Hi all,
I'm pretty new to the board (see number of posts) and was hoping some of you "old timers" could shed some light on question I have.
There is a lot of conversation around JJJ and his impact next year. However, Buzz never seems to play freshman all that much. Why do we think JJJ will be different? this is not meant to be a loaded question, just curious.
Thanks all!
That is not neceassily true. Gardner played a lot as a freshmen. Blue played a lot as a freshmen. Both Smith and Maymon were playing a fair amount before they transfered at mid-season their freshmen year. Steve Taylor played and would of played a lot more, if Lockett had not transferred in. Derrick Wilson and Mayo played a fair amount as freshmen. The limiting factor in almost all of the above cases was the fact that there were experienced players in front of them. The freshmen that did not play much generally were weak on defense.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on May 22, 2013, 10:04:08 PM
Hi all,
I'm pretty new to the board (see number of posts) and was hoping some of you "old timers" could shed some light on question I have.
There is a lot of conversation around JJJ and his impact next year. However, Buzz never seems to play freshman all that much. Why do we think JJJ will be different? this is not meant to be a loaded question, just curious.
Thanks all!
First step is to change your name to Warrior91114. ;)
Bilsu has it nailed.
What bilsu said but to answer your other question many people just believe JaJuan is one of the most talented incoming recruits we have gotten recently. He seems to have a very polished offensive game. Unlike Vander in HS, JJJ has more of a polished shot and smooth offensive game. It appears he possesses the same athleticism too.
Can't forget about Duane Wilson's potential impact too. It's always speculation, so who knows. This recruiting class is potentially the most unpredictable we've had. Any one of these guys could step up or step back.
I just think we are all getting our hopes up too much. They are great recruits...but I dont see that much of an impact like some suggest. i still think they play decent minutes though
Freshman are what they are, there freshman. The upper class run the show, barely does any freshman come in on an experienced team and lead the team, particularly at guard. Butch
Lee the #1 recruit out of New York averaged 8.7 points as a freshman. I think that was great for that team, but in no way shape or form was he going to lead that team. In saying that,
Duane Wilson has a chance to be special, if he is and the upper class buy into it, he might and I am saying might average double figures.
Quote from: GoldenZebra on May 22, 2013, 10:46:00 PM
I just think we are all getting our hopes up too much. They are great recruits...but I dont see that much of an impact like some suggest. i still think they play decent minutes though
I agree, I would be surprised if any of the freshman averaged above 6-7ppg. I hope Duane Wilson comes in and establishes himself as the starter, but that is doubtful. I expect this class to be special a couple years down the road, but there is always that transition period.
Quote from: flash on May 22, 2013, 11:30:45 PM
I agree, I would be surprised if any of the freshman averaged above 6-7ppg. I hope Duane Wilson comes in and establishes himself as the starter, but that is doubtful. I expect this class to be special a couple years down the road, but there is always that transition period.
If we do not get 6 to7 ppg from some of the newbies, we could be in trouble. 12-15ppg from Ox and same from J. Wilson are likely, but we are not going to get any scoring from Anderson, De. Wilson, Thomas or Otule. Add the numbers:
OX: say 13ppg
J. Wilson: say 14
Otule: say 6
We will need 8-10ppg from McKay and hopefully another 8ppg from Taylor. That gives us about 50ppg from those guys. To get to the next level, we will needabout 22-25 ppg from the rest. It is doable, but JJJ and or Du. Wilson will need to step up. Face it, we were offensively challenged quite a bit last year.
BC Hoopster
Agree on your Butch comment, but times have changed. Many of the elite programs live off playing top recruits. AAU has changed the game and the very top recruits are more prepared to transition to college bll than when Butch was freshman. IMO for us to move to next level we need to recruit kids that are ready to play from day one. That said, you only need one impact freshman every year or two. I believe we will have two impact players at guard position this year.
In addition, Steve Taylor could have and should have received more minutes this year. He had potential to be an upper lvel freshman this past year. Not going to argue with Buzz's thought process because it works, but great coaches make adjustments as they mature as coach. Buzz has ability to roll dice with young guys now because he has a strong national reputation. This is the year we see our young guys make immediate impact IMO.
Quote from: goldeneagle91114 on May 22, 2013, 10:04:08 PM
However, Buzz never seems to play freshman all that much.
I get where you're coming from with this statement, but the issue isn't that they're freshman, it's that they're not ready. Buzz would have no problem playing LeBron or Melo as freshmen just as he has no problem not playing a junior or senior. When it comes to PT, age is just a number. It comes down to talent, in-game approach, and an understanding of how to play within the system. Some freshmen just get it. If any of these freshmen get it, they'll play and have a major impact on this team.
The key is where will the points come from, and I'd be amazed if any of the freshmen put up more than 5ppg, or if all together they add more than 10. Where will points CEO from?
Center: 20ppg, 15 Gardner, 5 Otoule
PF: 13 ppg, Taylor 8, McKay 5
SF: 20ppg Anderson 5, Wilson 15
SG: 10 ppg mayo 5, jjj 5
PG: 5 ppg Wilson 2, Du Wilson 3
That's 68, what they averaged last year.
Quote from: jtbh6b1 on May 23, 2013, 09:11:06 AM
The key is where will the points come from, and I'd be amazed if any of the freshmen put up more than 5ppg, or if all together they add more than 10. Where will points CEO from?
Center: 20ppg, 15 Gardner, 5 Otoule
PF: 13 ppg, Taylor 8, McKay 5
SF: 20ppg Anderson 5, Wilson 15
SG: 10 ppg mayo 5, jjj 5
PG: 5 ppg Wilson 2, Du Wilson 3
That's 68, what they averaged last year.
So surprised that you have them averaging 13? And I'm sorry, but Mayo is not going to score more than JJJ next year.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 07:02:41 AM
BC Hoopster
Agree on your Butch comment, but times have changed. Many of the elite programs live off playing top recruits. AAU has changed the game and the very top recruits are more prepared to transition to college bll than when Butch was freshman. IMO for us to move to next level we need to recruit kids that are ready to play from day one. That said, you only need one impact freshman every year or two. I believe we will have two impact players at guard position this year.
In addition, Steve Taylor could have and should have received more minutes this year. He had potential to be an upper lvel freshman this past year. Not going to argue with Buzz's thought process because it works, but great coaches make adjustments as they mature as coach. Buzz has ability to roll dice with young guys now because he has a strong national reputation. This is the year we see our young guys make immediate impact IMO.
I agree with your statement about the players today being better than years past, they are more prepared than ever. With Duane Wilson living here, I am sure going to the Al earlier
than most new freshman will prepare him to play with his new teammates. That is why I believe he might be special. Offensively, he is probably there, Defensively, that is another question.
Steve Taylor offensively was fine, will play ahead of Juan in my estimation but the knee injury might hold him back. His D at times was suspect. Freshman who stay 4 years have to go
to school, the one and done do not, nor ever care to graduate, they take a few cupcake courses in fall, and then coast. I do not see any of the MU kids as one and done. So there is
a bigger transition for them, it is school, away from home for the first time, new friends, and basketball. It is a lot to take in as a freshman.
Quote from: bilsu on May 22, 2013, 10:19:02 PM
That is not neceassily true. Gardner played a lot as a freshmen. Blue played a lot as a freshmen. Both Smith and Maymon were playing a fair amount before they transfered at mid-season their freshmen year. Steve Taylor played and would of played a lot more, if Lockett had not transferred in. Derrick Wilson and Mayo played a fair amount as freshmen. The limiting factor in almost all of the above cases was the fact that there were experienced players in front of them. The freshmen that did not play much generally were weak on defense.
Actually, I guess it depends on how one defines "a lot." Gardner averaged 9 minutes as a freshman -- less than a quarter of each game. Blue averaged 19 -- less than half of each game. I don't consider that "a lot," but maybe some do. Todd Mayo played more as a freshman (21 mpg) than anyone since the Amigos.
One of the interesting things for me will be how willing Buzz is to use the freshmen next season. He has a strong sense of loyalty and a strong feeling that kids should "earn it." I agree with those, but I also wonder if he has been a little stubborn at times. Lots of Scoopers were begging for more Steve Taylor last season, that's for sure.
Buzz is a coach and coaches want to win. I trust that if Derrick Wilson isn't getting it done, Duane Wilson will at least get a real chance -- just as Mayo did his freshman year when other more-tenured guards were struggling.
This will be an interesting experiment. We all are thrilled about having a top-10 recruiting class. Will it affect our ability to attract top recruits in the future if Buzz doesn't play the 4-star freshmen (and hopefully 5-stars) as much as other coaches do?
Believe me, I'm not saying Buzz is doing it "wrong." I'm just saying recruits watch this stuff and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Dom James Freshman:
2005-06 31g 32.5min 15.3pts 43.1FG% 30.13% 64.1FT% 5.4A 4.5RBs 0.4BLKs 1.6STLs
It can be done, he was the last recruit ranked as highly as JJJ and the minutes will be available. There is a reason Juan tried to transfer, and JJJ is that reason.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on May 23, 2013, 09:47:58 AM
There is a reason Juan tried to transfer, and JJJ is that reason.
You could not be more wrong about this.
Quote from: jtbh6b1 on May 23, 2013, 09:11:06 AM
The key is where will the points come from, and I'd be amazed if any of the freshmen put up more than 5ppg, or if all together they add more than 10. Where will points CEO from?
Center: 20ppg, 15 Gardner, 5 Otoule
PF: 13 ppg, Taylor 8, McKay 5
SF: 20ppg Anderson 5, Wilson 15
SG: 10 ppg mayo 5, jjj 5
PG: 5 ppg Wilson 2, Du Wilson 3
That's 68, what they averaged last year.
And 68 did not get us to the next level. Need to score a consistent 70 plus. Doubt if we will get 200PPG out of SF, unless Wilson has a monster year. Do not believe that Anderson will verage 5ppg. We need to get better than 10 ppg at 2G and should with JJJ and Mayo. Still think Burton will get some points, and lekely Mc Kay wiil average more than 5.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on May 23, 2013, 09:47:58 AM
Dom James Freshman:
2005-06 31g 32.5min 15.3pts 43.1FG% 30.13% 64.1FT% 5.4A 4.5RBs 0.4BLKs 1.6STLs
It can be done, he was the last recruit ranked as highly as JJJ and the minutes will be available. There is a reason Juan tried to transfer, and JJJ is that reason.
The Three Amigos were better than everyone else on the team their frosh year with the exception of Steve Novak.
Frosh under Buzz get major minutes if they can contribute as well as an upperclassman or provide something that the team needs. MU has lots of good players up and down the roster.
Finding minutes for everyone who can play is a high-quality problem.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 23, 2013, 10:01:43 AM
And 68 did not get us to the next level. Need to score a consistent 70 plus. Doubt if we will get 200PPG out of SF, unless Wilson has a monster year. Do not believe that Anderson will verage 5ppg. We need to get better than 10 ppg at 2G and should with JJJ and Mayo. Still think Burton will get some points, and lekely Mc Kay wiil average more than 5.
I think Juan will average two 3-pointers a game with another basket or two tossed in. He will be a solid 8-point guy.
With regard to the team scoring.....it will be up because we drop some of the toughest competition in the conference.
We have 5 newcomers and it reasonable to expect any two of the 5 to be impactful new players. Beyond that it becomes a matter of playing time. There are too many returning veterans to expect all the newcomers to get significant playing time. I believe the two most talented players are JJJ and McKay. They also are the two players that I worry the most about having the physical strength to play high major division one basketball. Also, if you look at history form the Crean era on an impactful freshmen average about 6 points a game. Diener, Hayward, Novak, Blue etc. were all around that number Butler average about 6 pts his first year. Of course there are others that have scored more, but 6 points for a new player that is going to be a star in future years is pretty average.
Quote from: MUfan12 on May 23, 2013, 09:56:03 AM
You could not be more wrong about this.
Exactly. Seriously if people don't know what is going on, don't speak as if you do.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 23, 2013, 10:01:43 AM
And 68 did not get us to the next level. Need to score a consistent 70 plus.
Really? That whole 2 extra ppg is what is going to get us there?
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 23, 2013, 10:39:30 AM
Really? That whole 2 extra ppg is what is going to get us there?
Yes, scoring more points will win us more games. We had no scoring against Syracuse in Elite 8. We had 46 points in that game--poor offense. More points would have taken us to the next level. Not that hard to register, is it Skink? I know you get your jollies trying to gig me. life is good, isn't it?
Quote from: willie warrior on May 23, 2013, 10:56:02 AM
Yes, scoring more points will win us more games. We had no scoring against Syracuse in Elite 8. We had 46 points in that game--poor offense. More points would have taken us to the next level. Not that hard to register, is it Skink? I know you get your jollies trying to gig me. life is good, isn't it?
Um, we had 39 points against Syracuse. Had Gardner not tossed up a three with 19 seconds left, Marquette would have had, well, I'll let you do the math.....
Quote from: willie warrior on May 23, 2013, 10:56:02 AM
Yes, scoring more points will win us more games. We had no scoring against Syracuse in Elite 8. We had 46 points in that game--poor offense. More points would have taken us to the next level. Not that hard to register, is it Skink? I know you get your jollies trying to gig me. life is good, isn't it?
Back to your original statement: "And 68 did not get us to the next level." That is factually incorrect.
Marquette PPG under Buzz:
2012-13: 68 (E8)
2011-12: 75 (S16)
2010-11: 75 (S16)
2009-10: 73 (64)
2008-09: 78!!! (32)
So 68 ppg actually *did* get us to the next level. Huh. I have a theory on that...it's called "defense." You can win basketball games many ways. And Buzz's best defensive team got him further than he has ever gone as coach.
And back to the original topic, the freshmen will play when they show they can defend.
Scoring points is the name of the game today. MU did not have good defense last year, they had a bad offense that took up time. Styles like Louisville is the way to play today. Buzz now has athletes that are basketball players and it will translate to points moving forward. Wilson and JJJ are the keys going forward. Presuure D and pushing the ball up court will win more games than bad half court offense with no scorers.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on May 23, 2013, 09:47:58 AM
Dom James Freshman:
2005-06 31g 32.5min 15.3pts 43.1FG% 30.13% 64.1FT% 5.4A 4.5RBs 0.4BLKs 1.6STLs
It can be done, he was the last recruit ranked as highly as JJJ and the minutes will be available. There is a reason Juan tried to transfer, and JJJ is that reason.
Dom James was Big East rookie of the year.
Do you really expect every recruit ranked better than #50 to come in and be THAT good?
(I'll give you a hint, it's not possible).
Guns
Aside from top 10 guys the recruiting numbers for next 50 vary a great deal. As discussed on here before if JJJ, Wilson or Burton signed with Kentucky they likely would be graded much higher. Our two guards have very high upside and it will be seen on the court next season.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 11:21:11 AM
Scoring points is the name of the game today. MU did not have good defense last year, they had a bad offense that took up time. Styles like Louisville is the way to play today. Buzz now has athletes that are basketball players and it will translate to points moving forward. Wilson and JJJ are the keys going forward. Presuure D and pushing the ball up court will win more games than bad half court offense with no scorers.
"Bad half court offense?"
They lead the BE in conference games in points per possession, FG% and efficiency. And this from a team that was 14th in the conference in 3PG%...that's pretty incredible IMO.
Why are we trying to find every way possible to bad-mouth was was arguably Buzz's most successful team? There was just one thing that team didn't do well...shoot from the outside. Outside of that they were hardly a "bad offensive team."
Terror
I think calling it a bad half court offense was a compliment. Love the team last year but painful to watch many games. We had two games with more turnovers than baskets scored. It was a great success last year and the half court offense had little to do with it. IMO you will see a far better brand of offense in upcoming season.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 11:43:14 AM
Terror
I think calling it a bad half court offense was a compliment. Love the team last year but painful to watch many games. We had two games with more turnovers than baskets scored. It was a great success last year and the half court offense had little to do with it. IMO you will see a far better brand of offense in upcoming season.
Earlier you said that they weren't very good defensively...now you say that the half court offense had little to do with it...and we know they can't shoot.
So exactly how did this team win the Big East championship and get to the Elite 8???
And I think we should be a little careful about saying this team will have a "far better brand of offense" next year. This is a team that has lost its starting PG and its leading scorer. Honestly, I think next year's team will look a lot more like last year's team than people realize.
Terror
We won the BE and went to E8 because of a group of over achieving players. That coupled with Buzz's chip on the shoulder edge proved to be a huge success. Be careful about next year predictions of style? We have upgraded at PG BIG time, have a TRUE SG and added length. There is zero doubt in my mind that next years team will provide a far more entertaining and effective style on both sides of the court. I appreciate what last years team did, but often it was very hard on the eyes.
Last year the team went well past expectations of 99.9% of fans, let alone basketball experts. Fully comfortable saying last years team was not a great basketball team and more comfortable saying next years team will be very entertaining. Fast, athletic guys that can score trumps slow guys that cannot score.
Quote from: jtbh6b1 on May 23, 2013, 09:11:06 AM
The key is where will the points come from, and I'd be amazed if any of the freshmen put up more than 5ppg, or if all together they add more than 10. Where will points CEO from?
Center: 20ppg, 15 Gardner, 5 Otoule
PF: 13 ppg, Taylor 8, McKay 5
SF: 20ppg Anderson 5, Wilson 15
SG: 10 ppg mayo 5, jjj 5
PG: 5 ppg Wilson 2, Du Wilson 3
That's 68, what they averaged last year.
You would really be "amazed" if Duane Wilson and Johnson average more than 5ppg??? With the minutes available at PG and SG, i expect them to do that no problem.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
We one the BE and went to E8 because of a group of over achieving players. That coupled with Buzz's chip on the shoulder edge proved to be a huge success.
You don't win basketball games by simply jogging onto the floor and playing better than people thought you would. You win because you put the ball in the basket, and prevent the other team from doing the same. At some point you have to look at *how* they managed to do that. It isn't about hustle, chips on shoulders and over achievement. Marquette won by relentlessly attacking the basket both in transition and in the half-court offense. And despite all the turn-overs, was still pretty efficient considering they had little in the way of outside shooters.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
Be careful about next year predictions of style? We have upgraded at PG BIG time, have a TRUE SG and added length. There is zero doubt in my mind that next years team will provide a far more entertaining and effective style on both sides of the court.
We've upgraded the PG "BIG time?" We are replacing a two year starter with a back up who hasn't exactly looked stellar, and a freshman who hasn't played a minute of college basketball. It very well could be argued that this position has actually been downgraded, much less upgraded...and way much less than "upgraded BIG time."
And who is the true SG we have? Another freshman.
You are looking WAY too much at potential to base your judgements.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
Last year the team went well past expectations of 99.9% of fans, let alone basketball experts. Fully comfortable saying last years team was not a great basketball team and more comfortable saying next years team will be very entertaining.
Again, last year's team was Buzz's most accomplished team. So "not a great basketball team" compared to whom? And I don't give a flying f*ck how "entertaining" some team is...I want them to win. So yeah, Mo Acker's senior team was plenty "entertaining" because they shot so well, but in the end they were a first round flameout.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:01:23 PM
Fast, athletic guys that can score trumps slow guys that cannot score.
Sure. But is this supposed to be a statement of next year's team v. last year's team? If so, I think it is a very poor statement. We have no idea if next year's team will be made up of "fast, athletic guys that can score," and last year's team certainly was not made up of "slow guys that cannot score."
Terror
Politely disagree with your idea of good basketball. One question, if we had Kentucky's recruiting class would you make expectations off potential? You have your idea of what makes a great team and I have mine. Will add if you think last years team had to do it over and they would be at E8 I think you are dillusional. Your comment on Acker's senior season is beyond crazy. Would hope you hold the programs talent level today a tad higher than Acker's senior season. As for PG, trust me Duane Wilson will be driving that bus and it will be in high gear.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:31:03 PM
Politely disagree with your idea of good basketball.
So you would rather be "entertained" than win?
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:31:03 PM
Will add if you think last years team had to do it over and they would be at E8 I think you are dillusional.
Why wouldn't they? And why do you keep bad-mouthing Buzz's most accomplished team? And arguably the second most accomplished Marquette team since 1977?
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:31:03 PM
One question, if we had Kentucky's recruiting class would you make expectations off potential?
But we don't have Kentucky's recruiting class...that's my point.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:31:03 PM
Your comment on Acker's senior season is beyond crazy. Would hope you hold the programs talent level today a tad higher than Acker's senior season.
Then my point flew over your head. I would rather win and advance more than watching a high scoring "entertaining" game. I was simply comparing the success v. "entertainment" factor of the two respective teams.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:31:03 PM
As for PG, trust me Duane Wilson will be driving that bus and it will be in high gear.
I can see the "What is wrong with Duane Wilson??" posts already...
Terror
Trust me I LOVE winning.
Most accomplished team since 1977? Come on!!
What would our recruiting class rankings be if we were Kentucky? Every guy would be ranked much higher. Potential is potential.
I did not find Acker's team entertaining at all. Missed my point, you can be entertaining and still win. Think Louisville showed that.
This fan never had "What is wrong with Blue post" so doubt on the Wilson posts.
If you think I am bad mouthing Buzz or team you are off your rocker. That said, I do have pretty solid of our basketball history and feel confident in my appraisal of last year.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:48:39 PM
If you think I am bad mouthing Buzz or team you are off your rocker.
Oh no? From this very thread....
"MU did not have good defense last year, they had a bad offense that took up time."
"Fully comfortable saying last years team was not a great basketball team"
"Will add if you think last years team had to do it over and they would be at E8 I think you are dillusional."
Terror
Give me a break. I stated last year was huge success and kudo's to all involved. My comments on the team you posted would be similar to my saying "my kid has a bad temper"...is that bad mouthing my kid? My comment on defense was based off you saying it was Buzz's best defensive team, which stat wise maybe correct but in reality the previous two seasons were better defensively.
You two should get your own thread......
Buzz's most successful team last year? Yes. Buzz's most talented team last year? No. They don't have to be the same team. But I'd rather watch the most successful team. Hopefully it's also the most talented, but I don't want to watch the most talented team go up in flames in the first round of the NCAAs. It's much more "entertaining" and much more rewarding to watch the team that is successful and that wins.
Litehouse
Agreed 100%. Terror would not be in top 30 posters I would want to share thread with, but sound advice!!
Yes, need your own thread. Ha! Sorry Goose, but I'm siding with Terror here. But I am cautiously optimistic about the newcomers as well. With that said, it doesn't matter what I think either.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 01:07:07 PM
My comment on defense was based off you saying it was Buzz's best defensive team, which stat wise maybe correct but in reality the previous two seasons were better defensively.
Actually, in looking at the stats, 2011-12 is the only one I would say was better.
2012-13, they were second in Opponents Efficiency, PPP, PPG and FG%. All behind 2011-12.
I agree with Terror here, it kind of sounded like you were bad mouthing the idea of adapting a style of basketball to win. I found Acker's senior season team to be very fun to watch (though it's not Acker's team it was Hayward's). I agree that the most talented teams don't need to be the most successful the DJO/Crowder and Big 3 teams were definitely the most talented and yet neither reached their potential. In the end I'd rather watch our team from last year go to the E8 over our fastest most talented teams flame out.
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 12:48:39 PM
Terror
Trust me I LOVE winning.
Most accomplished team since 1977? Come on!!
What would our recruiting class rankings be if we were Kentucky? Every guy would be ranked much higher. Potential is potential.
I did not find Acker's team entertaining at all. Missed my point, you can be entertaining and still win. Think Louisville showed that.
This fan never had "What is wrong with Blue post" so doubt on the Wilson posts.
If you think I am bad mouthing Buzz or team you are off your rocker. That said, I do have pretty solid of our basketball history and feel confident in my appraisal of last year.
I could buy the argument that if MU class had signed with Kentucky, North Carolina, Kansas or Duke the players would have been ranked higher. However, that is fools gold, because as far as I know North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas and Duke had no interest in any of our recruits or if they did they were plan C or D. Kentucky signed 8 players all ranked significantly higher than JJJ.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on May 23, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
Um, we had 39 points against Syracuse. Had Gardner not tossed up a three with 19 seconds left, Marquette would have had, well, I'll let you do the math.....
Thanks for making my point. 39 or 46 demonstrates our offensive challenges, and we lost Blue's 14 plus another about 16 with Lockett and Cadougan.
We will need to score much more to go further and IMO the newbies will need to make up a lot of that, because I don't believe that Otule, Anderson, Thomas and De. Wilson will upgrade much in scoring. Hope they prove that wrong.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 23, 2013, 01:58:47 PM
Thanks for making my point. 39 or 46 demonstrates our offensive challenges, and we lost Blue's 14 plus another about 16 with Lockett and Cadougan.
We will need to score much more to go further and IMO the newbies will need to make up a lot of that, because I don't believe that Otule, Anderson, Thomas and De. Wilson will upgrade much in scoring. Hope they prove that wrong.
One of the reasons we scored so little agianst Syracuse is that we were not agressive enough. There were to many times in that game where we were forcing up bad shots, because the 35 second clock was running out. Sure the defense had a lot to do with it, but we could of taken better bad shots before the ones we ended up taking.
Quote from: bilsu on May 23, 2013, 02:06:51 PM
One of the reasons we scored so little agianst Syracuse is that we were not agressive enough. There were to many times in that game where we were forcing up bad shots, because the 35 second clock was running out. Sure the defense had a lot to do with it, but we could of taken better bad shots before the ones we ended up taking.
And this was the same MU team that scored 74 against the same Syracuse team just a few weeks earlier.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 23, 2013, 11:08:07 AM
Back to your original statement: "And 68 did not get us to the next level." That is factually incorrect.
Marquette PPG under Buzz:
2012-13: 68 (E8)
2011-12: 75 (S16)
2010-11: 75 (S16)
2009-10: 73 (64)
2008-09: 78!!! (32)
So 68 ppg actually *did* get us to the next level. Huh. I have a theory on that...it's called "defense." You can win basketball games many ways. And Buzz's best defensive team got him further than he has ever gone as coach.
And back to the original topic, the freshmen will play when they show they can defend.
Exactly. Buzz always talks about being able to trust the guys he puts on the floor. He is not saying he wants to trust their jump shot.
He wants to be confident that they will be in proper position and defend well.
Boy, you'd think that a team making the Elite 8 would lead their fans to realize that they were better than people expected, including us. We didn't luck our way into it. We didn't back into it. We shared the Big East title because we took it. Because we were unbeatable at home and because we won some games away from home. We didn't get to the Elite 8 because we were lucky, we got there because against Davidson the shots finally fell in the final minute. If we shoot our average from 3, we wouldn't have needed a last minute comeback. We beat Butler because we were tougher and better. And we took a Miami team that many had as their trendy national title pick out behind the woodshed.
Why is it everyone still thinks this team wasn't very good? This was all just guys playing hard? No, they finally played to their potential, then had an awful game against Syracuse. It happens. It happened to Syracuse when they only scored 39 against Georgetown in the season finale.
Vander Blue was an all-conference player. Jamil Wilson is really good. Trent Lockett was a mini-Crowder in the way he did everything on the court. Gardner is a beast. Otule is so much better than everyone thought not just on defense but also on offense. And yet still we hear it was effort. Give me a break. This team was very, very good. This team had numerous future pros. I'd guess we had 2-3 future NBA players and more pros that will play around the world. Give this team some damn credit. Maybe it was 2 months ago, but they sure as hell earned it. Especially from their own "fans".
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 23, 2013, 07:03:13 PM
Boy, you'd think that a team making the Elite 8 would lead their fans to realize that they were better than people expected, including us. We didn't luck our way into it. We didn't back into it. We shared the Big East title because we took it. Because we were unbeatable at home and because we won some games away from home. We didn't get to the Elite 8 because we were lucky, we got there because against Davidson the shots finally fell in the final minute. If we shoot our average from 3, we wouldn't have needed a last minute comeback. We beat Butler because we were tougher and better. And we took a Miami team that many had as their trendy national title pick out behind the woodshed.
Why is it everyone still thinks this team wasn't very good? This was all just guys playing hard? No, they finally played to their potential, then had an awful game against Syracuse. It happens. It happened to Syracuse when they only scored 39 against Georgetown in the season finale.
Vander Blue was an all-conference player. Jamil Wilson is really good. Trent Lockett was a mini-Crowder in the way he did everything on the court. Gardner is a beast. Otule is so much better than everyone thought not just on defense but also on offense. And yet still we hear it was effort. Give me a break. This team was very, very good. This team had numerous future pros. I'd guess we had 2-3 future NBA players and more pros that will play around the world. Give this team some damn credit. Maybe it was 2 months ago, but they sure as hell earned it. Especially from their own "fans".
We did win because we got some breaks, but that's OK. Even the best teams need some luck and some friendly bounces. And we did win because we worked hard. Lots of teams are good, but when a good team also out-works its opponent, it deserves to win. We shouldn't feel we have to apologize for being labeled hard-working.
I agree with everything you say here except I'm not sure where you're finding the 2-3 NBA players on last year's team. I know from other posts that you think Vander is an NBA lock. I'm guessing Jamil is your other "sure thing"? Beyond that ... ?
brew, your stuff is always uplifting and positive, and I really appreciate that. You certainly were more up -- and more right -- than most about the 2012-13 Gold!
Referring to Lockett as a "mini Jae Crowder" is more then a stretch......way more. Lockett was a role player....Crowder was BE player of the year and a 2nd team all american.....that like comparing Joe Chapman to Wade or close to it.....
MU had a great year.....could very easily have been out in the first round instead of going to the elite 8 which may have changed the perception just a bit........
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 23, 2013, 07:03:13 PM
Boy, you'd think that a team making the Elite 8 would lead their fans to realize that they were better than people expected, including us. We didn't luck our way into it. We didn't back into it. We shared the Big East title because we took it. Because we were unbeatable at home and because we won some games away from home. We didn't get to the Elite 8 because we were lucky, we got there because against Davidson the shots finally fell in the final minute. If we shoot our average from 3, we wouldn't have needed a last minute comeback. We beat Butler because we were tougher and better. And we took a Miami team that many had as their trendy national title pick out behind the woodshed.
Why is it everyone still thinks this team wasn't very good? This was all just guys playing hard? No, they finally played to their potential, then had an awful game against Syracuse. It happens. It happened to Syracuse when they only scored 39 against Georgetown in the season finale.
Vander Blue was an all-conference player. Jamil Wilson is really good. Trent Lockett was a mini-Crowder in the way he did everything on the court. Gardner is a beast. Otule is so much better than everyone thought not just on defense but also on offense. And yet still we hear it was effort. Give me a break. This team was very, very good. This team had numerous future pros. I'd guess we had 2-3 future NBA players and more pros that will play around the world. Give this team some damn credit. Maybe it was 2 months ago, but they sure as hell earned it. Especially from their own "fans".
Excellent post! I can't add to this. I agree 100% they made their luck by playing hard at the right time. And if they played any other team besides Syracuse like even Buzz hinted at and knew they would have gone to the Final Four.
They played several times! It was a horrible matching at that time. They were beat going into that game because Boheim knew us too well.
If they had anyone who could shoot with confidence they would have got to the Final Four. This year, there is hope that they would not be any worse then last year.
That is just common sense, not irrational to think that at all. They lost almost no one from last years team they cannot or have not replaced talent or skill wise and you have the unknown in heart and desire and toughness you cannot measure now, but you have 5 guys who might be exceptional in that.
I want to be cautiously optimistic but I am flat out charged up for the possibilities of this team for the next 2-3 on the National Title stage...
Quote from: brandx on May 23, 2013, 06:15:57 PM
Exactly. Buzz always talks about being able to trust the guys he puts on the floor. He is not saying he wants to trust their jump shot.
He wants to be confident that they will be in proper position and defend well.
That will change when you bring in better scorers and shooters. That will change.
They may have better offensive guys this year then defenders. The M.O might be this teams offense and they might have to be creative on defense.
This is another reason why I think Juan Anderson starts...
Quote from: willie warrior on May 23, 2013, 01:58:47 PM
Thanks for making my point. 39 or 46 demonstrates our offensive challenges, and we lost Blue's 14 plus another about 16 with Lockett and Cadougan.
We will need to score much more to go further and IMO the newbies will need to make up a lot of that, because I don't believe that Otule, Anderson, Thomas and De. Wilson will upgrade much in scoring. Hope they prove that wrong.
What?????????? What are you...lol, this is crazy. You won't have to worry about scoring with this group. I have no idea what in the world you are talking. That will be their strength this year.
The guys who left can't score! You got beat by Cuse' because it was a bad matchup to play them at that juncture in the Tournament.
When you beat Butler and Miami, you can score. But next year you will have to guard them. And if they get the system down look out.
I don't think many of you know or realize how big DEPTH and having a bench of switchables is.
There is no way you can defend that if all the guys have around the same ability and are locked in like this team seems to be. That is why Lousiville won it all.
If they stay healthy with key players in Buzz's 9-10 man rotation and really jell as a unit this team will wear you down!
Impossible to defend or contend on the college level with so many teams different from year to year.
Hi everyone,
Just visiting. I think you have a very strong team for next year and I think the Big East will be a great conference. Your RPI will be very strong because the competition in your conference will be very strong. I do my own bracketology and I think you win the Big East next year. Good luck with your season.
www.explorertownbracketologist.com
Thanks, I also think we will win the Big East next year. Where Buzz's record needs to improve is the conference tournament. Our record the last two years was 53-17 (very good), 28-8 in Big East (excellent), 5-2 in NCAA's (very good) and 0-2 in conference tournament (horrible).
Quote from: Goose on May 23, 2013, 01:07:07 PM
Terror
Give me a break. I stated last year was huge success and kudo's to all involved. My comments on the team you posted would be similar to my saying "my kid has a bad temper"...is that bad mouthing my kid?
The equivalent would be your kid graduating from high school with a 3.8 GPA and you saying "you know, he really isn't all that smart, he just got lucky with some teachers who liked him."
I especially don't understand why you would call people "delusional" who don't believe that this team could repeat last year's performance if they had to do it over. Why couldn't they repeat the performance???
Quote from: Vasalos on May 23, 2013, 09:12:06 PM
Your RPI will be very strong because the competition in your conference will be very strong.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Quote from: MU82 on May 23, 2013, 07:33:20 PM
I agree with everything you say here except I'm not sure where you're finding the 2-3 NBA players on last year's team. I know from other posts that you think Vander is an NBA lock. I'm guessing Jamil is your other "sure thing"? Beyond that ... ?
Not sure why you quoted "sure thing" as that was never said in Brew's post. He did say "I'd guess we had 2-3 future NBA players". "I'd guess" is quite a bit different than "sure thing"
If he thinks Vander is an NBA'er (I personally don't think so, but hopes he makes it) then I would say Jamil and Steve Taylor would be another two.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 24, 2013, 08:08:10 AM
The equivalent would be your kid graduating from high school with a 3.8 GPA and you saying "you know, he really isn't all that smart, he just got lucky with some teachers who liked him."
I especially don't understand why you would call people "delusional" who don't believe that this team could repeat last year's performance if they had to do it over. Why couldn't they repeat the performance???
Speaking just to the NCAA tournament performance, the comeback win against Davidson was
highly improbable. Would that be repeated? If not, would they be a NCAA "flameout" as you called the team Acker's senior year?
Quote from: WarriorInDC on May 24, 2013, 08:17:49 AM
Not sure why you quoted "sure thing" as that was never said in Brew's post. He did say "I'd guess we had 2-3 future NBA players". "I'd guess" is quite a bit different than "sure thing"
If he thinks Vander is an NBA'er (I personally don't think so, but hopes he makes it) then I would say Jamil and Steve Taylor would be another two.
Fair enough. I didn't mean to misrepresent.
I don't think any of them are NBA players, certainly not long-term NBAers, but I hope I'm wrong. And I still like brew's positive energy!
Quote from: LittleMurs on May 24, 2013, 08:21:23 AM
Speaking just to the NCAA tournament performance, the comeback win against Davidson was highly improbable. Would that be repeated? If not, would they be a NCAA "flameout" as you called the team Acker's senior year?
If they played Davidson 10 games, they would beat them 8 or 9 times. I never said that they would have to repeat the last minute comeback every time.
I think first round games are iffy. You often get the champion of a non-high major conference who is use to winning and has nothing to lose. You never know when you are getting an FGC team that is going to play at a very high level. Georgetown never knew what hit them. Unfortunately for Goergetown the game was close at half, So Thompson kept them on their slow pace until it was too late to salvage the game.
Quote from: Vasalos on May 23, 2013, 09:12:06 PM
Hi everyone,
Just visiting. I think you have a very strong team for next year and I think the Big East will be a great conference. Your RPI will be very strong because the competition in your conference will be very strong. I do my own bracketology and I think you win the Big East next year. Good luck with your season.
www.explorertownbracketologist.com
Something tells me DePaul, Providence, and Seton Hall got the same message.
Quote from: MUHoopsFan2 on May 23, 2013, 09:05:05 PM
What?????????? What are you...lol, this is crazy. You won't have to worry about scoring with this group. I have no idea what in the world you are talking. That will be their strength this year.
The guys who left can't score! You got beat by Cuse' because it was a bad matchup to play them at that juncture in the Tournament.
When you beat Butler and Miami, you can score. But next year you will have to guard them. And if they get the system down look out.
I don't think many of you know or realize how big DEPTH and having a bench of switchables is.
There is no way you can defend that if all the guys have around the same ability and are locked in like this team seems to be. That is why Lousiville won it all.
If they stay healthy with key players in Buzz's 9-10 man rotation and really jell as a unit this team will wear you down!
Impossible to defend or contend on the college level with so many teams different from year to year.
Sorry, I do not buy that we do not need to worry about scoring for next year. And this post is referring to the returnees--not the newbies. They will need to score, at least two averaging 8 plus points per game.
What evidence do you have about the returnee scoring that makes you so confident?
I already addressed Ox and Wilson as key scorers. Look at the rest:
De. Wilson: what is his career average-maybe 2 PPG
Anderson: maybe 4 ppg
Otule: after 5 years, maybe 5 ppg. And if he improves significantly in scoring, it will be at expense of Gardner minutes, unless Buzz wises up and plays Gardner at PF
Thomas: 2ppg
Taylor: hopefully we get 8 ppg next year.
I simply do not see Anderson, Otule and De. Wilson as competent to consistently score next year.
Quote from: willie warrior on May 24, 2013, 09:26:07 AM
Sorry, I do not buy that we do not need to worry about scoring for next year. And this post is referring to the returnees--not the newbies. They will need to score, at least two averaging 8 plus points per game.
What evidence do you have about the returnee scoring that makes you so confident?
I already addressed Ox and Wilson as key scorers. Look at the rest:
De. Wilson: what is his career average-maybe 2 PPG
Anderson: maybe 4 ppg
Otule: after 5 years, maybe 5 ppg. And if he improves significantly in scoring, it will be at expense of Gardner minutes, unless Buzz wises up and plays Gardner at PF
Thomas: 2ppg
Taylor: hopefully we get 8 ppg next year.
I simply do not see Anderson, Otule and De. Wilson as competent to consistently score next year.
What BE PF is Gardner going to guard? MU would need to go 2-3 zone if Gardner and Otule are on the floor at the same time.
I think we will have a zone defense team and a pressing defense team and Buzz will continuly alternate between the two to mix opposing team up. As soon as they appear to get confortable against the zone you hit them with the supper quick team and vice versa.
I hope JJJ has that "killer instinct". That will be the making of a MU superstar.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 24, 2013, 08:25:01 AM
If they played Davidson 10 games, they would beat them 8 or 9 times. I never said that they would have to repeat the last minute comeback every time.
Wow, Davidson was in complete control of that game for 38 minutes. It was their game to lose, fortunately for us they did. I have a hard time thinking that we'd beat them 5 out of ten times.
Would you say that Miami would have beaten MU 8 or 9 times out of ten?
Quote from: LittleMurs on May 25, 2013, 10:04:01 AM
Wow, Davidson was in complete control of that game for 38 minutes. It was their game to lose, fortunately for us they did. I have a hard time thinking that we'd beat them 5 out of ten times.
Well, I apparently have more faith than you do.
Quote from: LittleMurs on May 25, 2013, 10:04:01 AM
Would you say that Miami would have beaten MU 8 or 9 times out of ten?
Oh hell no. Marquette throttled them.
Butler would be a 50/50 proposition though.
Quote from: LittleMurs on May 25, 2013, 10:04:01 AM
Wow, Davidson was in complete control of that game for 38 minutes. It was their game to lose, fortunately for us they did. I have a hard time thinking that we'd beat them 5 out of ten times.
Would you say that Miami would have beaten MU 8 or 9 times out of ten?
We matched up well against Miami, we'd beat them more times than we'd bear davidson out of ten. The thing is though I feel like we'd have had better luck against davidson when they aren't playing in the tournament as if they have nothing to lose.
Quote from: LittleMurs on May 25, 2013, 10:04:01 AM
Wow, Davidson was in complete control of that game for 38 minutes. It was their game to lose, fortunately for us they did. I have a hard time thinking that we'd beat them 5 out of ten times.
Would you say that Miami would have beaten MU 8 or 9 times out of ten?
We shot 10 percentage points below our season average FG % against Davidson.
If we had shot at our average, we'd have made about 6 more baskets. You do the math.
Coaches tend to go conservative in NCAA tournament, which is what gets the higher ranked team in trouble.