After a brief hiatus, we're back with some Synergy breakdown. This time, it's where Derrick Wilson's assists came from and why it needs to change this year:
http://painttouches.com/2013/08/26/the-art-of-passing-derrick-wilson/
Thank you for using statistics to confirm what I (and many other observers) thought was true.
It's pretty simple, really: If Derrick is to be a legit D-1 PG, he has to break down his defender, get into the lane and set up his teammates for high-percentage shots. If he can't do that, others must get the opportunity.
Buzz is loyal and wants to reward a veteran player who has done what's been asked of him in the past. But he also is a coach who wants to win. As the season progresses, he will play the PG who makes winning more likely.
Derrick will play regardless of his offense production because he provides great defense and energy off the bench. He is a role player and his status won't change, so I don't think he needs to do much different than what he did last year. Obviously some offense would be a bonus.
Quote from: teamdee on August 26, 2013, 01:47:35 PM
Derrick will play regardless of his offense production because he provides great defense and energy off the bench. He is a role player and his status won't change, so I don't think he needs to do much different than what he did last year. Obviously some offense would be a bonus.
I disagree totally.
If Buzz wanted more of what Derrick brings, he would have played DW more minutes last year than he played Cadougan -- especially since Buzz said more than once that Derrick "deserved" to start. But for all that motivational "deserves to start" stuff, Buzz wanted a PG who at least was a threat to beat defenders, set up teammates and hit the occasional shot.
As is the case with the vast majority of major-college coaches, Buzz wants his primary PG to do something on offense. He will need to see that from Derrick this season or Derrick will be eclipsed by Duane.
Quote from: MU82 on August 26, 2013, 02:01:27 PM
I disagree totally.
If Buzz wanted more of what Derrick brings, he would have played DW more minutes last year than he played Cadougan -- especially since Buzz said more than once that Derrick "deserved" to start. But for all that motivational "deserves to start" stuff, Buzz wanted a PG who at least was a threat to beat defenders, set up teammates and hit the occasional shot.
As is the case with the vast majority of major-college coaches, Buzz wants his primary PG to do something on offense. He will need to see that from Derrick this season or Derrick will be eclipsed by Duane.
Not to speak for teamdee, but I don't think he disagrees with you. I think he is simply saying that he will play, even if it is in a back up role.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 26, 2013, 03:02:51 PM
Not to speak for teamdee, but I don't think he disagrees with you. I think he is simply saying that he will play, even if it is in a back up role.
Oh ... of course Derrick will play. Even if Buzz decides that Duane is a far superior option, I would expect Derrick to play at least as much as he did last year to bring defense and maturity.
Yes, now we are speaking on the same terms MU82.
Buzz will use the D Wils this season the same way he used Oxtule last season. when we need offense, Duane will play. When we need defense Derrek will play. If Duane starts to excel at defense or if Derrek discovers his shot, one may start over the other.
My gut tells me that Buzz will start Derrek, at least at first.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on August 26, 2013, 04:14:09 PM
My gut tells me that Buzz will start Derrek, at least at first.
Only thing that might throw a wrench in that is if Buzz decides on a "five toughest guys" lineup against Southern & Grambling, at which point who friggin knows who would start.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on August 26, 2013, 04:21:27 PM
Only thing that might throw a wrench in that is if Buzz decides on a "five toughest guys" lineup against Southern & Grambling, at which point who friggin knows who would start.
He will start Derrik, if he looking for the toughest lineup.
I cannot help but wonder if Buzz will continue his tradition of a surprise starter. He started Reggie Smith at point over Buycks and Cadougan so it should not be a surprise if either Wilson starts. However, I could see him starting either Thomas or Juan at point just because Buzz does crazy things.
It really is not a question about playing time as both Wilson's will play 18-22 minutes a game. It is more of who they will be teamed with. Derrick will be on the floor when both Otule and Gardner are on the floor. Duane will be teamed with McKay. Muscle with muscle and speed with speed.
Quote from: bilsu on August 26, 2013, 07:11:48 PM
He will start Derrik, if he looking for the toughest lineup.
I cannot help but wonder if Buzz will continue his tradition of a surprise starter. He started Reggie Smith at point over Buycks and Cadougan so it should not be a surprise if either Wilson starts. However, I could see him starting either Thomas or Juan at point just because Buzz does crazy things.
It really is not a question about playing time as both Wilson's will play 18-22 minutes a game. It is more of who they will be teamed with. Derrick will be on the floor when both Otule and Gardner are on the floor. Duane will be teamed with McKay. Muscle with muscle and speed with speed.
That surprise starter "tradition" is a crock. That really worked well with both Erik Williams and Reggie Smith. If Buzz started Juan at point--yeah you are right, he would be crazy.
Derrick will start and finish as starting point guard this year.
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 26, 2013, 07:45:12 PM
Derrick will start and finish as starting point guard this year.
I hope you are right because that will mean Derrick will have proven he can be a D1 PG.
He has shown zero evidence of that being the case so far in his college career, but as many have pointed out on other posts, guys do improve.
Derrick has the experience that MU needs from the point but duane has the talent that takes MU to the next level. It should be interesting to see the progress from both of them. My guess is that Du. is playing a few more min. than Der. per game by the end of the season.
Quote from: MU82 on August 26, 2013, 09:18:08 PM
I hope you are right because that will mean Derrick will have proven he can be a D1 PG.
He has shown zero evidence of that being the case so far in his college career, but as many have pointed out on other posts, guys do improve.
Sure, it was two years ago, but I am hoping the Madison game was insight to what his abilities are. He's definitely got the leadership qualities that role requires. Buzz made him a team captain for a reason.
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 27, 2013, 05:58:46 AM
Sure, it was two years ago, but I am hoping the Madison game was insight to what his abilities are. He's definitely got the leadership qualities that role requires. Buzz made him a team captain for a reason.
The game at Madison has grown to legendary proportions.
He played fine that game. 20 minutes. No points, no assists, two rebounds. Yeah, he played good defense on Jordan Taylor (who still managed to be UW's leading scorer by the way), but Vander Blue did as well.
I'm not sure why people keep going back to that game as some sort of reaffirmation of Derrick's abilities. He will have to be better than that to be the guy next year.
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 26, 2013, 07:45:12 PM
Derrick will start and finish as starting point guard this year.
Not if he continues with his 2013 stats. All the defense in the world won't keep him in the game and on numerous occasions last year he picked up quick reach in fouls outside the perimeter.
27% FG
14% 3 Point
45% FT
The PG position will be the talk of the early season.
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 26, 2013, 07:45:12 PM
Derrick will start and finish as starting point guard this year.
If he does, it will be 3 to 5minutes per half, because we will be needing some offense and solid passing from the PG position.
Quote from: real chili 83 on August 27, 2013, 05:58:46 AM
Sure, it was two years ago, but I am hoping the Madison game was insight to what his abilities are. He's definitely got the leadership qualities that role requires. Buzz made him a team captain for a reason.
Although risky due to the turd-like performance of the team, I think the game where Derrick really showed his abilities was @ FL. He was able to get to the rim and finish and was aggressive when almost no one else on the team was. To me, that showed he is capable of leadership and at least the occasional successful foray to the rim. He scored 6 on 3-5 shooting, and had 2 each of assists/rebounds/steals with only 1 turnover in 22 minutes.
IF he can consistently provide that line, along with even marginal improvement on shooting from outside and the FT line, he will play a good chunk of minutes, no matter how good Duane is.
I can't wait to see, that's for sure.
A great athlete who is a stellar defender, much faster than the opposition and can't/won't do anything on offense... He is going to enter the draft after this year.
Quote from: MU82 on August 26, 2013, 09:18:08 PM
I hope you are right because that will mean Derrick will have proven he can be a D1 PG.
He has shown zero evidence of that being the case so far in his college career, but as many have pointed out on other posts, guys do improve.
I do not know how you can say there is zero evidence. We won at Wisconsin with Derrick playing point as a freshmen when Buzz suspended Cadougan for the game.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 27, 2013, 08:02:04 AM
If he does, it will be 3 to 5minutes per half, because we will be needing some offense and solid passing from the PG position.
Well there is no way Duane Wilson is going to play 30 minutes a game. My guess is Derrick starts and plays on average 17 minutes and Duane plays 21 allowing 2 minutes for Dawson, etc.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 08:44:48 AM
I do not know how you can say there is zero evidence. We won at Wisconsin with Derrick playing point as a freshmen when Buzz suspended Cadougan for the game.
Ehhh....again "The Legend of Madison"
20 minutes...zero points...zero assits. He was fine. Hardly the performance it has been made out to be.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 08:49:27 AM
Well there is no way Duane Wilson is going to play 30 minutes a game. My guess is Derrick starts and plays on average 17 minutes and Duane plays 21 allowing 2 minutes for Dawson, etc.
As always with Buzz, minutes will be distributed in any particular game based on what is needed for that game or what is working. I think Derrick will start, but when the offense is stagnant we'll go to Duane, and if the defense is shoddy Derrick will be back in. Minutes will vary based on opponent and situation.
Quote from: CTWarrior on August 27, 2013, 09:01:05 AM
As always with Buzz, minutes will be distributed in any particular game based on what is needed for that game or what is working. I think Derrick will start, but when the offense is stagnant we'll go to Duane, and if the defense is shoddy Derrick will be back in. Minutes will vary based on opponent and situation.
This is probably most accurate/most realistic of all the posts so far. I do think that Derrick will step up his game and we will see much better stats from him this year offensively. Just my opinion.
While they aren't similar players, this reminds me of the Vander discussions before the beginning of last season.
I still see some upside in Derrick's game. He's never going to be Reggie Miller. But, could he shoot 40% from the field, get to the line a little, and get a handful of assists? I think so.
20+ min. per game.
5 pts.
4 ast.
1.5 reb.
I think he can do that. That's a nice role player.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on August 27, 2013, 09:51:49 AM
While they aren't similar players, this reminds me of the Vander discussions before the beginning of last season.
I still see some upside in Derrick's game. He's never going to be Reggie Miller. But, could he shoot 40% from the field, get to the line a little, and get a handful of assists? I think so.
20+ min. per game.
5 pts.
4 ast.
1.5 reb.
I think he can do that. That's a nice role player.
Reggie Miller? Hell, offensively he'll never be Cheryl Miller. But I agree he can be a solid role player.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on August 27, 2013, 09:51:49 AM
I still see some upside in Derrick's game. He's never going to be Reggie Miller. But, could he shoot 40% from the field, get to the line a little, and get a handful of assists? I think so.
Where he is a career 46% FT shooter. One of several -- OK, pretty much every -- offensive area in which Derrick needs to improve to be a D1 PG.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 27, 2013, 09:00:04 AM
Ehhh....again "The Legend of Madison"
20 minutes...zero points...zero assits. He was fine. Hardly the performance it has been made out to be.
Terror: I have pointed this exact thing out on several occasions but folks keep going back to that game as "proof."
If Derrick averages zero points and zero assists over 20 minutes, no matter how good his defense is, he can't be a starting PG of a team expected to get to the NCAAs and advance within them.
We actually have a thread positing a national title. Has a national champion ever had a PG that can't play even a little offense?
Not saying Derrick won't improve. I hope like hell he does. But, again, he has shown zero, zip, nada so far.
Quote from: MU82 on August 27, 2013, 12:26:50 PM
Terror: I have pointed this exact thing out on several occasions but folks keep going back to that game as "proof."
If Derrick averages zero points and zero assists over 20 minutes, no matter how good his defense is, he can't be a starting PG of a team expected to get to the NCAAs and advance within them.
We actually have a thread positing a national title. Has a national champion ever had a PG that can't play even a little offense?
Not saying Derrick won't improve. I hope like hell he does. But, again, he has shown zero, zip, nada so far.
I'm one who refers to that game.
I am agreeing with you, if the Madison game is as good as it will ever get with Derrick. However, I speculate we will see significant growth in his game this year. With two years of development and growth, his game will have likely rounded out when he takes the helm this year.
By the time conference play starts, Duane Wilson will have mastered "The art of passing Derrick Wilson"... on the depth chart.
/rimshot
Quote from: MU82 on August 27, 2013, 12:24:28 PM
Where he is a career 46% FT shooter. One of several -- OK, pretty much every -- offensive area in which Derrick needs to improve to be a D1 PG.
Totally fair.
I don't expect the guy to get there that often, or have a stroke like Novak.
I guess my view is that he can't possibly be any worse.
The kid is a very good athlete, and has some good physical tools. His games needs refinement and improvement, but I think he can be a solid 20min. guy.
Make 1 or 2 free throws per game. Make a lay-up or 2. Make the occasional 3pter. Boom. 5pts per game.
Quote from: MU82 on August 27, 2013, 12:26:50 PM
Terror: I have pointed this exact thing out on several occasions but folks keep going back to that game as "proof."
If Derrick averages zero points and zero assists over 20 minutes, no matter how good his defense is, he can't be a starting PG of a team expected to get to the NCAAs and advance within them.
We actually have a thread positing a national title. Has a national champion ever had a PG that can't play even a little offense?
Not saying Derrick won't improve. I hope like hell he does. But, again, he has shown zero, zip, nada so far.
But we won the game. Picture Herm Edwards "Hello, you play to win the game"
Also I should note that I think Duane is going to be legit, and play quite a bit
A point guard scoring zero in a win is great. A point guard scoring 15 in a loss is not. the only thing that matters is whether the team wins or not. It is not that I have high hopes for Derrick's game taking a significant jump, it is that I thing you guys are expecting to much out of a freshmen.
Quote from: swoopem on August 27, 2013, 01:16:42 PM
But we won the game. Picture Herm Edwards "Hello, you play to win the game"
Herm Edwards quote has nothing to do with that game. Completely different context. Not to mention that he's a moron.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 02:14:33 PM
A point guard scoring zero in a win is great. A point guard scoring 15 in a loss is not. the only thing that matters is whether the team wins or not.
A point guard scoring 15 in a win is better.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 02:14:33 PM
It is not that I have high hopes for Derrick's game taking a significant jump, it is that I thing you guys are expecting to much out of a freshmen.
No, I'm just putting that game in its proper context. Everyone is pointing to it as proof of his ability to play, but he really didn't do much that game. He was fine. It doesn't portend to anything.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 27, 2013, 02:45:19 PM
Herm Edwards quote has nothing to do with that game. Completely different context. Not to mention that he's a moron.
This, such an idiot.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 27, 2013, 02:45:19 PM
Herm Edwards quote has nothing to do with that game. Completely different context. Not to mention that he's a moron.
A point guard scoring 15 in a win is better.
No, I'm just putting that game in its proper context. Everyone is pointing to it as proof of his ability to play, but he really didn't do much that game. He was fine. It doesn't portend to anything.
I was at the game, were you? When they annouced that Cadougan was not going to play, I thought we had no chance to win. Wilson came in took care of the ball and played great defense on Taylor. Without Wilson we would not of won that game.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 04:07:36 PM
I was at the game, were you?
Yes.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 04:07:36 PM
When they annouced that Cadougan was not going to play, I thought we had no chance to win.
I did not have the same feeling.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 04:07:36 PM
Wilson came in took care of the ball and played great defense on Taylor. Without Wilson we would not of won that game.
I don't know if you can make that statement. You realize that he only played 20 minutes right? That means someone else was bringing up the ball for over half of that game. That means someone else was playing defense on Taylor too.
Again, he played fine. It doesn't mean jack sh*t when determining how he would play this year however.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on August 27, 2013, 12:45:49 PM
Totally fair.
I don't expect the guy to get there that often, or have a stroke like Novak.
I guess my view is that he can't possibly be any worse.
The kid is a very good athlete, and has some good physical tools. His games needs refinement and improvement, but I think he can be a solid 20min. guy.
Make 1 or 2 free throws per game. Make a lay-up or 2. Make the occasional 3pter. Boom. 5pts per game.
Yeah, that's real good rationale to start the guy and give him 20 minutes per game. "He can't possibly be any worse."
Quote from: willie warrior on August 27, 2013, 04:37:39 PM
Yeah, that's real good rationale to start the guy and give him 20 minutes per game. "He can't possibly be any worse."
At the free throw line. I was referring to free throws. I don't think Derrick can be worse than 46%.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 27, 2013, 04:37:39 PM
Yeah, that's real good rationale to start the guy and give him 20 minutes per game. "He can't possibly be any worse."
So what's your rationale to start Duane? He was good in HS?
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on August 27, 2013, 05:10:53 PM
So what's your rationale to start Duane? He was good in HS?
What two state titles, a high recruit ranking and a good shot by all accounts. That is a hell of a lot better rationale than "he can't possibly be any worse" for De. Wilson.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 27, 2013, 06:58:37 PM
What two state titles, a high recruit ranking and a good shot by all accounts. That is a hell of a lot better rationale than "he can't possibly be any worse" for De. Wilson.
I'll just leave it that I'm glad you have nothing to do with our basketball program.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 27, 2013, 06:58:37 PM
What two state titles, a high recruit ranking and a good shot by all accounts. That is a hell of a lot better rationale than "he can't possibly be any worse" for De. Wilson.
Again, you're taking my post out of context. I was speaking specifically of his free throw shooting.
Do you have a prediction on the number of minutes Derrick will play?
Maybe a friendly wager?
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 02:14:33 PM
A point guard scoring zero in a win is great. A point guard scoring 15 in a loss is not. the only thing that matters is whether the team wins or not. It is not that I have high hopes for Derrick's game taking a significant jump, it is that I thing you guys are expecting to much out of a freshmen.
I don't know what to expect from Duane. I've never seen him play one second of one game. And those who did see him play in H.S. haven't seen him play one second of one NCAA game.
I hope he's great, because serious teams need a great PG.
What I will say is that Derrick hasn't exactly set a high bar for Duane to jump over.
Who cares about the UW game? Its not the end all be all game of De.Wilson. The guy deserves the first chance to prove his stuff this year. He knows the system and the players better than Duane, but if can only score 4 points and maybe 1 or 2 assists per game then he needs to be replaced. The problem is that Du. is a freshman and will make freshman mistakes and so Buzz may feel that De. is the better of two evils, time will tell.
Hey Raul, they will complement each other. Duane will not replace Derrick.
Quote from: raul on August 28, 2013, 12:35:12 AM
Who cares about the UW game? Its not the end all be all game of De.Wilson. The guy deserves the first chance to prove his stuff this year. He knows the system and the players better than Duane, but if can only score 4 points and maybe 1 or 2 assists per game then he needs to be replaced. The problem is that Du. is a freshman and will make freshman mistakes and so Buzz may feel that De. is the better of two evils, time will tell.
I do
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on August 27, 2013, 07:06:39 PM
I'll just leave it that I'm glad you have nothing to do with our basketball program.
Same to you.
bilsu, I cant wait to see MU beat UW again but my point was that we cant put so much weight on that one game. Its the overall pattern of derricks game. My opinion is that he needs to have a few more assists a game to make his teammates better and needs to be more of a scoring threat. As for teamdee, you may be right but then again a talent like duane is hard to keep on the bench.
Quote from: raul on August 30, 2013, 11:28:22 PM
bilsu, I cant wait to see MU beat UW again but my point was that we cant put so much weight on that one game. Its the overall pattern of derricks game. My opinion is that he needs to have a few more assists a game to make his teammates better and needs to be more of a scoring threat. As for teamdee, you may be right but then again a talent like duane is hard to keep on the bench.
I'm with bilsu.
What are you in agreement with bilsu, realichili ? That the only game that matters is the UW game?
Quote from: raul on September 02, 2013, 12:37:46 AM
What are you in agreement with bilsu, realichili ? That the only game that matters is the UW game?
No one said that was the only game that matters. The post that I said "I do" to started out " Who cares about the UW game" I think every MU fan does.
Quote from: bilsu on August 27, 2013, 02:14:33 PM
A point guard scoring zero in a win is great. A point guard scoring 15 in a loss is not. the only thing that matters is whether the team wins or not. It is not that I have high hopes for Derrick's game taking a significant jump, it is that I thing you guys are expecting to much out of a freshmen.
Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Doug Williams won Super Bowls.
Dan Marino, Jim Kelly and Dan Fouts did not.
Ipso fatso, Dilfer, Johnson and Williams were better quarterbacks than Marino, Kelly and Fouts.
I think Derrick could make a jump this year. He'll likely have more opportunity and confidence from the staff. Somewhat sink or swim time. At the end of the day, winning is what matters. Sometimes it's not about being the best player, it's about being the best player for the team. If Gardner, Jamil, Mayo, McKay, Taylor, and others can score, Derrick won't have to be a high-scoring player to be effective. I'd rather have Derrick start, average 4.0 ppg, and help MU to a Final Four or even NC than have Duane start, average 14.0 ppg, and go out the first weekend.
Bilsu, you did notice that I said " I looked forward to MU beating UW again"? My point is very simple. One game doesn't make a player. The fact that MU won vs UW with Derrick who had zero points and zero assists doesn't mean that MU won because of him. Maybe just maybe MU won despite of him. Zero points and zero assists for a point g. in a program that prides itself on its guards is not a good sign for future success. Sure De. can improve and I hope he does but the fact is other players that are coming up are waiting for their chance.
Lot of focus on his assists and points but not a lot of mention that Synergy had him as our best man-to-man defender. That goes a long way with Buzz. I think De. Wilson averages at least 20+ minutes per game.
I agree that he has to show he scan score some just to keep the defenses honest. I am most worried about that free throw shooting. That will kill us in end of game scenarios. I hope he spent a lot of time on the charity stripe during the off-season.
I do not think it is imprortant for Derrick to score. However, he needs to improve his distributing and make free throws.
Quote from: bilsu on September 03, 2013, 08:24:32 AM
I do not think it is imprortant for Derrick to score. However, he needs to improve his distributing and make free throws.
He needs to score more to keep defenses honest.... He needs to set up other scorers more consistently... He needs to keep defending like he has previously.
If he does all of that, he will be fine. You don't need scoring from all five positions on the court. You simply need him to create.
Quote from: Terror Skink on September 03, 2013, 08:26:38 AM
He needs to score more to keep defenses honest.... He needs to set up other scorers more consistently... He needs to keep defending like he has previously.
If he does all of that, he will be fine. You don't need scoring from all five positions on the court. You simply need him to create.
For once I agree with you Skink. He needs to create, but it is not simple. If he can score 6 points pg and average 5 assists, and make 67%+ FT he will be a valuable contributor. I do believe that Du. Wilson will do significantly better though if given the minutes.
Quote from: willie warrior on September 03, 2013, 09:08:38 AM
For once I agree with you Skink. He needs to create, but it is not simple. If he can score 6 points pg and average 5 assists, and make 67%+ FT he will be a valuable contributor. I do believe that Du. Wilson will do significantly better though if given the minutes.
Diener average 6.8 (by memory) points as a freshmen and maybe Duane will score more, but I will not bet my life on it. My expectations are that if they each played 20 minutes Derrick would average 2 points and Duane would average 7, so in either case we are not going to get a lot of points out of the point guard position. The two combined will probably average less than 10 per game. Last year Derrick average 1.1 points in 13 minutes, so 2 points in 20 is reasonable. Cadougon averaged 8.5, which means they combined by 9.6 points a game.
Quote from: bilsu on September 03, 2013, 10:54:58 AM
Diener average 6.8 (by memory) points as a freshmen and maybe Duane will score more, but I will not bet my life on it. My expectations are that if they each played 20 minutes Derrick would average 2 points and Duane would average 7, so in either case we are not going to get a lot of points out of the point guard position. The two combined will probably average less than 10 per game.
That is a pretty safe bet. The last time our PG combinations averaged > 10 PPG it was 2010-11 when Buycks and Cadougan averaged 12.8.
And we don't really even know yet who the second PG is going to be.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 02, 2013, 09:50:31 PM
I'd rather have Derrick start, average 4.0 ppg, and help MU to a Final Four or even NC than have Duane start, average 14.0 ppg, and go out the first weekend.
Why is this the either-or choice? Can't Duane start, average 14 ppg and we go to the Final Four? Can't Derrick start, average 4 ppg and we not even make the NCAAs? Or something in between these two extremes?
Quote from: willie warrior on September 03, 2013, 09:08:38 AM
For once I agree with you Skink. He needs to create, but it is not simple. If he can score 6 points pg and average 5 assists, and make 67%+ FT he will be a valuable contributor. I do believe that Du. Wilson will do significantly better though if given the minutes.
That's Junior Cadougan with great defense. Sign me up for that!
Quote from: MU82 on September 03, 2013, 11:08:25 PM
Why is this the either-or choice? Can't Duane start, average 14 ppg and we go to the Final Four? Can't Derrick start, average 4 ppg and we not even make the NCAAs? Or something in between these two extremes?
It's not automatic. But anyone that thinks Derrick's experience and defense doesn't have value is being silly. Buzz will almost certainly give Derrick a ton of rope as his starting PG.
It's funny that last year people were calling for Derrick to replace Junior, now people are calling for Duane to replace Derrick. Come to think of it, weren't people calling for Junior to replace Buycks too a few years back?
I wonder how long it will be before MU fans are calling for Sandy or Nick to replace Duane.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 04, 2013, 01:27:37 PM
It's not automatic. But anyone that thinks Derrick's experience and defense doesn't have value is being silly. Buzz will almost certainly give Derrick a ton of rope as his starting PG.
It's funny that last year people were calling for Derrick to replace Junior, now people are calling for Duane to replace Derrick. Come to think of it, weren't people calling for Junior to replace Buycks too a few years back?
I wonder how long it will be before MU fans are calling for Sandy or Nick to replace Duane.
I think Mike Flory should start at point right now.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 04, 2013, 01:27:37 PM
It's not automatic. But anyone that thinks Derrick's experience and defense doesn't have value is being silly. Buzz will almost certainly give Derrick a ton of rope as his starting PG.
It's funny that last year people were calling for Derrick to replace Junior, now people are calling for Duane to replace Derrick. Come to think of it, weren't people calling for Junior to replace Buycks too a few years back?
I wonder how long it will be before MU fans are calling for Sandy or Nick to replace Duane.
Fans are idiots.
Prior to last season, several people were saying that Mayo should get Vander's minutes.
I'm sure there is some sort of deep psychological reason, but fans just seem to love "new" because they assume it's "better".
Derrick has flaws, but he can be a solid rotation player for this team. Juan falls in the same category.
Also, I can see a situation where Derrick and Duane are complementary players, similar to Otule and Gardner. That seems to have worked out well for MU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 03, 2013, 11:59:14 PM
That's Junior Cadougan with great defense. Sign me up for that!
You are signed up--the question is can he do those things?
Quote from: MU82 on September 02, 2013, 09:36:51 PM
Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Doug Williams won Super Bowls.
Dan Marino, Jim Kelly and Dan Fouts did not.
Ipso fatso, Dilfer, Johnson and Williams were better quarterbacks than Marino, Kelly and Fouts.
Don't put Doug Williams in the same light as those guys. Williams was a monster that year, not just throwing five yard passes. Word was, Washington's owner did not want to sign a black quarterback long term.
Fans only see the obvious, which tends to be measurables such as scoring, turnovers, rebounds, assists, block shots, etc. We often do not see the unmeasurable things that Buzz does. Knowing the plays, being in position, making the correct pass, directing teammates, etc. Buzz often said last year how important Lockett was and talked about his intelligence.
When he talked about Lockett's intelligence my thoughts always went back to Lockett fouling Wennington (Georgetown) on three point shot at end of game, which did not seem to intelligent to me. Now Lockett has an NBA contract and I did not see that coming. Last year Buzz got real excited about Blue taking his first charge. I bet no one on this board knew that Blue had not taken a charge prior to that. We can see that Duane is quicker than Derrick and also a better scorer and passer. We generally will not know that Duane went left when Buzz wanted him to go right or chose to cover the wrong player.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on September 04, 2013, 02:14:30 PM
Don't put Doug Williams in the same light as those guys. Williams was a monster that year, not just throwing five yard passes. Word was, Washington's owner did not want to sign a black quarterback long term.
This is not accurate.
He only started two games in the regular season the year they won the Super Bowl. He was the back up to Jay Schroeder and when Schroeder went out injured, he replaced him and caught fire.
Doug Williams was on the team the next two years, suffered injuries, didn't play very well, and was eventually replaced by Mark Rypien.
And the Skins at the time were owned by Jack Kent Cooke, who was far from a racist. Probably one of the most decent men involved in sports ownership.
Quote from: brewcity77 on September 04, 2013, 01:27:37 PM
It's not automatic. But anyone that thinks Derrick's experience and defense doesn't have value is being silly. Buzz will almost certainly give Derrick a ton of rope as his starting PG.
It's funny that last year people were calling for Derrick to replace Junior, now people are calling for Duane to replace Derrick. Come to think of it, weren't people calling for Junior to replace Buycks too a few years back?
I wonder how long it will be before MU fans are calling for Sandy or Nick to replace Duane.
For the record, I NEVER was calling for Derrick to replace Junior, and I don't believe I was alone among Marquette fans. Most of us know that the PG has to at least threaten to score a few times per game. The only guy who regularly talked about Derrick replacing Junior was Buzz, and he just did it to motivate Junior. If he actually thought Derrick would have given us a better chance to win, Buzz would have gone with Derrick.
But I do get your point ... fans like new and shiny. That's why the most popular player on many (usually losing) football teams is the backup quarterback. Fans love him ... until he actually has to play.
My problem with your post (and others like it) is that it presents a false choice, saying the
only option is winning with Derrick not scoring vs. losing with Duane (or some other PG) scoring.
Fact is, there are many other ways for us to win or lose next season, brew, and I'm sure you know that.
Oh, and I'm quite confident we will be winning a lot of games if Duane Wilson has beaten out Derrick Wilson and is scoring 14 ppg.
Quote from: MU82 on September 04, 2013, 04:53:59 PM
For the record, I NEVER was calling for Derrick to replace Junior, and I don't believe I was alone among Marquette fans. Most of us know that the PG has to at least threaten to score a few times per game. The only guy who regularly talked about Derrick replacing Junior was Buzz, and he just did it to motivate Junior. If he actually thought Derrick would have given us a better chance to win, Buzz would have gone with Derrick.
But I do get your point ... fans like new and shiny. That's why the most popular player on many (usually losing) football teams is the backup quarterback. Fans love him ... until he actually has to play.
My problem with your post (and others like it) is that it presents a false choice, saying the only option is winning with Derrick not scoring vs. losing with Duane (or some other PG) scoring.
Fact is, there are many other ways for us to win or lose next season, brew, and I'm sure you know that.
Oh, and I'm quite confident we will be winning a lot of games if Duane Wilson has beaten out Derrick Wilson and is scoring 14 ppg.
And we'll be winning a lot of games if Derrick starts and averages 5 points a game. This team is deep with multiple scoring options. We don't need a PG that dominates the ball *not saying that Duane is that type of PG* we need a PG that distributes, can at least be a threat to score and plays solid D. Personally, I think Derrick can be that guy. But, whoever starts, I believe they will split time pretty evenly and that we are fine at the PG position. Time will tell.
Quote from: willie warrior on September 04, 2013, 02:12:31 PM
You are signed up--the question is can he do those things?
I agree Willie - Derrick has done nothing yet to prove he can do any of that other than the great defense.