It's no secret Buzz has been a magician with JUCOs, however, his high school recruiting has yet to produce one NBA player. I argue the 2013 class will be the most important of Buzz Williams' career.
http://bit.ly/15mAtC5
Man in 5 years the guy has had what??? 1 class of 4 year HS recruits??? lol. Junior was his 1st 4 year player from HS thru college correct?
I'm sure Buzz will toss and turn tonight...
Seriously. What an awful coach not producing a single NBA player of his HS recruits in 5 years....
If I didn't know better, I'd think we were back to Hiroshima again!
Look, Buzz has produced. Period. Jimmy Butler and Wesley Matthew learned to lead under his tutulage. They are pros in no small measure because of Buzz. Vander made a horrible mistake and the verdict is out on Todd Mayo and Davante.
To criticize Buzz for Steve Taylor, who is a sophomore and shows enormous promise, or Juan Anderson, is nuts. There's talent up and down the roster and they'll make the NBA if they're good enough. Period.
I'm pretty sure that Clam was using teal without using teal.
I am guessing that Marquette's J- School is like Flight Training. Make your mistakes now in simulators before you strap a real jet on your a$$ and hurt somebody.
I don't believe that the 2013 class is/was/will be the most important in Buzz's career. His first class was by far more important.
- The success of the Jucos versus high school recruits is meaningless. A recruit is not going to say "Sorry Buzz, I am not going to go with you because your track record of getting high school players into the NBA is not good." The only people that will care about this argument is administrators, alumni, and a sports writer looking for something to fill content. Recruits go where they can win and get into the NBA. Buzz and Marquette have put quite a few players into the NBA and all Juco players were High Schoolers at some point. Just because you had one year of Juco doesn't mean you are going to develop any differently.
- Without the success of Buzz's first class, there wouldn't be any of these classes. If Buzz faltered out of the gate, there is a good chance we would already have another coach. Buzz created a winning atmosphere and a brand. Recruits have bought into that brand and are now coming in
- Players Transfer - They have and they will. It isn't going to change. Buzz has filled the void with better or equal players. I will not be surprised if one member of the class transfers. If they don't meet expectations then they will transfer out and someone else will come in.
- Matthews, James, McNeal - The 2013 class reminds me a lot of this class. It happens to be the same class in Crean's tenure as Buzz's. Three years later Crean was gone and left his prize class for someone else to close out. I call this out because MU continued on. Crean also continued on and arguably had successful classes at IU. His 2005 class did not define him.
- 2013 Recruits meet expectations - If these recruits live up to expectation or even exceed, it could be Buzz's Best class but best and most important are two different measures.
I disagree with this assessment. I think that this class could be the difference between staying as a permanent fringe top 25-15 range team or developing into a true elite school again but Buzz's first class was much more important.
Yeah I think the teal was unnecessary with that statement hahaha
For the record I didn't read the article. Just by looking at the title I knew it would be a waste of time...A college basketball player is a college basketball player a coach who recruits JUCO's and produces pro players is just as good as guy that has 4 years with someone if not more impressive due to the lesser amount of time he has with them....
Quote from: Clam Crowder on July 18, 2013, 09:23:08 AM
Yeah I think the teal was unnecessary with that statement hahaha
For the record I didn't read the article. Just by looking at the title I knew it would be a waste of time...A college basketball player is a college basketball player a coach who recruits JUCO's and produces pro players is just as good as guy that has 4 years with someone if not more impressive due to the lesser amount of time he has with them....
The only problem is APR. None of the non-qualifying JUCOs under Buzz (2 year players) has graduated.
Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 09:33:23 AM
The only problem is APR. None of the non-qualifying JUCOs under Buzz (2 year players) has graduated.
Jimmy and DJO were here for 3. Did they graduate?
Quote from: Aughnanure on July 18, 2013, 10:11:01 AM
Jimmy and DJO were here for 3. Did they graduate?
I know DJO did don't know about Jimmy.
If you aren't counting Wes and Lazar as players recruited out of high school to Marquette that Buzz has helped get into the NBA, then you can't say that Buzz has had 5 years worth of chances to put high school recruited MU players into the NBA. He has had 2 years at best, really just 1 if you're being fair. The jury is still out on the only high school recruited player from his first class (Otule). Everyone else left because of TC or for health reasons (McMorrow).
So yes, criticize away. Buzz is 0-1 when it comes to getting his high school recruits into the NBA.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 18, 2013, 10:15:05 AM
I know DJO did don't know about Jimmy.
Jimmy went through the ceremony but I don't think he graduated. I had heard he was on campus and perhaps taking classes though.
McKay has a bunch of credits and might be able to get it done in two years.
Quote from: TJ on July 18, 2013, 10:55:30 AM
If you aren't counting Wes and Lazar as players recruited out of high school to Marquette that Buzz has helped get into the NBA, then you can't say that Buzz has had 5 years worth of chances to put high school recruited MU players into the NBA. He has had 2 years at best, really just 1 if you're being fair. The jury is still out on the only high school recruited player from his first class (Otule). Everyone else left because of TC or for health reasons (McMorrow).
So yes, criticize away. Buzz is 0-1 when it comes to getting his high school recruits into the NBA.
Amen. I agree entirely.
I also think Buzz had to take chances at the start to bring in talent. Nobody knew who he was. Now I would think most recruits would have an idea who Buzz is, if he called them on the phone.
Quote from: bilsu on July 18, 2013, 03:33:15 PM
I also think Buzz had to take chances at the start to bring in talent. Nobody knew who he was. Now I would think most recruits would have an idea who Buzz is, if he called them on the phone.
Just curious, do you think AAU/HS coaches & players know who Isaac Chew is?
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 18, 2013, 09:05:45 PM
Just curious, do you think AAU/HS coaches & players know who Isaac Chew is?
Sure. Not all of them...not even a majority...but a lot of them do.
Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 09:09:51 PM
Sure. Not all of them...not even a majority...but a lot of them do.
Chew is also an assistant while Buzz is the head coach. I'm sure Buzz was known in basketball circles when he took over MU, but maybe not necessarily by a ton of recruits. I'm not sure what SJS is getting at with his question.
Quote from: bilsu on July 18, 2013, 03:33:15 PM
I also think Buzz had to take chances at the start to bring in talent. Nobody knew who he was. Now I would think most recruits would have an idea who Buzz is, if he called them on the phone.
I can see a little clarification is needed. By no one, I meant high school recruits accross the country and their parents generally had no idea who Buzz was. Remember with all of MU's success a lot of people still think Marquette is located in Michigan.
Quote from: jmayer1 on July 19, 2013, 11:02:05 AM
Chew is also an assistant while Buzz is the head coach. I'm sure Buzz was known in basketball circles when he took over MU, but maybe not necessarily by a ton of recruits. I'm not sure what SJS is getting at with his question.
The the comment that "Buzz had to take chances" when he became coach "becuase he was an unknown" doesn't fit with reality, and we only need to look at Issac Chew's reputation today.
As MU's recruiter one year into the job (with prior experience at Missouri), Isaac Chew is very well known among HS & AAU coaches and recruits. He holds the same role with similar experience that Buzz held in 2007-08.
You can't say Chew is well known and at the same time allege that Buzz was unknown. There's a reason why so many programs hire top D1 assistants as head coaches--its specifically becuase they ARE well known in the circles that count.
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 19, 2013, 05:53:30 PM
The the comment that "Buzz had to take chances" when he became coach "becuase he was an unknown" doesn't fit with reality, and we only need to look at Issac Chew's reputation today.
As MU's recruiter one year into the job (with prior experience at Missouri), Isaac Chew is very well known among HS & AAU coaches and recruits. He holds the same role with similar experience that Buzz held in 2007-08.
You can't say Chew is well known and at the same time allege that Buzz was unknown. There's a reason why so many programs hire top D1 assistants as head coaches--its specifically becuase they ARE well known in the circles that count.
Chew was well known in the midwest...particularly Chicago. Where MU generally recruits from.
Buzz was not known in the midwest much at all.
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 19, 2013, 05:53:30 PM
The the comment that "Buzz had to take chances" when he became coach "becuase he was an unknown" doesn't fit with reality, and we only need to look at Issac Chew's reputation today.
As MU's recruiter one year into the job (with prior experience at Missouri), Isaac Chew is very well known among HS & AAU coaches and recruits. He holds the same role with similar experience that Buzz held in 2007-08.
You can't say Chew is well known and at the same time allege that Buzz was unknown. There's a reason why so many programs hire top D1 assistants as head coaches--its specifically becuase they ARE well known in the circles that count.
They hire assistants for their Rolodex but that doesn't get you a player. It gets you a phone call. Besides Chew wasn't here when Buzz started at MU so Chew's impact is minimal to date. Would Chew have taken the job 5 yrs ago. Probably not.
Let's take tyshawn Taylor. Buzz was known to him. Buzz recruited him but Buzz was an unknown head coach and when you have NBA prospects you don't roll the dice on a new head coach.
Quote from: BallBoy on July 19, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Let's take tyshawn Taylor. Buzz was known to him. Buzz recruited him but Buzz was an unknown head coach and when you have NBA prospects you don't roll the dice on a new head coach.
I think this was less Buzz Williams and more KU.
Quote from: Terror Skink on July 19, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
Chew was well known in the midwest...particularly Chicago. Where MU generally recruits from.
Buzz was not known in the midwest much at all.
Think about what you're alleging here: Buzz spent a year as an assistant for Marquette--which generally recruits from the Midwest and particularlly Chicago--and after working for MU for a full season, he ended the year year just as unknown as he was when he started?
Maybe you can buy that--I don't.
But even if you believe that, what roots did Kevin O'Neill have in Wisconsin when he came in and landed Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logtermann?
Did Kevin O'Neill have to "take chances" because he was "unknown" and didn't have deep roots in Chicago? Of course not.
But let me accept your premise that Buzz managed to not make any connections in the midwest during his one year as MU's assistant . . . wasn't he well known
somewhere? Anywhere? BTW, if you check Chew's recruiting by looking at Murray State's 2012 roster (he was there to help recruit all four classes) and Missouri (he helped recruit the freshman on the 2012-13 team), you'll notice a decided lack of Chicago-area and Midwest recruits.
Obviously Chew was not "unknown" beyond Chicago. Just as I suspect the comment that Buzz was "unknown" his first year at Marquette is equally incorrect.
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 21, 2013, 05:12:59 PM
Think about what you're alleging here: Buzz spent a year as an assistant for Marquette--which generally recruits from the Midwest and particularlly Chicago--and after working for MU for a full season, he ended the year year just as unknown as he was when he started?
Maybe you can buy that--I don't.
But even if you believe that, what roots did Kevin O'Neill have in Wisconsin when he came in and landed Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logtermann?
Did Kevin O'Neill have to "take chances" because he was "unknown" and didn't have deep roots in Chicago? Of course not.
But let me accept your premise that Buzz managed to not make any connections in the midwest during his one year as MU's assistant . . . wasn't he well known somewhere? Anywhere?
BTW, if you check Chew's recruiting by looking at Murray State's 2012 roster (he was there to help recruit all four classes) and Missouri (he helped recruit the freshman on the 2012-13 team), you'll notice a decided lack of Chicago-area and Midwest recruits.
Obviously Chew was not "unknown" beyond Chicago. Just as I suspect the comment that Buzz was "unknown" his first year at Marquette is equally incorrect.
There is no doubt that Buzz was less known, proven, etc. 5 years ago then today...and just like the original post you that you feel the need to argue with stated...he probably had to take chances he wouldn't have to now, both in terms of recruiting and keeping players around...
That said, I'm sure you're very disappointed with Buzz' recruiting as he still isn't getting players that the blue bloods want, and I know you feel those are the only players suitable for MU...or was that just transfers?
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 21, 2013, 05:12:59 PM
Think about what you're alleging here: Buzz spent a year as an assistant for Marquette--which generally recruits from the Midwest and particularlly Chicago--and after working for MU for a full season, he ended the year year just as unknown as he was when he started?
Maybe you can buy that--I don't.
But even if you believe that, what roots did Kevin O'Neill have in Wisconsin when he came in and landed Jim McIlvaine, Damon Key and Robb Logtermann?
Did Kevin O'Neill have to "take chances" because he was "unknown" and didn't have deep roots in Chicago? Of course not.
But let me accept your premise that Buzz managed to not make any connections in the midwest during his one year as MU's assistant . . . wasn't he well known somewhere? Anywhere?
BTW, if you check Chew's recruiting by looking at Murray State's 2012 roster (he was there to help recruit all four classes) and Missouri (he helped recruit the freshman on the 2012-13 team), you'll notice a decided lack of Chicago-area and Midwest recruits.
Obviously Chew was not "unknown" beyond Chicago. Just as I suspect the comment that Buzz was "unknown" his first year at Marquette is equally incorrect.
I never said he was "unknown" in the midwest. Chew is more well known in the midwest now than Buzz was when he was named HC in my opinion.
Otule, Fulce, Cadougan, Butler, Cadougan....Buzz went where he was known, i.e. Texas and Juco's. It has taken time to establish his bona fides in Chicago. He is doing better now. To argue that Buzz was as well known in Chicago circles when he arrived at MU as Chew.....well, only one guy can do that with a straight face. Keep fighting the good fight, 84.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 21, 2013, 05:24:06 PM
There is no doubt that Buzz was less known, proven, etc. 5 years ago then today...and just like the original post you that you feel the need to argue with stated...he probably had to take chances he wouldn't have to now, both in terms of recruiting and keeping players around...
I don't think he had to "take chances" because he was "unknown". Mainly because he wasn't "unknown.'
If he were "unknown" after several years of being a top assistant at Texas A&M and one at MU, he wouldn't have gotten the job at MU in the first place. Its the job of an assistant to work the HS and AAU circuit. And that made him quite well known.
Thus, the comment that he was "unknown" and had to take chances" was a dumb comment probably borne out of ignorance of how top-level assistants work.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 21, 2013, 05:24:06 PM
That said, I'm sure you're very disappointed with Buzz' recruiting as he still isn't getting players that the blue bloods want, and I know you feel those are the only players suitable for MU...or was that just transfers?
Its not whether I'm disappointed . . . its whether Buzz is disappointed.
He can obviously stay at MU probably as long as he wants. In that respect, he's like Sean Miller was at Xavier--with a similar track record of success.
Miller could have stayed at Xavier, and he was landing players that could have kept them winning A10 titles, regularly reaching the 2nd weekend in the NCAA tournament, and perennially ranked in the top 25.
But Miller wasn't able to crack into the pool of elite recruits. He's getting them at Arizona, and he'll have a much better shot at a NCAA title then he would have had he stayed at Xavier.
Buzz knows he can win in the new Big East. He knows he's got the players who can get him to a Sweet 16 (and maybe get to the Elite Eight once in a while). I think he's realistic about his chances to win a title with the players he's recruiting now, which is why he's trying so hard to land players like Looney and Stone.
So the real question is what happens if he doesn't start landing those players over the next few years?
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 21, 2013, 07:44:04 PM
I don't think he had to "take chances" because he was "unknown". Mainly because he wasn't "unknown.'
If he were "unknown" after several years of being a top assistant at Texas A&M and one at MU, he wouldn't have gotten the job at MU in the first place. Its the job of an assistant to work the HS and AAU circuit. And that made him quite well known.
Thus, the comment that he was "unknown" and had to take chances" was a dumb comment probably borne out of ignorance of how top-level assistants work.
Its not whether I'm disappointed . . . its whether Buzz is disappointed.
He can obviously stay at MU probably as long as he wants. In that respect, he's like Sean Miller was at Xavier--with a similar track record of success.
Miller could have stayed at Xavier, and he was landing players that could have kept them winning A10 titles, regularly reaching the 2nd weekend in the NCAA tournament, and perennially ranked in the top 25.
But Miller wasn't able to crack into the pool of elite recruits. He's getting them at Arizona, and he'll have a much better shot at a NCAA title then he would have had he stayed at Xavier.
Buzz knows he can win in the new Big East. He knows he's got the players who can get him to a Sweet 16 (and maybe get to the Elite Eight once in a while). I think he's realistic about his chances to win a title with the players he's recruiting now, which is why he's trying so hard to land players like Looney and Stone.
-"and
maybe get to the Elite Eight once in a while"??? - gee, it would be great to maybe make the elite 8
-he's not trying hard with looney anymore (and dang near every coach in the nation is trying hard with those two)
-to think buzz doesn't recruit differently today then he did 5 years ago is ridiculous...of course he can target different players then he did when he first came to MU...if you don't think putting all those players into the nba, a few sweet 16's and an elite 8, a BEAST championship, etc. change the way a coach can recruit, or how well he's known you're nuts. 5 years ago the top recruits in the nation would have known MU because of Wade...now they know Buzz. he had to prove he could win and develop players before players, coaches, and families would trust him. many who know a lot more about recruiting than i do say he still needs to put a big or two in the nba before he'll be able to recruit those players...or as you say, he could bolt for an easier school to recruit to.
-UCLA>MU>Xavier>Butler...miller's success at UofA is yet to be seen, and TC is yet to reach a final four at IU
Quote from: tower912 on July 21, 2013, 07:43:18 PM
Otule, Fulce, Cadougan, Butler, Cadougan....Buzz went where he was known, i.e. Texas and Juco's.
Ergo, he wasn't "unknown" and therefore didn't have to "take chances."
Period. End of story. Thanks for supplying the proof.
Quote from: tower912 on July 21, 2013, 07:43:18 PM
It has taken time to establish his bona fides in Chicago. He is doing better now.
And it will probably take Chew quite some time to establish his bona fides in Texas and among JUCOs. The point was that Chew didn't arrive at MU as an "unknown". And neither did Buzz--as you readily admit above.
Quote from: tower912 on July 21, 2013, 07:43:18 PM
To argue that Buzz was as well known in Chicago circles when he arrived at MU as Chew.....well, only one guy can do that with a straight face. Keep fighting the good fight, 84.
Sorry, I idn't that Buzz was as well known in Chicago as Chew. I said he was as well known in HS/AAU circles. But, hey, nice try.
(http://www.skepticalraptor.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Strawman-light.jpg)
Quote from: The Equalizer on July 21, 2013, 08:15:35 PM
Ergo, he wasn't "unknown" and therefore didn't have to "take chances."
Period. End of story. Thanks for supplying the proof.
yeah...that's why he brought a bunch of TX players to MU with him, and signed one kid that had never been on campus. those that knew him, loved him, but not many knew him.
Quote from: avid1010 on July 21, 2013, 08:24:20 PM
yeah...that's why he brought a bunch of TX players to MU with him, and signed one kid that had never been on campus. those that knew him, loved him, but not many knew him.
Ironically, that speaks to how well known Buzz was. He convinced a kid with an offer to Iowa State and starting to get interest from Kentucky to instead commit to a school he had never visited.
And after all this, all I can say is that its obvious you don't understand the role of a D1 assistant. Buzz Williams worked as a D1 assistant or head coach for 13 years the day he was hired at MU (4 years at UT-Arlington, 1 year at Northwestern State, 4 years at Colorado State, 2 years at Texas A&M, 1 at UNO and 1 at Marquette).
I don't know how someone can work college basketball for 13 years and not develop a ton of relationships--especially someone like Buzz who's KNOWN for building relationships.
And just for comparision, at the time he was hired, Kevin O'Neill had only six years of D1 assistant experience--2 at Delaware, 1 at Tulsa and 3 at Arizona.