MUScoop

Seems many are saying Buzz was being a stubborn mule/overly loyal and others saying that it's early in the season, Buzz wants to see who is going to step up in big-time game situations.  It'd be nice to get a breakdown of the camps.

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You forgot "playing the best line up he thought we needed for a victory."

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:51:13 PM
You forgot "playing the best line up he thought we needed for a victory."

Duly noted.

Forgot - doing it so everyone says Buzz to Texas

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:51:13 PM
You forgot "playing the best line up he thought we needed for a victory."

Exactly right. What everyone seems to fail to realize is that had we played the freshman all game, it likely would've been a bigger blowout.

What is a BLOB?

Buzz said at the Fish Fry that there would be ugly early season losses due to many inexperienced players learning how to play. And that he teaches the team to be ready in Feb and March...

Not sure he can each DE Wilson to be a good PG though.  

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
Exactly right. What everyone seems to fail to realize is that had we played the freshman all game, it likely would've been a bigger blowout.

Hard to say, if they don't even get a shot.  Merely speculation.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:57:25 PM
What is a BLOB?

BLOB's Baseline Out of Bounds plays

SLOB's are sideline out of bounds plays

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 16, 2013, 03:00:14 PM
BLOB's Baseline Out of Bounds plays

Oh...I completely agree that they were terrible. 

Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 16, 2013, 02:58:15 PM
Buzz said at the Fish Fry that there would be ugly early season losses due to many inexperienced players learning how to play. And that he teaches the team to be ready in Feb and March...

Not sure he can each DE Wilson to be a good PG though.  

The game was a disappointment, no doubt. But in the first half when we looked solid, DeWil was driving and doing all the things people have been moaning about. I hope he doesn't have the Internet in his room, because even when he looks good he seems to be destined to be the whipping boy.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 02:57:02 PM
Exactly right. What everyone seems to fail to realize is that had we played the freshman all game, it likely would've been a bigger blowout.

Probably right but the team would be better in March for it. Wilson and Thomas have reached their ceiling and what you saw today is what you are going to get all year when they are on the floor together.

Lotta SLOBs at today's game, a'ina?

Quote from: MARQ_13 on November 16, 2013, 03:07:01 PM
Probably right but the team would be better in March for it. Wilson and Thomas have reached their ceiling and what you saw today is what you are going to get all year when they are on the floor together.

There is no way Thomas will continue to get the minutes he has seen early-on throughout the season.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on November 16, 2013, 03:07:01 PM
Probably right but the team would be better in March for it. Wilson and Thomas have reached their ceiling and what you saw today is what you are going to get all year when they are on the floor together.

So if Dawson and Johnson came in and got embarrassed, that would have been good for them? There's no merit to building confidence, it's always automatically better to throw an inexperienced kid into a situation where they are certain to fail? Maybe there's a method to Buzz's madness.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:21:11 PM
So if Dawson and Johnson came in and got embarrassed, that would have been good for them? There's no merit to building confidence, it's always automatically better to throw an inexperienced kid into a situation where they are certain to fail? Maybe there's a method to Buzz's madness.

Yea but it certainly doesnt help your confidence to sit on the bench all day either by two guys who cant make* (edited) a shot.

Quote from: esard2011 on November 16, 2013, 03:27:52 PM
Yea but it certainly doesnt help your confidence to sit on the bench all day either by two guys who cant miss a shot.

DeWil and Jake likely won't get down after a bad performance. They'd been around long enough to shrug off a bad day. This reminds me of Florida last year. Yes, it's raining, but that doesn't mean the sky is falling.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:29:58 PM
DeWil and Jake likely won't get down after a bad performance. They'd been around long enough to shrug off a bad day. This reminds me of Florida last year. Yes, it's raining, but that doesn't mean the sky is falling.

And I agree, Ohio st. is no slouch of a team but it was just a very disappointing performance.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:05:14 PM
The game was a disappointment, no doubt. But in the first half when we looked solid, DeWil was driving and doing all the things people have been moaning about. I hope he doesn't have the Internet in his room, because even when he looks good he seems to be destined to be the whipping boy.

We looked solid in the first half???

Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 16, 2013, 02:58:15 PM
Buzz said at the Fish Fry that there would be ugly early season losses due to many inexperienced players learning how to play. And that he teaches the team to be ready in Feb and March...

Not sure he can each DE Wilson to be a good PG though.  

Looking at the allocation of minutes today, I don't think we can blame this loss on inexperienced players learning how to play:

5th/6th year players: 73 minutes  (Thomas, J. Wilson, Otule)
Junior/Seniors: 103 minutes (Gardner, Anderson, Mayo, D Wilson)
Frosh/Soph: 24 minutes (Taylor, Burton)

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:21:11 PM
So if Dawson and Johnson came in and got embarrassed, that would have been good for them? There's no merit to building confidence, it's always automatically better to throw an inexperienced kid into a situation where they are certain to fail? Maybe there's a method to Buzz's madness.

Was more talking about Johnson. I think DWil should get 20-25 a game while Duane is out. I would have liked to see more Johnson though. I think Wilson would look better if the guard playing beside him had the ability to score. Jake can barely get open shots off due to his slow release.

Figured you would be back after MU looked bad.   I wonder if Buzz left the upperclassmen out there waiting for someone to lead.   Todd tried.   Of course, he missed, but at least he tried.  

Don't expect much of anything from Duane this year.  Dawson is the better option right now.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on November 16, 2013, 02:49:07 PM
Seems many are saying Buzz was being a stubborn mule/overly loyal and others saying that it's early in the season, Buzz wants to see who is going to step up in big-time game situations.  It'd be nice to get a breakdown of the camps.

Buzz was doing "None of the above". He was too busy admiring his rollover contract.

Oh,  cool thread.  A bunch of anonymous/know-it-all internet a**holes
on Twitter have chimed in with astute analysis.

GROUNDBREAKING.


http://www.youtube.com/v/B3zxDZDJGWY&source=uds


Edited:  The above clip also reflects my opinion of the poll.

I don't think Buzz did anything wrong in this game.  He was looking for his Veterans to demonstrate leadership and fortitude in a tough game.  Mayo tried to step up, but didn't do it within the offense.  Gardner did OK, but there needs to be a better strategy to get the defense to release the double teams.  (making shots would be one good strategy).  Nobody else stepped up. 

Everyone played good D, except during the stretch when OSU started running early in the 2nd half.

Actually, had MU shot 38% they would have won. 

So, what should buzz learn form this?
- The game is too fast for Derrick - every time he sped up even a little, he created a turnover
- Derrick cannot be the inbounder.  He's too small, and he thinks too slow.
- More/varied sets to get the ball inside to DG
- Jamil is not a leader.  Everyone would like it if he were.  Juan brings more energy.  Probably need to start Juan again.
- Keep Mayo coming off the bench to speed up the offense until he gets more disciplined
- Get Jake a couple screens
- Change the game by speeding up the game for 1-2 minute stretches of 'small ball" with Mayo, Jamil, Juan, Dawson, and Taylor or Burton.  Press during this period.
- Actually, with Derrick out, they could run a lot even with Otoule or Gardner in.
- Taylor is a rebounding stud. 
- The defense is good

Quote from: tommyc6 on November 16, 2013, 03:15:40 PM
There is no way Thomas will continue to get the minutes he has seen early-on throughout the season.

The question should be: Why has he been getting them?

Quote from: willie warrior on November 17, 2013, 07:00:24 AM
The question should be: Why has he been getting them?

My question as well.  I know there is a reason, but I 'm not smart enough to figure it out.  That performance was pure pain.

Buzz doesn't shoot the ball.  The team took a lot of good shots and they just didn't fall.  A couple of  shots go in, it opens up the middle for Devante.  A team shoots 19%, it is an anomaly.  Move on to the next game.

Quote from: Marqevans on November 17, 2013, 08:29:03 AM
Buzz doesn't shoot the ball.  The team took a lot of good shots and they just didn't fall.  A couple of  shots go in, it opens up the middle for Devante.  A team shoots 19%, it is an anomaly.  Move on to the next game.

I'd be with you on the anomaly diagnosis except for two things:

1. We shot 36% against mighty Southern. We are shooting 20% from 3-point range and 63% from the FT line this season. It's early, but these are signs that this is not a naturally gifted shooting team.

2. Aside from Jamil, we have nobody with any history of being a good perimeter shooter. And please don't say Mayo; look at the stats even from his "good" freshman year. Guys DO improve, as Vander certainly did with his midrange shooting, but none of us has any reason to expect that from the likes of Derrick and Jake. Mainly, we can only hope the freshmen will be fairly major contributors by the time the conference season gets in full swing.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:21:11 PM
So if Dawson and Johnson came in and got embarrassed, that would have been good for them? There's no merit to building confidence, it's always automatically better to throw an inexperienced kid into a situation where they are certain to fail? Maybe there's a method to Buzz's madness.

Brew, I get what you're saying here but ...

Do you really think it would have scarred the freshmen for life if Buzz threw them in for a couple of minutes here or there, even in garbage time late? If so, what does that say about the mental toughness of Buzz's heralded recruits?

This game just begged for a change-for-the-sake-of-change move or two. I'd love to hear Buzz candidly address his reasons for not doing that, but I'm guessing such candor isn't forthcoming. As honest as Buzz usually is, he doesn't tell us everything.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 03:47:38 PM
Don't expect much of anything from Duane this year.  Dawson is the better option right now.

Another mindless prediction concerning Duane.

I have very high expectations for Duane this year. We need him back and playing ASAP. He is our best PG by wide margin and freshman or not he needs to play big minutes ASAP. I do not buy into freshman do not play idea. Our freshmen guards are best option moving ahead and they need to play.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 17, 2013, 08:42:50 AM
Another mindless prediction concerning Duane.

It's not mindless.  I have my reasons.

One would think we would collectively learn from our annual hyping of freshmen than they oftentimes don't turn out like we expect them to...but I guess we don't.

Quote from: Goose on November 17, 2013, 08:48:03 AM
I have very high expectations for Duane this year. We need him back and playing ASAP. He is our best PG by wide margin and freshman or not he needs to play big minutes ASAP. I do not buy into freshman do not play idea. Our freshmen guards are best option moving ahead and they need to play.

Without a doubt 'cause the current group sucks ass.

Quote from: willie warrior on November 17, 2013, 07:00:24 AM
The question should be: Why has he been getting them?

I'd think the answer is pretty obvious. It's the same answer that it has been for numerous players over the past 6 seasons.

Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 08:40:49 AMDo you really think it would have scarred the freshmen for life if Buzz threw them in for a couple of minutes here or there, even in garbage time late? If so, what does that say about the mental toughness of Buzz's heralded recruits?

I honestly don't know, but I trust Buzz to know how to develop his talent. My guess is that Buzz still felt we had a chance if shots started dropping. The lead seemed to balloon from "we have a chance" to "that got out of hand" in a hurry.

Quote from: jtbh6b1 on November 17, 2013, 06:55:50 AM
I don't think Buzz did anything wrong in this game.  He was looking for his Veterans to demonstrate leadership and fortitude in a tough game.  Mayo tried to step up, but didn't do it within the offense.  Gardner did OK, but there needs to be a better strategy to get the defense to release the double teams.  (making shots would be one good strategy).  Nobody else stepped up. 

Everyone played good D, except during the stretch when OSU started running early in the 2nd half.

Actually, had MU shot 38% they would have won. 

So, what should buzz learn form this?
- The game is too fast for Derrick - every time he sped up even a little, he created a turnover
- Derrick cannot be the inbounder.  He's too small, and he thinks too slow.
- More/varied sets to get the ball inside to DG
- Jamil is not a leader.  Everyone would like it if he were.  Juan brings more energy.  Probably need to start Juan again.
- Keep Mayo coming off the bench to speed up the offense until he gets more disciplined
- Get Jake a couple screens
- Change the game by speeding up the game for 1-2 minute stretches of 'small ball" with Mayo, Jamil, Juan, Dawson, and Taylor or Burton.  Press during this period.
- Actually, with Derrick out, they could run a lot even with Otoule or Gardner in.
- Taylor is a rebounding stud. 
- The defense is good

Pretty complete list BUT forgot one....

Jake CANNOT shoot

Quote from: muwarrior97 on November 17, 2013, 10:02:16 AM
Pretty complete list BUT forgot one....

Jake CANNOT shoot

I'm going to wait a couple more games to pass judgement on Jake's shooting... and I hope Buzz does as well.  I currently think that Jake is playing good D and that he and Mayo make a nice combo at 2 guard.   After seeing JJJ's shot, I wouldn't trust that release to hold up under pressure, but I'd give him a few minutes mid first half to build confidence. 

I'm not going to wait any longer to pass judgement on Jake's shooting...it's godawful. In his MU career, he's a combined 12-45 from 3, for 26.7%. Some % for an alleged longrange 'sniper.' ::)

Quote from: Boone on November 18, 2013, 07:34:33 AM
I'm not going to wait any longer to pass judgement on Jake's shooting...it's godawful. In his MU career, he's a combined 12-45 for 26.7%. Some % for an alleged longrange 'sniper.' ::)

Buzz knows the numbers better than all of us combined.  Obviously Jake's shooting percentage is not why he is getting minutes.  (I STILL have no idea what the reason is, however).

We led 21-19, before the wheels came off. The wheels came off, when all of a sudden Ohio St. could drive to the basket and score. I am not sure what adjustment Coach Matta made, but he must of done something at halftime. Given that the starters could not stop Ohio St. I do not think going to JJJ and Dawson would of helped on defense. I think Buzz thought it was more important to get his starters to learn from their mistakes.

Quote from: Goose on November 17, 2013, 08:48:03 AM
I have very high expectations for Duane this year. We need him back and playing ASAP. He is our best PG by wide margin and freshman or not he needs to play big minutes ASAP. I do not buy into freshman do not play idea. Our freshmen guards are best option moving ahead and they need to play.

I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed.

Guys, we go through this EVERY YEAR. Until you actually see the frosh. play (and play well), don't assume that they can make the transition to D1 hoops.

Oh, also, Buzz didn't play his best line-up because he's trying to f*ck with Larry Williams.

Buzz never wanted to play such a tough game this early in the season, but Larry insisted, so Buzz made no effort to win the game. Made Larry look like a d*ck if you ask me. 

There's still a lot of friction there, guys. Don't be fooled.

Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 18, 2013, 09:12:02 AM
Oh, also, Buzz didn't play his best line-up because he's trying to f*ck with Larry Williams.

Buzz never wanted to play such a tough game this early in the season, but Larry insisted, so Buzz made no effort to win the game. Made Larry look like a d*ck if you ask me. 

There's still a lot of friction there, guys. Don't be fooled.

Thanks for this...made me LOL :)

Quote from: bilsu on November 18, 2013, 08:48:36 AM
We led 21-19, before the wheels came off. The wheels came off, when all of a sudden Ohio St. could drive to the basket and score. I am not sure what adjustment Coach Matta made, but he must of done something at halftime. Given that the starters could not stop Ohio St. I do not think going to JJJ and Dawson would of helped on defense. I think Buzz thought it was more important to get his starters to learn from their mistakes.

Suddenly, MU quit going inside and stopped rotating on defense.   5 minute lapse.   Game over.   I am willing to bet the team is very coachable this week. 

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 03:21:11 PM
So if Dawson and Johnson came in and got embarrassed, that would have been good for them? There's no merit to building confidence, it's always automatically better to throw an inexperienced kid into a situation where they are certain to fail? Maybe there's a method to Buzz's madness.

Yes it would have.  Just like it was good for Key, McIlvaine and Logterman to get their collective a$$ses handed to them by Duke in one of their first collegiate games.

Quote from: bilsu on November 18, 2013, 08:48:36 AM
We led 21-19, before the wheels came off. The wheels came off, when all of a sudden Ohio St. could drive to the basket and score. I am not sure what adjustment Coach Matta made, but he must of done something at halftime. Given that the starters could not stop Ohio St. I do not think going to JJJ and Dawson would of helped on defense. I think Buzz thought it was more important to get his starters to learn from their mistakes.

As much as I would have liked Buzz to throw Dawson and JJJ into the mix for at least 5 minutes of run to see what transpired - think Buzz looked at it like the game being a "pitchers duel/defensive slugfest" and wanted to ride what he feels is the best defensive lineup(s) for the game.

I don't think anybody here has any qualms with Derrick Wilson's defense - the question is, does that defensive ability offset the liabilities offensively?  Still think Dawson needs to get a lot more PT to develop and see what he can bring to the table.  He definitely has some ability...and I'd say significantly more ability than Derrick offensively.

Quote from: Ners on November 18, 2013, 10:02:21 AM
As much as I would have liked Buzz to throw Dawson and JJJ into the mix for at least 5 minutes of run to see what transpired

This. 
I don't think playing them for a few minutes would have changed the game.  I understand the arguments for keeping the freshmen on the bench.  This was an opportunity to get a look at them against strong competition with little downside.

If we bought this freshmen can't play argument, we never would have knocked off #2 UConn in our very 1st Big East conference game.  

Quote from: humanlung on November 18, 2013, 09:43:40 AM
Yes it would have.  Just like it was good for Key, McIlvaine and Logterman to get their collective a$$ses handed to them by Duke in one of their first collegiate games.

Call me crazy, but I have faith that Buzz knows their personalities and what is better for them as individual players and for the long-term good of the team than you do. Believe it or not, not everyone is alike. Maybe Buzz was using their bench time to send the message that if they want to play, they need to improve and earn it. Dawson has turned the ball over on nearly 40% of possessions while JJJ has been a sieve on defense.

I'd also argue that Buzz has a lot more experienced players he trusts to work with in his sixth year than Kevin O'Neill did in his second year with many Dukiet holdovers still on the roster.

I'm not going to throw Buzz under the bus for sticking with Derrick.  He has clear flaws - NOBODY is under the impression that he is in there to be a shooter - but he plays solid D, and actually tried to make things happen by taking it to the hole.  I could still see him emerging as a team leader...especially with Jamil so reluctant to assume the role.

But Buzz's continued playing of Jake mystifies me.  He is supposed to be a shooter...but he clearly can't hit shots consistently in big games.  Seems like a few minutes for JJJ and/or Dawson might have shaken things up.  Not saying they'd have won the game or changed the outcome, but I'd think a few minutes of game experience against a talented opponent would have taught them a lot.

Think about this -- if Vander hadn't gone into the draft, Jake wouldn't even be here.  So he goes from a guy who only got a schollie because Vander unexpectedly left, into a starter and designated shooter who stays in even when he isn't hitting shots?

I am fine with using Jake to set the tone on defense if he can continue to solidly play that role. However I think that guys like Todd, Juan, and maybe JJJ (if he can start playing defense) will get more and more of those minutes as the season goes on. But I agree that until he starts hitting shots, having him in there to jack up threes that are off the mark isn't going to lead to wins over top-50 competition, and there's plenty of that (ASU, UW, Anaheim, New Mexico) on the schedule between now and December 31.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 16, 2013, 02:58:41 PM
Hard to say, if they don't even get a shot.  Merely speculation.

Not only that.  But this team badly needs those freshmen to develop.  I remember back to the Key, Logterman, Mcklvein(sp) class.  Freshmen year O'neil put them out their to get their buts handed to them to show them what they need to do.  Break them down to build them up.  Show them what they are capeable of if they work their buts off.

Im not here to say Buzz doesnt know what he is doing.  But I can guarantee you he makes mistakes.  We are all human...  Questioning what he does from time to time is not without merit.

Quote from: CoachesCorner on November 18, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
Not only that.  But this team badly needs those freshmen to develop.  I remember back to the Key, Logterman, Mcklvein(sp) class.  Freshmen year O'neil put them out their to get their buts handed to them to show them what they need to do.  Break them down to build them up.  Show them what they are capeable of if they work their buts off.

Im not here to say Buzz doesnt know what he is doing.  But I can guarantee you he makes mistakes.  We are all human...  Questioning what he does from time to time is not without merit.

How dare you criticize Buzz. Beware you will face the wrath of the Sultan.

By the way, the freshman will not develop only playing against Grambling. They should play-especially in the backcourt.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 10:51:12 AM
I am fine with using Jake to set the tone on defense if he can continue to solidly play that role. However I think that guys like Todd, Juan, and maybe JJJ (if he can start playing defense) will get more and more of those minutes as the season goes on. But I agree that until he starts hitting shots, having him in there to jack up threes that are off the mark isn't going to lead to wins over top-50 competition, and there's plenty of that (ASU, UW, Anaheim, New Mexico) on the schedule between now and December 31.

In my mind he took one bad three in the game (the one that got blocked).  Two of his threes were in and out.  He needs to take threes when he is open, which is what he did.  Mayo was 1-for-6 from three while Jake was 0-for-6.  Thomas missed seven shots, Mayo missed nine.  I am not saying Thomas is better than Mayo but there were a lot of poor shooters out there on Saturday.

Quote from: CoachesCorner on November 18, 2013, 10:53:50 AM
Not only that.  But this team badly needs those freshmen to develop.  I remember back to the Key, Logterman, Mcklvein(sp) class.  Freshmen year O'neil put them out their to get their buts handed to them to show them what they need to do.  Break them down to build them up.  Show them what they are capeable of if they work their buts off.

Let's remember that freshmen lead team for O'Neill was 15-14 against a worse schedule than what we are going to play this year.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 10:28:31 AM
Call me crazy, but I have faith that Buzz knows their personalities and what is better for them as individual players and for the long-term good of the team than you do. Believe it or not, not everyone is alike. Maybe Buzz was using their bench time to send the message that if they want to play, they need to improve and earn it. Dawson has turned the ball over on nearly 40% of possessions while JJJ has been a sieve on defense.

I'd also argue that Buzz has a lot more experienced players he trusts to work with in his sixth year than Kevin O'Neill did in his second year with many Dukiet holdovers still on the roster.

Agreed.  Earn it in practice, that has been the way of Buzz and we should be used to it.  I want to see the freshman as well, but they have to earn it in practice and know what to do on defense.  This has always been the way of Buzz, and he will and has lost games to make a point or to keep consistent with his philosophy.  We lost at UW Green Bay and probably wouldn't have if Mayo had played, but Buzz said he wanted to talk to Mayo's mom before he played Mayo and stuck to it.  Winning one game doesn't change the way Buzz does his business.  I think he knows what he is doing for the long term.

Buzz knows more about what he has and needs to do then scoopers, that is the good news. Is Mayo better than Jake now?  I have never seen it in Mayo.  Is JJ better, I haven't seen it.  I think they have more potential, but they have to show it in practice and beat him out.   Buzz's teams usually see a jump in play during Christmas break, when he gets to have a lot of practice time. The bad news is that we have a tough schedule prior to that time.

I for one am not surprised by this loss or a bad loss.  I am hopeful that the message has been sent to the freshman, and they are ready to make the jump. Hopefully sooner than later.  But, after Christmas, I bet we have a better team with different starters.  Hopefully sooner, but I wouldn't bet on it, unless the freshman make a big practice jump.

It also wouldn't surprise me if we tried to slow it down after Christmas.  This team may be a Kevin O'Neil type of team.  Slow it down and pound it inside.
Buzz has completely adjusted during the season in the past, and he may do so again. If so, defense at the guard positions becomes an even bigger deal for who is going to play.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 18, 2013, 10:57:11 AM
In my mind he took one bad three in the game (the one that got blocked).  Two of his threes were in and out.  He needs to take threes when he is open, which is what he did.  Mayo was 1-for-6 from three while Jake was 0-for-6.  Thomas missed seven shots, Mayo missed nine.  I am not saying Thomas is better than Mayo but there were a lot of poor shooters out there on Saturday.

Yeah, there definitely were. On both sides of the court. But at least Mayo has hit threes in big situations before. Jake did that once against Syracuse. Since the start of Big East play last year, Jake is 1/15 from three against teams that aren't Grambling. If his in and out shots were dropping, I'd be a lot less critical, and we may have beat Ohio State. But they aren't, and until they do, the close miss is just as much of a miss as an airball.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 10:51:12 AM
I am fine with using Jake to set the tone on defense if he can continue to solidly play that role. However I think that guys like Todd, Juan, and maybe JJJ (if he can start playing defense) will get more and more of those minutes as the season goes on. But I agree that until he starts hitting shots, having him in there to jack up threes that are off the mark isn't going to lead to wins over top-50 competition, and there's plenty of that (ASU, UW, Anaheim, New Mexico) on the schedule between now and December 31.

I like the dream of Mayo.  He looks the part.  But what has he done better than Jake?  That is the issue.  If Jake plays good D, until Mayo plays as good and learns how to pass it and shoot it, there isn't really a big difference between them.  At least Jake passes it (even if they are not great feeds for open looks) instead of shooting it and missing a lot.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 10:43:48 AM
But Buzz's continued playing of Jake mystifies me.  He is supposed to be a shooter...but he clearly can't hit shots consistently in big games.  Seems like a few minutes for JJJ and/or Dawson might have shaken things up.  Not saying they'd have won the game or changed the outcome, but I'd think a few minutes of game experience against a talented opponent would have taught them a lot.

Think about this -- if Vander hadn't gone into the draft, Jake wouldn't even be here.  So he goes from a guy who only got a schollie because Vander unexpectedly left, into a starter and designated shooter who stays in even when he isn't hitting shots?

There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 18, 2013, 10:59:19 AM
Let's remember that freshmen lead team for O'Neill was 15-14 against a worse schedule than what we are going to play this year.

Exactly. KO had no choice but to play those freshmen big minutes. Buzz has the program at the point where 15-14 or even 19-12 seasons are considered unacceptable. So be careful what you wish for, Marquette

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 11:06:25 AM
There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

This is dead on.  I hope that someone else can step up and starting hitting the three to fill that role, JJJ hopefully.  

Quote from: GOO on November 18, 2013, 11:04:10 AM
I like the dream of Mayo.  He looks the part.  But what has he done better than Jake?  That is the issue.  If Jake plays good D, until Mayo plays as good and learns how to pass it and shoot it, there isn't really a big difference between them.  At least Jake passes it (even if they are not great feeds for open looks) instead of shooting it and missing a lot.

Mayo can create his own shot. We have seen the potential of Mayo being a scorer against legitimate competition numerous times in the past, against Wisconsin, Washington, Georgetown, and Louisville as a freshman, and against Pitt (twice) and Syracuse last year. He's had good offensive games on big stages. In addition, his defense is right about on par with Jake's.

Ohio State was the worst team offensive performance most of us have seen in our lifetimes. It's tough to take much away from it offensively because we were unilaterally bad. Other than that our offense was offensive. But that's the stingiest defense we are likely to see all year. Let's see how the team does at Arizona State and in Anaheim before we get too far down. Looking ahead, I think the ASU game is a toss-up, but I fully expect us to win the Anaheim Classic. The only team that scares me at all in the field is San Diego State, and they aren't much better at shooting the three than we are.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 11:06:25 AM
There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

I can accept #1, but all of the statistics seem to go against #2.  You might as well say I can hit a three pointer.  It is in the realm of possibility, despite the fact that I can point to no statistic justifying the point.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 11:18:02 AM
Mayo can create his own shot. We have seen the potential of Mayo being a scorer against legitimate competition numerous times in the past, against Wisconsin, Washington, Georgetown, and Louisville as a freshman, and against Pitt (twice) and Syracuse last year. He's had good offensive games on big stages. In addition, his defense is right about on par with Jake's.

Ohio State was the worst team offensive performance most of us have seen in our lifetimes. It's tough to take much away from it offensively because we were unilaterally bad. Other than that our offense was offensive. But that's the stingiest defense we are likely to see all year. Let's see how the team does at Arizona State and in Anaheim before we get too far down. Looking ahead, I think the ASU game is a toss-up, but I fully expect us to win the Anaheim Classic. The only team that scares me at all in the field is San Diego State, and they aren't much better at shooting the three than we are.

I hope your right and Mayo can fill the role.  To me, he looks the part, but shoots way to often without great results.  Again, he seems to have the potential.

Quote from: connie on November 18, 2013, 11:19:41 AM
I can accept #1, but all of the statistics seem to go against #2.  You might as well say I can hit a three pointer.  It is in the realm of possibility, despite the fact that I can point to no statistic justifying the point.

Thomas is shooting near 26% from long distance in his Marquette career. At this point, the only respect he's given near a basketball court is the bullcrap opposing coaches spew in media sessions. It's a knockdown case of perception clouding reality.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 11:06:25 AM
There are two primary reasons why Jake Thomas sees the minutes that he does.

1) He's not a defensive liability. That doesn't mean he's a great defender, or even an above average defender. It means that he knows where he's supposed to be within the defense. The same cannot be said about the freshmen at this point.

2) He's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but teams still have to respect him from the outside and stay relatively close to him because he CAN shoot well.

Totally disagree on the second point.  He shot very well as a freshman at USD (.441), then fairly well as a soph at USD (.347), then worse as a junior at MU (.278).  And while this season is young, his numbers have continued to go down (.231)...and his only made shots thus far this year were against the worst team in D-1 basketball.

If I was defending him now, I'd make him prove that he still has the confidence to make a shot.  tOSU pretty much did that on Saturday...and he showed that he doesn't.

On the flip side, JJJ - although a newcomer to the college game - comes with the reputation as a shooter.  If I was on defense, I'd be much more worried about him than a guy who has clearly lost his confidence, and shot .265 since coming to the high major level.

Quote from: GOO on November 18, 2013, 11:24:04 AM
I hope your right and Mayo can fill the role.  To me, he looks the part, but shoots way to often without great results.  Again, he seems to have the potential.

Todd will have a big year...he didn't shoot too often in the first 2 games, did he?  He is a shooting guard by position, however, and is expected to take a good number of shots.  He had his share rattle in and out on Saturday against Ohio State....he will realize his potential this year....so long as Buzz rides him for long stretches.  Last year was a complete throwaway year for Todd...his PT was limited, and choppy when he did get it..

Quote from: Ners on November 18, 2013, 11:38:29 AM
Todd will have a big year...he didn't shoot too often in the first 2 games, did he?  He is a shooting guard by position, however, and is expected to take a good number of shots.  He had his share rattle in and out on Saturday against Ohio State....he will realize his potential this year....so long as Buzz rides him for long stretches.  Last year was a complete throwaway year for Todd...his PT was limited, and choppy when he did get it..

Todd scored quite a bit in the last few minutes. Up unitl that time he was ineffective and problably playing worse than Thomas was. More than anything this team needs Jamil Wilson to step up.

Our only real offensive weapon is Gardner.  Teams will not even guard D. Wilson or Thomas unless they prove that they can be a scoring threat, which means they will be able to double Gardner every time he gets the ball.  We need to be able to somehow create scoring opportunities out of this.  I'd like to see more Juan, Burton and Taylor.  It's only one game, but this team has some serious weaknesses that were exploited.

Quote from: frozena pizza on November 18, 2013, 11:52:48 AM
Our only real offensive weapon is Gardner.  Teams will not even guard D. Wilson or Thomas unless they prove that they can be a scoring threat, which means they will be able to double Gardner every time he gets the ball.  We need to be able to somehow create scoring opportunities out of this.  I'd like to see more Juan, Burton and Taylor.  It's only one game, but this team has some serious weaknesses that were exploited.

I tend to think this team will still have a VERY good year...think Sweet 16 Elite 8 very likely.  There is a ton of talent on the roster, and Buzz will get it figured out - it might just take longer and a few more lumps along the way than anyone would like.  I look forward to these next few cupcake games to see what the freshman show...I really want to see more of Dawson running the team....think over time Jake's minutes will be limited a lot, with more going to Mayo and JJJ...so that doesn't concern me.

Quote from: connie on November 18, 2013, 11:19:41 AM
I can accept #1, but all of the statistics seem to go against #2.  You might as well say I can hit a three pointer.  It is in the realm of possibility, despite the fact that I can point to no statistic justifying the point.

How about this one? 37.7%. That's Jake's career 3-point shooting percentage.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:21:08 PM
How about this one? 37.7%. That's Jake's career 3-point shooting percentage.

Which shows just how irrelevant his frosh and soph stats were playing low D-1 ball at USD.  Use his stats playing at the high D-1 level, and the number dips to .265.

That tells me he can hit consistently against weaker, smaller, slower defenses...which is pretty much irrelevant when you're playing tOSU.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 11:33:29 AM
Totally disagree on the second point.  He shot very well as a freshman at USD (.441), then fairly well as a soph at USD (.347), then worse as a junior at MU (.278).  And while this season is young, his numbers have continued to go down (.231)...and his only made shots thus far this year were against the worst team in D-1 basketball.

If I was defending him now, I'd make him prove that he still has the confidence to make a shot.  tOSU pretty much did that on Saturday...and he showed that he doesn't.

On the flip side, JJJ - although a newcomer to the college game - comes with the reputation as a shooter.  If I was on defense, I'd be much more worried about him than a guy who has clearly lost his confidence, and shot .265 since coming to the high major level.

When Jake got consistent playing time as a fresh/soph, he took 450 3s he shot nearly 40%. In limited minutes at MU, he's taken 49 3s and made just 13 of them. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but during his D1 career, he has proven that he has the ability to shoot the ball at a very good clip from the outside.

As Saturday's game went on, OSU gave Thomas more space because 1) he wasn't hitting and 2) they had a sizable lead and adjusted to take away the post.

I can guarantee you that teams would be sagging off JJJ more than Jake Thomas at this point in their careers. Jake has proved that he can knock down outside shots. JJJ has not.

He is not quick enough to get his shot off against high D1 players. 

Maybe screens and pounding the ball down low (successfully) will get him free.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:31:13 PM
When Jake got consistent playing time as a fresh/soph, he took 450 3s he shot nearly 40%. In limited minutes at MU, he's taken 49 3s and made just 13 of them. Yes, he has shot the ball poorly but during his D1 career, he has proven that he has the ability to shoot the ball at a very good clip from the outside.

As Saturday's game went on, OSU gave Thomas more space because 1) he wasn't hitting and 2) they had a sizable lead and adjusted to take away the post.

I can guarantee you that teams would be sagging off JJJ more than Jake Thomas at this point in their careers. Jake has proved that he can knock down outside shots. JJJ has not.

You totally ignore the quality of the competition he saw at USD vs what he's seen at MU.  Lots of guys who play very well against Denver, SDSU, NDSU, etc would struggle mightily against tOSU.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 12:28:06 PM
Which shows just how irrelevant his frosh and soph stats were playing low D-1 ball at USD.  Use his stats playing at the high D-1 level, and the number dips to .265.

That tells me he can hit consistently against weaker, smaller, slower defenses...which is pretty much irrelevant when you're playing tOSU.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 12:35:30 PM
You totally ignore the quality of the competition he saw at USD vs what he's seen at MU.  Lots of guys who play very well against Denver, SDSU, NDSU, etc would struggle mightily against tOSU.

Do we need Coach Norman Dale to come out and measure the distance from the 3-point line to the basket? If you can shoot it, you can shoot it. Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school?

Do I think Jake is going to become a Novak-like sniper? No. Is it obvious that his shot is too slow? Yes. But opposing teams still respect his outside shooting because he has proven that he can shoot it.

We're not talking about "playing well," we're talking about having the ability to hit shots from the outside.

You mean like Dawson and JJJ playing well against Grambling might not translate to huge minutes against the Buckeyes?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:36:04 PM
Do we need Coach Norman Dale to come out and measure the distance from the 3-point line to the basket? If you can shoot it, you can shoot it.

So the speed, size, quality etc of the defense means nothing?  Really?

He can probably shoot lights-out in practice, in his driveway, and against slower, smaller teams.  But he has not shown the ability to consistently hit the 3 against high D-1 defenses.

Quote from: tower912 on November 18, 2013, 12:36:45 PM
You mean like Dawson and JJJ playing well against Grambling might not translate to huge minutes against the Buckeyes?

Correct.  I never said either deserved huge minutes.  Give each a run of 3-4 minutes to see if they can do something, and if not, sit 'em back down. 

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:36:04 PM
Do we need Coach Norman Dale to come out and measure the distance from the 3-point line to the basket? If you can shoot it, you can shoot it. Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school?

Do I think Jake is going to become a Novak-like sniper? No. Is it obvious that his shot is too slow? Yes. But opposing teams still respect his outside shooting because he has proven that he can shoot it.

We're not talking about "playing well," we're talking about having the ability to hit shots from the outside.

In terms of Jake's skill set, "playing well" DOES mean having the ability to hit shots from the outside.  He has shown he can consistently do that against lower D-1 competition, but not against better defenses. 

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on November 18, 2013, 11:24:58 AM
Thomas is shooting near 26% from long distance in his Marquette career. At this point, the only respect he's given near a basketball court is the bullcrap opposing coaches spew in media sessions. It's a knockdown case of perception clouding reality.

Matta opened the game with his best defender (Craft) on Thomas.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 12:38:44 PM
So the speed, size, quality etc of the defense means nothing?  Really?

He can probably shoot lights-out in practice, in his driveway, and against slower, smaller teams.  But he has not shown the ability to consistently hit the 3 against high D-1 defenses.

You avoided my question: Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school? After all, the defenders are slower, smaller and worse.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:59:10 PM
You avoided my question: Would Vander Blue have shot 40% from 3 had he gone to a low-D1 school? After all, the defenders are slower, smaller and worse.

No, but he likely would have shot a higher percentage than he did against MU's schedule.

The point is, we don't have to deal with hypotheticals when we're talking about Jake.  We have real evidence that he shoots the 3 much better against low D-1 opponents than he does against high majors. 

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 01:02:11 PM
No, but he likely would have shot a higher percentage than he did against MU's schedule.

The point is, we don't have to deal with hypotheticals when we're talking about Jake.  We have real evidence that he shoots the 3 much better against low D-1 opponents than he does against high majors. 

I'll go back to what I keep saying: If you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it. Even when he's not shooting it well, teams have to respect his ability and that opens the floor. Put a freshman in those minutes and the lane is going to become much more clogged.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:36:04 PM
But opposing teams still respect his outside shooting because he has proven that he can shoot it.

Has he though?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 01:05:21 PM
I'll go back to what I keep saying: If you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it. Even when he's not shooting it well, teams have to respect his ability and that opens the floor. Put a freshman in those minutes and the lane is going to become much more clogged.

But the simple truth is he's not shooting it. Having him out there for defense is fine, but putting a guy out there and asking him to jack up threes when he is 1/15 against non-Grambling opponents since the start of the year is either a guy that can't shoot or a guy that has such a massive case of the yips that he may as well not be able to shoot. Having Jake out there now as a three-point shooter is the basketball equivalent of putting Rick Ankiel on the mound. Maybe he had it, but at this point, he just doesn't.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 01:05:21 PM
I'll go back to what I keep saying: If you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it. Even when he's not shooting it well, teams have to respect his ability and that opens the floor. Put a freshman in those minutes and the lane is going to become much more clogged.

There is a major distinction between shooting said shots,  and MAKING said shots.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 01:10:25 PM
But the simple truth is he's not shooting it. Having him out there for defense is fine, but putting a guy out there and asking him to jack up threes when he is 1/15 against non-Grambling opponents since the start of the year is either a guy that can't shoot or a guy that has such a massive case of the yips that he may as well not be able to shoot. Having Jake out there now as a three-point shooter is the basketball equivalent of putting Rick Ankiel on the mound. Maybe he had it, but at this point, he just doesn't.

I don't think Buzz is putting Thomas out there and asking him to jack up 3s. He's putting him out there because, as I stated previously, he isn't a defensive liability and he's the closest thing MU has to a player who can spread the floor.

The fact of the matter is that Jake Thomas is the best outside shooting threat on the roster. His numbers don't necessarily dictate that at this point but it's true. MU is a team whose primarily offensive threats are a big man (DG) and a slasher (Mayo). With no outside shooting threats on the floor, it's very difficult to get the ball into the post and for a perimeter player to find lanes to drive because defenses clog the lane. On top of that, OSU de-emphasized crashing the boards offensively (6 o-reb and 0 second chance points on 30 misses from the floor) in order to limit MU's transition game (0 transition points). Looking back on it, it's a wonder MU even got to 35.

At the end of the day, if Thomas continues to shoot in the low 20s from 3 and/or someone else (Juan, JJJ, Dawson, etc) knocks down a few outside shots, Jake's minutes are going to decrease. If he can hit even 30% from deep and no one off the bench can prove himself as a threat, Jake is going to continue to get significant PT.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 02:01:37 PMThe fact of the matter is that Jake Thomas is the best outside shooting threat on the roster. His numbers don't necessarily dictate that at this point but it's true.

If you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in? I'm going with either Jamil or Mayo, and Jake might even be behind Juan and Jajuan simply because Juan has hit some threes and Jajuan might be young enough to not realize he shouldn't make that shot.

I suppose this is at best an agree-to-disagree statement, because I think the idea that Jake is the best outside shooting threat on the team when the only threes he's hit this calendar year are one against Syracuse and a handful against the worst team in the country is absolutely ludicrous.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 02:20:22 PM
If you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in? I'm going with either Jamil or Mayo, and Jake might even be behind Juan and Jajuan simply because Juan has hit some threes and Jajuan might be young enough to not realize he shouldn't make that shot.

I suppose this is at best an agree-to-disagree statement, because I think the idea that Jake is the best outside shooting threat on the team when the only threes he's hit this calendar year are one against Syracuse and a handful against the worst team in the country is absolutely ludicrous.

Thad Matta certainly respected Jake's shooting ability. I'll agree with him. You can have your own opinions.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 02:28:43 PM
Thad Matta certainly respected Jake's shooting ability. I'll agree with him. You can have your own opinions.

Thad definitely knows more than I do about the topic, but starting out with Craft on him seems pretty obvious when you consider who else was on the court (no one else small enough other than DeWil). And considering we were 1-18 from three, I'm not sure anyone was a three point threat on Saturday. The difference for me with Mayo (who didn't start on the court) and Wilson (who was always going to be guarded by a forward) is that they at least have a track record of successful distance shooting at a high major level.

As I asked before, if you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in?

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 18, 2013, 02:52:40 PM
Thad definitely knows more than I do about the topic, but starting out with Craft on him seems pretty obvious when you consider who else was on the court (no one else small enough other than DeWil). And considering we were 1-18 from three, I'm not sure anyone was a three point threat on Saturday. The difference for me with Mayo (who didn't start on the court) and Wilson (who was always going to be guarded by a forward) is that they at least have a track record of successful distance shooting at a high major level.

As I asked before, if you have one shot to tie the game, whose hands do you want it in?

Your question isn't really relevant to which player is the best outside shooter but I'll humor you...

If MU is down by 3, Buzz is going to draw up a play for Jamil Wilson because of his size and shooting ability. If MU needs 2 points, he's going to give it to Mayo and clear out (much like with Butler and Blue in the past). If MU somehow were to be allowed to take an uncontested 3, he's going to go with Jake  ;)

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2013, 12:49:37 PM
Matta opened the game with his best defender (Craft) on Thomas.

So that means Thomas is more of a threat than Wilson.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 12:38:44 PM
So the speed, size, quality etc of the defense means nothing?  Really?

He can probably shoot lights-out in practice, in his driveway, and against slower, smaller teams.  But he has not shown the ability to consistently hit the 3 against high D-1 defenses.

Bingo - To argue otherwise is foolish....as we saw on Jake's shot that got blocked - his release is slow...which can work at a lower level...at this level with the players much more athletic and long..much harder to get shots off. If a "shooter" feels really rushed..he doesn't shoot it well.

People complained all last year about being sick of seeing Jake shot fake/pump fake, maybe dribble 1 bounce and pass.  I'd argue that many of those shot "fakes" were going to be real shots, but he realized he couldn't get it off, so pulled it down.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 03:01:35 PM
If MU is down by 3, Buzz is going to draw up a play for Jamil Wilson because of his size and shooting ability. If MU needs 2 points, he's going to give it to Mayo and clear out (much like with Butler and Blue in the past). If MU somehow were to be allowed to take an uncontested 3, he's going to go with Jake  ;)

Jake can make open threes.  He does it all of the time.  He has done it before.  I agree with Merritt.  The guy came off the bench last year at 8 minutes a game because there were better all-around players than him... so one can discount last year's percentage.  And we are only 3 games into this year.  Let's give the guy a chance.

If by conference season the man is shooting 20% from three then I will agree that he probably isn't going to improve too much.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 02:28:43 PM
Thad Matta certainly respected Jake's shooting ability.

Where do you get that from?

Craft is a 6'2" guard...and he had to guard someone when they played man defense.  Given our starting lineup, the only realistic options were Derrick or Jake, since he clearly wasn't going to guard Jamil (6'7"), Steve (6'7") or Chris (6'11").  Putting Craft on Jake simply means he thinks Jake is more of a scoring threat than Derrick.  Hardly a rousing endorsement of Jake's shooting ability....

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
Where do you get that from?

Craft is a 6'2" guard...and he had to guard someone when they played man defense.  Given our starting lineup, the only realistic options were Derrick or Jake, since he clearly wasn't going to guard Jamil (6'7"), Steve (6'7") or Chris (6'11").  Putting Craft on Jake simply means he thinks Jake is more of a scoring threat than Derrick.  Hardly a rousing endorsement of Jake's shooting ability....

Matta said it in the postgame

Probably would have been better having him double up on some one...

Point is - he had to guard someone, choosing to guard Wilson or Thomas is like having an NFL team choose which Packer backup QB they prefer to defend against - does it matter?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 18, 2013, 12:49:37 PM
Matta opened the game with his best defender (Craft) on Thomas.

Quote from: jesmu84 on November 18, 2013, 04:15:37 PM
Matta said it in the postgame

Coachspeak.

The bottom line is that we have to score.  We have to be able to make baskets.  If JJJ is a shooter he should play.  Burton should play.  Buzz has to play the guys that can score.  This game was ridiculous and a total embarrassment.  We can play much better.  If Thomas can't score, he shouldn't play period.  Dawson should play.  We have to play the best team no matter if they are seniors or freshmen.  Rotate the players until we have five that can win.

Craft could have stepped off the floor for a smoke break while OSU was on defense and Jake still wouldn't have scored.

Quote from: GooooMarquette on November 18, 2013, 03:58:20 PM
Where do you get that from?

Craft is a 6'2" guard...and he had to guard someone when they played man defense.  Given our starting lineup, the only realistic options were Derrick or Jake, since he clearly wasn't going to guard Jamil (6'7"), Steve (6'7") or Chris (6'11").  Putting Craft on Jake simply means he thinks Jake is more of a scoring threat than Derrick.  Hardly a rousing endorsement of Jake's shooting ability....

From watching the game and understanding basketball.

If you re-watch the game and look at the floor spacing when Jake is in vs. when he's not... it's much better when he's in.  There are two reasons for this. 
1.  The freshman don't know how to space the floor yet and none of them command enough respect from the D
2.  Mayo is a slasher first so the defender will give him a little more space while they get up on Jake
Jake on the floor = points for DG and points for DG = and MU win.

Quote from: jtbh6b1 on November 18, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
If you re-watch the game and look at the floor spacing when Jake is in vs. when he's not... it's much better when he's in.  There are two reasons for this. 
1.  The freshman don't know how to space the floor yet and none of them command enough respect from the D
2.  Mayo is a slasher first so the defender will give him a little more space while they get up on Jake
Jake on the floor = points for DG and points for DG = and MU win.

Absolutely. I couldn't help but notice DG's 10 whole points and that fantastic MU win Saturday.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 08:28:31 PM
From watching the game and understanding basketball.

Classic non-responsive response...but thanks for the laugh!

Quote from: jtbh6b1 on November 18, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
If you re-watch the game and look at the floor spacing when Jake is in vs. when he's not... it's much better when he's in.  There are two reasons for this. 
1.  The freshman don't know how to space the floor yet and none of them command enough respect from the D
2.  Mayo is a slasher first so the defender will give him a little more space while they get up on Jake
Jake on the floor = points for DG and points for DG = and MU win.

So, Jake is commanding respect from the D?

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 18, 2013, 04:53:44 PM
The bottom line is that we have to score.  We have to be able to make baskets.  If JJJ is a shooter he should play.  Burton should play.  Buzz has to play the guys that can score.  This game was ridiculous and a total embarrassment.  We can play much better.  If Thomas can't score, he shouldn't play period.  Dawson should play.  We have to play the best team no matter if they are seniors or freshmen.  Rotate the players until we have five that can win.

Calm down...you don't play freshmen in a game like this, this early if they are not ready and you don't have to.

But I say this without having watched the game at all...

Quote from: jtbh6b1 on November 18, 2013, 08:38:36 PM
If you re-watch the game and look at the floor spacing when Jake is in vs. when he's not... it's much better when he's in.  There are two reasons for this. 
1.  The freshman don't know how to space the floor yet and none of them command enough respect from the D
2.  Mayo is a slasher first so the defender will give him a little more space while they get up on Jake
Jake on the floor = points for DG and points for DG = and MU win.

But, but, but that can't be! Jake Thomas hasn't made a 3 against non-Grambling opponents, plus he shot 28% last season in limited action! There's no way another team would pay attention to him!

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2013, 07:32:40 AM
But, but, but that can't be! Jake Thomas hasn't made a 3 against non-Grambling opponents, plus he shot 28% last season in limited action! There's no way another team would pay attention to him!

Improved floor spacing does not make Jake an effective three-point shooter against high-major opponents. The two things are mutually exclusive. Yes, Matta acknowledged guarding Jake and had Craft on him most of the day. This is largely because when Jake is in and Todd isn't, Jake is the only potential perimeter threat. Derrick is not a threat from out there, we know that, so the excellent 6'2" defender will take Jake. What's the alternative, putting Craft on Jamil when he gives up 5-6 inches? Matta's not an idiot and he's not desperate. And if Craft stays close to Jake (which history has shown will nullify his ability to shoot) it will open up the passing lanes, though even then MU had little luck getting the ball inside. I don't have the game recorded, but when Jake and Todd were out there together, I'd be curious to know how much time Craft spent on each of them.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 07:38:00 AM
Improved floor spacing does not make Jake an effective three-point shooter against high-major opponents. The two things are mutually exclusive. Yes, Matta acknowledged guarding Jake and had Craft on him most of the day. This is largely because when Jake is in and Todd isn't, Jake is the only potential perimeter threat. Derrick is not a threat from out there, we know that, so the excellent 6'2" defender will take Jake. What's the alternative, putting Craft on Jamil when he gives up 5-6 inches? Matta's not an idiot and he's not desperate. And if Craft stays close to Jake (which history has shown will nullify his ability to shoot) it will open up the passing lanes, though even then MU had little luck getting the ball inside. I don't have the game recorded, but when Jake and Todd were out there together, I'd be curious to know how much time Craft spent on each of them.

This is EXACTLY the point I've been making over and over and over.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2013, 07:54:20 AM
This is EXACTLY the point I've been making over and over and over.

Not exactly the point you've been making, because you've been saying a lot more than that:

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:21:08 PM37.7%. That's Jake's career 3-point shooting percentage.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 12:31:13 PMJake has proved that he can knock down outside shots.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 01:05:21 PMIf you can shoot it, you can shoot it and that is why Thomas plays. He can shoot it.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 18, 2013, 02:01:37 PMThe fact of the matter is that Jake Thomas is the best outside shooting threat on the roster.

Does Jake space the floor? Yes. But his 37.7% career shooting percentage hasn't meant a thing against high-major opponents. He hasn't proven he can knock down outside shots at this level. And maybe he can shoot it, but I think most people's definition of a guy who can "shoot it" would be a guy who can also "make it", which would pretty definitively indicate he is not the best outside shooting threat on the roster.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 08:08:46 AM
Not exactly the point you've been making, because you've been saying a lot more than that:

Does Jake space the floor? Yes. But his 37.7% career shooting percentage hasn't meant a thing against high-major opponents. He hasn't proven he can knock down outside shots at this level. And maybe he can shoot it, but I think most people's definition of a guy who can "shoot it" would be a guy who can also "make it", which would pretty definitively indicate he is not the best outside shooting threat on the roster.

"Sniper Jake" is a joke.

He made 3 last season against Mississippi State and 4 against UMBC, whoever that is. He made 4 this season against Grambling. That is 11 of the 17 three-points he has hit in his illustrious 1-plus season at Marquette.

Aside from the 4-point play against Syracuse -- perhaps a tad lucky, but I still gotta give him credit -- when has he hit a trey in any situation that mattered?

If his mere presence on the court is for spacing, then fine, let him play a few minutes to space the court until somebody who actually can hit 3-pointers starts to earn minutes.

But our best 3-point shooter? Hell, I'm not sure he's better than Davante.

Quote from: brewcity77 on November 19, 2013, 08:08:46 AM
Not exactly the point you've been making, because you've been saying a lot more than that:

Does Jake space the floor? Yes. But his 37.7% career shooting percentage hasn't meant a thing against high-major opponents. He hasn't proven he can knock down outside shots at this level. And maybe he can shoot it, but I think most people's definition of a guy who can "shoot it" would be a guy who can also "make it", which would pretty definitively indicate he is not the best outside shooting threat on the roster.

True. I did say more than that...as part of providing evidence as to why Jake spaces the floor. Quite simply: he's the closest thing MU has to an outside shooting threat and, unlike a lot of posters on here, opposing teams understand that, which is why they need to account for him and which is why he's seeing the minutes that he's seeing (along with his respectable job on the defensive end).

Look, no one is saying that Jake is the second-coming of Steve Novak or that he's going to shoot MU to the Final Four. This whole debate began with posters wondering why Jake is seeing so many minutes and I answered the question.

Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2013, 08:19:09 AM
"Sniper Jake" is a joke.

He made 3 last season against Mississippi State and 4 against UMBC, whoever that is. He made 4 this season against Grambling. That is 11 of the 17 three-points he has hit in his illustrious 1-plus season at Marquette.

Aside from the 4-point play against Syracuse -- perhaps a tad lucky, but I still gotta give him credit -- when has he hit a trey in any situation that mattered?

If his mere presence on the court is for spacing, then fine, let him play a few minutes to space the court until somebody who actually can hit 3-pointers starts to earn minutes.

But our best 3-point shooter? Hell, I'm not sure he's better than Davante.

Not only is Jake not the best 3-point shooter on what would appear to be the worst 3-point shooting team in the last decade, I'm not sure he would crack the top three, excluding Davante due to limited attempts.

Among returning players that attempted at least as many 3PFGs as Jake last season (36), he checks in fourth behind Jamil (.360), Juan (.286), and Todd (.279).

Obviously this does not account for Duane and JJJ, both of whom are expected to contribute from the perimeter.

Fortunately for Jake, it appears as though Buzz will allow him ample opportunity to right the ship.

Maybe Dylan Flood could jack up a few. What the hell, hey?

Jake, Derrick, and Jamil are all starters that should be at the end of the bench. None of them have come remotely close to playing to expectation. When we and Buzz start to admit it, we can start the change. In Buzz we trust my butt! This team will be much better when the right players are finally put on the floor.

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on November 19, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
Jake, Derrick, and Jamil are all starters that should be at the end of the bench. None of them have come remotely close to playing to expectation. When we and Buzz start to admit it, we can start the change. In Buzz we trust my butt! This team will be much better when the right players are finally put on the floor.

And who are "the right players" exactly? And what makes them so right?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on November 19, 2013, 09:32:27 AM
And who are "the right players" exactly? And what makes them so right?

I admit, I don't know who the right players are. But I can safely say, those three are the wrong players to lean our hopes on. Too much talent still sitting on the bench. Let's stop saying they're not proven. Put them in some games (with an "s") and lets find out what we have.

Quote from: kilbournave on November 19, 2013, 08:36:20 AM
Not only is Jake not the best 3-point shooter on what would appear to be the worst 3-point shooting team in the last decade, I'm not sure he would crack the top three, excluding Davante due to limited attempts.

Among returning players that attempted at least as many 3PFGs as Jake last season (36), he checks in fourth behind Jamil (.360), Juan (.286), and Todd (.279).

Obviously this does not account for Duane and JJJ, both of whom are expected to contribute from the perimeter.

Fortunately for Jake, it appears as though Buzz will allow him ample opportunity to right the ship.

The thing about Jake is that if you leave him alone he will make 3s.  I agree that for the most part if you keep a man on him he will not, and that he is not particularly hard to guard.  But that still means that you have to keep a man on him which should help free up others and with proper spacing give other guys some room to move and score.  I think that is a big part of the point Merritt is trying to make.  How helpful that is when 1 or 2 other MU guys on the floor are not scoring threats is debatable.

We can go with:

- a proven (through 3 games and last year) backcourt who may be the worst back court in college basketball but may get slightly better

- an unproven backcourt who has talent (on paper) who may not be ready to play


Buzz is in a tough spot right now - I would test the unproven players as much as possible as you pretty much know the ceiling on Derrick and Jake which is not high D1 ball...

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on November 19, 2013, 09:59:44 AM
I admit, I don't know who the right players are. But I can safely say, those three are the wrong players to lean our hopes on. Too much talent still sitting on the bench. Let's stop saying they're not proven. Put them in some games (with an "s") and lets find out what we have.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 19, 2013, 10:12:59 AM
We can go with:

- a proven (through 3 games and last year) backcourt who may be the worst back court in college basketball but may get slightly better

- an unproven backcourt who has talent (on paper) who may not be ready to play

Buzz is in a tough spot right now - I would test the unproven players as much as possible as you pretty much know the ceiling on Derrick and Jake which is not high D1 ball...

Or the third alternative:  A mixture of a proven but limited PG (Derrick), combined with an unproven player (JJJ) who has talent (on paper) but who may not be ready to play.  And when they need a break, sub in an unproven PG (Dawson) who has talent (on paper) but who may not be ready to play, combined with a proven but limited shooter (Jake).

Neither Derrick nor Jake should be thrown under the bus in favor of the freshmen.  But they're not good enough to play 25+ minutes (Jake) or 35+ minutes (Derrick) against top competition.  And if the freshmen really fail, we can always go back to the proven but limited duo of Derrick and Jake.

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on November 19, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
Jake, Derrick, and Jamil are all starters that should be at the end of the bench. None of them have come remotely close to playing to expectation. When we and Buzz start to admit it, we can start the change. In Buzz we trust my butt! This team will be much better when the right players are finally put on the floor.

Jake probably should be close to the end of the bench, and would be on a team with a good backcourt, but you are wrong about the other two.

Jamil has a lot of talent. We all know that, and he showed it most of the second half of last season. He is, however, a role player and not a star. His best role is the one he had last season: 25 minutes or so per game, maybe 30+ if he is having one of his on-fire games, primarily to provide scoring. Sadly, others are more "energy players" and better defenders and better rebounders and better leaders.

Derrick, as he has shown in the past, is a nice backup who should get 10-15 minutes per game. He is a superior defender who also seems to have some leadership skills, and he usually won't hurt the team with his decisions.

Unfortunately, Buzz does not feel he has ready alternatives so that Jamil and Derrick can play their proper roles. Hopefully, as the season develops, that will change.

Hyperbole -- "bench all of da bums!" -- helps nothing.

Quote from: MU82 on November 19, 2013, 10:31:38 AM

Jake probably should be close to the end of the bench, and would be on a team with a good backcourt, but you are wrong about the other two.

Hyperbole -- "bench all of da bums!" -- helps nothing.

+1

Surprised Buzz has not been able to "coach" Jamil up.  Jamil has so much talent but doesn't dominate.  You would expect that Buzz would be more effective getting the best out of Jamil.  But, nada.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on November 19, 2013, 01:42:55 PM
Surprised Buzz has not been able to "coach" Jamil up.  Jamil has so much talent but doesn't dominate.  You would expect that Buzz would be more effective getting the best out of Jamil.  But, nada.

I do not think there is anything Buzz can do about Jamil. Even not starting him last year did not light a fire under him.

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on November 19, 2013, 09:25:32 AM
Jake, Derrick, and Jamil are all starters that should be at the end of the bench. None of them have come remotely close to playing to expectation. When we and Buzz start to admit it, we can start the change. In Buzz we trust my butt! This team will be much better when the right players are finally put on the floor.

It really does not matter whether they are playing close to your expectations. What matters (and I am assuming this) they are outplaying the other options in practice.

Perhaps Jamil simply isn't as talented as people think he is.  He's tall, long and can jump, but he isn't terribly quick.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 19, 2013, 02:06:39 PM
Perhaps Jamil simply isn't as talented as people think he is.  He's tall, long and can jump, but he isn't terribly quick.

My thoughts too, plus he is a liability once he tries to dribble he travels most of the time and refs are starting to notice. Tends to start his move by moving pivot foot.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 19, 2013, 02:06:39 PM
Perhaps Jamil simply isn't as talented as people think he is.  He's tall, long and can jump, but he isn't terribly quick.

+1

I said this on a different thread, but I think it's time we accept the fact that Jamil is what he is. He's a very good role player who will put up 10 and 5 a night. While he looks the part of the next Hayward/Butler/Crowder, he's more like the next Olouma Nnamaka.

Without Jamil last year we don't get past Davidson. He has talent. The entire team had an off-day all at the same time against tOSU.  Next game!

Quote from: Daniel on November 19, 2013, 03:35:44 PM
Without Jamil last year we don't get past Davidson. He has talent. The entire team had an off-day all at the same time against tOSU.  Next game!

Of course he has talent.  People just want to make him something he's not.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 19, 2013, 02:06:39 PM
Perhaps Jamil simply isn't as talented as people think he is.  He's tall, long and can jump, but he isn't terribly quick.

+1 - We agree on something!   ;D

Quote from: newsdrms on November 19, 2013, 02:27:30 PM
My thoughts too, plus he is a liability once he tries to dribble he travels most of the time and refs are starting to notice. Tends to start his move by moving pivot foot.

+ 1000 - Agree...Jamil just doesn't have an explosive first step....part of that is simply that he's 6'8", but he plays very up and down/erect - not great body lean or ability to get low...

Quote from: madtownwarrior on November 19, 2013, 10:12:59 AM

Buzz is in a tough spot right now - I would test the unproven players as much as possible as you pretty much know the ceiling on Derrick and Jake which is not high D1 ball...

Agree - Out of loyalty and politically to an extent - Buzz owes the "vets" a fair shake at proving they deserve the majorit/max minutes at the 1 and 2.  I suspect we'll see Derrick and Jake get lots of PT again against Wisconsin and Arizona State.  If they continue to struggle - Buzz then can say:  Derrick, Jake - Wanted to give you a good and fair shake to earn max minutes, but it just isn't working out.  I need to see what the young guys - Dawson and JJJ can do.

Every coach faces that dilemma - as you don't want to lose the vets and affect their attitude negatively.  If Jake and Derrick continue to struggle - they can't really fault or argue with Buzz going away from them.  Steve Fischer dealt with that with the Fab 5 - and basically didn't start Ray King so as to not lose the entire team..would have been a mutiny of sorts of from Day 1 of the season the Fab 5 all started.

I would to have seen where Ferguson would fit in the lineup.

Quote from: Sunbelt15 on November 19, 2013, 06:38:25 PM
I would to have seen where Ferguson would fit in the lineup.

Right next to JJJ and Dawson.

Quote from: Daniel on November 19, 2013, 03:35:44 PM
Without Jamil last year we don't get past Davidson. He has talent. The entire team had an off-day all at the same time against tOSU.  Next game!

It seems to me that Jamil only cares about playing in March.