Did we expect to go undefeated this year?
It's about how we finish.
I will start to panic in March.
Go Warriors!!!
No need to panic when you play pathetic. That is how we roll.
Don't want to see another once of these to end the year like we have seen before. Now is not as bad despite the national TV.
Glad Satch did not wait another day to decide, though.
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on November 16, 2013, 02:15:15 PM
Now is not as bad despite the national TV.
Oh, crap, that was our Fox showcase. I think an old friend will be re-surfacing to post an "embarrassment on national television" thread soon.
Play bad, lose big. This year's Florida game, like I thought it might be. I will worry about it if MU has a game like this in February.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 02:20:05 PM
Play bad, lose big. This year's Florida game, like I thought it might be. I will worry about it if MU has a game like this in February.
Yep. I wasn't surprised at the outcome. I was surprised by the pathetic offensive showing. This team will get better. It has every year.
Definitely not the end of the world, but if they don't get the point guard situation figured out it is going to be a long season. One thing we learned today Derrick Wilson is not the answer.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
Yep. I wasn't surprised at the outcome. I was surprised by the pathetic offensive showing. This team will get better. It has every year.
I'm worried about the body language of our more experienced players. Seems like they were OK with the blowout did not see any sense of urgency.
Quote from: real chili 83 on November 16, 2013, 02:10:23 PM
Did we expect to go undefeated this year?
It's about how we finish.
I will start to panic in March.
Go Warriors!!!
My concern from day one was guard play, specifically point guard play. Is it a big deal to lose at home early on to a good team, no. Is it a concern that we don't have solid point guard play and just set a 67 year record for the fewest points scored at home by a MU team. Yes.
Hopefully some of the guards step up, get healthy, etc, but doesn't matter how good your bigs are if your guards don't play well.
It is a guards game in college hoops.
About 9% through the season. History shows us that things get better. History also shows that our starting backcourt has no talent. Nobody shoots 18% over a season. So some things have to give.
Teams can learn a lot more from a loss than they can from a win. There's a lot to look at and improve upon this team. It's easy to point to the offense and say they need to score more points. The work will come from the adjustments that need to be made (shot selection, lineup adjustments, and play packages for certain looks).
I have honestly never doubted any coaching decisions Buzz has made. While he is a great motivator and judge of talent, his true skill is having a feel for the game of basketball. When things are not going well, he always seems to make the right personnel decisions, or draw up the right play, or say the right thing to kick the butt of the team and push it in the right direction.
BTW, as a first time poster, I have read some really insightful analysis and commentary from all of you on the scoop over the years! As proud as I am to be an MU grad, and I even more proud of the following we have all over the country. Let's keep it up!
Cheers!
It was The Ohio State University on national tv. It was a very big deal!
Today's game was less important than any game from December 31 on. No big deal is exactly right.
Yeah its one game, but it was so disheartening to see MU play that poorly. 35 points? Ugh.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 16, 2013, 02:30:32 PM
My concern from day one was guard play, specifically point guard play. Is it a big deal to lose at home early on to a good team, no. Is it a concern that we don't have solid point guard play and just set a 67 year record for the fewest points scored at home by a MU team. Yes.
Hopefully some of the guards step up, get healthy, etc, but doesn't matter how good your bigs are if your guards don't play well.
It is a guards game in college hoops.
I agree with absolutely every word here, Chicos.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
Yep. I wasn't surprised at the outcome. I was surprised by the pathetic offensive showing. This team will get better. It has every year.
Well, given that it was the worst scoring output since decades before Fonzie invented Milwaukee, it pretty much can't help but get better.
Quote from: flash on November 16, 2013, 02:25:13 PM
Definitely not the end of the world, but if they don't get the point guard situation figured out it is going to be a long season. One thing we learned today Derrick Wilson is not the answer.
Derrick is a back up, but Buzz will not have the gonads to make it so.
Quote from: DoggyDaddy on November 16, 2013, 02:15:15 PM
Don't want to see another once of these to end the year like we have seen before. Now is not as bad despite the national TV.
Glad Satch did not wait another day to decide, though.
Oh great, this tired old bulls*** again.
You do realize that the NCAA tournament is "NATIONALLY TELEVISED"?
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:21:55 PM
You do realize that the NCAA tournament is "NATIONALLY TELEVISED"?
Yeah, and this really reminded me of the last time we played Syracuse.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 16, 2013, 06:05:23 PM
Yeah, and this really reminded me of the last time we played Syracuse.
vs. when we housed Miami, beat Butler, and Davidson?
But yeah, let's focus on the negative only.
We out rebounded the other team and shot 19 %. Blame it on Homer not being there and move on.
Quote from: Mutaman on November 16, 2013, 06:05:23 PM
Yeah, and this really reminded me of the last time we played Syracuse.
Yep .. I was thinking the same thing.
This team .. isn't that much different than the one that played Syracuse. We lost Vander, Junior and Trent, none of whom were good outside shooters .. and their minutes replaced by .. even worse shooters .. DWill (downgrade), Jake (downgrade).
The balance of MU's attack last year was tenuous. This year, it's downgraded. Unless Buzz injects some new players into the mix who can hit outside the paint, we'll have more games like this one.
No big deal
Is what opposing defenses will say when they execute what tOSU did and MU's guards can't do sh*t!!!
If you're going to have a horrible offensive game, I'd prefer it to be extremely early in the year against arguably the best defensive team in the nation and their senior point guard.
Buzz's odd personnel decisions can be "fixed".
To score 35 points the lowest in decades and say its no big deal is burying your head in the sand. Buzz has to change the backcourt lineup despite his loyalty to some of his players.
It frustrates me ot no end, when people say early season losses are "no big deal". A loss counts just as much in November, as it does in January or February. Those of you who seem to have this idea that playing well in the conference and that losing a non conference game is "no big deal", have no idea what basketball is about. You play to win the game. This wasn't an exhibition game. It was a game that officially counted on MU's record. The committee will tell you non conference games matter(non conference does NOT=exhibiton games), they always have, they always will. Bottom line, bury yourself a deep enough hole in non conference and it won't matter one damn bit what you do come December 31st. So please refrain from the laisse fair attitudes. THEY ALL COUNT THE SAME. A loss vs. Creighton on December 31st, will count for 1 loss on their record, just like...wait for it...just like the Ohio State game did.
Agree, muguru.
Although I'd disagree that "they all count the same" beyond the "1" in the loss column.
This was a big loss, at home, and it shows our weakness starting the year, which, oh by the way, was our weakness in just the last decent opponent we played, scoring 39 points on an even bigger stage.
It's a big deal.
Loss like yesterday is a big deal regardless of the time of year. You have to play the players that give you best chance to win and hopefully we will see that in upcoming games.
Did last year's blowout at Florida have a major impact on our season? Did the Vandy home loss? In this day and age, no on goes undefeated and unfortunate though it may be, streaks are made to be broken. There will be plenty of more-important games to get worked up about, most important the near-inevitable loss that will end our season.
I don't think anyone is happy to lose, but this board feels like the guy who was yelling at me yesterday after the final buzzer saying we should all be embarrassed. I feel that's a short-sighted approach, and if I've learned anything in the Buzz era, it's that the important stuff happens after we put the new calendar on the wall.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 10:36:39 AM
Did last year's blowout at Florida have a major impact on our season? Did the Vandy home loss? In this day and age, no on goes undefeated and unfortunate though it may be, streaks are made to be broken. There will be plenty of more-important games to get worked up about, most important the near-inevitable loss that will end our season.
I don't think anyone is happy to lose, but this board feels like the guy who was yelling at me yesterday after the final buzzer saying we should all be embarrassed. I feel that's a short-sighted approach, and if I've learned anything in the Buzz era, it's that the important stuff happens after we put the new calendar on the wall.
+1
Why on earth should any MU fan be "embarrassed" by any loss?
You're not out there playing or coaching. You just get to watch.
In last years FL loss we a glimpse of what Vander would bring all season. MU needs a go to guy and they might need to go to bench to find one.
Quote from: Goose on November 17, 2013, 11:02:41 AM
In last years FL loss we a glimpse of what Vander would bring all season. MU needs a go to guy and they might need to go to bench to find one.
I think it's far more likely that said go-to guy was on the court yesterday. The problem was one of the candidates missed 12 shots and the other simply hasn't yet shown the will to impose himself on the game.
Quote from: muguru on November 16, 2013, 10:38:36 PM
It frustrates me ot no end, when people say early season losses are "no big deal". A loss counts just as much in November, as it does in January or February. Those of you who seem to have this idea that playing well in the conference and that losing a non conference game is "no big deal", have no idea what basketball is about. You play to win the game. This wasn't an exhibition game. It was a game that officially counted on MU's record. The committee will tell you non conference games matter(non conference does NOT=exhibiton games), they always have, they always will. Bottom line, bury yourself a deep enough hole in non conference and it won't matter one damn bit what you do come December 31st. So please refrain from the laisse fair attitudes. THEY ALL COUNT THE SAME. A loss vs. Creighton on December 31st, will count for 1 loss on their record, just like...wait for it...just like the Ohio State game did.
A loss in November doesn't end the season. Wins in March are bigger.
Can you guys think of a scenario where you would indeed think a loss was a big deal?
Beginning of the year? Middle or end? Home court loss, away? Lose by 2, 12, or 20+ blow out? Score 80 yet lose, score <40 and lose?
When do you sit back and say "holy crap, that was a bad display, a bad omen for the future"?
In the past X years, has MU ever had a loss that was "a big deal" in your view? (Injuries notwithstanding.)
I imagine if I did a search after each of MU's "big" losses, there'd be a chunk of guys consistently posting how it wasn't that big of a deal. Curious if you'd ever see it that way .. or does a later NCAA invite justify the position that no "big loss" really is, if it doesn't knock us from the NCAAs...?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 17, 2013, 12:00:58 PM
Can you guys think of a scenario where you would indeed think a loss was a big deal?
Beginning of the year? Middle or end? Home court loss, away? Lose by 2, 12, or 20+ blow out? Score 80 yet lose, score <40 and lose?
When do you sit back and say "holy crap, that was a bad display, a bad omen for the future"?
In the past X years, has MU ever had a loss that was "a big deal" in your view? (Injuries notwithstanding.)
I imagine if I did a search after each of MU's "big" losses, there'd be a chunk of guys consistently posting how it wasn't that big of a deal. Curious if you'd ever see it that way .. or does a later NCAA invite justify the position that no "big loss" really is, if it doesn't knock us from the NCAAs...?
I hear your point. However we count it only once in the loss column.
For me, the loss last year that was a big deal was the loss to Syracuse in the tournament. That was a big deal. It ended our season, and our shot at a NC.
The loss yesterday, will be probably one of 10 (plus or minus a few) that we will have this year. If we bounce back from this, and win the BE, and have a great showing in March, yesterday's loss will be no big deal. They happen. It is a long season.
This "no big deal" comment is not to be confused with the need to take every game seriously....you play the game to win....always.
To state the obvious this is only a big deal if nothing changes going forward. I simply refuse to believe that this game doesn't result in some personnel changes how can it not? I also worry about the mental ramifications of this loss, the MU team I saw last night wil not ever be able to compete with top teams. Actually the more I think about it this is a big deal given the body language of the players and the coaching vs OSU.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 17, 2013, 12:00:58 PM
Can you guys think of a scenario where you would indeed think a loss was a big deal?
Beginning of the year? Middle or end? Home court loss, away? Lose by 2, 12, or 20+ blow out? Score 80 yet lose, score <40 and lose?
When do you sit back and say "holy crap, that was a bad display, a bad omen for the future"?
In the past X years, has MU ever had a loss that was "a big deal" in your view? (Injuries notwithstanding.)
I imagine if I did a search after each of MU's "big" losses, there'd be a chunk of guys consistently posting how it wasn't that big of a deal. Curious if you'd ever see it that way .. or does a later NCAA invite justify the position that no "big loss" really is, if it doesn't knock us from the NCAAs...?
Feel free to search my posts. I felt the loss to St. John's at home was a pretty big deal. The multiple losses to Louisville all qualify as big losses, most notably puking up a huge lead in the last 5 minutes at Assembly Hall. Any conference loss is bigger than a non-con loss. Any season ending loss is bigger than a November loss. And thus far under Buzz, I can't remember any loss that cost us a spot in the NCAAs. I would welcome anyone to refresh me on the November losses under Buzz that cost us a NCAA berth that I can't recall. Doubt anyone will find any, though.
It sucked. It wasn't pretty. It was November. It counts one in the loss column.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 17, 2013, 12:00:58 PM
Can you guys think of a scenario where you would indeed think a loss was a big deal?
Beginning of the year? Middle or end? Home court loss, away? Lose by 2, 12, or 20+ blow out? Score 80 yet lose, score <40 and lose?
When do you sit back and say "holy crap, that was a bad display, a bad omen for the future"?
In the past X years, has MU ever had a loss that was "a big deal" in your view? (Injuries notwithstanding.)
I imagine if I did a search after each of MU's "big" losses, there'd be a chunk of guys consistently posting how it wasn't that big of a deal. Curious if you'd ever see it that way .. or does a later NCAA invite justify the position that no "big loss" really is, if it doesn't knock us from the NCAAs...?
Every November, December (or January or February ) a "bad" loss is the end of the world on Scoop. When we lost to DePaul in 2009-10 even normally sane Chicos told us to kiss our NCAA hopes goodbye. We ended up with a 6 seed. Off the top of my head, bad losses to Florida, Florida St, N Carolina St, UWGB and LSU and even "bad wins" like Norfork St almost ended our seasons well before Christmas in the minds of the same guys sounding the alarm yesterday and today.
I don't know if this bad loss is the harbinger of a bad season. Maybe this time the naysayers will be right. But as they've been wrong time after time after time on this during Buzz's tenure pardon me if I don't bet the farm on it just yet.
Quote from: raul on November 16, 2013, 10:11:31 PM
To score 35 points the lowest in decades and say its no big deal is burying your head in the sand. Buzz has to change the backcourt lineup despite his loyalty to some of his players.
Part of this was because once Ohio St got the lead they were using 35 seconds on every possesssion.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 17, 2013, 01:15:46 PM
Every November, December (or January or February ) a "bad" loss is the end of the world on Scoop. When we lost to DePaul in 2009-10 even normally sane Chicos told us to kiss our NCAA hopes goodbye. We ended up with a 6 seed. Off the top of my head, bad losses to Florida, Florida St, N Carolina St, UWGB and LSU and even "bad wins" like Norfork St almost ended our seasons well before Christmas in the minds of the same guys sounding the alarm yesterday and today.
I don't know if this bad loss is the harbinger of a bad season. Maybe this time the naysayers will be right. But as they've been wrong time after time after time on this during Buzz's tenure pardon me if I don't bet the farm on it just yet.
Really...care to find it. Please use search. I just went there, said nothing of the kind. Said the NIT could have some name brand teams in it like UNC, UCLA, MU, etc, but a long way to go. Let me know when you find anything about kissing our NCAA chances good bye.
To help you with your search, the loss was 1,401 days from today, that will help you. There was another thread where someone said we wouldn't make the NCAAs or NIT, and I told him we would definitely make the NIT (didn't say we wouldn't make the NCAAs, but the prospect of not making the NIT was silly).
Thanks
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2013, 01:37:54 PM
Really...care to find it. Please use search. I just went there, said nothing of the kind. Said the NIT could have some name brand teams in it like UNC, UCLA, MU, etc, but a long way to go. Let me know when you find anything about kissing our NCAA chances good bye.
To help you with your search, the loss was 1,401 days from today, that will help you. There was another thread where someone said we wouldn't make the NCAAs or NIT, and I told him we would definitely make the NIT (didn't say we wouldn't make the NCAAs, but the prospect of not making the NIT was silly).
Thanks
On January 20, 2010 at 10:10:44 Milwaukee time you wrote "Is this serious? Maybe we can stop the NCAA talk now. What an embarrassment."
Your welcome.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 20, 2010, 10:10:44 PM
I'm at a restaurant for dinner and just got an alert on MU iPhone.
Is this serious? Maybe we can stop the NCAA talk now
What an embarassment
Quote from: bilsu on November 17, 2013, 01:19:26 PM
Part of this was because once Ohio St got the lead they were using 35 seconds on every possesssion.
And that's the other reason we were able to hold them to a mere 52 pts.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 17, 2013, 02:13:07 PM
On January 20, 2010 at 10:10:44 Milwaukee time you wrote "Is this serious? Maybe we can stop the NCAA talk now. What an embarrassment."
Your welcome.
LOL. Context sugar....go and read the posts the week prior, that is what it was in response to from some of the jugheads after we beat Providence by 30 points and they were slotting us in for a bid already. Slow down with the NCAA talk. Hardly said NCAA dreams were done....give me a break.
Look at the other posts Jan 20 through Jan 30th which more than explain that. Good try, though.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2013, 03:52:51 PM
LOL. Context sugar....go and read the posts the week prior, that is what it was in response to from some of the jugheads after we beat Providence by 30 points and they were slotting us in for a bid already. Slow down with the NCAA talk. Hardly said NCAA dreams were done....give me a break.
Look at the other posts Jan 20 through Jan 30th which more than explain that. Good try, though.
Total, unadulterated, BS. You absolutely did not say "slow down" the talk of an NCAA bid. You said STOP any talk of an NCAA bid. As in, it ain't gonna happen....sugar. When you're busted, just admit it. Making up stuff you didn't say won't cut it. You sound like the early defenders of the "if you like it you can keep it" statement. How's that for irony?
Sorry, Chicos, they've got the quote.
Quote from: real chili 83 on November 17, 2013, 12:21:43 PM
The loss yesterday, will be probably one of 10 (plus or minus a few) that we will have this year. If we bounce back from this, and win the BE, and have a great showing in March, yesterday's loss will be no big deal. They happen. It is a long season.
I agree with your bolded prediction above. I hope the rest of the statement turns out correct. I have some concerns, and they are the same concerns I had last year at this point.
Last year, we were in a similar situation. After DJO and Jae left, I was concerned who was going to lead the team. It turned out to be Vander. While he always had the confidence, last year he improved at finishing at the basket, hitting more of his jumpers, and making decent passes inside. He stepped up to be a leader who could finish.
That person has yet to step up this year. Many of us had hoped for Jamil. I'm not certain that will pan out. Todd has the confidence, but I don't see the consistent skillset. Davante can dominate the middle, but contrary to the opinion of some posters here, a big man cannot lead the entire offense like a good point guard or shooting guard. I believe STJ will improve, and can be a monster rebounder, but is likely not ready to lead. I'm optimistic about the freshman, but this year, they are freshman. In summary, I don't see someone yet with skills, experience and killer instinct to be the leader.
I pray someone steps up. If someone has the capacity to step up, I'm confident Buzz will make it happen. I am extremely optimistic on the future and direction of the program. However, I'm still concerned (like I was last year, incorrectly) that this year may be a pause in our climb toward the top.
That reminds me .. Kenpom has us at 16-13 for the season now, every away and neutral game as a loss.
I'd imagine 16-13 is the floor of any list of predictions .. odd that his models have us there.
Anyone recall what it looked like 2 weeks ago?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 17, 2013, 06:40:58 PM
That reminds me .. Kenpom has us at 16-13 for the season now, every away and neutral game as a loss.
I'd imagine 16-13 is the floor of any list of predictions .. odd that his models have us there.
Anyone recall what it looked like 2 weeks ago?
I think 18 or 19 wins. His early season models for us always seem to trend pretty close to a .500 record.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 17, 2013, 04:11:35 PM
Total, unadulterated, BS. You absolutely did not say "slow down" the talk of an NCAA bid. You said STOP any talk of an NCAA bid. As in, it ain't gonna happen....sugar. When you're busted, just admit it. Making up stuff you didn't say won't cut it. You sound like the early defenders of the "if you like it you can keep it" statement. How's that for irony?
Sugarpie honey, here's what I said before, during and after those games. By the way, in a thread titled "for those of you who think we are going to the NIT" did I say anything that confirmed we were going to the NIT? Nope, even though there were those that said that was the case, one even predicted MU would play IU.
Did I like our NCAA chances then....I sure didn't...I'll give you that in a heartbeat.
Some examples:
"This team has a long long way to go to get to the NCAAs. Yes, there is a chance, but things have to break very well for MU."
-4 days after DePaul loss....did I say we were NIT bound? I certainly said we had a long way to go to the NCAAs, but said there was a chance...and then we went on a run. Sorry to break it to you Lenny.
"I don't think we have to win out, but tonight was a tremendous opportunity lost. This is where the DePaul game hurts so bad."
"MU has a tremendous opportunity in front of them right now. They also have a few losses that could hold them back. That is why they are on the bubble and not a lock right now. If MU had beaten DePaul and NCState, hard not to see them as a virtual lock at this point. Let's hope they take care of this opportunity and go 4-2 in the final 6 games. That should be enough."
And for giggles, you might want to go back and read the thread the night we lost to DePaul. LOL. http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=17421.0
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on November 17, 2013, 05:39:52 PM
Sorry, Chicos, they've got the quote.
Exactly, Topper. He can obfuscate with insults or stuff he said 4 days or 2 weeks later when the landscape changed, but he can't run away from what said that night.
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 16, 2013, 06:06:50 PM
vs. when we housed Miami, beat Butler, and Davidson?
But yeah, let's focus on the negative only.
Butler and Davidson could've gone either way, so it's basically one very good game against Miami vs two really poor showings against Syracuse and Ohio State. All three are good teams, but 1-2 in those laughers isn't exactly inspiring.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2013, 07:08:11 PM
Sugarpie honey...
Come on...it's a quote. Own it, move on. This song-and-dance is why people love cornering you, because right now you look like the worm trying to both wriggle off a hook and out of the fish's mouth at the same time.