1st ballot hall of famer or not?
I think he is. He was the best player on one of the most dominant defenses of the last decade, 8 time pro bowler, and 2005 Defensive Player of the Year. His sideline to sideline speed was unmatched at his position, and he led his team to a SuperBowl with Rex Grossman at quarterback.
thoughts?
No. Only four playoff years, where the Bears where 3-4 in games. Honestly, he was a first ballot player under Jauron who employed a big nose tackle to protect him, but Lovie's defense hid him and exposed him at the same time (against the run), and made him partisan compared to his talents.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2013, 08:22:58 PM
No. Only four playoff years, where the Bears where 3-4 in games. Honestly, he was a first ballot player under Jauron who employed a big nose tackle to protect him, but Lovie's defense hid him and exposed him at the same time (against the run), and made him partisan compared to his talents.
Are we talking about the same Lovie Smith defensive scheme that won him the Defensive Player of the Year award in 2005? Also, I don't think you can blame the playoff losses on Urlacher, he never had an competent offense to work with. I know he slowed down a bit in his last 2 years, but in his prime this guy was a destructive force.
Quote from: flash on May 22, 2013, 08:32:20 PM
Are we talking about the same Lovie Smith defensive scheme that won him the Defensive Player of the Year award in 2005? Also, I don't think you can blame the playoff losses on Urlacher, he never had an competent offense to work with. I know he slowed down a bit in his last 2 years, but in his prime this guy was a destructive force.
Yes, the bend but don't break defense with so few playoff appearances that hid Urlacher behind it and took him out of attack mode with his great lateral speed. Not blaming Urlacher for Lovie, but it and the offensive performance also takes him out of first ballot consideration.
Lock for Hall of Fame, probably not first ballot since the murderer will be inducted that year seeing as he retired this year as well.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 22, 2013, 10:00:07 PM
Lock for Hall of Fame, probably not first ballot since the murderer will be inducted that year seeing as he retired this year as well.
I forgot Ray Lewis retired this year too.... definitely hurts Urlacher's chances of first ballot.
A lot of very good players didn't get in on the 1st ballot for the pro football HOF, although I'm not sure if there are many people that even know if players got in on the 1st ballot or not. Since the voting rules are a little goofy and vote totals aren't disclosed, it doesn't seem to be nearly as big of a deal/well-know to make it on the first ballot for football as it is for baseball. I don't think Urlacher will make it on the 1st ballot, as there always seems to be a backlog of good players that are waiting to get in (Tim Brown, Will Shields, Steve Atwater currently for example).
I think hes a lock for the Hall probably first ballot. Only one of four people to have 20 INTs and 40 sacks in a career. The leading tackler in Bears history, more than even names like Butkis and Singletary and I know this doesnt usually influence the hall but he was a freak of nature. A guy his size should not have been as fast as he was.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2013, 08:22:58 PM
made him partisan compared to his talents.
I believe it also made him seem pedestrian
Quote from: keefe on May 23, 2013, 01:08:04 AM
I believe it also made him seem pedestrian
My point wasn't he was average as he definitely has HOF numbers, but that he became one of Lovie's systems guys, whom he defended to the core, but whose system held him back from from utilizing his full athletic abilty like a Ray Lewis. Singletary had less overall athletic talent, still played within a system, but his star power excelled within it. Dropping back your best pass rusher for many years and quickest left to right athlete 20-30 yards to cover your third option back or tight end, held back his skills. But, he played his role under the vaunted Lovie Cover 2, and defended its architect who should have utilized his star power within it. IMO, that held him back from being a first ballot entry as he had Lawrence Taylor freakish athletic ability. A great local star still but not that elite, legendary player.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 23, 2013, 05:52:42 AM
My point wasn't he was average as he definitely has HOF numbers, but that he became one of Lovie's systems guys, whom he defended to the core, but whose system held him back from from utilizing his full athletic abilty like a Ray Lewis. Singletary had less overall athletic talent, still played within a system, but his star power excelled within it. Dropping back your best pass rusher for many years and quickest left to right athlete 20-30 yards to cover your third option back or tight end, held back his skills. But, he played his role under the vaunted Lovie Cover 2, and defended its architect who should have utilized his star power within it. IMO, that held him back from being a first ballot entry as he had Lawrence Taylor freakish athletic ability. A great local star still but not that elite, legendary player.
I by an large will agree with you regarding the Cover 2.
But Brian Urlacher was WAY better than Mike Singletary. IMO there was no player that benefited more from the talent around him than Singletary. A great defensive line in front of him, and two very good LBs on either side of him. He didn't have to do much to have an impact. Put it this way...Urlacher could have easily replicated what Singletary did and probably done more due to his speed. Not a chance that Singletary could have done what Urlacher did.
He's not "elite," and he's not first-ballot due to Lewis retiring, but he is a HOFer.
One thing that will hold him back is the fact that he never earned a Super Bowl ring. I contrast that with the fact that he played a defensive position that gets significant recognition typically. I think he HOF worthy but I like to reserve 'first ballot' consideration for guys that are among the truly historic greats. Brian is not in that group in my view and I've watched his entire career.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 22, 2013, 08:22:58 PM
No. Only four playoff years, where the Bears where 3-4 in games. Honestly, he was a first ballot player under Jauron who employed a big nose tackle to protect him, but Lovie's defense hid him and exposed him at the same time (against the run), and made him partisan compared to his talents.
Under Jauron: 64 games, 506 tackles (7.9/game), 1.0 FF, 1.3 FR, 5.3 sacks/season, 1.5 INT/season
Under Lovie: 118 games, 847 tackles (7.2/game), 0.8 FF, 1.7 FR, 2.3 sacks/season and 1.8 INT/season
Really the only thing that the Cover-2 did was take away Urlacher as a pass-rusher because it stressed pressure from the front four. He had 5 sacks in '07, 4 sacks '10 but none in '06, '08, '09 (1 game), '11 and '12.
He's likely not going to be a first ballot HOF because of Lewis, but he'll still get in and go down as one of the top 10 MLBs ever.
Sultan, agree with your assessment on Singletary but arguing the system and personnel made Singletary as it kept him in his box where his decision making and skills best fit. That defense was as dominant as any ever. And Lovie's system took his big play player away from what he did best.
Merritt, not arguing the stats or the recognition. Urlacher made a ton of tackles or interceptions downfield on receivers in front of him, not in the backfield or laterally at the line of scrimmage. Jauron had 320 pound tackles in front of him protecting him....and allowing him to range. Lovie had 275 pound tackles in front of him, in an age of 300 pound + offensive lineman, allowing the center to go right at him. Urlacher was a big play guy, and should have been freed up to roam. Think Clay Matthews.
In that Bears Super Bowl, Rex sucked, but that defense could not make the big stop. Ray Lewis and the Ravens could carry a mediocre offense. That is first ballot.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 23, 2013, 09:02:29 AM
Sultan, agree with your assessment on Singletary but arguing the system and personnel made Singletary as it kept him in his box where his decision making and skills best fit. That defense was as dominant as any ever. And Lovie's system took his big play player away from what he did best.
Merritt, not arguing the stats or the recognition. Urlacher made a ton of tackles or interceptions downfield on receivers in front of him, not in the backfield or laterally at the line of scrimmage. Jauron had 320 pound tackles in front of him protecting him....and allowing him to range. Lovie had 275 pound tackles in front of him, in an age of 300 pound + offensive lineman, allowing the center to go right at him. Urlacher was a big play guy, and should have been freed up to roam. Think Clay Matthews.
In that Bears Super Bowl, Rex sucked, but that defense could not make the big stop. Ray Lewis and the Ravens could carry a mediocre offense. That is first ballot.
The Bears' D was better under Lovie than under Jauron. Urlacher made more big plays under Jauron, but he was an ideal fit at MLB in the Cover-2. Matthews is a great pass-rusher but that's all he does. Urlacher is twice the all-around LB.
I must have missed the part of Super Bowl XXXV when the Ravens turned the ball over 5 times (including a pick-6) against a Peyton Manning-led offense yet Lewis carried them to victory anyway. Do I think Lewis was better than Urlacher? Yes, I do, but if the Bears' offense was even mediocre in the SB, they would have won. The D forced 3 TOs, held the Colts' offense to 22 points, and shut Peyton out for the final 18:16 of the game. No defense is good enough to win a SB if the O turns it over 5 times.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 23, 2013, 09:35:57 AM
es, I do but if the Bears' offense was even mediocre in the SB, they would have won. They D forced 3 TOs, held the Colts' offense to 22 points, and shut Peyton out for the final 18:16 of the game. No defense is good enough to win a SB if the O turns it over 5 times.
And the special teams even contributed a touchdown.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 23, 2013, 09:35:57 AM
The Bears' D was better under Lovie than under Jauron. Urlacher made more big plays under Jauron, but he was an ideal fit at MLB in the Cover-2. Matthews is a great pass-rusher but that's all he does. Urlacher is twice the all-around LB.
I must have missed the part of Super Bowl XXXV when the Ravens turned the ball over 5 times (including a pick-6) against a Peyton Manning-led offense yet Lewis carried them to victory anyway. Do I think Lewis was better than Urlacher? Yes, I do, but if the Bears' offense was even mediocre in the SB, they would have won. The D forced 3 TOs, held the Colts' offense to 22 points, and shut Peyton out for the final 18:16 of the game. No defense is good enough to win a SB if the O turns it over 5 times.
In a torrential rain storm, the vaunted Bears defense lost time of possession 38:04 to 21:56, even with a pick 6 as one of those 5 turnovers. The Colts also had three turnovers in the slop. The Bears defensive line had a paltry 11 tackles out of 71 in that game, where the Colts hardly vaunted running game ran for 191 yards, and Manning was 25-38 all in a tropical storm. The Bears and Urlacher were making tackles downfield all game...and the system was beaten by the coach who helped make it famous, Tony Dungy.
Lovie's defense was built for the parity NFL. Bend, be efficient, and eventually the offense will make a mistake. Overall, it was better than Jauron's. But, Jauron's allowed Urlacher to be dominating, something that Lovie's system never allowed, but the Packer's defense allows Matthews to do or Parcell's defense allowed LT to do: Letting their stars dominate.
Again, not arguing Urlacher's greatness, just the first ballot. I have yet to hear why he deserves it, Lewis on the ballot or not.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 23, 2013, 10:03:17 AM
In a torrential rain storm, the vaunted Bears defense lost time of possession 38:04 to 21:56, even with a pick 6 as one of those 5 turnovers. The Colts also had three turnovers in the slop. The Bears defensive line had a paltry 11 tackles out of 71 in that game, where the Colts hardly vaunted running game ran for 191 yards, and Manning was 25-38 all in a tropical storm. The Bears and Urlacher were making tackles downfield all game...and the system was beaten by the coach who helped make it famous, Tony Dungy.
Lovie's defense was built for the parity NFL. Bend, be efficient, and eventually the offense will make a mistake. Overall, it was better than Jauron's. But, Jauron's allowed Urlacher to be dominating, something that Lovie's system never allowed, but the Packer's defense allows Matthews to do or Parcell's defense allowed LT to do: Letting their stars dominate.
Again, not arguing Urlacher's greatness, just the first ballot. I have yet to hear why he deserves it, Lewis on the ballot or not.
Like you said, the Cover-2 is designed to bend but not break. The Colts got into the redzone 5 times and came away with 1 TD, 3 FGs and a missed FG. That's 15 points (botched the PAT) on 5 redzone trips. That will win a lot of games.
Time of possession? Really? Hester ran back the opening kick for a TD so the Colts got the ball 14 seconds into the game, plus they had the last possession of the first half (after a Grossman fumble) and then the first of the third quarter. That adds up. Plus, the Bears' O didn't have a drive of longer than 2:22. Is that the D's fault?
Anyway, I believe that a player should be a first ballot HOFer if he was one of the best players in the league (on his side of the ball in football) over an extended period of time (7-10 years). So tell me, who was a better defender than Urlacher from 2000-2010?
Ray Lewis. Ed Reed? Warren Sapp? Derrick Brooks?
Not quite lining up the years but HOFers playing (some at tail end) during his time besides your mentions: Freeney, Strahan, Polamalu, Green, Woodson, Smith. Repeated winners and long time performers and big time playmakers (my first ballot criteria).
Add in Peppers, Randle, Doleman, Seau to yours and you have Urlacher, IMO.
There was some chatter about Urlacher talking to the Vikes. Did that ever take place before the retirement was announced?
that was him posturing trying to get the Bears to cough up a contract in fear of Urlacher pulling a Favre move in the division
I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that Brian Urlacher was really good, but not a first ballot HOF player.
Quote from: Red Stripe on May 23, 2013, 12:29:41 PM
that was him posturing trying to get the Bears to cough up a contract in fear of Urlacher pulling a Favre move in the division
I'm sure he got some offers...but likely of the two-year, near veteran minimum, and "a signing bonus that doesn't embarrass you too much" variety.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 23, 2013, 05:52:42 AM
My point wasn't he was average as he definitely has HOF numbers, but that he became one of Lovie's systems guys, whom he defended to the core, but whose system held him back from from utilizing his full athletic abilty like a Ray Lewis. Singletary had less overall athletic talent, still played within a system, but his star power excelled within it. Dropping back your best pass rusher for many years and quickest left to right athlete 20-30 yards to cover your third option back or tight end, held back his skills. But, he played his role under the vaunted Lovie Cover 2, and defended its architect who should have utilized his star power within it. IMO, that held him back from being a first ballot entry as he had Lawrence Taylor freakish athletic ability. A great local star still but not that elite, legendary player.
Singletary, Nitschke, Butkus are a cut above.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on May 23, 2013, 12:08:50 PM
Not quite lining up the years but HOFers playing (some at tail end) during his time besides your mentions: Freeney, Strahan, Polamalu, Green, Woodson, Smith. Repeated winners and long time performers and big time playmakers (my first ballot criteria).
Add in Peppers, Randle, Doleman, Seau to yours and you have Urlacher, IMO.
Interesting list. IMO, Peppers and Randle were superior players to Freeney and Strahan. I've also long been of the belief that Polamalu is vastly overrated. He's a media darling and, sure, he occasionally makes big plays but also gets burned on big plays a lot because he's a gambler.
Darrell Green, Rod Woodson, Bruce Smith. Tough to argue with those.
Sam Huff, Tommy Nobis, Bill George.
Quote from: ATWizJr on May 23, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
Sam Huff, Tommy Nobis, Bill George.
None of these three were better than Urlacher...even when compensating for their era.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 23, 2013, 09:35:57 AM
Matthews is a great pass-rusher but that's all he does. Urlacher is twice the all-around LB.
Based on what criteria?
Over their first 4 years Matthews blows away Urlacher in sacks as that's what he is asked to do in the Packers scheme, while Urlacher blows away Matthews in tackles as that's what he was asked to do in the Bears scheme. They are very similar in other statistics (forced fumbles, fumbles recovered, interceptions, passes defensed).
Quote from: ATWizJr on May 23, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
Sam Huff, Tommy Nobis, Bill George.
Willie Lanier, Chuck Bednarik, Jack Lambert.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 23, 2013, 08:04:34 AM
I by an large will agree with you regarding the Cover 2.
But Brian Urlacher was WAY better than Mike Singletary. IMO there was no player that benefited more from the talent around him than Singletary. A great defensive line in front of him, and two very good LBs on either side of him. He didn't have to do much to have an impact. Put it this way...Urlacher could have easily replicated what Singletary did and probably done more due to his speed. Not a chance that Singletary could have done what Urlacher did.
He's not "elite," and he's not first-ballot due to Lewis retiring, but he is a HOFer.
+1.
Mike Singletary wasn't even one of the top 3 players on the '85 defense. He was a good player, but his legend is in the eyes, not the on-field talent.
Quote from: jmayer1 on May 23, 2013, 02:45:31 PM
Based on what criteria?
Over their first 4 years Matthews blows away Urlacher in sacks as that's what he is asked to do in the Packers scheme, while Urlacher blows away Matthews in tackles as that's what he was asked to do in the Bears scheme. They are very similar in other statistics (forced fumbles, fumbles recovered, interceptions, passes defensed).
Based on the criteria that Urlacher does every else better than Matthews.
Quote from: jmayer1 on May 23, 2013, 02:45:31 PM
Based on what criteria?
Over their first 4 years Matthews blows away Urlacher in sacks as that's what he is asked to do in the Packers scheme, while Urlacher blows away Matthews in tackles as that's what he was asked to do in the Bears scheme. They are very similar in other statistics (forced fumbles, fumbles recovered, interceptions, passes defensed).
As a Packers fan, I can't believe you are making this comparison. Why not just start comparing Ronnie Lott to Darrelle Revis too?
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 23, 2013, 03:03:11 PM
Based on the criteria that Urlacher does every else better than Matthews.
Except rush the quarterback, defend passes, force fumbles, or score defensive touchdowns. But Urlacher does everything else other than that better than Matthews.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 23, 2013, 03:36:53 PM
As a Packers fan, I can't believe you are making this comparison. Why not just start comparing Ronnie Lott to Darrelle Revis too?
Merrit started the comparison. Not sure why you would compare a cover corner to a guy known primarily as a safety.
Quote from: jmayer1 on May 23, 2013, 03:56:27 PM
Except rush the quarterback, defend passes, force fumbles, or score defensive touchdowns. But Urlacher does everything else other than that better than Matthews.
Good grief. Urlacher is one of the best linebackers of all time when defending the pass. He has 22 INTs and 85 passes defended in 13 years. Matthews has 4 INTs and 22 passes defended in four years.
Quote from: jmayer1 on May 23, 2013, 03:59:11 PM
Merrit started the comparison. Not sure why you would compare a cover corner to a guy known primarily as a safety.
Actually, Blackheart started the comparison by saying that both guys were "playmakers" but the Cover-2 took away a lot of Urlacher's big play ability.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 23, 2013, 04:24:29 PM
Actually, Blackheart started the comparison by saying that both guys were "playmakers" but the Cover-2 took away a lot of Urlacher's big play ability.
Agree....my point is Lovie made Urlacher a glorified Middle Linebacker Safety, which the stats show he did with HOF numbers. My other main point is I feel he would have been a first ballot HOFer in a system that put him in play more often at the line of scrimmage like Matthews. Would love to see tackles for no gain/loss for these greats, and maybe that would clarify things.
Btw, the Urlacher Bears were 6-18 versus their main division rival, without much pressure being applied on the opposing QB's (and yes, with crappy Bear offenses). Ugh...
Quote from: ATWizJr on May 23, 2013, 01:53:35 PM
Sam Huff, Tommy Nobis, Bill George.
Tom
Back in the day Tommy Nobis was an animal. It is a sin he has not made his way to Canton. He won the Outland and Maxwell and was named to SI's All-Century Team.
Funniest joke I heard on this topic: Jay Cutler threw a retirement party for Brian Urlacher. It was intercepted and returned for a touchdown.
Quote from: Terror Skink on May 23, 2013, 02:06:01 PM
None of these three were better than Urlacher...even when compensating for their era.
ah, youth.
Quote from: keefe on May 24, 2013, 01:15:43 PM
Ah, close-minded bliss
Its not closed minded. Those guys were great for their age. They wouldn't last two seconds in the NFL of today. Today, the best athletes in the world play football. Back in the early years of the NFL (Pre-1970s) you can't say the same thing. I realize that a lot of people like to remember the 'glory years' of football as tough and gritty... they were; but you can't compare the competition from early football to the players of today.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 24, 2013, 02:28:02 PM
Its not closed minded. Those guys were great for their age. They wouldn't last two seconds in the NFL of today. Today, the best athletes in the world play football. Back in the early years of the NFL (Pre-1970s) you can't say the same thing. I realize that a lot of people like to remember the 'glory years' of football as tough and gritty... they were; but you can't compare the competition from early football to the players of today.
Rather obtuse thinking. Capt Robin Olds became a double ace flying P-38's and P-52's in WWII. He later became a triple ace flying Phantoms in Vietnam. Same pilot, different eras. He adapted to advances in technology, war fighting doctrine, and combat tactics. I am confident that Ray Nitschke would have embraced advances in sports technology, medicine, training, and diet and been the same stellar competitor.
I'm not a Bears fan and never have rooted for Urlacher. However, I do acknowledge his skills. It certainly shouldn't be held against him that Lovie Smith created a defense to best take advantage of his strengths. Maximizing personnel to put each player in the best position to succeed is a coach's No. 1 job. To say that should minimize Urlacher's legacy is like saying Lawrence Taylor wasn't an all-time great because Parcells put him in position to get lots of sacks. The player still has to deliver, and, when healthy, Urlacher did.
As for players of yesteryear being able to compete today, certainly many couldn't have because of size, speed or other disadvantages. Offensive linemen spring to mind; not all that long ago, those guys used to play at 220-260 pounds.
Still, folks should be careful when making generalizations. If you think Jim Brown and Dick Butkus wouldn't excel right now, you don't know a thing about sports. In addition, maybe a great yesteryear lineman such as Ron Yary (a 255-pound OT for the Vikings in the 60s and 70s) would have incorporated today's training techniques to be a fast, agile 315-pounder.
Quote from: MU82 on May 27, 2013, 01:35:22 PM.
As for players of yesteryear being able to compete today, certainly many couldn't have because of size, speed or other disadvantages. Offensive linemen spring to mind; not all that long ago, those guys used to play at 220-260 pounds.
Still, folks should be careful when making generalizations. If you think Jim Brown and Dick Butkus wouldn't excel right now, you don't know a thing about sports. In addition, maybe a great yesteryear lineman such as Ron Yary (a 255-pound OT for the Vikings in the 60s and 70s) would have incorporated today's training techniques to be a fast, agile 315-pounder.
My friend Keith Bishop was John Elway's LT (in fact his son is named John Elway Bishop!) When Keith got to the NFL his playing weight ballooned to 280 and he was lifting 50% more than he ever did before. After he retired his weight dropped significantly and he now weighs around 220. Keith did what every lineman began doing in the '80's and continue to do today. The dramatic increase in size and speed is attributable to advances in training, technology, sports medicine, diet, and "supplements." Of these the most effective was the latter, especially when synchronized with all of those other factors.
The guys who played ball before the '80's would also experience increases in size, speed, stamina, and agility is afforded the same advantages of contemporary athletes. We should not be naïve about this.
My neighbor played on the DL for the undefeated Miami team and, if you saw him today, I doubt he goes 220.
Quote from: elephantraker on May 27, 2013, 04:34:16 PM
My neighbor played on the DL for the undefeated Miami team and, if you saw him today, I doubt he goes 220.
Amazing how the "candy" inflates your numbers...