Two of the first 4 picks, wow.
Ran up against a zone.
The problem is, of course, that the sanguine will see tonight's draft as some form of perverse validation of the quality of mentorship resident in Bloomington. Hopefully, continued underperformance between the white lines will enable the palpable to become more evident to the deceived.
Quote from: keefe on June 27, 2013, 07:17:05 PM
The problem is, of course, that the sanguine will see tonight's draft as some form of perverse validation of the quality of mentorship resident in Bloomington. Hopefully, continued underperformance between the white lines will enable the palpable to become more evident to the deceived.
One could argue it's the exact opposite. Crean had two of the four best players in college basketball, as judged by NBA scouts, and yet couldn't get to the Final Four. It's like when Lou Piniella had Griffey, A-Rod, Big Unit, Edgar and Buhner, won 116 regular-season games and STILL couldn't win the pennant.
On ESPN, Battier tried really hard to get Oladipo to give Crean mucho credit, but Oladipo, after a quick word of praise, immediately turned the subject to his AAU and high school coaches. Interesting.
How did the Miami Heat need a fluke rebound and 3 point shot with 5 seconds left just to win game 6 and force a game 7 when they have the best player in the world? Plus Ray Allen. Plus Dwyane Wade? Plus Chris Bosh...they had 3 of the top 5 players drafted in the 2003 draft on the same team. How did they need 7 games and that miracle to win? Let alone need 7 games the series before to beat Indiana?
LOL
Pretty simple gents, one game crapshoot anything can happen. Last I checked it took 12 players, and 5 on a court at one time, not two players and youngsters for most of the depth. IU ran against a zone, and lost...we ran into the same zone after playing it year after year after year and scored 39 points despite all the practice we've had against it. College basketball, that's what makes it great.
Crazy what can happen in one game.
5 years ago, IU had one player on the team that had played a total of 19 minutes. 5 years later, two kids drafted in the top 5, a bunch of guys on Academic All Big Ten, players graduating, Big Ten title....I'd say he's more than turned things around. Haters keep on hating. I heard Crean was fired last year.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:07:13 AM
How did the Miami Heat need a fluke rebound and 3 point shot with 5 seconds left just to win game 6 and force a game 7 when they have the best player in the world? Plus Ray Allen. Plus Dwyane Wade? Plus Chris Bosh...they had 3 of the top 5 players drafted in the 2003 draft on the same team. How did they need 7 games and that miracle to win? Let alone need 7 games the series before to beat Indiana?
LOL
Pretty simple gents, one game crapshoot anything can happen. Last I checked it took 12 players, and 5 on a court at one time, not two players and youngsters for most of the depth. IU ran against a zone, and lost...we ran into the same zone after playing it year after year after year and scored 39 points despite all the practice we've had against it. College basketball, that's what makes it great.
Crazy what can happen in one game.
5 years ago, IU had one player on the team that had played a total of 19 minutes. 5 years later, two kids drafted in the top 5, a bunch of guys on Academic All Big Ten, players graduating, Big Ten title....I'd say he's more than turned things around. Haters keep on hating. I heard Crean was fired last year.
Easy, everyone knows the NBA is rigged and they needed the drama and a game 7.
How did the Houston Texans not win or even make the Super Bowl with the most pro bowlers of any AFC team....must have been Crean coaching the Texans.
How did the 49ers not win the Super Bowl with the most pro bowlers of any NFC team...must have been Crean coaching San Francisco....Harbaugh's brother CREAN!!
How did Kentucky, with 2 first rounders tonight not even make the NCAA tournament.....CREAN!
How did the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox and Angels not win the World Series last year...three of those teams didn't even make the baseball playoffs despite having the top 4 payrolls? CREAN!!!
How does the USA with the best military in the world lose to a third world country in a war like Vietnam? CREAN
And on and on. It's funny, and so predictable....told my IU next door neighbor this would be the verbiage of the hate crowd. You can write this stuff years in advance. If they lose, Crean. If they win, players did it. Pretty simple formula.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:47:51 AM
How does the USA with the best military in the world lose to a third world country in a war like Vietnam? CREAN
We did not lose. We were not allowed to win. And Jane Fonda.
(http://www.americans-working-together.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jane.jpg)
(http://twg2a.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/janefondahanoijane1.jpg)
(http://www.political-humor.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/jane-fonda-communist-at-heart-traitor-by-choice.jpg)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:07:13 AM
How did the Miami Heat need a fluke rebound and 3 point shot with 5 seconds left just to win game 6 and force a game 7 when they have the best player in the world? Plus Ray Allen. Plus Dwyane Wade? Plus Chris Bosh...they had 3 of the top 5 players drafted in the 2003 draft on the same team. How did they need 7 games and that miracle to win? Let alone need 7 games the series before to beat Indiana?
LOL
Simple, Miami was outcoached by San Antonio. See how that works ;D
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:47:51 AM
And on and on. It's funny, and so predictable....told my IU next door neighbor this would be the verbiage of the hate crowd. You can write this stuff years in advance. If they lose, Crean. If they win, players did it. Pretty simple formula.
Directly from Crean's mouth...they lost because of Cody Zeller. Cody was told to shoot the free throw line jumper against Syracuse whenever he received that pass... but he was too hesitant. This was said to a number of people on the private flight from Indiana to Omaha last week. Crean, Glass, and a number of big donors were on the flight. Crean could not stop yapping about it.
Crean sucks.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:47:51 AM
How did the Houston Texans not win or even make the Super Bowl with the most pro bowlers of any AFC team....must have been Crean coaching the Texans.
How did the 49ers not win the Super Bowl with the most pro bowlers of any NFC team...must have been Crean coaching San Francisco....Harbaugh's brother CREAN!!
How did Kentucky, with 2 first rounders tonight not even make the NCAA tournament.....CREAN!
How did the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox and Angels not win the World Series last year...three of those teams didn't even make the baseball playoffs despite having the top 4 payrolls? CREAN!!!
How does the USA with the best military in the world lose to a third world country in a war like Vietnam? CREAN
Hey, you are finally catching on. You forgot global warming, hurricanes, big oil, and terrorist attacks, all the fault of Crean.
Quote from: keefe on June 28, 2013, 01:41:31 AM
We did not lose. We were not allowed to win. And Jane Fonda.
We did not lose a single battle yet still lost the war. I'm with you on this, Keefe.
(http://www.loltech.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/haters_gonna_hate.jpg)
Quote from: indeelaw90 on June 28, 2013, 06:54:53 AM
Directly from Crean's mouth...they lost because of Cody Zeller. Cody was told to shoot the free throw line jumper against Syracuse whenever he received that pass... but he was too hesitant. This was said to a number of people on the private flight from Indiana to Omaha last week. Crean, Glass, and a number of big donors were on the flight. Crean could not stop yapping about it.
But Cody is an academic AA. How was he unable to understand his coach's simple instructions? LOL. Their will be only a few people on this board surprised to hear that TC threw one of his guys under the bus to explain a loss in which his players looked totally confused and I'll prepared. That's who he is.
Quote from: indeelaw90 on June 28, 2013, 06:54:53 AM
Directly from Crean's mouth...they lost because of Cody Zeller. Cody was told to shoot the free throw line jumper against Syracuse whenever he received that pass... but he was too hesitant. This was said to a number of people on the private flight from Indiana to Omaha last week. Crean, Glass, and a number of big donors were on the flight. Crean could not stop yapping about it.
The typical people will jump all over this but.......Crean's right. That's why you play a stretch 5 against Cuse. No shock our Cookie Monster looked his best against the Orange. Zeller was in position during that game time and time again. That written, people seem to forget that Jimmy had his professionals playing their best basketball of the season against Indiana which continued into their decimation of Marquette. In a one game playoff tournament, that equals failure.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 28, 2013, 09:05:33 AM
But Cody is an academic AA. How was he unable to understand his coach's simple instructions? LOL. Their will be only a few people on this board surprised to hear that TC threw one of his guys under the bus to explain a loss in which his players looked totally confused and I'll prepared. That's who he is.
Crean threw a player under the buss in a
private conversation. Classic. I wonder if Buzz has ever said anything in private to someone about a player that was equally and brutally honest, but hasn't come to light yet.
You're kidding if you don't think that is the case. That's what private conversations are....private. You don't thrown anyone under the buss in private, the defies the definition of it.
Crean is exactly right and Zeller admitted as much last month when talking about the game plan and how HE didn't execute it properly.
Crean's team won the Big Ten title, that's what you do over the longhaul with a very good team and a couple of studs, because an off night is equaled out by the many good nights....all teams have them. In a one game scenario, anything can happen.
And yes, GoldenAvalanche, the "typical people" do jump all over this because that's what they do. The same "typical people" that to this day still haven't acknowledged getting to the Final Four, only the Final Four loss. It's amazing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:47:51 AM
How did the Houston Texans not win or even make the Super Bowl with the most pro bowlers of any AFC team....must have been Crean coaching the Texans.
How did the 49ers not win the Super Bowl with the most pro bowlers of any NFC team...must have been Crean coaching San Francisco....Harbaugh's brother CREAN!!
How did Kentucky, with 2 first rounders tonight not even make the NCAA tournament.....CREAN!
How did the Yankees, Phillies, Red Sox and Angels not win the World Series last year...three of those teams didn't even make the baseball playoffs despite having the top 4 payrolls? CREAN!!!
How does the USA with the best military in the world lose to a third world country in a war like Vietnam? CREAN
Come up with all the bad analogies and apples to pomegranates comparisons you want, here are the FACTS. Nine (9) teams before the Hoosiers had 2 players go in the top 5 of the NBA draft. Every single one of them made it to the Elite 8 and 7 of the 9 made the final four.
So, continue with the crapshoot BS but pardon the rest of us for calling it what it was - failure - unprecedented and epic.
A couple of things.
If someone here posted Buzz said something in private on a plane people here would demand a link or proof. People would go ape crap crazy if that was posted. Maybe such a conversation happened where a MU booster asked Buzz what the 39 point game plan was...who knows.
Context is also important. Did someone ask what the game plan was against Syracuse and he said if was to have Cody pop from the stripe, penetrate and kick, etc, but Cody didn't take the opportunities? Who knows, but easy enough to find out. I reached out to Fred this morning since supposedly he was on the plane. I'm curious to his reaction to what was said, how it was said and perhaps he may want to have a chat with those who were on the plane.
So we'll see what Fred has to say. Always found him to be a standup person.
Chicos I guess you didn't see this so here it is again
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 28, 2013, 09:42:04 AM
Come up with all the bad analogies and apples to pomegranates comparisons you want, here are the FACTS. Nine (9) teams before the Hoosiers had 2 players go in the top 5 of the NBA draft. Every single one of them made it to the Elite 8 and 7 of the 9 made the final four.
So, continue with the crapshoot BS but pardon the rest of us for calling it what it was - failure - unprecedented and epic.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 10:14:13 AM
A couple of things.
If someone here posted Buzz said something in private on a plane people here would demand a link or proof. People would go ape crap crazy if that was posted. Maybe such a conversation happened where a MU booster asked Buzz what the 39 point game plan was...who knows.
Context is also important. Did someone ask what the game plan was against Syracuse and he said if was to have Cody pop from the stripe, penetrate and kick, etc, but Cody didn't take the opportunities? Who knows, but easy enough to find out. I reached out to Fred this morning since supposedly he was on the plane. I'm curious to his reaction to what was said, how it was said and perhaps he may want to have a chat with those who were on the plane.
So we'll see what Fred has to say. Always found him to be a standup person.
Sorry, Chicos. I've seen TC do this in public before. "Our plan was perfect but the players didn't execute" is an oft heard mantra.
How did it take you all of two minutes after Zeller was drafted to start this thread?
You're clearly off your game.
The two donors who told me in separate conversations know my feelings about Crean (I actually like the guy when I have met him). Both were pretty peeved at Crean's continually harping on this point that he had the gameplan to beat Syracuse, just Cody did not do what he was told to do. How about just saying we got beat by a better team on that day (their words, not mine).
What sucks is because of that loss, IU lost the CapitalOne Cup.
Quote from: Pakuni on June 28, 2013, 11:56:23 AM
How did it take you all of two minutes after Zeller was drafted to start this thread?
You're clearly off your game.
Are you suggesting that 4ever has lost a step? Blasphemy!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 28, 2013, 09:42:04 AM
Come up with all the bad analogies and apples to pomegranates comparisons you want, here are the FACTS. Nine (9) teams before the Hoosiers had 2 players go in the top 5 of the NBA draft. Every single one of them made it to the Elite 8 and 7 of the 9 made the final four.
So, continue with the crapshoot BS but pardon the rest of us for calling it what it was - failure - unprecedented and epic.
Lenny
You forgot shameful, loathsome, and despicable.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 12:07:13 AM
5 years ago, IU had one player on the team that had played a total of 19 minutes. 5 years later, two kids drafted in the top 5, a bunch of guys on Academic All Big Ten, players graduating, Big Ten title....I'd say he's more than turned things around. Haters keep on hating. I heard Crean was fired last year.
And 6 years ago they were an NCAA team, 7 years ago they won a Big Ten title. Tommy decided to tear down and build back up, that's on him.
Quote from: The Lens on June 28, 2013, 05:58:45 PM
And 6 years ago they were an NCAA team, 7 years ago they won a Big Ten title. Tommy decided to tear down and build back up, that's on him.
How dare you attempt to undermine the runic aspects of an epic saga! Tom Crean is a modern day Sigurd and the Rebirth of Indiana Basketball is The Tale of the Volsungs set forth on the turbid waters of the sacred White River. Armed with the mystical wisdom of the Valkyries Sigurd/Crean slays dragons, rescues maidens, and inspires a forlorn people bereft of hope that there can be redemption in the aftermath of the ruinous reign of the baleful ogre Sampson. This is an unforgettable chronicle of jealousy, betrayal, greed, vengeance, lust, and pride giving way to deliverance and salvation.
Quote from: The Lens on June 28, 2013, 05:58:45 PM
And 6 years ago they were an NCAA team, 7 years ago they won a Big Ten title. Tommy decided to tear down and build back up, that's on him.
He had no choice, the school demanded it. Also the right thing to do. They won a share of the Big Ten title.....ELEVEN YEARS AGO, not seven years ago.
The one they won this year was the first outright title in more than two decades.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 28, 2013, 09:42:04 AM
Come up with all the bad analogies and apples to pomegranates comparisons you want, here are the FACTS. Nine (9) teams before the Hoosiers had 2 players go in the top 5 of the NBA draft. Every single one of them made it to the Elite 8 and 7 of the 9 made the final four.
So, continue with the crapshoot BS but pardon the rest of us for calling it what it was - failure - unprecedented and epic.
Bad analogies....they are dead on analogies.
Secondly, it's not Zeller or IU's fault that one of the worst human beings and definitely the worst executive in the NBA made a guy that was slotted as the 10th to 14th pick and made him a top 5. That's just pure stupidity on MJ's part, something we have come and seen as an everyday event.
And you and every other goofball here saying how weak of a draft it. Are you saying the 2003 draft top 5 games is the same as this one? Please, you're better than that, even if you want your hatred to cloud your judgment. Almost every year's draft is better talent that this one, which means those other teams with those top 5 players were a hell of a lot better players. So please, keep trying.
Quote from: keefe on June 28, 2013, 07:30:35 PM
How dare you attempt to undermine the runic aspects of an epic saga! Tom Crean is a modern day Sigurd and the Rebirth of Indiana Basketball is The Tale of the Volsungs set forth on the turbid waters of the sacred White River. Armed with the mystical wisdom of the Valkyries Sigurd/Crean slays dragons, rescues maidens, and inspires a forlorn people bereft of hope that there can be redemption in the aftermath of the ruinous reign of the baleful ogre Sampson. This is an unforgettable chronicle of jealousy, betrayal, greed, vengeance, lust, and pride giving way to deliverance and salvation.
Pretty funny, considering his data was wrong....what's that about undermining again? LOL
Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 28, 2013, 11:47:35 AM
Sorry, Chicos. I've seen TC do this in public before. "Our plan was perfect but the players didn't execute" is an oft heard mantra.
I've seen it to, from Buzz Williams and a bunch of other coaches. Remember, when Buzz does it it's ok, it's just coach speak. ::)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 08:43:46 PM
Pretty funny, considering his data was wrong....what's that about undermining again? LOL
Please, Chico, heroic figures in soul-stirring epics don't require such incidental minutiae as accurate data...Where is your sense of drama and appreciation for dauntless gallantry?
(http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6003/B1DB100Z/posters/william-hamilton-very-good-gary-a-hero-is-a-celebrity-who-did-something-real-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg)
(http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/61/6148/5BEG100Z/posters/jack-ziegler-wife-sitting-in-living-room-reading-says-to-husband-in-super-hero-costume-cartoon.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-b_1Tc46jaU4/Tt2uPXcjzmI/AAAAAAAAA2U/1eru3mhDO1E/s1600/anti%2B314.jpg)
Tougher question (although many of us know the answer):
How did I4 not get past the S16 in either of the last two seasons?
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 28, 2013, 10:47:15 PM
Tougher question (although many of us know the answer):
How did I4 not get past the S16 in either of the last two seasons?
They needed more than 2 lottery draft picks to overcome inferior coaching?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
They won a share of the Big Ten title.....ELEVEN YEARS AGO, not seven years ago.
Did they cut down the nets?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 28, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
He had no choice, the school demanded it. Also the right thing to do. They won a share of the Big Ten title.....ELEVEN YEARS AGO, not seven years ago.
The one they won this year was the first outright title in more than two decades.
My bad, got my facts mixed up.
2007 10-6 in Conf.
2008 14-4 in Conf. And then Crean hired.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on June 27, 2013, 07:05:38 PM
Two of the first 4 picks, wow.
Back to you original question 4ever, how IU did not win the championship....they lost in a one and done.
Just like:
Duke didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 3 NBA picks under Coach K in 2002
UCLA didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 5 picks in 2008
North Carolina didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 5 picks in 1998
Ohio State didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 4 picks in 2007
Kentucky didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 5 picks in 2010
North Carolina didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 4 picks in 1995
UCONN didn't win the championship with 4 first rounders
Etc, etc. One and done, it's a crap shoot, biggest in all of sports. Always has been, always will be.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/ncaa-tournament-built-on-gambling-not-finding-the-best-team/Content?oid=2320718
Quote from: The Lens on June 29, 2013, 10:15:53 AM
My bad, got my facts mixed up.
2007 10-6 in Conf.
2008 14-4 in Conf. And then Crean hired.
In a Big Ten that was a shadow of itself compared to today, I might add. Big Ten with 4 bids to show just how pathetic that conference was in 2008.
Quote from: keefe on June 28, 2013, 01:41:31 AM
We did not lose. We were not allowed to win.
So you lost?
You didn't win, so either a draw and a loss.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 29, 2013, 10:32:01 AM
Back to you original question 4ever, how IU did not win the championship....they lost in a one and done.
Just like:
Duke didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 3 NBA picks under Coach K in 2002
UCLA didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 5 picks in 2008
North Carolina didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 5 picks in 1998
Ohio State didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 4 picks in 2007
Kentucky didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 5 picks in 2010
North Carolina didn't win the championship with 2 of the first 4 picks in 1995
UCONN didn't win the championship with 4 first rounders
Etc, etc. One and done, it's a crap shoot, biggest in all of sports. Always has been, always will be.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/ncaa-tournament-built-on-gambling-not-finding-the-best-team/Content?oid=2320718
How many of those teams failed to win their S16 game? oic
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on June 29, 2013, 04:38:51 PM
So you lost?
You didn't win, so either a draw and a loss.
Though there is a yin-yang to life the vast majority of experience, observation, activity, behavior and thought resides in the languid shadows of that large gray void. It must be frightfully boring to reduce all of human existence to an Aristotelian syllogism.
And the fact is that Chico is wrong, the military did not lose the armed conflict in Vietnam. But we as a society experienced a profound catharsis which can never be packaged into a facile dyadic construct. Some outcomes are far too complex and abstruse to trivialize as you suggest.
The Chinese author Mo Yan laments that the single biggest problem with thought today is the distinct lack of subtlety. Please reflect on that.
Quote from: Jay Bee on June 29, 2013, 05:53:58 PM
How many of those teams failed to win their S16 game? oic
I believe the title of the thread was about the championship.
Secondly, this top 5 picks is perhaps the worst in NbA draft history, so comparing them to what stronger top 5 picks did with different teams is not a true comparison.
However, if you are looking for the answer it is the same answer as the one to this question. How many teams in NCAA tournament failed to score at least 40 points in an Elite 8 game prior to 2013. Same answer.
Quote from: keefe on June 29, 2013, 06:49:56 PM
Though there is a yin-yang to life the vast majority of experience, observation, activity, behavior and thought resides in the languid shadows of that large gray void. It must be frightfully boring to reduce all of human existence to an Aristotelian syllogism.
And the fact is that Chico is wrong, the military did not lose the armed conflict in Vietnam. But we as a society experienced a profound catharsis which can never be packaged into a facile dyadic construct. Some outcomes are far too complex and abstruse to trivialize as you suggest.
The Chinese author Mo Yan laments that the single biggest problem with thought today is the distinct lack of subtlety. Please reflect on that.
Call it what you want, I don't disagree with you or Lenny from a military perspective, but wars aren't simply won on the battlefield. There are geopolitical considerations, hearts and minds, etc. My family was in that war as well, so I've heard it all firsthand. Sure, militarily we won every battle, but there are "elements" in this country that don't like wars no matter what...literally, no matter what. Be it far lefties or some libertarians, etc, that's the new paradigm. Many of them are in the media and guide what gets to your living room and have great sway in how things are viewed. Also factor in that a few folks in our military acted like total asshats during that war with abuses, etc, plus an enemy that was willing to keep coming back for more and more, it's a recipe for ultimate defeat even if we didn't lose on the battlefield.
We aren't allowed to fight wars to win them anymore. If today's technology and media (hell, if 1970's technology) was around during WWII, some of these same folks mentioned above wouldn't have allowed us to bomb Tokyo, drop two A-Bombs, etc. Today it's all about no collateral damage, and that makes it a lot harder to win wars than it used to be. Throw in those internally in this country that don't care about the U.S. (though they are Americans), a compliant media, etc, and its that much harder. Lots of Jane Fondas, Code Pinks, John Kerry's, etc, out there. Winning becomes almost impossible and the enemy knows it. All they have to do is hunker down and wait for a few bad stories to hit the homeland on the their TV sets and watch the erosion begin.
It's the shoes:
(http://cdn.sneakerreport.com/assets/Oladipo-1.jpg)
Oh wait. Louisville is also Adidas.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 29, 2013, 09:43:50 PM
Call it what you want, I don't disagree with you or Lenny from a military perspective, but wars aren't simply won on the battlefield. There are geopolitical considerations, hearts and minds, etc. My family was in that war as well, so I've heard it all firsthand. Sure, militarily we won every battle, but there are "elements" in this country that don't like wars no matter what...literally, no matter what. Be it far lefties or some libertarians, etc, that's the new paradigm. Many of them are in the media and guide what gets to your living room and have great sway in how things are viewed. Also factor in that a few folks in our military acted like total asshats during that war with abuses, etc, plus an enemy that was willing to keep coming back for more and more, it's a recipe for ultimate defeat even if we didn't lose on the battlefield.
We aren't allowed to fight wars to win them anymore. If today's technology and media (hell, if 1970's technology) was around during WWII, some of these same folks mentioned above wouldn't have allowed us to bomb Tokyo, drop two A-Bombs, etc. Today it's all about no collateral damage, and that makes it a lot harder to win wars than it used to be. Throw in those internally in this country that don't care about the U.S. (though they are Americans), a compliant media, etc, and its that much harder. Lots of Jane Fondas, Code Pinks, John Kerry's, etc, out there. Winning becomes almost impossible and the enemy knows it. All they have to do is hunker down and wait for a few bad stories to hit the homeland on the their TV sets and watch the erosion begin.
You are obviously a disciple of von Clausewitz. The Baron was the first to write that war is the dialectical interaction of various diaphanous influences that lead to unpredictable consequences and unforeseen outcomes. This was his Fog of War Theory. As you note, von Clausewitz stressed the moral and political dimensions of war being the most important rather than battlespace engagement. von Clausewitz was the first theorist to observe that war was simply a continuation of state policy by other means, stripping away medieval concepts of glorious conflict and honor-based struggle.
As regards Vietnam, the coalition forces fighting North Vietnamese aggression against the Saigon government thoroughly destroyed the Viet Cong guerilla forces as an effective political and military organization by the summer of 1968 and yet Walter Cronkite was on the Evening News declaring Tet a coalition defeat. The Vietnam Conflict was the first fought in the living rooms of America as live action from the front was broadcast while Middle America sat down to dinner with Chet and David providing color commentary. Civilian squeamishness with gore and mayhem elevated political opposition in ways Patton, Bradley, and MacArthur never envisioned possible or acceptable. One of Schwarzkopf's most important combat victories was how he managed the press during Desert Storm.
Political management of the Vietnam Conflict reached absurd levels of involvement. LBJ personally selected targets for air strikes from maps and recce photos laid out on the Oval Office carpet. Daily FRAGOs had to wait for Presidential approval - something a seasoned Major should have been doing in an Air Operations Center rather than the CinC from the White House.
Absurd ROE tied the hands of warriors while strengthening the enemy. The NVA knew that Laos and Cambodia were safe havens that allowed them opportunity for reconstitution and regeneration. Haiphong was an open port and weaponry poured in from China and the CCCP. von Clausewitz had a maxim for victory: Seize the Capital. And yet Hanoi (as well as the rest of North Vietnam!) were banned as targets. Can you imagine FDR telling Hap Arnold that bombing Berlin was off-limits? Or Winston Churchill ordering Sir Arthur Harris to not bomb the Ruhr? It is unthinkable that Harry Truman would have forbidden Curt LeMay from bombing Tokyo. And yet that was the lunacy dictating Air Power Doctrine and employment in Vietnam.
I understand there were geopolitical considerations but von Clausewitz would have been appalled at how the US ran that war. And recently disclosed material from the Kremlin proves that Brezhnev would not have gone DefCon One over Ho Chi Minh. The Soviets were happy to have the NVA keep pin pricking the US but would never have pushed their Moscow and Leningrad chips into the pot. The Cold War construct of MAD was validated.
The bottom line is that the US squandered 58,209 American lives and millions of Vietnamese by tilting at chimeric windmills. The incredible amount of capital we poured into that sinkhole without any realistic plan for actually winning is criminal. Anytime you ask American men and women to risk everything by going into harm's way the nation has a sacred obligation to do everything possible to ensure them every advantage for victory and an expedient return home. We failed them terribly in Vietnam and were doing the same in OIF and OEF until Gen David Petraeus threatened to resign if the ROE were not changed.
I can tell you that prior to The Surge OIF Coalition Forces were banned from targeting mosques, schools, residences, markets, etc... So guess where the insurgents holed up? Petraeus argued correctly that a mosque garrisoned by AQI insurgents was no longer a mosque but a fortress. For 3 years we let armed Islamic radical insurgents from Bosnia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Chechnya, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc... fire on American service members with impunity from schools and mosques. In 2007 that changed and guess what? We annihilated the insurgency and American troops no longer garrison Iraq. I pray to God that future political leaders of this Republic learn the COIN lessons from OIF as promulgated by Gen Petraeus so that we lose not one single American life unnecessarily.
I have been in an CAS 4 Ship Battle Box overhead American ground forces getting pounded in al Anbar by Islamic radicals who were firing from a Mosque and residential buildings. The Marines were locked in but couldn't return fire. We had 4 fully loaded A10s that could have ended the fire fight in 3 seconds but the ROE would not allow us to fire on a mosque. American Marines died that day because a lawyer in Washington DC never read Sun Tzu or von Clausewitz. Thank God David Petraeus has a pair.
My family that was in the war constantly touts the ROE as one of the main reasons. As stated, we aren't allowed to win wars anymore without tying both hand behind our backs and one leg. It's a very different country from the greatest generation when folks were willing to do what had to be done, even if it got messy sometimes. They knew what it took.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 29, 2013, 11:47:58 PM
My family that was in the war constantly touts the ROE as one of the main reasons. As stated, we aren't allowed to win wars anymore without tying both hand behind our backs and one leg. It's a very different country from the greatest generation when folks were willing to do what had to be done, even if it got messy sometimes. They knew what it took.
War is messy. The post-action battlespace at Operation Mountain Fury looks the same as at the Siege of Khandahar in 1737. We just kill from greater distance. The blood is just as red and metallic tasting. Intestines spilling out of torn stomachs still resemble purple bratwurst while bodies bloat, swell, and hiss in the sub-tropical sun as they have for millennia. And young men still cry out for their mothers instinctively as metal tears through flesh and bone. Nothing can rival the intensity, fury, and utter chaos of combat.
Quote from: keefe on June 29, 2013, 06:49:56 PM
Though there is a yin-yang to life the vast majority of experience, observation, activity, behavior and thought resides in the languid shadows of that large gray void. It must be frightfully boring to reduce all of human existence to an Aristotelian syllogism.
And the fact is that Chico is wrong, the military did not lose the armed conflict in Vietnam. But we as a society experienced a profound catharsis which can never be packaged into a facile dyadic construct. Some outcomes are far too complex and abstruse to trivialize as you suggest.
The Chinese author Mo Yan laments that the single biggest problem with thought today is the distinct lack of subtlety. Please reflect on that.
The military did lose in Vietnam. The US Army was held at bay by guerilla warriors who had no where near the firepower available to them when compared to the US. The war was a failure. The policy of containment failed. Vietnam united under Communism, the very thing the war was meant to prevent. So the military did lose. I'm not undermining veterans, what they sacrificed can't be described, but to say the military didn't lose the war in Vietnam is a bit farfetched. From a military strategy point of view, it was a disaster.
Quote from: setyoursightsnorth on June 30, 2013, 02:00:48 AM
The military did lose in Vietnam. The US Army was held at bay by guerilla warriors who had no where near the firepower available to them when compared to the US. The war was a failure. The policy of containment failed. Vietnam united under Communism, the very thing the war was meant to prevent. So the military did lose. I'm not undermining veterans, what they sacrificed can't be described, but to say the military didn't lose the war in Vietnam is a bit farfetched. From a military strategy point of view, it was a disaster.
You realize of course that the Truman Doctrine was based on Kennan's Foreign Affairs article, The Sources of Soviet Conduct. Kennan argued that the Soviet Union was inherently expansionist, not for ideological reasons, but for the simple fact of Tsarist Realpolitik tradition. His thesis was that Moscow needed to be contained in geographies of strategic importance to the West. Vietnam certainly lay beyond that sphere and Kennan argued vehemently against US involvement in a French post-colonial transition issue (remember, of course, that French colonial control and security was reimposed and enforced by the Japanese Imperial Army whose troops continued to garrison Indochina on behalf of the French until 1950.)
So was the failure of the Truman Doctrine in Indochina the responsibility of the military, as you suggest? I think before you answer this you need to read from a balanced bibliography to include:
"The Sources of Soviet Conduct," Foreign Affairs, George F. Kennan
Vietnam: A History, Stanley Karnow
The Quiet American, Graham Greene
A Rumor of War, Phil Caputo
A Bright Shining Lie, Neil Sheehan
Anatomy of a War, Gabriel Kolko
Fire In the Lake, Frances FitzGerald
The Best and the Brightest, David Halberstam
Triumph Forsaken, Mark Moyar
A Better War, Lewis Sorley
Dispatches, Michael Herr
Fields of Fire, Jim Webb
A Soldier Reports, William Westmoreland
In Retrospect, Robert McNamara
Class Warfare, Noam Chomsky
Fighter Pilot, Robin Olds
People's War, Vo Nguyen Giap
Ho Chi Minh, William Duiker
The Lost Valley: Dien Bien Phu and the French defeat in Vietnam, Martin Windrow
The Other Side of Heaven, Minh Kue Le & Tru Ong Vu
The Things They Carried, Tim O'Brien
I think you will find this reading provides a balanced overview of what Vietnam was and meant to all parties concerned.