MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: WI inferiority Complexes on June 04, 2013, 08:16:21 PM
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http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9301536/major-league-baseball-suspend-20-players-including-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-part-miami-investigation (http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9301536/major-league-baseball-suspend-20-players-including-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-part-miami-investigation)
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whoa whoa whoa... braun was/is clean. a lot of people here said so.
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If Detroit loses Peralta for an extended period, it will hurt. Ironically, he bulked up a year ago and stunk. Lost a bunch of weight this year, a contract year, and he is tearing it up.
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Do not get me started on this.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/02064c92eec536e5b21fb62075d0e4f4/tumblr_mm93b3xE0b1qltc1qo1_500.gif)
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To everyone who believed his last sample was tampered with:
Give me your new excuses.
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The ghosts at the Pfister tampered with Braun's piss.
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To everyone who believed his last sample was tampered with:
Give me your new excuses.
My best guess...
He used Bosch as a consultant. That's the only reason his name was on the list. Besides, just because he bought PEDs that doesn't mean he used them. He probably bought them for Alex Gonzalez and since the Brewers were aware that this news was about to break, they released Gonzo to wash their hands of the whole thing.
Either that or MLB is doing this because they're a bunch of butthurt Bulls fans.
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Well, if they want to suspend him it must be because he's guilty as sin. What other reason could it be?
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So let me get this straight.
1.) The MLB sues this guy and this lawsuit shuts down this guys clinic and he goes broke.
2.) The MLB then offers him support on his trial, AND will pay him for his testimony.
3.) ESPN catches wind of this, everyone circle jerks themselves into a frenzy.
And, MLB still hasn't talked to this guy (who from everything I have read is not the best of characters), players have no positive drug tests, AND they will try to make this a 2nd offense meaning a 100 game suspension.
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The Yankees could get out of the A-Rod deal if its proven that he used PED's??
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The Yankees could get out of the A-Rod deal if its proven that he used PED's??
Nope:
The Yankees also saw the possibility of an escape hatch from their financial commitment to an injured player in apparent decline. They considered the possibility of voiding Rodriguez’s contract over the supposed misdeeds. But baseball’s substance-abuse policy mandates the punishment through suspensions; financial penalties are prohibited.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/sports/baseball/yankees-hitched-to-alex-rodriguez-an-aging-star-anatomy-of-a-deal-and-doubts.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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So let me get this straight.
1.) The MLB sues this guy and this lawsuit shuts down this guys clinic and he goes broke.
2.) The MLB then offers him support on his trial, AND will pay him for his testimony.
3.) ESPN catches wind of this, everyone circle jerks themselves into a frenzy.
And, MLB still hasn't talked to this guy (who from everything I have read is not the best of characters), players have no positive drug tests, AND they will try to make this a 2nd offense meaning a 100 game suspension.
Completely agree. Ryan Braun might very well be guilt as sin on using PEDs (I have to think he is), but keep in mind there is an agenda here and if the report is coming out of ESPN I guarantee you MLB leaked it. MLB has a major PR issue with PEDs on their hands and (smartly) they are trying to get out ahead of it and spin it their way.
This is going to be tried in the court of public opinion and the faster and louder you get your version of the story out there, the more likely it is to become the prevailing narrative.
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Completely agree. Ryan Braun might very well be guilt as sin on using PEDs (I have to think he is), but keep in mind there is an agenda here and if the report is coming out of ESPN I guarantee you MLB leaked it. MLB has a major PR issue with PEDs on their hands and (smartly) they are trying to get out ahead of it and spin it their way.
MLB had a major PR issue with PEDs about five years ago. Now people kind of have gone through steroid-overkill and have a ho-hum attitude about the whole thing.
Honestly, MLB has no reason to pursue this the way they have unless they are thoroughly convinced of their guilt, OR they are misreading the public sentiment.
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Let me also say that I think in the public's mind, there is a big difference between "steroids" that bulk a person up and turn them into something they aren't, and a "PED" like synthetic testosterone that helps a player come back from injury quicker but doesn't seemingly change the players outward appearance AND allows that person to run ragged over the record books.
I'm not saying that there *should* be a difference...just that the public views it that way.
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Let me also say that I think in the public's mind, there is a big difference between "steroids" that bulk a person up and turn them into something they aren't, and a "PED" like synthetic testosterone that helps a player come back from injury quicker but doesn't seemingly change the players outward appearance AND allows that person to run ragged over the record books.
I'm not saying that there *should* be a difference...just that the public views it that way.
Disagree. To most of the general public, the terms "PEDs" and "steroids" are interchangeable.
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MLB had a major PR issue with PEDs about five years ago. Now people kind of have gone through steroid-overkill and have a ho-hum attitude about the whole thing.
Honestly, MLB has no reason to pursue this the way they have unless they are thoroughly convinced of their guilt, OR they are misreading the public sentiment.
I think MLB is pursuing it hard because they feel they have to look tough on PEDs. They were very slow out of the gate and have had numerous missteps to date. Even in ESPN's reporting, it states MLB doesn't even know exactly what Bosch will cop to. Again, I think there is something there, but MLB is going to overaggressively pursue it and go after all players associated with the whole thing.
What's going to be funny is ESPN is going to foam at the mouth for a couple of days and then this will go away for a while, because MLB has a lot of interviews and data to collect before they can even decide to punish someone. It's probably going to be 6 months before we hear anything more definitive on this. That's why I think this is all PR, MLB doesn't have a case built yet and they're leaking news of a potential 100 game suspension.
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Disagree. To most of the general public, the terms "PEDs" and "steroids" are interchangeable.
I agree with your disagreement
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Disagree. To most of the general public, the terms "PEDs" and "steroids" are interchangeable.
Well then if that is the case, then the public has lost much of their outrage about it.
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I think MLB is pursuing it hard because they feel they have to look tough on PEDs. They were very slow out of the gate and have had numerous missteps to date. Even in ESPN's reporting, it states MLB doesn't even know exactly what Bosch will cop to. Again, I think there is something there, but MLB is going to overaggressively pursue it and go after all players associated with the whole thing.
What's going to be funny is ESPN is going to foam at the mouth for a couple of days and then this will go away for a while, because MLB has a lot of interviews and data to collect before they can even decide to punish someone. It's probably going to be 6 months before we hear anything more definitive on this. That's why I think this is all PR, MLB doesn't have a case built yet and they're leaking news of a potential 100 game suspension.
OK...that makes sense.
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Well then if that is the case, then the public has lost much of their outrage about it.
That I agree with. A large number of sports fans believe that a very high percentage of pro athletes are taking some form of performance-enhancers and they just don't care. It's all about entertainment. If athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic, hit the ball farther, throw the ball harder, make bigger hits, then sports are more fun to watch. The PED issue only came to a head in baseball because cherished records were being shattered by players who were blatantly cheating.
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Ryan Braun was guilty as sin but got off due to a good lawyer and MLB's incompetence. Now there going to try to nail him big for a lesser infraction by turning one of the bad guys. Reminds me of the OJ mess (without the dead body).
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Heaven forbid the worldwide leader actually post something that is rooted fact and logic, and not innuendo.
www.sbnation.com/mlb/2013/6/5/4398224/biogenesis-bosch-mlb-suspensions-ryan-braun-alex-rodriguez
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Well, if they want to suspend him it must be because he's guilty as sin. What other reason could it be?
This is pure speculation, but I bet there are guys at MLB that want to get Braun bad after he got off on that technicality. However, this case does seem to be bigger than Braun.
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My best guess...
He used Bosch as a consultant. That's the only reason his name was on the list. Besides, just because he bought PEDs that doesn't mean he used them. He probably bought them for Alex Gonzalez and since the Brewers were aware that this news was about to break, they released Gonzo to wash their hands of the whole thing.
Either that or MLB is doing this because they're a bunch of butthurt Bulls fans.
Yeah, maybe he made the purchase to hand them out for trick or treat.
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Ryan Braun was guilty as sin but got off due to a good lawyer and MLB's incompetence. Now there going to try to nail him big for a lesser infraction by turning one of the bad guys. Reminds me of the OJ mess (without the dead body).
Except that NBS and RG were killed by Glen Rogers!
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Guilty as charged IMO. Sad state of affairs in all pro sports these days. Never was huge Braun fan, but definitely gave him benefit of the doubt when this first broke 18 months ago. Basically makes my decision on visiting Miller Park or not a little easier for rest of summer.
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MLB Commissioner wants dopers that bring excitement to the game, but then cries foul when someone gets caught.
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Guilty as charged IMO. Sad state of affairs in all pro sports these days. Never was huge Braun fan, but definitely gave him benefit of the doubt when this first broke 18 months ago. Basically makes my decision on visiting Miller Park or not a little easier for rest of summer.
Good grief.
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Guilty as charged IMO. Sad state of affairs in all pro sports these days. Never was huge Braun fan, but definitely gave him benefit of the doubt when this first broke 18 months ago. Basically makes my decision on visiting Miller Park or not a little easier for rest of summer.
I must have missed the part where Braun was charged with something.
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Complaining about why or how MLB is doing this is just throwing up red herrings.
MLB's motives aren't really relevant. All that matters is whether these guys took banned substances or not. If they did, they deserve their suspensions and ruined reputations.
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Complaining about why or how MLB is doing this is just throwing up red herrings.
MLB's motives aren't really relevant. All that matters is whether these guys took banned substances or not. If they did, they deserve their suspensions and ruined reputations.
So you're saying these are the only 20 guys who have yet to be caught who have taken a PED in professional baseball?
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So you're saying these are the only 20 guys who have yet to be caught who have taken a PED in professional baseball?
How did you get anything close to that from what I wrote?
And why is it relevant? Are you arguing that because some other cheaters have yet to be caught, the cheaters who have been caught should go unpunished?
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How did you get anything close to that from what I wrote?
And why is it relevant? Are you arguing that because some other cheaters have yet to be caught, the cheaters who have been caught should go unpunished?
Well technically they haven't been caught. If what is being reported is true, they will be suspended based on third party testimony.
Which doesn't mean they didn't do it.
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Well technically they haven't been caught. If what is being reported is true, they will be suspended based on third party testimony.
Which doesn't mean they didn't do it.
Exactly. They didn't get caught. Someone said he supplied them with PEDs. Not sure how MLB can suspend players based on that.
Not saying they're all squeeky clean (have said all along, well before ANYTHING about Braun being on PEDs came out, that I thought he probably did some sort of PED while at Miami when ARod would come back to town during the offseason). But going off some shady dude's work to suspend players for "using" PEDs is pretty shady in and of itself if you ask me.
Maybe I'll just make a list of Blackhawk players who I supplied PEDs to during their Stanley Cup run. Suspensions galore, those friggin cheaters.
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Also, it's a third party that conveniently will stay out of legal trouble for "leaking" information. And how convenient for him that rumors have been swirling about Braun and Rodriguez and that guys like Cabrera have already been suspended.
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Reinko
Good grief over saying I think he is guilty, gave him of benefit of the doubt or probably not have going to games as top priority? Been avid Brewer fan my whole life and fully support the organization. I definitely had hoped that he was not guilty and MLB moved onto other things. Not exactly sure what in my statement caused a good grief.
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Who has the most to gain from this coming out early? MLB and Bosch.
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Maybe when Braun is linked with steroids for a third time, people will stop making excuses.
Just accept your star player is flawed and stop making excuses. Watch its easy.
Michael Jordan: 100% dbag
Walter Payton: adulterer
Sammy Sosa: cheater
Patrick Kane: drunk
Mark Grace: drunk
Bobby Hull: drunk wife beater
Dwyane Wade: dirty player
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Maybe when Braun is linked with steroids for a third time, people will stop making excuses.
So you think that this is a separate instance? You think Braun tested positive at the end of the 2011 season, successfully appealed the suspension, and then went and juiced again? Hah. I've heard it all from Cubs fans.
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How are you arguing this is the second time he's been linked to steroids?
1) positive sample in 2011
2) linked to Miami PED clinic in 2013
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How are you arguing this is the second time he's been linked to steroids?
1) positive sample in 2011
2) linked to Miami PED clinic in 2013
And you think the Miami PED clinic and the positive sample are unrelated? Well, OK.
PS If this is the first you're hearing of Ryan Braun being liked to the Miami biogenesis lab then you've been living under a rock for quite some time.
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So let me get this straight.
1.) The MLB sues this guy and this lawsuit shuts down this guys clinic and he goes broke.
2.) The MLB then offers him support on his trial, AND will pay him for his testimony.
3.) ESPN catches wind of this, everyone circle jerks themselves into a frenzy.
And, MLB still hasn't talked to this guy (who from everything I have read is not the best of characters), players have no positive drug tests, AND they will try to make this a 2nd offense meaning a 100 game suspension.
I happen to believe Braun has been taking whatever, and I believe it because i also believe he is the rule, not the exception...they're "all" taking something. That said, if MLB tries to impose a 100 game suspension on him and others, based primarily on notebooks, and the word of some low life, the MLBPA is going to hand Bud Selig his head - probably for years to come.
The fact that so many of these guys are taking testosterone or whatever they're taking these days doesn't bother me. I just don't care. For me the game, my viewing, etc. is unaffected. What i find amusing is so many people claiming outrage and righteous indignation about this, who then spend every Sunday in the Fall watching NFL games, without a single complaint. Why its such a problem in baseball, but the same folks don't care about it where football is concerned is extremely odd to me.
Someone made the point that MLB screwed the pooch on steroids during the MacGuire, Sosa, Bonds era, and are trying to make up for it now. I guess i dont hink turning yourself into the hanging judge, and an unhealthy obsession with Ryan Braun is the way to do it. I found this to be pretty much on the money this morning...
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/04/when-it-comes-to-drugs-major-league-baseball-has-learned-nothing-from-the-past-wishes-to-learn-nothing-in-the-future/ (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/06/04/when-it-comes-to-drugs-major-league-baseball-has-learned-nothing-from-the-past-wishes-to-learn-nothing-in-the-future/)
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Maybe when Braun is linked with steroids for a third time, people will stop making excuses.
Just accept your star player is flawed and stop making excuses. Watch its easy.
Michael Jordan: 100% dbag
Walter Payton: adulterer
Sammy Sosa: cheater
Patrick Kane: drunk
Mark Grace: drunk
Bobby Hull: drunk wife beater
Dwyane Wade: dirty player
I am fairly certain that Braun did PEDs. Just like I am fairly certain all those you list did the things you are saying as well.
However, I also am fairly certain that he it will be very difficult to suspend him at all, much less for 100 games, based on third party testimony without some sort of evidence.
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I am fairly certain that Braun did PEDs. Just like I am fairly certain all those you list did the things you are saying as well.
However, I also am fairly certain that he it will be very difficult to suspend him at all, much less for 100 games, based on third party testimony without some sort of evidence.
the more relevant question, Skank, is do you forgive Braun?
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the more relevant question, Skank, is do you forgive Braun?
NEVER!!!
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Maybe when Braun is linked with steroids for a third time, people will stop making excuses.
Just accept your star player is flawed and stop making excuses. Watch its easy.
Michael Jordan: 100% dbag
Walter Payton: adulterer
Sammy Sosa: cheater
Patrick Kane: drunk
Mark Grace: drunk
Bobby Hull: drunk wife beater
Dwyane Wade: dirty player
Mickey Mantle was a drunken, adulterous, wife beater. And who said that his only Triple Crown was 1956??
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NEVER!!!
Of course not, he didn't committ a crime, which you consider much more important than God's Law.
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Who has the most to gain from this coming out early? MLB and Bosch.
Bosch, no question, though really, he comes out of it looking like a scumbag low life no matter what. The more I read and think about it however, the more I think MLB should just try to make it go away. They appear to be on shaky ground at best, and if they try to overplay their hand, i think it is far more likely that it ends as a complete embarrassment. I found this one funny this morning...
http://deadspin.com/report-a-rod-refuses-to-give-bosch-money-bosch-cuts-d-511597230?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow (http://deadspin.com/report-a-rod-refuses-to-give-bosch-money-bosch-cuts-d-511597230?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow)
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You gotta love Frank Thomas.
“The excuse [Braun] came up with, the guy taking his sample and changing the sample before it got to the laboratory. I mean, Jesus, they handle like a million samples a year and it never happens, so this is going to be something very serious and I look forward to seeing what happens,” Thomas said.
Even if he is able to escape guilt again, Thomas says that Braun’s legacy is permanently damaged.
“It’s going to be tainted forever.”
http://www.csnchicago.com/blog/sox-drawer/frank-thomas-blasts-ryan-braun
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It'd be a great comment if only Braun had actually said that.
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It'd be a great comment if only Braun had actually said that.
Braun is a liar and that is why someone has to say it for him.
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Regardless of suspension outcome, Braun has been well placed in the not-HOF list.
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Of course not, he didn't committ a crime, which you consider much more important than God's Law.
Perhaps you should learn how to read. It would be helpful.
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Regardless of suspension outcome, Braun has been well placed in the not-HOF list.
By the time Braun is HOF eligible 75% of the current writers will have already succumbed to heart disease.
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By the time Braun is HOF eligible 75% of the current writers will have already succumbed to heart disease.
Not to mention, 75% of the HOF candidates will get caught doping.
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Of course not, he didn't committ a crime, which you consider much more important than God's Law.
WWJD when it comes to PEDs?
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Braun is a liar and that is why someone has to say it for him.
Who said it on his behalf? Specific citations would be helpful.
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Who said it on his behalf? Specific citations would be helpful.
Future Hall of Famer and non-doper Frank Thomas said it on his behalf.
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When a guy's defenders turn from outright denial to the "everyone does it" excuse can the slamming of the door and the sound of the key turning in the lock be far away?
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I am fairly certain that Braun did PEDs. Just like I am fairly certain all those you list did the things you are saying as well.
However, I also am fairly certain that he it will be very difficult to suspend him at all, much less for 100 games, based on third party testimony without some sort of evidence.
You don't think perhaps Bosch kept records of what his company was shipping and to who? Is that not evidence? Does a defense of "Well, yeah, I ordered and received the PEDs, but I didn't actually use them" sound meritorious?
And I'm not sure why "third-party testimony" is being used as a pejorative here. There's nothing inherently bad about third-party testimony.
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You don't think perhaps Bosch kept records of what his company was shipping and to who? Is that not evidence? Does a defense of "Well, yeah, I ordered and received the PEDs, but I didn't actually use them" sound meritorious?
And I'm not sure why "third-party testimony" is being used as a pejorative here. There's nothing inherently bad about third-party testimony.
There is when it is compelled via strong arm tactics and borderline extortion schemes veiled as a lawsuit. I'm willing to change my tune if more comes out, but based on what I've seen there isn't anything other then Bosch's word and some cryptic notes(designed to not be clearly understood) that link these players to PEDs, and that all could very easily be manipulated to make players appear guilty.
Of course I think Braun and others used PEDs but the point is, the so called evidence is a known liar that is trying to avoid bankrupcy and some intentionally obfuscating documents. That would be barely circumstantial evidence in Law and Order let alone the real legal system.
Additionally, if the evidence was really solid, MLB would not have leaked this and attached nuclear level suspensions(MLBPA will go ballistic if they actually try that). MLB is trying to push things through so they can say they cleaned up the game and move on, they are trying to make up for their extremely slow reaction when PEDs first came up.
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There is when it is compelled via strong arm tactics and borderline extortion schemes veiled as a lawsuit.
Aren't most "witnesses"/informants flipped via strong arm tactics?
I mean, it's not like a lot of criminals suddenly have a change of heart and then rat our everybody they worked with.
They usually get caught, and the best way to save their own butt is to rat out their organization.
This seems like the same thing, right?
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You don't think perhaps Bosch kept records of what his company was shipping and to who? Is that not evidence? Does a defense of "Well, yeah, I ordered and received the PEDs, but I didn't actually use them" sound meritorious?
And I'm not sure why "third-party testimony" is being used as a pejorative here. There's nothing inherently bad about third-party testimony.
Third party testimony that is obtained through strong-arm tactics like filing a lawsuit against the guy, should be considered in doubt without other evidence that is provided.
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Third party testimony that is obtained through strong-arm tactics like filing a lawsuit against the guy, should be considered in doubt without other evidence that is provided.
I think your mistake here is in thinking this guy's testimony is the entirety of MLB's case. It's not. The documentation is the case. His testimony merely corroborates/supports/explains the documentation.
As in any judicial/quasi judicial proceeding, you need a person's testimony to introduce evidence, such as medical records.
So, for example, in a murder trial, you need a physician and/or medical examiner to testify as to the medical record regarding injuries and cause of death. You can't just turn in the autopsy report.
In this case, MLB needs Bosch to testify that the documents/records implicating the players are accurate and were produced contemporaneously to his company providing these players with certain substances.
As for the so-called "strong-arm tactics," what MLB is doing here is neither uncommon or inappropriate.
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As for the so-called "strong-arm tactics," what MLB is doing here is neither uncommon or inappropriate.
We'll see if the MLBPA agrees, particularly if MLB does try to go through with suspensions, which I think is far from a certainty. This strikes me as a huge risk where the relationship with the Union is concerned, lawsuits, etc. that's why I highly doubt there will be any suspensions handed out, nevermind them being served.
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Aren't most "witnesses"/informants flipped via strong arm tactics?
I mean, it's not like a lot of criminals suddenly have a change of heart and then rat our everybody they worked with.
They usually get caught, and the best way to save their own butt is to rat out their organization.
This seems like the same thing, right?
The problem with this is that the MLB can do nothing to Bosch. They can't strongarm him... they probably can compensate him financially... and he is in desperate need of cash. Wouldn't someone who is desperate for cash say pretty much anything to get that cash?
This is why there needs to be hard documentation (there probably isn't) that the 20 players named were actually sent PED's from Biogenesis.
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The problem with this is that the MLB can do nothing to Bosch. They can't strongarm him... they probably can compensate him financially... and he is in desperate need of cash. Wouldn't someone who is desperate for cash say pretty much anything to get that cash?
This is why there needs to be hard documentation (there probably isn't) that the 20 players named were actually sent PED's from Biogenesis.
That's fair.
Not all testimony is created equal.
But, strong-arming/rewarding an informant or witness isn't new. It's pretty common, and I've never heard anybody question the tactic as much as some people (not just this board) are now.
LOTS of criminals are convicted using testimony from witnesses/informants who are "encouraged" to testify.
DON'T YOU PEOPLE WATCH LAW AND ORDER?
EDIT: As a follow-up, Braun/player's union are welcome to argue that the guy is a liar and not a reputable witness/expert.
But, then my follow-up question would be: If he's so unreputable, why would you use him for consulting?
It's a double edged sword for Braun (at this point).
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We'll see if the MLBPA agrees, particularly if MLB does try to go through with suspensions, which I think is far from a certainty. This strikes me as a huge risk where the relationship with the Union is concerned, lawsuits, etc. that's why I highly doubt there will be any suspensions handed out, nevermind them being served.
Whether the MLBPA disagrees here is largely irrelevant. They don't have much real power to prevent the suspensions.
And I think you're mistaken if you believe the PA is going to upset two decades of labor peace for the sake of a small minority of its membership. The bulk of the PA's members don't feel sorry for them.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/06/05/mlb-biogenesis-tony-bosch-suspensions-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-peers/2393261/
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That's fair.
Not all testimony is created equal.
But, strong-arming/rewarding an informant or witness isn't new. It's pretty common, and I've never heard anybody question the tactic as much as some people (not just this board) are now.
LOTS of criminals are convicted using testimony from witnesses/informants who are "encouraged" to testify.
DON'T YOU PEOPLE WATCH LAW AND ORDER?
EDIT: As a follow-up, Braun/player's union are welcome to argue that the guy is a liar and not a reputable witness/expert.
But, then my follow-up question would be: If he's so unreputable, why would you use him for consulting?
It's a double edged sword for Braun (at this point).
It is and it isn't. When they were using him for consulting he was probably in business. If the guy hadn't tried to basically blackmail A-Rod for a pile of money and wasn't bankrupt I'd say his credibility would be much higher. In the world of the legal system I was taught that this is why juries decide things, not judges. :)
and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them. Now there is a real double edged sword.
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It is and it isn't. When they were using him for consulting he was probably in business. If the guy hadn't tried to basically blackmail A-Rod for a pile of money and wasn't bankrupt I'd say his credibility would be much higher. In the world of the legal system I was taught that this is why juries decide things, not judges. :)
and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them. Now there is a real double edged sword.
1. This won't be decided by a jury, or a judge for that matter.
2. Your point about credibility - though fair - would be far more relevant if the MLB case hung on Bosch's testimony. It doesn't. The case is built on medical records, documents, order forms, credit confirmations, invoices, shipping records, phone records, etc. Bosch will merely corroborate those records.
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1. This won't be decided by a jury, or a judge for that matter.
2. Your point about credibility - though fair - would be far more relevant if the MLB case hung on Bosch's testimony. It doesn't. The case is built on medical records, documents, order forms, credit confirmations, invoices, shipping records, phone records, etc. Bosch will merely corroborate those records.
1. I'm aware, it was a generalization of witnesses/rats
2. I've said as much. There will need to be hard evidence.
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Whether the MLBPA disagrees here is largely irrelevant. They don't have much real power to prevent the suspensions.
And I think you're mistaken if you believe the PA is going to upset two decades of labor peace for the sake of a small minority of its membership. The bulk of the PA's members don't feel sorry for them.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/06/05/mlb-biogenesis-tony-bosch-suspensions-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-peers/2393261/
You assume that these 20 are the extent of the membership that are taking PEDs. These folks are just the members that got caught, the amount actually cheating is very likely much larger.
As far as the strong arming, if you've committed a crime and you cut a deal for a lesser sentence that is totally different than an organization with virtually unlimited financing forcing you to defend a bogus lawsuit at the risk of complete financial ruin. The first is done within the legal structure of the government, the latter is a private enterprise inflicting itself on a citizen.
Also, the documentation you speak of is A) generated by said corroborating witness and B) "encrypted" meaning there is no 3rd party verification, it is literally Bosch's word that is what the documentation says.
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You assume that these 20 are the extent of the membership that are taking PEDs. These folks are just the members that got caught, the amount actually cheating is very likely much larger.
As far as the strong arming, if you've committed a crime and you cut a deal for a lesser sentence that is totally different than an organization with virtually unlimited financing forcing you to defend a bogus lawsuit at the risk of complete financial ruin. The first is done within the legal structure of the government, the latter is a private enterprise inflicting itself on a citizen.
Also, the documentation you speak of is A) generated by said corroborating witness and B) "encrypted" meaning there is no 3rd party verification, it is literally Bosch's word that is what the documentation says.
You are trying way to hard at this.
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and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them. Now there is a real double edged sword.
I know you are correct, but are we talking 1% of cases? 10%?
Let's face it, the legal system has been incentivizing testimonies for year. It's not a perfect science, but it's a tried and true method to get people talking.
I mean, otherwise, short of Ryan Braun having a needle hanging out of his arm, we're never going to know anything, are we?
With this said, the guys saying Braun did it isn't really enough. Need more of a paper trail.
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You are trying way to hard at this.
Out of curiosity what do you think I'm trying?
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It is and it isn't. When they were using him for consulting he was probably in business. If the guy hadn't tried to basically blackmail A-Rod for a pile of money and wasn't bankrupt I'd say his credibility would be much higher. In the world of the legal system I was taught that this is why juries decide things, not judges. :)
and FWIW a lot of criminals were put in jail by rats who had everything to gain from the situation and then years later DNA evidence exonerates them. Now there is a real double edged sword.
Remember when Jose Canseco was just a slimeball that was trying to get his name back in the public, so no one believed him?
Do you expect people that have sold illegal drugs to players to be choir boys? They are all dirtbags. You pretty much have to be one to get into that line of work.
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Perhaps you should learn how to read. It would be helpful.
Feel free to elaborate on your position.
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Feel free to elaborate on your position.
I did in the thread that you reference. I suggest you go there and read more carefully.
Hope this helps.
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I did in the thread that you reference. I suggest you go there and read more carefully.
Hope this helps.
I've read that thread carefully. Based on what you've said in that thread, I have trouble seeing how you reconcile your professed beliefs with what you've written there.
However, this is bordering on a taboo subject in this forum so perhaps best to just agree to disagree on this topic or discuss over pm.
Hope this helps.
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I've read that thread carefully. Based on what you've said in that thread, I have trouble seeing how you reconcile your professed beliefs with what you've written there.
Glad you are comfortable being so judgemental.
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Glad you are comfortable being so judgemental.
I fail to see what in that statement presents a judgement. To quote you--Perhaps you should learn how to read. That would be helpful.
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How does MLB have subpoena powers? I read this morning that they issued subpoenas to FedEx etc. but I had thought only the government has that authority.
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I fail to see what in that statement presents a judgement. To quote you--Perhaps you should learn how to read. That would be helpful.
You have implied in two threads that I am not really a Christian. Oh well....maybe one day I could live up to your standards of Christianity. But that would require me to care.
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You have implied in two threads that I am not really a Christian. Oh well....maybe one day I could live up to your standards of Christianity. But that would require me to care.
Nah, you just aren't his kind of Christian.
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Nah, you just aren't his kind of Christian.
I'm good with that.
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You have implied in two threads that I am not really a Christian. Oh well....maybe one day I could live up to your standards of Christianity. But that would require me to care.
I have never tried imply that and that was certainly not my intent as I have no place to make that type of judgement.
However, I am still curious how you reconcile being a Christian and placing the law of man above a commandment, logically that doesn't make sense to me. You've said it was since your in man's society, but as Christians aren't we all in God's society?
I think there can be a logical debate on this, but if you don't care to elaborate and want to keep making snarky comments, feel free.
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How does MLB have subpoena powers? I read this morning that they issued subpoenas to FedEx etc. but I had thought only the government has that authority.
If they've got a lawsuit pending, they have subpoena powers. In every jurisdiction I've practiced in, any attorney handling a civil lawsuit has the ability to subpoena non-parties. In essence, the litigants are using the court to issue their own subpoena.