd, JJJ and Devante - and then compare production of the two lines...
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2013, 12:09:06 PM
Zero downside? What if the team ends up in such a large hole that they can't come back? What if he would have played JJJ/Dawson for 15 minutes against WI to "see what happens" and we end up down 25 in the first half? Again, you're basically trading a possible offensive increase for an almost assuredly defensive decrease.
You mean like the deficits we consistently end up in with the current starting 5? Seriously - how can you be arguing the merits of Derrick and Jake?! Derrick and Jake aren't a disruptive defensive duo in any way shape, or form. Maybe solid positional defenders - nothing more. Get a benchmark with the freshman and see what happens. No, it cannot get any worse - but if it did - at least you know. Personally, I'm not sure even a 1 game benchmark is fair to assess, but I'd be slightly happier if we at least got a peak to see what would happen.
Don't think for a minute it isn't frustrating for Dawson, JJJ, Burton to be sitting behind this kind of "production." Do you want to run the risk of those guys getting a bad attitude, potentially consider transferring - when they are all more highly acclaimed recruits than Derrick (actually Dawson was a 3 star like Derrick) than Jake/Juan?
Quote from: Ners on December 08, 2013, 12:13:50 PM
Seriously - how can you be arguing the merits of Derrick and Jake?!
Don't think for a minute it isn't frustrating for Dawson, JJJ, Burton to be sitting behind this kind of "production." Do you want to run the risk of those guys getting a bad attitude, potentially consider transferring - when they are all more highly acclaimed recruits than Derrick (actually Dawson was a 3 star like Derrick) than Jake/Juan?
It's called risk management.
And, considering neither of us knows what goes on in practice, perhaps Jake and Derrick are much better than Dawson and JJJ in practice. So, to them, it may not be all that frustrating.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 08, 2013, 12:36:07 PM
It's called risk management.
And, considering neither of us knows what goes on in practice, perhaps Jake and Derrick are much better than Dawson and JJJ in practice. So, to them, it may not be all that frustrating.
I'd say it's been quite risky continuing to trot out Derrick and Jake for 30+ minutes per game. They've lead us to 4 defeats against the 4 decent teams we've played.
I don't think SDSU and ASU are much better teams than what the middle of the Big East will be - Butler, Creighton, Georgetown, maybe even Xavier. At this point, if nothing changes, I don't see MU finishing above 5th in the Big East which would be a huge disappointment.
FIRE BUZZ!!! He clearly has no idea what he is doing.
Does this sound stupid? It should. But if Buzz was truly playing the wrong players than he should be fired. So unless you truly think you are smarter than Buzz...