I remember at this time last year a bomb was supposed to drop on the program. Did the retro-active grading thing ever happen? Or was it the Monarch situation people were referring to?
Wasn't that supposed to be the Mayo academic situation? I'm still waiting for Nagasaki.
I recall much of it referred to grades of incoming recruits, specifically JUCOs. We didn't have a JUCO on the roster last year and the main reason McKay was able to qualify for the new standards was because he committed a year early, which allowed the MU coaching staff to work with Indian Hills to make sure he would be eligible. Even still, anyone who followed McKay's Twitter feed could see that he was only able to come to Marquette due to tests he had to pass in May. If you follow JUCO recruiting, it's easy to see we are rumored far less frequently with guys than we were in the past. Players like Crowder and Buycks would never be accepted into Marquette now.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 01, 2013, 11:55:25 AM
Players like Crowder and Buycks would never be accepted into Marquette now.
Oh?
Hmmm.
I have no real desire to go back and re-read the Hiroshima threads, but I don't recall the raising of JUCO admissions standards being among the major tenents of the Hiroshima hysteria. In fact, I don't remember it mentioned at all. At most, there was some hyperventilating over Buzz being barred from recruiting any JUCOs at all ... a claim pretty much proven wrong when Jameel McKay committed a few weeks later.
Perhaps we're hearing less about Buzz recruiting JUCOs because needs to dip into those ranks less frequently given the high school talent he's landing.
The fact is, pretty much none of the Hiroshima insanity has, or ever was going to, become reality.
The "Hiroshima Hysteria" was the raising of the GPA standards for continuing athletes, and not giving a grace period for current athletes. It was thought that this would trap a number of MU's players. In reality it didn't trap any of them.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 01, 2013, 12:18:32 PM
The "Hiroshima Hysteria" was the raising of the GPA standards for continuing athletes, and not giving a grace period for current athletes. It was thought that this would trap a number of MU's players. In reality it didn't trap any of them.
There was
way more to it that that.
There was Buzz leaving.
There was Buzz leaving at the end of the 2013 season (one poster claimed there was a "handshake deal" to that effect).
There was downsizing the program to SLU status.
There was a ban on JUCO recruiting.
There was the forced suspension/expulsion of Todd Mayo.
Go back and read the threads, if you must.
It grew into that, but "Hiroshima" was a word specifically used by muguru to describe what would happen to Scoop once they found out about the change in academic policy.
I can't find the original post, but it is referenced in this thread.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=32362.0
Pakuni
Actually the Hiroshima was started by a poster referring to academic standards being changed and the effect that would have on program. This poster was the "handshake" guy and it had nothing to do with Hiroshima post. I never bought into the academic standard theory.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 12:27:16 PM
There was way more to it that that.
There was Buzz leaving.
There was Buzz leaving at the end of the 2013 season (one poster claimed there was a "handshake deal" to that effect).
There was a lot about Buzz leaving. So far that's been unfounded, definitely the "handshake deal". However it is still out there that Buzz isn't as happy as he was when Cottingham and Wild were in charge. I'm not saying Buzz is on the verge of leaving or anything of the sort, but I think it would be a lot less of a surprise today than it would have been 2-3 years ago.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 12:27:16 PMThere was downsizing the program to SLU status.
Just personally, that always seemed like a stretch.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 12:27:16 PMThere was a ban on JUCO recruiting.
You're glossing over this a bit. It was raising recruiting standards to make it very difficult to bring in JUCOs as well as limiting the high school kids we could go after. And if you've followed McKay's recruitment and Twitter feed, you'd realize at least from a JUCO perspective this is factual. The reason McKay is going to Marquette is because we got a commitment so early. Marquette was able to direct him in terms of which classes he had to take and pass. As I said earlier, guys like Crowder and Buycks that arrived not on track to graduate wouldn't be accepted at Marquette today. JUCO basketball transfers will only be brought in if their academics put them on track to earn a degree in four years. With McKay that is the case.
I don't know if this has affected our recruiting of high school kids. It seems Buzz has been able to be just as aggressive with HS players, but the focus has definitely turned more toward bringing in high school and graduate student transfers than JUCOs. I don't believe for a second that Buzz would turn away from the JUCO ranks simply because he is getting more high school kids. Buzz seems to want guys that are ready to contribute from day one, and JUCOs are more often able to do just that.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 12:27:16 PMThere was the forced suspension/expulsion of Todd Mayo.
The comments from both camps last year sure made it sound like there was a decent chance Mayo wouldn't be back. I can't speculate as to all the whys or wherefores, but the combination of behavior, grades, and commitment to the program all seem to have been questioned. Not sure if it was just Buzz doing the questioning or if it was partially administrative as well.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 12:27:16 PMGo back and read the threads, if you must.
God no...this is more than enough reliving of that than I need ;D
I know a few people who work with the program and others who are sizable boosters who were convinced 2013 was Buzz's last year. Some were surprised he came back after 2012. From everything I gathered there was a pretty good size adjustment period after Fr. Wild left. The AD gets all the blame and ridicule but it starts at the top.
IMO, all parties realized they're better off with each other than without.
I also believe you'll continue to hear murmurs because that's how Buzz likes it, us against them, backs to the wall, nobody believes in us.
Look it wasn't always pretty with Al but it ended up looking good. Same deal here.
Pakuni is definitely right about the overall raising of academic standards, and one of the big things was that the changes would be retroactive to force academic requirements on players based on past academics that they would not be able to fix (basically no grandfathering in).
That didn't happen, but I do believe Marquette has raised their academic standards for athletes so they are higher than the NCAA requires. Basically, what was predicted to happen did come to pass, but not in such a way that it screwed over existent MU players.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 01, 2013, 01:03:10 PM
Pakuni is definitely right about the overall raising of academic standards, and one of the big things was that the changes would be retroactive to force academic requirements on players based on past academics that they would not be able to fix (basically no grandfathering in).
That didn't happen, but I do believe Marquette has raised their academic standards for athletes so they are higher than the NCAA requires. Basically, what was predicted to happen did come to pass, but not in such a way that it screwed over existent MU players.
As I recall, the NCAA requires a 1.8 GPA after freshman year, 1.9 after sophomore year and 2.0 after junior.
MU changed theirs to make it 2.0 across the board.
And brew is right, it was changed but did not impact anyone. Todd's problems last year arose after he started the fall semester.
Lens
While my "handshake" agreement obviously proved to be incorrect, I do agree on some of the big boosters surprised Buzz is back. At this point I am just very happy that he is back and hopefully on to bigger things for the program.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 01, 2013, 11:55:25 AM
I recall much of it referred to grades of incoming recruits, specifically JUCOs. We didn't have a JUCO on the roster last year and the main reason McKay was able to qualify for the new standards was because he committed a year early, which allowed the MU coaching staff to work with Indian Hills to make sure he would be eligible. Even still, anyone who followed McKay's Twitter feed could see that he was only able to come to Marquette due to tests he had to pass in May. If you follow JUCO recruiting, it's easy to see we are rumored far less frequently with guys than we were in the past. Players like Crowder and Buycks would never be accepted into Marquette now.
I do not mean to nit pick, but if you do not pass your finals whether you are in junior college or high school you probably do not graduate. So whether there was a rule change or not McKay ( along with Wilson, Burton, Dawson and JJJ) needed to pass their tests in May.
Quote from: Goose on August 01, 2013, 01:09:19 PM
Lens
While my "handshake" agreement obviously proved to be incorrect, I do agree on some of the big boosters surprised Buzz is back. At this point I am just very happy that he is back and hopefully on to bigger things for the program.
It is my understanding that Fr. Pilarz is not the sports fan that some have made him out to be and that he considers Buzz Williams to be a bit of a "handful" for the university. I don't know what that will ultimately mean, but Larry Williams has to ultimately answer to the president.
My own opinion is that, should Buzz be somehow forced out, Pilarz will have more than a "handful" of angry alums.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 01, 2013, 04:04:48 PM
It is my understanding that Fr. Pilarz is not the sports fan that some have made him out to be and that he considers Buzz Williams to be a bit of a "handful" for the university. I don't know what that will ultimately mean, but Larry Williams has to ultimately answer to the president.
My own opinion is that, should Buzz be somehow forced out, Pilarz will have more than a "handful" of angry alums.
No actual knowledge, but I suspect (hope) with the new conference that both the President and the AD realize how much we need Buzz.
Quote from: bilsu on August 01, 2013, 04:17:45 PM
No actual knowledge, but I suspect (hope) with the new conference that both the President and the AD realize how much we need Buzz.
If they don't, then the University has bigger problems. The University isn't the basketball team, of course, but it is an important part of it. Buzz isn't the basketball program, but he is a big part of it. Not realizing this is like the San Diego Zoo CEO getting rid of the panda's because they require extra TLC.
Buzz is on a roll, and I hope that the powers that be at MU now realize what he means to the University and I hope that Buzz understands what he and his teams mean to the University. Buzz's persona and underdog ways, really fit in with the new conference. I think he can use it to his advantage. I hope Fox Sports does some behind the scene's stuff with the teams; preseason camp stuff, etc.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 01, 2013, 04:04:48 PM
It is my understanding that Fr. Pilarz is not the sports fan that some have made him out to be and that he considers Buzz Williams to be a bit of a "handful" for the university. I don't know what that will ultimately mean, but Larry Williams has to ultimately answer to the president.
Pilarz is most comfortable behind the scenes, and I'm not sure he's ultimately a long-term fit. If his grand academic vision is gonna be realized, MU needs to raise some scratch. A socially uncomfortable president doesn't help.
Quote from: bilsu on August 01, 2013, 03:36:19 PM
I do not mean to nit pick, but if you do not pass your finals whether you are in junior college or high school you probably do not graduate.
All very true, but in the past JUCO players merely had to qualify. Now they have to be on track to graduate. The work McKay had to do was far more than Buzz's previous JUCO recruits. Had he picked his own classes and not committed until this summer, McKay wouldn't have been able to come to Marquette.
In the next few seasons, I expect graduate student transfers to replace the roles JUCOs played under Buzz of providing instant impact and experience. Players like McKay will become less common and players like Lockett more common.
PRN
Agreed Fr. P probably considers Buzz a handful. Time will tell.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 01, 2013, 04:33:53 PM
All very true, but in the past JUCO players merely had to qualify. Now they have to be on track to graduate. The work McKay had to do was far more than Buzz's previous JUCO recruits. Had he picked his own classes and not committed until this summer, McKay wouldn't have been able to come to Marquette.
That's probably true, but I'd suggest that has far more to do with APR, and the consequences of falling behind on that measure, than any effort by the administration to rein in Buzz or limit his recruiting.
We had Hiroshima this year in the Cohen thread.
Goose, you gotta think the supposed agreement with Buzz and the administration was nothing more than a rumor. A rumor that was talked about so much, it was perceived as fact.
The best part of that topic was the Enola Gay photo ;D
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 04:47:41 PM
That's probably true, but I'd suggest that has far more to do with APR, and the consequences of falling behind on that measure, than any effort by the administration to rein in Buzz or limit his recruiting.
The fact that some of the guys have left school to train for the draft hasn't sat well either.
Quote from: MUfan12 on August 01, 2013, 09:53:34 PM
The fact that some of the guys have left school to train for the draft hasn't sat well either.
Or that they all earned millions when they did it.
WHO CARES!
Hiroshima happened. It was today, when none of us could get on Scoop at work. The horror!
There is no doubt that Fr. P has a bit of a different focus from Fr. Wild but it really has nothing to do with intercollegiate athletics from what I know. I'd say the shift is toward a higher commitment on academics and a bit away from administration. Remember that he's a teacher by trade so the emphasis is moving from that 3rd assistant in the Office of Diversity to that Associate Professor of Chemistry. And yes academic standards were raised. I've heard many times from prominent folks that all students should at least achieve 2.0 and be appropriately focused on their education. I'm sure there was universal disappointment when Vander decided not only to leave school but to also drop out (for understandable reasons) as soon as he declared for the draft in April.
I guess the point I'd like to emphasize is that I truly believe Buzz, Larry and Fr. P all see it roughly the same way. The possible nuance I imagine is that Buzz seems to feel strongly about giving the 'underprivileged' or 'ill prepared' kid a shot.
Quote from: jsglow on August 03, 2013, 08:53:43 AM
There is no doubt that Fr. P has a bit of a different focus from Fr. Wild but it really has nothing to do with intercollegiate athletics from what I know. I'd say the shift is toward a higher commitment on academics and a bit away from administration. Remember that he's a teacher by trade so the emphasis is moving from that 3rd assistant in the Office of Diversity to that Associate Professor of Chemistry. And yes academic standards were raised. I've heard many times from prominent folks that all students should at least achieve 2.0 and be appropriately focused on their education. I'm sure there was universal disappointment when Vander decided not only to leave school but to also drop out (for understandable reasons) as soon as he declared for the draft in April.
I guess the point I'd like to emphasize is that I truly believe Buzz, Larry and Fr. P all see it roughly the same way. The possible nuance I imagine is that Buzz seems to feel strongly about giving the 'underprivileged' or 'ill prepared' kid a shot.
Which is exactly what the Jesuits committed to doing, provide education to people who would not otherwise get the opportunity. If Father P isn't OK with that, maybe this Jesuit institution should look to someone who understands the meaning of being a Jesuit. Then again, when my brother had his PSAT results sent to 5 schools and I saw the statistics that they sent back on the results, Marquette gave 0% of it's students money based on needs whereas the other schools he sent them to (Loyola, Xavier, and 2 other private, "like-minded" schools) gave 60% or more of it's students money based on need. So maybe that's just how the Jesuit school Marquette is doing it.
Quote from: wadesworld on August 03, 2013, 09:15:41 AM
Which is exactly what the Jesuits committed to doing, provide education to people who would not otherwise get the opportunity. If Father P isn't OK with that, maybe this Jesuit institution should look to someone who understands the meaning of being a Jesuit. Then again, when my brother had his PSAT results sent to 5 schools and I saw the statistics that they sent back on the results, Marquette gave 0% of it's students money based on needs whereas the other schools he sent them to (Loyola, Xavier, and 2 other private, "like-minded" schools) gave 60% or more of it's students money based on need. So maybe that's just how the Jesuit school Marquette is doing it.
I think you're reaching just a bit wade. Never suggested that Fr. P doesn't fully support education for all regardless of background. Rather I'd speculate that he'd expect all who are provided the opportunity to take advantage. Big difference. I do think he firmly believes in the 'graduation track' and that might be what you're commenting on. As to your comment about need vs. merit scholarship I'm not sure how that fits into the discussion. MU's 'first in the family to college' stat is approximately 20%.
Quote from: MUfan12 on August 01, 2013, 09:53:34 PM
The fact that some of the guys have left school to train for the draft hasn't sat well either.
Which is one of the reasons you aren't going to see many two year JUCOs.
Here's the deal. Many basketball players take physical education programs at Jucos. MU doesn't have a Phy Ed program, and therefore their credits don't transfer. Therefore when they get here, they have more than two years worth of work to do. They don't graduate..and now you have an APR hit.
Three year Jucos like DJO (graduated) and JFB (who marched but last I heard hadn't graduated) are different. As is McKay because he committed so early that he was able to figure out his transfer credits early enough.
I am sure Buzz is still able to recruit the two year Jucos, but either they have to be on them early or taken the right course work early enough. (But that's tough because two year Jucos are non-qualifiers to begin with.)
Why the change to our JUCO strategy? I mean why put more stringent requirements on them? Does Father P and company feel like accepting a JUCO and not having him graduate is a black mark on the program? Or the university more generally? Does it really diminish the academics of the university if we accept a few JUCOs here and there, or have a few guys leave early for the draft and never graduate?
What motivated the change?
Quote from: ElDonBDon on August 03, 2013, 11:06:16 AM
Why the change to our JUCO strategy? I mean why put more stringent requirements on them? Does Father P and company feel like accepting a JUCO and not having him graduate is a black mark on the program? Or the university more generally? Does it really diminish the academics of the university if we accept a few JUCOs here and there, or have a few guys leave early for the draft and never graduate?
What motivated the change?
The not accepting Phy Ed credits is a university wide thing. (You can actually find it on the web site.) I think it has an impact on the basketball players like I mentioned above, and impacts the APR for the university as well.
Quote from: Pakuni on August 01, 2013, 12:27:16 PM
There was way more to it that that.
There was Buzz leaving.
There was Buzz leaving at the end of the 2013 season (one poster claimed there was a "handshake deal" to that effect).
There was downsizing the program to SLU status.
There was a ban on JUCO recruiting.
There was the forced suspension/expulsion of Todd Mayo.
Go back and read the threads, if you must.
Pretty much summed it up. As i recall about half of the posters believed that 2013 was Buzz' last year
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on August 03, 2013, 03:02:16 PM
Pretty much summed it up. As i recall about half of the posters believed that 2013 was Buzz' last year
And it was all because a couple guys had "inside" information.
Quote from: brandx on August 03, 2013, 05:17:49 PM
And it was all because a couple guys had "inside" information.
Someone should have asked what exactly the information had been inside.